June 6, 2025 ā¢ 47 mins
NEW EPISODE š§: āMine! The Truth About Resource Guardingā š¾
Food. Toys. The sofa. If your dog growls or guards their stuff - itās not about being ādominant.ā Itās about feeling unsafe.
This week on The Dog Expert Podcast, Jo and Emily are joined by special guest Holly Leake to unpack resource guarding. What causes it? How to help? And why safety beats control every time.
Ā
š§ Listen in - because your dog isnāt being difficult. Theyāre asking for security.
#ResourceGuarding #DogPodcast #TrustOverTraining #CanineBehaviour #TheDogExpertPodcast #CaninePrinciples #DogEducaiton
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Welcome to the Dog Expert Podcast.
The podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
Powered by canine principles.com.
Helping passionate dog people go from feeling unsure and overwhelmed to confident, compassionate, and science savvy through a rich library of online courses and formal qualifications.
(00:32):
Each week on the podcast, we dive deep into the real, raw and rewarding world of dogs.
This isn't about obedience.
This is about understanding because dogs aren't problems to solve.
They're free thinking, sentient beings to connect with.
(00:53):
Hello.
Morning.
Good afternoon, evening, wherever you may be.
Hello.
Hello.
Welcome back to the Dog Expert Podcast with me, Joe Middleton.
And.
Dustin.
Hello everybody.
How you doing? So back.
We have, some amazing topics in season one of the Dog Expert podcast and today is no different.
(01:20):
Our guests.
Have been outta this world.
And every week is Emily's favorite week.
it's just been so much fun.
And amazing to.
Talk with like-minded individuals and listen to their experiences and their knowledge.
I've just absolutely loved each week.
Each week is now my favorite every Thursday morning and every Wednesday evening if you guys have enjoyed season one of the Dog Expert podcast.
(01:47):
Please do subscribe to our YouTube channel, youtube.com/at
the Dog Expert podcast.
Hit that subscribe button, share with any doggy friends you've got and let them know all about it because we are delighted to say that we are coming back for season two.
(02:09):
So this evening we have got a really, misunderstood, topic sometimes.
We are going to be talking about resource guarding and we have got the perfect guest coming on to talk about resource guarding.
We have got the fabulous Holly leak Holly has been in my world for a few years now, through her work with the ISCP and also canine principles.
(02:41):
Holly is just one of those people who makes your life better just by being alive.
She genuinely is.
let me tell you a little bit about Holly.
She tutors for the ISCP.
She tutors for canine principles.
Holly has built a fantastic business that helps her local community with dog walking and training.
(03:04):
She's worked as a class instructor for many years, but now does more behavioral consults, one-to-one consults, and has been doing that for many years too.
Her specialism is around adolescence, around kids, around dogs.
She's very passionate about supporting families with their dogs, and.
(03:28):
As well as her behavioral consult.
She also works for Heal the Dogs, delivering behavioral support and advice to dog guardians via virtual consults.
So I feel like we need a drum roll for Holly.
Shall we try and do a little? Welcome, Holly.
(03:55):
Welcome to the Dog Expert Podcast.
Oh, thank you for having me.
Thank you for coming out to play this evening's topic that you are coming on to talk about is really tricky to deal with.
I'll share later on, a bit more about, a few of the dogs I've fostered over the years who've had challenges around resource guarding.
(04:18):
But do you want to tell everyone a bit more about you and what you do? I know I've given a little intro and, said what I think, but do you want to say in your own words? Yeah, I dabble in quite a lot of things.
I have far too many jobs basically in the industry.
Everyone asks me like, I thought you were working for such and I thought you were doing that, but I dabble in so much.
(04:39):
Primarily I'm working as a behavior consultant and doing virtual consults.
So how that works is they're every 20 to 30 minutes and they book back to back.
So it's a big rollout of value consultations quite constantly.
So I get a broad range of cases, including resource guarding.
you start to see.
Patterns quite quickly because you're having so many consultations, such a short time.
(05:04):
But yeah, I work as a one-to-one dog trainer as well, so that's adolescents, puppies, reactivity as well.
I'm a bit picky and choosy who I work with now because my plates just go full.
So in that privileged position now where I can pick and choose what cases I really wanna take on.
And then as you said, work as a tutor, which I absolutely love.
helping dogs one-to-one is brilliant, but you can help more dogs by helping more trainers.
(05:27):
You've got a greater reach, haven't you? So it's a different avenue of, improving canine welfare.
So I think probably the best place for us to start about resource guarding is to actually clarify for anyone listening who isn't quite sure what resource guarding is, what we mean by that term.
(05:52):
for a lot of people they picture the snarling growling dog with the bone in the corner and even extreme biting as well, and that's what they term resource, guarding But actually there are non-aggressive forms of resource guarding and that's probably.
The subtle signs we see before it escalates.
resource guarding is that anxiety and defense behavior around a perceived resource.
(06:13):
So that might be, a chew food, a bowl of food, a treat.
It can be location, so they're bad.
The sofa, your bed, and occasionally people as well.
And what we often see with many resource guarders is they actually become sensitive to touch as well.
So they even guard their own bodies.
They don't like to have their pores touched and we see that connection as well.
(06:35):
primarily what people see as resource guarding when they notice it is that sort of, growling, snarling behavior.
But there's a lot more to it, the initial symptoms we'd be looking for.
Are that freezing over a resource when you close the whale lie? Yeah.
Yeah.
That sort of, or maybe even with some dogs, it's that speeding up of eating, yes.
(06:56):
Go faster getting into their breathing really fast and they're getting stressed people don't notice that thing.
Oh, I've just got a really greedy dog.
But actually they've walked through the kitchen where they're eating a bowl and they're panicked a little bit, So there's actually a lot of more subtle signs of what resource guarding is, it's that anxiety, seeing your proximity as a perceived threat, and then how that dog's demeanor changes, when you get closer to them or whatever.
(07:19):
Change and context is so important with that because they might have a very loose demeanor.
And when I say loose, I mean it's almost like a.
An okay or floppy body language in the sense.
And as soon as you are in close proximity, it starts as relaxed and you can actually see that panic is starting and their body starts to ridge, and their breathing slows down, the head dips, ears go back.
(07:47):
You can see the white under their eyes.
And it's that very subtle dip, And you also see as well dogs sometimes you enter the room or sit on the sofa next to them and they're like I don't wanna sit next to you when I've got this chew or this toy.
I'm gonna take it over there.
Yes.
And that's another subtle sign that people miss quite often.
and respecting that as communication is so important rather than thinking it's funny, or trying to take it away from the dog.
(08:13):
Ultimately dogs guard.
Things because they're not feeling emotionally safe, which is, I know I bang on about this every week, but it does boil down to emotional safety and confidence, and it can stem from past experiences.
It can.
Stem from a lack of trust in humans as a whole, not necessarily just one individual human.
(08:40):
It can stem from a lack of trust in other dogs.
And it can even come from a genetic sort of, background.
ultimately it's a defensive behavior because they believe that something that's valuable to them or something that they've put a value on is.
(09:03):
Potentially going to be taken away.
So that range from the body freezing all the way through to biting, to saying back off, away from this, it could be anywhere in that range that you are seeing that emotional security displayed.
(09:25):
Definitely.
So if someone watching.
Or listening into the podcast, was concerned that they had seen some of the more subtle signs that you've spoken about this evening, and they hadn't necessarily picked up on that as potentially, resource guarding before.
(09:49):
What advice would you give them? It needs to be, that recognition.
So just like reactivity, there's that threshold level.
what sort of distance is triggering that, stillness and freezing, and what can I change in the environment to achieve that emotional safety.
So for example.
(10:11):
You often find that people go, oh, my dog doesn't resource guard, but you've got two dogs next to each other eating from their bowls, and they're eating really fast, and then they're worried about what the other one's got.
if we're changing.
Our environment so that the dog feels safe when they have resources that can make a massive difference on its own without any training to say, Hey, this is your designated area to have your chew.
This is your bed or your mat.
