March 26, 2024 • 26 mins
Pull a seat up at The Copy Table (welcome back!). This time, Grace Fortune and Nicole Morton put Erin Pennings back in the hot (but still comfy) seat to discover how she uses her secret sauce in her business . In this episode, we get into:
- How Erin discovered her superpowers and helps her clients become magnetic with her marketing framework and methodology.
- The nitty-gritty of Erin's framework: the REACH Visibility Trajectory™.
- Erin's superpowers: taking her experiences from past roles and using them in her copywriting approach and business structure.
- How Erin's Olympic-gymnast-level flexibility makes creating custom marketing solutions for her clients easier and makes the "yes!" so much easier.
- Erin's journey from 1:1 service provider to course creator.
The takeaway? There really is no one right way to build a copywriting business you love! Whether you need actionable tips to market your copywriting business, a push to raise your rates, or the courage to plant your flag in a new niche, we've got you covered. Over the years, we've met some extraordinary people who've helped us, and we're ready to help you avoid the pitfalls that so many copywriters find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the copy table, the podcast for copywriters who want to get new ideas and inspiration for building and scaling a business you love.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
In this podcast, hosts great fortune Nicole Morton and Erin Pennings bring new topics and guests to the table every single episode.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
We're spilling the beans on how you can use your interests and expertise to define what success means to you and take steps to achieve it. Welcome back to the copy table. Today, we're turning the spotlight on Erin Pennings, and we're taking a deep dive into her copywriting business. We're going to go behind the scenes to see how Erin developed her approach to copywriting, found her audience, and unlocked her secret sauce. And we can't wait to dive in as Nicole and I interview her. So, Erin, how you feeling?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
It's always interesting being in the hot seat, even when it's a very riendly seat indeed.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Absolutely. All right, let's dig right into it. I'm really excited to interview you. All right, so, rapid fire. Question number one. What is your secret sauce?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
My secret sauce? It's interesting. I always tell everyone that their secret sauce is the amalgamation of all the things you've done to this point. In fact, I always say all roads have led you to this point. And people look at me sideways when they see my list of things that I've done. I always jokes when I introduce myself, when I'm speaking, like, and this is the list of things I've done. And it reads more like two truths than a lie, because surely someone hasn't done all their stuff, only it's more like two truths and maybe like, 14 lies. Have you really wrangled alligators? Surprisingly, yes, I have, but that was not a job. And wrangling is maybe another state. Oh, my goodness. I held an alligator, but that's a story for another time.
(01:55):
As far as that's my secret sauce, to try to point us back here, is that everything that I've done, whether it's like working at a helicopter base, whether it's managing products and programs for a travel company, I took pieces and parts out of all of those things that I've brought forward into the way I serve clients and to the way that I build my business, the way I structure my business, internal operations, external delivery, all of that thing. So when I think about my secret sauce, it's really all the things I've seen that have worked really well, the things that I don't want to be and the things that I do want to be that have kind of led me to this point. How do you define that. That's hard, because clearly I can't do that after working in five minutes of wrangling alligators.
(02:37):
I guess you could say that what I talk about is my secret sauce. What I talk about as my methodology is the reach visibility trajectory. And both of you actually got a front seat to me building that, because when I first joined think tank, I was like, I need to do all these things. And then it was like, okay, so step one, I have to revamp my proposals. Oh, wait. Before I can do that, I have to have a framework. And before I do that, I have to know what I want to be when I grow up, or at least have an inkling of a plan that I'm willing to work towards for now. So all of that came into play, and then it was like, what is my approach?
(03:14):
And I realized it's not a ven diagram, even though I talk about ven diagrams an awful lot. But a lot of people, when you see their frameworks, it's like, the one side is this, the bottom is this, and you're in the middle. And that's not really something that fit my approach. And I tried. I tried desperately, because I was like, well, it's really more about the way that we work together. And so we come in, and it's very foundational, and it's like all the things you do, again, build together. It's like they don't necessarily lead you to the point where you are now because you're looking to build the map, but they work together. And it's the cycle of do your research. Figure out your messaging. Create, copy, drive people to it.
(03:59):
And I brought it to Nicole, and I think it was like a series of concentric circles. And she's like, nope, that's not it. That's not it at all. It's an arrow. And I was, huh? And so it really is, as your visibility goes up and as you're reaching the right audience, your sales will increase. And so the reachability trajectory is about the research. The messaging. R is for research, e is for engage with messaging, bringing your business together with your customers wants. And then it's all about the copy and creating the funnels. And I guess I'm getting off track, but a is attract for website copy. C is to create the funnel, and H is to hook with this ongoing content strategy. And does everyone come through all the steps with me? Absolutely not. Some people start in the middle.
