November 5, 2024 • 38 mins
Welcome back to The Copy Table! Season 2 is all about the processes your copywriting business needs to thrive. Want to know how to get your projects started off on the right foot? Clinch it every single time with an onboarding process! (Fun fact: if processes were ice cream, Grace would pick this flavour every time!)
This is a killer chance to win over your clients from the start, and we want to share what we know with you.
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Listen in to Erin, Nicole, and Grace's latest conversation, and you'll learn:
- Why having a process for onboarding is so damn important (it’s all about creating standards for your business!)
- The different stages of onboarding (and the tools we <3 at eery budget).
- Strategies for managing tricky clients and maintaining communication (including how to identify those client red flags)
Most importantly? You'll learn that you don’t need to rigidly stick to your onboarding process, but you should have one in place to make an amazing experience out of working with you every single time. The takeaway? There really is no one right way to build a copywriting business you love, but it's on you to use your powers of persuasion responsibly! Whether you need actionable tips to market your copywriting business, a push to raise your rates, or the courage to plant your flag in a new niche, we've got you covered. Over the years, we've met some extraordinary people who've helped us, and we're ready to help you avoid the pitfalls that so many copywriters find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nicole M. (00:02):
Welcome to the Copy Table, the podcast for copywriters who want to get new ideas and inspiration for building and scaling a business you love.
Erin P. (00:10):
In this podcast, hosts Grace Fortune, Nicole Morton, and Erin Pennings bring new topics and guests to the table.
Grace F. (00:17):
Every single episode, we're spilling the beans on how you can use your interests and expertise to define what success means to you and take steps to achieve it. Welcome, everybody back to another episode of the Coffee Table. Today, me, Grace Fortune and Nicole Morton and Erin Pennings are going to be talking about one of my favorite systems and processes to set up, and that is onboarding. Yay. Onboarding. Yay. So all three of us have a special love of onboarding, and we decided to get into this topic because, to me, it's one of the most important processes you can come up with because it just lays out a groundwork and foundation for a really successful relationship with your client. And I'm going to just go into kind of the highlights of what we're expecting to cover.
(01:09):
We want to keep this episode to about 20 or so minutes, and we're going to talk about the need for balance between the systems and a relationship and personal touches in your onboarding systems, as well as how to blend them together at every stage in the onboarding process. So we're going to be talking about the initial outreach and discovery calls. We're going to talk a little bit about the contract and agreements, the welcome package, kickoff calls, and an onboarding checklist. We're also going to talk about how to handle difficult clients when you're onboarding. And finally, a few little bonus tips that we like to use in our businesses to make our onboarding successful. So are you guys excited as I am?
Nicole M. (01:52):
We're never as excited as you are. Processes.
Erin P. (01:57):
And I think it's important to, like, mention before we dive in. We started, like, last season, just recording an episode onboarding, and then it. It was like 60 minutes, and we're like, wait, wait, wait. Shouldn't we do a whole season on processes? And so this conversation is not new to the three of us.
Grace F. (02:16):
Right.
Erin P. (02:17):
But we wanted to try to keep this more focused for you because we're assuming that if you're tuning in for an episode onboarding, you may not want to talk about the discovery call or payments and contracts. So we broke those out into separate episodes.
Grace F. (02:32):
So.
Erin P. (02:33):
But we're going to talk about them because of course we're going to, because this is us.
Grace F. (02:39):
Yeah. It's actually funny that you say that, because before we started Recording this, we actually had a little, we had a mini debate on when onboarding actually really starts. For me, like in my opinion, onboarding really starts as soon as you get contact from a potential client. Because for me it's all about laying the foundation for the relationship. Like you want to make an amazing first impression from the very first outreach. But Erin, you had a little bit of a different opinion.
Erin P. (03:05):
Yeah, I do. When I think about onboarding, it is only successful if you've laid the groundwork for it. And I see discovery as the first opportunity to kind of lay the groundwork for it. But discovery to me is more about matchmaking. Is this a fit? Do we like each other? Do, do we want to work together? And then I see like sales as the here's what it's going to cost, here's the flow where I'm also again continuing to set the groundwork for. Here's what you're going to expect working like this so that you know when you sign on the dotted line, like what you're getting. And then to me, onboarding truly starts while it bleeds over. I guess in my, my way of thinking, it really doesn't really start until you have that contract in place.
(03:47):
Because once that is happening, that's when I can then schedule the kickoff call. That's when I can schedule the project into my flow. Because while I might like pencil it in, I'm not putting all my eggs in any single basket until I don't say till there's cold hard cash in my bank account, but until there's at least a commitment for this, a legal agreement.
Nicole M. (04:10):
Yes. And that's the most important part, is that you've covered all your bases. You always prepare for the worst, assume goodwill and the best, but you need that protection for your business.
Grace F. (04:20):
Yeah, I would agree with that for sure. So I would love to get your guys opinion on like balancing out between having systems in place and building a relationship with your clients. Because for me, like really good onboarding, like I've already said, it builds that foundation to make the project successful. But how do you guys feel about inputting a system in place and relationship building? Like, how do you feel like it works in tandem together?
Erin P. (04:46):
I want to ask you a clarifying question, if I may first before either one of us answers. And that is when you say systems versus relationship building, what specifically do you mean? Because I don't see them as mutually exclusive or so I'm curious what you mean by the balance. Tell me more.
Grace F. (05:05):
I've Noticed that some people tend to go from one extreme to the other where they kind of sacrifice the process and the systems that they use in lieu of just having a super personal touch where they have everything done as they're going through the onboarding process, trying to build a custom experience for each and every new client in order to wow them. But they don't have, yeah, they don't have like an actual process in place and they're reinventing the wheel every single time they get a new client and then they get overwhelmed and it's really frustrating. And then I mean there are some people who go to the other extreme where they have a very rigid process in place but they don't really incorporate relationship building into it. That's what I mean.
Nicole M. (05:49):
That's a really interesting, that's an interesting take.
Erin P. (05:52):
Yeah, it is.
Grace F. (05:53):
So I'd love to know your guys thoughts on that. Like how do you guys approach it and like what is your opinion on.
Erin P. (05:57):
This when given the opportunity? I always have opinions. As you have learned, 100%.
Grace F. (06:06):
I'm here for it. What do you think, Nicole?
Nicole M. (06:09):
I'm going to expose a little soft underbelly here. So I am nothing if not guilty of over serving clients. So I don't have as many automations in place as I should as I could. Rather I put a lot more weight towards the comfort and I can't figure out what's the right word but aside from the comfortability of the client during the onboarding process, you know, over describing, you know, expectations, over explaining just to make sure that everybody's clear on all sides. And I know that I could be doing more work about making that a little bit more streamlined and maybe just a little bit more templatized because I don't know that all of that comes from my insecurities rather than the quality of client that I'm onboarding.
Grace F. (07:02):
Okay. What about you, Erin?
Erin P. (07:04):
And I would say I'm pretty systematized, but I would say I'm not rigid. Sales is something that I've always enjoyed. I've done like, I don't know, I had a short stint as a furniture salesperson while I was in between my summer Alaska tourism jobs. And I've always enjoyed it and I've been through some really awesome sales training. So I don't know that it's systemic in that it's something that I have to follow repeatedly every time. But there is just a process that is intrinsic to the way that I see things. And so I don't think, I think I've systematized relationship building. It's like, okay, I know how to make coffee calls really work for me. I know how to make the sales process really work for me and how to make it effective for the client side.
(07:49):
So, I mean, people die on the vine all the time. That sounds really bad. Potential projects die on the vine all the time. It's just the nature of it.
Nicole M. (07:56):
Yes.
Erin P. (07:59):
There'S Erin with her strange aronisms there.
Grace F. (08:03):
All good, you know, so.
Erin P. (08:04):
And then I have a pretty solid proposal that doesn't change a whole lot. Even though the projects that I, I do are wildly different and wildly, shall we say, customized for project. But it's like, for each one, it's like, okay, so what are the phases? There's an discovery phase, there's a doing phase, there's an edits phase, and if there's other projects, then those are the phases. So I know how to work them into the phases and they go into the contract, which is again, laying the groundwork for this and then the kickoff call. I may ask different questions, but it's always the same flow. So thinking on my feet now while we're talking, I think that is intrinsic to relationship building for a client because if they know that there's a process, you've already established some trust right there.
