May 8, 2025 • 67 mins
For many dogs, grooming is more than uncomfortable — it’s downright terrifying. In this episode of The Dog Expert Podcast, we’re joined by author and ethical groomer Sue Williamson to explore why so many dogs dread the groomer… and what we can do about it.
Sue shares powerful insights into the emotional triggers dogs face during grooming, the harm of outdated industry practices, and how her welfare-led approach helps dogs not just cope, but feel safe.
Whether your dog panics at the sight of a brush or you’re looking for a groomer who puts emotional wellbeing first, this episode is packed with practical guidance, compassion, and hope.
What we cover:
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Why grooming is emotionally challenging for so many dogs
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The silent stressors of traditional grooming environments
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How cooperative, consent-based care can change everything
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Tips to reduce grooming anxiety at home and in the salon
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What to look for in a trauma-informed groomer
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to the Dog Expert Podcast.
The podcast dogs would want you to listen to, powered by canine principles.com.
Helping passionate dog people go from feeling unsure and overwhelmed to confident, compassionate, and science savvy through a rich library of online courses and formal qualifications.
(00:25):
Each week on the podcast, we dive deep into the real, raw and rewarding world of dogs.
This isn't about obedience, this is about understanding, because dogs aren't problems to solve.
They're free thinking, sentient beings to connect with.
(00:45):
Hello.
Good evening.
We're back.
So last week I was so excited about our guest speakers that I forgot to introduce us.
That's alright.
So I'm gonna start with that this week.
My name's Jamie Ton and I am the head of studies at Canine Principals, the principal of the International School for Canine Psychology.
(01:11):
I head up the Institute for the International Institute for Canine Ethics.
Basically I'm a dog geek and I'm very passionate about cognitive led rehab.
Emily, do you wanna introduce yourself? Hi everyone.
My name is Emily Dustin.
(01:31):
I own and run Sea Spot Learn here in New Zealand.
I am a behaviorist and dog trainer.
I also specialize in puppyhood development theory, activity and separation and isolation distress.
I run a grooming salon where it is reward based methods and encouraging or working on dog's confidence when it comes to handling.
(01:55):
And yeah, that's me.
This week we are talking about something that is right up your street, We are talking about help.
My dog hates the groomers.
It's such a common problem that so many people experience.
And they don't realize the impact.
Later on, if they don't handle their dogs or from puppy hood, get them used to that, touch that exposure.
(02:21):
it's such a different approach from the dog's perspective, when they come to you, you touch their head, scratch their ear, give them little tickle under the chin, and then now you're going up to them invading their space, holding them, brushing them, grabbing their foot, trying to clip a nail.
And that can be very overwhelming and scary from the dog's perspective.
(02:42):
Absolutely.
we see it a lot in rescues and it's not just uncomfortable.
It's absolutely terrifying when a dog who has experienced trauma is taken against their will to another place that they're not familiar with.
they are.
Forced to be handled by a complete stranger.
(03:06):
They have no choice about whether or not they consent to this and they're strung up by their necks on a table forced to have a hair dryer on them after they've been manhandled or woman handled.
So what we're really going to be looking at this evening is why grooming is.
(03:29):
Emotionally challenging for so many dogs, the kind of silent stresses of traditional grooming environments.
How cooperative consent based care can really change everything.
And also maybe some tips around grooming anxiety.
Now we might be joined by a wonderful lady called Sue.
(03:52):
In fact, I believe she is right here right now.
I'm gonna add Sue to the stage.
Hello, Sue.
Welcome Sue.
Hi, I think you look fabulous.
Can you hear me okay? Loud and clear.
So you've just literally had a dog in the salon, haven't you? Can you hear us? Oh, Sue's frozen.
(04:15):
She'll come back.
I've got all three dogs of my own and they've all come in with me because my husband's out.
I let them all in with me.
That's where I've got the headset on.
So if the bark, you won't see them, you might see a face now and again.
Anyone listening to the podcast, if you go onto YouTube and watch the episode, you'll see one of Sue's dogs casually walking past the camera right then.
(04:41):
Sue, tell us more about you, and for anyone who's not familiar, you are Sue Williamson, tell us all about you and why you're passionate about this.
Oh, she's frozen again.
Sue's gone.
Oh, no.
Oh, dear Sue Signal dear, keeps going, dear while Sue, sorts her signal out.
(05:02):
We'll see if we can get her back on in a minute.
do you want to kick off about why grooming is emotionally challenging for so many dogs? Oh, absolutely.
As I mentioned earlier, it's from the dog's perspective, This entails a whole concoction of emotion because it's one thing to have your dog approach you and you're touching them, giving them that scratch.
(05:26):
And then there's that other thing where you are approaching them and they might not understand what your intentions are.
They might, avoid what it is that you're doing, and then that leads you to then grab them and pull them close to you, which then works on more fear emotional responses.
When it comes to grooming and the approach, usually one of the best things to do is go really slow.
(05:51):
Help the dog feel safe.
The moment the dog feels safe, you have a more willing participant in handling and interacting with them.
Exposure is probably the foundation and the most important part, I like to use lick mats to start.
chewing or licking increases endorphins from the hypothalamus in the pituitary gland.
So it's a natural way to help the dog feel good while creating positive associations at the same time.
(06:17):
if it's something we go, oh, we need to get you brushed.
We need to start brushing you.
And this would vary, right? Either from a puppy who's never had this done before, an older dog who maybe has it once in a while, but it's not consistent enough for the dog to get used to it.
Or a new rescue dog where you have no background or history on this dog.
And that slow part is so important.
(06:39):
it's Hand movements going closer and going back.
even looking now at the camera from the dog's perspective, if I'm like, oh, hi, let's just touch you, that can be really overwhelming and cause a bit of a freeze or flight response.
So it's that hand movement goes up or towards toss, a treat away from you, dog comes back going, oh, that was quite nice.
(07:00):
Still not paired the hand movement yet, but with repetition.
Every time you move the hand in the directions of the dog, you toss a treat, they go, oh, I like it when your hand moves, I get treats.
Your hands are predictable and safe and building it up from there.
So what we're ultimately looking for is that emotionally supportive, really low stress welfare, first approach to grooming.
(07:26):
if someone watching or listening wanted to choose a groomer for a first time, or they wanted to change their groomers to make sure that the groomer they were using is taking an approach that is dog centric in this way, what sort of questions should they be asking? questions would be, how many dogs do you groom in your salon a day? How many staff members are there? Is my dog on the table? Are they restrained? my dog's a little bit nervous.
(08:01):
And sometimes can growl What would you do to help them? Someone's answers are a good indication of their methods they may say, if they growl, or they're not feeling confident, we just see what we can do with them.
We might not even get them on the table.
We might just toss 'em, treats, play, see how they interact.
(08:22):
So more of an observation session.
If you have a response that goes, oh, they'll be fine.
You'll see.
We'll just take them and they'll just be all right.
But there's no actual answer to your question.
That would be a red flag for me.
I would also say, do you use treats? what restraints do you use on the table? do you muzzle dogs? How do you handle a situation if the dog's nails don't want to be clipped? one of those things is there's so many posts and pictures out there and a lot of grooming salons have those, braces where they put the dog's legs in that string them up.
(09:00):
So the dog is completely out of options.
I think I saw, it was a couple of weeks ago, I had to flick through it really quickly because my emotions just went on fire.
they thought it was funny that the dog was wriggling in this harness string.
That holds them up and the dog is wriggling and the body is just trying to escape and they're laughing going, ah, ha.
(09:22):
What a silly dog holding the foot, which can also physically hurt can pull the ligaments out, do so much physical damage, never alone the emotional distress that the dog is going through.
And then they're trying to clip their nails.
So the questions to ask isn't just based on, what is their salon like, how many members or staff members, or how many dogs in a day? It's handling skills.
(09:45):
What do you do if the dog does this? How would you approach it? Do you give me information if my dog is not coping? And can you give me a program to work at home? Brilliant.
If you are watching, whether you are live, whether you are watching a playback, please do comment and let us know.
(10:06):
how your experiences have been with groomers and whether you know of any ones that have taken an approach similar.
And also share this far and wide please, because we need to spread the word, the education piece around it not being funny, a dog being put in a basket, almost type mesh mechanism, and having no autonomy at all and no control, no choice.
(10:35):
It is as a captive, it is really, emotionally damaging and traumatic for that dog and the behavior, knock on effect in other areas.
It's not feeling safe emotionally in any regard at that point.
Amazing.
Sue, I'm in awe.
the books that you've written, and there are several around this topic.
(10:58):
Yeah.
Taking the guru outta Grooming, for example.
So Good.
Can you tell people a bit more about you and why you feel passionately about spreading the word about more ethical grooming practices? Oh, it's just one of those things.
It just makes so much sense to me.
when I started, training to be a dog groomer, I was already through my talent and TTouch, training.
(11:21):
we learned a lot about trust, watching dogs', body language, giving dogs choices very much in TTouch.
So I'd already got those basics when I started dog grooming.
And then I went into my training salon and it was quite a shock.
I'd never seen a dog groom beginning to end before, and then all of a sudden I was in the salon and these dogs were, to be fair, most of 'em were not too bad.
(11:50):
But, we were getting German shepherds coming in panton and the big dogs to be handling when they're stressed.
And then we'd have little shihtzu that were my complete nemesis in training.
I think that's the only time I got fitting training was by a shit suit that I was trying to buy.
And then I, once I finished my groom training, I opened my own salon and it just sort things kept happening.
(12:20):
The I'd suddenly change How i's grooming dogs? So for example, I had, labradoodle, I used to groom, and I'd put her on the table, have the safety aids on and she'd be up high and I'd be standing.
she wasn't a fan of being groomed.
And I must admit I deduce the safety aids or safety restraints to start with.
'cause I was inexperienced and she really struggled.
(12:45):
And the next time she came into me, she just laid down on the floor.
