April 9, 2024 • 29 mins
Welcome back to The Copy Table. Get comfy, 'cause this one's for our copywriter friends who identify as 'people pleasers'—and we know there are a lot of you. Heck, we have our moments, too! Have you ever ignored your gut and said "yes" to a project or client that should have been a pass? We get it. You need to bring in money and clients to make your business go. Still it feels lousy when a client seems great but ends up being a total nightmare to work with. One thing we've found is that red flags are almost always there ahead of time, they can just be sneaky and well-hidden. In this must-listen episode, we're covering:
- The red flags we've found and know how to recognize them
- The power of gut checks and how to recognize nerves vs warnings
- The importance of boundaries and how to set ones that work for you
Most importantly? You'll learn that not all red flags need to warn you away completely.
The takeaway? There really is no one right way to build a copywriting business you love! Whether you need actionable tips to market your copywriting business, a push to raise your rates, or the courage to plant your flag in a new niche, we've got you covered. Over the years, we've met some extraordinary people who've helped us, and we're ready to help you avoid the pitfalls that so many copywriters find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to the copy table, the podcast for copywriters who want to get new ideas and inspiration for building and scaling a business you love.
In this podcast, hosts Grace Fortune, Nicole Morton, and Erin Pennings bring new topics and guests to the table. Every single episode.
We're spilling the beans on how you can use your interests and expertise to define what success means to you and take steps to achieve it. In this special episode, Erin, Nicole, and I are going to be talking all about how some money just costs too much and the red flags that we've encountered across our time in business. But first things first. Nicole, what are you drinking today?
(00:45):
I'm drinking ice water. So that may be one of the seven signs of the coming apocalypse.
So be careful, everyone make plans. What about you, Erin?
I am also drinking ice water. Yeah, that is not a sign of the apocalypse. As you know, I'm obsessed with my Starbucks tumblers. So today's beverage of choices, once again, 24oz of water at a time.
(01:15):
I'm obsessed with your Starbucks tumblers, too. To be honest, it is a pretty impressive collection.
I guess I'm the only one who's not going healthy today. I have a full on Starbucks tumbler full of iced coffee.
Good for you.
And this episode is not sponsored by.
Starbucks, but we're very open to a collab.
Hint, hint.
(01:36):
So, red flags. I know that we have all encountered them. I know we've all found several. And sometimes it's a lesson that you have to learn once. Sometimes it's a lesson you learn a couple times over and over again, and that's okay. But Nicole, I'm going to dive in. What's your favorite red flag? What's your favorite red flag? Do you have a favorite red flag? I think you can have a favorite red flag. What's the red flag that stands out most to you?
(02:04):
The one that I struggle with is when clients don't understand their own business to the extent that they feel confident communicating about it going forward. That's a struggle, especially as a card carrying people pleaser like you really want to get them off the ground. But no one's going to ever be on the same page if that page is not yet written, right? So if your client is really struggling, especially with their value prop man, that is just a slog. And, you know, it's, everyone ends up disappointed at some point during the project because, you know, no one's on the same page.
(02:43):
I think that really, really makes timelines difficult, for sure. Because, you know, one of the things that I find when that's the case is there's so much coaching and so much back and forth that's needed. It's almost like we do so much coaching as copywriters, as strategists, because it's like, well, are you clear? But it's almost like before you can take on specific projects, you have to do the pre work on this, whatever that looks like. And otherwise you end up with clients who are in the mid project. They're like, I don't know, I don't really think I can call myself an expert.
(03:24):
And that's something more with like one one individual startups, as opposed to places that have had to get some funding or people that have been in business for a while, because I find, I don't know, do you find that people who've been in business for a while, they may not be able to communicate what they do concisely, but they know it. Like they are laser focused on the what they do and sometimes they need some coaching and pulling it out, but they at least have it super clear. You can't see me tapping my head, but it's super clear in their heads.
(03:52):
That's exactly right. Like they know they can sell themselves up one side and down the other. And maybe that sales language doesn't necessarily come across as marketing language. And that's, you know, that's where we come in to finesse that. But even seasoned business owners are going to struggle if they're at a point where they're pivoting, if they're taking on new niches, if they're launching a new project. I mean, this is not just a startup or a new business problem. Everyone's going to hit this wall at some point or another.
(04:21):
Yeah, and I think that a lot of times, especially if people have been in business for a long time, they almost lose, they can lose a little bit of sight of why they started their business in the first place because of all the changes that they've had to make, the little tweaks, maybe perhaps some changes in their specific industry, new rules, regulations, whatever the case may be. Really, when I think of the red flag that you mentioned, like not knowing what their value prop is, when I think of that red flag, I think of more. This is going to lead to scope creep because as you continue working on with somebody that doesn't know where their value prop is, it almost becomes, you almost become obligated to try to find it for them.
(05:05):
And I don't think that people business owners necessarily realize that's, that's a, that's worth so much money in and of itself that kind of strategy and coaching can always be worth more than the cost of just writing content.
For them or writing, no question. That is, not only is that a specialty, but that's a business. That's a strategic business, essential.
(05:29):
Right. And when people almost get expected to do it for free, it really kind of diminishes the value of the work that they do. So, like, I'm really curious, like, with that specific red flag, Nicole, how have you overcome that in the past? Whoever's listening to this, if they're encountering that problem, what would you recommend for them?
Well, assess your risk tolerance for one. So do you have the bandwidth to be able to coach your client through this? Do you have the expertise to be able to coach your client through this? Are you in a place in your business development where you feel confident that you can grow alongside this client? And if not, that's, there's no shame in that game if, you know, if you decide that you guys are not aligned properly for this project. I, again, as a card carrying people pleaser, have taken on those clients and have really struggled because too many cooks in the kitchen would be part of the problem. You know, I can think of a particular instance where I didn't have a specific point of contact who was solely responsible for green lighting changes and edits.