(08:58):
That makes it much easier to deliver on whatever you promised. Not only do you tell them what you're going to do, you tell them how you're going to do it. And then when it comes time to do the actual onboarding, they already have some expectations in place. So literally all that you have to do is like reiterate, hey, we said we're going to do this now. Here's when we're going to do this now. Here are the specific dates where we're going to start, here's the next step, and here's what you can expect. And it's really just reiterating it, going into more detail and then kind of holding their hand every step of the way so that they know, like, all the project update emails that I do are like, here's what we're doing now, here's what's happening next.
(09:35):
So that everyone always knows what's next. Yeah, that's a really long winded way of saying it's not to me.
Grace F. (09:46):
Okay, so that's really interesting. This has kind of made me realize that you and I have a little bit more in common with our onboarding processes than I thought. One thing that you and I have in common is that our projects tend to be very different each time. So there has to be a level of flexibility when it comes to the systems and processes, but the flow is still the same. There's the contract. There's like any kind of agreements and like the discovery call, those are kind of the same, but they need to be tweaked for each different client. Like, I might ask different questions, I'll put different points in my contracts and agreements, but the flow is still the same. And then once they sign on, you know, they get a welcome package, we have a kickoff call.
(10:28):
Then there's like a checklist that they go through on how to give feedback and all that kind of stuff. But it's. It's tweaked and customized a bit for every single client. So that's.
Erin P. (10:37):
I love your welcome packages, too. I'm allergic to getting welcome packages because I never will look at them. I know I will never look at them. So I do the same thing, but I do it in a live call.
Grace F. (10:48):
Oh, okay. Okay.
Erin P. (10:50):
Yeah, so it, you know, it's just interesting how we each operate. But you need that to not be live.
Grace F. (10:58):
Yeah.
Erin P. (10:59):
I think onboarding is going to be like, if we're doing the takeaway for the audience.
Grace F. (11:03):
Yeah.
Erin P. (11:04):
What are you allergic to? What barriers can you comfortably remove for yourself and for your clients? And then you can find the system that fits you.
Grace F. (11:14):
Yeah, I agree. Let's kind of walk through the stages of the onboarding process. So we've already agreed that true onboarding starts after they signed a contract. We've already had a discovery call. They've already signed the dotted line and said yes to your pricing, all that stuff. For me, the first thing that happens. Erin, like you were saying, like, there's like a welcome package that I send. It's an actual document that I send out that has the process outline for, like, my processes for how I work, as well as timelines. I call it housekeeping. So I explain, like, my office hours. I explain, you know, how they can expect to get their deliverables. I put a link to my. I live and die by Google Drive. So I create a shared folder for every single one of my clients.
(11:57):
So I give them a link to that folder. I give them a link in my welcome package to how to book calls with me, how to follow up, how I prefer communication, but letting them know as well that it's like, it's flexible. If they need something different, then they have to tell me. But it's all, like, outlined very clear in the welcome package. And I even include, like, how to give good feedback that actually will help me make my writing what they want. And a big thing that I hear a lot of is, like, clients leave very generic feedback on maybe on somebody's work. Like, I don't like this, but that's not really helpful. I say, give them a checklist. Like, are you. What, like, tell me what you don't like about something. Like, is it something that you would never say?
(12:37):
Is this not your brand voice? I expect collaboration from my clients to tell me, okay, what don't you like about it? Or at the very least say, I'm not into this, but I can't quite pinpoint why. Can we look into this a little bit more? That's totally valid, but it's just leaving very clear feedback rules and protocols in my welcome documents that my clients understand.
Erin P. (12:59):
And I don't do a welcome document, but I include that in a video with every piece of deliverable, like, here's how to give feedback on this thing. And I have a. It's just a. It's like a checklist to your point, that I insert into that copy deck so that they can say as a reminder. And then I give them a loom, like, here's what's really good feedback so that they understand. And then. But I do edits very differently than you do, I think. And so I do all the edits live because this is for two reasons. One is to hold them accountable because I can't tell you how many times I've had to chase people down. And then it puts a hitch in projects. And then I have to charge a project restart fee. And then.
(13:42):
But if we have the call scheduled, then they can just get their edits in 24 hours ahead of time, and we run through it. And by the end of that call, there. Anyway, so we're. I'm getting off track because we're talking about onboarding that project delivery. But, you know, it's just, it's interesting to hear at what point I guess some of those conversations take place.
Grace F. (14:01):
I have to say, every time we talk about doing live edits in front of your clients, like, I immediately start sweating bullets because that. I like to take my time and I can't just deliver on the fly like that because that just makes me super nervous. I like to sit there and think.
Erin P. (14:15):
About it, but it's not always, like final at that point, right? Sometimes here, let's talk through the edits. Let me make some notes. Something more along these Lines. Yeah, that's it. Cool. I'll make sure to do that in your next round. Does that make sense? Anyway, we can do a whole episode on edit process, I think.
Grace F. (14:33):
Right. Maybe we should. Is that all laid out? Do you explain that process, I'm assuming, in your welcome balloon video? Right.
Erin P. (14:41):
I explain it in my proposal and in the sales process.
Grace F. (14:45):
Perfect.
Erin P. (14:46):
You know, and then again, like in the onboarding conversation that we have, it's like, hey, all of my edits take place with this, and I share the benefits for why it works and how it streamlines the project flow for me.
Grace F. (14:59):
Smart.
Erin P. (15:00):
And then the deliverables in my contracts are always like, you know, if it's website copy, you get these pages delivered in a Google document. All edits to be made in the Google document and handled via live edits. Nice. And you get up to two calls for each stage.
Grace F. (15:15):
Yeah. So all of that. So the takeaway for that, I think, is just to make sure you're setting that expectation so your client knows what your editing process is like and that they agree to it. Yeah. And, Nicole, you. You kind of have, like, a different perspective onboarding because of your agency experience.
Nicole M. (15:34):
I do. And also as my freelance experience, as I'm thinking about it, I was like, how different do you. If at all? Because the majority of my projects come by referral. So these might be people that I already know and have a shorthand with.
Grace F. (15:49):
Right.
Nicole M. (15:49):
Or come from people that I really trust and understand their workflow. So I think mine is less a cultural orientation. Like, Erin, you're introducing them of the culture of how copy snacks works. Right. So mine is less that and more of checking for gaps in knowledge on the agency side, because we're working with clients who come through a formal sales process. So, you know, they're vetted. There's an initial discovery call, and then, you know, once the contract, all of that is handled on the sales side. And so our onboarding starts with a welcome email, and then the project manager gets everything set up so, you know, the Dropbox files are all transferred. We also work primarily in Google Drive, so we have templated folders that get created for every client. Everything gets scheduled in the project management system.
(16:45):
And then we'll have an internal briefing meeting for my team. A project kickoff. An internal kickoff. And then depending on if it's a marketing project or a web design project, we'll have a developer or a content kickoff before a pen hits paper. All of that has to. Has to be done so that everybody's on the same Page.
Grace F. (17:06):
And is this a. From the agency side, Is this like a really strict process or do you guys customize it at any point for your clients?
Nicole M. (17:15):
No, the onboarding process is templatized. So it's very standardized. Depending on what type of deliverable it is. Is, you know, where the stuff starts changing post onboarding, where it becomes more distinctive to that client. But the process of onboarding itself is quite regimented.
Grace F. (17:33):
Okay, now, okay, so we've talked about kind of the systems a little bit on how we do this, but how do you guys personalize yours? So for me, because my welcome package is a document, but I do like a personalized note at the beginning of every welcome package. So that part is personalized every single time I do one. Erin, you talked about creating loom videos. Are they pre recorded or do you record a new one for every client?
Erin P. (17:54):
I record them for every client because there's one walking them through the contract or the proposal and contract. There's one walking them and really the rest of it's done live. It's almost all done live because that's how I tailor it. The documents themselves don't change. It's the conversation. Okay, cool.
Grace F. (18:14):
And Nicole, with your age from the agency side, you guys are very templatized, but it is altered for whatever deliverables you've agreed to.
