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May 1, 2025 67 mins
What Your Dog Is Really Feeling?   What if your dog’s "bad behaviour" isn’t disobedience - but communication?   In this episode of The Dog Expert Podcast, Jo Middleton, Emily Dustan and guests Linda Michaels M.A. and Dr. Jessica Pierce, dive into the emotional lives of dogs. From joy and fear to frustration and grief, we explore the emotions behind common behaviours - and why recognising them is the key to building trust, resilience, and lasting change.   You’ll learn what the science says about canine emotions, how to spot the emotional signals your dog is giving you every day, and why emotional safety matters more than obedience.   If you've ever wondered what your dog is really feeling, this episode is for you. The Dog Expert Podcast is powered by CaninePrinciples.com
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Episode Transcript

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(00:10):
Welcome to the Dog Expert Podcast.
The podcast dogs would want you to listen to, powered by canine principles.com.
Helping passionate dog people go from feeling unsure and overwhelmed to confident, compassionate, and science savvy through a rich library of online courses and formal qualifications.

(00:34):
Each week on the podcast, we dive deep into the real, raw and rewarding world of dogs.
This isn't about obedience, this is about understanding, because dogs aren't problems to solve.
They're free thinking, sentient beings to connect with.

(00:56):
Have you had a good week, Emily? Oh, it's been good.
Rainy, but good.
I have sorted my headphones out, so I am fully prepared and full on excited for today's discussion.
Super excited.
And wasn't the feedback wonderful from our first episode? Oh, absolutely.
It was for your first episode.

(01:17):
It can be quite overwhelming, right? So I was so happy with all the positive feedback we received.
Yeah, absolutely.
And some questions in as well and suggestions of what we can talk about in future episodes, which is super exciting.
We have got some amazing guests lined up today, haven't we? We really do.

(01:39):
Like a kid on Christmas, my excitement is surreal.
You and me both.
it's been a really quick week and it's come round so quickly, but at the same time it's gone really slowly because I've been so excited for the guest speakers that we have on this week's episode.

(02:00):
So today we are going to be covering emotions and dogs and how that plays a role in behavior as well as the importance of how understanding their emotions can really help you shape the desired behaviors you're looking for your dog, and also understanding what they're going through.
I feel it's such an important topic because if you can understand from a different perspective instead of The thought of the dog's disobedient, the dog's listening, and all those things in between, it actually brings that compassion into it the understanding is what helps us humans approach it in a much better way.

(02:37):
the two ladies that we have got, this evening coming on our podcast that we're delighted to host are absolute experts in all things dog.
let's introduce them.
the.
Two guests that we have are Linda Michaels, who has an MA in psychology.
She's an author and speaker.
She's rated one of the top 10 dog trainers in the United States by Top 10 Magazine.

(03:04):
Linda has conducted laboratory research in behavioral neurobiology, examining the interface between behavior in the brain and is the creator of the internationally acclaimed hierarchy of dog needs.
Now Linda has got a wonderful book.
If you haven't read the book, I'm going to put the link in the comments.

(03:25):
You need to get a copy of this book.
It's called the Do No Harm Dog Training and Behavior Handbook, which features the hierarchy of dog needs.
So you don't need to get the two separately.
It's all in the book.
the other.
Guest speaker we have is equally as awesome.
we have Dr.
Jessica Pierce, a faculty affiliate at the Center for Bioethics and Humanities at the University of Colorado and shoots medical school.

(03:53):
She's been writing and lecturing about the moral contours of human dog relationships for over 15 years and is a leading scholar in animal ethics.
Amazing.
Oh, I'm gonna put a link to Jessica's most recent book in the comments as well, so you can get that one.
It's called Who's a Good Dog? she's published 11 books, including the Last Walk and Run Spot Run, as well as hundreds of scholarly and popular articles.

(04:22):
So I am going to introduce the ladies that are joining us now.
Hello.
Hello, Jessica.
Hello.
So glad you could join us.
Hi Linda.
How are you? Hi everyone.
I'm just delighted to be here.
Thank you.
we are so glad you could join us and we're really keen to, talk about so many different things with you guys.

(04:50):
So we are going to try and keep it on track of canine emotion.
so I guess if we start maybe with you, Linda, if you don't mind telling us a bit more about, what canine emotions are for someone who doesn't know.

(05:14):
Actually, when I was thinking about, this question, what occurred to me is the history of the science of emotions.
most of us know that Darwin in 1871, talked about from his observations, he understood, we can see pain, pleasure, happiness, sadness and fear, in social and other animals.

(05:41):
And what's really interesting about Darwin is did you know that Darwin studied dogs? Oh, no, I didn't.
I did not.
That's amazing.
Learned that about six months ago.
Yeah.
he studied dogs, artificial selection and he used a dog lover, like a big dog lover.
Like one of us.
One of us, That's amazing.

