April 23, 2024 • 33 mins
Welcome back to another episode of The Copy Table! "With great power comes great responsibility..." This quote (and a book that Grace could not put down) inspired this episode, in which we discuss ethical marketing and our responsibility as copywriters to avoid sleazy tactics when we weave words for our clients and our own businesses. Listen up, and you'll learn:
- What the BITE model is (and the overlap between MLM culture and marketing businesses like copywriting).
- That you're not immune to marketing tactics even though you're a marketer! (Copywriters are sold a potentially harmful glamorized image of the "six-figure business" regardless of their personal circumstances)
- Red flags to look for so you can know when you're crossing the sometimes slippery slope between ethical and unethical marketing.
Most importantly? You'll learn that you can take a stand on ethical marketing without reducing your results simply by giving a damn and baking transparency into your business.
The takeaway? There really is no one right way to build a copywriting business you love, but it's on you to use your powers of persuasion responsibly! Whether you need actionable tips to market your copywriting business, a push to raise your rates, or the courage to plant your flag in a new niche, we've got you covered. Over the years, we've met some extraordinary people who've helped us, and we're ready to help you avoid the pitfalls that so many copywriters find.
The Extras:The Book: Hey, Hun: Sales, Sisterhood, Supremacy, and the Other Lies Behind Multilevel Marketing - https://a.co/d/hKb7wen Grace's 'No Assholes' Clause (tweak and add to your contracts if you like): "One of the very core business values of The Contractor is The Golden Rule: Treat Others As You Want To Be Treated. As such, a strict “No Assholes Clause” is in effect. The Contractor defines “Asshole” as an individual who engages in the following behaviors:
- Inconsiderately wielding power over others and/or stepping on others to advance their own interests
- Exploiting the powerless
- Prioritizing their own comfort and gain above all others
- Treating others well based on their utility and/or perceived social ranking
- Exerting control unnecessarily
- Degrading, dehumanizing, and devaluing those around them
- Providing derogatory, unhelpful feedback of work provided
- Getting angry quickly, being slow to forgive, and hanging onto past wrongdoings
If The Client engages in behaviors that the Contractor deems to fall under the above definition, the Contractor has the right to immediately cease work based on the severity of the infraction. The Client will be given a partial refund based on the completion status of the project or retainer, and no recommendations will be made to others in the Contractor’s network of colleagues."
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the copy table, the podcast for copywriters who want to get new ideas and inspiration for building and scaling a business you love.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
In this podcast, hosts Grace Fortune, Nicole Morton, and Erin Pennings bring new topics and guests to the table every single episode.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
We're spilling the beans on how you can use your interests and expertise to define what success means to you and take steps to achieve it.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Today on the copy table, we are talking about how with great power comes great responsibility and how there are some tie ons going on, not just right now in pop culture, but in general culture. So Grace Fortune, our resident course launch strategist, was talking about a recent book that she was just reading and how it triggered some thoughts in her. And so we would like to have a discussion on that today.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Sure thing. Do you want me to just go ahead and kind of do the context? Lead in. Awesome. Okay. So over the weekend, I finished up reading a book called hey, hon by Emily Paulson. It's basically a tear down of the multi level marketing industry. And as I was reading it, I couldn't help but notice that there were a lot of parallels between the MLM industry and the launch industry as a whole. So, in a way, I kind of had a little bit of an existential crisis over the weekend because, like, I personally feel very strongly that selling should be done in an ethical way. It should not be harmful at all or predatory. It should be based on a legitimate need and be accessible and affordable to people who need to know the information that you're selling.
(01:47):
So what I would love to have a discussion about today is what your opinions are, Nicole and Erin, about the industry as a whole, and kind of discuss how maybe we can do our part to help mitigate some of these harmful practices that we see in selling.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
So, you know, to refer to Aaron's opening, I abide by both. Peter Parker's motto of with great power comes great responsibility, and also will Wheaton's motto, don't be a dick.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
So, by the way, that is rule.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Number two in our household, only we call it don't be a jerk. So it's age appropriate.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Yes, which I highly recommend.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
But it is when you go through and you research the history of marketing, the history of sales, the history of advertising, and there is a very fine line between explanation and coercion, between manipulation and marketing. So how do we recognize which side we're on? How do we stay on the right side of the issue? And to Grace's point, what do we do in public? Or what is our responsibility in public of addressing that situation.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I think that's really. I mean, it's so timely. I don't know if it's ever not timely to be talking about it, but especially post pandemic and the rise of online learning and the rise of online business, which is featuring some interesting, like, growing pains and slowdowns right now. And I think a lot of people who have been relying on their online business income to include their courses are feeling the pinch right now and the pressure to, you know, bring in that income. But just because you can doesn't mean you should, like my other little sound bite for the day, if you will. But I think it's an important time to look back and realize what actually serves people, what is the way to do things. And this is me kind of talking in circles here. But it's not just used car salesman.
(03:51):
It's being ethical. And I think that is a real opportunity to stand out and show that you're not just in it to make money. Sure, we're all doing this because we want to continue to pay our mortgage or our rent. If were all multi billionaires, we might be doing something different. I hope we'd be doing something different with that again, like great power, great responsibility model. But there's so many discussion points here, though, that we could hit on. But I think, Grace, it really stood out to you because of the space that you're in. What were some of the immediate thoughts that you had?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
So have either of you ever heard of something called the bite model? Okay, so basically, MLMs rely on almost, like, authoritarian, like, control patterns in order to get people to. To be on board with everything that they're doing. So the bite model is just. It's from Steve Hasan. It's called the bite model of authoritarian control. So it basically relies on four different categories. There's behavioral control, information control, thought control, and emotional control. So as I was reading Emily's book, like, she had a lot of, like, different, like, kind of mini anecdotes of her progress through the whole MLM journey. And what really stood out to me, I'll kind of go into a bit more detail on, like, the parallels that I saw based on each different model of the bite model. Part of the bite model. Excuse me.
(05:23):
So behavioral control, in almost like a culty MLM sense, is like. Like regulating how people. People see their physical reality. They dictate with who people other people associate with. They control different types of clothing and hairstyles. So I'm sure that you've noticed like, when you see, like, pictures of, like, let's say, like, MLM conferences or whatever, everybody always looks the same. They're usually, they're usually, like, white. They're usually, like, attractive. They're usually wearing, like, high end clothing. And one particular parallel that I saw for the behavioral control method in the launch base is that you're basically encouraged to be dependent on the person selling you the product in order to get what you want. So let's say, for example, if you are purchasing like, a masterminder course, that's going to teach you know, how to make more money with copywriting.