Nicole M. (18:22):
Yeah. And it's. It's only just changing. Okay, so it's the client, you change the client name and the project, whoever's the assigned account manager, but everything is a template.
Grace F. (18:33):
Okay, perfect. Awesome. Moving on a little bit, let's talk about a kickoff call. I don't know about you guys, but I. When I do a kickoff call with a client, I like to have an agenda created for before I go on the call. It isn't really for me, a strict agenda. I just want to make sure that I am hitting every point in it that I need to talk about in order to complete the project successfully. And it also gives me a chance to figure out, like, where's the client at? How are they feeling? What's important to them? Has anything changed since the contract has been signed? Or do they need to reprioritize anything? Is there anything new that I need to know? Also, is there anything that I'm missing?
(19:12):
Like, did they maybe forget to reply to an email that I sent about the project? Is there a piece of homework that I'm missing? Right. So what about you guys? Do you guys have a strict agenda that you guys prepare for your calls?
Erin P. (19:26):
Not at all. Before the call, they have to fill out the onboarding form.
Grace F. (19:31):
Yeah.
Erin P. (19:31):
They have not filled it out the day before we move the kickoff call. I need to have that. But I encourage them to do bullets. I encourage them to do, like, just notes into the form. So we have a basis for the call.
Grace F. (19:46):
Right.
Erin P. (19:46):
The first half of the call is laying out how the project's going to go. And then, like, let's go through your answers. And here's what I noticed up front. Here's what I noticed, because one of those questions is, anything else I should know? Like, there's some very specific ones that I ask based on branding versus web copy versus. And if it's a single blog or a series of blogs, it's a very different conversation or a retainer project. There's some very specific pieces that I need to know up front. And so by sharing the bullets, all I have to do from there is use those to guide our conversation. And so that questionnaire is the agenda.
Grace F. (20:26):
Yeah, no, that's. That's a really smart way of doing it. And. And I can say, like, you basically wrote my website copy for me. Like, that onboarding form that you prepared for your clients is, like, very detailed, like, next level. So I think it's a really good thing to emulate. I love it.
Erin P. (20:41):
Nicole, what about you?
Nicole M. (20:43):
On the agency side, depending on whether it is a web project or a marketing retainer, they will also have homework. They have a website worksheet or a client worksheet that has to be filled out, and then the sales team turns that into the kickoff agenda. So that not only is the handoff from sales to account management, that sets the precedent for our internal discovery call. So not the sales discovery, but the project discovery call, which is our kickoff meeting. And that's nice because we have someone who functions as a subject matter expert because they've gone through the whole sales process with this client and then can just, like, data dump everything they know to the team. Really succinctly.
Grace F. (21:23):
I love hearing about the agency side because it's so different than what I'm used to. So I'm always super interested to hear your take on this kind of stuff.
Nicole M. (21:30):
It makes it. It makes it a lot more efficient. Is it as cozy as, you know, how I would do it as a freelancer? Probably not. But that doesn't mean that it's not an intimate conversation, because it is, because we're asking them, okay, what has worked in the past for you? What has not worked in the past for you? If you could wave A magic wand to, you know, whatever we're working on. What would you do? And then, you know, things like, what does success look like getting into like meaty conversations? And it's not just we do X for Y and it's done on this date so we still can have those really deep and influential conversations around a very. Rigid's not the right word, but around a very predictable framework.
Grace F. (22:10):
Right, okay, perfect.
Erin P. (22:12):
And after having grown up in agencies, it's like I've modeled my approach based on that but narrowed down to one person.
Grace F. (22:19):
Yep.
Erin P. (22:20):
Or one person and contractors, as it may.
Grace F. (22:23):
Right. Yeah, yeah. I'm strictly freelancer. I don't have any kind of agency experience. I mean, I've had an agency, like clients that I've written for, but I've never worked for an agency, if that makes sense.
Nicole M. (22:36):
Yeah.
Grace F. (22:37):
So kind of redirecting things a little bit here. Do you have an. On, like an actual onboarding checklist that you use?
Erin P. (22:44):
No, not really. Sorry, I'm shaking my head for everyone on the podcast because you can hear things rattling around in there. No, there's not a checklist. Not in so many forms.
Grace F. (22:58):
They.
Erin P. (22:58):
I'll often create like a project checklist for the onboarding conversation if it's a more complex project that's going to last over the course of a couple months as opposed to one to two weeks or less. But really the only homework for onboarding is the form and there may be follow up homework, but.
Grace F. (23:17):
Okay, perfect. Personally, I do have an SOP for my business on how to get through the onboarding of what needs to be done at each point during the onboarding process. But again, it's to quote Pirates of the Caribbean, it's a set of guidelines as opposed to actual rules. There are times when, you know, there are things that are maybe not necessary or maybe things that need to be tweaked a little bit. Erin, I think it was you that said this. It's being flexible, not necessarily rigid. Right. And being agile in your business and how you approach this. But especially I do think that there's a lot of value, especially when you're starting out to sitting down and creating an SOP document for your business so that you have that kind of framework to work with, like make rules and then bend them.
Nicole M. (24:06):
Yes, I think that's a really strong.
Grace F. (24:10):
Oh, thank you.
Erin P. (24:12):
Well, I mean, you can't. To your point, it's like I always say this. You know, I may have plans A to Z, but that way you make the first Plan, and then, you know what? How do I adjust them?
Grace F. (24:23):
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Let's have a little bit of fun. Have either of you ever had a client that was difficult when you're onboarding them?
Nicole M. (24:32):
Not so much. Difficult in that they are difficult to work with. Difficult in what? Can't get the stuff that I need from them. Like, if it's, you know, if it's access to DNS records, if it's branding assets, if it's images, you know, like, sometimes it's just like pulling teeth to get stuff out and you have to be firm and remind them that timelines are at stake. So if the launch date is the launch date and that can't move, then you've got it. You've got to play ball. You got to stick to the. You got to stick to the timeline.
Grace F. (25:08):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What about you, Erin?
Erin P. (25:12):
Hey, most of the time, by the time someone signs, I know there's red flags that I watch for that are pretty good signs that it's not going to be a good fit. And if that's the case, then I don't proceed before it's even time to sign the contract.
Nicole M. (25:26):
Yes.
Erin P. (25:27):
Every once in a while, a project doesn't go as planned, for things come up on the client's end. And I would say most of the roadblocks come up and most of the difficulties come up not because it's a client that's difficult, but because they're too busy or they don't understand how to follow the next step or they don't understand why it's important. So it just keeps getting pushed off. So there have been some projects that, you know, we do onboarding and we stop at onboarding because they never get me anything. And, you know, I'll follow up, you know, twice and then. Or follow up twice a month, then I'll follow up once a month, and then I will let them know that it's. I will no longer be following up after this point.
(26:08):
Because it's like, if they want to come back at this point, once it's been five months or three months, things have changed, guaranteed. And it's just, we have to start over.
Grace F. (26:17):
Yeah. And that's fair. And if that happens, do you have, like, a rebuild fee that you. That you make them pay or, like, how do you handle that in your.
Erin P. (26:27):
Contracts if someone goes out to three months? I've never had them come back for the same project. They have come back for other projects or we've changed the way that we've worked together, but that's a big part of the reason that so much of what I do is live, because it's like holding people's feet to the fire. You laugh, and I get that. But, you know, one of my favorite clients, who's been a client for five years now, was one of my first clients and is still around. The only way that we get stuff done is work sessions. So we have a weekly work session where we tackle all the things. We talk strategy. If we need to have additional strategy calls, we do that. But that's just how she works. And we can iterate together that way, and we're just more effective.
(27:11):
So that's not something that I would offer to everyone, but that's that relationship.
Grace F. (27:19):
Okay, yeah, that's. That's totally valid. Usually, Erin, you kind of touched on this, but usually any red flags that come up with a client will come up before the onboarding process starts. Really? That usually comes up in the discovery points. The biggest kind of red flags for me during the onboarding is them delaying getting their homework to me or perhaps maybe being slow to reply to emails or maybe trying to change the project scope after everything has been signed. I haven't really had that specifically happen, but I have. You know, we're in a lot of different copywriting groups, so I have. I have seen other copywriters mention that their clients have tried this. So what would you recommend as far as, like, setting boundaries and keeping professional when those kind of issues do arise when you're onboarding?