Refused to get on the table.
She was not getting on that table.
She was a big dog.
so I just thought, I'm gonna sit next to you and see what I can do.
And I managed to do a full clip off with her laying on the floor Amazing.
And I thought, obviously this is more comfortable for her than standing high upon a table.
(13:08):
So the next time she came in, I actually put my table down low 'cause it was a little bit uncomfortable sitting on the floor.
The next time, when I got the table low, she laid down on the table.
So that was how I grew her from then on a low table.
And that got me into grooming more dogs on a low table.
because I got a low table, I didn't need the safety restraints.
(13:30):
It just kept developing.
each dog I groomed taught me something else, or taught me another technique or made me think outside the box to use a different technique.
it just became second nature to think about how I could adapt each groom to suit individual dog.
And that I love that.
It was just before covid.
After I qualified as a te touch practitioner, it meant I could do one day workshops.
(13:56):
I decided to focus on grooming because I used te touch in the grooming salons without relax the dogs.
And I started doing the workshops for groomers, and I was stunned at the lack of canine knowledge.
You talk about farming signals and you just get these blank faces, trigger stacking just blew.
(14:17):
I started writing lots of notes to go alongside the training course, and I said to one of my friends in passing one day, I've got lovely way to write a book now.
She says you write it then and I'll edit it.
I'll publish it.
And that's what we did.
That's what really started it all off to get the word out there.
And that was the Cardinal's version.
(14:39):
Then they did the groomers version, and it's really all snowballed from there.
none of this was pre-planned it, it's just develops organically.
Really.
it just happens.
And, born from a passion to see a difference and make a difference for the benefit of dogs everywhere.
Yeah.
I wonder so.
(15:01):
You say about, obviously education is my jam and I'm very passionate about education and I think education holds the key to, if we're open to learning and I believe we never stop learning.
We're always learning more in each dog teaches us something different.
Do you see a future where dog behavior, even just the basic body language and, calming signals, being included as a requirement for groomers at some point I would love to think so.
(15:36):
hopefully I've started to sew the seeds that it will be included in trading and, hopefully interest as well.
Stephanie, and we were, we did an hold a webinar together a few weeks ago for rumors, trying to, little bit to pay more attention to body language and have a more dog led approach.
(15:59):
We have a good amount of groomers watching us.
That's a lot of them were already doing, but we are gonna keep working together, put forward, and trying all groomers to pay attention to language.
For some of it is so mind little tiniest twitch in the body can tell you so much.
(16:20):
Absolutely.
a lot of groomers think that.
Body language is just the dog growling whereas If you just pay a little bit of, oh, your audio's cutting out a bit there, Sue, sorry, your mic.
I don't need your mic there.
So can body language.
(16:41):
the tiniest change in body language can make such a, it's communication ultimately their behavior, their body language.
But if we don't learn to listen and read their communication, then it's going to get missed.
And for me, with cognitive led rehab being my kind of, passion it's all about choice and the more traditional grooming.
(17:10):
Methods to me offer the dog no choice.
Yeah.
It's got to be done.
they've got to fill up with it 'cause it's got to be done.
And it doesn't have to be that way, it's a little bit harder for me because the only dogs I do are dogs that have been referred to me because they've been banned from other salons.
Or would be referred to me because they can't cope in a normal salon environment.
(17:34):
So I don't get to groom dogs that are quite happy being groomed.
So I see more sensitive dogs, And I know not every dog's like that.
So a lot of dogs, particularly if they've been bought into the, the grooming salon using a dog led approach, a lot of dogs can be quite happy being groomed or relaxed, being groomed, but Lots are not.
(17:56):
some of the videos that have been shared, I was listening to Emily talking about the dog in the hammock.
Sorry, my brain.
It's just No, it's awful.
Isn't what you can't think of.
They're called hammer, called calming cradle.
Named is a calming cradle.
it's not the tool itself that's the problem.
It's how it's used.
There can be times when a calming cradle, if say for example, if a dog's got an injury, so can't support the body whilst rubbing the claw.
(18:26):
If you have the dog so it can rest, it's pause, touch the table.
'cause they're not supposed to be walking the middle of the air.
Yes.
They're supposed to be able to touch the table so they can support some dogs that have got injuries or getting old.
Just while I've had the clothes done and the paws done, but the feet will on the table, you must be watching the body language the whole time and that's what's missing.
(18:49):
I think also the main thing is instead of having the approach of just slapping it on and getting on with it, it's that gradual desensitization exposure to the hammock, right? Yeah.
So putting it on the floor, letting the dog sniff it, tossing a treat, a lot of methods that I use, not even just in training in other areas, to focus on this topic is a treat and retreat method.
(19:11):
If you go near it, good things happen.
And I give you the opportunity to escape.
then I can see if the dog chooses to engage or disengage from me.
when it comes to table work, one of the main things that I really try to encourage is got one of those electronic tables that go all the way down.
I'll start with a little bit of a lure, the dog looks at the table and I go, great.
(19:33):
I toss the treats away and I make it a game because games is the best.
'cause that's your motivation, right? Yeah.
And positive associations.
every time the dog gets closer to the table, I'll treat near the table, then I'll toss the treat the opposite direction.
And then you have more.
Of a confident behavior of a dog approaching the table.
Now I don't have to pick you up and put you on anymore 'cause it's a double-edged sword.
(19:55):
One I'm picking up multiple dogs is very physically exhausting.
So I'd rather teach you to want to go on the table to save my back, but I'm also creating a positive association at the Same time.
Yeah.
As a groomer.
I do exactly the same.
And it was really useful for me last year because, I have my table quite low, but I also have a set of caravan steps I've covered with carpet.
(20:20):
So I teach the dogs to get on and off the table themselves.
So I use table protocol a lot.
So off the table means you're gonna get groomed off the table means grooming stops.
And last year, the beginning of last year, I had a full knee replacement and I was about working within six weeks because.
The dogs do all the work for me.
(20:42):
If I'd had to wait until I could carry dogs around the salon, it would've been at least another two or three months.
But because I sit to groom and don't do any physical lifting, I could go back to work at six weeks.
It's just common sense to me, The least resistant path So you took it on yourself to further your education, about TTouch I think we've actually met at Tilly Farm Sue many years ago.
(21:07):
probably 10 years now, Many years ago I used to work with a charity.
We used to bring our kennel dogs down for the Practitioners to practice on.
I think we met then, and then I went on and did some of the, six day, t touch courses.
And I'm sure our paths have crossed before.
I'm sure it must have done, I used go down quite a lot.
(21:30):
Oh, it's a small world, isn't it? But you took it on yourself to educate yourself around all things dog, basically.
you've done some of the ISCP courses I believe every ethical dog professional should continue learning about dogs.
not only do we never stop learning, but there's always new stuff coming out and different findings and other ways that you spark your brain.
(21:56):
The other thing that I, firmly believe is that our brains will only absorb the information that is relevant to us at that time.
So you could hear the same information three different times over three years, and your brain will pick out the different things to absorb from that information at that time.
(22:16):
Even though you may, have covered some stuff during your grooming course, although it does sound like there isn't enough behavior work integrated into the grooming world at the moment, when you then study it again and hear that information again, it'll hit differently because you are not focused on the grooming, you're focused on the behavior of the dog.
(22:41):
to put a practical image in people's minds, do either of you or both of you have a case study that you could think of, or a favorite client Do you wanna go first, Sam? Yeah, sure.
one of the.
Oh, there's so many.
I know this is the third week and when I get asked a question, I'm like, I have so many that I could say, but let's go with one.
(23:04):
Is this your favorite subject too? Because you say that every week.
Every week.
I think when we picked out, when we've worked through all of our topics I was like, oh, this one's great.
Yes, this one's great.
Oh, I can't wait for this one.
So they're all gonna be my favorite.
So get ready for every week.
Me saying they are my favorite.
That's my favorite week.
So the one that I'll talk about is a wheatie named Bean or Beanie.
(23:29):
they moved up to Auckland from the South island and maybe now have, I want to say going on two years.
she came to me last year as a referral from another lovely groomer She was so hypersensitive and fearful she didn't show aggressive responses but there was a lot of avoidance and hyper activity.
(23:54):
But we're talking about excessive hyperactivity, right? So all she tried to do was diffusing, calming and avoidance.
And what I started with was just the basic floor work and the treats retreat.
And then it was on the table, off the table, on the table, off the table at a very low setting.
(24:14):
And then it was every tiny thing she needed to get used to before I even started.
And this took multiple sessions.
Sue, I'm sure you can understand that, running a salon, this is what I need to do for the dog.
But it also takes my time.
the client has to be a willing participant, and that is the big juggling act because the unrealistic expectations of that magic wand is very difficult to discuss because this dog was not coping.
(24:46):
This dog is struggling with being handled.
She had numerous bad experiences from previous groomers, so she's got a learned history of negative associations.
thankfully these owners were the most phenomenal people because they were like, it is okay, take your time.
(25:06):
Do what needs to be done.
We don't need her fully groomed just yet.
And I went, thank you for understanding because it is so hard.
Because they go I just want my dog groomed.
The general, not everybody, but generally I just want my dog groomed, don't care, just want them groomed because I can't brush their hair anymore and the dog wants to bite me.
And it took two, I think to start with, started 15 and thankfully they also lived down the road, which made it easier.
(25:34):
Three 15 minute sessions.
The first week, the second week was three 20 minute sessions.
And all this is, was that cooperative.
If you make that choice, that's great.
Good things happen.
If you don't want to do it, nothing happens.
whenever you do those things, the best things happen.
that would be going on the table, holding a position on the table, getting used to my hand movements, going close, going away, treat doing that treat.
(26:02):
every time I touched or interacted with her, good things happened.
Then it was the brush.
And so forth.
And I think the hardest part for her was the sound of the clipper, because the clipper vibrates.