(10:32):
I'm gonna put you in a place that's not highly trafficked while you have that, so you don't feel the need to freeze.
And same with the food.
If you've got a dog that's a little bit stiff with either other animals or with people in the house when they're eating make sure they're in a space where.
They haven't got to put the back to a door because I think that stresses a lot of dogs.
Like you put, we tend to put balls up against a wall and the dog's looking around, looking at the doorway and, worried about what's happening behind them and they feel a little bit ambushed.
(10:59):
So making sure that They have that space, and time to have those resources on their own so that they have a predictable environment.
Resource guarding happens a lot because of that unpredictability of when we're gonna remove a resource.
And if we've got history of removing things, they can easily generalize that to anything they find reinforcing.
So even if we've been taking, a pen off them, or a piece of tissue, or a bit of paper, They might generalize that to another item like a chew or a food bowl.
(11:28):
we might start seeing that stiffness and stillness.
if we're not responding to that and we're continually putting 'em in an environment where they're starting to feel threatened and not feeling safe, it's that environment that needs to change first before we even think about doing any training Easily with management, we can go, don't worry, that's your space, that's your chew.
You go there.
This is your routine.
every single time you have that long lasting chew, you're gonna go to a mat area.
(11:50):
You can use a barrier if you want to, especially if you've got young kids.
That's something that is mandatory for me when working with young families.
regardless if there's any resource guarding the dog gets into the habit of going into a pend area away from the children so that they can have resources so that issue never develops, a hundred percent.
Do you see resource guarding a lot? in the salon? I would probably say more so their bodies.
(12:17):
Their nails guarding their feet.
tails as well.
With the salon, everything is individual, right? the way that I work is not.
New dog on table.
Do full groom.
It takes.
I need to learn about the dog builder relationship with the dog.
And get the dog to the point where they go, okay, you're a safe person.
That's nice.
All right, I'll let you touch that cookie monster.
(12:37):
Then I get a treat, I can't get a break.
it's those rest breaks in between.
When behavior develops, it's that trigger stacking, right? And that's what pushes the dog further and further over the threshold and trigger stacking will be an individual event, and these events can happen simultaneously or sparsed out.
So one of The biggest things with resource guarding that I've come across besides, environmental, is usually when puppies come from a breeder and they're all fed from the same bowl there's some amazing, articles on this, all these puppies are eating from the same bowl And some of them are tolerant, but some of them get pushed out.
(13:13):
Then they try and wiggle the way back in, and then they get pushed out again.
As they're developing that experience, they're deprived.
They don't get their full meal intake.
The other one pushed them away, and then some dogs learn to retreat and become more withdrawn because their personality is not as bold as others and other dogs.
Go, I'm hungry.
And they push past them and then well, puppies, not dogs, and they start to eat and they lo learned, that behavior gets what I need.
(13:41):
And what it comes down to with resource guarding and like Holly mentioned, whether it is food, a toy, a couch, it is not about actually necessarily the item.
It is about what that item means to the dog.
And that comes down to primitive wiring and survival brain.
(14:02):
It's a natural survival behavior, isn't it? It's a natural survival behavior.
The brain cannot distinguish the difference, and we are talking about the amygdala and all those wirings.
that part of the brain cannot distinguish what is real and what is not real, and it's that if I don't eat, I will die.
this toy brings me joy and I'm obviously projecting.
(14:22):
I'm not trying to humanize it, it's just so the audience can have a general idea of what I'm trying to express.
This toy makes me happy.
You're gonna take it mine? Nope nope.
people unintentionally due to outdated methods do silly things I'll just use my teacup as dramatic effect.
Someone told me if I put my hand in the food bowl, it will teach my dog to be tolerant.
(14:44):
And the example is, if you're sitting at a dinner table with your family, you have a wonderful relationship with your family.
My dad is the coolest dude on the planet, but he had this habit of my breakfast in the morning.
Or something nice at dinner because I would eat before them.
my parents ate later and he would walk past and steal a chip.
I would be like, dad, stop it.
(15:05):
That's resource guarding.
I love him dearly.
as a human being, I'm not gonna physically hurt him, but I'm cognitive enough to communicate what he's as.
It's because he stole my chip.
You see what I'm saying? And my behavior reflects resource guarding.
I might not have escalated it to the way dogs do, but I'm still being defensive over a chip on my plate.
(15:28):
So if my, and that's, and if you relate that to that advice where you go, okay, to teach your puppy to be tolerant, put your hand in the food bowl.
You stick your fingers or hands, and my food, I'm going to grumble because I'm saying, Hey, this is mine.
my brain is going, oh, taking food.
No.
You need that for survival.
my response is involuntary.
(15:49):
I can't help it because it's also so quick.
He genuinely just walks past then, because he had a predictable pattern of behavior, I would anticipate it.
And as he walked, I'd quickly put my hand over my plate and I'd go, haha, nice try.
But as a person who grew up with that it became a joke.
(16:09):
I can distinguish the difference.
I can still have enough control to manage my emotions within reason, depending on my day.
When it comes to a dog, when it comes to a puppy.
there's no distinguishing anything for them.
When they get from adolescence to adults, they have no more than a two to two and a half to 3-year-old child.
(16:31):
A child doesn't know what's right or wrong.
They don't understand why they can't eat chocolates at eight o'clock at night.
the dog doesn't understand why your hand is in the food bowl.
The dog is enjoying something.
They don't understand why you're taking it away.
They're sitting on a couch, which is a dry, safe, comfortable, warm warmth, brings you survival.
They dunno why you're trying to get them off or they're sleeping and they've got that experience of you.
(16:55):
They're sleeping, they're safe, and then all of a sudden you boot them off.
They go, okay, every time you come near me and I'm comfortable, you're gonna do something.
And then we have that predisposed genetic influence in goldies.
Funny enough, I see it a lot in Goldies.
You just work with it.
And that's when it comes back to what you said, that safety.
Because if they feel safe and they're not threatened, there's no need to react or respond that way.
(17:19):
I'm constantly reinforcing that safety and being consistent.
They can feel safe with you for example, if I have a fostering that's a resource guarder, we feed them separately.
We always feed new dogs separately, but I will deliberately walk from a distance and chuck something like a little piece of chicken or a little piece of cheese in so that my presence is something positive that's going to add, not take away.
(17:49):
I'm never going to put them in a position where they feel that what is precious to them is going to be removed, it will always be either added to or swapped for something that's of a higher value to them.
Yeah.
Holly, do you, what, just said there about Goldies, that's really interesting.
Do you see traits of resource guarding in some breeds more than others? Yeah, so it's interesting because I'm keeping records of all the cases that I have and my folders are getting so big because I'm having so many in a day.
(18:22):
the most common at the moment is cockapoos and poodle crosses.
Wow.
That doubt, and I, if I go through it, is six to 12 month old.
Cockapoos or poodle crosses, you kapos well.
And it's become consistent.
I go through it and I go, there's a real pattern here, of that behavior obviously poodles can be a bit high maintenance.
They can be quite sensitive.
(18:43):
I think they already have that sort of sensitivity to be in touch anyway.
I find, and they combine that with the cocka spaniel that obviously is trying to hold things in their mouths, same as any other good gun dog.
so you've got a bit of a perfect storm there of genetics.
The only issue I find with the genetic cause is that it can be one of those things where people are like, oh, I've got on Google.
I've typed in the Cockapoos are resource guard is therefore nothing I can do about it.
(19:07):
And it removes that accountability.
I've had that quite often recently, so I have to go through with them all the other potential causes.
Same as what you said it is that removal of resources that.
Is the massive trigger messing with their food.
they're already starting to resource guard and we're allowing them opportunities to steal things and then actively removing them.
(19:27):
Building this negative history of they get an item, we're forcefully removing it.
And it makes me picture a King Kong with the dinosaur.
And it's like prying the jaws open.
That's what I always picture.
people start.
Using things like punishment, even though pain is a potential cause.
And hormonal fluctuations is a huge trigger.
(19:49):
Especially in females.
As soon as they get close to a season, you can guarantee you're gonna see some resource guarding behaviors.