Nicole M. (28:06):
Yeah. Assume goodwill first. Always assume goodwill and that, you know, assume that this is maybe a communication issue that can be resolved. You know, if you have good processes in place, they become your boundaries. You don't have to go above and beyond.
Grace F. (28:24):
Yeah. And I would say too, like, if a client has decided to basically reprioritize something, like if something has changed in their business, that's totally valid. But I would recommend starting, like getting them to sign a new contract for if the scope has changed a lot, don't kind of fly by the seat of your pants and just let them kind of dictate what you're going to be doing now, if it's going to be different than what you've agreed to originally.
Erin P. (28:46):
And I don't even necessarily sign another contract. I create contracts that are flexible enough that you can change the scope, but get it in writing 100,000% get it in writing, get it mutually agreed to make sure that everyone is on the same page.
Grace F. (29:02):
I like that. Yeah.
Erin P. (29:04):
It's more like a change order than.
Grace F. (29:06):
Yes, Oh, I like that wording change order. Thank you. Yeah. And again, it kind of ties back into being agile but also understanding. Like your clients are a person too. Like things change in their business. Maybe they don't have the bandwidth, maybe they're overwhelmed. Right. There's assuming goodwill as well. Like, you don't want to assume that your clients are trying to be difficult just to be a thorn in your side. They're people too.
Erin P. (29:30):
Well, and I think it's not personal would be to add that there's always something else going on and it may be that they've decided that you're not the person for them. But generally speaking, you know, you can send a nine word email and it's the magic answer. And it's like, okay, well, we'll just end things, basically assume goodwill. And then I think it's always valid to ask if someone can hop on the phone with you because they may not know how to put it in writing or be like, yeah, I need to send that. But if there's an appointment, again, it's the live piece and you can talk through and they'll either say, you know what, I am too overwhelmed with all these other things. I need to put a pause on this, or then you can get to that without the writing.
(30:10):
And you know, sometimes I will hear someone will say something and I'm like, that's a really interesting thing. I think we need to talk and figure out, like you said that for a reason. So let's get to the bottom of that and solve for the problem. There is a time when phone calls and meetings can be emails, but there is no substitute for that face to face piece or voice to voice piece, whatever that looks like. And I just think that there's sometimes when a call is absolutely necessary and that's how you solve for that.
Grace F. (30:44):
Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. This service is running a little bit longer than we anticipated because of course it is. We can talk about this for hours, honestly. But I want to give like a quick, rapid fire bonus tips when it comes to onboarding. Erin, this might. And Nicole, this might be where you guys especially have a lot to say, but when you're onboarding multiple clients at once, that can get kind of overwhelming for, you know, you as a person, as a copywriter, how do you handle onboarding multiple clients?
Erin P. (31:15):
I don't usually onboard multiple clients at once. That's very rare. It's the exception to the rule. And it depends candidly on what the projects are. If now that I've shifted to a deeper, not wider approach where I'm going deeper into my clients businesses to support them more as a fractional CMO who does copy on the side. Now it's more about figuring out a project management system that's going to work. I do all my contracting through high level, I do all my invoicing through high level for the most part. Again, exceptions to the rule exist, but because it's so much more retainer focused, it's usually a project management system. So does the client. Are they stuck in one? If they are, then I'll flex with that because I'm going to be working so deeply with them it makes sense. Otherwise I get them into ClickUp.
Grace F. (32:01):
Okay, and what about you, Nicole? What do you use on your side?
Nicole M. (32:06):
So everything is templatized so you know, it's set to scale as much as we need to. So there really isn't an issue with onboarding multiple clients. Where it becomes an issue is when we're looking on the capacity side is where we get to schedule all these projects. So for us it's not the upfront issue, it's the demand and how we assign things into our existing capacity that becomes an issue. And you know, that's a discussion that we can dive into at another time. But when you have the software in place that is flexible and scalable, onboarding multiple clients at a time isn't an issue.
Grace F. (32:43):
Yeah. Okay, so, but there are lots of tools that you can use if, for anybody listening to this, if you're in that stage where you're kind of doing everything on your own, you can use a tool like the Sato or Honeybook, like I would try to automate as much as you can without completely losing that personal touch. There are so many tools that are out there now, especially you know, with as more and more things are automated and using AI like you can try to offload as much as you can to kind of save your own brain power. Yeah.
(33:12):
But to add like a little bit of a personal touch to it, like you can send even automated emails to follow up on each step with just like a quick email just to maintain the momentum and keep yourself at the top of mind to your clients while they're going through the onboarding with you.
Nicole M. (33:27):
With the holidays approaching, you know, we're recording this at the end of September with the holidays approaching, there's going to be lots of opportunities for free trials for different software coming up through the end of the year. So we encourage you to try different software packages to see what really works for you. As a freelancer, I had tried 17 hats and I just, I could not make it work for me for the life I have worked as a freelancer and also as a strategic partner for, you know, everything from Jira to Asana to Click up to Trello to. It's fun to get, like, a little taste of all of it. So, you know, experiment and find what works for you.
Erin P. (34:09):
Yep.
Grace F. (34:10):
But, yeah, finding a system that does work, I know for me, like, I find ClickUp a little bit hard to navigate just because of the interface. Everything gets kind of buried. But I know that other people really like it. Like, I don't. Erin, you use ClickUp and for some reason it just doesn't resonate with me. But something like Asana or whatever, as far as, like a project management tool goes, really, I find it easy to use. Tldr. Getting to the point is that just experimenting, find something that resonates with you and that you find easy to use.
Erin P. (34:39):
And I want to add in, like, a budget is a concern. A lot of these tools have free plans.
Nicole M. (34:43):
Yes.
Erin P. (34:44):
But for those that don't like, AppSumo is a legitimate place to find some really great CRMs, to find some really great schedulers. There's even some great zoom alternatives that you can find on there. So there are options. Yeah, you have to pay, but it's a fraction.
Nicole M. (35:01):
Yeah. And sometimes it's lifetime access, which is absolutely delightful.
Erin P. (35:05):
And if the thing folds for any reason, then you usually get some kind of a refund.
Nicole M. (35:10):
We are not sponsored by AppSumo yet.
Grace F. (35:14):
Maybe one.
Erin P. (35:15):
Maybe one day. Any final thoughts here that we want to share?
Grace F. (35:21):
If I could share, like, one thing that I think that people should take away from listening to this is again, like, have a system in place, but also don't completely lose that personal touch. Like, be. Be agile in your onboarding, but have at least an outline in place so that you know what needs to be done in the next step. Like, one of the biggest challenges that I have is, okay, what is next? And if I have that already written down, it's a lot easier for me to actually implement it. If I have to change it a little bit, that's fine. But as long as I know what the next step is, it makes my life a lot easier. That's my takeaway from onboarding. What about you, Nicole?
Nicole M. (35:59):
I would say start small, start on paper if you need to, and be, you know, very deliberate. Don't feel like you have to iron this all out in one go. It's an iterative process.
Grace F. (36:10):
Sure.
Nicole M. (36:11):
You know, find out where you are, your own bottleneck, and start working around that.
Grace F. (36:15):
I like that. What about you, Erin?
Erin P. (36:17):
I would say I remember this, like, very clearly. Like the very first year of business. Someone's like, well, what are your processes? And like, everything's always different. I don't have processes, which is ironic because I really did. I had amazing processes. I just didn't know to call them processes yet. And I would say I'm going to give you the same advice that someone gave me, and that's you probably have more processes in mind than you know. So figure out what the commonalities are. Oh, well, you have a discovery call. Cool. Oh, well, you have a kickoff call. Cool.
(36:49):
And what I've found is that by mapping out those processes, even if it's not super defined on the how popping the process and the timeline into the contract makes it or the proposal, whatever you want to call it, makes it very easy to then do and then figure out what worked, what didn't work, what could have gone better.
Grace F. (37:07):
Yeah.
Erin P. (37:08):
And you adjust it.
Nicole M. (37:10):
Nice.
Grace F. (37:11):
Awesome. Okay, so we're going to be wrapping up now. I want to encourage anybody who's listening. I want you to share what your onboarding processes and experiences are like on our social media accounts that you can find us on at the coffee table. Podcast is our handle on Instagram, on LinkedIn, you can find us anywhere. And I would love to hear your thoughts onboarding in there. Wrapping up. I want to tease kind of the next topic here, our next episode. Erin, this is kind of where you shine, I think here. Did you want to tease it?
