October 22, 2024 • 26 mins
Welcome back to The Copy Table! Season 2 is all about the processes your copywriting business needs to thrive. One critical process that trips many copywriters up is contracts and payments! We got you covered.
----
Listen in to Erin, Nicole, and Grace's latest conversation, and you'll learn:
- What a well-made contract will do for you and your clients (it boils down to just one word).
- The mistakes that copywriters often make with their contracts.
- Clauses you can add to your contracts that can help improve your client relationships before you ever start work.
- The different types of payment structures you can set up that make sense for both project and retainer-based work.
- Why the kind of clients you want to serve must inform what's in your contracts and how you handle your payment terms.
Most importantly? You'll learn that getting your clients to sign the dotted line and pay you on time doesn't have to be scary! The takeaway? There really is no one right way to build a copywriting business you love, but it's on you to use your powers of persuasion responsibly! Whether you need actionable tips to market your copywriting business, a push to raise your rates, or the courage to plant your flag in a new niche, we've got you covered. Over the years, we've met some extraordinary people who've helped us, and we're ready to help you avoid the pitfalls that so many copywriters find.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to The Copy Table, the podcast for copywriters who want to get new ideas and inspiration for building and scaling a business you love.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
In this podcast, hosts Grace Fortune, Nicole Morton, and Erin Pennings bring new topics and guests to the table. Every single episode.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
We're spilling the beans on how you can use your interests and expertise to define what success means to you and take steps to achieve it.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome back to season two of the copy table. I'm Erin Pennings, and I'm here with my co hosts, Nicole Morton and Grace Fortune. And this season is all about processes. So today is not the day that grace is, like, all amped up for. It's the next best day, though. Today we're talking about the contracts, payments. We're going touch on some of our favorite clauses, some of our favorite terms, and the whole idea is to make it straightforward for you, maybe get some new ideas to test out. And before we get started, we should probably make a disclaimer that we are not attorneys. This is not legal advice by any means. Whatever your contracts are, make sure to have an attorney check them over.
(01:16):
And so with that, maybe we can kick things off around robin about, you know, our contracts, why we have some of the things we do. Let's not get into our favorite clauses yet, but just kind of general thoughts on contracts for copywriters. Great.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
So I want to kind of go from the angle of, like, a mistake that I've heard a lot of copywriters make. Number one, not having a contract at all. Some copywriters don't use contracts in their business. And for me, that scares the hell out of me because there are so many ways that you can be taken advantage of. If you do not have a contract in place to protect yourself, it's a risk to your business, to your reputation, to how the project is going to go. Not having a contract doesn't set your project off on a very good foot, and it leaves you open to getting not paid. The purpose of a contract is to set guidelines and rules in place for how you're going to engage with your clients.
(02:12):
So don't make the mistake of not having one, because I've seen so many different horror stories from people, especially who are new to the copywriting space.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Depending on the structure of your business, you're leaving yourself open to more than just issues with your business. If your business structure is not such, you know, in the states, if you're not an LLC or an S corp, you're putting your personal assets at risk. So please, do your level best to make sure that you're covering and addressing all the vulnerabilities in your business. And a contract does exactly that.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, 100%. So there's two other things that I want to talk about that are related to contracts, but separate. One, whatever your business name is, insist that all of your contracts are done through your business name, because that is what affords you any purposes. You can make other agreements, like we're hiring Grace Fortune Incorporated. I don't know your official business name, which I should by now, but I don't. And we're going to stipulate that grace fortune does all of the work, that she doesn't subcontract it. That is totally fine. What's not fine is doing grace fortune, the person as an individual contract. I don't know why I'm picking on you. It's because I can see your face, but you make sure you do that. Secondly, if you're doing business in the States, anyone can get an ein number from the IR's.
(03:34):
Even if you're not operating as an LLC, if you're operating as like a sole proprietorship, you can still get the ein to protect your Social Security number so that it's not going out to whoever hires you for copywriting services. Those are probably two of the most important distinctions. I didn't learn those lessons the hard way, incidentally, but they are two of the most distinctions that were made to me very early in the process. And I am like endlessly glad that I've done that. Not because there have been issues, but because I have peace of mind that my stuff, this house, my family, like all the things are protected.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
I love that. I would say like the whole point of the contract is to protect yourself. So you want to have every little thing in place that you possibly can in order to make sure that you are protected. Just because I don't think that people realize often how vulnerable they can be, especially in the US. The US is a pretty litigious society, so people like to sue each other over everything. So you want to make sure that you're covering yourself professionally and personally.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
But I think, you know, I want to add to that too. My attorney also said contracts shouldn't be one sided. They're not just you, but they're also pretty to protect your client. And the whole point is, you know, and I always, when I'm saying, you know, I just have an agreement for you to sign, it looks long, but basically it's saying, I'm going to do what I'm. I say I'm going to do. You're going to pay me for it. We're both acting in good faith and everything remains confidential. In a nutshell, that's what it says. It's like, of course, please read all the terms and the clauses, but in a nutshell, I'm not out to get anyone. I am not out for gotcha moments towards me. I just want good fences. Good fences make good neighbors.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
And if you're very clear about what you're doing and what the scope is, then I've never needed to enforce a contract. We'll just leave it at that.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Same.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
It spells out exactly what happens if things should go sideways.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Right.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
You know, to your point, Erin, for both parties involved, you know, here's how we remedy issues between both parties.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
And I've never had anyone balk at signing contract, either.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Nope, me either.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
They'll say I'd rather do things with a handshake, and it's like, let's at least establish a contract just to, like, have I's dotted, t's crossed, and that's fine.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
But I would be very skeptical of taking on any work without one, even if I knew the person very well.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Just to make things hyper clear. So now that we've laid out, like, what it is in a nutshell, I don't want to get into what are the must haves, because that's a question for the attorneys. What are your favorite things to include in the contract? Are there any clauses that the two of you have started to include or that have heard other copywriters talking about? There.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
There's a clause that I put in my contracts, and it's a little bit crassly worded, but I call it my no assholes clause. Nice. I've become actually kind of well known for this in the copywriting space, but in an, in a nutshell, it basically outlines that I will only work with a certain kind of person who, basically, it's the golden rule. Like, you treat other people as you would want to be treated, so treat others well. Don't be degrading. Don't devalue those who are working with you. Don't provide derogatory or unhelpful feedback of the work that I do, and just treat each other with respect. That's really what that clause boils down to. But I've had so many people comment on that. Like, I've never seen anything like that before. Wow. I had a lot of positive feedback on that. That's what I include.