Potentially even more in some of you golden dog breeds.
And some of you and mixed breeds, if you've got a mixed breed, their behavior's gonna be a bit more unpredictable.
You're not quite sure which genetics is gonna be dominant.
But you definitely see a pattern there.
with those hormonal changes, I had a case recently of a lady that said my dog started resource guarding.
(20:14):
Everything like locations, it's controlling the movements of the other dog.
She's become reactive, completely changed.
the only common issue was she'd recently been spayed and spayed too early.
and had actually got a persistent phantom pregnancy.
all these issues had come from that.
that's something we've gotta be careful of, that we're spaying to treat behavior like this, you do it at the wrong time.
(20:39):
During that phantom pregnancy, 'cause all dogs do experience a phantom pregnancy, whether that's, overt or where you don't see any symptoms apart from maybe resource guarding, reactivity, and anxiety, you do it at the wrong time.
You've got a persistent phantom pregnancy.
after spay, you've still got hormones triggering.
Resource guardian behaviors, and this can go years without being diagnosed it's now being called the silent killer by vets because they're showing aggression towards their guardians.
(21:07):
The guardians dunno where it's come from and what to do.
They spayed them.
That's not worked.
so a lot of dogs unfortunately end up being euthanized That was the initial trigger.
what you said there, goes back to what you mentioned earlier about education and helping trainers, because to have that insight is so valuable to identify it, to move forward, to prevent that situation of going to the vet.
(21:32):
It's.
so important.
it was really sad when I discovered it because I was always under the impression years ago that phantom pregnancies was just, a select few, realizing that they actually all have those prolactin increases, which trigger milk production and the nesting behaviors.
But not all dogs get those.
The fact that we're still routinely, spaying females.
And people are doing it for these issues then finding they've got a dog they cannot control, they don't feel safe with.
(21:56):
And sometimes they feel it's beyond any trainer or behaviorist capability to deal with because they feel like they can't micromanage their home life.
And so it was devastating to me really to figure that out.
That was a massive cause of this particular issue.
And then there's no education out there for people to go, oh, do you know what if we'd realize this as soon as this spay had happened? We could have treated it straight away.
(22:17):
The problem with, the hormonal triggers of behavior is there's always that learned component.
So even if we say, yep, neurological changes due to the, adolescent brain or hormonal fluctuations, if the behavior is rehearsed and they still don't have that emotional safety in the home.
Our behavior can become, learned adaptive.
It becomes their coping strategy.
even after they've matured past the adolescent brain, or there's no more hormone fluctuations, they can still have the resource guarding, so they're not necessarily gonna grow out of it.
(22:47):
phantom pregnancies in a lot of people's minds are literally, the dog gathering some teddy bears and taking them to their bed to mother them, rather than the resource guarding and severe symptoms that you can see, because they're really struggling at that point.
I think it's really important that we spend a few minutes talking about.
(23:12):
What we would advise for, a guardian who is struggling with resource guarding.
before we do that, I want to make it perfectly clear that we would absolutely not advise using.
Any intimidation, any punishment, any force, because anything like that can really exacerbate and make this worse, but also damage the trust and emotional safety, which are the two key pieces that are going to help stop the resource guarding.
(23:49):
So positive methods.
Incredibly important every time you are dealing with a dog.
However, with resource guarding particularly, we really want to make sure that everything we are doing is paying into that dog's emotional bank account rather than making a withdrawal from it.
(24:10):
can you tell us a bit more, Holly, about how you would, advise someone who's struggling with a dog that's resource guarding? Yeah, so I've had a few cases recently where spraying water in their face was used.
with a lot of dogs, they anticipate the punishment, whether that be grabbing hold of them, wrenching their mouth open, being sprayed, so they run under a surface where they feel safer.
(24:34):
that is another sign they're trying to find that safety.
So run under a table and then guard the item, or they run into a corner of a room.
When we are dealing with resource guarding, we've gotta try and figure out whether trust issues are broken down, how we've been responding.
'cause we are so focused on the dog's behavior, we forget about our own.
So I'm asking the client What has been the history of the resource guarding? Go back and think about how you've responded.
(25:03):
Including things like talking to the dog, eye contact, cornering them, pointing at them, shouting at them, so that we have an understanding of how they perceive their body language, Emily said earlier, it happens in so many different contexts.
We could get it wrong.
So if I'm saying, oh, we need to do swap training, we need to do this.
If we're doing it in a room where the dog's got a history of resource guarding, so example the dining room where the dining table is and we're doing the training there, the dog might already be close to the threshold.
(25:29):
we don't wanna do it somewhere where we already know they're feeling threatened.
We need to think about which environment is suitable before we start, how our behavior, our body language is being perceived.
even if we need to get an item off them.
They're so good at Twigging when they're trying to trick them.
So people go, oh, come and look at this toy and lead them away.
(25:52):
Direction obviously is important.
If we've got something really dangerous so they've got paracetamol or something, we need to get that off them.
The problem with going in there and going, you've got it, you can't have that and taking it off them is they can swallow faster.
Whereas, if we're trying to use redirection and saying, come and get this is great.
You lead them away and then you run into the item.
You are competing with them.
And that's exactly what the problem is.
You're competing for resources and there's that anxiety.
(26:15):
So one of the big, along with the emotional safety, one of the things I've been using recently, which is very simple, is the counting game, which is introduced by Rag Patel.
this is something that I ask people to do in an emergency situation when they need to get the item.
But they wanna make sure that we're not practicing the same patterns of behavior that are causing that perceived threat.
(26:39):
For those that don't know what the counting game is, it was actually designed as a recall game.
It's a pattern game whereby you count up and down with your hand and you are placing treats down as you count and the dog comes over for those treats, you move further away and you begin counting again.
The dog comes over and is catching up with you and you're trying to stay ahead of them.
Of course that way it's hands off handling of them following you away from the resource, being able to lead them out of that room.
(27:06):
The problem with this is if you, play the counting game only for this scenario.
It can become a predictor of removing the resource.
So the way you do it is gonna have to be very careful it's very nonchalant let's play this game, move them away, continue to play with them, make them forget the resource, don't go straight in there.
(27:27):
And then after 10, 50 minutes by, and they've gone, they've redirected to another toy or something, then very calmly, nonchalantly go and get the resource and remove it.
And that's what I do in an emergency situation.
In some cases, if it's something I don't want them to have, but it's not going to kill them, it might be a case of can I let this go and just leave the room if it's a tissue? Empty packet of crisps.
(27:51):
It's I, am I creating more risk of them injecting that by going over and removing it? And am I jeopardizing their emotional safety even more? Every time you have a situation where resource guarding, it's weighing up, is it safe to lead them with it? Is it really valuable? If it's an emergency, how can I effectively redirect them without that becoming a predictor? How do I make them feel safer and lead that resource? how do I make sure that the situation doesn't happen again? So how can I change the environment? Something as simple as keeping your bathroom door shut so they can't get in the bathroom bins.
(28:29):
I know so many gun dog owners and trainers that don't have a bin in the kitchen.
It's just fact of life.
You just have it somewhere else.
It's either in a cupboard or a baby gate around it.
Exactly.
We used to have a bin under the stair cupboard.
we had Ty, who was a rotty boy, and he came in to rescue, 20 kilos underweight.
(28:51):
He was, such a special boy.
And he was incredible.
We went on and did animal assisted therapy for years with children with special educational needs at the local primary school.
he was always food obsessed because he had been so hungry at certain times in his life.
we used to have the bin in the cupboard under the stairs and a mini.
(29:14):
Chest freezer, like a half size one.
one day I came home and realized that he could now open that door.
It was bolted.
he could actually open the door and get in.
He dragged the freezer out into the middle of the kitchen to get to something that was behind it.
Everywhere.
He was just the coolest dude, one day I heard these strange noises in the back garden and looked out the window he pinched the kid's skateboard and was skateboarding in the back garden.
(29:45):
52 kilo rottweiler.
He was the best.
It's another thing as well, isn't it, you've got dogs that.