(04:43):
Some people, we keep going well into the H and beyond to the point. Sometimes we go back to the research to launch their next offer to refine their business as they grow. And it's like an upward curly cue almost, where you keep circling back to keep refining as the market or your business changes.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
I think that was a great explanation of it. And I really like how it looks like a never ending, like you said, concentric circle, because as you know, every time you make a small pivot in your business, you're almost starting from the R all over again, right? Because you want to make sure that you're doing it the proper way and then connecting it to all your messaging and content that you're putting out into the world. That's fantastic. So how did this lead you to your business now? How did you develop this trajectory? Framework?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
The framework really was me looking at all the projects that I like to do, the projects that I want more of, and figuring out how to work people into that. And it's like, so what does the process look like? I'm super process driven back to that list of two truths and a lie. I spent three years in the design agency as a traffic manager. I was also their copywriter, although we didn't call me a copywriter at that point because it was just like, hey, someone needs to write something. Erin, you're up. And I was almost always up. It's super process driven. So if design is process driven, you work your way back from the goal to build a timeline, and that's something that has really come forward into what I do.
(06:04):
So it made sense to me then that my framework would also be process driven. Here's how we work together. And when you can show people that you have a process that builds this huge credibility, because it's not just like this person standing out here in the middle of the field going, I've built it, will you come? And you're like, what have you built? And you're like, well, I haven't built it yet, but I'm going to build it, and you're going to love it. And they're going to be like, well, how is it going to work? And asking all of these questions, and if you're able to answer that right up front before they even have them, if you're able to answer the questions that they don't even know they have yet, they have that much more trust in you.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I want to really quick, you glossed over it, but I want to circle back to, I built my process from the projects that I like to work on. Talk to me about that process of identifying, because bless the generalists, right. They're the swiss army knife of our industry. But you can niche by deliverable. You can niche by industry. You can niche by your position in the funnel. But to just be real with yourself about what lights you up, I think it's so radical, and it shouldn't be. So I want to hear you talk about that more.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Well, and you may not have meant that to be a trick question, but it is a little bit. I really like website copy, and I really like brand messaging, but I also really like the launch phase. And I also really like this content strategy phase. And because I have grown up in the agency world, I've written a lot of things for a lot of people in a lot of industries. So I can be that swiss army knife, and I enjoy doing it for specific clients. But there's a but they have to have worked with me on a way to figure out how we're talking about the thing. It could be a 1 hour brand strategy workshop first to figure it out. But it's very hard to come into something with this blank slate. Blank slates are no bueno.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
So generally speaking, people come to me, starting with brand messaging or website copy. And generally speaking, if they start with website copy, we're also adding in brand messaging to the front of it so we can speak to it in a coherent fashion. And I really like those two. But I wanted to have a way to keep working with people through the different phases of their site, which is why it was like, it's not just the rea visibility trajectory, it's the reach, because it's like, cool. How can we launch this? How can we add a funnel to what you're already doing? How can we then maybe tweak this thing that we've already done together, your website copy, based on this new information?
(08:52):
And I like a blend of projects and a blend of ongoing relationships because it feels really good to make an impact on people and to see how it actually comes to fruition and does big things for them.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Let's walk through a day in the life of Erin. How do you apply this trajectory and your secret sauce to your business? Getting into specific day to day things that you do?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Gosh, that's a really good question. So one of my biggest focuses is on remaining visible, because, again, I believe that visibility leads to the sales. And if I'm not building in public, if I'm not showing you what I'm doing in public, if I'm not doing some of that research in public. If the tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound? So I have to be doing it in public in part because how are you going to get visibility on something if people don't know about it? On the other hand, it gives me this dose of accountability. Like I've said, I'm going to do this now. Watch me hold my own feet to the fire because I put it out there into the world.
(10:01):
Every time I'm getting ready to drop an offer, I am asking about it, gathering the research and putting together some of the preliminary messaging and the copy and building that funnel. And so in terms of that structure, it's always a part of it. In terms of how I do it for clients, I actually have a graphic. I have a graphic for the reach visibility trajectory, but I have a graphic that goes into all of my proposals and it has reach. And one letter is generally highlighted and it says, you are here. And you can use that as a roadmap for the coming phases that we're doing. And I don't call it phase E or phase A, but it's like, cool, we're back in the stage now. This is where we're starting out.
(10:41):
And so it allows me to create the process right into the project. Oh, hey, cool. We just wrapped your website copy. Let's talk about how you're going to drive traffic here. Now, what does that funnel look like? And sometimes it happens simultaneously, sometimes it happens after the fact. It really just depends on the project and the client. But it allows me to say, aha, you are here, and really starts to build that. It's an iterative process.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
That is so cool. I've never heard of anybody getting into the specifics of their framework in their proposal before, like mapping it out. Like, you are here. I think that's amazing. I didn't know that you did that. And I love it.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
And it's setting expectations for what the engagement is going to look like because it's so much to keep a prospect than it is to hustle for new business. So that's so smart.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Yeah, I think that's genius. And it makes it very clear this isn't like the end of the story. It's not like the wedding at the end of a romantic movie, right? There's the marriage after the fact, which everybody ignores.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Not just the honeymoon, right?