(07:14):
And because I'm in the launch space, I also have an ROi class where I. It basically says, in a nutshell, because of the nature of the launch phase, a specific result is not guaranteed. I can't guarantee you a six figure launch because there are so many factors in a launch that are outside of my control and outside of the engagement that we're working on together. So basically, your results may vary. And it's not always my fault.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Those are really important, especially in sales, copywriting, specifically. Nicole, are there any things in yours that you wish people would consider?
Speaker 1 (07:51):
I think my two favorite things are you can have whatever you want, but you will be charged for it. So do you need this? Do you need a rush turnaround? Absolutely. Here's what those terms look like. You can have that, but it's not free. You can have face to face meetings over and above the scope of the project. They're not free. I can do on site visits and, you know, as if it's over and above the project, they're not free. So giving them options, but not giving away the farm. And then my second most favorite clause is the pause clause.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yes. Yes.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
And Erin, you can touch on this, too, because I know you've had extensive training on this, but this is the. If you, if you ghost me, I don't wait. I'm not at your beck and call. You have x number of days in which you need to either in a good faith move this project forward or I will park everything and you do not get back in my queue of work for free.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Yeah, I love that. I have a pause clause and a ghosting clause, actually. And I have a meeting cancellation clause. Those are probably my three favorites. The pause is like, and it's not necessarily ghosting on my terms. And that's a separate clause. But it's like if you need to put this project on hold for any reason, of course you can. You'll be responsible for payment of work done to this point. If it's, you know, if we're between installments and there's a project restart fee. So. Well, you know, not only are you not guaranteed your spot in line, but there's a project restart fee of whatever fee it is. Sometimes it's 100, sometimes it's never 100. Sorry. Sometimes it's 500, sometimes it's 1000.
(09:27):
It really depends on the nature of the work and how much time is going to be needed to get back into it. And I've never actually assessed that, but it's in there to, you know, give myself that space. I have a ghosting one, too. That's like, if you disappear for two weeks and don't get back to me, we're done, the project is terminated, and then they're subject to the pause clause to restart. I've not again had the issue with it, but the. There are people who go silent sometimes, who go dark sometimes, and I need them to know that I'm not holding space for them if I don't know when they're coming back, because the expectation can be, oh, well, I'll just go to so and so to get the work done. Great. Fantastic.
(10:08):
I want to be your go to, but if you can give me at least, you know, as much notice as possible. Hey, this is coming sometime in mid September. Hey, this is coming sometime Q four. I'm not sure when, then we can at least be communicating on what that looks like, but otherwise I'm going to assume that we're done for the time being. And if it keeps going, I wouldn't sign another contract with them if it became problematic. The third one is the meeting cancellation clause. You know, in this space, there's a lot of no shows, and that's fine. There's a lot of. It's so hard in the online world to be on time for every meeting. I can't tell you how many times it's been like, I have five minutes. How much more can I get done?
(10:44):
That's not what this meeting missing clause is. This is for the meetings where you knew you had something. You can't just cancel it same day. You need at least 24 hours. Cancellation again, I've never enforced it, but it's a tool that I have. Like, just so you know, I'm waving at this time in the future, I do need to charge for missed meetings because that way you have the space to charge for that. And really, it's about. Legislating is not the right word, but contractually, agreeing to respect each other's time. And it fits into the don't be an asshole clause. But I could be wrong. I think in the states that may be a harder one to contractually hold someone to because it's so subjective. If you can, like, set, what are these specific pain points?