(06:21):
A lot of times people will, whoever's selling the product will, in their sales, copy act like their way is the only way to be successful in the copywriting industry. And there was one, I don't want to like out anybody specifically, but there was one example of an ad that I saw in the wild. I think it was like six or seven months ago now. It could be more like a year. Time doesn't exist anymore for me, but it could have been yesterday. Hey, there was an ad that I saw that literally said, and this is verbatim, you are not a copywriter unless you join this specific program, and it was from an extremely well known person in the copywriting space. Like I said, I don't want to out anybody. But when I first saw that immediately, like, my heart, like, almost stopped.
(07:13):
And even for me, like, I've been doing this for a while now, and even for me, like, I felt like crap just even reading that. So that's just like one example. So let's talk about the next one part of the bite model, information control. So again, you are, you're basically encouraged to use only, again, their method. A lot of it is going to tie back to something similar. You're encouraged to only use the person that you're with, that you purchased from methods. And if you do try to do something different, you're almost seen as, like a little bit of an outsider. Like, you're not. It's not as extreme as I find with, like, mlms because a lot of it is online, not in person. However, there's still an element of becoming an outsider.
(08:00):
If you decide to go in another direction, you're either with us or you're against us. Yeah, either kind of with us or against us. Let's talk about. There's thought control. That's the next part of the bite model. So you're encouraged to use, like, loaded language and cliches that stop critical, basically. That stop critical thinking. Yes. And we've seen that in the wild, actually, like Tarzan, K talks a lot about this kind of language in her materials, which I totally, which I actually really respect. And then there's, like, emotional controls. So when you're writing, like, launch copy, a lot of times you're concern. Sorry. Your primary goal is to, you're blocking feelings of, like, critical thinking, and you're encouraged to only think emotionally in the moment and hit the bipartisan at all costs.
(08:49):
So, like, I, like, kind of going back to my original point here is, like, as I was reading it, there were just so many different parallels to the launch space and this MLM concept. And I just found it, like, really disturbing. And what I would really love to do is kind of dig into how, like, how can we as copywriters, use our powers with great responsibility and just blindly following what other people do and, you know, prioritizing sales at all costs. So I know, like, for me, I have put a lot of time and effort into using, you know, responsible copywriting. Like, you won't find, you know, countdown timers or, you know, act. Now there's only two spots left, even though that's not necessarily true in some cases for other people's sales.
(09:39):
So I'm curious, like, what do you guys think about, like, the bite model? And how do you guys use responsible copywriting in your own businesses?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
That's a big question.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
This is juicy.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
And I think it's really important to dig into this.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
The first thing that I associate with the bite model is that is cult behavior.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
It is manipulation comes to mind, hyper manipulative.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
And we joke, you know, we joke about how, you know, Lululemon is a cult. We joke about how pampered chef was a cult. We joke about those things. But, you know, the reality is that those are emotionally manipulative techniques. And I also can't help but think about how we are more open and acknowledging about mental health struggles and how those two things intertwine. That's where things become very dangerous. And to your question about, you know, what could we do?
(10:32):
I think the first thing is being public about your intent, being very upfront about your reasoning for either speaking about courses and specifically your reason for creating your motivation for bringing this kind of content forward, expectations about, you know, what this, the transformative power, if any, of this type of copy and material being very public about it and also being very public about the discussions that happen around that. The questions that people are asking, you're answering questions in public. You're not taking these DM's offline. You know, sunlight is the ultimate disinfectant.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Like, I'm also torn here because I think there are some mlms out there that have legitimately good products, and I think there are some that have legitimately reasonable business models. I think it's the people who make or break it, and it's the leadership of the companies that make sure I've not been part of any of the ones that made like huge names and huge controversies. So I say that, but I think it comes down to how people are encouraged to buy, yes. Both as consultants and as consumers. And I think that there's ethics across the board. You have to be ethical. You have to your point, like, be very upfront, this is not the magical licks, or here's the reason why this works. It's like, I mean, if there's religious parallels, there's a faith that believes in all paths to salvation.
(12:01):
So they're like, whatever you believe, we're good with it. Atheists, you know, any of the other religions, any of your own, the great Paso farian religion, if that's what. And that is actually a legitimate recognized.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
May we all be touched by his noodly appendage.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
And I can tell some. Anyway, not going to go quite there yet with the stories, but I mean, I think it comes down to, this is not the only path. This is not the only way. Here is one way that you can do things, and anything else should leave a bad taste in your mouth, not just as a copywriter, but as a human. And I think, you know, and I've written lots and lots of sales pages, too. And I think it's always about what can you promise, what is likely and can you show a transformation? Are there people who can reasonably achieve this? And if the answer is no, then you need to do some soul searching. Is this something you really want to be part of?
(13:00):
And I think the hill that I will die on is that anything that you write has the power to be copy. Whether it's a blog, whether it's a sales page, whether it's website copy. The goal is ultimately to get people to take action. Email, you want people to open it, so you write a subject line.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
I would argue that if you're trying to get somebody to do anything with your writing, then it's a form of copy.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Even reading it.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Even if it's an informational piece. Hey, do you know these five tips? What's going to back that up? Why are you an expert to tell that? What's the concept of why people would want to follow these tips? What's the reason that they would want to achieve whatever this thing is, whether you financially benefit from it or not? I think it comes back to what is ethical, what is right. Do you feel good about it? Is this something that you would want sold to you, whatever it is? And I think that's really hard to quantify, and that's what makes ethics so.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Tricky, is it's like to each their.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Own in their own situation. But whether you're a carnival barker, whether you're a used car salesman, whether you are just another person who's found something that works for you and wants to help someone else.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yeah. And what feels right to add onto that? I like, I think that in the copywriting industry as a whole, I think that we're particularly kind of vulnerable to that because you can see all the time, if you know, if you follow other copywriters, you're sold the idea of the six figure business, and it's become like, basically like glamorized in our space. And when you're being sold to, as a copywriter, a lot of times you're sold like, this is the fast path to a six figure business. And a lot of times these results are not necessarily typical or achievable for everybody. Not everybody has the same space to implement the things that they're being sold, whether or not they're valid tactics or not.
(14:54):
If the average person, and by average, I don't mean like somebody who is, you know, like us white, fairly decent of having the resources to do that you need to do, maybe you don't necessarily have a huge network to back you up. I found that the parallel between that in the copywriting space as well as the MLM space is that you're sold a lifestyle that you're expected to buy into. Like, for example, with mlms, they say, you know, if you can get so many people to recruit into your little MLM circle, your upline and your downline, they call it, you know, then you're going to be successful and then you'll be rich and then you'll, you know, you get a free car and you get free trips and et cetera.