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Exactly. I love it. Okay, so next question. What do you want your prospects to come to you for?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Oh, my gosh. In the perfect world, I want people to be like, hey, we love everything that we wrote in your website, it's our favorite thing ever, and we want you to do that for us. That was really cool. Actually, the other couple of weeks ago, someone's like, so I thought I wanted this. Then I went to your website after you recommended to me, and I realized I need a whole lot of other stuff first. And I'm not 100% sure who my audience is or what the message is. Can you help? And I was like, music to my ears. And they're like, and we need website copy. And it's like, that's so much fun because it allows me to do all the pieces.
(12:44):
And I don't know about the two of you, but for me, sometimes describing messaging to a lot of people is an uphill battle. They're like, well, why do I need that? It's like, because I can write really beautiful copy. But if it's not the right message to the right audience, what's the point? They're just going to say, wow, this is beautiful, cool, and click off if it's not relevant to them. But showing people the value in that and the amount of time that really goes into it is challenging if people don't already know what it is. So every time someone comes to me and they're like, can you help us with our messaging? I'm like, I get this syrupy, cutesy little girl smile where I'm like, yes, I can. Like my precious, yes, I can.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
That's so funny. Oh, I love that. Okay, great. Okay, my next question is, so we talked about the way you want to serve one to one clients, but how has your business changed over time? Because I know that not only do you serve one to one clients, but you also, being the ambitious person that you are, you also are a course creator. You have your own course. So tell me a little bit more about how your business changed over time. How did you get to developing your own course?
Speaker 2 (14:05):
I like that you call me ambitious when it's really more that I have goldfish syndrome. And I'm like, that would be fun. Let's do this. As the boss. I have a little too much license sometimes to do that with my own business. I would say where I want to be is like one third, one third. Where it's a third done for you projects, a third, retainers. And I can tell you more about my philosophy on retainers if you want, and a third courses and workshops. And speaking for a couple of reasons, one is I feel like it's really important to continue doing the work to see what changes are happening. Because things are changing so fast, and you don't even realize how much what you do has changed if you're not constantly reflecting on it.
(14:53):
And so I don't ever want to get to the point where people come in for one one projects and they're like, this doesn't reflect the world today to ever be that dinosaur. So I want to keep doing the work, and I feel like I'm better equipped to teach it if I am still practicing it, because then I can say, look, this is what I'm seeing. These are the kinds of projects I've been working on. Oh, this might be interesting for you to consider in your own site or in your own client work. And I don't have anything concrete, and it's very hard to get specific when I don't have a specific thought in mind. But I think I look back at professors at my school when I was in college, which was not five years ago, as it turns out.
(15:33):
It was a little bit longer, and some of them had not done the field work for decades, and they were still teaching it, but it wasn't necessarily current information. And it's okay, it was still good information, but it wasn't as up to date as it could have been. I don't want to do that. I want to make sure that what I'm teaching is still the best practice that I would do for client work. And I think the way to do that is to stick with client work. With that said, I love teaching Wamp to wow, which you mentioned is my course. It's designed to help people start and finish their own website copy in 28 days, which, if you've ever tried to write your own website, it keeps getting shoved to the back burner. It's like, I'm going to do that.
(16:11):
Oh, yeah, I need to start. That I'm going to do.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I'll get to that.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
And then Friday rolls around and 16 other things come up. You're like, yeah, it didn't happen. And all of a sudden it's been six months. So one pump to wow gives you a starting point. It gives you like a prescripted start. Here, do this, try this. Shove it into the copy, and you've got a shitty first draft. And from there, having that first draft is the starting point because it's easier to edit that I'm pointing. You guys probably can't hear me pointing, but I'm pointing. Having the starting point is critical, and being able to edit is so much easier than writing from scratch. And so that's the whole goal. But it started out as an entry level way to work with me for people who maybe couldn't afford a full project but wanted to get the help.
(16:56):
And what it evolved into was being a really great resource for copywriters and coaches and other freelancers who are really good at doing for other people but have a really hard time doing it for themselves.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Yeah. To give kind of a little bit of context about Aaron's course as kind of like a gateway drug to working with took. I took bomb to like, I think it was like the very first iteration of it, wasn't it, Erin?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yeah, I think. Were you both in the first iteration?
Speaker 1 (17:27):
I was like, full disclosure, were both in.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
We were both in whomp whomp to wow. And I went through it. I used it to create my previous generation website. I'm in the middle of a rebrand right now. It was perfect for what I needed at the time, but now I'm rebranding again. It's been like two years now since this started. And I tried going through it again, but I'm like, you know what? I need more Erin. So I actually hired Erin to do an intensive of my brand new web copy. And let me tell you, this woman did in a day what I was farting around with for months. It was actually ridiculous. So that's why I say working with Erin in her course is like a gateway drug, because I know that and I trusted her. It turned out amazing.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
So thank you for that. Thank you. I'm putting that on my website. "This course is like a gateway drug for working with Erin". Maybe not. Maybe I will see, context is so a lot of people will go through it and get it to a place where they love it. And then there were a couple of people who were like, okay, I don't have the time. I've done 90% of this, but it's just not coming together. And they'll bring me in to polish it up because you're so close to it. And it's like, I like this. It's maybe not quite right, but I don't know.