(11:29):
And again, get legal advice on all of this stuff. Again, if you say, not only do I expect you to respect my time, but there's a penalty for not doing so, it just. It's that good fence situation. It lays out the expectations.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Yeah, for sure. And for me, like, the whole no assholes clause. Yeah, I mean, I'm acknowledging that's not legally enforceable by any stretch of the means, but I like to put it in there to kind of set the stage. It makes people think like, oh, race is serious, okay. Even if they end up, like, violating that contract, it gives me the right to say, you know what, I don't want to work with you because you don't respect me for me, it just sets the tone. I never expect to be able to, like, legally take somebody to court over that. Your honor, just to be clear, incidentally.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
That'S another clause that most of your attorneys will insist on too, is if any portion of this agreement is unenforceable, the rest remain. You know, that's the only port that's unenforceable. The rest of it remains, again, not an attorney. So this is legalese. But, you know, the basic idea is, if something's not enforceable, that's fine, we won't enforce that, but we're going to enforce the rest.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Yeah, yeah. Let's kind of get into, like, how can you make a process around sending out your contracts and terms and all that stuff? What I do is, I've already mentioned this, but my terms and conditions and my contracts are a part of my proposal. So it's like we kind of talked about this, but it's basically like a section on its own after the, what comes next portion of it, what people need to do. So I instruct people to read over the contract and ask questions if they don't understand what any of the terms, and then they sign the dotted line, date it, et cetera, and we just kind of go from there. Like, for me, it's all kind of built into my onboarding process as a whole.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
And I like to make it, pay it, like contract, something that you can fill out online, too, because if anyone has to print it out, scan it, resend it, that's a barrier. So, yes, I think anything about the process it's client facing needs to be about removing barriers or obstacles to completion. And I also like to include in the contracts. I include it in the proposal and I reinforce it in the contracts, the payment structure. What is the payment structure of this project? And different projects have different payment structures, but always as part of that system, as soon as that contract comes in, whether it's manual or automatic, that invoice goes out and project work does not begin. You do not schedule anything. You can pencil something in, but nothing set in stone until that payment's in hand.
(14:10):
And that's one way to make sure that you're not getting taken advantage of or you're not doing a bunch of work without something to back it up? Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
So my project terms and conditions are an addendum to my proposal so that if there's any ambiguity, we can address it upfront. And, you know, whether that is a proposal that's being sent over, a proposal that's being presented live over Zoom or in person to make sure that I've established the terms of engagement upfront and my terms and conditions are templatized. So the functions like a master services agreement and then the contract has the payment and engagement terms on that. So my project terms and conditions are basically a standalone document that I don't have to refresh unless something were to come up in the terminology that needs. As a matter of fact, I'm looking at my document right now, and it probably, I have not touched it since 2022, so I need to circle back and see if anything needs to be updated.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
No, I like that, too, that you make. And I think this is what you said. So forgive me if I'm wrong, but you've said any additional work that we do falls under this is subject to these same terms. Is that what I heard you say, Nicole?
Speaker 1 (15:24):
This defines the parameters of the engagement, regardless of what that engagement is. So, you know, one of the terms around what is a proposal, what is a quote, what is the deposit structure, what is payment, what are meetings? What happens when there are changes in scope? What is the time pause clause falls under what is the timeframe? What is the minimum standard of communication? Confidentiality? How do you terminate? How do I absolve myself of risk? To Grace's point, I can guarantee a lot of things, but I can't guarantee ROi. Who owns deliverables pre and post transfer? These are the basic legal terms of our engagement. Then that shouldn't change very much from project to project, if at all. I mean, clearly, I'm looking at 2022. So there you go.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
And you don't want to change your contracts that often either, because every time you do it, you need to bring your attorney in again to make sure it's legal. Does everyone? Probably not. But is it the best possible idea? Yes, 100%. Yeah. And I love that. I also think that you can adapt it, too, to make it fit for a retainer. So are you. And this is not addressed to either Nicole or Grace. This is addressed to the you who's listening. Are you only working on retainers? Make sure your contract is talking about how projects are going to be assigned, how what the bookends are around that. Make sure you have start dates and end dates and, like renewal dates if that's critical, so that your contract doesn't go out of date.
(16:52):
Even if you sign it in 2022 and you're still working with them in 2032, make sure that you're at least covered under the initial terms for that piece. But, you know, I often have mine, so it's like, hey, this is the outline of our work together. After that point, we will, I'm looking at my contract right now. After that point, any additional projects related to this scope will fall under this agreement, too. So we don't have to send a, a contract for every single extension.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
I personally have two different kinds of contracts. I have one specifically for retainer clients, and I have one for project based work. I have myself covered that way. So I think part of your process for contracts and payments really needs to come from what your business needs. What are you offering? What does that look like? And then creating a process that actually works for your business. Like, all three of us have very different businesses, so our contracts are all going to look different because they, we have different needs. Right. So it has to make sense.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Well, and so I agree there, and I think probably the most important part that we haven't touched on yet is payments specifically, and the process around payments and making sure you get paid. And while the contract says they have to pay you, like, that's not always the reality for every copyright, and it's not always the reality that people have the resources to hire attorneys to go after people for the contracts. Let's talk about how you structure different kinds of projects, whether it's a project or whether it's a retainer, to ensure that you're getting paid. There's a lot of different philosophies, and I think it's important that we spend a few minutes covering those. Nicole, do you want touch on that?