Erin P. (37:43):
Yes, I would love to. Next episode, I guess in two weeks, we're going to be talking about co creating a brief with clients. And this is near and dear to my heart, as you have probably guessed from me saying, how'd I do that live? I do that live and I do that live. So we'll get into that very soon.
Grace F. (38:00):
All right, everybody, thanks so much for listening to our TED Talk onboarding.
Welcome to the Copy Table, the podcast for copywriters who want to get new ideas and inspiration for building and scaling a business you love.
Erin P. (00:10):
In this podcast, hosts Grace Fortune, Nicole Morton, and Erin Pennings bring new topics and guests to the table.
Grace F. (00:17):
Every single episode, we're spilling the beans on how you can use your interests and expertise to define what success means to you and take steps to achieve it. Welcome, everybody back to another episode of the Coffee Table. Today, me, Grace Fortune and Nicole Morton and Erin Pennings are going to be talking about one of my favorite systems and processes to set up, and that is onboarding. Yay. Onboarding. Yay. So all three of us have a special love of onboarding, and we decided to get into this topic because, to me, it's one of the most important processes you can come up with because it just lays out a groundwork and foundation for a really successful relationship with your client. And I'm going to just go into kind of the highlights of what we're expecting to cover.
(01:09):
We want to keep this episode to about 20 or so minutes, and we're going to talk about the need for balance between the systems and a relationship and personal touches in your onboarding systems, as well as how to blend them together at every stage in the onboarding process. So we're going to be talking about the initial outreach and discovery calls. We're going to talk a little bit about the contract and agreements, the welcome package, kickoff calls, and an onboarding checklist. We're also going to talk about how to handle difficult clients when you're onboarding. And finally, a few little bonus tips that we like to use in our businesses to make our onboarding successful. So are you guys excited as I am?
Nicole M. (01:52):
We're never as excited as you are. Processes.
Erin P. (01:57):
And I think it's important to, like, mention before we dive in. We started, like, last season, just recording an episode onboarding, and then it. It was like 60 minutes, and we're like, wait, wait, wait. Shouldn't we do a whole season on processes? And so this conversation is not new to the three of us.
Grace F. (02:16):
Right.
Erin P. (02:17):
But we wanted to try to keep this more focused for you because we're assuming that if you're tuning in for an episode onboarding, you may not want to talk about the discovery call or payments and contracts. So we broke those out into separate episodes.
Grace F. (02:32):
So.
Erin P. (02:33):
But we're going to talk about them because of course we're going to, because this is us.
Grace F. (02:39):
Yeah. It's actually funny that you say that, because before we started Recording this, we actually had a little, we had a mini debate on when onboarding actually really starts. For me, like in my opinion, onboarding really starts as soon as you get contact from a potential client. Because for me it's all about laying the foundation for the relationship. Like you want to make an amazing first impression from the very first outreach. But Erin, you had a little bit of a different opinion.
Erin P. (03:05):
Yeah, I do. When I think about onboarding, it is only successful if you've laid the groundwork for it. And I see discovery as the first opportunity to kind of lay the groundwork for it. But discovery to me is more about matchmaking. Is this a fit? Do we like each other? Do, do we want to work together? And then I see like sales as the here's what it's going to cost, here's the flow where I'm also again continuing to set the groundwork for. Here's what you're going to expect working like this so that you know when you sign on the dotted line, like what you're getting. And then to me, onboarding truly starts while it bleeds over. I guess in my, my way of thinking, it really doesn't really start until you have that contract in place.
(03:47):
Because once that is happening, that's when I can then schedule the kickoff call. That's when I can schedule the project into my flow. Because while I might like pencil it in, I'm not putting all my eggs in any single basket until I don't say till there's cold hard cash in my bank account, but until there's at least a commitment for this, a legal agreement.
Nicole M. (04:10):
Yes. And that's the most important part, is that you've covered all your bases. You always prepare for the worst, assume goodwill and the best, but you need that protection for your business.
Grace F. (04:20):
Yeah, I would agree with that for sure. So I would love to get your guys opinion on like balancing out between having systems in place and building a relationship with your clients. Because for me, like really good onboarding, like I've already said, it builds that foundation to make the project successful. But how do you guys feel about inputting a system in place and relationship building? Like, how do you feel like it works in tandem together?
Erin P. (04:46):
I want to ask you a clarifying question, if I may first before either one of us answers. And that is when you say systems versus relationship building, what specifically do you mean? Because I don't see them as mutually exclusive or so I'm curious what you mean by the balance. Tell me more.
Grace F. (05:05):
I've Noticed that some people tend to go from one extreme to the other where they kind of sacrifice the process and the systems that they use in lieu of just having a super personal touch where they have everything done as they're going through the onboarding process, trying to build a custom experience for each and every new client in order to wow them. But they don't have, yeah, they don't have like an actual process in place and they're reinventing the wheel every single time they get a new client and then they get overwhelmed and it's really frustrating. And then I mean there are some people who go to the other extreme where they have a very rigid process in place but they don't really incorporate relationship building into it. That's what I mean.
Nicole M. (05:49):
That's a really interesting, that's an interesting take.
Erin P. (05:52):
Yeah, it is.
Grace F. (05:53):
So I'd love to know your guys thoughts on that. Like how do you guys approach it and like what is your opinion on.
Erin P. (05:57):
This when given the opportunity? I always have opinions. As you have learned, 100%.
Grace F. (06:06):
I'm here for it. What do you think, Nicole?
Nicole M. (06:09):
I'm going to expose a little soft underbelly here. So I am nothing if not guilty of over serving clients. So I don't have as many automations in place as I should as I could. Rather I put a lot more weight towards the comfort and I can't figure out what's the right word but aside from the comfortability of the client during the onboarding process, you know, over describing, you know, expectations, over explaining just to make sure that everybody's clear on all sides. And I know that I could be doing more work about making that a little bit more streamlined and maybe just a little bit more templatized because I don't know that all of that comes from my insecurities rather than the quality of client that I'm onboarding.
Grace F. (07:02):
Okay. What about you, Erin?
Erin P. (07:04):
And I would say I'm pretty systematized, but I would say I'm not rigid. Sales is something that I've always enjoyed. I've done like, I don't know, I had a short stint as a furniture salesperson while I was in between my summer Alaska tourism jobs. And I've always enjoyed it and I've been through some really awesome sales training. So I don't know that it's systemic in that it's something that I have to follow repeatedly every time. But there is just a process that is intrinsic to the way that I see things. And so I don't think, I think I've systematized relationship building. It's like, okay, I know how to make coffee calls really work for me. I know how to make the sales process really work for me and how to make it effective for the client side.
(07:49):
So, I mean, people die on the vine all the time. That sounds really bad. Potential projects die on the vine all the time. It's just the nature of it.
Nicole M. (07:56):
Yes.
Erin P. (07:59):
There'S Erin with her strange aronisms there.
Grace F. (08:03):
All good, you know, so.
Erin P. (08:04):
And then I have a pretty solid proposal that doesn't change a whole lot. Even though the projects that I, I do are wildly different and wildly, shall we say, customized for project. But it's like, for each one, it's like, okay, so what are the phases? There's an discovery phase, there's a doing phase, there's an edits phase, and if there's other projects, then those are the phases. So I know how to work them into the phases and they go into the contract, which is again, laying the groundwork for this and then the kickoff call. I may ask different questions, but it's always the same flow. So thinking on my feet now while we're talking, I think that is intrinsic to relationship building for a client because if they know that there's a process, you've already established some trust right there.
(08:58):
That makes it much easier to deliver on whatever you promised. Not only do you tell them what you're going to do, you tell them how you're going to do it. And then when it comes time to do the actual onboarding, they already have some expectations in place. So literally all that you have to do is like reiterate, hey, we said we're going to do this now. Here's when we're going to do this now. Here are the specific dates where we're going to start, here's the next step, and here's what you can expect. And it's really just reiterating it, going into more detail and then kind of holding their hand every step of the way so that they know, like, all the project update emails that I do are like, here's what we're doing now, here's what's happening next.