So it's that sensation on the body while you're moving, especially when you put the clipper behind.
Remember for the dog, the clipper comes from behind so they hear auditory from different angles, and they can't see it.
(26:26):
So it's creating that sound association when they can't see it, which was also important.
this was gradual over several weeks to months, and now.
Probably a year in grooming Beanie.
She runs in, I have a predictable pattern with her, so she knows what to expect when she's on the table.
(26:49):
I start and she will have a signal where she goes, I've had enough.
So I stop and she jumps off and I wait.
And then when she's ready, she jumps back on again and presents herself and I go, great, we can carry on.
But that whole session, even with the retreats and treats and retreat method and creating positive associations in between breaks, I gave her enrichment.
(27:11):
She had lick maps puzzles, so it's that dopamine, positive endorphins, everything to make her feel better.
she didn't like it, but she learned to tolerate it and cope with it in a more positive way.
it takes time, but it's, to me, just the best approach.
That emotional safety is the underpinning factor, isn't it? Absolutely.
(27:33):
That I am safe.
I'm okay, and I've got choices.
And you are safe.
You are also safe.
Even though you're being weird and you've got weird extensions to your arms that vibrate against my skin.
You're okay? Yeah.
You're all right.
I'll tolerate this, but I feel safe with you, so it's okay.
(27:54):
Oh, I was just gonna ask if you had any case studies or, an example of one that stuck out in your head.
I think one of my favorites is a little, west Island Terrier, called Eddie.
He's just the most loveliest dog, but the first time he came to my salon, he just stood and barked at me the whole time.
(28:15):
I use animal centered education free work for the first session, so I'll put different surfaces on the floor with different foods on them, and I don't even try and engage with 'em on that first session, especially bearing in mind that the dogs eye get.
Have been referred to me, or the Guardian has come to me for my specialist services.
(28:38):
They know I'm not gonna groom that dog until it's ready to be groomed.
So I don't have that pressure applied to me.
Little Eddie, he came and after four or five sessions it was getting on and off the table and I was able to do a bit of grooming, but.
after just 10 minutes, he'd lose focus and couldn't reengage, so couldn't get back on the table, find lots of stuff to do, his displacement, and then he wouldn't have his harness put back on because that was a bone of contention with him as well.
(29:13):
And they'd got, they'd work this, there's a, these guardians are absolutely amazing.
They've got this protocol how they get this harness on, but you just want to engage with that.
So I knew we struggled having this harness put on and I knew we struggled in the car and it was about half an hour car journey for them.
So I said, look, let me come to your house.
(29:34):
So it Oh, that's nice.
Eliminates the need for the harness.
It eliminates the need for the car journey.
When I got there, they'd taught him that the place to be groomed was that they got four steps from their kitchen into their hallway.
And sitting on the top of the steps was this place to be groomed.
(29:55):
So we knew that protocol already.
And the second time I went to groom him there, they'd bought a little table, adjustable table.
It's not a proper grooming table, but it's adjustable table with a piece of carton.
And they've been out and bought a set of caravan steps the same as mine.
And they taught him table protocol, which was amazing.
(30:18):
And now he gets on and off the table.
rather than having 10 minutes to groom him, now I get three quarters of an hour where he can fully engage.
that's long enough for me to clip him off.
Sometimes he will let me scissor around his feet and his face.
Sometimes he won't, but that's fine.
We just do what we can.
(30:38):
It's just working out what works for that particular dog.
There's no fixed approach, which I think it, I think that's part of the problem of traditional standard grooming because you start at one end of the body, move forward, or start as a set procedure And that really doesn't work for a lot of dogs.
(31:00):
It's very results driven, isn't it? Absolutely.
Yeah.
And it's that communication and education, right? When you're explaining something.
Especially if it's a new client who brings their dog in.
My dogs have a bad experience, but I just want them groomed and they're mattered.
And that's because it's not that the guardian doesn't care and they feel so embarrassed about the state that their dog is in.
(31:26):
But that's because the dog won't even let them brush them.
And if you've got no handling skills and body language knowledge, and you take a brush to your dog and your dog turns around and goes, they're gonna go, woo, that's scary.
Okay, I'm not gonna do it.
And then time passes, they get busy in their lives and they go, wow, this is really bad.
I need to take you in, but I don't wanna take you to the other groomer.
(31:46):
And you find somebody else.
People don't do things to be bad.
Life happens and it's helping them go, that's okay.
we might not be able to do this all in one go.
I need to see how the dog responds to me, how they respond to the environment.
Even if I can just get them to let me touch them.
That is a great step.
(32:06):
And it's that communication of explaining I am new, they don't know me.
These are new smells, these are new places.
There are new things here.
I have to get to know this dog as well as build a relationship of trust with this dog.
Because once I have that, the rest is so much easier.
And the Rest just falls into place, doesn't it? And there's no magic wand and I wish we all had one.
(32:30):
It would be so nice.
I think one of the other problems as well is groomers.
Because they don't have that training and behavior knowledge that say we've got, they can't teach the guardians how to help.
So I've got one client, she travels nearly an hour each way to me.
(32:51):
And she's got a cockapoo.
honestly, the first time she came to me, I spent more time focusing on her than the dog.
The dog Penny.
was just doing free work, but she was in such a stage because she'd been told off for not brushing her dog.
She'd been told off for letting it getted every session she was getting told off and lectured, but not at any point did the groomer show her how to groom her dog.
(33:20):
Yeah.
And there was no help.
But the funny thing is her husband was a dog trainer.
That went in and helped sometimes.
And she came and this lady, poor lady, absolutely lovely lady, so stressed that first session and she was just crying and, she was finding it really difficult.
(33:41):
And I'm thinking, no wonder the dog's stressed because she was so stressed and it got to that point where they couldn't work together.
She and the dog couldn't work together.
it was affecting the rest of the LA as well.
they were both anxious all the time and didn't really know much about consent and working at the dog's, pace.
(34:03):
the relief on her face when I started talking about, how to line brush.
How to work with the dog at the dog's pace and only doing a little bit each time and then building on that.
And she came back the next time and we talked about body language, we talked about trigger stacking.
(34:23):
We were talking, I'd talked to her about giving the dog choice, let the dog walk at her own pace.
And she came back about four weeks later and the relationship between them changed enormously.
Amazing.
And now we're nearly coming up to a year and it's a totally different relationship.
(34:44):
The dog trusts us so much.
Yeah.
She was telling me that, on a Saturday morning, she takes her dog around the park and they go to the cafe afterwards.
She says, what I've started doing now, 'cause Penny didn't like going into the cafe, I was having to pick her up and drag her in.
She says what to do now is I let Penny choose when we go in.
(35:05):
we walk towards it and if Penny stops, we stop.
And then when Penny goes a bit further, we go a bit further and then Penny will decide she's ready to go in That just makes me, the fact that she's taken information I've given her about grooming she's applied that in real life as well, her everyday life.
(35:27):
The trust between them now is amazing.
we've got a question there from someone listening in about how to manage guardian expectations.
So when a dog drops.
when a human drops a dog off to be groomed and they're expecting to collect a perfectly groomed dog, but for the dog, it would've been too much.
(35:49):
And dogs have to be listened to when they're telling you, no, we need to respect that.
That is no, that they're communicating and stops.
So how do you manage their expectations as a new client that actually you are going to listen to their dog if their dog displays signs that it's too much? I'm not sure how Emily deals with this, but because I'm well known for my approach, I set my stall out, from, say if I get a new client ring me and say, oh, I need my dog.
(36:30):
Can you fit my dog in? If they just say, can you fit my dog in? Then it's a no because I know that they're just looking for the first groomer That comes up on Facebook.
So if I get one that wants a little bit more support, I will talk to 'em on the phone about my approach.
Make it very clear that I only work at the dog's pace, but then I send an email Yes.
(36:57):
And I even more information and then it's in my terms and conditions as well.
they have to sign up to my terms and conditions before they get an appointment.
And then they have to book and pay for four sessions.
By the fourth session, I might not even have touched their dog.
Because I've got a seven step approach.
the first session they come in and do is free work.
(37:19):
And depending how the dog copes in the cell the second session might be another free work without me touching them.
I'll only work to the next level when I feel the dog is ready So I'm just really quite strict on how I work.
It's more difficult for, everyday groomers because there is that pressure to turn out a perfectly groomed dog.
(37:42):
But I think that's where groomers that do want to take more behavioral led approach, that's what they need to do.
They need to be putting the information out there on their websites, making it in, making the real point of their terms and conditions.
That they'll only work at the dog's pace.
And yes, I've had clients come for appointments that they paid for and never come back again.
(38:08):
But usually I've not had that happen for probably three years now.
And I think that's also such a good point because it doesn't actually happen often.
The clients who seek you out are the ones that are actually looking for that help.
they understand and they will work with you.
(38:30):
All the clients that are with me now are awesome.
They will do anything it takes for their dogs.
They genuinely love their dog.
They understand that emotional approach and they're absolutely so understanding, and that is who I want to work with.
And I understand for groomers who have that pressure of.
(38:50):
That running the business versus the grooming and then doing it ethically.
However, I still have bills to pay and it's very difficult for that.
most of the things you said, Sue, I absolutely agree with.
It's providing all that information beforehand, making it really clear because that gives them the choice if they want to continue and if they don't and what I say to myself, as long as I always do right by the dog, the services I provide and my code of conduct, my morals and my ethics, it's fine.
(39:21):
At the end of the day, that's, what it boils down to.
I find when you always approach it ethically, you'll always get bumps along the way, and that's running a business and doing work.
trying to do the best you can with what you have, Most of the time the people, it's the right people who find you anyway.
Yeah.
I think that the other difference I, the way I'm different to a lot of groom is I get the guardians to stay for the first full session.
(39:44):
Open door policy hundred.
that has probably been one of the biggest game changers because I can educate them as I'm going along.
just say, did you see that? Can you see this? look at what's happening.