(15:34):
And they're not actually free, by the way, but with copywriters, like, you're told, like, if you run your copywriting business in a specific way, that's how you become rich. And they act like that's the only solution. And that if you just buy the program, then you're going to see that kind of success. And oftentimes, it's not necessarily true. Like, a lot of times, programs like this, they don't take into account that, you know, maybe you have four or five kids at home, maybe you have family members that need your attention. You can't be all necessarily all in and focus on your business.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
And I just. I want to reinforce what you're saying, grace, is that we as copywriters, we're trained on how to write like this, and we, even though knowing full well what's going on, are just as susceptible to these tactics.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Because it doesn't matter who you are, they're overriding your cognition to tap into, you know, whether or not you believe in your lizard brain. Right? So you're getting past critical thinking to emotional response, and whether or not, you know, that's fear based. Fear of missing out, you know, fear of not being able to pay your bills, fear of not being able, you know, having to go back into, you know, the grind of a nine five, whatever that is. We as copywriters, are trained to understand that kind of language, and yet we are just as susceptible as anybody else.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
And I think we are. We're maybe a little more savvy than most. We're able to recognize. Gosh, that's manipulative. Gosh. But when those. Those words pull at our true pain points, like, oh, gosh, yeah, this is me. I mean, I can't tell you how many short, quick, easy offers I have bought because it is the solution to all of my social media problems. I mean, great. Like, maybe it is. Do I ever go back and look at them? Also, no.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
My poor credit card. Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Oh, my God. Same. Like, my personal development budget this year has been, like, completely obliterated. I excuse it to myself because, you know, I help people on courses. I want to be in the know of how things are done. No, it's because I'm a sucker. I have no critical thinking skills. So therefore, you. You know all that to say, nicole, you're absolutely right. It doesn't matter who you are and how smart you are, you're still just as susceptible as the next person. So I would just caution you before if you're thinking, you know, I'm a copywriter. I know this kind of stuff. You might not as much as you think you do.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
So just if you do sales copy, you have a different perspective than if you do launch copy. I mean, for email copy or if you do website copy, because there are different persuasion techniques and different levels of discussion, for lack of a better word, based on what you're selling and based on what you're writing, for sure.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Yeah, no, I would totally agree with that. And this was something that I had considered getting into until I read this book. I was considering getting more into like affiliate marketing, which is another very slippery slope into MLM type stuff because person a sells to person b, who sells to their network, which, you know, that can ten x your launch, which I absolutely freaking hate that expression. But using affiliate marketing to boost your launch is a tactic that's worked very well for many people.
(18:58):
For example, again, this is not outing anybody specifically, but if you look at big courses like digital course Academy or the copy, just as an example of affiliate marketing, you'll see my inbox every single year gets absolutely flooded with people who are like, you know, by digital course academy using my affiliate link, you know, I get a cut, but you get special bonuses if you sign up with my link. It's not MLM in the purest sense of the word, but you are essentially part of a chain that gets money for every sale.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
I'm going to disagree with you that, I mean, I think there's a potential there and I've been there and it's really with some of the subscription boxes that I've been in that I'm like, oh, there's, oh, it's the same one. It's another person talking about this subscription box, which I don't have a problem with affiliate marketing. I think it comes down to ethics. Again, it is a great way to get in front of other audiences who you can help. And I think, again, it's this gray area. Right. I won't fight you on this.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
You're allowed to disagree, but I think.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
It'S a wonderful way to reach something if it's a product that can truly help other people. I have no problem being an affiliate for other people. You know, especially when it's like, hey, you got to try this. Would I tell people about a really good product if I wasn't getting something out of it? Absolutely. But at the same time, you know, I think we've each spent the time building our business and our audience and, you know, there's no reason to not, yeah, work out something. And I think where you have to draw the line is this an ethical person to sell this to is not, is this an ethical person to sell this to? But is this an ethical use of my time? Is this someone who can really benefit from this?
(20:42):
Or are they, you know, are we selling them something that they don't actually need? And I think that's what it comes down to. And I'll give you the example that I'm specifically thinking of right now is I have. I don't know what else to call it. Like, we'll say colleague who serves a very different audience. We are actually, our audiences have a lot of overlap, but her skills and what she does in her business are at a point where, while I wholeheartedly recommend what she does, I don't have a lot of referrals to give her. It's just not, you know, it's not necessarily a direct one to one thing. And her services are generally a little lower ticket than what she refers people to me for.
(21:24):
So I absolutely give her a referral bonus because I can't do any kind of reciprocation for her or anything that feels like it's reciprocal. If she could send me potentially, and I don't think she will, but, like, she could potentially send me 50% of the clients that she works with, I can send her an occasional colleague. So to me, that feels right to thank her for recommending me or for recommending some of my digital products who can really help her audience. But again, if it's like, I'm selling this to make as much money as I can, which is one of my problems with influencer marketing, which I think.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
We'Re all, like, on the same.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
They're all tend to seem dream together, different flavors. It's like, is it a product you believe in?
Speaker 3 (22:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
You know, the other reason I'm like, but I have affiliates for my course. Right? Like, I'm not. People who have seen it being built or who have taken it can affiliate. I'm not trying to make it personal at all.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
That's not like, no, it's okay. And, like, I will agree with you there that there is an ethical way to approach affiliate marketing. Like, you basically hit the nail on the head. It's about making sure that your audience, who you're trying to sell this thing to, is actually going to benefit from it. And it's not just more crap that people need, that don't need, and they. It dies on their hard drive. And again, I have. I bought so many different programs and whatnot that I have literally never even used or opened after I. And I'm just wondering to myself, why did I even do this? Like, probably, at least, probably a couple thousand dollars this year alone. Right. Like, it just, there's a way to do it that is ethical and is not gross.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
And there's no real way to quantify it, unfortunately. It's, it's, does this feel good or does this feel slimy? And if it feels slimy, don't do it. There's no money that's worth that.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Yeah, it's that argument. Some money is too expensive, right?
Speaker 1 (23:17):
That's right. Some money costs too much.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
For sure. Yeah, we have an episode on that.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
We do. We do. But, yeah. Thank you for your thoughts on that, Erin. Like, I'm curious, Nicole, what have you run into this in a while at all?