(06:04):
We have the evolutionary theory on the science of emotions starting with Darwin.
And then I was thinking about Dr.
Beckoff, who, he, so many of us are fans and, in the field of mythology and animal behavior.
he talked about biology and of course, since the 1990s, researchers have known that dogs have patterns of attachments that are similar to patterns of human attachment.

(06:34):
So then we have the ethology part and then a PSAP went on to study the biology of hormones and neuromodulators.
So he brought that biology piece and the physio piece.
And then neuroscience, with Dr.
Gregory Burns, with the functional MRIs, observed activity in dogs and their connection with us.

(06:58):
And discovered that the same areas in the brain light up when a dog sees its person as light up when a human baby sees its mother.
Phenomenal.
So many pieces historically.
I just thought that was so interesting.
We've got it all now.
So who can deny? In fact, Bekoff said, if I may quote, it's bad biology to argue against the existence of animal emotions.

(07:27):
A hundred percent.
So true.
And Jessica, if we can come over to you, and maybe you can share your perspective on how canine emotions fit with behavior and what they actually are.
Yeah.
Building on what Linda said it's remarkable to me that anybody ever asked the question, do dogs have emotions? instead it's what emotions do dogs have and How are they experiencing those emotions? What's their lived experience of emotions? And for me as an ethicist, the note of interest there is, what do canine emotions tell us about how best to, live well with our companions? and of course, the point being we have to find ways to live with them That respect their emotional lives with our children, we want them to be happy.

(08:28):
And that doesn't mean there aren't some disappointments and difficult things in life, but overall arc of their lives is, we hope happiness.
And I think, with dogs it's similar.
dogs experience a whole range of what a scientist would call affect negative and positive affect or feelings.
And trying to keep the balance on the positive side of that as much as we can.

(08:53):
we can't protect our dogs from all negative emotions, negative emotional experiences, but we can do a lot to, reduce, the.
The amount of negative experience that they feel in their daily life.
emotions have evolved to help organisms navigate their environment successfully to put it in the most basic terms a pleasurable or positive emotion is a sign that, that's something to pursue.

(09:24):
Whether it's food, sex, whatever, love things that are gonna be a adaptive to an organism, in survival are things are gonna be associated with a positive affect.
likewise, negative affect is linked to things that are dangerous, potentially going to, shorten your life.
the limbic system is primarily, responsible for, the emotional system in mammals, it's important to recognize that, evolution is a conservative process human and dog emotions are, very similar and have evolved along the same path.

(10:07):
that's important for listeners to understand.
dogs experience the same basic range of emotions as we do.
Dogs feel, fear, rage, joy, love, grief, sadness, excitement, frustration, boredom.
I don't think there's any scientific disagreement about those basic facts.

(10:31):
I think where the story is a little more complicated and interesting is whether and to what extent and in what ways dogs experience more complex emotions like, guilt or jealousy or shame.
my own sense is that the jury is out on that still, and they likely do and we just don't understand very much about it.

(10:52):
it's hard To study emotions in dogs because they can't talk to us in the language that we're used to.
we have to use what are called behavioral correlates or basically, we have a pretty good idea that when an animal is doing X it means they're feeling why.
Yeah.
We can do that with pretty good precision.

(11:15):
But I think it's also important to recognize that it's not a hundred percent, we absolutely know what's going on inside the dog's mind, there's gonna be some mystery there, which I actually, love in our relationship with them.
so recognizing that they feel.
The same things we do their lived experiences of emotions are not necessarily the same as ours.

(11:40):
So you can't just say, that makes me happy, therefore it's gonna make my dog happy.
I agree.
It's not quite so seamless and I like this.
The points that you brought up are so important.
I just wanna briefly bring up the one where you mentioned that, dogs feel the same, the cognitive abilities differ, because of the species.
I also agree with, they absolutely feel you can't look at a dog in this day and age and tell me that they don't feel, they absolutely do and they can even feel.

(12:09):
Conflicting emotions.
we see dogs that are excited or aroused when somebody enters the door in the home.
However, they have that startle response of friend or foe, I wanna greet you, but I'm not sure.
Now I'm close to you or too close.
Change my mind.
And they can go through such a vast amount of emotions in such a quick time to the point of what you're saying, we cannot protect them from everything.

(12:34):
But if we understand their emotional responses and how their emotions affect their behavior, we can give them the tools and life skills they're missing to navigate.
Have emotional resilience to recover much faster.
All these things are so important when it comes to emotions, because if you have a confident dog, even if something awful happens to them, that confidence, you are most likely going to get a quicker recovery.