(18:33):
Because I know the way that you work with clients makes that be a little bit different sometimes than how grace and I work with clients.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Sure. So a lot of, the majority of my work is project based. So I have a dollar threshold under which it's payment in full and over which there are installments based on what we, what the client and I both feel is fair. So if that's 50% down, 50% due at first draft submission, or in thirds, depending on the scope and the scale of the project for me, and, you know, the way that I was trained it's important to have some leverage in negotiating payments with your clients, that being determining in your master services agreement what is refundable and what is not. The best practice, according to the process that I'm working under, is that deposits are non refundable because you're purchasing my time.
(19:27):
And if I have marked off time for you and there's some sort of conflict and we have to either table or terminate a project, I can't get that time back. And then if it is installments, the leverage that I use is that edits and final submissions are held until the balance of the project is paid. So there's a lot of different ways to structure that. And it works very well for projects because there's a very distinct start and a very distinct end date. So that's what has worked best for me and my business. But I know retainers have a very.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Different structure, and I think it depends on whether your retainer is deliverable based, time based, or somewhere in between similar to you. I have a threshold for pay in full versus paying installments. Generally speaking, I like to do installments based one of two ways. Again, sometimes it's time based. So, like, all right, this is broken up into four payments, payable every 30 days, or it's broken up into four payments based on the phase of the project. And here's when this is due. And then work halts and does not go further if the payment's not received. And I think I give them a seven day grace period from the time that the invoice is due. So there's that piece. The other piece is for retainers. Those are payable. They're usually invoiced the first of the month and due right away. There's some exceptions.
(20:50):
I have large corporate clients who need to be net 30, but they're always invoiced at the start of the month. So there's always some working at the back end, and I have not found solution for that. But generally speaking, those are also due the first of the month, you know, do within seven days of receipt, and then payment continues. And again, then you have the contract on the back end to say, look, if you don't pay, we're not working. You're going to be charged these fees, which must be paid in full before work continues.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Yeah, and I wanted to kind of touch on something you said. So, Erin, it sounds like there's some flexibility in there because like you said, you have large corporate clients who have net 30, and then you have ones that are, you know, you give them a seven day grace period, but it's due immediately. So I think that having that flexibility and understanding of the kind of clients that you're working with when you're creating your contract and payment structures, I think that's a really important point to make. So that's something you need to consider. For anybody listening to this, understand who your clients are, what their needs are. Cause if you wanna work with corporate clients and you refuse to budge on an immediate due date, you might not get the clients that you want. Right.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Very good point.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Yeah. So consider that. Be flexible and understanding to a point. If you really don't want to budge on the whole immediate do type situation, but you want to work with corporate clients, maybe corporate clients aren't for you. That's something that you just need to give some thought to.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
That's a really good point, Grace. Yeah. And I think there's some financial solvency that has to be a factor. If you are just starting out, net 30 is going to be hard to do because you're not going to have the balance in your bank. Most likely, if you're bootstrapping it, that is to set that aside or to be able to hold off and pay yourself later. So that may be something you want to work up to. On the other hand, you can say, look, I get that this is net 30. I need to invoice you up front. We'll start working as soon as the deposit comes in. And a lot of times they're understanding about that. But you need to be comfortable enough in your own shoes and willing to say no if they say no. If that's a deal breaker.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. We need to identify your clients needs and your needs in order to come up with payment structures that work for you. But from a process standpoint, making those decisions and deciding what your business is going to offer and what you're going to do is really what the takeaway is here. Making those decisions from a business needs and a personal needs standpoint.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Well, I think. I think we've. Nicole, do you have other anything?
Speaker 1 (23:20):
I'll say one other thing to take in. Again, we are not your attorneys, and this is not legal advice, but the contract is where you try and dispel any ambiguity. And I think with copywriting in particular, one of the things that trips us up in the exchange of deliverables or the exchange of services is defining terms. I know there's been a lot of discussion in our community about what is a revision. You guarantee a certain number of rounds of revisions. So defining specific terms in either your master services agreement or your contract is going to be critical to maintaining a good working relationship with your prospect.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Yeah, rounds of revisions is one of the most important things. We didn't necessarily touch on that, so I'm glad that you brought that up. I think. Oh, gosh, now I'm like, and, and I think it's also important to say what's not included. A lot of times with website copy people, I would say the general business owning public may think that design is included and they may not understand that you write the word, you help define the structure. So I'm always clear, design and programming is not included. If you need introductions, I'm happy to make them, or I can even refer you ahead of time. So you know what the cost is going to be. Or I might even say the cost is estimated to be this if I'm referring them to a specific person.
(24:37):
But that's a separate agreement between you and the designer or developer. Right. So just to make sure.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Oh, there's so much more that we can say on this, but we're not going to, we're going to let you go. But before we do any final things that either of you want to add in here, because I know, like everything that we say, it may trigger ideas. And the other person on the call.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Sitting down, taking the time out to just make the decisions, what you want to add to your contracts and your payment structure, figuring out what makes sense for your business, what you need is really how you're going to make this into a standardized process. Being decisive and figuring out what your needs are.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
You don't have to start from scratch. There are certainly plenty of resources and services out there, even copywriters in our space who have contract templates that are really excellent jumping off points. I know I've gotten products from Abby Woodcock with the freelancer co op. I know Bobbi Klink has premade templates that you can use as a jumping off point. So do research, network with your peers and find out. You find some good resources that'll get.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
You started on the right path, I would say. I think I got my first contract template from the copywriter club underground. Rachel Pilcher is just releasing some great freelancers as well.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Well, that'll wrap us up for the contracts and payments episode. If you do have any questions at all or want to reach out to us with any comments, send us an email at hello at thecopytable.com or reach out to us on socials. We're happy to help anytime.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Thank you for listening. See you in our next episode, which is going to be. Drum roll, please.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
I'm so excited.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Also known as the Grace show.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Oh, gosh, I look forward to talking about that. We'll see you soon.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Catch you next time.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Bye.