They learn that resource guarding gets 'em, that men stimulation, they're, they almost get a dopamine hit.
Yeah.
I had a recent case where the dogs like actively bringing them the resource so they'd be confused because they're bringing them the resource, showing it to them, and then they're like, come get me.
(30:09):
They're going after 'em growling and snarling they said, I don't get it.
don't quite understand.
I said, it's quite rewarding for them.
They've learned that even if it's negative attention, it's attention.
They're scavenging.
It's a scavenging behavior.
They're getting the interaction they want and when you ask the context that a lot of resource going happens, it's when someone's working from home on a laptop, they've gotten something because they're bored, shown it to them and then said, follow me.
(30:33):
So part of your management is making sure you've got opportunities for 'em to scavenge so they feel the need to try and gain that entertainment somewhere else.
When it comes to the attention seeking, it's more in the sense of that connection.
They're trying to get that connection of something and that dopamine hit because it will be such subtle things that the brain enjoys.
(31:00):
And it will be, I want this toy conflicting.
I don't really wanna give it to you.
Go to mum.
Mum gets up.
Connection.
Don't want you to have it.
Oh yeah, but you got up.
Oh, then the brain goes, yes, connection.
That feels great.
Let's do it again.
And it's that unintentional reinforcement of behavior and self-reinforcing for the dog nothing is ever done.
(31:25):
deliberately, because our emotions drive our behaviors.
When you work with a dog, no matter what, their struggle is prevention is better than cure prevention gets you into a habit and habits, once you're in a habit, are hard to break.
It becomes a normal part of life and.
It will obviously depend on what stage of life your dog is in, but to prevent this from happening from day the puppy enters your home.
(31:55):
When you provide them their food, sometimes you can't just go, oh, here's all the enrichment.
That takes time.
Everything is a step-by-step process and you go along with them and increase the criteria as they develop more emotionally and they get more maturity.
at a very basic foundation level, when you give them their meals, you can.
Some people will argue from a bowl or enrichment, but for tiny babies, I just do bowl.
(32:17):
I do the enrichment later 'cause I just need them to adjust into the home.
They already had a bowl at the breeder.
Let's not due too much too soon.
And you give half of their food in the bowl, then while they're eating, you add the other half.
So your hand is the predictor of good things.
You give not taketh away, and that helps form that association and that's associative learning.
(32:38):
Whenever you come near me, I get more.
Oh, I love it when you come near, any good things happen and it's a predictable pattern that you are.
Continuously repeating every single day, and you use the meal times as opportunities.
People are really time poor in this day and age.
You don't actively have to go, oh, I didn't do this with my dog today.
I need to help them learn Do it in their meals.
(32:59):
You're feeding them anyway.
Two birds, one stone.
Yeah, and then it's that with children and the management.
Holly absolutely love that.
The dog, from whenever age you can do it, get them exposed and used to being in their pen.
It is their safe place because prevention is better than cure.
parents can't actively supervise their children and their dog, or they're making dinner, or someone else is happening and they're engaged The child goes near the dog's toy, the dog already sends a million messages and then the dog nips the child and they go, oh, they came out of nowhere.
(33:30):
And it is traumatic and it is serious.
like Holly said, that G is so important and it's teaching your children and also modeling behavior.
If you see something and your children are of age of learning this.
Oh no, he's got your toy.
I know that's really upsetting.
But he doesn't know the difference.
Hold on, let me show you, because if the toy's gonna be broken, it's gonna be broken.
(33:53):
What you need to do there is teach a life skill.
That's really important because You're not gonna be around.
And they need to learn that as well.
like you said, Joe, it's got to be a higher value.
And like you said, Holly, it's not about rushing, it's about taking your time and picking your battles.
And we go, oh no, that's my very expensive shoe.
And you've either already played that game in separate scenarios or these different ways of handling it, or you do a positive sound interrupter, every dog knows the sound of a bag.
(34:20):
It depends on their emotional association with that.
But sometimes I just use sounds and I don't talk at all, I get a treat bag shake it, toss some treats on the floor and walk away randomly throughout the day.
So that sound is conditioned that the dogs, they hear that sound Pavlov the bell and they spit it out.
'cause that is more reinforcing 'cause that is a higher dopamine.
(34:42):
What they're doing.
I say, sorry.
Sorry Joe.
No, you're go.
I was gonna say, what you were saying about the dopamine hit and that classical conditioning in emergency as well, you could use the doorbell.
Yeah.
Get the doorbell, the dogs lead in an emergency.
'cause obviously guests.
They drop what they've got, they run over, provide.
You haven't got a job that's terrified of guests.
That is, or the lead.
(35:03):
that's a good thing.
That's excitable for 'em.
It's a easy redirection.
Even if you can't, if you've got a job that guards and you can't get past them, and they're blocking your access to leave, then you can play the doorbell on your phone.
So good.
Is it just as an extra that you can't, that's been awesome my day.
Yeah.
Love that.
It's aner in emergency anyway.
Yeah.
because that panic ingestion is so dangerous not only do you have the risk of a dead dog, you then have a traumatized dog who's had to go to the vet, depending if they're able to get the dog to induce vomiting.
(35:32):
If they can't, they've gotta open them up.
ring the doorbell.
That's the most evil in this scenario because that conditioning, shifts, the brain's focus.
The dog is engaged in something that higher stimulus happens and the dog is able to reengage with the other thing.
What we work on, as with all dogs that come in is ready, steady catch, they don't need to catch it, it just goes on the floor, that's fine.
(35:59):
we're using their nose like find, and we are finding it with them, they learn the word ready.
if I said come, they'd be like, what you want me to, if I say ready, they're there.
Hey, what's going on? What's happening? I love that word.
Ready.
if anyone's got something they shouldn't, apart from Charlie who had.
(36:20):
My husband's passport while I was on a Zoom call I could see him, he was literally like, I like it.
the word ready just means something really exciting is gonna happen.
We also play a down game as well.
whoever goes down first gets a treat and then the next one gets a treat and the next one gets a treat.
(36:41):
Yeah.
And that's just so much fun.
But it means that when we're out and about, we start introducing it in the home first and then gradually build up to, outside in more and more distractions.
And the word down means something really cool as well.
It's wow, this is awesome.
Yeah.
So as long as we're having fun and, we're using positive methods to redirect their attention or we're adding value, We're going over time again every week.
(37:12):
No, we're not 43, not 45.
We're fine.
We've got time.
Busy backstage.
Oh no, and I've forgotten now.
I was gonna say, like you'll let you think about your point.
I've know there's been a bit of controversy over the drop and swap thing as well for resource guarding.
(37:33):
And I think that's because the emphasis is on that task orientation rather than the trust issue, which I totally understand.
I think with drop, the issue is it's been used so many times in such negative situations that it's been poisoned.
The dog's got a negative association with the word drop now.
'cause you're going drop.
Drop.
But it's a threat then.
and Then you're going drop with a nice toy and a treat and the drop.
(37:54):
And it just doesn't work.
So if I've got a history with a client where they've been using drop and then it's been poisoned, I will teach a swap instead.
But I do this with items that they don't resource guard.
And it's outside the context of, no value items.
Absolutely.
and it might be with items I didn't necessarily have yet.
So if I'm working with a very severe resource, guarder, I might place a treat on the ground, hold it, show it to them, but keep my hand nearby and say, swap.
(38:18):
It's just to teach them the concept of that's there.
You could take it if you wanted to, but I'm gonna keep my hand there just in case, and I'm gonna push a different reward towards you.
You're not gonna get that one.
To teach them that concept and then work up the hierarchy of items.
So that might be from treats to toys and to tissues But I would do that.
Outside of the context of your resource guarding and not go from doing that in one session and then using it straight away for resource guarding, because they're not gonna be prepared enough.
(38:44):
They need to build that skill level up, There's a lot of posts on social media about being cautious, about focusing so much on teaching, swap and drop.
When they are easily poisoned, they easily associate it with resource guarding scenarios, and that then becomes a predictor, just like your counting game or your doorbell.