(06:32):
And it's just then you multiply that problem by two or by three where three people can't get on the same page.
Right.
So, you know, it's assessing your risk tolerance. It's assessing your ability to coach them. Through these growing pains, I felt that it was worth preserving the relationship and working through that with them, but that was my personal decision and my choice. And, yes, it was a struggle, but, you know, it's on a case by case basis.
(07:00):
It sounds like you're very intentional about that, too.
You have to be. Otherwise, we've been talking a lot, the three of us, about, you know, that phrase, some money costs too much. So, you know, it may be it's a great project that, you know, pays excellently, but at what cost?
Yeah, a big paycheck is never worth the toll on your mental health or capacity. I say, what about you, Erin? Have you come across that? And how have you worked? How have you overcome it?
(07:28):
You know, I think, yeah, I've definitely come across it. And sometimes you have to suffer through it. I think sometimes you think things are probably very clear and you don't realize until you get into, like, people can talk a really good game and not saying, don't trust your clients, but sometimes you don't find out until you're in the middle of a project, or sometimes you don't realize the limitations, or sometimes people might come to you and be like, we want to work with you, we love you, and it's really easy to get caught up in that and maybe not do some of the due diligence that you would otherwise. And I say all this because I haven't always encountered a way to avoid it. Sometimes it's very clear. It's like, you know what? I don't think you're ready to work with me.
(08:15):
I think you need to bring on a coach. Here's how I would handle this if were working together. But I don't think working with me is a good use of your money at this point. You need to get clearer on what your goals are or clearer on what your business is. Because I think, you know, sometimes it relates to not understanding their business. Sometimes it relates to not defining an audience, and sometimes it relates to goals. You know, like, maybe they don't know what they're building towards or what they want to get out of it or a number of things. So sometimes I am able to coach them through it. To your point, Nicole, it's the worth the risk. Maybe I really like them. Maybe there's some other things.
(08:56):
There's been one or once or twice that I have handed a deposit back and I've said, you know, I would really love to work with you on this, but, you know, as we've gotten further into this, here's where we are, or we'll come to a meeting of the minds in the middle. Because in the end, it boils down to ethics, I think, what are you willing to do and what best serves the client? So I think a lot of my red flags stem from, but I think on the flip side, understanding when it happens, because it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when from my perspective, and I think it's a matter of being extremely analytical of what went wrong.
(09:35):
What would you know, looking back, like, if I knew now what I, or if I knew then what I know now, how could I uncover that information? What questions can I ask up front in process? And that way, you're not adding on Scope creek, you don't feel like you're going, oh, well, that's going to be an additional fee or this is going to be more. You can either build it in from the start, or you can just pass them to someone who is better served to help them better position.
(10:00):
I love that perspective about going back and red flag proofing your onboarding process. So that's an opportunity for you to start shoring up your foundations. That's a really great point.
Yeah, that was actually going to be what I was going to add to this. I think that one of the best ways to help you as a copywriter through something like this is to have boundaries and expectations set up in the first place. Like, this is what our engagement includes. This is what it does not include. If you are, like, if you don't have these things, then maybe this isn't the right time for us. If you do have these things, great, let's continue. But having those very clearly laid out beforehand before your clients ever sign on with you, I think is probably, like, the best way to go about this and prevent yourself all the stress and personal agony. You know, I've had something like that happen to me before where there's just little bits of scope for you. Like, hey, can you.
(10:55):
Can you just. Can you just. And it ends up being something that, you know, maybe doesn't take me a long time to do, but it's still super valuable. And because I hadn't ironed out my onboarding and pre work, I ended up agreeing to things that maybe I shouldn't have. Right. Just to, you know, to, number one, build up my reputation as somebody who does good work, but also, you know, to keep everybody happy, because I'm also, you know, I do have people pleasing tendencies. It's just, it's a real. It's a real struggle. And I just think that doing that work ahead of time really is just such a great way to go about this and save yourself the trouble.
(11:35):
Yeah, I would agree about. Agree with all of that. We don't always agree on a heck of a lot in this room here. So what then, Grace? What is a red flag to you that is kind of make it or break it kind of a thing?
(11:55):
I think, like a big red flag for me is when prospective clients show that they don't respect your time and when they don't respect your knowledge. There. There has been times when I've had prospects reach out to me and just seem super gung ho about working with me, and then, like, they either don't show up to a meeting or they just. They ghost, they don't, they just stop responding to emails. And frankly, I don't want to call it a hit list, but it's kind of a hit list. It's just, it's a note of people that I would maybe reconsider working with in the future if they reach out again, because I, like, I get pretty busy. I don't, I want to make sure that I'm respecting other people's time as well as mine.
(12:40):
And frankly, for me, if my calendar is booked up with times for people who don't show or ghost, it's making less space for people who really do want to work with me.
How do you reverse engineer your process? Kind of like you've said, to weed those out from the get go?
Yeah, that could be really challenging. Like, frankly, there is. There is. I don't know of a bulletproof way to actually stop that before it happens. The only thing that you can do is believe what people show you. So if they start that habit, cut it out right then and there. To be fair, there are times when some people have legitimate reasons for not wanting to go ahead at that time. Maybe there's something going on in their business. Maybe they're pivoting. Maybe they've had family stuff come up. Like, Lord knows I've had enough of that happen to me.
(13:26):
It's just, it's one of those things where you want to be human, but at the same time, just keep it in the back of your head and make sure that you are just doing everything that you can to protect your own time, especially as you start growing. Like if you're just starting out in your copywriting business, maybe you do have a little bit of time, extra time for that kind of stuff. But as you grow and your capacity gets filled up, you won't, you'll have to be a little bit more ruthless, as I like to say.
(13:54):
Right.
But, yeah, genuinely, I don't think that there's a way to prevent it entirely from happening. And I do think that it happens. Like, no matter where you are in your business, like even the most famous copywriters these days, I can guarantee you they have stories about getting ghosted.
