December 17, 2024 • 22 mins
Welcome back to The Copy Table! Season 2 is all about the processes your copywriting business needs to thrive.
In this episode, we're tackling how you can consistently get feedback from your clients.
Listen in to Erin, Nicole, and Grace's latest conversation, and you'll learn how to:
- Educate your clients on giving actionable feedback, ensuring you get insights that are both constructive and specific, helping you refine your work effectively.
- Set up structured processes for feedback that streamline communication and make it easier for clients to provide the valuable input you need.
- Use live feedback sessions to address concerns in real-time, deepening your understanding of client needs and speeding up the revision process.
Most importantly? You'll learn how to use feedback to enhance your client relationships and build trust -- improving the quality of your copywriting projects and making it an easy yes to keep those clients coming back again and again.
The takeaway? There really is no one right way to build a copywriting business you love, but it's on you to use your powers of persuasion responsibly! Whether you need actionable tips to market your copywriting business, a push to raise your rates, or the courage to plant your flag in a new niche, we've got you covered. Over the years, we've met some extraordinary people who've helped us, and we're ready to help you avoid the pitfalls that so many copywriters find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nicole Morton (00:02):
Welcome to the Copy Table, the podcast for copywriters who want to get new ideas and inspiration for building and scaling a business you love.
Erin Pennings (00:10):
In this podcast, hosts Grace Fortune, Nicole Morton and Erin Pennings bring new topics and guests to the table every single episode.
Grace Fortune (00:17):
We're spilling the beans on how you can use your interests and expertise to define what success means to you and take steps to achieve it.
Erin Pennings (00:30):
Welcome back to the Coffee Table. Grace Fortune, Nicole Morton and I, Erin Pennings, are here today to talk about how to get great feedback from clients. And this season is all about processes. And the feedback aspect of copywriting is one of the most important processes in my mind because that's how you get really close to final and that's how you get known, that's how people introduce you as a great copywriter, is if you're able to take the feedback, run with it. And part of that means coaching your clients on how to give great feedback.
(01:07):
So today we're going to talk about not just the fact that great feedback doesn't always mean, hey, this is amazing, go forth and conquer, but how to get the good feedback that maybe isn't full of love and warm fuzzies, but still gives you the information you need to refine the work and get those five star reviews time and time again. And those introductions before we kick off, I know we all have different processes based on what works for us, how we work, how we like to perceive information, and the types of clients we work with and our businesses and agencies. So with that in mind, let's kick things off with a round of what is your favorite feedback that you've ever gotten that was not. Hey, we love this. No edits. And Grace, can I pick on you first?
Grace Fortune (02:00):
Yeah, absolutely. My inner lazy person absolutely loves no edits needed. I'm not going to lie. However, the best feedback that I. Oh, gosh, I wish I could read it out too because it was awesome. But they basically told me that it was like I was in their head. And they ended up getting like a ton of different new leads from the emails that I wrote. For context, the project was I was writing an email sequence for a financial advisor doing a webinar. Once I finished writing the emails, they sent it to their clients and they ended up getting, I think it was like 45 new leads just from a series of like six emails, which is really big for them. It was over two months worth of new leads for them in just like a week or two.
Erin Pennings (02:39):
It's amazing, you know?
Grace Fortune (02:42):
Yeah. So tangible is important for Me, you.
Erin Pennings (02:46):
Would say, like, it feels like you're in my head was your favorite piece of feedback that you've ever gotten.
Grace Fortune (02:51):
That was a super good compliment and it made me feel great, but the results are really what kind of pushed it over the edge. Yeah.
Erin Pennings (02:59):
Nicole, what's your favorite piece of feedback?
Nicole Morton (03:01):
So my favorite piece of feedback that was not an instant you got. It was, this is a really great start. I wish I had given you more X, like, more paperwork or more information about their processes. We got off to a really good foot, but were missing the nuance, so. And they trusted me enough to do a second round because they felt like they didn't bring enough to the table. So that's my favorite piece of. You didn't get it, but yay, you. But my. My. My favorite feedback was it was more the one one. The positioning work was, it feels like I just got punched in the face and my brain was set on fire, but in the best way possible.
Grace Fortune (03:53):
And she knows who she is, and.
Nicole Morton (03:55):
I hope she's listening. That was so great. But, you know, same thing, like, when you know that you can, like, actually step into your client's skin and really just nail it, there's nothing quite like it.
Erin Pennings (04:06):
I really love that.
Grace Fortune (04:09):
Like, yeah.
Erin Pennings (04:10):
And you set my brain on fire in the best possible way. I always love when I, like, go into a document and people say something and it just makes me smile and light up. But I think my favorite feedback is very similar to yours, Nicole, and it's when someone said, you have done a masterful job of taking what we said and turning it into coffee. It's all wrong, though. And now that I see it, I know why.