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Oh, absolutely. I have been very fortunate that I can be choosy about the clients that I work with and I feel very proud about the types offerings that they're putting out into the wild. But I absolutely, you know, we see this a lot. And I have also been susceptible to it. I have, again, you know, the graveyard, of course, is in my hard drive, the fact that I am absolutely susceptible to a good hard sell.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
For sure.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
For sure. Oh, man. But, yeah, like, I do firmly believe that when you are going to sell a product that you have to make sure that you're actually selling something that your audience is going to need and use as much as possible. I mean, you can't control if somebody doesn't actually need it and still buys it. Like, I can't blame these people that I buy from for my decision in the end, so, but I just think that we need to be, like, intentional about who we're selling to, how we word the language on our sales pages, in our emails, in all of our copy. It really boils down to not using techniques that rob people of their ability to think through a purchase.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
You never want to make somebody feel bad about their situation in order to make a sale. You're allowed to talk about the problems that people can have. I don't have.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
If people are telling you, oh, it's fine, just put it on your credit card, it doesn't matter. Like, run. That is the biggest red flag. I don't care how good the program is that person, it does not have your best interests at heart. Now, there are things that are worth an investment.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
But generally speaking, that's a big, giant red flag.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Yeah. All right, well, let's have a little bit of fun here. Let's have, like, a quick fire round okay, so, Erin, you've already mentioned a red flag. If they, if they want you to get into debt to buy their program, that's a red flag. Nicole, what's your red flag to look for?
Speaker 1 (25:28):
The countdown timer makes me absolutely stabby legitimate.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
If you are legitimately not going to offer this thing or there are legitimately.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Two more spots left.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Great.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Right. You can only serve so many different people. Right? Like, for example, your mom pomps to our program, you're not going to have like 100 people with one to one calls and one to one attention needed. That just would not make sense. So if it actually makes sense, I don't necessarily object to a countdown timer.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
But that will give like a hundred percent, though. Nicole, I'm with you.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
No false urgency. And my favorite is when people do countdown timers in those big, loud, obnoxious primary colors.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
You know, whatever the visual equivalent of, like, a fire alarm is.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's my favorite.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I've never seen, like, a website with the countdown timers that actually has a legitimate, like, autoplay alarm going off, but that's what that makes.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
So mine ties back to the example that I gave you guys earlier. If you don't blank, you are not a blank where they basically attack, they attack your sense of self and your identity if you don't sign up for what they're offering. Yeah. For example, if for a copywriter, you know, you'll never have a six figure business if you don't do this thing, you're not a real blank. If you don't blank, like using really loaded language. Like that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Like equivalency. Is that what that's called? Or. I don't know. There's a word for that's driving me nuts that I'm like, I can't remember, like ultimate, it's ultimatumy, if nothing else.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Yeah, yeah. It's very, like, it's very black and white and it's meant to make you question your very identity. Like, if somebody told me that I wasn't a launch strategist, if I didn't buy their program on how to launch like that, to me, is an attack on my identity as a launch. It's very loaded language and it's meant to make you feel pain and to associate buying from this person with eliminating that pain because they're supposed to be the solution to not being a copywriter, like I want to. And especially in an industry like ours where imposter syndrome, like, runs absolutely rampant. It's rampant like when were talking.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
About this offline, like, we all are, like, oh, how should I price this? Am I. Can I do that?
Speaker 3 (27:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
It doesn't matter how long you've been doing this.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Yeah. So that, to me, is my red flag.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Sorry, I interrupted you, like three times in your. Oh, but I have something to say. It's all good. It's all good, said Aaron.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Never. It's really scary, the line between wanting to increase sales, because I do understand that you're a business. Like, you want to make sure that you can keep your lights on. You know, you want to make sure that you're able to do rewards of your hard work. Like, if I want to go on a vacation once or twice a year, I want to be able to afford it, damn it. How? However, you want to make sure that you're not doing that at the expense of, like, selling your soul, essentially, and making people feel like. Like crap and having people associate your business with feeling icky.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
You never want to feel icky.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
No.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
You never want to feel less than.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Yeah. Agreed.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
And, well, I don't think you can please everyone all the time. I think there's always going to be someone who is unhappy with the way you have presented your offer or sold it. And it's not about you, generally speaking. It's about sometimes. Sometimes we screw up, sometimes we make mistakes. And I think it's okay to be human, but I think it boils down to what is your intent.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
What are you hoping to accomplish by this?
Speaker 3 (29:09):
I also think, like, transparency is the solution to that. Like, you should be very clear. What are you getting in your offers? You're also supposed to share, like, realistic transformation. So, like, for example, within the case of an MLM, like, they in our industry, like, they glamorize the whole six figure thing, which isn't always possible for some people if that's not the typical use case or don't act like it is. And also in your language and your positioning, make people understand this is what it takes to get. To get that kind of result. Yes. Also making sure that you are being very transparent about who it will work for and who it won't work for. So for me, like, whenever I write something, I always say, who this is for, who this is not for. So, for example, I'm relaunching my website.
(30:05):
One of my offers is a launch audit. So I will audit your launch for you and tell you, okay, this is what needs to be changed, what needs to be fixed. For example, I wouldn't suggest that for somebody who's already reached their launch goals and is happy with their launch, they don't. Maybe they don't need it. I also offer a launch roadmap where I tell you how to do something, or a blueprint, rather, not a roadmap. I will tell you how to do Xyz thing. I would not recommend that for somebody who, you know, has launched a million times and already knows what they're doing. It's all about figuring out, okay, who is this for and who's this not for? And being transparent about it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
On the other hand, though, I want to point something out, though, grace, just because someone has launched a million times, there's not an opportunity for them to better. And they may want the validation that they're doing everything they can do to be as successful as possible.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
And they may want an outside opinion. So.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Yeah, that was probably a bad example. I mean, I just want it, like.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
There'S a certain level of transparency that you can do, but you can't also.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Think of every scenario. Sure.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
So I think that's one of the reasons that I really like sales calls for, you know, it's not possible for like, $29 products. It's just not. But if you have anything that's, you know, over four or $500, it may be worthwhile to invite people to hop on a call. Hey, is this for me?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Right.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Why should I choose this offer or the higher ticket one or the lower ticket one?
Speaker 3 (31:28):
Then be honest with them.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
It comes down to honesty, I think.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Realistically, and you should go into the transaction understanding that it is your responsibility to help them make the decision that's best for them. So, you know, the 20 minutes or 15 minutes consultation call is the cost of doing business.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
And for me, that's just about being, like, a good steward of your brand.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
The peanut gallery is giggling away on the floor, lying at my feet.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Nice.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
That's okay.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
This was a very good discussion.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
I think so, too. I just think it's very valuable to have, especially for. And it's something. It's something to think about. Right. You always want to make sure that you're being responsible and just being a good human. Like, I have a. I have a no assholes in my contracts. Legitimately, I do.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Can we pop that into show notes?