Welcome to The Copy Table, the podcast for copywriters who want to get new ideas and inspiration for building and scaling a business you love.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
In this podcast, hosts Grace Fortune, Nicole Morton, and Erin Pennings bring new topics and guests to the table. Every single episode.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
We're spilling the beans on how you can use your interests and expertise to define what success means to you and take steps to achieve it.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome back to season two of the copy table. I'm Erin Pennings, and I'm here with my co hosts, Nicole Morton and Grace Fortune. And this season is all about processes. So today is not the day that grace is, like, all amped up for. It's the next best day, though. Today we're talking about the contracts, payments. We're going touch on some of our favorite clauses, some of our favorite terms, and the whole idea is to make it straightforward for you, maybe get some new ideas to test out. And before we get started, we should probably make a disclaimer that we are not attorneys. This is not legal advice by any means. Whatever your contracts are, make sure to have an attorney check them over.
(01:16):
And so with that, maybe we can kick things off around robin about, you know, our contracts, why we have some of the things we do. Let's not get into our favorite clauses yet, but just kind of general thoughts on contracts for copywriters. Great.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
So I want to kind of go from the angle of, like, a mistake that I've heard a lot of copywriters make. Number one, not having a contract at all. Some copywriters don't use contracts in their business. And for me, that scares the hell out of me because there are so many ways that you can be taken advantage of. If you do not have a contract in place to protect yourself, it's a risk to your business, to your reputation, to how the project is going to go. Not having a contract doesn't set your project off on a very good foot, and it leaves you open to getting not paid. The purpose of a contract is to set guidelines and rules in place for how you're going to engage with your clients.
(02:12):
So don't make the mistake of not having one, because I've seen so many different horror stories from people, especially who are new to the copywriting space.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Depending on the structure of your business, you're leaving yourself open to more than just issues with your business. If your business structure is not such, you know, in the states, if you're not an LLC or an S corp, you're putting your personal assets at risk. So please, do your level best to make sure that you're covering and addressing all the vulnerabilities in your business. And a contract does exactly that.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, 100%. So there's two other things that I want to talk about that are related to contracts, but separate. One, whatever your business name is, insist that all of your contracts are done through your business name, because that is what affords you any purposes. You can make other agreements, like we're hiring Grace Fortune Incorporated. I don't know your official business name, which I should by now, but I don't. And we're going to stipulate that grace fortune does all of the work, that she doesn't subcontract it. That is totally fine. What's not fine is doing grace fortune, the person as an individual contract. I don't know why I'm picking on you. It's because I can see your face, but you make sure you do that. Secondly, if you're doing business in the States, anyone can get an ein number from the IR's.
(03:34):
Even if you're not operating as an LLC, if you're operating as like a sole proprietorship, you can still get the ein to protect your Social Security number so that it's not going out to whoever hires you for copywriting services. Those are probably two of the most important distinctions. I didn't learn those lessons the hard way, incidentally, but they are two of the most distinctions that were made to me very early in the process. And I am like endlessly glad that I've done that. Not because there have been issues, but because I have peace of mind that my stuff, this house, my family, like all the things are protected.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
I love that. I would say like the whole point of the contract is to protect yourself. So you want to have every little thing in place that you possibly can in order to make sure that you are protected. Just because I don't think that people realize often how vulnerable they can be, especially in the US. The US is a pretty litigious society, so people like to sue each other over everything. So you want to make sure that you're covering yourself professionally and personally.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
But I think, you know, I want to add to that too. My attorney also said contracts shouldn't be one sided. They're not just you, but they're also pretty to protect your client. And the whole point is, you know, and I always, when I'm saying, you know, I just have an agreement for you to sign, it looks long, but basically it's saying, I'm going to do what I'm. I say I'm going to do. You're going to pay me for it. We're both acting in good faith and everything remains confidential. In a nutshell, that's what it says. It's like, of course, please read all the terms and the clauses, but in a nutshell, I'm not out to get anyone. I am not out for gotcha moments towards me. I just want good fences. Good fences make good neighbors.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
And if you're very clear about what you're doing and what the scope is, then I've never needed to enforce a contract. We'll just leave it at that.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Same.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
It spells out exactly what happens if things should go sideways.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Right.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
You know, to your point, Erin, for both parties involved, you know, here's how we remedy issues between both parties.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
And I've never had anyone balk at signing contract, either.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Nope, me either.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
They'll say I'd rather do things with a handshake, and it's like, let's at least establish a contract just to, like, have I's dotted, t's crossed, and that's fine.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
But I would be very skeptical of taking on any work without one, even if I knew the person very well.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Just to make things hyper clear. So now that we've laid out, like, what it is in a nutshell, I don't want to get into what are the must haves, because that's a question for the attorneys. What are your favorite things to include in the contract? Are there any clauses that the two of you have started to include or that have heard other copywriters talking about? There.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
There's a clause that I put in my contracts, and it's a little bit crassly worded, but I call it my no assholes clause. Nice. I've become actually kind of well known for this in the copywriting space, but in an, in a nutshell, it basically outlines that I will only work with a certain kind of person who, basically, it's the golden rule. Like, you treat other people as you would want to be treated, so treat others well. Don't be degrading. Don't devalue those who are working with you. Don't provide derogatory or unhelpful feedback of the work that I do, and just treat each other with respect. That's really what that clause boils down to. But I've had so many people comment on that. Like, I've never seen anything like that before. Wow. I had a lot of positive feedback on that. That's what I include.