Grace Fortune (04:33):
Yes.
Erin Pennings (04:33):
And it had nothing to do with what I had done. And they did a really good job of making it clear. Because when you tell someone that it's all wrong, it's really good to have context as to why. And I think seeing what they said reflected back to them is what made them realize and get to the next step that, oh, this is what I thought I wanted. But it turns out it's not quite right. And the reason I wanted to kick things off with that is because context really, really matters. And so how do you get people to feel comfortable being honest with you when they know that you've put something into it and they're going to be afraid to say something? So let's talk about context and grace.
(05:15):
You have a really great process for getting feedback that drives the kind of warm fuzzies, I think. But is also, like, extraordinarily direct. Because we can't function without direct.
Grace Fortune (05:29):
Yeah. So basically, to provide a little bit of context, which, again, is everything like you just said. Erin, I have a welcome document that I send every single one of my new clients who I write copy for. And in this document, there's literally a section that says how to give good feedback. So there's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Like, this is exactly what it's for. And it outlines how they can give me feedback that I can actually use to make the project go better. I'll give you the tldr. My how to give Good feedback says to read the copy through your prospect's eyes, not your own. You're not meant to consume copy from your client's perspective. You're meant to consume it from the lens of who's this for? Who's reading it.
(06:12):
You can dislike something, but the people who are reading it may need to hear it. How to leave quality feedback is to like. If you see something that you don't like, specify what you don't like and why. And even better, leave an idea for how to improve it, which is where the warm fuzzies come in. For example, this is an exact quote from my document. It says an example of lousy feedback is, meh, this is not good. Change it. That's not helpful. That's extremely vague. And it only leads to more guesswork, which leads to more. I don't like this. Another way to spin it to make it more helpful is can you reword it? I feel like this doesn't align with our brand voice. It's too assertive. I would never say this. Instead, I would say blank. Whatever you would say in that situation.
(07:00):
So it is very direct. And it also is a call out for you to leave what you like. If you leave only critical feedback, it kind of gives you an icky feeling. It makes you feel like you're failing at the project and not doing anything well. And it's true that your clients are not responsible for making you feel warm and fuzzy. They're not responsible for your emotional well being by any stretch of the means. In my feedback section of my document, I tell them that if you love something, I want to know so that I can do it more so that you can continue to love what I'm writing for you. So it's just from that. From that lens. And I just. I try to make sure that they also understand that it's okay to leave.
(07:42):
It is okay to leave feedback Good or bad, but it has to be useful and clear.
Nicole Morton (07:47):
It's brilliant.
Erin Pennings (07:48):
I love that. And I love the way that you've. I've seen, I've gotten the behind the scenes glance at your onboarding document and I think it's brilliant. And Nicole, you have a different approach to feedback too.
Nicole Morton (08:00):
So as a nervous chihuahua and a squishy empath, feedback is very difficult for me. However, ironically, I love doing live edits because I can get information in real time and be able to get to the objection behind the objection. To Grace's point, if you tell me you don't like something, that's great, one, I'm not writing for you, I'm writing for your prospect. And two, I need to know what the objection is so I can go back and fix it and get it more to what your vision should be and what the objectives of the project are. So for me, to do feedback in real time is very helpful. It clears up any ambiguity. It moves the process along very quickly.
(08:43):
I think it benefits everyone because if they're objecting to something that's in the copy and it serves a purpose, I can defend my choices. And then it's their project. So if their no is final, that's it. But I've made my case as to why it's there because I know what best practices are. I know what conversion copy needs to sound like, and I understand what buying psychology does and they don't, and that's why they hired me. So for me to do that all in real time is very helpful.
Grace Fortune (09:09):
I love that. Like, even though the idea of giving live feedback for me, like, it actually kind of makes me want to break them into hives a little bit. Like, that idea terrifies me, but I, I get the purpose of it. I do like the idea of having an actual conversation about it on some level. I know how much you love live feedback, Karen. I just, I admire both of your bravery for embracing that, because I, I've never been able to as a fellow nervous chihuahua, Nicole. But I mean, one thing I kind of want to highlight something that's kind of a recurring theme is like, you want to give your client the space to be direct and not hold back.
(09:45):
They're telling you what they need and what they want, but the goal is for them to focus on the words, not making it personal or about you as a writer. If they've hired you, they know and they should understand that you're the professional and they should trust that you do know what you're doing. And they should have a good reason for giving the feedback that they're giving. Like, if they're going to give you feedback telling you that what you're writing is not right, they should be able to tell you why they, as a professional in their lens, know more than you as a professional in your area of expertise. And the reason why I created such an extensive how to give feedback portion inside my onboarding documentation is because I want to make sure that I'm setting that expectation early on.