(18:48):
And then all of a sudden, someone comes in, they're like, and again, the noises and the hand motions that are not going to come through very well in the podcast, but to work their magic and turn it into something that flows and tells the story you want. Yeah. So thank you. Thank you for that. That's huge.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
And it was interesting, not only, and don't discount the accountability part of it, because to have someone who is leading a group session with a very distinct timeline and knowing that it's in your best interest to keep pace with the course because what's the edit? The copy? Children have no shoes. Your own personal website copy is always going to take a backseat to client work. So it was nice to have the accountability piece of it, but also the caliber of client and student that you attracted to. Womp. It was the in the wamp community, whatever cohort that you were going in was so helpful because everyone brought their experience to the table and could help you kind of spin some of this chaff into gold again because you've been in it so can't see it anymore.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Well, and I think it's hard. That was one of my favorite parts too, was the accountability. The groups like these friends, people became my friends whether I knew them or not. It was fun. Right now, while pumptua is available, self paced. So it doesn't necessarily have the accountability, but there are some accountability options that I've built in to make it self paced in evergreen so that you can still do it. But there's some little carrots to wrap it in 30 days and there's some little carrots. When I say carrots the second time, I mean there's some emails that I've pasted out so that it's like, this is where you should be. We may not be having a call, but here are the kinds of things. This current iteration includes some co working time and a co working community that I'm part of.
(20:49):
So there's a two hour session that I host every week where people can come bring their questions. And so it's me time without being like formal group me time.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Yeah. I love that. My next question would be like, how has this shift in your business changed you as a person, do you think?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I think about this a lot, and I struggle always to put words to it, but I have become a much more competent person. I have become much less tolerant of crap. And some of the things that used to stop me before, I can see now, were just excuses. And I don't mean that in an unfeeling, unkind, not warm and fuzzy way, but the truth is, it's like if you're going to do something, you got to do it and you got to take action. And I am far better at just taking action now than I was far better at testing. And I think the more that you do uncomfortable things, positive uncomfortable things, the easier it gets to take that risk, because it's like, okay, so if this flops, what's the worst that happens, I've put some time, maybe some money into it. So what?
(21:59):
I can make more money. So what, I can try something else. I can learn from this. I think owning a business has really done a lot for me in that respect. And I just think when I used to contract for people, I was like, why do you do this way? Why are you just looking for new ways when it does work? And there's something that's really comfortable about knowing what to expect and what works, that's not what gets you ahead. What got you here doesn't get you to the next phase.
(22:28):
And I think understanding that growth, but also finding this community of people who will give you the tough love when you need it, but who will also be there to catch you and give you a big hug when maybe things don't go the way you expect, and you're like, I'm going to go work at Target. Yeah, I think that sounds good every day. So I think the friendships are probably the most important part, but also that willingness to try new things and take risks, because as someone who was chronically underpaid for a really long time, chronically underappreciated, you don't know what's out there until you try. And it's really hard to try.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
And scary.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
It's scary when you're like, oh, well, I'm barely making ends meet now. What happens if I have less looking back at that person? I wish I could tell her to start way sooner. Yeah, but where would I be if that food blog that I started writing in 2009, if I hadn't stopped it, who would I be now?
Speaker 3 (23:32):
I love that you had a food blog. I think that was actually the moment when I knew you were my people. Because as you know very well, I love cooking. I love anything food related. I have so much fun in the kitchen. And when I saw, I think in our mastermind, I think I saw you mentioned that you had a food blog, and I'm like, this is someone I need to keep talking to.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
And also, let's find another, please. Once upon a time, I really used to like to cook, and I don't hate it. Now that I have to cook for other people three times a day, it has kind of lost a lot of its shininess. But also, I had to cook everything for two years from scratch because my daughter had a dairy allergy.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
So I called myself a vegan carnivore because I had to prep everything vegan first without any dairy, any butter, anything. And then I could add the meat in.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Oh my gosh, I would be so sad without dairy, she says, sipping an iced latte. Anyway, okay, so you've touched on what you would tell past you. Is there anything else that you would tell your past self other than to.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Just start sooner, dream bigger and start sooner? Because for many of us, we got into this to replace our income or because were unemployable, because were trying to be parents and stay at home parents or had unable to go to a physical office for any number of reasons. And that made it very hard to find something that was suitable. So I knew that if I wanted my life the way I wanted it, I had to make it that way. But even then, I wasn't dreaming big enough. So I want people to challenge themselves to dream bigger because you never know what you're capable of unless you set this high, lofty, big ass goal.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Yeah, I love me a big ass goal. I'm always big on trying to be as ambitious as you're comfortable being. I always say, don't be afraid to get outside of your comfort zone. Even if it's just stepping 1ft over the line. There's 1ft. You don't necessarily have to pull vault across it. Just push yourself just a little bit every time. And I think that's a lot more palatable way to do things.
(25:51):
For sure. Thank you for that, Erin.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
So do you have anything else that you want to share with us before we close off your interview?