So, yeah, I think there's a couple things, a couple actionable things that we can take away from your point, though, grace. And one is setting client expectations up front. So, you know, you're putting boundaries around your time, your availability and your expectations with responses and timing to responses. Maybe it's something where you have a due date for client homework. So you have a day zero policy where everything has to be done. And that when it's received, that's day zero and work starts after that. Maybe that is incorporating a pause clause into your contract where if you client goes radio silent, there is a reengagement fee to protect your time. But you're right, life happens and at minimum, assume goodwill as opposed to malice.
(14:58):
So.
But protect yourself.
I think you told me once, Nicole, you should not be penalized for being nice. So. And it's tough to find that balance. One of the ways that I have encountered this and one of the ways that I work really hard, you know, my best friend is a client of mine. We've worked really well together. And what we've learned just over time is that we have to have a set schedule. And not just a set schedule, like lined out in the email, here's when this is due. Here's when this is due. Here's when this is due. We actually have a weekly conversation, and that's not a typical engagement with me. So I may want to backtrack here. I'm not going to.
(15:37):
So to that point, because that was a lesson I learned working, you know, basically since were five with each other, that we just have to sit down and hammer it out together. That's something that I do with all of my client projects, too, whether it's live review session, whether it's a workshop session. But sometimes it's like, okay, at the end of this call, we are going to schedule the next call, and it's going to be on both of our calendars. It is going to have all of the critical links within the calendar invite, and we're both going to get reminders that are scheduled regarding this. So you'll have a one day reminder, you'll have a 15 minutes reminder.
(16:14):
And that way, because so many of us live and die by our calendars, if it's on there, even if it's not 100% done by that point, it holds everyone accountable, both to get the work done, to get their work reviewed, and then to talk through it. So that's probably the best way that I've had. But other than setting expectations, like, I don't know how else you can do that as long as you're communicating and communicating and over communicating. But to your point, Nicole, like, jumping back, I really like the idea of a pause clause. I have a kill clause, which is like, if you go radio silent for two weeks, the full project's due, or at least the value to that point. Talk to me about a pause clause, please.
(16:55):
And to be fair, this is a concept that Kirsty Fenton and Amy Posner talk a lot about on the business badassery podcast and something that our have talked to us within the copywriter club mastermind. So this is not something new or revolutionary, but it's a clause in your contract that says, and you know, you set the terms. And essentially it's, if I have no feedback from you by such and such a date, whether it's, you know, and you'll give them reminders that your work is on hold and to reengage the work at a revised schedule is x dollars. You know, what's it worth to you to reengage this client? Whatever, you know, whatever is a reasonable, you can't say my air quotes, reasonable amount for you to reengage this client.
(17:41):
And I have not had to do that for my personal business, for the agency that I work for. We have had to mention it to clients in our weekly updates. If we don't hear from you by x date, we will assume the project is on pause. Here's the terms of reengagement.
That's interesting. I've also talked to people and I have this in my own contract. I have yet to enforce it. But where you have, if you cancel a call within 24 hours, there's a $300 cancellation fee with the idea that if people cancel, there had better be a darn good reason, you know, of course, to your point, grace, life happens. Life happens. But if you cancel a call because something came up that you knew about, I'll give someone one time and I'll be like, hey, just so you know, this is in your contract. So next time I will probably, you know, I can waive it this time, but next time I really need to do it because I've held off on doing other projects because of this schedule in mind. And then usually people understand and sometimes they don't, and sometimes it's a thing.
(18:47):
Yeah, I like that. That's, I think that's really actionable. I really like the idea of having pause and a kill fee and in your, written, in your contracts just to protect yourself. I think that's super smart. I know that I haven't had to enforce either or just yet, even though I probably should have a few times. But yeah, I mean, sometimes being, being nice does come with a cost, right? Sure.
(19:11):
And again, you know, assess. Assess your risk tolerance and gauge your. What your boundaries are and expectations are.
Yeah.
All right, it's your turn in the hot seat. Aaron, what's your red flag of choice?
My red flag of choice at the moment is speaks to ethics. And I know we covered a little bit in the podcast, and this is something that's less tangible, as in, everyone has a different line in the sand. What you're willing tolerate, what you're not willing tolerate without giving specifics on the specific experience. Some money isn't worth it. Whether it's due to legal risk, whether someone says something on the call that just makes me uncomfortable, whether from a personal standpoint or it just gives me an ick factor, I'll walk away. I'll say, you know what? I'm sorry, but. And I'll tell them why. I won't play the blame game, but I'll just say this made me uncomfortable. It's hard. It's very hard. And I feel like I'm not getting as granular as I'd like to hear, but it is. It's a slippery slope.
(20:13):
And sometimes you just get that sense in your gut that this is not right, that it feels icky, or that this person is not maybe a good fit for any number of reasons. And it's really important, I think, to listen to your gut, because if it's speaking up, there's something there's something sticky there, and you at least need to. You owe it to yourself to. To think about it. And some of the ways that I've handled that is, like I said, like, hey, this. This makes me uncomfortable. I'm not willing to take this risk. If you want to do terms that are within my comfort level, I'm happy to take this on. If not. But I think, where possible, I try to put the ball in their court, or I say, you know, I didn't realize. Da da da scope.
(20:55):
There's a conflict of interest. And if I can, I'll recommend them to someone else. But if not, sometimes you have to walk away and say, you're on your own, and I don't like doing that. The people pleaser in me likes to give them some kind of actionable solution. But it's like, if I don't want to work with a specific situation, I have a hard time recommending someone else can, unless they know all the details of why I left or why I closed the contract.