We have to be cautious about how we do these things.
Context in individual matters.
I think it's really important that we discuss, whether or not we're going over time, going back to what you were saying, Holly, about the poodle mixes and the six to 12 month mark.
(39:15):
adolescence is your kind of jam.
what is going on with them in that six to 12 month period? That means you are potentially seeing that increase in resource gardening.
you've got the hormonal fluctuations that we've discussed.
you've got, More threat signaling in the brain because the PA axis, which is your sort of body's stress response, is hyperactive joint adolescence.
(39:41):
So you've got greater stress response and longer recovery times from stress.
So if you've got a dog that's trigger stress from, whatever stress activity they've had over there, and then you've gone too close, to remove a resource, that's maybe when they're really chronically stressed and we see resource guarding.
You've also got fluctuations in serotonin, and their sleep patterns are starting to change.
(40:02):
You also have a poor fear extinction, so their brain's ability to extinguish fear memories becomes inhibited as well.
For example, if you've got a dog where you give them a chew and you've tried to take it off them.
They remember that quite well.
But then the next day when you don't take off them, they don't then go, oh, do you know what? She didn't take it off me today.
(40:24):
Therefore, I'm gonna get rid of that fearful memory of when she did.
They hold on to that fearful memory and it becomes very powerful.
No matter how many times we try and change that.
And so you've got a dog that's more sensitive to stress, poorer impulse control.
the inhibitor in neurons in the brain, are less than the excitatory neurons.
(40:45):
You've got very excitable behavior, less impulse control, just more impulsive behaviors, more emotional.
Choices that they make because they haven't got that, cognitive control to regulate those emotions.
So you've got a perfect storm of hormones and neurological changes that are making 'em chronically, stressed and more threatened by anything they perceive that's gonna be negative for them.
(41:08):
there's a lot of different things that I've considered, which is why we'll definitely do more on that subject in adolescent dogs.
'cause that seems to be the timeframe of when it happens.
It's that shift from the brain after the critical period to the adolescent period, the brain shifts and what I like to say, it's not so open-minded.
It's not as open to new novel experiences.
(41:29):
Everything can be deemed a bit more threatening because of the fluctuations between serotonin and cortisol You've also got that little, area called the nucleus accumbens, which is where they process rewards.
that becomes hypersensitive to rewards, but less sensitive to punishments.
So you've got people using more aversive training and having to escalate their aversive training.
And the dog's no, this is more rewarding.
(41:50):
I'm not listening to you.
they're gonna seek out novel items.
So things they think, oh, this is super interesting 'cause I'm more interested in novel things now I don't want you to take this from me.
I'm hyper, sensitive to stress.
And then again, you've got the perfect ingredients for Resource Garden to happen in that period of development.
Oh, I could listen to you all day.
I know.
(42:15):
Absolutely fascinating.
Thank you so much for joining us this evening, or morning, or afternoon.
Wow.
You've got some exciting stuff coming up, haven't you, Holly, do you wanna tell people a bit more about what you've got going on and how they can get in touch with you before we let you go? Yeah, so I am, very focused on adolescent at the moment, that has been my focus for the last, I wanna say two years now.
(42:43):
I've been working on a book on the subject alongside all the projects on that.
everything under the sun at the moment, it's coming into, it's oh, resource guarding happens at this stage.
You've gotta put that in there.
find some pregnancies, go in there.
that's gotta go in there.
Brain development it's all making so many connections at the moment.
you can reach me on portals.com
or on Facebook, which is just portals again.
I have a dog dilemmas, positive supports, positive training and support group people can join.
(43:07):
I'm in there as well.
I post in there as well.
Fabulous.
Thank you so much, Holly.
Oh my goodness.
Amazing.
Wow, that book.
I message Holly all the time is it done yet? Hurry up.
Hurry.
But Yeah.
Absolutely.
And it just never ends.
It's all, it's 'cause there's so much.
(43:30):
I know.
I know.
I know.
But canine principles is having a writer retreat in October because so many of us are, in the process of writing, another book or our first books.
And oh my goodness, this is amazing.
It is gonna be epic.
Jay Den, who was our guest last episode, and I are hosting it.
(43:53):
We're both published authors, Amazon number one, bestselling, and also focusing around why you live so far away.
Yeah, it's gonna be epic.
It really is.
It is being held at a dog friendly venue as well.
(44:15):
Lot of space and land around to chill.
super exciting.
canine principles also has an adolescent.
dog course, in the pipeline being written by Holly Leak.
So if you've enjoyed this episode and learn lots, please do keep your eyes peeled or pop an email to info@canineprinciples.com
(44:37):
and we'll add you to the list to be notified when that course goes live.
I feel like this podcast, my inner geek or outer geek.
It's just so happy The experience is just so good and everyone who's been on, and I know it's only five episodes, Never stop learning, ever.
(45:00):
It doesn't matter who you are, what you've studied, what you've not studied, where you are in your life.
This industry, you never, ever stop learning.
I have just loved everyone who has come on here.
Each individual dog teaches us something different, our guests are jaw dropping next season.
We have got some exciting stuff on, but we won't spoil.
(45:24):
We won't do any spoilers.
We'll let it dangle, but we are having.
A one week break, and we're back with season two, the beginning of June, first Wednesday in June at seven 30 BST, or if you are in New Zealand, first Thursday in June.
(45:46):
keep your eyes peeled for the announcements of the guest speakers.
If you have enjoyed this podcast, please do share with all your friends, all your networks, let them know about the Dog Expert podcast and we will keep on inviting the most wonderful people like Holly onto the podcast.
(46:08):
if you'd like to come on the podcast or you'd like us to discuss a specific subject, please let us know in the comments.
Yes, we're here to help and the whole reason, for us doing the podcast is to help people to help dogs.
As ethically as possible.
So please do let us know if there's anything you want us to discuss.
(46:32):
end of season one.
Bye from me.
Bye from me.
Thank you so much everyone.
Have a wonderful time.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to the Dog Expert Podcast, the podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
(46:53):
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(00:32):
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(00:53):
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Hello everybody.
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(01:20):
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it's just been so much fun.
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(02:09):
So this evening we have got a really, misunderstood, topic sometimes.
We are going to be talking about resource guarding and we have got the perfect guest coming on to talk about resource guarding.
We have got the fabulous Holly leak Holly has been in my world for a few years now, through her work with the ISCP and also canine principles.
(02:41):
Holly is just one of those people who makes your life better just by being alive.
She genuinely is.
let me tell you a little bit about Holly.
She tutors for the ISCP.
She tutors for canine principles.
Holly has built a fantastic business that helps her local community with dog walking and training.
(03:04):
She's worked as a class instructor for many years, but now does more behavioral consults, one-to-one consults, and has been doing that for many years too.
Her specialism is around adolescence, around kids, around dogs.
She's very passionate about supporting families with their dogs, and.
(03:28):
As well as her behavioral consult.
She also works for Heal the Dogs, delivering behavioral support and advice to dog guardians via virtual consults.
So I feel like we need a drum roll for Holly.
Shall we try and do a little? Welcome, Holly.
(03:55):
Welcome to the Dog Expert Podcast.
Oh, thank you for having me.
Thank you for coming out to play this evening's topic that you are coming on to talk about is really tricky to deal with.
I'll share later on, a bit more about, a few of the dogs I've fostered over the years who've had challenges around resource guarding.
(04:18):
But do you want to tell everyone a bit more about you and what you do? I know I've given a little intro and, said what I think, but do you want to say in your own words? Yeah, I dabble in quite a lot of things.
I have far too many jobs basically in the industry.
Everyone asks me like, I thought you were working for such and I thought you were doing that, but I dabble in so much.
(04:39):
Primarily I'm working as a behavior consultant and doing virtual consults.
So how that works is they're every 20 to 30 minutes and they book back to back.
So it's a big rollout of value consultations quite constantly.
So I get a broad range of cases, including resource guarding.
you start to see.
Patterns quite quickly because you're having so many consultations, such a short time.