(13:03):
Because you've got that connection, you've got that relationship, you've got that bond and that trust and the bounce back would be a lot faster as well.
this is one of my most favorite topics of all time.
And I wish I could say everything in my brain.
but if we just have a little look about how emotions show up in behavior, because when you know what to look for, it becomes clear that behavior is emotion made visible, you might see a joyful dog that is bouncy and.

(13:35):
Wiggly and playful body language.
You might see a scared dog that freezes cowers or tries to flee a situation.
a frustrated dog might become vocal or start redirecting that frustration to destructing something or even self-mutilation.

(13:58):
they're not random things that are happening.
They're expressions of their emotion and it's really communication in motion.
I found that, one of the things that confuse, pet parents and confused me before I started studying, the fascinating subterranean world of dogs was that a dog for example, the way an emotion shows up, a dog can either, in a state of fear, either bark and lunge or try to run away.

(14:35):
these are both expressions of fear and it's interesting that, most of us and most of our dogs, when given the opportunity would run away.
It's adaptive to survival to run away.
You don't wanna fight.
You could become injured.
We have the dogs on a leash, they cannot run away so often.

(14:57):
They're either gonna maybe try to run behind us, but that doesn't work so well.
So they do like an offensive defense.
Yes.
And I just wanted, to mention that the way I got involved in this field was, my work in dog welfare, at the Humane Society.
we cannot separate what we're talking about from dog welfare, right? So in understanding emotions, we're going to be better able to, as Jessica was talking about, the different ways that we can understand more deeply, what is driving the behavior and looking at the emotions and.

(15:34):
When I went to the Humane Society, looking for a thesis project, what I saw was Pan SEPs grief.
And as Emily said, looking into the eyes of these dogs This bewilderment And fear and just being lost in the environment.

(15:58):
it just struck me so deeply that I thought, oh my gosh, I could use my graduate training to try to help these dogs.
grief is so real and that abandonment, and we study all of, the attachment theories that are similar with humans.
as they are with dogs bonding with humans as humans, babies bonding to their mothers.

(16:24):
Anyway when I think about bad behavior, most behavior is an expression of need.
It's an expression of an unmet need or an under met need.
when we look at what is the dog missing in terms of needs, and we fill those needs, we often solve behavior problems.

(16:49):
It seems like magic.
So true.
I just quickly share a sort of lived experience of that grief.
seeing that grief in dogs and Linda and I both very passionate about helping dogs.
who were up for Rehoming or who've been relinquished we, were very blessed to go to Batey Dog's home do a tour and meet some of the dogs there.

(17:10):
I was called by our local police force, going back a few years now, and asked to go and pick a dog up that the police had found with a deceased body, and the dog had been with its guardian.
With a body for three days without food, without anything, just literally lying with its guardian's body.

(17:36):
and I went and I put it in my van and when I got it out at the other end at home, I got the dog out of the van and it laid down on the pavement and just froze completely.
And there were people literally walking.
Down with other dogs, straight past it.
And there, there was no one there.

(17:57):
That dog was completely shut down.
Rats out.
Completely shut down.
luckily, a wonderful friend, a holistic vet.
bought out her zoo farm kit and we were there for six hours before the dog was able to stand up and start to come round.
that grief shock and trauma just Yeah, the trauma.

(18:19):
and you can't tell me that dog wasn't feeling all sorts of emotions during that time, to get to the point where it was shut down while its mind was just exploding.
for that dog to go through.
Such a huge amount of feelings to the point where the brain goes, Nope, I'm out.

(18:39):
Can't do this anymore.
We need shut down complete survival mode.
And that's our primitive wiring.
And you can't, it's so you freeze flight fidget foreign faint responses that are involuntary and you have not, one individual mammal, is in control of this because the brain goes, what's happening? You have your receptors.

(19:01):
It sends the messages to all the right parts of the brain.
And then when it's such a huge volume of feelings, it's just that switch off learned helplessness state.
Yeah.
And that is just awful.
Absolutely awful.
And I think your story, Joe, is a really good illustration that, I think one thing that bothers me about the way dog emotions Talked about or portrayed in the media as like dogs have emotions.

(19:29):
they have fear, rage, joy, like these discrete emotional experiences.
They can feel these things.
But that kind of overlooks the fact that dogs don't just experience emotions.
They are emotional beings.
Yeah.
They are a complex of emotion at all time.

(19:49):
Of course.
And to point, point, Emily, that it's, yeah, it's often a really complex mix of emotions how many times has somebody said to you, how do you feel about this? you don't really know.
I feel a lot of things I feel happy and sad and, grateful and angry there's no reason to think dogs are also not.
These very complex emotional beings, and we need to really be sensitive to, they're sensitive beings.

(20:20):
and what really upsets me, and why I've written so many books about this, where people are like, shut up about it already.
No one is saying that everyone's saying more, we want more.
I feel like, dog owners, dog guardians, whatever you wanna call them, and I think this is true for all companion animals, not just dogs, but cats, probably even worse for lizards and snakes.