(21:23):
I think that's a really good point. And to get to use kind of like a granular example for me. Like, I have. I have pretty specific parameters with which I'll be marketing. Like, I try to be very conscientious about the kind of copy that I. That I do write and how I approach course launches. This is all my own line in the sand. I refuse to write copy that is intentionally harmful to the people reading it. Especially, for example, if, you know, if somebody's target audience is, let's say, minorities or any kind of disadvantaged group, like anything to do with disabilities or whatever, I will not use high pressure sales tactics in those kind of scenarios because I believe that they're harmful. So if I have a client who refuses to go along with that at that point, then I would.
(22:17):
Then I would stop the contract, because for me, that. That kind of money costs too much. That's just to give a specific example.
Yeah. And, you know, something actionable that listeners can take away from this. There's. There's a couple of. There's a couple of points of engagement where you can decide whether or not you're going to proceed with this engagement. Right. So that could be at the prospecting level for your inquiry form on your website. You can state your values on that site. I'm thinking specifically about. Our colleague Brittany McBean has language on her site that says, you know, if you fall in these categories, I am not a practitioner for you, and you are welcome to take your dollars elsewhere.
(22:56):
And I don't want to help you make money, I think is specifically one of the senses. I love it.
Yeah, it's. It's badass. Give people the opportunity to self select out early in the process. But to your point, grace, like, and things. Things come up maybe during the discovery process or during the kickoff process or during the editing process, where, you know, all of a sudden, you know, they're just going to throw you for a loop. You know, honesty is the best policy. Try to give them every opportunity to do the right thing. And if. If it's just not a fit, then you high five and go on into, you know, go on into the sunset separately.
(23:35):
Yeah.
As it were.
No, I totally agree with you there.
I absolutely agree.
Yeah. I absolutely love the way Brittany McBean vets her clients. I think it's wonderful.
So I haven't done specific vetting of clients like Brittany does, but that's how I've vetted other writers who work for me. Something very similar, like, on the page. It's like, if you're interested in working with me, please read all of this and then send me an email and let me know if you still want to work with me. And I do the same thing for referrals. So that's. And it's kind of fun. So I think, you know, actionable takeaways, like, what are your non negotiables? Figure that out upfront. And some of it's a learning process. Sometimes you're like, oh, I'm never doing that again. But what else can you take away from? How so what would you do actionably to help people who are listening?
(24:27):
I would say, like, you kind of just hit the nail on the head. Aaron, make sure you have a list of non negotiables, like where. Where is your line that you will not budge on? Like you said, it can be fluid. Sometimes you learn things as you move through your copywriting business that you don't want to do again. And that's okay. You might feel good about doing, like, fast action timers and the big obnoxious, like, bro marketing tactics at first, but then you realize that doesn't feel so great. So you can change anytime you want to. That's one of the great things about having your own business. It's yours. You can run it however the hell you want. I think that's wonderful. That's honestly one of my favorite parts about doing what I do is I get to call the shots finally.
(25:09):
That's a big deal for me. Another actionable step is do like Brittany McBean do and have a vetting form. Right. Make sure that you have non negotiables written out very clearly so that people, like you said, can self select out. You're welcome to take your dollars elsewhere. They're not welcome here if you fall under these categories.
Right.
That's, that's what I would do.
(25:30):
I think that's also really helpful for unrealistic deadlines, which is not a red flag that we've covered. But it's like, sure, I can do it by this time, but this is what you have to do. Like what are the ground rules? I will take this on if you do this. And then they have to think about what they're willing to sacrifice. Right?
You keep think. I keep thinking about that meme that there are three levers. There's time, there's money, and there's quality. You only get to pick two.
(25:55):
I love that.
Right? Yeah.
So you can have it fast. So you're either going to pay for it or it's going to be low quality. You can have it cheap you can wait a long time for it or have low quality.
Right.
So you only get to pick two. Which one are you willing to budge on?
Yeah.
Yeah. Now, I'm often like la land thinking like, oh, yeah, how can I implement more of this? How can I add other aspects and existing projects that are in play?
(26:25):
Yeah. So we are like, we're getting into about 20 minutes, I think, of this episode. I do want to quickly roundtable the fourth red flag, though, having unrealistic deadlines and expectations. How do you handle that kind of stuff? Erin?
Basically kind of what I touched on as I snuck another red flag in there. It's like, if we do this, here's what has to happen. But 99% of the time, in my experience, deadlines are arbitrary. When they are an internal deadline for the client, they may want to have something happen in a specific timeframe, but they may not be prepared to make it happen and do what it takes on their end. And so a lot of the time I find, like, every time I bend over backwards to get something done by a specific timeframe, the client then takes longer to review it. And it's like, oh, it turns out that wasn't as much of a priority. And so I think first, the first thing that I've done is said, here's what's going to happen to get this done on your schedule.
(27:32):
Here is the cost for accelerating this. Are you willing to pay it? And even some of the time they'll say yes, and they still will take their time. But on the flip side, it's like, oh, maybe this isn't as much of a priority, and then you can get them to tell you, oh, well, you know, I was hoping to have it done next week, but realistically, I can get this done sometime in the next two or three months. And that's when it comes out. Like, and I think the other thing to do is to ask, why? Why do you need this? What are you doing with it? Because that does two things.
(28:03):
One, it lets you know if that's really what they need to move the needle or if they need something else or if they need supporting copy or what some of the other things are. But it also helps them reassess the deadlines. It's like, oh, well, when will you have all the other pieces in mind? Oh, well, that'll take a couple more weeks, months, whatever. Then, you know. So I think it's partly about vetting and it's partly about the client, and I think it's about not being afraid to put your services at a premium in an unrealistic timeframe.
(28:32):
Yeah. No, I totally agree.
So you know, my position is you can have whatever you want at x dollars per hour and don't be afraid to implement a rush fee and have that in your contract. You know, if they want something in 24 hours or less, 48 hours or less, 72 hours or less, it's, you know, it's x percent premium over the existing fee rate.
(28:55):
Yeah.