(10:28):
I want people to understand that, like, I put time and effort into creating this onboard document. So I'm going to put the same level of care and you can expect that from me throughout the entire project.
Erin Pennings (10:38):
It's interesting and I take a hybrid approach between what you do. So I think it's really interesting. I don't do it in the onboarding document. It starts in the sales process when I'm like, oh, and here's how I handle. It's a portion of you make the edits in the document and then we talk through them in a live review. I will beat on the live review drum, like, sing its praises. And that's a hill I'll die on because I find that there's personally no better way to speed the project along, get that refined feedback where we can talk through things. And it takes some of the pressure off of clients to have to put it all in the document. But I do ask that they go through the document first. And when I deliver copy, right within the copy deck is feedback guidelines.
(11:22):
And so it's in a big, bright yellow box that you literally cannot miss. And then as I record a loom presenting the copy, I do a first loom on. Here's how this is organized. Here's how to give good feedback. And I know if they've watched it or not, because loom gives notifications. And then the directions are very similar. You know, context is everything. Great feedback starts with I love this because or I hate this because. And I'm very clear to let them know that I have no ego in it. And I'd rather they be like hyper direct over glossing over stuff that they don't like because it is their copy. Only once has someone said something that. And it turned out that what she was saying was not. She was just a very direct person.
(12:08):
And so it came across as very harsh in the document. And they went into the call like shivering in fear. And it turned out it was just like how she thought, like, this is all wrong. But it was really just one or two Words that needed to shift. And once we talked through it was just fine. And that's why I love those conversations. Because usually even the writing that comes across as edits is like, no, I don't like this. This is all wrong. I can't figure out what it is. Let's talk is usually nowhere near the reality. I really like being able to see the whites of someone's eyes on a zoom call and say, okay, let's talk this through. Because they might also be saying, oh, it's fine.
(12:45):
And then you can see in their eyes the body language that they're holding back, and it's like, oh, well, let's talk about this a little bit more. But what I like is that. So before our live review calls, I ask people to have their feedback in the document 24 hours before so I know that they're not just, like, sliding through it, looking at it for the first time. 20 minutes before our call, they've had a chance to actually look for it. And then we hop in the call, and we use those comments as guidelines for going through the copy.
(13:13):
And that way, if they really like most of it, or 80% of it, or 10% of it, we can skip over the stuff that they like for the most part and really focus our time on the parts that need a little bit more tlc. And, you know, we talk about, like, not, do you like it? Does this communicate effectively what we're trying to communicate? And I've been guilty of saying, well, it just needs to pop. It needs a little bit more pizzazz. Like, when I'm working with designers, which is the worst possible thing you can say to design. But that way, if they don't have that, if they're like, it just needs to pop, it takes the pressure off of them to put it exactly in writing. And then it gives us again that opportunity to talk through what they mean specifically.
Nicole Morton (13:57):
What is pop exactly?
Erin Pennings (13:59):
What is pop exactly? And I. I think, you know, they'll think of. They'll be thinking something's incredibly clear in their writing, and when it comes down to it, they're maybe not written communicators. And, you know, we're all guilty of it, where it's like, oh, what do you mean you're not in my head? Clearly, I have high expectations if I expect them to read my mind.
Grace Fortune (14:23):
Yeah. I gotta say, Aaron, you're kind of selling me on this whole life thing. As much as I hate the idea of having someone on zoom cutting through my writing. But I get what you Mean though, like there's a lot to be said for seeing, as you said, the light through somebody's eyes when they're talking through it. Sometimes when you're just leaving like little bits of feedback, sometimes some tone can be a bit lost if they're not natural writers. Right. Some things can come along more harshly than they may be intended, so. But when you're talking, you get to see their body language, you get to see how they're actually seeing these things and it goes to show like it's not what you said, it's how you said it.
Erin Pennings (15:00):
Right. That's great, you know.
Grace Fortune (15:04):
Yeah, it's fine. Oh my goodness.
Erin Pennings (15:06):
Have you either one of you ever had trouble getting feedback from a client? So I think that's part of the conversation around getting feedback is not just getting good feedback like with this system, but how do you ensure they actually share it and you're not placing them processes because I know, I'm like, have you ever. I know full well. We have all had this issue.
Grace Fortune (15:28):
Nicole. I heard that long suffering sigh. Tell me a story.