(09:35):
So that everyone always knows what's next. Yeah, that's a really long winded way of saying it's not to me.
Grace F. (09:46):
Okay, so that's really interesting. This has kind of made me realize that you and I have a little bit more in common with our onboarding processes than I thought. One thing that you and I have in common is that our projects tend to be very different each time. So there has to be a level of flexibility when it comes to the systems and processes, but the flow is still the same. There's the contract. There's like any kind of agreements and like the discovery call, those are kind of the same, but they need to be tweaked for each different client. Like, I might ask different questions, I'll put different points in my contracts and agreements, but the flow is still the same. And then once they sign on, you know, they get a welcome package, we have a kickoff call.
(10:28):
Then there's like a checklist that they go through on how to give feedback and all that kind of stuff. But it's. It's tweaked and customized a bit for every single client. So that's.
Erin P. (10:37):
I love your welcome packages, too. I'm allergic to getting welcome packages because I never will look at them. I know I will never look at them. So I do the same thing, but I do it in a live call.
Grace F. (10:48):
Oh, okay. Okay.
Erin P. (10:50):
Yeah, so it, you know, it's just interesting how we each operate. But you need that to not be live.
Grace F. (10:58):
Yeah.
Erin P. (10:59):
I think onboarding is going to be like, if we're doing the takeaway for the audience.
Grace F. (11:03):
Yeah.
Erin P. (11:04):
What are you allergic to? What barriers can you comfortably remove for yourself and for your clients? And then you can find the system that fits you.
Grace F. (11:14):
Yeah, I agree. Let's kind of walk through the stages of the onboarding process. So we've already agreed that true onboarding starts after they signed a contract. We've already had a discovery call. They've already signed the dotted line and said yes to your pricing, all that stuff. For me, the first thing that happens. Erin, like you were saying, like, there's like a welcome package that I send. It's an actual document that I send out that has the process outline for, like, my processes for how I work, as well as timelines. I call it housekeeping. So I explain, like, my office hours. I explain, you know, how they can expect to get their deliverables. I put a link to my. I live and die by Google Drive. So I create a shared folder for every single one of my clients.
(11:57):
So I give them a link to that folder. I give them a link in my welcome package to how to book calls with me, how to follow up, how I prefer communication, but letting them know as well that it's like, it's flexible. If they need something different, then they have to tell me. But it's all, like, outlined very clear in the welcome package. And I even include, like, how to give good feedback that actually will help me make my writing what they want. And a big thing that I hear a lot of is, like, clients leave very generic feedback on maybe on somebody's work. Like, I don't like this, but that's not really helpful. I say, give them a checklist. Like, are you. What, like, tell me what you don't like about something. Like, is it something that you would never say?
(12:37):
Is this not your brand voice? I expect collaboration from my clients to tell me, okay, what don't you like about it? Or at the very least say, I'm not into this, but I can't quite pinpoint why. Can we look into this a little bit more? That's totally valid, but it's just leaving very clear feedback rules and protocols in my welcome documents that my clients understand.
Erin P. (12:59):
And I don't do a welcome document, but I include that in a video with every piece of deliverable, like, here's how to give feedback on this thing. And I have a. It's just a. It's like a checklist to your point, that I insert into that copy deck so that they can say as a reminder. And then I give them a loom, like, here's what's really good feedback so that they understand. And then. But I do edits very differently than you do, I think. And so I do all the edits live because this is for two reasons. One is to hold them accountable because I can't tell you how many times I've had to chase people down. And then it puts a hitch in projects. And then I have to charge a project restart fee. And then.
(13:42):
But if we have the call scheduled, then they can just get their edits in 24 hours ahead of time, and we run through it. And by the end of that call, there. Anyway, so we're. I'm getting off track because we're talking about onboarding that project delivery. But, you know, it's just, it's interesting to hear at what point I guess some of those conversations take place.
Grace F. (14:01):
I have to say, every time we talk about doing live edits in front of your clients, like, I immediately start sweating bullets because that. I like to take my time and I can't just deliver on the fly like that because that just makes me super nervous. I like to sit there and think.
Erin P. (14:15):
About it, but it's not always, like final at that point, right? Sometimes here, let's talk through the edits. Let me make some notes. Something more along these Lines. Yeah, that's it. Cool. I'll make sure to do that in your next round. Does that make sense? Anyway, we can do a whole episode on edit process, I think.
Grace F. (14:33):
Right. Maybe we should. Is that all laid out? Do you explain that process, I'm assuming, in your welcome balloon video? Right.
Erin P. (14:41):
I explain it in my proposal and in the sales process.
Grace F. (14:45):
Perfect.
Erin P. (14:46):
You know, and then again, like in the onboarding conversation that we have, it's like, hey, all of my edits take place with this, and I share the benefits for why it works and how it streamlines the project flow for me.
Grace F. (14:59):
Smart.
Erin P. (15:00):
And then the deliverables in my contracts are always like, you know, if it's website copy, you get these pages delivered in a Google document. All edits to be made in the Google document and handled via live edits. Nice. And you get up to two calls for each stage.
Grace F. (15:15):
Yeah. So all of that. So the takeaway for that, I think, is just to make sure you're setting that expectation so your client knows what your editing process is like and that they agree to it. Yeah. And, Nicole, you. You kind of have, like, a different perspective onboarding because of your agency experience.
Nicole M. (15:34):
I do. And also as my freelance experience, as I'm thinking about it, I was like, how different do you. If at all? Because the majority of my projects come by referral. So these might be people that I already know and have a shorthand with.
Grace F. (15:49):
Right.
Nicole M. (15:49):
Or come from people that I really trust and understand their workflow. So I think mine is less a cultural orientation. Like, Erin, you're introducing them of the culture of how copy snacks works. Right. So mine is less that and more of checking for gaps in knowledge on the agency side, because we're working with clients who come through a formal sales process. So, you know, they're vetted. There's an initial discovery call, and then, you know, once the contract, all of that is handled on the sales side. And so our onboarding starts with a welcome email, and then the project manager gets everything set up so, you know, the Dropbox files are all transferred. We also work primarily in Google Drive, so we have templated folders that get created for every client. Everything gets scheduled in the project management system.
(16:45):
And then we'll have an internal briefing meeting for my team. A project kickoff. An internal kickoff. And then depending on if it's a marketing project or a web design project, we'll have a developer or a content kickoff before a pen hits paper. All of that has to. Has to be done so that everybody's on the same Page.
Grace F. (17:06):
And is this a. From the agency side, Is this like a really strict process or do you guys customize it at any point for your clients?
Nicole M. (17:15):
No, the onboarding process is templatized. So it's very standardized. Depending on what type of deliverable it is. Is, you know, where the stuff starts changing post onboarding, where it becomes more distinctive to that client. But the process of onboarding itself is quite regimented.
Grace F. (17:33):
Okay, now, okay, so we've talked about kind of the systems a little bit on how we do this, but how do you guys personalize yours? So for me, because my welcome package is a document, but I do like a personalized note at the beginning of every welcome package. So that part is personalized every single time I do one. Erin, you talked about creating loom videos. Are they pre recorded or do you record a new one for every client?
Erin P. (17:54):
I record them for every client because there's one walking them through the contract or the proposal and contract. There's one walking them and really the rest of it's done live. It's almost all done live because that's how I tailor it. The documents themselves don't change. It's the conversation. Okay, cool.
Grace F. (18:14):
And Nicole, with your age from the agency side, you guys are very templatized, but it is altered for whatever deliverables you've agreed to.
Nicole M. (18:22):
Yeah. And it's. It's only just changing. Okay, so it's the client, you change the client name and the project, whoever's the assigned account manager, but everything is a template.
Grace F. (18:33):
Okay, perfect. Awesome. Moving on a little bit, let's talk about a kickoff call. I don't know about you guys, but I. When I do a kickoff call with a client, I like to have an agenda created for before I go on the call. It isn't really for me, a strict agenda. I just want to make sure that I am hitting every point in it that I need to talk about in order to complete the project successfully. And it also gives me a chance to figure out, like, where's the client at? How are they feeling? What's important to them? Has anything changed since the contract has been signed? Or do they need to reprioritize anything? Is there anything new that I need to know? Also, is there anything that I'm missing?