Speaker 3 (32:28):
Sure, yeah, I'll send it over. But legitimately, I. This is something that's very important to me because as somebody who has been in that vulnerable position where I didn't have financial power. I didn't have, you know, a network of people who had my back. I was relying on the ethics and care of people that I bought from. I hope that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
But making sure that you're being a good steward of your brand and showing that you actually care about the people who are you, who you're serving is key. And we have a very great power and great responsibility as copywriters to do that. I think I agree. Oh, Erin, you're on mute.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
It was quiet because the kids were screaming, so I was just going to say thank you for summing that up really nicely. I think this has been an amazing discussion, and I want to thank everyone for tuning in, and we look forward to your feedback on this as well.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yeah, we'd love to know what everyone's experience has been, you know, good or bad.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Yeah, I want to know, too. Definitely shoot us an email or, you know, leave a comment on social media. Wherever you have, wherever you feel like expressing your opinion, we would definitely want to hear it. What I would really want to know is, what is your number one kind of like, check and balance that you put into your business to make sure that the copy that you write is ethical? If that, if that's important to you. If not, I would love to hear why that's not important to you as well. What's your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
Thank you for listening.
Welcome to the copy table, the podcast for copywriters who want to get new ideas and inspiration for building and scaling a business you love.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
In this podcast, hosts Grace Fortune, Nicole Morton, and Erin Pennings bring new topics and guests to the table every single episode.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
We're spilling the beans on how you can use your interests and expertise to define what success means to you and take steps to achieve it.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Today on the copy table, we are talking about how with great power comes great responsibility and how there are some tie ons going on, not just right now in pop culture, but in general culture. So Grace Fortune, our resident course launch strategist, was talking about a recent book that she was just reading and how it triggered some thoughts in her. And so we would like to have a discussion on that today.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Sure thing. Do you want me to just go ahead and kind of do the context? Lead in. Awesome. Okay. So over the weekend, I finished up reading a book called hey, hon by Emily Paulson. It's basically a tear down of the multi level marketing industry. And as I was reading it, I couldn't help but notice that there were a lot of parallels between the MLM industry and the launch industry as a whole. So, in a way, I kind of had a little bit of an existential crisis over the weekend because, like, I personally feel very strongly that selling should be done in an ethical way. It should not be harmful at all or predatory. It should be based on a legitimate need and be accessible and affordable to people who need to know the information that you're selling.
(01:47):
So what I would love to have a discussion about today is what your opinions are, Nicole and Erin, about the industry as a whole, and kind of discuss how maybe we can do our part to help mitigate some of these harmful practices that we see in selling.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
So, you know, to refer to Aaron's opening, I abide by both. Peter Parker's motto of with great power comes great responsibility, and also will Wheaton's motto, don't be a dick.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
So, by the way, that is rule.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Number two in our household, only we call it don't be a jerk. So it's age appropriate.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Yes, which I highly recommend.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
But it is when you go through and you research the history of marketing, the history of sales, the history of advertising, and there is a very fine line between explanation and coercion, between manipulation and marketing. So how do we recognize which side we're on? How do we stay on the right side of the issue? And to Grace's point, what do we do in public? Or what is our responsibility in public of addressing that situation.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I think that's really. I mean, it's so timely. I don't know if it's ever not timely to be talking about it, but especially post pandemic and the rise of online learning and the rise of online business, which is featuring some interesting, like, growing pains and slowdowns right now. And I think a lot of people who have been relying on their online business income to include their courses are feeling the pinch right now and the pressure to, you know, bring in that income. But just because you can doesn't mean you should, like my other little sound bite for the day, if you will. But I think it's an important time to look back and realize what actually serves people, what is the way to do things. And this is me kind of talking in circles here. But it's not just used car salesman.
(03:51):
It's being ethical. And I think that is a real opportunity to stand out and show that you're not just in it to make money. Sure, we're all doing this because we want to continue to pay our mortgage or our rent. If were all multi billionaires, we might be doing something different. I hope we'd be doing something different with that again, like great power, great responsibility model. But there's so many discussion points here, though, that we could hit on. But I think, Grace, it really stood out to you because of the space that you're in. What were some of the immediate thoughts that you had?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
So have either of you ever heard of something called the bite model? Okay, so basically, MLMs rely on almost, like, authoritarian, like, control patterns in order to get people to. To be on board with everything that they're doing. So the bite model is just. It's from Steve Hasan. It's called the bite model of authoritarian control. So it basically relies on four different categories. There's behavioral control, information control, thought control, and emotional control. So as I was reading Emily's book, like, she had a lot of, like, different, like, kind of mini anecdotes of her progress through the whole MLM journey. And what really stood out to me, I'll kind of go into a bit more detail on, like, the parallels that I saw based on each different model of the bite model. Part of the bite model. Excuse me.
(05:23):
So behavioral control, in almost like a culty MLM sense, is like. Like regulating how people. People see their physical reality. They dictate with who people other people associate with. They control different types of clothing and hairstyles. So I'm sure that you've noticed like, when you see, like, pictures of, like, let's say, like, MLM conferences or whatever, everybody always looks the same. They're usually, they're usually, like, white. They're usually, like, attractive. They're usually wearing, like, high end clothing. And one particular parallel that I saw for the behavioral control method in the launch base is that you're basically encouraged to be dependent on the person selling you the product in order to get what you want. So let's say, for example, if you are purchasing like, a masterminder course, that's going to teach you know, how to make more money with copywriting.
(06:21):
A lot of times people will, whoever's selling the product will, in their sales, copy act like their way is the only way to be successful in the copywriting industry. And there was one, I don't want to like out anybody specifically, but there was one example of an ad that I saw in the wild. I think it was like six or seven months ago now. It could be more like a year. Time doesn't exist anymore for me, but it could have been yesterday. Hey, there was an ad that I saw that literally said, and this is verbatim, you are not a copywriter unless you join this specific program, and it was from an extremely well known person in the copywriting space. Like I said, I don't want to out anybody. But when I first saw that immediately, like, my heart, like, almost stopped.
(07:13):
And even for me, like, I've been doing this for a while now, and even for me, like, I felt like crap just even reading that. So that's just like one example. So let's talk about the next one part of the bite model, information control. So again, you are, you're basically encouraged to use only, again, their method. A lot of it is going to tie back to something similar. You're encouraged to only use the person that you're with, that you purchased from methods. And if you do try to do something different, you're almost seen as, like a little bit of an outsider. Like, you're not. It's not as extreme as I find with, like, mlms because a lot of it is online, not in person. However, there's still an element of becoming an outsider.