Nicole Morton (15:33):
You know, we experienced in that at scale on the agency side, it just like part of heading that off at the pass is having a timeline in place, giving them direction. Feedback by X date would be appreciated. Also when you have the project kickoff, you have the timeline in place and then again can lead a horse to water. So you have to give them consequences. So if feedback is not received by X date then it moves the project deadline to X or to Y or whatever. Or if we can't get feedback by this date, then we'll have to move this particular meeting off by a week. And then worst of the worst case, and we've talked about this is the pause clause. Listen, you know, if you're no n Casa, you're affecting everything around me. So there's consequences and then there's punitive consequences for.
(16:22):
And it rarely gets to that point. But just being abundantly clear about what your expectations are.
Grace Fortune (16:28):
Yeah, I love that. And for somebody like me who's not in the agency space, like I have a point where if I don't receive feedback and again this is made very clear before they sign the dotted line that if they don't give me feedback in a timely fashion and that's all like pre orchestrated before I start writing, if they don't give me feedback by a certain time or within a certain time period, there may come a point where the project is considered done and nested. No more revisions, no More reviews for me. If you want to reengage with me at a later date, that's fine, but you don't get to just monopolize my calendar by putting me on hold and preventing me from doing my other work. So it's all about getting those expectations clearly in.
(17:09):
In writing beforehand, whatever your business looks like, whether it's an agency or whether you're just small potatoes like me.
Erin Pennings (17:16):
Well, and I think if you can write something like that into your contract. Like the pause clause is my favorite. The pause clause, where it's also. Or a ghosting clause, whatever you want to call it. But I also make sure that my final invoices due at the draft delivery.
Grace Fortune (17:31):
Yeah.
Erin Pennings (17:32):
Does that actually always happen? No. However, by setting the expectation, I think that all goes a long ways. Yeah, I agree about pause clauses in the contracting episode, but basically we've just covered it again right here. So to wrap things up here, let's do a round robin real quickly. Rapid fire. Best advice for copywriters and other freelancers who are trying to build feedback into their systems and processes.
Grace Fortune (18:04):
Honestly, my best advice for implementing feedback in your business is don't ignore it. Make sure that you have a very clearly laid out process and that it's communicated clearly to your clients. It will help you strengthen your relationship with them. It'll help establish from the start that you are a professional and that you care about the project from the start, before you even have to anything. And you don't have to reinvent the wheel every single time. You can make it a process. By creating a document like I did, I can make little tweaks here and there to my onboarding documentation and this welcome package I give my clients, but it's all there waiting for me. So if you try to make a new documentation, like off the top every single time, it's going to be overwhelming and be a waste of your time.
(18:49):
So just have something in your back pocket waiting for you to send to your new clients. When it comes to feedback, Nicole, the.
Nicole Morton (18:56):
Number one thing is always assume goodwill. And also that you are working as a partner with your client to deliver the best product you can. So, you know, that's more of a mindset issue than anything.
Erin Pennings (19:10):
I would agree with both of those, and I think having some kind of a template in place to Grace's point, makes it really easy. I have considered recording a video on how to give feedback, but then I realize I change it up enough every time that as long as I have the basis of it in that copy deck, then that's what really matters, because then it's just repeatable.
Grace Fortune (19:31):
Can I get another really quick one?
Erin Pennings (19:33):
No, you're cut off, Grace. No more.
Grace Fortune (19:37):
Oh, my gosh. Okay, so I want to mention that it's a really good idea to showcase how you implemented any feedback that your clients have given you. So, for example, if you send a draft to somebody and they request changes, I would maybe suggest having a little summary of the changes that you've actually made to show that you were listening to them. I mean, if you do live edits like you and Nicole do Erin, then you might not necessarily need to summarize it in your next draft, but that's something you can do as well.
Erin Pennings (20:08):
I love it. You know, it's interesting. Gosh, here I go. I'm like, so let's keep going on this thing that we just wrapped up. When I'm on the other side of it, whether it's with a subcontractor or I'm someone else's client, I like it when they leave my comments in to that point. So I can see not just how they've done it, but that they've done it. Because sometimes I forget what I've said, and it's like, it's twofold. I want to know how they've done it, and I want to, like, have an eye on it because I'm me. But also, I don't want to give them direction one place, one time, and then, like, give them the opposite direction or something that changes that at another point just because I have another idea. Right.
(20:46):
So it helps me, and it will help your clients, I guess, is a more important way to look at it. It will help them understand why you've done specific things. So. Yeah, that's so true on that. This is always one of my favorite topics. And I know Grace, you and I have talked about this in great detail. And Nicole, I know we've talked about it as well, like, just in the behind the scenes of table. So if you all are listening in and have questions or thoughts or, hey, feedback about what you found really helpful in this episode, and if there's anything that you'd like us to talk into more detail on, we would love your feedback as well. No irony intended, but we'd love to know what stood out to you. So, again, I say this about almost every episode.