This is how I do this.
And then I have had quite a few groom clients that now they'll do part of the groom at home.
(40:05):
So I've got a, cockapoo is quite a big, cockapoo is more, labradoodle s is a cockapoo.
And she does part of him at home in between full grooms.
she does most of his torso and that, and then she brings him to me and I do his face and his lower legs.
'cause that's the bit he struggles with.
(40:26):
Yeah.
And that means that he's not got to be in the salon for me to do his longer period body.
Yeah.
So he can have a short session with me because I just do the bits she can't I'm okay with that because she's watch, she has watched me groom him.
She knows how the techniques I use, she always, I know when she does them at home, it's always got a li mat.
(40:49):
Yeah.
And for me, that works because I know that he can't tolerate a full groom all in one go.
one of the questions you mentioned earlier, Joe, when you said, what are the questions? It's, am I allowed to watch my dog being groomed? Am I allowed to see them? most of the time they go, no, the dog doesn't behave when the owner's around.
(41:10):
no, I'm safe until I need you to be here.
it actually helps your dog feel safer and tell what's going on.
Yeah.
And I was listening to the questions you're saying, Ashley groomer firstly ask, can you stay? If they say no can you video the groom for me then so I can pick up the areas he is struggling with and I can work at home with him? And if they say no to that, then you know, it's a big red flag.
(41:35):
I would imagine that most people go into becoming a groomer because they love dogs they don't realize that traditional grooming methods are damaging and traumatic for their dogs emotionally, which will likely have a knock on effect to behavior and undesired behaviors.
(42:01):
But ultimately, that emotional safety is what we all strive for our dogs.
Physical safety should be a given, emotional safety should be a given.
What would you say to someone who has trained as a traditional groomer who's listening to this and thinking, actually what I'm doing isn't right? What would you say to them? Firstly, contact me anytime.
(42:28):
I'm always willing to help people.
But I think it's, no, there's very few groomers that go out to deliberately hurt a dog emotionally or physically.
Yes.
We've got, we seem to be having a trend at the moment of TikTok groomers doing these horrendous videos of making fun of the dogs that are stressing.
(42:49):
But I think what a lot of groomers don't realize because they've not been trained in this body language and in dog behavior, that some dogs find what we think the most stupidest thing is scary, And because it's the way they've been taught to have a noose round, they'll put a noose on the dog's neck, not thinking that noose around that dog's neck might be really aversive to that dog.
(43:14):
Yeah.
And it's not that they don't care about the dog, it's just something they've always been taught to do.
Not necessarily thinking how it's gonna impact the dog.
So there's lots of stuff in the salon.
Perfume, shampoo and using colognes.
That's when you think about how powerful a dog sense of smell is, that must be horrendous to some dogs.
(43:38):
Really aversive, having sprays, that can be really aversive for some dogs.
Just that fizzing sound.
I've had a couple of dogs that I can't use a towel on because they find the towels so aversive.
it might be something else that another groomer might not pick up on that it's all based down to the individual dog.
(44:00):
Yeah.
And their preferences.
I think when your focus is on doing the job you are being paid for, and you are looking at the dog from above or the side, if you are not trained in reading a dog's body language, if you haven't studied how to do that and those observations, I imagine it must be quite easy to miss some of the more subtle body language.
(44:26):
I consider I'm quite good at reading body language and I video a lot of my grooms and I still miss stuff.
I had a little, patterdale.
A few weeks ago, this poor dad is on an insect diet because if he has normal dog food, his stomach bleeds, he's got some pain issues going on as well, I think.
(44:49):
But we've, he's working with, they're working with a vet and they've not been able to, 'cause he's so touch sensitive, he can't be examined properly at the moment.
I've referred them to a local, place where they do, free x-rays and stuff like that.
she's gonna get in touch with them Again, another brilliant guardian.
(45:10):
But we've got, and I don't clip him I hands well.
He needs to be hand strip, but he can't tolerate the proper hand stripping.
So I just use a pull stone to pull the fur out and he's got to the place of, I actually think he quite enjoys it now, he was on my table a few weeks ago.
Talking away to me.
(45:30):
I got the video on his head was away from me and I was going down his back I just went near his tail and he turned around and snapped.
But I had, what I did later was watch the video back because obviously I couldn't see his face.
Just before he turned, his eyes went really wide for a split second.
(45:52):
if I'd have been looking at his face, I would've seen that.
what I did like about that though, he turned around and snapped.
It was a snap rather than, an intended bite, just a warning.
What I liked about it is that he recovered almost immediately.
That's amazing.
I think he was just shocked by his response as we were, it's the first time he's done it, he did get off the table.
(46:14):
had a walk around my salon for 30 seconds, got back on the table and we carried on.
I think that's the struggle as a groomer because to do multiple things at once, whether you're scissoring using a clip or whatever it is you're doing, you have to do that without cutting, hurting, or doing anything to the dog.
So you're solely focused on one area of the dog's body, but you have to use your peripheral view to see any other signals that the dog might show or display, especially when you're focusing on one area.
(46:44):
it can be really difficult.
you can be so good at reading body language, but because you're solely focused on one area and you don't wanna hurt or cut them, you can miss the other signals happening This might be a completely daft idea, and I'm conscious that we're running over time again, because as always, we're so passionate about what we're talking about.
(47:06):
But just quickly, to float an idea, is it possible to have, you, it might still miss things, but is it possible to have the video like you've got set up, Sue, where you can see, you can watch back the dog's, facial expressions, but have that projecting onto a larger TV screen that is.
(47:28):
Behind where you are doing the groove.
I think that would be, it's obviously possible to do it, but I think again, you'd, still be distracted.
You probably wouldn't necessarily be looking at it at the right time.
But what I can say about, because I watched the video back 'cause I was really, I knew he would've given 'cause he is a brilliant communicator.
(47:49):
This dog his communication is brilliant.
So I knew he would've done something before the snap.
Yeah.
So I'm really glad videoed it.
So what I can do now, because this guardian always stays while he is got, he's back to me.
She could be watching his face for me.
Brilliant.
it's not a bad idea.
It would depend on the individual dog.
(48:09):
that background could be overwhelming for them.
Yes.
It's a clever question.
I was trying to think of all the different ways that could work with the right dog.
we just got one last question.
About why a lot of groomers are reluctant to adapt to more consent based methods? Is it a reluctance to give their client dogs more autonomy? Good question.
(48:33):
I think a lot of it, I did a poll in my group a few weeks ago about this and the majority of groomers said it's because their owners don't want it.
That's an education piece.
A, a reluctance from the guardians rather than from the groomers.
Yeah.
(48:53):
But that was the guardian that was the groomer's opinion.
That their owners don't want it.
But I'd be interesting to find their owners to ask if they would have it, was the option there.
And again, it boils down to education, doesn't it? It does, yeah.
a lot of guardians don't know about a more consent boat.
(49:16):
They just take the dog to a groomer and think we're all the same.
And that dog tick the box that's that off the to-do list.
That's actually such a good question.
I once had a groomer say to me, I don't have time to learn that.
I've got too many dogs to do.
Oh gosh.
and again, it boils down to that topic, education, understanding.
(49:39):
And I don't think groomers want to pay for it either.
Yes.
But if you go on the icp.com
and go on the free tab, there is a free canine communication bite-size course that you can download.
Amazing.
I would love for every groomer who has not studied behavior to undertake that course, and it's free.
(50:01):
Its a gift.
Do that Because they think they've got to use a noose all the time to keep them safe if a dog trusts you, you don't need tools to keep you safe.
I've put the link, if you're watching this, I've put the link in for that free course Thank you, Joe.
I think it's been two years.
in the nine years I've been grooming since I've opened my own salon and used my own ways.
(50:23):
I think I've been bitten three times and they are level one bites.
So they've not even really broke the skin.
I think about one that broke the skin.
They've been really minor bites.
to summarize, if you're watching this and you're a guardian, make sure that you ask the questions that we've covered in tonight's session that Sue and Emily have shared of your groomers, and before you choose a groomer, if you are a groomer and you're watching this, please do at least the free bite-size canine communication course on the i scp.com.
(51:01):
And we need to take things at the dog's pace rather than thinking, I need to groom this dog.
It needs to be consent based.
There needs to be no timeline.
It needs to be at the dog's pace rather than the human pace.
Sue, before we let you go, where can people contact you? Where can they find out more about the amazing work that you are doing? Okay, so the most obvious piece is my Facebook group, which is taking the ger outta grooming dogs, and that's GRRR.
(51:34):
all anybody can join.
It doesn't matter whether you're a guardian, a groomer, amazing professional.
All I ask is that you answer the joining questions.
Then I've got, an education portal where there's lots of courses for groomers, predominantly.
I've got a few for guardians as well.
And that's www taking the go.co.uk.
(51:59):
if you're on Amazon, I've got my three books as well.
or if you're in the uk, especially if you want to buy multiple copies, I do discounts.
So drop me a message at info at happy pause with sue.co
uk and I'll sort you out.
Thank you so much for jumping on the Dog Expert podcast.
Really appreciated having you on.
(52:21):
So glad that Sue could join us this evening.
So grateful to listen to both of you talking about how you guys implement consent based grooming in your salons.
So cool.
Next week on the Dog Expert Podcast, we are talking about all things canine reactivity, and we have the most amazing guest in the wonderful Jay Gerdon.
(52:51):
Jay is a canine principal's tutor.
She also tutors for the ISCP She has published several books and I've read two of them and they are fantastic.
One of her books, in fact, her first book is all about canine reactivity.
Jay is going to join us next week and she's going to be helping you if you are a guardian manage your reactive dog.
(53:18):
if you're a professional, she's going to help with any questions you've got around dogs that you have currently got.
I'm so excited again.
Me too.
Is it one of your favorites? It's one my wonderful.