(08:00):
If you decide to go in another direction, you're either with us or you're against us. Yeah, either kind of with us or against us. Let's talk about. There's thought control. That's the next part of the bite model. So you're encouraged to use, like, loaded language and cliches that stop critical, basically. That stop critical thinking. Yes. And we've seen that in the wild, actually, like Tarzan, K talks a lot about this kind of language in her materials, which I totally, which I actually really respect. And then there's, like, emotional controls. So when you're writing, like, launch copy, a lot of times you're concern. Sorry. Your primary goal is to, you're blocking feelings of, like, critical thinking, and you're encouraged to only think emotionally in the moment and hit the bipartisan at all costs.
(08:49):
So, like, I, like, kind of going back to my original point here is, like, as I was reading it, there were just so many different parallels to the launch space and this MLM concept. And I just found it, like, really disturbing. And what I would really love to do is kind of dig into how, like, how can we as copywriters, use our powers with great responsibility and just blindly following what other people do and, you know, prioritizing sales at all costs. So I know, like, for me, I have put a lot of time and effort into using, you know, responsible copywriting. Like, you won't find, you know, countdown timers or, you know, act. Now there's only two spots left, even though that's not necessarily true in some cases for other people's sales.
(09:39):
So I'm curious, like, what do you guys think about, like, the bite model? And how do you guys use responsible copywriting in your own businesses?
Speaker 2 (09:48):
That's a big question.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
This is juicy.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
And I think it's really important to dig into this.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
The first thing that I associate with the bite model is that is cult behavior.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
It is manipulation comes to mind, hyper manipulative.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
And we joke, you know, we joke about how, you know, Lululemon is a cult. We joke about how pampered chef was a cult. We joke about those things. But, you know, the reality is that those are emotionally manipulative techniques. And I also can't help but think about how we are more open and acknowledging about mental health struggles and how those two things intertwine. That's where things become very dangerous. And to your question about, you know, what could we do?
(10:32):
I think the first thing is being public about your intent, being very upfront about your reasoning for either speaking about courses and specifically your reason for creating your motivation for bringing this kind of content forward, expectations about, you know, what this, the transformative power, if any, of this type of copy and material being very public about it and also being very public about the discussions that happen around that. The questions that people are asking, you're answering questions in public. You're not taking these DM's offline. You know, sunlight is the ultimate disinfectant.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Like, I'm also torn here because I think there are some mlms out there that have legitimately good products, and I think there are some that have legitimately reasonable business models. I think it's the people who make or break it, and it's the leadership of the companies that make sure I've not been part of any of the ones that made like huge names and huge controversies. So I say that, but I think it comes down to how people are encouraged to buy, yes. Both as consultants and as consumers. And I think that there's ethics across the board. You have to be ethical. You have to your point, like, be very upfront, this is not the magical licks, or here's the reason why this works. It's like, I mean, if there's religious parallels, there's a faith that believes in all paths to salvation.
(12:01):
So they're like, whatever you believe, we're good with it. Atheists, you know, any of the other religions, any of your own, the great Paso farian religion, if that's what. And that is actually a legitimate recognized.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
May we all be touched by his noodly appendage.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
And I can tell some. Anyway, not going to go quite there yet with the stories, but I mean, I think it comes down to, this is not the only path. This is not the only way. Here is one way that you can do things, and anything else should leave a bad taste in your mouth, not just as a copywriter, but as a human. And I think, you know, and I've written lots and lots of sales pages, too. And I think it's always about what can you promise, what is likely and can you show a transformation? Are there people who can reasonably achieve this? And if the answer is no, then you need to do some soul searching. Is this something you really want to be part of?
(13:00):
And I think the hill that I will die on is that anything that you write has the power to be copy. Whether it's a blog, whether it's a sales page, whether it's website copy. The goal is ultimately to get people to take action. Email, you want people to open it, so you write a subject line.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
I would argue that if you're trying to get somebody to do anything with your writing, then it's a form of copy.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Even reading it.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Even if it's an informational piece. Hey, do you know these five tips? What's going to back that up? Why are you an expert to tell that? What's the concept of why people would want to follow these tips? What's the reason that they would want to achieve whatever this thing is, whether you financially benefit from it or not? I think it comes back to what is ethical, what is right. Do you feel good about it? Is this something that you would want sold to you, whatever it is? And I think that's really hard to quantify, and that's what makes ethics so.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Tricky, is it's like to each their.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Own in their own situation. But whether you're a carnival barker, whether you're a used car salesman, whether you are just another person who's found something that works for you and wants to help someone else.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yeah. And what feels right to add onto that? I like, I think that in the copywriting industry as a whole, I think that we're particularly kind of vulnerable to that because you can see all the time, if you know, if you follow other copywriters, you're sold the idea of the six figure business, and it's become like, basically like glamorized in our space. And when you're being sold to, as a copywriter, a lot of times you're sold like, this is the fast path to a six figure business. And a lot of times these results are not necessarily typical or achievable for everybody. Not everybody has the same space to implement the things that they're being sold, whether or not they're valid tactics or not.
(14:54):
If the average person, and by average, I don't mean like somebody who is, you know, like us white, fairly decent of having the resources to do that you need to do, maybe you don't necessarily have a huge network to back you up. I found that the parallel between that in the copywriting space as well as the MLM space is that you're sold a lifestyle that you're expected to buy into. Like, for example, with mlms, they say, you know, if you can get so many people to recruit into your little MLM circle, your upline and your downline, they call it, you know, then you're going to be successful and then you'll be rich and then you'll, you know, you get a free car and you get free trips and et cetera.