(20:46):
animals that certainly have emotions but are more difficult for us to relate to or understand, The way we keep them as pets is emotionally traumatic and challenging for them, and we don't do a lot to compensate for that.

(21:06):
Or help them adapt.
we simply get mad at them for not being what we expected.
I love what you just said.
we get mad at them for not being what we expected.
Actually, Jess, I have a question for you, on what you've just said.
Dogs feel sad, happy.
these, basic line of emotions, and they are complex.

(21:27):
from what I understand and how I feel and experience is that yes, they can feel all those things, but as human beings, because we have higher cognitive abilities, we can, Self-talk and rationalize and identify and pick.
I feel sad because of XI, this led me to do this.
Maybe I've not been my best self lately because I've been super, super stressed and all other experiences, genetics, which heightens certain emotional responses.

(21:55):
It's like an endless topic, right? But when it comes to, my dog's done this and we don't set them up for success, and we get frustrated.
It's not even just the lack of understanding it's also what's put out there what's always put out there in the media, in books, in reels.
'cause everything's now in reels and you get these instant gratification of a 15 second reel and you're like, what? Look what that person did with that dog.

(22:20):
That's amazing.
But they don't understand.
they don't see what happens behind the scenes.
when you actually understand dog body language and emotions and you can connect the two together, when you're watching that reel, you can see that dog is not happy.
Yes, it looks amazing that this dog has complied and doing all these great things, but what's happened behind the scenes for that video is something very scary.

(22:44):
When we compare and go, yes, dogs are not little people in fur coats and they're not children.
However, their emotions are incredibly similar to ours.
as an adult dog wouldn't have more than a two and a half to 3-year-old child.
it's a great way to help a person, a pet parent, a guardian, like you said, understand going actually I wouldn't do that to my child because I understand my child wouldn't understand that.

(23:10):
I know that.
And that would be stressful.
people tend to do a lot more for their children because they connect more with their children, because they are a species, they're human and it's easier to understand.
Whereas a dog, something missed, something falls, something misses.
The good thing is I think there are a lot more people willing to do anything for their dogs.

(23:32):
I'm so lucky with the clients that I've worked with here in New Zealand, even in South Africa I'm not taking that away.
I'm just saying as a behaviorist and trainer, I've been really blessed for the people who come through with me that they just give it their all and really apply the steps.
But then before I see them, the knowledge they had prior was what could have been a huge influencing factor to the problem behaviors they're currently experiencing.

(24:00):
Can I bring it back to safety, though? Emotional safety because if a dog feels safe, it feels seen, it feels heard.
It is so much more capable of learning and adapting and thriving.
Whereas when we're ignoring the emotions, which for decades with traditional dog training has been the case, it's all focused on, the compliance or the obedience over actually understanding the dog's emotions and rewarding, the behavior that we want to see more of Punishing what might be perceived from a human perspective as bad behavior.

(24:42):
we don't want to suppress the dog's emotional state.
We want to promote that emotional safety so that they are able to express their emotions because so many dogs go into learned helplessness where they give up trying to communicate because they don't feel that their communication's been heard by the humans around them.

(25:08):
the emotion doesn't go away.
It just gets buried It festers, but then you get the, oh, look how good they're being so good at the grooming table.
They're walking so nicely.
But it's that learned helplessness that you were saying the dog is doing.
This is too much.
I'm done.
I'm just gonna be still, because if I'm still, that increases my chances of survival.
If I'm still, then maybe I'll be okay.

(25:31):
Chronic immobility, emotional safety.
I recently revised the once every five years, I separated emotional safety, and it's the first thing on emotional needs from physical safety because emotional safety, is really the prime directive in our lives and in our dog's lives.

(25:54):
We are always first and foremost concerned with, am I safe? If we're not safe, or if we don't feel safe.
a perceived threat can be every bit as damaging as a real threat.
For example, the beep of the shock collar, just the beep can send a dog into a state of panic.

(26:18):
And it is just so damaging.
if I may speak for a minute.
Yes.
by the way, Emily, I believe the two to 3-year-old toddler study was again, Dr.
Gregory Burns with the functional MRIs.
He was looking at impulse control.
he learned that, dogs have approximately the same degree of impulse control as a toddler.

(26:43):
these analogies, of parents to children and us to our dogs are so helpful.
I found that's been a real breakthrough point in me being able to reach my clients because there are so many comparisons we can do and extrapolate the data from all the research we've done on animals and used it for humans.

(27:07):
Let's take that research that we've done on animals and use it for the animals for their benefit.
I just wanted to, remark on something Jessica said about the complexity of emotions with a case that I just have never been able to get out of my mind.
It was a little dog, I think a Chihuahua cross called Jellybean, it was a fear case when I showed up at Jellybeans house that, the pet mom told me.