(21:36):
This has been one of my favorite episodes of the Coffee Table. So we're more than happy to go into more detail on this in a future episode as well. But as we close things out, today. Remember, you can always find us online at www.acopytable.com. All of our episodes are posted there and you can find all of our social channels there as well. Our next episode Can I get a drum roll please? Next episode is all about the offboarding process, so be sure to tune in and listen to that. And we look forward to seeing you back at the coffee table.
Grace Fortune (22:12):
Have a good one. Bye!
Welcome to the Copy Table, the podcast for copywriters who want to get new ideas and inspiration for building and scaling a business you love.
Erin Pennings (00:10):
In this podcast, hosts Grace Fortune, Nicole Morton and Erin Pennings bring new topics and guests to the table every single episode.
Grace Fortune (00:17):
We're spilling the beans on how you can use your interests and expertise to define what success means to you and take steps to achieve it.
Erin Pennings (00:30):
Welcome back to the Coffee Table. Grace Fortune, Nicole Morton and I, Erin Pennings, are here today to talk about how to get great feedback from clients. And this season is all about processes. And the feedback aspect of copywriting is one of the most important processes in my mind because that's how you get really close to final and that's how you get known, that's how people introduce you as a great copywriter, is if you're able to take the feedback, run with it. And part of that means coaching your clients on how to give great feedback.
(01:07):
So today we're going to talk about not just the fact that great feedback doesn't always mean, hey, this is amazing, go forth and conquer, but how to get the good feedback that maybe isn't full of love and warm fuzzies, but still gives you the information you need to refine the work and get those five star reviews time and time again. And those introductions before we kick off, I know we all have different processes based on what works for us, how we work, how we like to perceive information, and the types of clients we work with and our businesses and agencies. So with that in mind, let's kick things off with a round of what is your favorite feedback that you've ever gotten that was not. Hey, we love this. No edits. And Grace, can I pick on you first?
Grace Fortune (02:00):
Yeah, absolutely. My inner lazy person absolutely loves no edits needed. I'm not going to lie. However, the best feedback that I. Oh, gosh, I wish I could read it out too because it was awesome. But they basically told me that it was like I was in their head. And they ended up getting like a ton of different new leads from the emails that I wrote. For context, the project was I was writing an email sequence for a financial advisor doing a webinar. Once I finished writing the emails, they sent it to their clients and they ended up getting, I think it was like 45 new leads just from a series of like six emails, which is really big for them. It was over two months worth of new leads for them in just like a week or two.
Erin Pennings (02:39):
It's amazing, you know?
Grace Fortune (02:42):
Yeah. So tangible is important for Me, you.
Erin Pennings (02:46):
Would say, like, it feels like you're in my head was your favorite piece of feedback that you've ever gotten.
Grace Fortune (02:51):
That was a super good compliment and it made me feel great, but the results are really what kind of pushed it over the edge. Yeah.
Erin Pennings (02:59):
Nicole, what's your favorite piece of feedback?
Nicole Morton (03:01):
So my favorite piece of feedback that was not an instant you got. It was, this is a really great start. I wish I had given you more X, like, more paperwork or more information about their processes. We got off to a really good foot, but were missing the nuance, so. And they trusted me enough to do a second round because they felt like they didn't bring enough to the table. So that's my favorite piece of. You didn't get it, but yay, you. But my. My. My favorite feedback was it was more the one one. The positioning work was, it feels like I just got punched in the face and my brain was set on fire, but in the best way possible.
Grace Fortune (03:53):
And she knows who she is, and.
Nicole Morton (03:55):
I hope she's listening. That was so great. But, you know, same thing, like, when you know that you can, like, actually step into your client's skin and really just nail it, there's nothing quite like it.
Erin Pennings (04:06):
I really love that.
Grace Fortune (04:09):
Like, yeah.
Erin Pennings (04:10):
And you set my brain on fire in the best possible way. I always love when I, like, go into a document and people say something and it just makes me smile and light up. But I think my favorite feedback is very similar to yours, Nicole, and it's when someone said, you have done a masterful job of taking what we said and turning it into coffee. It's all wrong, though. And now that I see it, I know why.
Grace Fortune (04:33):
Yes.
Erin Pennings (04:33):
And it had nothing to do with what I had done. And they did a really good job of making it clear. Because when you tell someone that it's all wrong, it's really good to have context as to why. And I think seeing what they said reflected back to them is what made them realize and get to the next step that, oh, this is what I thought I wanted. But it turns out it's not quite right. And the reason I wanted to kick things off with that is because context really, really matters. And so how do you get people to feel comfortable being honest with you when they know that you've put something into it and they're going to be afraid to say something? So let's talk about context and grace.