(15:34):
And they're not actually free, by the way, but with copywriters, like, you're told, like, if you run your copywriting business in a specific way, that's how you become rich. And they act like that's the only solution. And that if you just buy the program, then you're going to see that kind of success. And oftentimes, it's not necessarily true. Like, a lot of times, programs like this, they don't take into account that, you know, maybe you have four or five kids at home, maybe you have family members that need your attention. You can't be all necessarily all in and focus on your business.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
And I just. I want to reinforce what you're saying, grace, is that we as copywriters, we're trained on how to write like this, and we, even though knowing full well what's going on, are just as susceptible to these tactics.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Because it doesn't matter who you are, they're overriding your cognition to tap into, you know, whether or not you believe in your lizard brain. Right? So you're getting past critical thinking to emotional response, and whether or not, you know, that's fear based. Fear of missing out, you know, fear of not being able to pay your bills, fear of not being able, you know, having to go back into, you know, the grind of a nine five, whatever that is. We as copywriters, are trained to understand that kind of language, and yet we are just as susceptible as anybody else.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
And I think we are. We're maybe a little more savvy than most. We're able to recognize. Gosh, that's manipulative. Gosh. But when those. Those words pull at our true pain points, like, oh, gosh, yeah, this is me. I mean, I can't tell you how many short, quick, easy offers I have bought because it is the solution to all of my social media problems. I mean, great. Like, maybe it is. Do I ever go back and look at them? Also, no.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
My poor credit card. Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Oh, my God. Same. Like, my personal development budget this year has been, like, completely obliterated. I excuse it to myself because, you know, I help people on courses. I want to be in the know of how things are done. No, it's because I'm a sucker. I have no critical thinking skills. So therefore, you. You know all that to say, nicole, you're absolutely right. It doesn't matter who you are and how smart you are, you're still just as susceptible as the next person. So I would just caution you before if you're thinking, you know, I'm a copywriter. I know this kind of stuff. You might not as much as you think you do.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
So just if you do sales copy, you have a different perspective than if you do launch copy. I mean, for email copy or if you do website copy, because there are different persuasion techniques and different levels of discussion, for lack of a better word, based on what you're selling and based on what you're writing, for sure.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Yeah, no, I would totally agree with that. And this was something that I had considered getting into until I read this book. I was considering getting more into like affiliate marketing, which is another very slippery slope into MLM type stuff because person a sells to person b, who sells to their network, which, you know, that can ten x your launch, which I absolutely freaking hate that expression. But using affiliate marketing to boost your launch is a tactic that's worked very well for many people.
(18:58):
For example, again, this is not outing anybody specifically, but if you look at big courses like digital course Academy or the copy, just as an example of affiliate marketing, you'll see my inbox every single year gets absolutely flooded with people who are like, you know, by digital course academy using my affiliate link, you know, I get a cut, but you get special bonuses if you sign up with my link. It's not MLM in the purest sense of the word, but you are essentially part of a chain that gets money for every sale.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
I'm going to disagree with you that, I mean, I think there's a potential there and I've been there and it's really with some of the subscription boxes that I've been in that I'm like, oh, there's, oh, it's the same one. It's another person talking about this subscription box, which I don't have a problem with affiliate marketing. I think it comes down to ethics. Again, it is a great way to get in front of other audiences who you can help. And I think, again, it's this gray area. Right. I won't fight you on this.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
You're allowed to disagree, but I think.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
It'S a wonderful way to reach something if it's a product that can truly help other people. I have no problem being an affiliate for other people. You know, especially when it's like, hey, you got to try this. Would I tell people about a really good product if I wasn't getting something out of it? Absolutely. But at the same time, you know, I think we've each spent the time building our business and our audience and, you know, there's no reason to not, yeah, work out something. And I think where you have to draw the line is this an ethical person to sell this to is not, is this an ethical person to sell this to? But is this an ethical use of my time? Is this someone who can really benefit from this?
(20:42):
Or are they, you know, are we selling them something that they don't actually need? And I think that's what it comes down to. And I'll give you the example that I'm specifically thinking of right now is I have. I don't know what else to call it. Like, we'll say colleague who serves a very different audience. We are actually, our audiences have a lot of overlap, but her skills and what she does in her business are at a point where, while I wholeheartedly recommend what she does, I don't have a lot of referrals to give her. It's just not, you know, it's not necessarily a direct one to one thing. And her services are generally a little lower ticket than what she refers people to me for.
(21:24):
So I absolutely give her a referral bonus because I can't do any kind of reciprocation for her or anything that feels like it's reciprocal. If she could send me potentially, and I don't think she will, but, like, she could potentially send me 50% of the clients that she works with, I can send her an occasional colleague. So to me, that feels right to thank her for recommending me or for recommending some of my digital products who can really help her audience. But again, if it's like, I'm selling this to make as much money as I can, which is one of my problems with influencer marketing, which I think.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
We'Re all, like, on the same.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
They're all tend to seem dream together, different flavors. It's like, is it a product you believe in?
Speaker 3 (22:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
You know, the other reason I'm like, but I have affiliates for my course. Right? Like, I'm not. People who have seen it being built or who have taken it can affiliate. I'm not trying to make it personal at all.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
That's not like, no, it's okay. And, like, I will agree with you there that there is an ethical way to approach affiliate marketing. Like, you basically hit the nail on the head. It's about making sure that your audience, who you're trying to sell this thing to, is actually going to benefit from it. And it's not just more crap that people need, that don't need, and they. It dies on their hard drive. And again, I have. I bought so many different programs and whatnot that I have literally never even used or opened after I. And I'm just wondering to myself, why did I even do this? Like, probably, at least, probably a couple thousand dollars this year alone. Right. Like, it just, there's a way to do it that is ethical and is not gross.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
And there's no real way to quantify it, unfortunately. It's, it's, does this feel good or does this feel slimy? And if it feels slimy, don't do it. There's no money that's worth that.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Yeah, it's that argument. Some money is too expensive, right?
Speaker 1 (23:17):
That's right. Some money costs too much.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
For sure. Yeah, we have an episode on that.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
We do. We do. But, yeah. Thank you for your thoughts on that, Erin. Like, I'm curious, Nicole, what have you run into this in a while at all?
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Oh, absolutely. I have been very fortunate that I can be choosy about the clients that I work with and I feel very proud about the types offerings that they're putting out into the wild. But I absolutely, you know, we see this a lot. And I have also been susceptible to it. I have, again, you know, the graveyard, of course, is in my hard drive, the fact that I am absolutely susceptible to a good hard sell.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
For sure.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
For sure. Oh, man. But, yeah, like, I do firmly believe that when you are going to sell a product that you have to make sure that you're actually selling something that your audience is going to need and use as much as possible. I mean, you can't control if somebody doesn't actually need it and still buys it. Like, I can't blame these people that I buy from for my decision in the end, so, but I just think that we need to be, like, intentional about who we're selling to, how we word the language on our sales pages, in our emails, in all of our copy. It really boils down to not using techniques that rob people of their ability to think through a purchase.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
You never want to make somebody feel bad about their situation in order to make a sale. You're allowed to talk about the problems that people can have. I don't have.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
If people are telling you, oh, it's fine, just put it on your credit card, it doesn't matter. Like, run. That is the biggest red flag. I don't care how good the program is that person, it does not have your best interests at heart. Now, there are things that are worth an investment.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
But generally speaking, that's a big, giant red flag.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Yeah. All right, well, let's have a little bit of fun here. Let's have, like, a quick fire round okay, so, Erin, you've already mentioned a red flag. If they, if they want you to get into debt to buy their program, that's a red flag. Nicole, what's your red flag to look for?