(07:14):
And because I'm in the launch space, I also have an ROi class where I. It basically says, in a nutshell, because of the nature of the launch phase, a specific result is not guaranteed. I can't guarantee you a six figure launch because there are so many factors in a launch that are outside of my control and outside of the engagement that we're working on together. So basically, your results may vary. And it's not always my fault.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Those are really important, especially in sales, copywriting, specifically. Nicole, are there any things in yours that you wish people would consider?
Speaker 1 (07:51):
I think my two favorite things are you can have whatever you want, but you will be charged for it. So do you need this? Do you need a rush turnaround? Absolutely. Here's what those terms look like. You can have that, but it's not free. You can have face to face meetings over and above the scope of the project. They're not free. I can do on site visits and, you know, as if it's over and above the project, they're not free. So giving them options, but not giving away the farm. And then my second most favorite clause is the pause clause.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yes. Yes.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
And Erin, you can touch on this, too, because I know you've had extensive training on this, but this is the. If you, if you ghost me, I don't wait. I'm not at your beck and call. You have x number of days in which you need to either in a good faith move this project forward or I will park everything and you do not get back in my queue of work for free.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Yeah, I love that. I have a pause clause and a ghosting clause, actually. And I have a meeting cancellation clause. Those are probably my three favorites. The pause is like, and it's not necessarily ghosting on my terms. And that's a separate clause. But it's like if you need to put this project on hold for any reason, of course you can. You'll be responsible for payment of work done to this point. If it's, you know, if we're between installments and there's a project restart fee. So. Well, you know, not only are you not guaranteed your spot in line, but there's a project restart fee of whatever fee it is. Sometimes it's 100, sometimes it's never 100. Sorry. Sometimes it's 500, sometimes it's 1000.
(09:27):
It really depends on the nature of the work and how much time is going to be needed to get back into it. And I've never actually assessed that, but it's in there to, you know, give myself that space. I have a ghosting one, too. That's like, if you disappear for two weeks and don't get back to me, we're done, the project is terminated, and then they're subject to the pause clause to restart. I've not again had the issue with it, but the. There are people who go silent sometimes, who go dark sometimes, and I need them to know that I'm not holding space for them if I don't know when they're coming back, because the expectation can be, oh, well, I'll just go to so and so to get the work done. Great. Fantastic.
(10:08):
I want to be your go to, but if you can give me at least, you know, as much notice as possible. Hey, this is coming sometime in mid September. Hey, this is coming sometime Q four. I'm not sure when, then we can at least be communicating on what that looks like, but otherwise I'm going to assume that we're done for the time being. And if it keeps going, I wouldn't sign another contract with them if it became problematic. The third one is the meeting cancellation clause. You know, in this space, there's a lot of no shows, and that's fine. There's a lot of. It's so hard in the online world to be on time for every meeting. I can't tell you how many times it's been like, I have five minutes. How much more can I get done?
(10:44):
That's not what this meeting missing clause is. This is for the meetings where you knew you had something. You can't just cancel it same day. You need at least 24 hours. Cancellation again, I've never enforced it, but it's a tool that I have. Like, just so you know, I'm waving at this time in the future, I do need to charge for missed meetings because that way you have the space to charge for that. And really, it's about. Legislating is not the right word, but contractually, agreeing to respect each other's time. And it fits into the don't be an asshole clause. But I could be wrong. I think in the states that may be a harder one to contractually hold someone to because it's so subjective. If you can, like, set, what are these specific pain points?