(27:38):
I can't let you in right away because she will go and hide behind between the refrigerator and the cabinet, and she won't come out.
So we're gonna meet you outside.
So I said, good idea.
Yes, let's do that.
And then I kept my distance and little jelly bean saw me, I had treats and I said, hi sweetie, how are you doing? I was, down low and doing all the things to appear less threatening.

(28:08):
you talk about body language and the complex emotions, this little dog, her body was like an upside down u.
the ears flat.
The eyes were bulging.
she went down on her stomach and started crawling toward me.
urinating all the way because she was in such conflict between wanting to bond with me and being so afraid of a stranger.

(28:37):
So yeah, it's not just one emotion at a time.
It's very complex.
on the topic of expectations, why is it that pet parents have no expectations for cats? we have these realistic, what we don't expect from dogs, it's like the world and more.

(28:58):
And, all I love that point so much.
Yeah.
Isn't that so much messaging though, like cultural messaging? Cats are their own people.
Cats is the cat, is your master and dogs, dogs are a totally different.
Experience.
it's probably wrong on both ends.
cats are far more willing to work with us.

(29:21):
And, just two notes on the things that we've been talking about.
the issue of dogs as two or three year olds.
I understand that scientifically, and I think what I also see is a danger of, and this is related to the issue of dogs feeling safe.

(29:42):
when we infantilize our dogs and say our dogs are like two year olds, we then don't.
Jump to recognizing that what dogs need is agency.
I know we're gonna talk about this later, but to just to as a teaser, to throw that word in there.
And the reason dogs don't feel safe emotionally is because they have no control over their environment.

(30:07):
They have no agency.
And we need to not treat them like toddlers, we need to treat them like adults.
let them have some say over the contours of their life.
one of the things that I often come back to in my writing and when I talk about dogs and human dog relationships is that dogs are captive animals in an important respect.

(30:28):
That is to say, dogs who live as pets, and that's only 20% of the dogs on the planet.
Most dogs on the planet don't live under conditions of intensive captivity or what I have started to call confinement regimes.
pet dogs live under such profound, confinement regimes that it really affects their emotional lives.

(30:52):
if you look at the human literature on, solitary confinement and the psychological effects of imprisonment and captivity on humans, it's all the stuff you would expect to see.
just learned helplessness and hopelessness and depression and shutting down and, aggressive outbursts so recognizing that, from the very start, our dogs are struggling.

(31:17):
It's a challenge for a dog to be, a companion to a human in a home.
rather than expecting dogs to meet us 80% of the way, we do the training.
They do all the work to become what we want them to be.
Instead, it needs to at least be 50 50.
If not, more.
We need to meet them halfway.

(31:39):
Let them be dogs.
Let them be who they wanna be, who they are.
Let them express their emotions, even if those are negative emotions and have a partnership, A, a boss.
I agree with that so much.
I always say we're on the same team.

(31:59):
It's not.
Sorry.
I get very passionate about this and I'm sorry if I You're in the right we're, I would love to add to that, if that's okay.
Dogs as captives and not having agency choice and not being able to give consent.
Like what gives people the license to just go run up and touch a dog.

(32:24):
We don't do that with other people.
Like some people I know you'd get arrested if you did that to somebody's child.
Yeah.
we take these liberties, these unfair liberties, but one of the reasons that we do, from what I understand is because we have bred bid ability.
Into dogs.

(32:45):
We have artificially selected four dogs that are so bonded to us.
And we can talk about Stockholm syndrome.
we can take that in a lot of different directions about why it is that even when abused dogs will continue to have this domestic violence relationship with their abuser.

(33:08):
But, they're captives, as you said, Jessica.
where are they gonna go? They literally, there's no domestic abuse hotline, like you were talking about cognitive functions and our ability to understand our emotions and think our way into a different response, it's much more basic with them.
Yes.
we have put them in this predicament and it's our responsibility.

(33:32):
It is the humans.
Responsibility to learn about these animals, to learn about their body language.
What are they saying? They're talking to us all the time, all day long.
Absolutely.
Trying to tell us how they feel.
they're also honest about their feelings.
They wear their feelings on their sleeves, so to speak.

(33:54):
it's not that hard to learn.
Emily's laughing at me 'cause I'm giving you a virtual high 10.
I think also building on that, the process of socialization that we undergo when we get a puppy is to make them completely emotionally attached to and dependent on us.
That's what a good dog is.

(34:16):
and we like that.
Like the more attached and dependent they are, the better.
That's not healthy for a dog, because that makes us, as you were pointing out, Linda, totally vulnerable and isolation, separation stress.
to punish a dog, we withhold affection.
Like how cruel is that? you make a dog be attached to you and feel affection and then say, no, I'm gonna turn that off now.