Speaker 1 (25:28):
The countdown timer makes me absolutely stabby legitimate.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
If you are legitimately not going to offer this thing or there are legitimately.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Two more spots left.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Great.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Right. You can only serve so many different people. Right? Like, for example, your mom pomps to our program, you're not going to have like 100 people with one to one calls and one to one attention needed. That just would not make sense. So if it actually makes sense, I don't necessarily object to a countdown timer.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
But that will give like a hundred percent, though. Nicole, I'm with you.
Speaker 3 (25:59):
No false urgency. And my favorite is when people do countdown timers in those big, loud, obnoxious primary colors.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
You know, whatever the visual equivalent of, like, a fire alarm is.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's my favorite.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I've never seen, like, a website with the countdown timers that actually has a legitimate, like, autoplay alarm going off, but that's what that makes.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
So mine ties back to the example that I gave you guys earlier. If you don't blank, you are not a blank where they basically attack, they attack your sense of self and your identity if you don't sign up for what they're offering. Yeah. For example, if for a copywriter, you know, you'll never have a six figure business if you don't do this thing, you're not a real blank. If you don't blank, like using really loaded language. Like that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Like equivalency. Is that what that's called? Or. I don't know. There's a word for that's driving me nuts that I'm like, I can't remember, like ultimate, it's ultimatumy, if nothing else.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Yeah, yeah. It's very, like, it's very black and white and it's meant to make you question your very identity. Like, if somebody told me that I wasn't a launch strategist, if I didn't buy their program on how to launch like that, to me, is an attack on my identity as a launch. It's very loaded language and it's meant to make you feel pain and to associate buying from this person with eliminating that pain because they're supposed to be the solution to not being a copywriter, like I want to. And especially in an industry like ours where imposter syndrome, like, runs absolutely rampant. It's rampant like when were talking.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
About this offline, like, we all are, like, oh, how should I price this? Am I. Can I do that?
Speaker 3 (27:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
It doesn't matter how long you've been doing this.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Yeah. So that, to me, is my red flag.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Sorry, I interrupted you, like three times in your. Oh, but I have something to say. It's all good. It's all good, said Aaron.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Never. It's really scary, the line between wanting to increase sales, because I do understand that you're a business. Like, you want to make sure that you can keep your lights on. You know, you want to make sure that you're able to do rewards of your hard work. Like, if I want to go on a vacation once or twice a year, I want to be able to afford it, damn it. How? However, you want to make sure that you're not doing that at the expense of, like, selling your soul, essentially, and making people feel like. Like crap and having people associate your business with feeling icky.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
You never want to feel icky.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
No.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
You never want to feel less than.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Yeah. Agreed.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
And, well, I don't think you can please everyone all the time. I think there's always going to be someone who is unhappy with the way you have presented your offer or sold it. And it's not about you, generally speaking. It's about sometimes. Sometimes we screw up, sometimes we make mistakes. And I think it's okay to be human, but I think it boils down to what is your intent.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
What are you hoping to accomplish by this?
Speaker 3 (29:09):
I also think, like, transparency is the solution to that. Like, you should be very clear. What are you getting in your offers? You're also supposed to share, like, realistic transformation. So, like, for example, within the case of an MLM, like, they in our industry, like, they glamorize the whole six figure thing, which isn't always possible for some people if that's not the typical use case or don't act like it is. And also in your language and your positioning, make people understand this is what it takes to get. To get that kind of result. Yes. Also making sure that you are being very transparent about who it will work for and who it won't work for. So for me, like, whenever I write something, I always say, who this is for, who this is not for. So, for example, I'm relaunching my website.
(30:05):
One of my offers is a launch audit. So I will audit your launch for you and tell you, okay, this is what needs to be changed, what needs to be fixed. For example, I wouldn't suggest that for somebody who's already reached their launch goals and is happy with their launch, they don't. Maybe they don't need it. I also offer a launch roadmap where I tell you how to do something, or a blueprint, rather, not a roadmap. I will tell you how to do Xyz thing. I would not recommend that for somebody who, you know, has launched a million times and already knows what they're doing. It's all about figuring out, okay, who is this for and who's this not for? And being transparent about it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
On the other hand, though, I want to point something out, though, grace, just because someone has launched a million times, there's not an opportunity for them to better. And they may want the validation that they're doing everything they can do to be as successful as possible.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
And they may want an outside opinion. So.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Yeah, that was probably a bad example. I mean, I just want it, like.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
There'S a certain level of transparency that you can do, but you can't also.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Think of every scenario. Sure.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
So I think that's one of the reasons that I really like sales calls for, you know, it's not possible for like, $29 products. It's just not. But if you have anything that's, you know, over four or $500, it may be worthwhile to invite people to hop on a call. Hey, is this for me?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Right.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Why should I choose this offer or the higher ticket one or the lower ticket one?
Speaker 3 (31:28):
Then be honest with them.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
It comes down to honesty, I think.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Realistically, and you should go into the transaction understanding that it is your responsibility to help them make the decision that's best for them. So, you know, the 20 minutes or 15 minutes consultation call is the cost of doing business.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
And for me, that's just about being, like, a good steward of your brand.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
I like that.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
The peanut gallery is giggling away on the floor, lying at my feet.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Nice.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
That's okay.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
This was a very good discussion.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
I think so, too. I just think it's very valuable to have, especially for. And it's something. It's something to think about. Right. You always want to make sure that you're being responsible and just being a good human. Like, I have a. I have a no assholes in my contracts. Legitimately, I do.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
Can we pop that into show notes?
Speaker 3 (32:28):
Sure, yeah, I'll send it over. But legitimately, I. This is something that's very important to me because as somebody who has been in that vulnerable position where I didn't have financial power. I didn't have, you know, a network of people who had my back. I was relying on the ethics and care of people that I bought from. I hope that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
But making sure that you're being a good steward of your brand and showing that you actually care about the people who are you, who you're serving is key. And we have a very great power and great responsibility as copywriters to do that. I think I agree. Oh, Erin, you're on mute.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
It was quiet because the kids were screaming, so I was just going to say thank you for summing that up really nicely. I think this has been an amazing discussion, and I want to thank everyone for tuning in, and we look forward to your feedback on this as well.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Yeah, we'd love to know what everyone's experience has been, you know, good or bad.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Yeah, I want to know, too. Definitely shoot us an email or, you know, leave a comment on social media. Wherever you have, wherever you feel like expressing your opinion, we would definitely want to hear it. What I would really want to know is, what is your number one kind of like, check and balance that you put into your business to make sure that the copy that you write is ethical? If that, if that's important to you. If not, I would love to hear why that's not important to you as well. What's your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
Thank you for listening.
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