Speaker 2 (25:58):
I mean, I can talk for hours, so I think we're probably best served, all of us, to close out here. If anyone has questions about my structure, the way I do things, you're more than welcome to reach out.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
And also, if you need to get a website up, please do yourself a favor and check out womp because it is genuinely a very good course. And if you do the work, you will have web copy in 28 days.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
I can vouch for that. All right, well, thank you very much for listening and for being with us on this episode of the coffee table. This is Erin, Grace and Nicole signing off. Say bye, everyone. Bye.
Welcome to the copy table, the podcast for copywriters who want to get new ideas and inspiration for building and scaling a business you love.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
In this podcast, hosts great fortune Nicole Morton and Erin Pennings bring new topics and guests to the table every single episode.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
We're spilling the beans on how you can use your interests and expertise to define what success means to you and take steps to achieve it. Welcome back to the copy table. Today, we're turning the spotlight on Erin Pennings, and we're taking a deep dive into her copywriting business. We're going to go behind the scenes to see how Erin developed her approach to copywriting, found her audience, and unlocked her secret sauce. And we can't wait to dive in as Nicole and I interview her. So, Erin, how you feeling?
Speaker 2 (00:50):
It's always interesting being in the hot seat, even when it's a very riendly seat indeed.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Absolutely. All right, let's dig right into it. I'm really excited to interview you. All right, so, rapid fire. Question number one. What is your secret sauce?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
My secret sauce? It's interesting. I always tell everyone that their secret sauce is the amalgamation of all the things you've done to this point. In fact, I always say all roads have led you to this point. And people look at me sideways when they see my list of things that I've done. I always jokes when I introduce myself, when I'm speaking, like, and this is the list of things I've done. And it reads more like two truths than a lie, because surely someone hasn't done all their stuff, only it's more like two truths and maybe like, 14 lies. Have you really wrangled alligators? Surprisingly, yes, I have, but that was not a job. And wrangling is maybe another state. Oh, my goodness. I held an alligator, but that's a story for another time.
(01:55):
As far as that's my secret sauce, to try to point us back here, is that everything that I've done, whether it's like working at a helicopter base, whether it's managing products and programs for a travel company, I took pieces and parts out of all of those things that I've brought forward into the way I serve clients and to the way that I build my business, the way I structure my business, internal operations, external delivery, all of that thing. So when I think about my secret sauce, it's really all the things I've seen that have worked really well, the things that I don't want to be and the things that I do want to be that have kind of led me to this point. How do you define that. That's hard, because clearly I can't do that after working in five minutes of wrangling alligators.
(02:37):
I guess you could say that what I talk about is my secret sauce. What I talk about as my methodology is the reach visibility trajectory. And both of you actually got a front seat to me building that, because when I first joined think tank, I was like, I need to do all these things. And then it was like, okay, so step one, I have to revamp my proposals. Oh, wait. Before I can do that, I have to have a framework. And before I do that, I have to know what I want to be when I grow up, or at least have an inkling of a plan that I'm willing to work towards for now. So all of that came into play, and then it was like, what is my approach?
(03:14):
And I realized it's not a ven diagram, even though I talk about ven diagrams an awful lot. But a lot of people, when you see their frameworks, it's like, the one side is this, the bottom is this, and you're in the middle. And that's not really something that fit my approach. And I tried. I tried desperately, because I was like, well, it's really more about the way that we work together. And so we come in, and it's very foundational, and it's like all the things you do, again, build together. It's like they don't necessarily lead you to the point where you are now because you're looking to build the map, but they work together. And it's the cycle of do your research. Figure out your messaging. Create, copy, drive people to it.
(03:59):
And I brought it to Nicole, and I think it was like a series of concentric circles. And she's like, nope, that's not it. That's not it at all. It's an arrow. And I was, huh? And so it really is, as your visibility goes up and as you're reaching the right audience, your sales will increase. And so the reachability trajectory is about the research. The messaging. R is for research, e is for engage with messaging, bringing your business together with your customers wants. And then it's all about the copy and creating the funnels. And I guess I'm getting off track, but a is attract for website copy. C is to create the funnel, and H is to hook with this ongoing content strategy. And does everyone come through all the steps with me? Absolutely not. Some people start in the middle.
(04:43):
Some people, we keep going well into the H and beyond to the point. Sometimes we go back to the research to launch their next offer to refine their business as they grow. And it's like an upward curly cue almost, where you keep circling back to keep refining as the market or your business changes.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
I think that was a great explanation of it. And I really like how it looks like a never ending, like you said, concentric circle, because as you know, every time you make a small pivot in your business, you're almost starting from the R all over again, right? Because you want to make sure that you're doing it the proper way and then connecting it to all your messaging and content that you're putting out into the world. That's fantastic. So how did this lead you to your business now? How did you develop this trajectory? Framework?