(34:40):
That is because you didn't meet my expectations.
with Associates of learning and everything that happens in the dog environment, basing on what you've just said now, and what Linda said earlier about the lead restricting the dog's ability to engage or disengage from a perceived threat.
So the perceived threat is from their perspective, right? Real or imagined.
And even with you saying denied affection, how can a dog understand or associate what it is that they've done wrong? for example with the lead, the dog is afraid of something in the distance.

(35:14):
You've not noticed it, Their amygdala is going, oh, scary, and the dog responds accordingly, that is part of their sympathetic, part of their nervous system.
All involuntary responses.
The dog is not thinking, there's no logical thought.
The dog is just responding to how they feel with whatever they have seen or heard.
Let's say they pull away and you jerk the lead.

(35:34):
What is the dog learning? I'm going to either, learn helplessness, reactive, or avoidance behaviors because I need to survive in this instance, but the lead restricts my ability to disengage from this perceived threat.
I dunno what to do.
And then the behaviors just amplify.
Or they go to the point where the dog's just no, the best chance of survival is like a deer in the headlights.
I'm just gonna freeze and be still and not move.

(35:55):
And then with regarding your point, Jessica, with denying that affection, that will in my opinion, the dog will not connect your response to their behavior over something so complex.
My dog toilet's in the house because they're upset with me because I left them, so I'm not going to talk to them for a little bit.

(36:20):
But what may have happened previously is that the dog has learned the behavior of toileting in front of you is what makes you upset or you become unsafe and unpredictable.
So the dog is incredibly conflicted.
now the dog will go and hide where you can't see them.
To eliminate.
But then you go outside and they go I've been outside.
This dog still is not toileting, but because that associative learning happened prior, you are unsafe to do this in front of.

(36:45):
Now I come back, now you've toileted in the house.
Now you know you're upset with me.
I'm upset with you.
And the dog's going, I don't know what you want.
Which is a perfect segue into saying one of the most, and this is about dogs, but it's really about human emotions.
Yes.
'cause it's our human emotional responses to our dog are so complex too.

(37:10):
And often, I mean in your example, our dogs, and I think it's important to recognize this, our dogs make us angry.
They make us frustrated and impatient Understanding where that's coming from for us when we have that kind of emotional reaction to something our dog is doing take a pause, a strategic pause, think about why, take a breath so that you can manage the emotion.

(37:39):
for me and my dog, Bella, it's barking.
she doesn't bark frequently, which I'm glad of.
she does have some barking patterns, like when she's really excited, we're about to go out for walk.
She goes for walks in her stroller because she's.
Quite disabled.
she loves her walks and her stroller, and she and barks when we're on the way out and it's grading.

(38:02):
And it makes scrambles your brain, makes my blood pressure.
And, but it's not, she's excited.
So I just take a pause and say, take a breath, be a Buddhist and notice the emotion but try not to get too stuck in it.
especially with training, it's about getting our dog to do what we want.

(38:23):
And when they don't, there's a lot of room for getting.
Frustrated and angry and often a dog is just trying to, dogs are trying to please us.
They're trying to work with us as best they can.
We're really hard to understand.
We don't communicate very clearly.
We often are really ambivalent.
We might be communicating one thing with our hand and another thing with our mouth.

(38:45):
And a third thing with our face and a fourth thing with our voice, but the language.
My dog is like, what the heck? What am I supposed to do? and inconsistencies between family members But I just wanna go back to what we were talking about with regards to being, a partner, a teammate with them we are on the same side as them because we want to read between the lines and tune into their body language, their energy, any subtle shift.

(39:13):
So that we can recognize when they're nearing their thresholds and make sure we're stepping in before that reaction happens or whatever it is that is, going to tip them over.
We want to make sure that we're protecting their emotional safety and minimizing going over threshold.

(39:33):
And what we are not going to be doing is asking them to push through any fears that they're feeling We don't want to force them into a situation to.
Face their fears, so to speak.
But we also want to make sure that we are always offering choices and what we were saying about agency and autonomy with safe boundaries, obviously they are living in a human world and there are cars that go fast and things that we have to make sure that we are protecting them, but having predictable environments where there are even small choices over whether or not to interact.

(40:13):
So that is their choice.
Yes, that's not forced on them.
And making sure that they've got natural outlets, so that they're able to be themselves without fear of being, squished, their emotional.
Squish.
Yes.
because that choice is really going to be empowering for them and knowing that they were able to make a choice and you supported their choice and you heard them and you listened to them.

(40:41):
and that should be able to say no.
absolutely.
And we should respect their decision to say no.
And even to opt out of training, if a dog doesn't wanna do it, don't.
There are some things in dog training that are task oriented and that there's really no purpose for the dog to learn and often not really for the human.