(05:15):
You have a really great process for getting feedback that drives the kind of warm fuzzies, I think. But is also, like, extraordinarily direct. Because we can't function without direct.
Grace Fortune (05:29):
Yeah. So basically, to provide a little bit of context, which, again, is everything like you just said. Erin, I have a welcome document that I send every single one of my new clients who I write copy for. And in this document, there's literally a section that says how to give good feedback. So there's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Like, this is exactly what it's for. And it outlines how they can give me feedback that I can actually use to make the project go better. I'll give you the tldr. My how to give Good feedback says to read the copy through your prospect's eyes, not your own. You're not meant to consume copy from your client's perspective. You're meant to consume it from the lens of who's this for? Who's reading it.
(06:12):
You can dislike something, but the people who are reading it may need to hear it. How to leave quality feedback is to like. If you see something that you don't like, specify what you don't like and why. And even better, leave an idea for how to improve it, which is where the warm fuzzies come in. For example, this is an exact quote from my document. It says an example of lousy feedback is, meh, this is not good. Change it. That's not helpful. That's extremely vague. And it only leads to more guesswork, which leads to more. I don't like this. Another way to spin it to make it more helpful is can you reword it? I feel like this doesn't align with our brand voice. It's too assertive. I would never say this. Instead, I would say blank. Whatever you would say in that situation.
(07:00):
So it is very direct. And it also is a call out for you to leave what you like. If you leave only critical feedback, it kind of gives you an icky feeling. It makes you feel like you're failing at the project and not doing anything well. And it's true that your clients are not responsible for making you feel warm and fuzzy. They're not responsible for your emotional well being by any stretch of the means. In my feedback section of my document, I tell them that if you love something, I want to know so that I can do it more so that you can continue to love what I'm writing for you. So it's just from that. From that lens. And I just. I try to make sure that they also understand that it's okay to leave.
(07:42):
It is okay to leave feedback Good or bad, but it has to be useful and clear.
Nicole Morton (07:47):
It's brilliant.
Erin Pennings (07:48):
I love that. And I love the way that you've. I've seen, I've gotten the behind the scenes glance at your onboarding document and I think it's brilliant. And Nicole, you have a different approach to feedback too.
Nicole Morton (08:00):
So as a nervous chihuahua and a squishy empath, feedback is very difficult for me. However, ironically, I love doing live edits because I can get information in real time and be able to get to the objection behind the objection. To Grace's point, if you tell me you don't like something, that's great, one, I'm not writing for you, I'm writing for your prospect. And two, I need to know what the objection is so I can go back and fix it and get it more to what your vision should be and what the objectives of the project are. So for me, to do feedback in real time is very helpful. It clears up any ambiguity. It moves the process along very quickly.
(08:43):
I think it benefits everyone because if they're objecting to something that's in the copy and it serves a purpose, I can defend my choices. And then it's their project. So if their no is final, that's it. But I've made my case as to why it's there because I know what best practices are. I know what conversion copy needs to sound like, and I understand what buying psychology does and they don't, and that's why they hired me. So for me to do that all in real time is very helpful.
Grace Fortune (09:09):
I love that. Like, even though the idea of giving live feedback for me, like, it actually kind of makes me want to break them into hives a little bit. Like, that idea terrifies me, but I, I get the purpose of it. I do like the idea of having an actual conversation about it on some level. I know how much you love live feedback, Karen. I just, I admire both of your bravery for embracing that, because I, I've never been able to as a fellow nervous chihuahua, Nicole. But I mean, one thing I kind of want to highlight something that's kind of a recurring theme is like, you want to give your client the space to be direct and not hold back.
(09:45):
They're telling you what they need and what they want, but the goal is for them to focus on the words, not making it personal or about you as a writer. If they've hired you, they know and they should understand that you're the professional and they should trust that you do know what you're doing. And they should have a good reason for giving the feedback that they're giving. Like, if they're going to give you feedback telling you that what you're writing is not right, they should be able to tell you why they, as a professional in their lens, know more than you as a professional in your area of expertise. And the reason why I created such an extensive how to give feedback portion inside my onboarding documentation is because I want to make sure that I'm setting that expectation early on.
(10:28):
I want people to understand that, like, I put time and effort into creating this onboard document. So I'm going to put the same level of care and you can expect that from me throughout the entire project.