(05:04):
But yeah, I work as a one-to-one dog trainer as well, so that's adolescents, puppies, reactivity as well.
I'm a bit picky and choosy who I work with now because my plates just go full.
So in that privileged position now where I can pick and choose what cases I really wanna take on.
And then as you said, work as a tutor, which I absolutely love.
helping dogs one-to-one is brilliant, but you can help more dogs by helping more trainers.
(05:27):
You've got a greater reach, haven't you? So it's a different avenue of, improving canine welfare.
So I think probably the best place for us to start about resource guarding is to actually clarify for anyone listening who isn't quite sure what resource guarding is, what we mean by that term.
(05:52):
for a lot of people they picture the snarling growling dog with the bone in the corner and even extreme biting as well, and that's what they term resource, guarding But actually there are non-aggressive forms of resource guarding and that's probably.
The subtle signs we see before it escalates.
resource guarding is that anxiety and defense behavior around a perceived resource.
(06:13):
So that might be, a chew food, a bowl of food, a treat.
It can be location, so they're bad.
The sofa, your bed, and occasionally people as well.
And what we often see with many resource guarders is they actually become sensitive to touch as well.
So they even guard their own bodies.
They don't like to have their pores touched and we see that connection as well.
(06:35):
primarily what people see as resource guarding when they notice it is that sort of, growling, snarling behavior.
But there's a lot more to it, the initial symptoms we'd be looking for.
Are that freezing over a resource when you close the whale lie? Yeah.
Yeah.
That sort of, or maybe even with some dogs, it's that speeding up of eating, yes.
(06:56):
Go faster getting into their breathing really fast and they're getting stressed people don't notice that thing.
Oh, I've just got a really greedy dog.
But actually they've walked through the kitchen where they're eating a bowl and they're panicked a little bit, So there's actually a lot of more subtle signs of what resource guarding is, it's that anxiety, seeing your proximity as a perceived threat, and then how that dog's demeanor changes, when you get closer to them or whatever.
(07:19):
Change and context is so important with that because they might have a very loose demeanor.
And when I say loose, I mean it's almost like a.
An okay or floppy body language in the sense.
And as soon as you are in close proximity, it starts as relaxed and you can actually see that panic is starting and their body starts to ridge, and their breathing slows down, the head dips, ears go back.
(07:47):
You can see the white under their eyes.
And it's that very subtle dip, And you also see as well dogs sometimes you enter the room or sit on the sofa next to them and they're like I don't wanna sit next to you when I've got this chew or this toy.
I'm gonna take it over there.
Yes.
And that's another subtle sign that people miss quite often.
and respecting that as communication is so important rather than thinking it's funny, or trying to take it away from the dog.
(08:13):
Ultimately dogs guard.
Things because they're not feeling emotionally safe, which is, I know I bang on about this every week, but it does boil down to emotional safety and confidence, and it can stem from past experiences.
It can.
Stem from a lack of trust in humans as a whole, not necessarily just one individual human.
(08:40):
It can stem from a lack of trust in other dogs.
And it can even come from a genetic sort of, background.
ultimately it's a defensive behavior because they believe that something that's valuable to them or something that they've put a value on is.
(09:03):
Potentially going to be taken away.
So that range from the body freezing all the way through to biting, to saying back off, away from this, it could be anywhere in that range that you are seeing that emotional security displayed.
(09:25):
Definitely.
So if someone watching.
Or listening into the podcast, was concerned that they had seen some of the more subtle signs that you've spoken about this evening, and they hadn't necessarily picked up on that as potentially, resource guarding before.
(09:49):
What advice would you give them? It needs to be, that recognition.
So just like reactivity, there's that threshold level.
what sort of distance is triggering that, stillness and freezing, and what can I change in the environment to achieve that emotional safety.
So for example.
(10:11):
You often find that people go, oh, my dog doesn't resource guard, but you've got two dogs next to each other eating from their bowls, and they're eating really fast, and then they're worried about what the other one's got.
if we're changing.
Our environment so that the dog feels safe when they have resources that can make a massive difference on its own without any training to say, Hey, this is your designated area to have your chew.
This is your bed or your mat.
(10:32):
I'm gonna put you in a place that's not highly trafficked while you have that, so you don't feel the need to freeze.
And same with the food.
If you've got a dog that's a little bit stiff with either other animals or with people in the house when they're eating make sure they're in a space where.
They haven't got to put the back to a door because I think that stresses a lot of dogs.
Like you put, we tend to put balls up against a wall and the dog's looking around, looking at the doorway and, worried about what's happening behind them and they feel a little bit ambushed.
(10:59):
So making sure that They have that space, and time to have those resources on their own so that they have a predictable environment.
Resource guarding happens a lot because of that unpredictability of when we're gonna remove a resource.
And if we've got history of removing things, they can easily generalize that to anything they find reinforcing.
So even if we've been taking, a pen off them, or a piece of tissue, or a bit of paper, They might generalize that to another item like a chew or a food bowl.
(11:28):
we might start seeing that stiffness and stillness.
if we're not responding to that and we're continually putting 'em in an environment where they're starting to feel threatened and not feeling safe, it's that environment that needs to change first before we even think about doing any training Easily with management, we can go, don't worry, that's your space, that's your chew.
You go there.
This is your routine.
every single time you have that long lasting chew, you're gonna go to a mat area.
(11:50):
You can use a barrier if you want to, especially if you've got young kids.
That's something that is mandatory for me when working with young families.
regardless if there's any resource guarding the dog gets into the habit of going into a pend area away from the children so that they can have resources so that issue never develops, a hundred percent.
Do you see resource guarding a lot? in the salon? I would probably say more so their bodies.
(12:17):
Their nails guarding their feet.
tails as well.
With the salon, everything is individual, right? the way that I work is not.
New dog on table.
Do full groom.
It takes.
I need to learn about the dog builder relationship with the dog.
And get the dog to the point where they go, okay, you're a safe person.
That's nice.
All right, I'll let you touch that cookie monster.
(12:37):
Then I get a treat, I can't get a break.
it's those rest breaks in between.
When behavior develops, it's that trigger stacking, right? And that's what pushes the dog further and further over the threshold and trigger stacking will be an individual event, and these events can happen simultaneously or sparsed out.
So one of The biggest things with resource guarding that I've come across besides, environmental, is usually when puppies come from a breeder and they're all fed from the same bowl there's some amazing, articles on this, all these puppies are eating from the same bowl And some of them are tolerant, but some of them get pushed out.
(13:13):
Then they try and wiggle the way back in, and then they get pushed out again.
As they're developing that experience, they're deprived.
They don't get their full meal intake.
The other one pushed them away, and then some dogs learn to retreat and become more withdrawn because their personality is not as bold as others and other dogs.
Go, I'm hungry.
And they push past them and then well, puppies, not dogs, and they start to eat and they lo learned, that behavior gets what I need.
(13:41):
And what it comes down to with resource guarding and like Holly mentioned, whether it is food, a toy, a couch, it is not about actually necessarily the item.
It is about what that item means to the dog.
And that comes down to primitive wiring and survival brain.
(14:02):
It's a natural survival behavior, isn't it? It's a natural survival behavior.
The brain cannot distinguish the difference, and we are talking about the amygdala and all those wirings.
that part of the brain cannot distinguish what is real and what is not real, and it's that if I don't eat, I will die.
this toy brings me joy and I'm obviously projecting.
(14:22):
I'm not trying to humanize it, it's just so the audience can have a general idea of what I'm trying to express.
This toy makes me happy.
You're gonna take it mine? Nope nope.
people unintentionally due to outdated methods do silly things I'll just use my teacup as dramatic effect.
Someone told me if I put my hand in the food bowl, it will teach my dog to be tolerant.
(14:44):
And the example is, if you're sitting at a dinner table with your family, you have a wonderful relationship with your family.
My dad is the coolest dude on the planet, but he had this habit of my breakfast in the morning.
Or something nice at dinner because I would eat before them.
my parents ate later and he would walk past and steal a chip.
I would be like, dad, stop it.
(15:05):
That's resource guarding.