(11:29):
And again, get legal advice on all of this stuff. Again, if you say, not only do I expect you to respect my time, but there's a penalty for not doing so, it just. It's that good fence situation. It lays out the expectations.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Yeah, for sure. And for me, like, the whole no assholes clause. Yeah, I mean, I'm acknowledging that's not legally enforceable by any stretch of the means, but I like to put it in there to kind of set the stage. It makes people think like, oh, race is serious, okay. Even if they end up, like, violating that contract, it gives me the right to say, you know what, I don't want to work with you because you don't respect me for me, it just sets the tone. I never expect to be able to, like, legally take somebody to court over that. Your honor, just to be clear, incidentally.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
That'S another clause that most of your attorneys will insist on too, is if any portion of this agreement is unenforceable, the rest remain. You know, that's the only port that's unenforceable. The rest of it remains, again, not an attorney. So this is legalese. But, you know, the basic idea is, if something's not enforceable, that's fine, we won't enforce that, but we're going to enforce the rest.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Yeah, yeah. Let's kind of get into, like, how can you make a process around sending out your contracts and terms and all that stuff? What I do is, I've already mentioned this, but my terms and conditions and my contracts are a part of my proposal. So it's like we kind of talked about this, but it's basically like a section on its own after the, what comes next portion of it, what people need to do. So I instruct people to read over the contract and ask questions if they don't understand what any of the terms, and then they sign the dotted line, date it, et cetera, and we just kind of go from there. Like, for me, it's all kind of built into my onboarding process as a whole.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
And I like to make it, pay it, like contract, something that you can fill out online, too, because if anyone has to print it out, scan it, resend it, that's a barrier. So, yes, I think anything about the process it's client facing needs to be about removing barriers or obstacles to completion. And I also like to include in the contracts. I include it in the proposal and I reinforce it in the contracts, the payment structure. What is the payment structure of this project? And different projects have different payment structures, but always as part of that system, as soon as that contract comes in, whether it's manual or automatic, that invoice goes out and project work does not begin. You do not schedule anything. You can pencil something in, but nothing set in stone until that payment's in hand.
(14:10):
And that's one way to make sure that you're not getting taken advantage of or you're not doing a bunch of work without something to back it up? Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
So my project terms and conditions are an addendum to my proposal so that if there's any ambiguity, we can address it upfront. And, you know, whether that is a proposal that's being sent over, a proposal that's being presented live over Zoom or in person to make sure that I've established the terms of engagement upfront and my terms and conditions are templatized. So the functions like a master services agreement and then the contract has the payment and engagement terms on that. So my project terms and conditions are basically a standalone document that I don't have to refresh unless something were to come up in the terminology that needs. As a matter of fact, I'm looking at my document right now, and it probably, I have not touched it since 2022, so I need to circle back and see if anything needs to be updated.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
No, I like that, too, that you make. And I think this is what you said. So forgive me if I'm wrong, but you've said any additional work that we do falls under this is subject to these same terms. Is that what I heard you say, Nicole?
Speaker 1 (15:24):
This defines the parameters of the engagement, regardless of what that engagement is. So, you know, one of the terms around what is a proposal, what is a quote, what is the deposit structure, what is payment, what are meetings? What happens when there are changes in scope? What is the time pause clause falls under what is the timeframe? What is the minimum standard of communication? Confidentiality? How do you terminate? How do I absolve myself of risk? To Grace's point, I can guarantee a lot of things, but I can't guarantee ROi. Who owns deliverables pre and post transfer? These are the basic legal terms of our engagement. Then that shouldn't change very much from project to project, if at all. I mean, clearly, I'm looking at 2022. So there you go.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
And you don't want to change your contracts that often either, because every time you do it, you need to bring your attorney in again to make sure it's legal. Does everyone? Probably not. But is it the best possible idea? Yes, 100%. Yeah. And I love that. I also think that you can adapt it, too, to make it fit for a retainer. So are you. And this is not addressed to either Nicole or Grace. This is addressed to the you who's listening. Are you only working on retainers? Make sure your contract is talking about how projects are going to be assigned, how what the bookends are around that. Make sure you have start dates and end dates and, like renewal dates if that's critical, so that your contract doesn't go out of date.
(16:52):
Even if you sign it in 2022 and you're still working with them in 2032, make sure that you're at least covered under the initial terms for that piece. But, you know, I often have mine, so it's like, hey, this is the outline of our work together. After that point, we will, I'm looking at my contract right now. After that point, any additional projects related to this scope will fall under this agreement, too. So we don't have to send a, a contract for every single extension.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
I personally have two different kinds of contracts. I have one specifically for retainer clients, and I have one for project based work. I have myself covered that way. So I think part of your process for contracts and payments really needs to come from what your business needs. What are you offering? What does that look like? And then creating a process that actually works for your business. Like, all three of us have very different businesses, so our contracts are all going to look different because they, we have different needs. Right. So it has to make sense.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Well, and so I agree there, and I think probably the most important part that we haven't touched on yet is payments specifically, and the process around payments and making sure you get paid. And while the contract says they have to pay you, like, that's not always the reality for every copyright, and it's not always the reality that people have the resources to hire attorneys to go after people for the contracts. Let's talk about how you structure different kinds of projects, whether it's a project or whether it's a retainer, to ensure that you're getting paid. There's a lot of different philosophies, and I think it's important that we spend a few minutes covering those. Nicole, do you want touch on that?
(18:33):
Because I know the way that you work with clients makes that be a little bit different sometimes than how grace and I work with clients.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Sure. So a lot of, the majority of my work is project based. So I have a dollar threshold under which it's payment in full and over which there are installments based on what we, what the client and I both feel is fair. So if that's 50% down, 50% due at first draft submission, or in thirds, depending on the scope and the scale of the project for me, and, you know, the way that I was trained it's important to have some leverage in negotiating payments with your clients, that being determining in your master services agreement what is refundable and what is not. The best practice, according to the process that I'm working under, is that deposits are non refundable because you're purchasing my time.