Speaker 2 (05:27):
The framework really was me looking at all the projects that I like to do, the projects that I want more of, and figuring out how to work people into that. And it's like, so what does the process look like? I'm super process driven back to that list of two truths and a lie. I spent three years in the design agency as a traffic manager. I was also their copywriter, although we didn't call me a copywriter at that point because it was just like, hey, someone needs to write something. Erin, you're up. And I was almost always up. It's super process driven. So if design is process driven, you work your way back from the goal to build a timeline, and that's something that has really come forward into what I do.
(06:04):
So it made sense to me then that my framework would also be process driven. Here's how we work together. And when you can show people that you have a process that builds this huge credibility, because it's not just like this person standing out here in the middle of the field going, I've built it, will you come? And you're like, what have you built? And you're like, well, I haven't built it yet, but I'm going to build it, and you're going to love it. And they're going to be like, well, how is it going to work? And asking all of these questions, and if you're able to answer that right up front before they even have them, if you're able to answer the questions that they don't even know they have yet, they have that much more trust in you.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I want to really quick, you glossed over it, but I want to circle back to, I built my process from the projects that I like to work on. Talk to me about that process of identifying, because bless the generalists, right. They're the swiss army knife of our industry. But you can niche by deliverable. You can niche by industry. You can niche by your position in the funnel. But to just be real with yourself about what lights you up, I think it's so radical, and it shouldn't be. So I want to hear you talk about that more.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Well, and you may not have meant that to be a trick question, but it is a little bit. I really like website copy, and I really like brand messaging, but I also really like the launch phase. And I also really like this content strategy phase. And because I have grown up in the agency world, I've written a lot of things for a lot of people in a lot of industries. So I can be that swiss army knife, and I enjoy doing it for specific clients. But there's a but they have to have worked with me on a way to figure out how we're talking about the thing. It could be a 1 hour brand strategy workshop first to figure it out. But it's very hard to come into something with this blank slate. Blank slates are no bueno.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
So generally speaking, people come to me, starting with brand messaging or website copy. And generally speaking, if they start with website copy, we're also adding in brand messaging to the front of it so we can speak to it in a coherent fashion. And I really like those two. But I wanted to have a way to keep working with people through the different phases of their site, which is why it was like, it's not just the rea visibility trajectory, it's the reach, because it's like, cool. How can we launch this? How can we add a funnel to what you're already doing? How can we then maybe tweak this thing that we've already done together, your website copy, based on this new information?
(08:52):
And I like a blend of projects and a blend of ongoing relationships because it feels really good to make an impact on people and to see how it actually comes to fruition and does big things for them.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Let's walk through a day in the life of Erin. How do you apply this trajectory and your secret sauce to your business? Getting into specific day to day things that you do?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Gosh, that's a really good question. So one of my biggest focuses is on remaining visible, because, again, I believe that visibility leads to the sales. And if I'm not building in public, if I'm not showing you what I'm doing in public, if I'm not doing some of that research in public. If the tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound? So I have to be doing it in public in part because how are you going to get visibility on something if people don't know about it? On the other hand, it gives me this dose of accountability. Like I've said, I'm going to do this now. Watch me hold my own feet to the fire because I put it out there into the world.
(10:01):
Every time I'm getting ready to drop an offer, I am asking about it, gathering the research and putting together some of the preliminary messaging and the copy and building that funnel. And so in terms of that structure, it's always a part of it. In terms of how I do it for clients, I actually have a graphic. I have a graphic for the reach visibility trajectory, but I have a graphic that goes into all of my proposals and it has reach. And one letter is generally highlighted and it says, you are here. And you can use that as a roadmap for the coming phases that we're doing. And I don't call it phase E or phase A, but it's like, cool, we're back in the stage now. This is where we're starting out.
(10:41):
And so it allows me to create the process right into the project. Oh, hey, cool. We just wrapped your website copy. Let's talk about how you're going to drive traffic here. Now, what does that funnel look like? And sometimes it happens simultaneously, sometimes it happens after the fact. It really just depends on the project and the client. But it allows me to say, aha, you are here, and really starts to build that. It's an iterative process.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
That is so cool. I've never heard of anybody getting into the specifics of their framework in their proposal before, like mapping it out. Like, you are here. I think that's amazing. I didn't know that you did that. And I love it.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
And it's setting expectations for what the engagement is going to look like because it's so much to keep a prospect than it is to hustle for new business. So that's so smart.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
Yeah, I think that's genius. And it makes it very clear this isn't like the end of the story. It's not like the wedding at the end of a romantic movie, right? There's the marriage after the fact, which everybody ignores.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Not just the honeymoon, right?
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Exactly. I love it. Okay, so next question. What do you want your prospects to come to you for?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Oh, my gosh. In the perfect world, I want people to be like, hey, we love everything that we wrote in your website, it's our favorite thing ever, and we want you to do that for us. That was really cool. Actually, the other couple of weeks ago, someone's like, so I thought I wanted this. Then I went to your website after you recommended to me, and I realized I need a whole lot of other stuff first. And I'm not 100% sure who my audience is or what the message is. Can you help? And I was like, music to my ears. And they're like, and we need website copy. And it's like, that's so much fun because it allows me to do all the pieces.