(41:05):
It's ego grounded, some trainer told you, you gotta teach these behaviors.
Joe touched on, enrichment in allowing dogs to perform natural gen, genetically natural behaviors, scavenging, sniff, let them decide where to go on a walk.
Why not? You know what Emily touched on about what happens when the dog barks and lunges, out of a perceived threat, and then we yank on the leash because the dog is, telling us that they feel threatened and then we punish them.

(41:43):
We punish them for behaving in a way that protects their physical and emotional safety.
Yeah.
someone in my group recently said, a balanced trainer will say to a dog, I'm going to punish you and it's your fault that I'm gonna punish you.
And that's the place that, with all this confusion that we're creating, absolutely.

(42:10):
It's their fault.
No, it's not.
where does this come from? And we really need to take responsibility to stop this animal abuse, masquerading as dog training.
I try to bridge that gap between research trainers and pet parents.
Just one example I wanted to give very briefly was another case that came to mind, where a dog was doing something adaptive to survival.

(42:38):
It was afraid of the man of the house, probably by association, fear conditioning from a previous man of the house.
the mom called me and she was just distraught.
She said, Layla, every time she sees my husband, she just, she brawls at him and she runs outside.

(42:58):
and, we rescued her and we don't know what to do.
And I ended up, she had the same reaction to me, a stranger coming into the home.
so I ended up, lying flat on the floor, on my stomach with my hands out with high value food.
after, assessing that she would like food and to give her a chance in her own space and time to get near enough to me to take the food.

(43:28):
And then I could transfer that to the pet dad and, a couple weeks later get a call.
Oh, they're just so in love and, nothing beats that feeling when, you just take the time to listen first, to learn a little bit about how to take baby steps and desensitize and go slow and then go slower.

(43:51):
It's like magic can happen.
And I think also, encouraging people who live with dogs to learn as much as they can about, What it's like to be a dog canine senses, how dogs experience the world? how do their noses work? Dogs are much more, olfactory oriented than we are, we see the world through our eyes and they see the world through their noses.

(44:15):
which is why it's important to let them sniff when they're sniffing on a walk rather than getting annoyed my dog is lollygagging again to say, oh, my dog is ex is interacting with the world and reading the sidewalk, or whatever it is.
and that, when, whenever there's a behavior that might be annoying or problematic trying to, I guess put that in the context of natural canine behaviors.

(44:44):
We've had that phrase come up a few times.
and, understanding that may be something that dogs need to do, like to do, naturally do.
Yeah.
And coming back to the example of Barking, which I used before.
I think many people in many training programs seem like they wanna just stop dogs from barking ever.

(45:08):
But barking is something that, that's how dogs are communicating Yep.
And so when people are going back to human emotional responses to dogs, what I encourage people to do, if their dog is barking and it's annoying, maybe hi making their blood pressure, go up to step back and become curious about it.

(45:29):
And this is where we might throw in the phrase Ethe Graham, make an ethe Graham of dog barking, or your dog barking in particular.
'cause every dog's barking is unique.
how many different barks can you hear your dog making? 15.
and what are they trying to say to you or to another dog or another creature altogether with those barks? If you get curious about them and observant of them, you can address them so much better and more able to, collaborate with your dog on a solution that works for both of you.

(46:08):
And maybe the neighbors.
we are coming to the end of our time already.
I know this is something that we could, I know.
I could maybe stretch it outta it.
15 more minutes please.
if we just go round the virtual table, maybe just share one simple thing that a listener could do this week to start to support their dog emotionally.

(46:37):
Emily, do you wanna start? So it's that definitely Jessica, what you were saying, and Linda as well.
It's that understanding that emotion, what the dog is communicating, not just to you, but to themselves or anything around them, whether it's pulling on the lead or barking, it depends on the intensity and the level of the dog's behavioral response, if the dog is.

(47:01):
Hiding or we've got excessive barking.
The dog is in a distressed state, right? Either way, the dog needs to come outta the situation.
So because stress inhibits learning, not one individual can retain information when they're stressed because of cortisol levels.
So if the dog is distressed, first and foremost, that to me is emergency management.
Take your dog outta the situation.

(47:23):
Help them feel safe.
Safe, reduces the cortisol, increases dopamine and serotonin, and the bonding of oxytocin as well.
Once you've done that, you can identify the problem you have as a quick solution until you find the appropriate person to help you with these struggles.
There is a beautiful force, fear Free, happy Homes.

(47:45):
I'll give you, you probably already know it, Joe.
It is a video on body language and communication that Fear Free Happy Homes has made.
a cartoon, it's someone's done sketches and actual footage of dog's, body language, and it's for the whole family.
It is so easy to learn and understand because if you can identify the body language, you can identify, my dog is not coping.