Your time is worth a lot of money.
Yes, it is.
Yes.
So while that does not exhaust the list of red flags that we can talk about that we've experienced that exist out there, that's what we're covering today. But we want you to reach out to us and tell us what some of the red flags are that you've experienced and how you've handled them. If you have any questions or comments or feedback, we'd love to hear it. You can go to thecopytable.com and share them with us. And with that, we'd like to thank you for joining us on this episode of the coffee table. We're grace fortune, Nicole Morton and me, Erin Pennings. And we will see you next time. Bye.
Welcome to the copy table, the podcast for copywriters who want to get new ideas and inspiration for building and scaling a business you love.
In this podcast, hosts Grace Fortune, Nicole Morton, and Erin Pennings bring new topics and guests to the table. Every single episode.
We're spilling the beans on how you can use your interests and expertise to define what success means to you and take steps to achieve it. In this special episode, Erin, Nicole, and I are going to be talking all about how some money just costs too much and the red flags that we've encountered across our time in business. But first things first. Nicole, what are you drinking today?
(00:45):
I'm drinking ice water. So that may be one of the seven signs of the coming apocalypse.
So be careful, everyone make plans. What about you, Erin?
I am also drinking ice water. Yeah, that is not a sign of the apocalypse. As you know, I'm obsessed with my Starbucks tumblers. So today's beverage of choices, once again, 24oz of water at a time.
(01:15):
I'm obsessed with your Starbucks tumblers, too. To be honest, it is a pretty impressive collection.
I guess I'm the only one who's not going healthy today. I have a full on Starbucks tumbler full of iced coffee.
Good for you.
And this episode is not sponsored by.
Starbucks, but we're very open to a collab.
Hint, hint.
(01:36):
So, red flags. I know that we have all encountered them. I know we've all found several. And sometimes it's a lesson that you have to learn once. Sometimes it's a lesson you learn a couple times over and over again, and that's okay. But Nicole, I'm going to dive in. What's your favorite red flag? What's your favorite red flag? Do you have a favorite red flag? I think you can have a favorite red flag. What's the red flag that stands out most to you?
(02:04):
The one that I struggle with is when clients don't understand their own business to the extent that they feel confident communicating about it going forward. That's a struggle, especially as a card carrying people pleaser like you really want to get them off the ground. But no one's going to ever be on the same page if that page is not yet written, right? So if your client is really struggling, especially with their value prop man, that is just a slog. And, you know, it's, everyone ends up disappointed at some point during the project because, you know, no one's on the same page.
(02:43):
I think that really, really makes timelines difficult, for sure. Because, you know, one of the things that I find when that's the case is there's so much coaching and so much back and forth that's needed. It's almost like we do so much coaching as copywriters, as strategists, because it's like, well, are you clear? But it's almost like before you can take on specific projects, you have to do the pre work on this, whatever that looks like. And otherwise you end up with clients who are in the mid project. They're like, I don't know, I don't really think I can call myself an expert.
(03:24):
And that's something more with like one one individual startups, as opposed to places that have had to get some funding or people that have been in business for a while, because I find, I don't know, do you find that people who've been in business for a while, they may not be able to communicate what they do concisely, but they know it. Like they are laser focused on the what they do and sometimes they need some coaching and pulling it out, but they at least have it super clear. You can't see me tapping my head, but it's super clear in their heads.
(03:52):
That's exactly right. Like they know they can sell themselves up one side and down the other. And maybe that sales language doesn't necessarily come across as marketing language. And that's, you know, that's where we come in to finesse that. But even seasoned business owners are going to struggle if they're at a point where they're pivoting, if they're taking on new niches, if they're launching a new project. I mean, this is not just a startup or a new business problem. Everyone's going to hit this wall at some point or another.
(04:21):
Yeah, and I think that a lot of times, especially if people have been in business for a long time, they almost lose, they can lose a little bit of sight of why they started their business in the first place because of all the changes that they've had to make, the little tweaks, maybe perhaps some changes in their specific industry, new rules, regulations, whatever the case may be. Really, when I think of the red flag that you mentioned, like not knowing what their value prop is, when I think of that red flag, I think of more. This is going to lead to scope creep because as you continue working on with somebody that doesn't know where their value prop is, it almost becomes, you almost become obligated to try to find it for them.
(05:05):
And I don't think that people business owners necessarily realize that's, that's a, that's worth so much money in and of itself that kind of strategy and coaching can always be worth more than the cost of just writing content.
For them or writing, no question. That is, not only is that a specialty, but that's a business. That's a strategic business, essential.
(05:29):
Right. And when people almost get expected to do it for free, it really kind of diminishes the value of the work that they do. So, like, I'm really curious, like, with that specific red flag, Nicole, how have you overcome that in the past? Whoever's listening to this, if they're encountering that problem, what would you recommend for them?
Well, assess your risk tolerance for one. So do you have the bandwidth to be able to coach your client through this? Do you have the expertise to be able to coach your client through this? Are you in a place in your business development where you feel confident that you can grow alongside this client? And if not, that's, there's no shame in that game if, you know, if you decide that you guys are not aligned properly for this project. I, again, as a card carrying people pleaser, have taken on those clients and have really struggled because too many cooks in the kitchen would be part of the problem. You know, I can think of a particular instance where I didn't have a specific point of contact who was solely responsible for green lighting changes and edits.
(06:32):
And it's just then you multiply that problem by two or by three where three people can't get on the same page.
Right.
So, you know, it's assessing your risk tolerance. It's assessing your ability to coach them. Through these growing pains, I felt that it was worth preserving the relationship and working through that with them, but that was my personal decision and my choice. And, yes, it was a struggle, but, you know, it's on a case by case basis.
(07:00):
It sounds like you're very intentional about that, too.
You have to be. Otherwise, we've been talking a lot, the three of us, about, you know, that phrase, some money costs too much. So, you know, it may be it's a great project that, you know, pays excellently, but at what cost?