(19:27):
And if I have marked off time for you and there's some sort of conflict and we have to either table or terminate a project, I can't get that time back. And then if it is installments, the leverage that I use is that edits and final submissions are held until the balance of the project is paid. So there's a lot of different ways to structure that. And it works very well for projects because there's a very distinct start and a very distinct end date. So that's what has worked best for me and my business. But I know retainers have a very.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Different structure, and I think it depends on whether your retainer is deliverable based, time based, or somewhere in between similar to you. I have a threshold for pay in full versus paying installments. Generally speaking, I like to do installments based one of two ways. Again, sometimes it's time based. So, like, all right, this is broken up into four payments, payable every 30 days, or it's broken up into four payments based on the phase of the project. And here's when this is due. And then work halts and does not go further if the payment's not received. And I think I give them a seven day grace period from the time that the invoice is due. So there's that piece. The other piece is for retainers. Those are payable. They're usually invoiced the first of the month and due right away. There's some exceptions.
(20:50):
I have large corporate clients who need to be net 30, but they're always invoiced at the start of the month. So there's always some working at the back end, and I have not found solution for that. But generally speaking, those are also due the first of the month, you know, do within seven days of receipt, and then payment continues. And again, then you have the contract on the back end to say, look, if you don't pay, we're not working. You're going to be charged these fees, which must be paid in full before work continues.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Yeah, and I wanted to kind of touch on something you said. So, Erin, it sounds like there's some flexibility in there because like you said, you have large corporate clients who have net 30, and then you have ones that are, you know, you give them a seven day grace period, but it's due immediately. So I think that having that flexibility and understanding of the kind of clients that you're working with when you're creating your contract and payment structures, I think that's a really important point to make. So that's something you need to consider. For anybody listening to this, understand who your clients are, what their needs are. Cause if you wanna work with corporate clients and you refuse to budge on an immediate due date, you might not get the clients that you want. Right.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Very good point.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Yeah. So consider that. Be flexible and understanding to a point. If you really don't want to budge on the whole immediate do type situation, but you want to work with corporate clients, maybe corporate clients aren't for you. That's something that you just need to give some thought to.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
That's a really good point, Grace. Yeah. And I think there's some financial solvency that has to be a factor. If you are just starting out, net 30 is going to be hard to do because you're not going to have the balance in your bank. Most likely, if you're bootstrapping it, that is to set that aside or to be able to hold off and pay yourself later. So that may be something you want to work up to. On the other hand, you can say, look, I get that this is net 30. I need to invoice you up front. We'll start working as soon as the deposit comes in. And a lot of times they're understanding about that. But you need to be comfortable enough in your own shoes and willing to say no if they say no. If that's a deal breaker.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. We need to identify your clients needs and your needs in order to come up with payment structures that work for you. But from a process standpoint, making those decisions and deciding what your business is going to offer and what you're going to do is really what the takeaway is here. Making those decisions from a business needs and a personal needs standpoint.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Well, I think. I think we've. Nicole, do you have other anything?
Speaker 1 (23:20):
I'll say one other thing to take in. Again, we are not your attorneys, and this is not legal advice, but the contract is where you try and dispel any ambiguity. And I think with copywriting in particular, one of the things that trips us up in the exchange of deliverables or the exchange of services is defining terms. I know there's been a lot of discussion in our community about what is a revision. You guarantee a certain number of rounds of revisions. So defining specific terms in either your master services agreement or your contract is going to be critical to maintaining a good working relationship with your prospect.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Yeah, rounds of revisions is one of the most important things. We didn't necessarily touch on that, so I'm glad that you brought that up. I think. Oh, gosh, now I'm like, and, and I think it's also important to say what's not included. A lot of times with website copy people, I would say the general business owning public may think that design is included and they may not understand that you write the word, you help define the structure. So I'm always clear, design and programming is not included. If you need introductions, I'm happy to make them, or I can even refer you ahead of time. So you know what the cost is going to be. Or I might even say the cost is estimated to be this if I'm referring them to a specific person.
(24:37):
But that's a separate agreement between you and the designer or developer. Right. So just to make sure.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Oh, there's so much more that we can say on this, but we're not going to, we're going to let you go. But before we do any final things that either of you want to add in here, because I know, like everything that we say, it may trigger ideas. And the other person on the call.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
Sitting down, taking the time out to just make the decisions, what you want to add to your contracts and your payment structure, figuring out what makes sense for your business, what you need is really how you're going to make this into a standardized process. Being decisive and figuring out what your needs are.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
You don't have to start from scratch. There are certainly plenty of resources and services out there, even copywriters in our space who have contract templates that are really excellent jumping off points. I know I've gotten products from Abby Woodcock with the freelancer co op. I know Bobbi Klink has premade templates that you can use as a jumping off point. So do research, network with your peers and find out. You find some good resources that'll get.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
You started on the right path, I would say. I think I got my first contract template from the copywriter club underground. Rachel Pilcher is just releasing some great freelancers as well.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Well, that'll wrap us up for the contracts and payments episode. If you do have any questions at all or want to reach out to us with any comments, send us an email at hello at thecopytable.com or reach out to us on socials. We're happy to help anytime.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Thank you for listening. See you in our next episode, which is going to be. Drum roll, please.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
I'm so excited.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Also known as the Grace show.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
Oh, gosh, I look forward to talking about that. We'll see you soon.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Catch you next time.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Bye.
Popular Podcasts
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!