(48:08):
We need to get out of here.
when you go out, you see that the dog is not happy Cross the road until you find that help.
If the dog is barking, go, Thanks for letting me know.
manage the environment.
Close the door to prevent them from rehearsing the behavior.
Redirect them with enrichment.
You're not reinforcing the bark.
The bark has already been and gone.
You're taking, you are using emergency management to take the dog outta the situation that's causing them distress.

(48:32):
Then you worry about the rest later.
Well done.
Yeah, I popped the link in the, oh, thank you.
In the.
I can't even think of the word.
My mind is so oh my goodness.
I want comments.
Comments.
Thank you.
Linda, what would you say one thing that anyone listening might be able to start implementing this week? Something really easy.

(48:56):
I would say to observe your dog very closely when you walk in the house and notice what your dog looks like when you put down a high value food bowl.
Look at that body language and if you see anything other than that or completely neutral, something's probably wrong.

(49:21):
Yes, as Emily said, avoiding creating distance, not putting our dogs into flooding situations where they're gonna go over thresholds, but I'm not gonna keep, talking for too long.
But, on the other side, ask what the problem, behavior, problem, behavior to us, what is the dog trying to tell you with that behavior? Whether it's barking, whether it's urinating, and, example, that Emily gave about, where should I pee? Where is it okay to pee? And just a quick nuts and bolts tip.

(49:56):
One of my all time favorite things I discovered about house training was after doing a thorough cleanup with a bio enzymatic cleaner and a black light.
If you lay down food and do scattering over what was a toilet and turn it into a dinner table, you can have Some amazing success with house training.

(50:19):
it can work for marking as well.
So anyway, on that nuts and bolts of, basic training.
So yeah, just didn't recognize what's happy and what's not happy.
Brilliant.
It's because life can feel hard.
I'm gonna focus on joy, love it, and dog joy.
my challenge would be.

(50:41):
Make a first, make a joy journal for your dog and write down the things that you already know or think, bring your dog joy.
it might be a really exuberant kind of joy, like just running all out at the dog park Or it could be a quiet joy like laying on the porch and sniffing, what's happening.

(51:09):
you know it when you see it, make the joy list and make sure that your dog gets at least one good joy session a week, maybe even a day.
But let's just go with a week to make it not too oppressive.
see if you can add things to the list.
Love that.

(51:30):
We said that at the same time, and it makes us happy too.
if I'm feeling down, I just go stand outside the dog park and watch the dogs play they're joyful and it makes me feel better instantly.
Yeah.
And that's the point, right? We all seek out things that bring us joy.
Give your dog that option to Yeah.

(51:52):
Absolutely.
I think mine would be to get a post-it note or a piece of paper and stick it somewhere with how can I give my dog more choice? just think about that every time.
Yeah.
Every time you walk past that post-it note so all the family members or anyone in the household can see it.
How can I give my dog more choice? So then you can start shifting your thinking away from any behavior that the dog may be displaying that isn't, What you'd like to, how can you give it other options? could you redirect that behavior onto something else? Could you use distraction? Could you maybe consider giving them more choice over what toys they have available? What walking route, like Linda said, a sniff, where they want to go, how can you give them more choice? And then just every time you walk past it, just think on that.

(52:49):
Oh, love that.
So we are already over time and I know we could talk all night or day, wherever you are.
I think I can speak on behalf of both of us when I say a massive thank you to Jess.
Thank you so much for your time and joining us.
this has been so good.

(53:09):
Thank you so much.
We've so planned girling, haven't we? But we are super grateful, to you both for joining.
next episode, next week we have the wonderful Stephanie Zigman joining us.
Linda actually introduced me to Stephanie, so I'm super grateful to Linda for the introduction.

(53:35):
Thank you, Linda.
Stephanie is known as the holistic dog groomer.
when we're talking about choice and shutdown on the grooming table not listening to the emotions.
Stephanie is the one to give us more insight into that.
She's a real thought leader in animal welfare and she combines her traditional experience in grooming with holistic wellness practices she is the director of the Holistic Grooming Academy That is amazing.

(54:04):
Super excited for next week's episode.
If you've joined us live and you've enjoyed this, or if you are listening on replay, please do share with whoever is in your network, the share button and let other people know we're here.
We would love for you to hit the subscribe button as well.

(54:26):
we will look forward to seeing you same time next week.
Thanks a lot from all of us.
bye.
Thank you for listening to the Dog Expert Podcast, the podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
If you've enjoyed this episode, do come and let us know in our free Facebook group for dog lovers Everywhere Ethical Dog Training with canine principles.

(54:50):
That way we can make more content like this that you'll love.
We would love for you to leave a review on here and hit subscribe so that you never miss an episode.
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