(12:44):
And I don't know about the two of you, but for me, sometimes describing messaging to a lot of people is an uphill battle. They're like, well, why do I need that? It's like, because I can write really beautiful copy. But if it's not the right message to the right audience, what's the point? They're just going to say, wow, this is beautiful, cool, and click off if it's not relevant to them. But showing people the value in that and the amount of time that really goes into it is challenging if people don't already know what it is. So every time someone comes to me and they're like, can you help us with our messaging? I'm like, I get this syrupy, cutesy little girl smile where I'm like, yes, I can. Like my precious, yes, I can.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
That's so funny. Oh, I love that. Okay, great. Okay, my next question is, so we talked about the way you want to serve one to one clients, but how has your business changed over time? Because I know that not only do you serve one to one clients, but you also, being the ambitious person that you are, you also are a course creator. You have your own course. So tell me a little bit more about how your business changed over time. How did you get to developing your own course?
Speaker 2 (14:05):
I like that you call me ambitious when it's really more that I have goldfish syndrome. And I'm like, that would be fun. Let's do this. As the boss. I have a little too much license sometimes to do that with my own business. I would say where I want to be is like one third, one third. Where it's a third done for you projects, a third, retainers. And I can tell you more about my philosophy on retainers if you want, and a third courses and workshops. And speaking for a couple of reasons, one is I feel like it's really important to continue doing the work to see what changes are happening. Because things are changing so fast, and you don't even realize how much what you do has changed if you're not constantly reflecting on it.
(14:53):
And so I don't ever want to get to the point where people come in for one one projects and they're like, this doesn't reflect the world today to ever be that dinosaur. So I want to keep doing the work, and I feel like I'm better equipped to teach it if I am still practicing it, because then I can say, look, this is what I'm seeing. These are the kinds of projects I've been working on. Oh, this might be interesting for you to consider in your own site or in your own client work. And I don't have anything concrete, and it's very hard to get specific when I don't have a specific thought in mind. But I think I look back at professors at my school when I was in college, which was not five years ago, as it turns out.
(15:33):
It was a little bit longer, and some of them had not done the field work for decades, and they were still teaching it, but it wasn't necessarily current information. And it's okay, it was still good information, but it wasn't as up to date as it could have been. I don't want to do that. I want to make sure that what I'm teaching is still the best practice that I would do for client work. And I think the way to do that is to stick with client work. With that said, I love teaching Wamp to wow, which you mentioned is my course. It's designed to help people start and finish their own website copy in 28 days, which, if you've ever tried to write your own website, it keeps getting shoved to the back burner. It's like, I'm going to do that.
(16:11):
Oh, yeah, I need to start. That I'm going to do.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I'll get to that.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
And then Friday rolls around and 16 other things come up. You're like, yeah, it didn't happen. And all of a sudden it's been six months. So one pump to wow gives you a starting point. It gives you like a prescripted start. Here, do this, try this. Shove it into the copy, and you've got a shitty first draft. And from there, having that first draft is the starting point because it's easier to edit that I'm pointing. You guys probably can't hear me pointing, but I'm pointing. Having the starting point is critical, and being able to edit is so much easier than writing from scratch. And so that's the whole goal. But it started out as an entry level way to work with me for people who maybe couldn't afford a full project but wanted to get the help.
(16:56):
And what it evolved into was being a really great resource for copywriters and coaches and other freelancers who are really good at doing for other people but have a really hard time doing it for themselves.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Yeah. To give kind of a little bit of context about Aaron's course as kind of like a gateway drug to working with took. I took bomb to like, I think it was like the very first iteration of it, wasn't it, Erin?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yeah, I think. Were you both in the first iteration?
Speaker 1 (17:27):
I was like, full disclosure, were both in.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
We were both in whomp whomp to wow. And I went through it. I used it to create my previous generation website. I'm in the middle of a rebrand right now. It was perfect for what I needed at the time, but now I'm rebranding again. It's been like two years now since this started. And I tried going through it again, but I'm like, you know what? I need more Erin. So I actually hired Erin to do an intensive of my brand new web copy. And let me tell you, this woman did in a day what I was farting around with for months. It was actually ridiculous. So that's why I say working with Erin in her course is like a gateway drug, because I know that and I trusted her. It turned out amazing.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
So thank you for that. Thank you. I'm putting that on my website. "This course is like a gateway drug for working with Erin". Maybe not. Maybe I will see, context is so a lot of people will go through it and get it to a place where they love it. And then there were a couple of people who were like, okay, I don't have the time. I've done 90% of this, but it's just not coming together. And they'll bring me in to polish it up because you're so close to it. And it's like, I like this. It's maybe not quite right, but I don't know.