I love him dearly.
as a human being, I'm not gonna physically hurt him, but I'm cognitive enough to communicate what he's as.
It's because he stole my chip.
You see what I'm saying? And my behavior reflects resource guarding.
I might not have escalated it to the way dogs do, but I'm still being defensive over a chip on my plate.
(15:28):
So if my, and that's, and if you relate that to that advice where you go, okay, to teach your puppy to be tolerant, put your hand in the food bowl.
You stick your fingers or hands, and my food, I'm going to grumble because I'm saying, Hey, this is mine.
my brain is going, oh, taking food.
No.
You need that for survival.
my response is involuntary.
(15:49):
I can't help it because it's also so quick.
He genuinely just walks past then, because he had a predictable pattern of behavior, I would anticipate it.
And as he walked, I'd quickly put my hand over my plate and I'd go, haha, nice try.
But as a person who grew up with that it became a joke.
(16:09):
I can distinguish the difference.
I can still have enough control to manage my emotions within reason, depending on my day.
When it comes to a dog, when it comes to a puppy.
there's no distinguishing anything for them.
When they get from adolescence to adults, they have no more than a two to two and a half to 3-year-old child.
(16:31):
A child doesn't know what's right or wrong.
They don't understand why they can't eat chocolates at eight o'clock at night.
the dog doesn't understand why your hand is in the food bowl.
The dog is enjoying something.
They don't understand why you're taking it away.
They're sitting on a couch, which is a dry, safe, comfortable, warm warmth, brings you survival.
They dunno why you're trying to get them off or they're sleeping and they've got that experience of you.
(16:55):
They're sleeping, they're safe, and then all of a sudden you boot them off.
They go, okay, every time you come near me and I'm comfortable, you're gonna do something.
And then we have that predisposed genetic influence in goldies.
Funny enough, I see it a lot in Goldies.
You just work with it.
And that's when it comes back to what you said, that safety.
Because if they feel safe and they're not threatened, there's no need to react or respond that way.
(17:19):
I'm constantly reinforcing that safety and being consistent.
They can feel safe with you for example, if I have a fostering that's a resource guarder, we feed them separately.
We always feed new dogs separately, but I will deliberately walk from a distance and chuck something like a little piece of chicken or a little piece of cheese in so that my presence is something positive that's going to add, not take away.
(17:49):
I'm never going to put them in a position where they feel that what is precious to them is going to be removed, it will always be either added to or swapped for something that's of a higher value to them.
Yeah.
Holly, do you, what, just said there about Goldies, that's really interesting.
Do you see traits of resource guarding in some breeds more than others? Yeah, so it's interesting because I'm keeping records of all the cases that I have and my folders are getting so big because I'm having so many in a day.
(18:22):
the most common at the moment is cockapoos and poodle crosses.
Wow.
That doubt, and I, if I go through it, is six to 12 month old.
Cockapoos or poodle crosses, you kapos well.
And it's become consistent.
I go through it and I go, there's a real pattern here, of that behavior obviously poodles can be a bit high maintenance.
They can be quite sensitive.
(18:43):
I think they already have that sort of sensitivity to be in touch anyway.
I find, and they combine that with the cocka spaniel that obviously is trying to hold things in their mouths, same as any other good gun dog.
so you've got a bit of a perfect storm there of genetics.
The only issue I find with the genetic cause is that it can be one of those things where people are like, oh, I've got on Google.
I've typed in the Cockapoos are resource guard is therefore nothing I can do about it.
(19:07):
And it removes that accountability.
I've had that quite often recently, so I have to go through with them all the other potential causes.
Same as what you said it is that removal of resources that.
Is the massive trigger messing with their food.
they're already starting to resource guard and we're allowing them opportunities to steal things and then actively removing them.
(19:27):
Building this negative history of they get an item, we're forcefully removing it.
And it makes me picture a King Kong with the dinosaur.
And it's like prying the jaws open.
That's what I always picture.
people start.
Using things like punishment, even though pain is a potential cause.
And hormonal fluctuations is a huge trigger.
(19:49):
Especially in females.
As soon as they get close to a season, you can guarantee you're gonna see some resource guarding behaviors.
Potentially even more in some of you golden dog breeds.
And some of you and mixed breeds, if you've got a mixed breed, their behavior's gonna be a bit more unpredictable.
You're not quite sure which genetics is gonna be dominant.
But you definitely see a pattern there.
with those hormonal changes, I had a case recently of a lady that said my dog started resource guarding.
(20:14):
Everything like locations, it's controlling the movements of the other dog.
She's become reactive, completely changed.
the only common issue was she'd recently been spayed and spayed too early.
and had actually got a persistent phantom pregnancy.
all these issues had come from that.
that's something we've gotta be careful of, that we're spaying to treat behavior like this, you do it at the wrong time.
(20:39):
During that phantom pregnancy, 'cause all dogs do experience a phantom pregnancy, whether that's, overt or where you don't see any symptoms apart from maybe resource guarding, reactivity, and anxiety, you do it at the wrong time.
You've got a persistent phantom pregnancy.
after spay, you've still got hormones triggering.
Resource guardian behaviors, and this can go years without being diagnosed it's now being called the silent killer by vets because they're showing aggression towards their guardians.
(21:07):
The guardians dunno where it's come from and what to do.
They spayed them.
That's not worked.
so a lot of dogs unfortunately end up being euthanized That was the initial trigger.
what you said there, goes back to what you mentioned earlier about education and helping trainers, because to have that insight is so valuable to identify it, to move forward, to prevent that situation of going to the vet.
(21:32):
It's.
so important.
it was really sad when I discovered it because I was always under the impression years ago that phantom pregnancies was just, a select few, realizing that they actually all have those prolactin increases, which trigger milk production and the nesting behaviors.
But not all dogs get those.
The fact that we're still routinely, spaying females.
And people are doing it for these issues then finding they've got a dog they cannot control, they don't feel safe with.
(21:56):
And sometimes they feel it's beyond any trainer or behaviorist capability to deal with because they feel like they can't micromanage their home life.
And so it was devastating to me really to figure that out.
That was a massive cause of this particular issue.
And then there's no education out there for people to go, oh, do you know what if we'd realize this as soon as this spay had happened? We could have treated it straight away.
(22:17):
The problem with, the hormonal triggers of behavior is there's always that learned component.
So even if we say, yep, neurological changes due to the, adolescent brain or hormonal fluctuations, if the behavior is rehearsed and they still don't have that emotional safety in the home.
Our behavior can become, learned adaptive.
It becomes their coping strategy.
even after they've matured past the adolescent brain, or there's no more hormone fluctuations, they can still have the resource guarding, so they're not necessarily gonna grow out of it.
(22:47):
phantom pregnancies in a lot of people's minds are literally, the dog gathering some teddy bears and taking them to their bed to mother them, rather than the resource guarding and severe symptoms that you can see, because they're really struggling at that point.
I think it's really important that we spend a few minutes talking about.
(23:12):
What we would advise for, a guardian who is struggling with resource guarding.
before we do that, I want to make it perfectly clear that we would absolutely not advise using.
Any intimidation, any punishment, any force, because anything like that can really exacerbate and make this worse, but also damage the trust and emotional safety, which are the two key pieces that are going to help stop the resource guarding.
(23:49):
So positive methods.
Incredibly important every time you are dealing with a dog.
However, with resource guarding particularly, we really want to make sure that everything we are doing is paying into that dog's emotional bank account rather than making a withdrawal from it.
(24:10):
can you tell us a bit more, Holly, about how you would, advise someone who's struggling with a dog that's resource guarding? Yeah, so I've had a few cases recently where spraying water in their face was used.
with a lot of dogs, they anticipate the punishment, whether that be grabbing hold of them, wrenching their mouth open, being sprayed, so they run under a surface where they feel safer.
(24:34):
that is another sign they're trying to find that safety.
So run under a table and then guard the item, or they run into a corner of a room.
When we are dealing with resource guarding, we've gotta try and figure out whether trust issues are broken down, how we've been responding.