Yeah, a big paycheck is never worth the toll on your mental health or capacity. I say, what about you, Erin? Have you come across that? And how have you worked? How have you overcome it?
(07:28):
You know, I think, yeah, I've definitely come across it. And sometimes you have to suffer through it. I think sometimes you think things are probably very clear and you don't realize until you get into, like, people can talk a really good game and not saying, don't trust your clients, but sometimes you don't find out until you're in the middle of a project, or sometimes you don't realize the limitations, or sometimes people might come to you and be like, we want to work with you, we love you, and it's really easy to get caught up in that and maybe not do some of the due diligence that you would otherwise. And I say all this because I haven't always encountered a way to avoid it. Sometimes it's very clear. It's like, you know what? I don't think you're ready to work with me.
(08:15):
I think you need to bring on a coach. Here's how I would handle this if were working together. But I don't think working with me is a good use of your money at this point. You need to get clearer on what your goals are or clearer on what your business is. Because I think, you know, sometimes it relates to not understanding their business. Sometimes it relates to not defining an audience, and sometimes it relates to goals. You know, like, maybe they don't know what they're building towards or what they want to get out of it or a number of things. So sometimes I am able to coach them through it. To your point, Nicole, it's the worth the risk. Maybe I really like them. Maybe there's some other things.
(08:56):
There's been one or once or twice that I have handed a deposit back and I've said, you know, I would really love to work with you on this, but, you know, as we've gotten further into this, here's where we are, or we'll come to a meeting of the minds in the middle. Because in the end, it boils down to ethics, I think, what are you willing to do and what best serves the client? So I think a lot of my red flags stem from, but I think on the flip side, understanding when it happens, because it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when from my perspective, and I think it's a matter of being extremely analytical of what went wrong.
(09:35):
What would you know, looking back, like, if I knew now what I, or if I knew then what I know now, how could I uncover that information? What questions can I ask up front in process? And that way, you're not adding on Scope creek, you don't feel like you're going, oh, well, that's going to be an additional fee or this is going to be more. You can either build it in from the start, or you can just pass them to someone who is better served to help them better position.
(10:00):
I love that perspective about going back and red flag proofing your onboarding process. So that's an opportunity for you to start shoring up your foundations. That's a really great point.
Yeah, that was actually going to be what I was going to add to this. I think that one of the best ways to help you as a copywriter through something like this is to have boundaries and expectations set up in the first place. Like, this is what our engagement includes. This is what it does not include. If you are, like, if you don't have these things, then maybe this isn't the right time for us. If you do have these things, great, let's continue. But having those very clearly laid out beforehand before your clients ever sign on with you, I think is probably, like, the best way to go about this and prevent yourself all the stress and personal agony. You know, I've had something like that happen to me before where there's just little bits of scope for you. Like, hey, can you.
(10:55):
Can you just. Can you just. And it ends up being something that, you know, maybe doesn't take me a long time to do, but it's still super valuable. And because I hadn't ironed out my onboarding and pre work, I ended up agreeing to things that maybe I shouldn't have. Right. Just to, you know, to, number one, build up my reputation as somebody who does good work, but also, you know, to keep everybody happy, because I'm also, you know, I do have people pleasing tendencies. It's just, it's a real. It's a real struggle. And I just think that doing that work ahead of time really is just such a great way to go about this and save yourself the trouble.
(11:35):
Yeah, I would agree about. Agree with all of that. We don't always agree on a heck of a lot in this room here. So what then, Grace? What is a red flag to you that is kind of make it or break it kind of a thing?
(11:55):
I think, like a big red flag for me is when prospective clients show that they don't respect your time and when they don't respect your knowledge. There. There has been times when I've had prospects reach out to me and just seem super gung ho about working with me, and then, like, they either don't show up to a meeting or they just. They ghost, they don't, they just stop responding to emails. And frankly, I don't want to call it a hit list, but it's kind of a hit list. It's just, it's a note of people that I would maybe reconsider working with in the future if they reach out again, because I, like, I get pretty busy. I don't, I want to make sure that I'm respecting other people's time as well as mine.
(12:40):
And frankly, for me, if my calendar is booked up with times for people who don't show or ghost, it's making less space for people who really do want to work with me.
How do you reverse engineer your process? Kind of like you've said, to weed those out from the get go?
Yeah, that could be really challenging. Like, frankly, there is. There is. I don't know of a bulletproof way to actually stop that before it happens. The only thing that you can do is believe what people show you. So if they start that habit, cut it out right then and there. To be fair, there are times when some people have legitimate reasons for not wanting to go ahead at that time. Maybe there's something going on in their business. Maybe they're pivoting. Maybe they've had family stuff come up. Like, Lord knows I've had enough of that happen to me.
(13:26):
It's just, it's one of those things where you want to be human, but at the same time, just keep it in the back of your head and make sure that you are just doing everything that you can to protect your own time, especially as you start growing. Like if you're just starting out in your copywriting business, maybe you do have a little bit of time, extra time for that kind of stuff. But as you grow and your capacity gets filled up, you won't, you'll have to be a little bit more ruthless, as I like to say.
(13:54):
Right.
But, yeah, genuinely, I don't think that there's a way to prevent it entirely from happening. And I do think that it happens. Like, no matter where you are in your business, like even the most famous copywriters these days, I can guarantee you they have stories about getting ghosted.
So, yeah, I think there's a couple things, a couple actionable things that we can take away from your point, though, grace. And one is setting client expectations up front. So, you know, you're putting boundaries around your time, your availability and your expectations with responses and timing to responses. Maybe it's something where you have a due date for client homework. So you have a day zero policy where everything has to be done. And that when it's received, that's day zero and work starts after that. Maybe that is incorporating a pause clause into your contract where if you client goes radio silent, there is a reengagement fee to protect your time. But you're right, life happens and at minimum, assume goodwill as opposed to malice.