Erin Pennings (10:38):
It's interesting and I take a hybrid approach between what you do. So I think it's really interesting. I don't do it in the onboarding document. It starts in the sales process when I'm like, oh, and here's how I handle. It's a portion of you make the edits in the document and then we talk through them in a live review. I will beat on the live review drum, like, sing its praises. And that's a hill I'll die on because I find that there's personally no better way to speed the project along, get that refined feedback where we can talk through things. And it takes some of the pressure off of clients to have to put it all in the document. But I do ask that they go through the document first. And when I deliver copy, right within the copy deck is feedback guidelines.
(11:22):
And so it's in a big, bright yellow box that you literally cannot miss. And then as I record a loom presenting the copy, I do a first loom on. Here's how this is organized. Here's how to give good feedback. And I know if they've watched it or not, because loom gives notifications. And then the directions are very similar. You know, context is everything. Great feedback starts with I love this because or I hate this because. And I'm very clear to let them know that I have no ego in it. And I'd rather they be like hyper direct over glossing over stuff that they don't like because it is their copy. Only once has someone said something that. And it turned out that what she was saying was not. She was just a very direct person.
(12:08):
And so it came across as very harsh in the document. And they went into the call like shivering in fear. And it turned out it was just like how she thought, like, this is all wrong. But it was really just one or two Words that needed to shift. And once we talked through it was just fine. And that's why I love those conversations. Because usually even the writing that comes across as edits is like, no, I don't like this. This is all wrong. I can't figure out what it is. Let's talk is usually nowhere near the reality. I really like being able to see the whites of someone's eyes on a zoom call and say, okay, let's talk this through. Because they might also be saying, oh, it's fine.
(12:45):
And then you can see in their eyes the body language that they're holding back, and it's like, oh, well, let's talk about this a little bit more. But what I like is that. So before our live review calls, I ask people to have their feedback in the document 24 hours before so I know that they're not just, like, sliding through it, looking at it for the first time. 20 minutes before our call, they've had a chance to actually look for it. And then we hop in the call, and we use those comments as guidelines for going through the copy.
(13:13):
And that way, if they really like most of it, or 80% of it, or 10% of it, we can skip over the stuff that they like for the most part and really focus our time on the parts that need a little bit more tlc. And, you know, we talk about, like, not, do you like it? Does this communicate effectively what we're trying to communicate? And I've been guilty of saying, well, it just needs to pop. It needs a little bit more pizzazz. Like, when I'm working with designers, which is the worst possible thing you can say to design. But that way, if they don't have that, if they're like, it just needs to pop, it takes the pressure off of them to put it exactly in writing. And then it gives us again that opportunity to talk through what they mean specifically.
Nicole Morton (13:57):
What is pop exactly?
Erin Pennings (13:59):
What is pop exactly? And I. I think, you know, they'll think of. They'll be thinking something's incredibly clear in their writing, and when it comes down to it, they're maybe not written communicators. And, you know, we're all guilty of it, where it's like, oh, what do you mean you're not in my head? Clearly, I have high expectations if I expect them to read my mind.
Grace Fortune (14:23):
Yeah. I gotta say, Aaron, you're kind of selling me on this whole life thing. As much as I hate the idea of having someone on zoom cutting through my writing. But I get what you Mean though, like there's a lot to be said for seeing, as you said, the light through somebody's eyes when they're talking through it. Sometimes when you're just leaving like little bits of feedback, sometimes some tone can be a bit lost if they're not natural writers. Right. Some things can come along more harshly than they may be intended, so. But when you're talking, you get to see their body language, you get to see how they're actually seeing these things and it goes to show like it's not what you said, it's how you said it.
Erin Pennings (15:00):
Right. That's great, you know.
Grace Fortune (15:04):
Yeah, it's fine. Oh my goodness.
Erin Pennings (15:06):
Have you either one of you ever had trouble getting feedback from a client? So I think that's part of the conversation around getting feedback is not just getting good feedback like with this system, but how do you ensure they actually share it and you're not placing them processes because I know, I'm like, have you ever. I know full well. We have all had this issue.
Grace Fortune (15:28):
Nicole. I heard that long suffering sigh. Tell me a story.
Nicole Morton (15:33):
You know, we experienced in that at scale on the agency side, it just like part of heading that off at the pass is having a timeline in place, giving them direction. Feedback by X date would be appreciated. Also when you have the project kickoff, you have the timeline in place and then again can lead a horse to water. So you have to give them consequences. So if feedback is not received by X date then it moves the project deadline to X or to Y or whatever. Or if we can't get feedback by this date, then we'll have to move this particular meeting off by a week. And then worst of the worst case, and we've talked about this is the pause clause. Listen, you know, if you're no n Casa, you're affecting everything around me. So there's consequences and then there's punitive consequences for.
(16:22):
And it rarely gets to that point. But just being abundantly clear about what your expectations are.