(18:48):
And then all of a sudden, someone comes in, they're like, and again, the noises and the hand motions that are not going to come through very well in the podcast, but to work their magic and turn it into something that flows and tells the story you want. Yeah. So thank you. Thank you for that. That's huge.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
And it was interesting, not only, and don't discount the accountability part of it, because to have someone who is leading a group session with a very distinct timeline and knowing that it's in your best interest to keep pace with the course because what's the edit? The copy? Children have no shoes. Your own personal website copy is always going to take a backseat to client work. So it was nice to have the accountability piece of it, but also the caliber of client and student that you attracted to. Womp. It was the in the wamp community, whatever cohort that you were going in was so helpful because everyone brought their experience to the table and could help you kind of spin some of this chaff into gold again because you've been in it so can't see it anymore.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Well, and I think it's hard. That was one of my favorite parts too, was the accountability. The groups like these friends, people became my friends whether I knew them or not. It was fun. Right now, while pumptua is available, self paced. So it doesn't necessarily have the accountability, but there are some accountability options that I've built in to make it self paced in evergreen so that you can still do it. But there's some little carrots to wrap it in 30 days and there's some little carrots. When I say carrots the second time, I mean there's some emails that I've pasted out so that it's like, this is where you should be. We may not be having a call, but here are the kinds of things. This current iteration includes some co working time and a co working community that I'm part of.
(20:49):
So there's a two hour session that I host every week where people can come bring their questions. And so it's me time without being like formal group me time.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Yeah. I love that. My next question would be like, how has this shift in your business changed you as a person, do you think?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I think about this a lot, and I struggle always to put words to it, but I have become a much more competent person. I have become much less tolerant of crap. And some of the things that used to stop me before, I can see now, were just excuses. And I don't mean that in an unfeeling, unkind, not warm and fuzzy way, but the truth is, it's like if you're going to do something, you got to do it and you got to take action. And I am far better at just taking action now than I was far better at testing. And I think the more that you do uncomfortable things, positive uncomfortable things, the easier it gets to take that risk, because it's like, okay, so if this flops, what's the worst that happens, I've put some time, maybe some money into it. So what?
(21:59):
I can make more money. So what, I can try something else. I can learn from this. I think owning a business has really done a lot for me in that respect. And I just think when I used to contract for people, I was like, why do you do this way? Why are you just looking for new ways when it does work? And there's something that's really comfortable about knowing what to expect and what works, that's not what gets you ahead. What got you here doesn't get you to the next phase.
(22:28):
And I think understanding that growth, but also finding this community of people who will give you the tough love when you need it, but who will also be there to catch you and give you a big hug when maybe things don't go the way you expect, and you're like, I'm going to go work at Target. Yeah, I think that sounds good every day. So I think the friendships are probably the most important part, but also that willingness to try new things and take risks, because as someone who was chronically underpaid for a really long time, chronically underappreciated, you don't know what's out there until you try. And it's really hard to try.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
And scary.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
It's scary when you're like, oh, well, I'm barely making ends meet now. What happens if I have less looking back at that person? I wish I could tell her to start way sooner. Yeah, but where would I be if that food blog that I started writing in 2009, if I hadn't stopped it, who would I be now?
Speaker 3 (23:32):
I love that you had a food blog. I think that was actually the moment when I knew you were my people. Because as you know very well, I love cooking. I love anything food related. I have so much fun in the kitchen. And when I saw, I think in our mastermind, I think I saw you mentioned that you had a food blog, and I'm like, this is someone I need to keep talking to.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
And also, let's find another, please. Once upon a time, I really used to like to cook, and I don't hate it. Now that I have to cook for other people three times a day, it has kind of lost a lot of its shininess. But also, I had to cook everything for two years from scratch because my daughter had a dairy allergy.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
So I called myself a vegan carnivore because I had to prep everything vegan first without any dairy, any butter, anything. And then I could add the meat in.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Oh my gosh, I would be so sad without dairy, she says, sipping an iced latte. Anyway, okay, so you've touched on what you would tell past you. Is there anything else that you would tell your past self other than to.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Just start sooner, dream bigger and start sooner? Because for many of us, we got into this to replace our income or because were unemployable, because were trying to be parents and stay at home parents or had unable to go to a physical office for any number of reasons. And that made it very hard to find something that was suitable. So I knew that if I wanted my life the way I wanted it, I had to make it that way. But even then, I wasn't dreaming big enough. So I want people to challenge themselves to dream bigger because you never know what you're capable of unless you set this high, lofty, big ass goal.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Yeah, I love me a big ass goal. I'm always big on trying to be as ambitious as you're comfortable being. I always say, don't be afraid to get outside of your comfort zone. Even if it's just stepping 1ft over the line. There's 1ft. You don't necessarily have to pull vault across it. Just push yourself just a little bit every time. And I think that's a lot more palatable way to do things.
(25:51):
For sure. Thank you for that, Erin.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
So do you have anything else that you want to share with us before we close off your interview?
Speaker 2 (25:58):
I mean, I can talk for hours, so I think we're probably best served, all of us, to close out here. If anyone has questions about my structure, the way I do things, you're more than welcome to reach out.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
And also, if you need to get a website up, please do yourself a favor and check out womp because it is genuinely a very good course. And if you do the work, you will have web copy in 28 days.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
I can vouch for that. All right, well, thank you very much for listening and for being with us on this episode of the coffee table. This is Erin, Grace and Nicole signing off. Say bye, everyone. Bye.
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