(14:58):
So.
But protect yourself.
I think you told me once, Nicole, you should not be penalized for being nice. So. And it's tough to find that balance. One of the ways that I have encountered this and one of the ways that I work really hard, you know, my best friend is a client of mine. We've worked really well together. And what we've learned just over time is that we have to have a set schedule. And not just a set schedule, like lined out in the email, here's when this is due. Here's when this is due. Here's when this is due. We actually have a weekly conversation, and that's not a typical engagement with me. So I may want to backtrack here. I'm not going to.
(15:37):
So to that point, because that was a lesson I learned working, you know, basically since were five with each other, that we just have to sit down and hammer it out together. That's something that I do with all of my client projects, too, whether it's live review session, whether it's a workshop session. But sometimes it's like, okay, at the end of this call, we are going to schedule the next call, and it's going to be on both of our calendars. It is going to have all of the critical links within the calendar invite, and we're both going to get reminders that are scheduled regarding this. So you'll have a one day reminder, you'll have a 15 minutes reminder.
(16:14):
And that way, because so many of us live and die by our calendars, if it's on there, even if it's not 100% done by that point, it holds everyone accountable, both to get the work done, to get their work reviewed, and then to talk through it. So that's probably the best way that I've had. But other than setting expectations, like, I don't know how else you can do that as long as you're communicating and communicating and over communicating. But to your point, Nicole, like, jumping back, I really like the idea of a pause clause. I have a kill clause, which is like, if you go radio silent for two weeks, the full project's due, or at least the value to that point. Talk to me about a pause clause, please.
(16:55):
And to be fair, this is a concept that Kirsty Fenton and Amy Posner talk a lot about on the business badassery podcast and something that our have talked to us within the copywriter club mastermind. So this is not something new or revolutionary, but it's a clause in your contract that says, and you know, you set the terms. And essentially it's, if I have no feedback from you by such and such a date, whether it's, you know, and you'll give them reminders that your work is on hold and to reengage the work at a revised schedule is x dollars. You know, what's it worth to you to reengage this client? Whatever, you know, whatever is a reasonable, you can't say my air quotes, reasonable amount for you to reengage this client.
(17:41):
And I have not had to do that for my personal business, for the agency that I work for. We have had to mention it to clients in our weekly updates. If we don't hear from you by x date, we will assume the project is on pause. Here's the terms of reengagement.
That's interesting. I've also talked to people and I have this in my own contract. I have yet to enforce it. But where you have, if you cancel a call within 24 hours, there's a $300 cancellation fee with the idea that if people cancel, there had better be a darn good reason, you know, of course, to your point, grace, life happens. Life happens. But if you cancel a call because something came up that you knew about, I'll give someone one time and I'll be like, hey, just so you know, this is in your contract. So next time I will probably, you know, I can waive it this time, but next time I really need to do it because I've held off on doing other projects because of this schedule in mind. And then usually people understand and sometimes they don't, and sometimes it's a thing.
(18:47):
Yeah, I like that. That's, I think that's really actionable. I really like the idea of having pause and a kill fee and in your, written, in your contracts just to protect yourself. I think that's super smart. I know that I haven't had to enforce either or just yet, even though I probably should have a few times. But yeah, I mean, sometimes being, being nice does come with a cost, right? Sure.
(19:11):
And again, you know, assess. Assess your risk tolerance and gauge your. What your boundaries are and expectations are.
Yeah.
All right, it's your turn in the hot seat. Aaron, what's your red flag of choice?
My red flag of choice at the moment is speaks to ethics. And I know we covered a little bit in the podcast, and this is something that's less tangible, as in, everyone has a different line in the sand. What you're willing tolerate, what you're not willing tolerate without giving specifics on the specific experience. Some money isn't worth it. Whether it's due to legal risk, whether someone says something on the call that just makes me uncomfortable, whether from a personal standpoint or it just gives me an ick factor, I'll walk away. I'll say, you know what? I'm sorry, but. And I'll tell them why. I won't play the blame game, but I'll just say this made me uncomfortable. It's hard. It's very hard. And I feel like I'm not getting as granular as I'd like to hear, but it is. It's a slippery slope.
(20:13):
And sometimes you just get that sense in your gut that this is not right, that it feels icky, or that this person is not maybe a good fit for any number of reasons. And it's really important, I think, to listen to your gut, because if it's speaking up, there's something there's something sticky there, and you at least need to. You owe it to yourself to. To think about it. And some of the ways that I've handled that is, like I said, like, hey, this. This makes me uncomfortable. I'm not willing to take this risk. If you want to do terms that are within my comfort level, I'm happy to take this on. If not. But I think, where possible, I try to put the ball in their court, or I say, you know, I didn't realize. Da da da scope.
(20:55):
There's a conflict of interest. And if I can, I'll recommend them to someone else. But if not, sometimes you have to walk away and say, you're on your own, and I don't like doing that. The people pleaser in me likes to give them some kind of actionable solution. But it's like, if I don't want to work with a specific situation, I have a hard time recommending someone else can, unless they know all the details of why I left or why I closed the contract.
(21:23):
I think that's a really good point. And to get to use kind of like a granular example for me. Like, I have. I have pretty specific parameters with which I'll be marketing. Like, I try to be very conscientious about the kind of copy that I. That I do write and how I approach course launches. This is all my own line in the sand. I refuse to write copy that is intentionally harmful to the people reading it. Especially, for example, if, you know, if somebody's target audience is, let's say, minorities or any kind of disadvantaged group, like anything to do with disabilities or whatever, I will not use high pressure sales tactics in those kind of scenarios because I believe that they're harmful. So if I have a client who refuses to go along with that at that point, then I would.
(22:17):
Then I would stop the contract, because for me, that. That kind of money costs too much. That's just to give a specific example.