Grace Fortune (16:28):
Yeah, I love that. And for somebody like me who's not in the agency space, like I have a point where if I don't receive feedback and again this is made very clear before they sign the dotted line that if they don't give me feedback in a timely fashion and that's all like pre orchestrated before I start writing, if they don't give me feedback by a certain time or within a certain time period, there may come a point where the project is considered done and nested. No more revisions, no More reviews for me. If you want to reengage with me at a later date, that's fine, but you don't get to just monopolize my calendar by putting me on hold and preventing me from doing my other work. So it's all about getting those expectations clearly in.
(17:09):
In writing beforehand, whatever your business looks like, whether it's an agency or whether you're just small potatoes like me.
Erin Pennings (17:16):
Well, and I think if you can write something like that into your contract. Like the pause clause is my favorite. The pause clause, where it's also. Or a ghosting clause, whatever you want to call it. But I also make sure that my final invoices due at the draft delivery.
Grace Fortune (17:31):
Yeah.
Erin Pennings (17:32):
Does that actually always happen? No. However, by setting the expectation, I think that all goes a long ways. Yeah, I agree about pause clauses in the contracting episode, but basically we've just covered it again right here. So to wrap things up here, let's do a round robin real quickly. Rapid fire. Best advice for copywriters and other freelancers who are trying to build feedback into their systems and processes.
Grace Fortune (18:04):
Honestly, my best advice for implementing feedback in your business is don't ignore it. Make sure that you have a very clearly laid out process and that it's communicated clearly to your clients. It will help you strengthen your relationship with them. It'll help establish from the start that you are a professional and that you care about the project from the start, before you even have to anything. And you don't have to reinvent the wheel every single time. You can make it a process. By creating a document like I did, I can make little tweaks here and there to my onboarding documentation and this welcome package I give my clients, but it's all there waiting for me. So if you try to make a new documentation, like off the top every single time, it's going to be overwhelming and be a waste of your time.
(18:49):
So just have something in your back pocket waiting for you to send to your new clients. When it comes to feedback, Nicole, the.
Nicole Morton (18:56):
Number one thing is always assume goodwill. And also that you are working as a partner with your client to deliver the best product you can. So, you know, that's more of a mindset issue than anything.
Erin Pennings (19:10):
I would agree with both of those, and I think having some kind of a template in place to Grace's point, makes it really easy. I have considered recording a video on how to give feedback, but then I realize I change it up enough every time that as long as I have the basis of it in that copy deck, then that's what really matters, because then it's just repeatable.
Grace Fortune (19:31):
Can I get another really quick one?
Erin Pennings (19:33):
No, you're cut off, Grace. No more.
Grace Fortune (19:37):
Oh, my gosh. Okay, so I want to mention that it's a really good idea to showcase how you implemented any feedback that your clients have given you. So, for example, if you send a draft to somebody and they request changes, I would maybe suggest having a little summary of the changes that you've actually made to show that you were listening to them. I mean, if you do live edits like you and Nicole do Erin, then you might not necessarily need to summarize it in your next draft, but that's something you can do as well.
Erin Pennings (20:08):
I love it. You know, it's interesting. Gosh, here I go. I'm like, so let's keep going on this thing that we just wrapped up. When I'm on the other side of it, whether it's with a subcontractor or I'm someone else's client, I like it when they leave my comments in to that point. So I can see not just how they've done it, but that they've done it. Because sometimes I forget what I've said, and it's like, it's twofold. I want to know how they've done it, and I want to, like, have an eye on it because I'm me. But also, I don't want to give them direction one place, one time, and then, like, give them the opposite direction or something that changes that at another point just because I have another idea. Right.
(20:46):
So it helps me, and it will help your clients, I guess, is a more important way to look at it. It will help them understand why you've done specific things. So. Yeah, that's so true on that. This is always one of my favorite topics. And I know Grace, you and I have talked about this in great detail. And Nicole, I know we've talked about it as well, like, just in the behind the scenes of table. So if you all are listening in and have questions or thoughts or, hey, feedback about what you found really helpful in this episode, and if there's anything that you'd like us to talk into more detail on, we would love your feedback as well. No irony intended, but we'd love to know what stood out to you. So, again, I say this about almost every episode.
(21:36):
This has been one of my favorite episodes of the Coffee Table. So we're more than happy to go into more detail on this in a future episode as well. But as we close things out, today. Remember, you can always find us online at www.acopytable.com. All of our episodes are posted there and you can find all of our social channels there as well. Our next episode Can I get a drum roll please? Next episode is all about the offboarding process, so be sure to tune in and listen to that. And we look forward to seeing you back at the coffee table.
Grace Fortune (22:12):
Have a good one. Bye!
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