So thank you to everyone who's watched us this week please share, subscribe, and invite all your doggie friends to watch the Dog Expert Podcast, we will See you next week.
(53:48):
Bye everyone.
Thank you for listening to the Dog Expert Podcast, the podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
If you've enjoyed this episode, let us know in our free Facebook group for dog lovers Ethical Dog Training with Canine principles.
That way we can make more content like this that you'll love.
(54:08):
We would love for you to leave a review and hit subscribe so that you never miss an episode.
Welcome to the Dog Expert Podcast.
The podcast dogs would want you to listen to, powered by canine principles.com.
Helping passionate dog people go from feeling unsure and overwhelmed to confident, compassionate, and science savvy through a rich library of online courses and formal qualifications.
(00:25):
Each week on the podcast, we dive deep into the real, raw and rewarding world of dogs.
This isn't about obedience, this is about understanding, because dogs aren't problems to solve.
They're free thinking, sentient beings to connect with.
(00:45):
Hello.
Good evening.
We're back.
So last week I was so excited about our guest speakers that I forgot to introduce us.
That's alright.
So I'm gonna start with that this week.
My name's Jamie Ton and I am the head of studies at Canine Principals, the principal of the International School for Canine Psychology.
(01:11):
I head up the Institute for the International Institute for Canine Ethics.
Basically I'm a dog geek and I'm very passionate about cognitive led rehab.
Emily, do you wanna introduce yourself? Hi everyone.
My name is Emily Dustin.
(01:31):
I own and run Sea Spot Learn here in New Zealand.
I am a behaviorist and dog trainer.
I also specialize in puppyhood development theory, activity and separation and isolation distress.
I run a grooming salon where it is reward based methods and encouraging or working on dog's confidence when it comes to handling.
(01:55):
And yeah, that's me.
This week we are talking about something that is right up your street, We are talking about help.
My dog hates the groomers.
It's such a common problem that so many people experience.
And they don't realize the impact.
Later on, if they don't handle their dogs or from puppy hood, get them used to that, touch that exposure.
(02:21):
it's such a different approach from the dog's perspective, when they come to you, you touch their head, scratch their ear, give them little tickle under the chin, and then now you're going up to them invading their space, holding them, brushing them, grabbing their foot, trying to clip a nail.
And that can be very overwhelming and scary from the dog's perspective.
(02:42):
Absolutely.
we see it a lot in rescues and it's not just uncomfortable.
It's absolutely terrifying when a dog who has experienced trauma is taken against their will to another place that they're not familiar with.
they are.
Forced to be handled by a complete stranger.
(03:06):
They have no choice about whether or not they consent to this and they're strung up by their necks on a table forced to have a hair dryer on them after they've been manhandled or woman handled.
So what we're really going to be looking at this evening is why grooming is.
(03:29):
Emotionally challenging for so many dogs, the kind of silent stresses of traditional grooming environments.
How cooperative consent based care can really change everything.
And also maybe some tips around grooming anxiety.
Now we might be joined by a wonderful lady called Sue.
(03:52):
In fact, I believe she is right here right now.
I'm gonna add Sue to the stage.
Hello, Sue.
Welcome Sue.
Hi, I think you look fabulous.
Can you hear me okay? Loud and clear.
So you've just literally had a dog in the salon, haven't you? Can you hear us? Oh, Sue's frozen.
(04:15):
She'll come back.
I've got all three dogs of my own and they've all come in with me because my husband's out.
I let them all in with me.
That's where I've got the headset on.
So if the bark, you won't see them, you might see a face now and again.
Anyone listening to the podcast, if you go onto YouTube and watch the episode, you'll see one of Sue's dogs casually walking past the camera right then.
(04:41):
Sue, tell us more about you, and for anyone who's not familiar, you are Sue Williamson, tell us all about you and why you're passionate about this.
Oh, she's frozen again.
Sue's gone.
Oh, no.
Oh, dear Sue Signal dear, keeps going, dear while Sue, sorts her signal out.
(05:02):
We'll see if we can get her back on in a minute.
do you want to kick off about why grooming is emotionally challenging for so many dogs? Oh, absolutely.
As I mentioned earlier, it's from the dog's perspective, This entails a whole concoction of emotion because it's one thing to have your dog approach you and you're touching them, giving them that scratch.
(05:26):
And then there's that other thing where you are approaching them and they might not understand what your intentions are.
They might, avoid what it is that you're doing, and then that leads you to then grab them and pull them close to you, which then works on more fear emotional responses.
When it comes to grooming and the approach, usually one of the best things to do is go really slow.
(05:51):
Help the dog feel safe.
The moment the dog feels safe, you have a more willing participant in handling and interacting with them.
Exposure is probably the foundation and the most important part, I like to use lick mats to start.
chewing or licking increases endorphins from the hypothalamus in the pituitary gland.
So it's a natural way to help the dog feel good while creating positive associations at the same time.
(06:17):
if it's something we go, oh, we need to get you brushed.
We need to start brushing you.
And this would vary, right? Either from a puppy who's never had this done before, an older dog who maybe has it once in a while, but it's not consistent enough for the dog to get used to it.
Or a new rescue dog where you have no background or history on this dog.
And that slow part is so important.
(06:39):
it's Hand movements going closer and going back.
even looking now at the camera from the dog's perspective, if I'm like, oh, hi, let's just touch you, that can be really overwhelming and cause a bit of a freeze or flight response.
So it's that hand movement goes up or towards toss, a treat away from you, dog comes back going, oh, that was quite nice.
(07:00):
Still not paired the hand movement yet, but with repetition.
Every time you move the hand in the directions of the dog, you toss a treat, they go, oh, I like it when your hand moves, I get treats.
Your hands are predictable and safe and building it up from there.
So what we're ultimately looking for is that emotionally supportive, really low stress welfare, first approach to grooming.
(07:26):
if someone watching or listening wanted to choose a groomer for a first time, or they wanted to change their groomers to make sure that the groomer they were using is taking an approach that is dog centric in this way, what sort of questions should they be asking? questions would be, how many dogs do you groom in your salon a day? How many staff members are there? Is my dog on the table? Are they restrained? my dog's a little bit nervous.
(08:01):
And sometimes can growl What would you do to help them? Someone's answers are a good indication of their methods they may say, if they growl, or they're not feeling confident, we just see what we can do with them.
We might not even get them on the table.
We might just toss 'em, treats, play, see how they interact.
(08:22):
So more of an observation session.
If you have a response that goes, oh, they'll be fine.
You'll see.
We'll just take them and they'll just be all right.
But there's no actual answer to your question.
That would be a red flag for me.
I would also say, do you use treats? what restraints do you use on the table? do you muzzle dogs? How do you handle a situation if the dog's nails don't want to be clipped? one of those things is there's so many posts and pictures out there and a lot of grooming salons have those, braces where they put the dog's legs in that string them up.
(09:00):
So the dog is completely out of options.
I think I saw, it was a couple of weeks ago, I had to flick through it really quickly because my emotions just went on fire.
they thought it was funny that the dog was wriggling in this harness string.
That holds them up and the dog is wriggling and the body is just trying to escape and they're laughing going, ah, ha.
(09:22):
What a silly dog holding the foot, which can also physically hurt can pull the ligaments out, do so much physical damage, never alone the emotional distress that the dog is going through.
And then they're trying to clip their nails.
So the questions to ask isn't just based on, what is their salon like, how many members or staff members, or how many dogs in a day? It's handling skills.
(09:45):
What do you do if the dog does this? How would you approach it? Do you give me information if my dog is not coping? And can you give me a program to work at home? Brilliant.
If you are watching, whether you are live, whether you are watching a playback, please do comment and let us know.
(10:06):
how your experiences have been with groomers and whether you know of any ones that have taken an approach similar.
And also share this far and wide please, because we need to spread the word, the education piece around it not being funny, a dog being put in a basket, almost type mesh mechanism, and having no autonomy at all and no control, no choice.
(10:35):
It is as a captive, it is really, emotionally damaging and traumatic for that dog and the behavior, knock on effect in other areas.
It's not feeling safe emotionally in any regard at that point.
Amazing.
Sue, I'm in awe.
the books that you've written, and there are several around this topic.
(10:58):
Yeah.
Taking the guru outta Grooming, for example.
So Good.
Can you tell people a bit more about you and why you feel passionately about spreading the word about more ethical grooming practices? Oh, it's just one of those things.
It just makes so much sense to me.
when I started, training to be a dog groomer, I was already through my talent and TTouch, training.
(11:21):
we learned a lot about trust, watching dogs', body language, giving dogs choices very much in TTouch.
So I'd already got those basics when I started dog grooming.
And then I went into my training salon and it was quite a shock.
I'd never seen a dog groom beginning to end before, and then all of a sudden I was in the salon and these dogs were, to be fair, most of 'em were not too bad.
(11:50):
But, we were getting German shepherds coming in panton and the big dogs to be handling when they're stressed.
And then we'd have little shihtzu that were my complete nemesis in training.
I think that's the only time I got fitting training was by a shit suit that I was trying to buy.
And then I, once I finished my groom training, I opened my own salon and it just sort things kept happening.
(12:20):
The I'd suddenly change How i's grooming dogs? So for example, I had, labradoodle, I used to groom, and I'd put her on the table, have the safety aids on and she'd be up high and I'd be standing.
she wasn't a fan of being groomed.
And I must admit I deduce the safety aids or safety restraints to start with.
'cause I was inexperienced and she really struggled.
(12:45):
And the next time she came into me, she just laid down on the floor.
Refused to get on the table.
She was not getting on that table.
She was a big dog.
so I just thought, I'm gonna sit next to you and see what I can do.
And I managed to do a full clip off with her laying on the floor Amazing.
And I thought, obviously this is more comfortable for her than standing high upon a table.
(13:08):
So the next time she came in, I actually put my table down low 'cause it was a little bit uncomfortable sitting on the floor.
The next time, when I got the table low, she laid down on the table.