(19:12):
Like, did they maybe forget to reply to an email that I sent about the project? Is there a piece of homework that I'm missing? Right. So what about you guys? Do you guys have a strict agenda that you guys prepare for your calls?
Erin P. (19:26):
Not at all. Before the call, they have to fill out the onboarding form.
Grace F. (19:31):
Yeah.
Erin P. (19:31):
They have not filled it out the day before we move the kickoff call. I need to have that. But I encourage them to do bullets. I encourage them to do, like, just notes into the form. So we have a basis for the call.
Grace F. (19:46):
Right.
Erin P. (19:46):
The first half of the call is laying out how the project's going to go. And then, like, let's go through your answers. And here's what I noticed up front. Here's what I noticed, because one of those questions is, anything else I should know? Like, there's some very specific ones that I ask based on branding versus web copy versus. And if it's a single blog or a series of blogs, it's a very different conversation or a retainer project. There's some very specific pieces that I need to know up front. And so by sharing the bullets, all I have to do from there is use those to guide our conversation. And so that questionnaire is the agenda.
Grace F. (20:26):
Yeah, no, that's. That's a really smart way of doing it. And. And I can say, like, you basically wrote my website copy for me. Like, that onboarding form that you prepared for your clients is, like, very detailed, like, next level. So I think it's a really good thing to emulate. I love it.
Erin P. (20:41):
Nicole, what about you?
Nicole M. (20:43):
On the agency side, depending on whether it is a web project or a marketing retainer, they will also have homework. They have a website worksheet or a client worksheet that has to be filled out, and then the sales team turns that into the kickoff agenda. So that not only is the handoff from sales to account management, that sets the precedent for our internal discovery call. So not the sales discovery, but the project discovery call, which is our kickoff meeting. And that's nice because we have someone who functions as a subject matter expert because they've gone through the whole sales process with this client and then can just, like, data dump everything they know to the team. Really succinctly.
Grace F. (21:23):
I love hearing about the agency side because it's so different than what I'm used to. So I'm always super interested to hear your take on this kind of stuff.
Nicole M. (21:30):
It makes it. It makes it a lot more efficient. Is it as cozy as, you know, how I would do it as a freelancer? Probably not. But that doesn't mean that it's not an intimate conversation, because it is, because we're asking them, okay, what has worked in the past for you? What has not worked in the past for you? If you could wave A magic wand to, you know, whatever we're working on. What would you do? And then, you know, things like, what does success look like getting into like meaty conversations? And it's not just we do X for Y and it's done on this date so we still can have those really deep and influential conversations around a very. Rigid's not the right word, but around a very predictable framework.
Grace F. (22:10):
Right, okay, perfect.
Erin P. (22:12):
And after having grown up in agencies, it's like I've modeled my approach based on that but narrowed down to one person.
Grace F. (22:19):
Yep.
Erin P. (22:20):
Or one person and contractors, as it may.
Grace F. (22:23):
Right. Yeah, yeah. I'm strictly freelancer. I don't have any kind of agency experience. I mean, I've had an agency, like clients that I've written for, but I've never worked for an agency, if that makes sense.
Nicole M. (22:36):
Yeah.
Grace F. (22:37):
So kind of redirecting things a little bit here. Do you have an. On, like an actual onboarding checklist that you use?
Erin P. (22:44):
No, not really. Sorry, I'm shaking my head for everyone on the podcast because you can hear things rattling around in there. No, there's not a checklist. Not in so many forms.
Grace F. (22:58):
They.
Erin P. (22:58):
I'll often create like a project checklist for the onboarding conversation if it's a more complex project that's going to last over the course of a couple months as opposed to one to two weeks or less. But really the only homework for onboarding is the form and there may be follow up homework, but.
Grace F. (23:17):
Okay, perfect. Personally, I do have an SOP for my business on how to get through the onboarding of what needs to be done at each point during the onboarding process. But again, it's to quote Pirates of the Caribbean, it's a set of guidelines as opposed to actual rules. There are times when, you know, there are things that are maybe not necessary or maybe things that need to be tweaked a little bit. Erin, I think it was you that said this. It's being flexible, not necessarily rigid. Right. And being agile in your business and how you approach this. But especially I do think that there's a lot of value, especially when you're starting out to sitting down and creating an SOP document for your business so that you have that kind of framework to work with, like make rules and then bend them.
Nicole M. (24:06):
Yes, I think that's a really strong.
Grace F. (24:10):
Oh, thank you.
Erin P. (24:12):
Well, I mean, you can't. To your point, it's like I always say this. You know, I may have plans A to Z, but that way you make the first Plan, and then, you know what? How do I adjust them?
Grace F. (24:23):
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Let's have a little bit of fun. Have either of you ever had a client that was difficult when you're onboarding them?
Nicole M. (24:32):
Not so much. Difficult in that they are difficult to work with. Difficult in what? Can't get the stuff that I need from them. Like, if it's, you know, if it's access to DNS records, if it's branding assets, if it's images, you know, like, sometimes it's just like pulling teeth to get stuff out and you have to be firm and remind them that timelines are at stake. So if the launch date is the launch date and that can't move, then you've got it. You've got to play ball. You got to stick to the. You got to stick to the timeline.
Grace F. (25:08):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What about you, Erin?
Erin P. (25:12):
Hey, most of the time, by the time someone signs, I know there's red flags that I watch for that are pretty good signs that it's not going to be a good fit. And if that's the case, then I don't proceed before it's even time to sign the contract.
Nicole M. (25:26):
Yes.
Erin P. (25:27):
Every once in a while, a project doesn't go as planned, for things come up on the client's end. And I would say most of the roadblocks come up and most of the difficulties come up not because it's a client that's difficult, but because they're too busy or they don't understand how to follow the next step or they don't understand why it's important. So it just keeps getting pushed off. So there have been some projects that, you know, we do onboarding and we stop at onboarding because they never get me anything. And, you know, I'll follow up, you know, twice and then. Or follow up twice a month, then I'll follow up once a month, and then I will let them know that it's. I will no longer be following up after this point.
(26:08):
Because it's like, if they want to come back at this point, once it's been five months or three months, things have changed, guaranteed. And it's just, we have to start over.
Grace F. (26:17):
Yeah. And that's fair. And if that happens, do you have, like, a rebuild fee that you. That you make them pay or, like, how do you handle that in your.
Erin P. (26:27):
Contracts if someone goes out to three months? I've never had them come back for the same project. They have come back for other projects or we've changed the way that we've worked together, but that's a big part of the reason that so much of what I do is live, because it's like holding people's feet to the fire. You laugh, and I get that. But, you know, one of my favorite clients, who's been a client for five years now, was one of my first clients and is still around. The only way that we get stuff done is work sessions. So we have a weekly work session where we tackle all the things. We talk strategy. If we need to have additional strategy calls, we do that. But that's just how she works. And we can iterate together that way, and we're just more effective.
(27:11):
So that's not something that I would offer to everyone, but that's that relationship.
Grace F. (27:19):
Okay, yeah, that's. That's totally valid. Usually, Erin, you kind of touched on this, but usually any red flags that come up with a client will come up before the onboarding process starts. Really? That usually comes up in the discovery points. The biggest kind of red flags for me during the onboarding is them delaying getting their homework to me or perhaps maybe being slow to reply to emails or maybe trying to change the project scope after everything has been signed. I haven't really had that specifically happen, but I have. You know, we're in a lot of different copywriting groups, so I have. I have seen other copywriters mention that their clients have tried this. So what would you recommend as far as, like, setting boundaries and keeping professional when those kind of issues do arise when you're onboarding?
Nicole M. (28:06):
Yeah. Assume goodwill first. Always assume goodwill and that, you know, assume that this is maybe a communication issue that can be resolved. You know, if you have good processes in place, they become your boundaries. You don't have to go above and beyond.
Grace F. (28:24):
Yeah. And I would say too, like, if a client has decided to basically reprioritize something, like if something has changed in their business, that's totally valid. But I would recommend starting, like getting them to sign a new contract for if the scope has changed a lot, don't kind of fly by the seat of your pants and just let them kind of dictate what you're going to be doing now, if it's going to be different than what you've agreed to originally.