Yeah. And, you know, something actionable that listeners can take away from this. There's. There's a couple of. There's a couple of points of engagement where you can decide whether or not you're going to proceed with this engagement. Right. So that could be at the prospecting level for your inquiry form on your website. You can state your values on that site. I'm thinking specifically about. Our colleague Brittany McBean has language on her site that says, you know, if you fall in these categories, I am not a practitioner for you, and you are welcome to take your dollars elsewhere.
(22:56):
And I don't want to help you make money, I think is specifically one of the senses. I love it.
Yeah, it's. It's badass. Give people the opportunity to self select out early in the process. But to your point, grace, like, and things. Things come up maybe during the discovery process or during the kickoff process or during the editing process, where, you know, all of a sudden, you know, they're just going to throw you for a loop. You know, honesty is the best policy. Try to give them every opportunity to do the right thing. And if. If it's just not a fit, then you high five and go on into, you know, go on into the sunset separately.
(23:35):
Yeah.
As it were.
No, I totally agree with you there.
I absolutely agree.
Yeah. I absolutely love the way Brittany McBean vets her clients. I think it's wonderful.
So I haven't done specific vetting of clients like Brittany does, but that's how I've vetted other writers who work for me. Something very similar, like, on the page. It's like, if you're interested in working with me, please read all of this and then send me an email and let me know if you still want to work with me. And I do the same thing for referrals. So that's. And it's kind of fun. So I think, you know, actionable takeaways, like, what are your non negotiables? Figure that out upfront. And some of it's a learning process. Sometimes you're like, oh, I'm never doing that again. But what else can you take away from? How so what would you do actionably to help people who are listening?
(24:27):
I would say, like, you kind of just hit the nail on the head. Aaron, make sure you have a list of non negotiables, like where. Where is your line that you will not budge on? Like you said, it can be fluid. Sometimes you learn things as you move through your copywriting business that you don't want to do again. And that's okay. You might feel good about doing, like, fast action timers and the big obnoxious, like, bro marketing tactics at first, but then you realize that doesn't feel so great. So you can change anytime you want to. That's one of the great things about having your own business. It's yours. You can run it however the hell you want. I think that's wonderful. That's honestly one of my favorite parts about doing what I do is I get to call the shots finally.
(25:09):
That's a big deal for me. Another actionable step is do like Brittany McBean do and have a vetting form. Right. Make sure that you have non negotiables written out very clearly so that people, like you said, can self select out. You're welcome to take your dollars elsewhere. They're not welcome here if you fall under these categories.
Right.
That's, that's what I would do.
(25:30):
I think that's also really helpful for unrealistic deadlines, which is not a red flag that we've covered. But it's like, sure, I can do it by this time, but this is what you have to do. Like what are the ground rules? I will take this on if you do this. And then they have to think about what they're willing to sacrifice. Right?
You keep think. I keep thinking about that meme that there are three levers. There's time, there's money, and there's quality. You only get to pick two.
(25:55):
I love that.
Right? Yeah.
So you can have it fast. So you're either going to pay for it or it's going to be low quality. You can have it cheap you can wait a long time for it or have low quality.
Right.
So you only get to pick two. Which one are you willing to budge on?
Yeah.
Yeah. Now, I'm often like la land thinking like, oh, yeah, how can I implement more of this? How can I add other aspects and existing projects that are in play?
(26:25):
Yeah. So we are like, we're getting into about 20 minutes, I think, of this episode. I do want to quickly roundtable the fourth red flag, though, having unrealistic deadlines and expectations. How do you handle that kind of stuff? Erin?
Basically kind of what I touched on as I snuck another red flag in there. It's like, if we do this, here's what has to happen. But 99% of the time, in my experience, deadlines are arbitrary. When they are an internal deadline for the client, they may want to have something happen in a specific timeframe, but they may not be prepared to make it happen and do what it takes on their end. And so a lot of the time I find, like, every time I bend over backwards to get something done by a specific timeframe, the client then takes longer to review it. And it's like, oh, it turns out that wasn't as much of a priority. And so I think first, the first thing that I've done is said, here's what's going to happen to get this done on your schedule.
(27:32):
Here is the cost for accelerating this. Are you willing to pay it? And even some of the time they'll say yes, and they still will take their time. But on the flip side, it's like, oh, maybe this isn't as much of a priority, and then you can get them to tell you, oh, well, you know, I was hoping to have it done next week, but realistically, I can get this done sometime in the next two or three months. And that's when it comes out. Like, and I think the other thing to do is to ask, why? Why do you need this? What are you doing with it? Because that does two things.
(28:03):
One, it lets you know if that's really what they need to move the needle or if they need something else or if they need supporting copy or what some of the other things are. But it also helps them reassess the deadlines. It's like, oh, well, when will you have all the other pieces in mind? Oh, well, that'll take a couple more weeks, months, whatever. Then, you know. So I think it's partly about vetting and it's partly about the client, and I think it's about not being afraid to put your services at a premium in an unrealistic timeframe.
(28:32):
Yeah. No, I totally agree.
So you know, my position is you can have whatever you want at x dollars per hour and don't be afraid to implement a rush fee and have that in your contract. You know, if they want something in 24 hours or less, 48 hours or less, 72 hours or less, it's, you know, it's x percent premium over the existing fee rate.
(28:55):
Yeah.
Your time is worth a lot of money.
Yes, it is.
Yes.
So while that does not exhaust the list of red flags that we can talk about that we've experienced that exist out there, that's what we're covering today. But we want you to reach out to us and tell us what some of the red flags are that you've experienced and how you've handled them. If you have any questions or comments or feedback, we'd love to hear it. You can go to thecopytable.com and share them with us. And with that, we'd like to thank you for joining us on this episode of the coffee table. We're grace fortune, Nicole Morton and me, Erin Pennings. And we will see you next time. Bye.
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