So that was how I grew her from then on a low table.
And that got me into grooming more dogs on a low table.
because I got a low table, I didn't need the safety restraints.
(13:30):
It just kept developing.
each dog I groomed taught me something else, or taught me another technique or made me think outside the box to use a different technique.
it just became second nature to think about how I could adapt each groom to suit individual dog.
And that I love that.
It was just before covid.
After I qualified as a te touch practitioner, it meant I could do one day workshops.
(13:56):
I decided to focus on grooming because I used te touch in the grooming salons without relax the dogs.
And I started doing the workshops for groomers, and I was stunned at the lack of canine knowledge.
You talk about farming signals and you just get these blank faces, trigger stacking just blew.
(14:17):
I started writing lots of notes to go alongside the training course, and I said to one of my friends in passing one day, I've got lovely way to write a book now.
She says you write it then and I'll edit it.
I'll publish it.
And that's what we did.
That's what really started it all off to get the word out there.
And that was the Cardinal's version.
(14:39):
Then they did the groomers version, and it's really all snowballed from there.
none of this was pre-planned it, it's just develops organically.
Really.
it just happens.
And, born from a passion to see a difference and make a difference for the benefit of dogs everywhere.
Yeah.
I wonder so.
(15:01):
You say about, obviously education is my jam and I'm very passionate about education and I think education holds the key to, if we're open to learning and I believe we never stop learning.
We're always learning more in each dog teaches us something different.
Do you see a future where dog behavior, even just the basic body language and, calming signals, being included as a requirement for groomers at some point I would love to think so.
(15:36):
hopefully I've started to sew the seeds that it will be included in trading and, hopefully interest as well.
Stephanie, and we were, we did an hold a webinar together a few weeks ago for rumors, trying to, little bit to pay more attention to body language and have a more dog led approach.
(15:59):
We have a good amount of groomers watching us.
That's a lot of them were already doing, but we are gonna keep working together, put forward, and trying all groomers to pay attention to language.
For some of it is so mind little tiniest twitch in the body can tell you so much.
(16:20):
Absolutely.
a lot of groomers think that.
Body language is just the dog growling whereas If you just pay a little bit of, oh, your audio's cutting out a bit there, Sue, sorry, your mic.
I don't need your mic there.
So can body language.
(16:41):
the tiniest change in body language can make such a, it's communication ultimately their behavior, their body language.
But if we don't learn to listen and read their communication, then it's going to get missed.
And for me, with cognitive led rehab being my kind of, passion it's all about choice and the more traditional grooming.
(17:10):
Methods to me offer the dog no choice.
Yeah.
It's got to be done.
they've got to fill up with it 'cause it's got to be done.
And it doesn't have to be that way, it's a little bit harder for me because the only dogs I do are dogs that have been referred to me because they've been banned from other salons.
Or would be referred to me because they can't cope in a normal salon environment.
(17:34):
So I don't get to groom dogs that are quite happy being groomed.
So I see more sensitive dogs, And I know not every dog's like that.
So a lot of dogs, particularly if they've been bought into the, the grooming salon using a dog led approach, a lot of dogs can be quite happy being groomed or relaxed, being groomed, but Lots are not.
(17:56):
some of the videos that have been shared, I was listening to Emily talking about the dog in the hammock.
Sorry, my brain.
It's just No, it's awful.
Isn't what you can't think of.
They're called hammer, called calming cradle.
Named is a calming cradle.
it's not the tool itself that's the problem.
It's how it's used.
There can be times when a calming cradle, if say for example, if a dog's got an injury, so can't support the body whilst rubbing the claw.
(18:26):
If you have the dog so it can rest, it's pause, touch the table.
'cause they're not supposed to be walking the middle of the air.
Yes.
They're supposed to be able to touch the table so they can support some dogs that have got injuries or getting old.
Just while I've had the clothes done and the paws done, but the feet will on the table, you must be watching the body language the whole time and that's what's missing.
(18:49):
I think also the main thing is instead of having the approach of just slapping it on and getting on with it, it's that gradual desensitization exposure to the hammock, right? Yeah.
So putting it on the floor, letting the dog sniff it, tossing a treat, a lot of methods that I use, not even just in training in other areas, to focus on this topic is a treat and retreat method.
(19:11):
If you go near it, good things happen.
And I give you the opportunity to escape.
then I can see if the dog chooses to engage or disengage from me.
when it comes to table work, one of the main things that I really try to encourage is got one of those electronic tables that go all the way down.
I'll start with a little bit of a lure, the dog looks at the table and I go, great.
(19:33):
I toss the treats away and I make it a game because games is the best.
'cause that's your motivation, right? Yeah.
And positive associations.
every time the dog gets closer to the table, I'll treat near the table, then I'll toss the treat the opposite direction.
And then you have more.
Of a confident behavior of a dog approaching the table.
Now I don't have to pick you up and put you on anymore 'cause it's a double-edged sword.
(19:55):
One I'm picking up multiple dogs is very physically exhausting.
So I'd rather teach you to want to go on the table to save my back, but I'm also creating a positive association at the Same time.
Yeah.
As a groomer.
I do exactly the same.
And it was really useful for me last year because, I have my table quite low, but I also have a set of caravan steps I've covered with carpet.
(20:20):
So I teach the dogs to get on and off the table themselves.
So I use table protocol a lot.
So off the table means you're gonna get groomed off the table means grooming stops.
And last year, the beginning of last year, I had a full knee replacement and I was about working within six weeks because.
The dogs do all the work for me.
(20:42):
If I'd had to wait until I could carry dogs around the salon, it would've been at least another two or three months.
But because I sit to groom and don't do any physical lifting, I could go back to work at six weeks.
It's just common sense to me, The least resistant path So you took it on yourself to further your education, about TTouch I think we've actually met at Tilly Farm Sue many years ago.
(21:07):
probably 10 years now, Many years ago I used to work with a charity.
We used to bring our kennel dogs down for the Practitioners to practice on.
I think we met then, and then I went on and did some of the, six day, t touch courses.
And I'm sure our paths have crossed before.
I'm sure it must have done, I used go down quite a lot.
(21:30):
Oh, it's a small world, isn't it? But you took it on yourself to educate yourself around all things dog, basically.
you've done some of the ISCP courses I believe every ethical dog professional should continue learning about dogs.
not only do we never stop learning, but there's always new stuff coming out and different findings and other ways that you spark your brain.
(21:56):
The other thing that I, firmly believe is that our brains will only absorb the information that is relevant to us at that time.
So you could hear the same information three different times over three years, and your brain will pick out the different things to absorb from that information at that time.
(22:16):
Even though you may, have covered some stuff during your grooming course, although it does sound like there isn't enough behavior work integrated into the grooming world at the moment, when you then study it again and hear that information again, it'll hit differently because you are not focused on the grooming, you're focused on the behavior of the dog.
(22:41):
to put a practical image in people's minds, do either of you or both of you have a case study that you could think of, or a favorite client Do you wanna go first, Sam? Yeah, sure.
one of the.
Oh, there's so many.
I know this is the third week and when I get asked a question, I'm like, I have so many that I could say, but let's go with one.
(23:04):
Is this your favorite subject too? Because you say that every week.
Every week.
I think when we picked out, when we've worked through all of our topics I was like, oh, this one's great.
Yes, this one's great.
Oh, I can't wait for this one.
So they're all gonna be my favorite.
So get ready for every week.
Me saying they are my favorite.
That's my favorite week.
So the one that I'll talk about is a wheatie named Bean or Beanie.
(23:29):
they moved up to Auckland from the South island and maybe now have, I want to say going on two years.
she came to me last year as a referral from another lovely groomer She was so hypersensitive and fearful she didn't show aggressive responses but there was a lot of avoidance and hyper activity.
(23:54):
But we're talking about excessive hyperactivity, right? So all she tried to do was diffusing, calming and avoidance.
And what I started with was just the basic floor work and the treats retreat.
And then it was on the table, off the table, on the table, off the table at a very low setting.
(24:14):
And then it was every tiny thing she needed to get used to before I even started.
And this took multiple sessions.
Sue, I'm sure you can understand that, running a salon, this is what I need to do for the dog.
But it also takes my time.
the client has to be a willing participant, and that is the big juggling act because the unrealistic expectations of that magic wand is very difficult to discuss because this dog was not coping.
(24:46):
This dog is struggling with being handled.
She had numerous bad experiences from previous groomers, so she's got a learned history of negative associations.
thankfully these owners were the most phenomenal people because they were like, it is okay, take your time.
(25:06):
Do what needs to be done.
We don't need her fully groomed just yet.
And I went, thank you for understanding because it is so hard.
Because they go I just want my dog groomed.
The general, not everybody, but generally I just want my dog groomed, don't care, just want them groomed because I can't brush their hair anymore and the dog wants to bite me.
And it took two, I think to start with, started 15 and thankfully they also lived down the road, which made it easier.
(25:34):
Three 15 minute sessions.
The first week, the second week was three 20 minute sessions.
And all this is, was that cooperative.
If you make that choice, that's great.
Good things happen.
If you don't want to do it, nothing happens.
whenever you do those things, the best things happen.
that would be going on the table, holding a position on the table, getting used to my hand movements, going close, going away, treat doing that treat.
(26:02):
every time I touched or interacted with her, good things happened.
Then it was the brush.
And so forth.
And I think the hardest part for her was the sound of the clipper, because the clipper vibrates.
So it's that sensation on the body while you're moving, especially when you put the clipper behind.
Remember for the dog, the clipper comes from behind so they hear auditory from different angles, and they can't see it.
(26:26):
So it's creating that sound association when they can't see it, which was also important.
this was gradual over several weeks to months, and now.
Probably a year in grooming Beanie.
She runs in, I have a predictable pattern with her, so she knows what to expect when she's on the table.
(26:49):
I start and she will have a signal where she goes, I've had enough.