Erin P. (28:46):
And I don't even necessarily sign another contract. I create contracts that are flexible enough that you can change the scope, but get it in writing 100,000% get it in writing, get it mutually agreed to make sure that everyone is on the same page.
Grace F. (29:02):
I like that. Yeah.
Erin P. (29:04):
It's more like a change order than.
Grace F. (29:06):
Yes, Oh, I like that wording change order. Thank you. Yeah. And again, it kind of ties back into being agile but also understanding. Like your clients are a person too. Like things change in their business. Maybe they don't have the bandwidth, maybe they're overwhelmed. Right. There's assuming goodwill as well. Like, you don't want to assume that your clients are trying to be difficult just to be a thorn in your side. They're people too.
Erin P. (29:30):
Well, and I think it's not personal would be to add that there's always something else going on and it may be that they've decided that you're not the person for them. But generally speaking, you know, you can send a nine word email and it's the magic answer. And it's like, okay, well, we'll just end things, basically assume goodwill. And then I think it's always valid to ask if someone can hop on the phone with you because they may not know how to put it in writing or be like, yeah, I need to send that. But if there's an appointment, again, it's the live piece and you can talk through and they'll either say, you know what, I am too overwhelmed with all these other things. I need to put a pause on this, or then you can get to that without the writing.
(30:10):
And you know, sometimes I will hear someone will say something and I'm like, that's a really interesting thing. I think we need to talk and figure out, like you said that for a reason. So let's get to the bottom of that and solve for the problem. There is a time when phone calls and meetings can be emails, but there is no substitute for that face to face piece or voice to voice piece, whatever that looks like. And I just think that there's sometimes when a call is absolutely necessary and that's how you solve for that.
Grace F. (30:44):
Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. This service is running a little bit longer than we anticipated because of course it is. We can talk about this for hours, honestly. But I want to give like a quick, rapid fire bonus tips when it comes to onboarding. Erin, this might. And Nicole, this might be where you guys especially have a lot to say, but when you're onboarding multiple clients at once, that can get kind of overwhelming for, you know, you as a person, as a copywriter, how do you handle onboarding multiple clients?
Erin P. (31:15):
I don't usually onboard multiple clients at once. That's very rare. It's the exception to the rule. And it depends candidly on what the projects are. If now that I've shifted to a deeper, not wider approach where I'm going deeper into my clients businesses to support them more as a fractional CMO who does copy on the side. Now it's more about figuring out a project management system that's going to work. I do all my contracting through high level, I do all my invoicing through high level for the most part. Again, exceptions to the rule exist, but because it's so much more retainer focused, it's usually a project management system. So does the client. Are they stuck in one? If they are, then I'll flex with that because I'm going to be working so deeply with them it makes sense. Otherwise I get them into ClickUp.
Grace F. (32:01):
Okay, and what about you, Nicole? What do you use on your side?
Nicole M. (32:06):
So everything is templatized so you know, it's set to scale as much as we need to. So there really isn't an issue with onboarding multiple clients. Where it becomes an issue is when we're looking on the capacity side is where we get to schedule all these projects. So for us it's not the upfront issue, it's the demand and how we assign things into our existing capacity that becomes an issue. And you know, that's a discussion that we can dive into at another time. But when you have the software in place that is flexible and scalable, onboarding multiple clients at a time isn't an issue.
Grace F. (32:43):
Yeah. Okay, so, but there are lots of tools that you can use if, for anybody listening to this, if you're in that stage where you're kind of doing everything on your own, you can use a tool like the Sato or Honeybook, like I would try to automate as much as you can without completely losing that personal touch. There are so many tools that are out there now, especially you know, with as more and more things are automated and using AI like you can try to offload as much as you can to kind of save your own brain power. Yeah.
(33:12):
But to add like a little bit of a personal touch to it, like you can send even automated emails to follow up on each step with just like a quick email just to maintain the momentum and keep yourself at the top of mind to your clients while they're going through the onboarding with you.
Nicole M. (33:27):
With the holidays approaching, you know, we're recording this at the end of September with the holidays approaching, there's going to be lots of opportunities for free trials for different software coming up through the end of the year. So we encourage you to try different software packages to see what really works for you. As a freelancer, I had tried 17 hats and I just, I could not make it work for me for the life I have worked as a freelancer and also as a strategic partner for, you know, everything from Jira to Asana to Click up to Trello to. It's fun to get, like, a little taste of all of it. So, you know, experiment and find what works for you.
Erin P. (34:09):
Yep.
Grace F. (34:10):
But, yeah, finding a system that does work, I know for me, like, I find ClickUp a little bit hard to navigate just because of the interface. Everything gets kind of buried. But I know that other people really like it. Like, I don't. Erin, you use ClickUp and for some reason it just doesn't resonate with me. But something like Asana or whatever, as far as, like a project management tool goes, really, I find it easy to use. Tldr. Getting to the point is that just experimenting, find something that resonates with you and that you find easy to use.
Erin P. (34:39):
And I want to add in, like, a budget is a concern. A lot of these tools have free plans.
Nicole M. (34:43):
Yes.
Erin P. (34:44):
But for those that don't like, AppSumo is a legitimate place to find some really great CRMs, to find some really great schedulers. There's even some great zoom alternatives that you can find on there. So there are options. Yeah, you have to pay, but it's a fraction.
Nicole M. (35:01):
Yeah. And sometimes it's lifetime access, which is absolutely delightful.
Erin P. (35:05):
And if the thing folds for any reason, then you usually get some kind of a refund.
Nicole M. (35:10):
We are not sponsored by AppSumo yet.
Grace F. (35:14):
Maybe one.
Erin P. (35:15):
Maybe one day. Any final thoughts here that we want to share?
Grace F. (35:21):
If I could share, like, one thing that I think that people should take away from listening to this is again, like, have a system in place, but also don't completely lose that personal touch. Like, be. Be agile in your onboarding, but have at least an outline in place so that you know what needs to be done in the next step. Like, one of the biggest challenges that I have is, okay, what is next? And if I have that already written down, it's a lot easier for me to actually implement it. If I have to change it a little bit, that's fine. But as long as I know what the next step is, it makes my life a lot easier. That's my takeaway from onboarding. What about you, Nicole?
Nicole M. (35:59):
I would say start small, start on paper if you need to, and be, you know, very deliberate. Don't feel like you have to iron this all out in one go. It's an iterative process.
Grace F. (36:10):
Sure.
Nicole M. (36:11):
You know, find out where you are, your own bottleneck, and start working around that.
Grace F. (36:15):
I like that. What about you, Erin?
Erin P. (36:17):
I would say I remember this, like, very clearly. Like the very first year of business. Someone's like, well, what are your processes? And like, everything's always different. I don't have processes, which is ironic because I really did. I had amazing processes. I just didn't know to call them processes yet. And I would say I'm going to give you the same advice that someone gave me, and that's you probably have more processes in mind than you know. So figure out what the commonalities are. Oh, well, you have a discovery call. Cool. Oh, well, you have a kickoff call. Cool.
(36:49):
And what I've found is that by mapping out those processes, even if it's not super defined on the how popping the process and the timeline into the contract makes it or the proposal, whatever you want to call it, makes it very easy to then do and then figure out what worked, what didn't work, what could have gone better.
Grace F. (37:07):
Yeah.
Erin P. (37:08):
And you adjust it.
Nicole M. (37:10):
Nice.
Grace F. (37:11):
Awesome. Okay, so we're going to be wrapping up now. I want to encourage anybody who's listening. I want you to share what your onboarding processes and experiences are like on our social media accounts that you can find us on at the coffee table. Podcast is our handle on Instagram, on LinkedIn, you can find us anywhere. And I would love to hear your thoughts onboarding in there. Wrapping up. I want to tease kind of the next topic here, our next episode. Erin, this is kind of where you shine, I think here. Did you want to tease it?
Erin P. (37:43):
Yes, I would love to. Next episode, I guess in two weeks, we're going to be talking about co creating a brief with clients. And this is near and dear to my heart, as you have probably guessed from me saying, how'd I do that live? I do that live and I do that live. So we'll get into that very soon.
Grace F. (38:00):
All right, everybody, thanks so much for listening to our TED Talk onboarding.
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