So I stop and she jumps off and I wait.
And then when she's ready, she jumps back on again and presents herself and I go, great, we can carry on.
But that whole session, even with the retreats and treats and retreat method and creating positive associations in between breaks, I gave her enrichment.
(27:11):
She had lick maps puzzles, so it's that dopamine, positive endorphins, everything to make her feel better.
she didn't like it, but she learned to tolerate it and cope with it in a more positive way.
it takes time, but it's, to me, just the best approach.
That emotional safety is the underpinning factor, isn't it? Absolutely.
(27:33):
That I am safe.
I'm okay, and I've got choices.
And you are safe.
You are also safe.
Even though you're being weird and you've got weird extensions to your arms that vibrate against my skin.
You're okay? Yeah.
You're all right.
I'll tolerate this, but I feel safe with you, so it's okay.
(27:54):
Oh, I was just gonna ask if you had any case studies or, an example of one that stuck out in your head.
I think one of my favorites is a little, west Island Terrier, called Eddie.
He's just the most loveliest dog, but the first time he came to my salon, he just stood and barked at me the whole time.
(28:15):
I use animal centered education free work for the first session, so I'll put different surfaces on the floor with different foods on them, and I don't even try and engage with 'em on that first session, especially bearing in mind that the dogs eye get.
Have been referred to me, or the Guardian has come to me for my specialist services.
(28:38):
They know I'm not gonna groom that dog until it's ready to be groomed.
So I don't have that pressure applied to me.
Little Eddie, he came and after four or five sessions it was getting on and off the table and I was able to do a bit of grooming, but.
after just 10 minutes, he'd lose focus and couldn't reengage, so couldn't get back on the table, find lots of stuff to do, his displacement, and then he wouldn't have his harness put back on because that was a bone of contention with him as well.
(29:13):
And they'd got, they'd work this, there's a, these guardians are absolutely amazing.
They've got this protocol how they get this harness on, but you just want to engage with that.
So I knew we struggled having this harness put on and I knew we struggled in the car and it was about half an hour car journey for them.
So I said, look, let me come to your house.
(29:34):
So it Oh, that's nice.
Eliminates the need for the harness.
It eliminates the need for the car journey.
When I got there, they'd taught him that the place to be groomed was that they got four steps from their kitchen into their hallway.
And sitting on the top of the steps was this place to be groomed.
(29:55):
So we knew that protocol already.
And the second time I went to groom him there, they'd bought a little table, adjustable table.
It's not a proper grooming table, but it's adjustable table with a piece of carton.
And they've been out and bought a set of caravan steps the same as mine.
And they taught him table protocol, which was amazing.
(30:18):
And now he gets on and off the table.
rather than having 10 minutes to groom him, now I get three quarters of an hour where he can fully engage.
that's long enough for me to clip him off.
Sometimes he will let me scissor around his feet and his face.
Sometimes he won't, but that's fine.
We just do what we can.
(30:38):
It's just working out what works for that particular dog.
There's no fixed approach, which I think it, I think that's part of the problem of traditional standard grooming because you start at one end of the body, move forward, or start as a set procedure And that really doesn't work for a lot of dogs.
(31:00):
It's very results driven, isn't it? Absolutely.
Yeah.
And it's that communication and education, right? When you're explaining something.
Especially if it's a new client who brings their dog in.
My dogs have a bad experience, but I just want them groomed and they're mattered.
And that's because it's not that the guardian doesn't care and they feel so embarrassed about the state that their dog is in.
(31:26):
But that's because the dog won't even let them brush them.
And if you've got no handling skills and body language knowledge, and you take a brush to your dog and your dog turns around and goes, they're gonna go, woo, that's scary.
Okay, I'm not gonna do it.
And then time passes, they get busy in their lives and they go, wow, this is really bad.
I need to take you in, but I don't wanna take you to the other groomer.
(31:46):
And you find somebody else.
People don't do things to be bad.
Life happens and it's helping them go, that's okay.
we might not be able to do this all in one go.
I need to see how the dog responds to me, how they respond to the environment.
Even if I can just get them to let me touch them.
That is a great step.
(32:06):
And it's that communication of explaining I am new, they don't know me.
These are new smells, these are new places.
There are new things here.
I have to get to know this dog as well as build a relationship of trust with this dog.
Because once I have that, the rest is so much easier.
And the Rest just falls into place, doesn't it? And there's no magic wand and I wish we all had one.
(32:30):
It would be so nice.
I think one of the other problems as well is groomers.
Because they don't have that training and behavior knowledge that say we've got, they can't teach the guardians how to help.
So I've got one client, she travels nearly an hour each way to me.
(32:51):
And she's got a cockapoo.
honestly, the first time she came to me, I spent more time focusing on her than the dog.
The dog Penny.
was just doing free work, but she was in such a stage because she'd been told off for not brushing her dog.
She'd been told off for letting it getted every session she was getting told off and lectured, but not at any point did the groomer show her how to groom her dog.
(33:20):
Yeah.
And there was no help.
But the funny thing is her husband was a dog trainer.
That went in and helped sometimes.
And she came and this lady, poor lady, absolutely lovely lady, so stressed that first session and she was just crying and, she was finding it really difficult.
(33:41):
And I'm thinking, no wonder the dog's stressed because she was so stressed and it got to that point where they couldn't work together.
She and the dog couldn't work together.
it was affecting the rest of the LA as well.
they were both anxious all the time and didn't really know much about consent and working at the dog's, pace.
(34:03):
the relief on her face when I started talking about, how to line brush.
How to work with the dog at the dog's pace and only doing a little bit each time and then building on that.
And she came back the next time and we talked about body language, we talked about trigger stacking.
(34:23):
We were talking, I'd talked to her about giving the dog choice, let the dog walk at her own pace.
And she came back about four weeks later and the relationship between them changed enormously.
Amazing.
And now we're nearly coming up to a year and it's a totally different relationship.
(34:44):
The dog trusts us so much.
Yeah.
She was telling me that, on a Saturday morning, she takes her dog around the park and they go to the cafe afterwards.
She says, what I've started doing now, 'cause Penny didn't like going into the cafe, I was having to pick her up and drag her in.
She says what to do now is I let Penny choose when we go in.
(35:05):
we walk towards it and if Penny stops, we stop.
And then when Penny goes a bit further, we go a bit further and then Penny will decide she's ready to go in That just makes me, the fact that she's taken information I've given her about grooming she's applied that in real life as well, her everyday life.
(35:27):
The trust between them now is amazing.
we've got a question there from someone listening in about how to manage guardian expectations.
So when a dog drops.
when a human drops a dog off to be groomed and they're expecting to collect a perfectly groomed dog, but for the dog, it would've been too much.
(35:49):
And dogs have to be listened to when they're telling you, no, we need to respect that.
That is no, that they're communicating and stops.
So how do you manage their expectations as a new client that actually you are going to listen to their dog if their dog displays signs that it's too much? I'm not sure how Emily deals with this, but because I'm well known for my approach, I set my stall out, from, say if I get a new client ring me and say, oh, I need my dog.
(36:30):
Can you fit my dog in? If they just say, can you fit my dog in? Then it's a no because I know that they're just looking for the first groomer That comes up on Facebook.
So if I get one that wants a little bit more support, I will talk to 'em on the phone about my approach.
Make it very clear that I only work at the dog's pace, but then I send an email Yes.
(36:57):
And I even more information and then it's in my terms and conditions as well.
they have to sign up to my terms and conditions before they get an appointment.
And then they have to book and pay for four sessions.
By the fourth session, I might not even have touched their dog.
Because I've got a seven step approach.
the first session they come in and do is free work.
(37:19):
And depending how the dog copes in the cell the second session might be another free work without me touching them.
I'll only work to the next level when I feel the dog is ready So I'm just really quite strict on how I work.
It's more difficult for, everyday groomers because there is that pressure to turn out a perfectly groomed dog.
(37:42):
But I think that's where groomers that do want to take more behavioral led approach, that's what they need to do.
They need to be putting the information out there on their websites, making it in, making the real point of their terms and conditions.
That they'll only work at the dog's pace.
And yes, I've had clients come for appointments that they paid for and never come back again.
(38:08):
But usually I've not had that happen for probably three years now.
And I think that's also such a good point because it doesn't actually happen often.
The clients who seek you out are the ones that are actually looking for that help.
they understand and they will work with you.
(38:30):
All the clients that are with me now are awesome.
They will do anything it takes for their dogs.
They genuinely love their dog.
They understand that emotional approach and they're absolutely so understanding, and that is who I want to work with.
And I understand for groomers who have that pressure of.
(38:50):
That running the business versus the grooming and then doing it ethically.
However, I still have bills to pay and it's very difficult for that.
most of the things you said, Sue, I absolutely agree with.
It's providing all that information beforehand, making it really clear because that gives them the choice if they want to continue and if they don't and what I say to myself, as long as I always do right by the dog, the services I provide and my code of conduct, my morals and my ethics, it's fine.
(39:21):
At the end of the day, that's, what it boils down to.
I find when you always approach it ethically, you'll always get bumps along the way, and that's running a business and doing work.
trying to do the best you can with what you have, Most of the time the people, it's the right people who find you anyway.
Yeah.
I think that the other difference I, the way I'm different to a lot of groom is I get the guardians to stay for the first full session.
(39:44):
Open door policy hundred.
that has probably been one of the biggest game changers because I can educate them as I'm going along.
just say, did you see that? Can you see this? look at what's happening.
This is how I do this.
And then I have had quite a few groom clients that now they'll do part of the groom at home.
(40:05):
So I've got a, cockapoo is quite a big, cockapoo is more, labradoodle s is a cockapoo.
And she does part of him at home in between full grooms.
she does most of his torso and that, and then she brings him to me and I do his face and his lower legs.
'cause that's the bit he struggles with.
(40:26):
Yeah.
And that means that he's not got to be in the salon for me to do his longer period body.
Yeah.
So he can have a short session with me because I just do the bits she can't I'm okay with that because she's watch, she has watched me groom him.
She knows how the techniques I use, she always, I know when she does them at home, it's always got a li mat.
(40:49):
Yeah.
And for me, that works because I know that he can't tolerate a full groom all in one go.
one of the questions you mentioned earlier, Joe, when you said, what are the questions? It's, am I allowed to watch my dog being groomed? Am I allowed to see them? most of the time they go, no, the dog doesn't behave when the owner's around.
(41:10):
no, I'm safe until I need you to be here.
it actually helps your dog feel safer and tell what's going on.
Yeah.
And I was listening to the questions you're saying, Ashley groomer firstly ask, can you stay? If they say no can you video the groom for me then so I can pick up the areas he is struggling with and I can work at home with him? And if they say no to that, then you know, it's a big red flag.
(41:35):
I would imagine that most people go into becoming a groomer because they love dogs they don't realize that traditional grooming methods are damaging and traumatic for their dogs emotionally, which will likely have a knock on effect to behavior and undesired behaviors.
(42:01):
But ultimately, that emotional safety is what we all strive for our dogs.
Physical safety should be a given, emotional safety should be a given.
What would you say to someone who has trained as a traditional groomer who's listening to this and thinking, actually what I'm doing isn't right? What would you say to them? Firstly, contact me anytime.
(42:28):
I'm always willing to help people.
But I think it's, no, there's very few groomers that go out to deliberately hurt a dog emotionally or physically.
Yes.
We've got, we seem to be having a trend at the moment of TikTok groomers doing these horrendous videos of making fun of the dogs that are stressing.
(42:49):
But I think what a lot of groomers don't realize because they've not been trained in this body language and in dog behavior, that some dogs find what we think the most stupidest thing is scary, And because it's the way they've been taught to have a noose round, they'll put a noose on the dog's neck, not thinking that noose around that dog's neck might be really aversive to that dog.
(43:14):
Yeah.
And it's not that they don't care about the dog, it's just something they've always been taught to do.
Not necessarily thinking how it's gonna impact the dog.
So there's lots of stuff in the salon.
Perfume, shampoo and using colognes.
That's when you think about how powerful a dog sense of smell is, that must be horrendous to some dogs.
(43:38):
Really aversive, having sprays, that can be really aversive for some dogs.
Just that fizzing sound.
I've had a couple of dogs that I can't use a towel on because they find the towels so aversive.
it might be something else that another groomer might not pick up on that it's all based down to the individual dog.
(44:00):
Yeah.
And their preferences.
I think when your focus is on doing the job you are being paid for, and you are looking at the dog from above or the side, if you are not trained in reading a dog's body language, if you haven't studied how to do that and those observations, I imagine it must be quite easy to miss some of the more subtle body language.
(44:26):
I consider I'm quite good at reading body language and I video a lot of my grooms and I still miss stuff.
I had a little, patterdale.
A few weeks ago, this poor dad is on an insect diet because if he has normal dog food, his stomach bleeds, he's got some pain issues going on as well, I think.
(44:49):
But we've, he's working with, they're working with a vet and they've not been able to, 'cause he's so touch sensitive, he can't be examined properly at the moment.
I've referred them to a local, place where they do, free x-rays and stuff like that.
she's gonna get in touch with them Again, another brilliant guardian.
(45:10):
But we've got, and I don't clip him I hands well.
He needs to be hand strip, but he can't tolerate the proper hand stripping.
So I just use a pull stone to pull the fur out and he's got to the place of, I actually think he quite enjoys it now, he was on my table a few weeks ago.
Talking away to me.
(45:30):
I got the video on his head was away from me and I was going down his back I just went near his tail and he turned around and snapped.
But I had, what I did later was watch the video back because obviously I couldn't see his face.
Just before he turned, his eyes went really wide for a split second.
(45:52):
if I'd have been looking at his face, I would've seen that.
what I did like about that though, he turned around and snapped.
It was a snap rather than, an intended bite, just a warning.
What I liked about it is that he recovered almost immediately.
That's amazing.
I think he was just shocked by his response as we were, it's the first time he's done it, he did get off the table.
(46:14):
had a walk around my salon for 30 seconds, got back on the table and we carried on.
I think that's the struggle as a groomer because to do multiple things at once, whether you're scissoring using a clip or whatever it is you're doing, you have to do that without cutting, hurting, or doing anything to the dog.
So you're solely focused on one area of the dog's body, but you have to use your peripheral view to see any other signals that the dog might show or display, especially when you're focusing on one area.
(46:44):
it can be really difficult.
you can be so good at reading body language, but because you're solely focused on one area and you don't wanna hurt or cut them, you can miss the other signals happening This might be a completely daft idea, and I'm conscious that we're running over time again, because as always, we're so passionate about what we're talking about.
(47:06):
But just quickly, to float an idea, is it possible to have, you, it might still miss things, but is it possible to have the video like you've got set up, Sue, where you can see, you can watch back the dog's, facial expressions, but have that projecting onto a larger TV screen that is.
(47:28):
Behind where you are doing the groove.
I think that would be, it's obviously possible to do it, but I think again, you'd, still be distracted.
You probably wouldn't necessarily be looking at it at the right time.
But what I can say about, because I watched the video back 'cause I was really, I knew he would've given 'cause he is a brilliant communicator.
(47:49):
This dog his communication is brilliant.
So I knew he would've done something before the snap.
Yeah.
So I'm really glad videoed it.
So what I can do now, because this guardian always stays while he is got, he's back to me.
She could be watching his face for me.
Brilliant.
it's not a bad idea.
It would depend on the individual dog.
(48:09):
that background could be overwhelming for them.
Yes.
It's a clever question.
I was trying to think of all the different ways that could work with the right dog.
we just got one last question.
About why a lot of groomers are reluctant to adapt to more consent based methods? Is it a reluctance to give their client dogs more autonomy? Good question.
(48:33):
I think a lot of it, I did a poll in my group a few weeks ago about this and the majority of groomers said it's because their owners don't want it.
That's an education piece.
A, a reluctance from the guardians rather than from the groomers.
Yeah.
(48:53):
But that was the guardian that was the groomer's opinion.
That their owners don't want it.
But I'd be interesting to find their owners to ask if they would have it, was the option there.
And again, it boils down to education, doesn't it? It does, yeah.
a lot of guardians don't know about a more consent boat.
(49:16):
They just take the dog to a groomer and think we're all the same.
And that dog tick the box that's that off the to-do list.
That's actually such a good question.
I once had a groomer say to me, I don't have time to learn that.
I've got too many dogs to do.
Oh gosh.
and again, it boils down to that topic, education, understanding.
(49:39):
And I don't think groomers want to pay for it either.
Yes.
But if you go on the icp.com
and go on the free tab, there is a free canine communication bite-size course that you can download.
Amazing.
I would love for every groomer who has not studied behavior to undertake that course, and it's free.
(50:01):
Its a gift.
Do that Because they think they've got to use a noose all the time to keep them safe if a dog trusts you, you don't need tools to keep you safe.
I've put the link, if you're watching this, I've put the link in for that free course Thank you, Joe.
I think it's been two years.
in the nine years I've been grooming since I've opened my own salon and used my own ways.
(50:23):
I think I've been bitten three times and they are level one bites.
So they've not even really broke the skin.
I think about one that broke the skin.
They've been really minor bites.
to summarize, if you're watching this and you're a guardian, make sure that you ask the questions that we've covered in tonight's session that Sue and Emily have shared of your groomers, and before you choose a groomer, if you are a groomer and you're watching this, please do at least the free bite-size canine communication course on the i scp.com.
(51:01):
And we need to take things at the dog's pace rather than thinking, I need to groom this dog.
It needs to be consent based.
There needs to be no timeline.
It needs to be at the dog's pace rather than the human pace.
Sue, before we let you go, where can people contact you? Where can they find out more about the amazing work that you are doing? Okay, so the most obvious piece is my Facebook group, which is taking the ger outta grooming dogs, and that's GRRR.
(51:34):
all anybody can join.
It doesn't matter whether you're a guardian, a groomer, amazing professional.
All I ask is that you answer the joining questions.
Then I've got, an education portal where there's lots of courses for groomers, predominantly.
I've got a few for guardians as well.
And that's www taking the go.co.uk.
(51:59):
if you're on Amazon, I've got my three books as well.
or if you're in the uk, especially if you want to buy multiple copies, I do discounts.
So drop me a message at info at happy pause with sue.co
uk and I'll sort you out.
Thank you so much for jumping on the Dog Expert podcast.
Really appreciated having you on.
(52:21):
So glad that Sue could join us this evening.
So grateful to listen to both of you talking about how you guys implement consent based grooming in your salons.
So cool.
Next week on the Dog Expert Podcast, we are talking about all things canine reactivity, and we have the most amazing guest in the wonderful Jay Gerdon.
(52:51):
Jay is a canine principal's tutor.
She also tutors for the ISCP She has published several books and I've read two of them and they are fantastic.
One of her books, in fact, her first book is all about canine reactivity.
Jay is going to join us next week and she's going to be helping you if you are a guardian manage your reactive dog.
(53:18):
if you're a professional, she's going to help with any questions you've got around dogs that you have currently got.
I'm so excited again.
Me too.
Is it one of your favorites? It's one my wonderful.
So thank you to everyone who's watched us this week please share, subscribe, and invite all your doggie friends to watch the Dog Expert Podcast, we will See you next week.
(53:48):
Bye everyone.
Thank you for listening to the Dog Expert Podcast, the podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
If you've enjoyed this episode, let us know in our free Facebook group for dog lovers Ethical Dog Training with Canine principles.
That way we can make more content like this that you'll love.
(54:08):
We would love for you to leave a review and hit subscribe so that you never miss an episode.
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