'cause we are so focused on the dog's behavior, we forget about our own.
So I'm asking the client What has been the history of the resource guarding? Go back and think about how you've responded.
(25:03):
Including things like talking to the dog, eye contact, cornering them, pointing at them, shouting at them, so that we have an understanding of how they perceive their body language, Emily said earlier, it happens in so many different contexts.
We could get it wrong.
So if I'm saying, oh, we need to do swap training, we need to do this.
If we're doing it in a room where the dog's got a history of resource guarding, so example the dining room where the dining table is and we're doing the training there, the dog might already be close to the threshold.
(25:29):
we don't wanna do it somewhere where we already know they're feeling threatened.
We need to think about which environment is suitable before we start, how our behavior, our body language is being perceived.
even if we need to get an item off them.
They're so good at Twigging when they're trying to trick them.
So people go, oh, come and look at this toy and lead them away.
(25:52):
Direction obviously is important.
If we've got something really dangerous so they've got paracetamol or something, we need to get that off them.
The problem with going in there and going, you've got it, you can't have that and taking it off them is they can swallow faster.
Whereas, if we're trying to use redirection and saying, come and get this is great.
You lead them away and then you run into the item.
You are competing with them.
And that's exactly what the problem is.
You're competing for resources and there's that anxiety.
(26:15):
So one of the big, along with the emotional safety, one of the things I've been using recently, which is very simple, is the counting game, which is introduced by Rag Patel.
this is something that I ask people to do in an emergency situation when they need to get the item.
But they wanna make sure that we're not practicing the same patterns of behavior that are causing that perceived threat.
(26:39):
For those that don't know what the counting game is, it was actually designed as a recall game.
It's a pattern game whereby you count up and down with your hand and you are placing treats down as you count and the dog comes over for those treats, you move further away and you begin counting again.
The dog comes over and is catching up with you and you're trying to stay ahead of them.
Of course that way it's hands off handling of them following you away from the resource, being able to lead them out of that room.
(27:06):
The problem with this is if you, play the counting game only for this scenario.
It can become a predictor of removing the resource.
So the way you do it is gonna have to be very careful it's very nonchalant let's play this game, move them away, continue to play with them, make them forget the resource, don't go straight in there.
(27:27):
And then after 10, 50 minutes by, and they've gone, they've redirected to another toy or something, then very calmly, nonchalantly go and get the resource and remove it.
And that's what I do in an emergency situation.
In some cases, if it's something I don't want them to have, but it's not going to kill them, it might be a case of can I let this go and just leave the room if it's a tissue? Empty packet of crisps.
(27:51):
It's I, am I creating more risk of them injecting that by going over and removing it? And am I jeopardizing their emotional safety even more? Every time you have a situation where resource guarding, it's weighing up, is it safe to lead them with it? Is it really valuable? If it's an emergency, how can I effectively redirect them without that becoming a predictor? How do I make them feel safer and lead that resource? how do I make sure that the situation doesn't happen again? So how can I change the environment? Something as simple as keeping your bathroom door shut so they can't get in the bathroom bins.
(28:29):
I know so many gun dog owners and trainers that don't have a bin in the kitchen.
It's just fact of life.
You just have it somewhere else.
It's either in a cupboard or a baby gate around it.
Exactly.
We used to have a bin under the stair cupboard.
we had Ty, who was a rotty boy, and he came in to rescue, 20 kilos underweight.
(28:51):
He was, such a special boy.
And he was incredible.
We went on and did animal assisted therapy for years with children with special educational needs at the local primary school.
he was always food obsessed because he had been so hungry at certain times in his life.
we used to have the bin in the cupboard under the stairs and a mini.
(29:14):
Chest freezer, like a half size one.
one day I came home and realized that he could now open that door.
It was bolted.
he could actually open the door and get in.
He dragged the freezer out into the middle of the kitchen to get to something that was behind it.
Everywhere.
He was just the coolest dude, one day I heard these strange noises in the back garden and looked out the window he pinched the kid's skateboard and was skateboarding in the back garden.
(29:45):
52 kilo rottweiler.
He was the best.
It's another thing as well, isn't it, you've got dogs that.
They learn that resource guarding gets 'em, that men stimulation, they're, they almost get a dopamine hit.
Yeah.
I had a recent case where the dogs like actively bringing them the resource so they'd be confused because they're bringing them the resource, showing it to them, and then they're like, come get me.
(30:09):
They're going after 'em growling and snarling they said, I don't get it.
don't quite understand.
I said, it's quite rewarding for them.
They've learned that even if it's negative attention, it's attention.
They're scavenging.
It's a scavenging behavior.
They're getting the interaction they want and when you ask the context that a lot of resource going happens, it's when someone's working from home on a laptop, they've gotten something because they're bored, shown it to them and then said, follow me.
(30:33):
So part of your management is making sure you've got opportunities for 'em to scavenge so they feel the need to try and gain that entertainment somewhere else.
When it comes to the attention seeking, it's more in the sense of that connection.
They're trying to get that connection of something and that dopamine hit because it will be such subtle things that the brain enjoys.
(31:00):
And it will be, I want this toy conflicting.
I don't really wanna give it to you.
Go to mum.
Mum gets up.
Connection.
Don't want you to have it.
Oh yeah, but you got up.
Oh, then the brain goes, yes, connection.
That feels great.
Let's do it again.
And it's that unintentional reinforcement of behavior and self-reinforcing for the dog nothing is ever done.
(31:25):
deliberately, because our emotions drive our behaviors.
When you work with a dog, no matter what, their struggle is prevention is better than cure prevention gets you into a habit and habits, once you're in a habit, are hard to break.
It becomes a normal part of life and.
It will obviously depend on what stage of life your dog is in, but to prevent this from happening from day the puppy enters your home.
(31:55):
When you provide them their food, sometimes you can't just go, oh, here's all the enrichment.
That takes time.
Everything is a step-by-step process and you go along with them and increase the criteria as they develop more emotionally and they get more maturity.
at a very basic foundation level, when you give them their meals, you can.
Some people will argue from a bowl or enrichment, but for tiny babies, I just do bowl.
(32:17):
I do the enrichment later 'cause I just need them to adjust into the home.
They already had a bowl at the breeder.
Let's not due too much too soon.
And you give half of their food in the bowl, then while they're eating, you add the other half.
So your hand is the predictor of good things.
You give not taketh away, and that helps form that association and that's associative learning.
(32:38):
Whenever you come near me, I get more.
Oh, I love it when you come near, any good things happen and it's a predictable pattern that you are.
Continuously repeating every single day, and you use the meal times as opportunities.
People are really time poor in this day and age.
You don't actively have to go, oh, I didn't do this with my dog today.
I need to help them learn Do it in their meals.
(32:59):
You're feeding them anyway.
Two birds, one stone.
Yeah, and then it's that with children and the management.
Holly absolutely love that.
The dog, from whenever age you can do it, get them exposed and used to being in their pen.
It is their safe place because prevention is better than cure.
parents can't actively supervise their children and their dog, or they're making dinner, or someone else is happening and they're engaged The child goes near the dog's toy, the dog already sends a million messages and then the dog nips the child and they go, oh, they came out of nowhere.
(33:30):
And it is traumatic and it is serious.
like Holly said, that G is so important and it's teaching your children and also modeling behavior.
If you see something and your children are of age of learning this.
Oh no, he's got your toy.
I know that's really upsetting.
But he doesn't know the difference.
Hold on, let me show you, because if the toy's gonna be broken, it's gonna be broken.
(33:53):
What you need to do there is teach a life skill.
That's really important because You're not gonna be around.
And they need to learn that as well.
like you said, Joe, it's got to be a higher value.
And like you said, Holly, it's not about rushing, it's about taking your time and picking your battles.
And we go, oh no, that's my very expensive shoe.
And you've either already played that game in separate scenarios or these different ways of handling it, or you do a positive sound interrupter, every dog knows the sound of a bag.
(34:20):
It depends on their emotional association with that.
But sometimes I just use sounds and I don't talk at all, I get a treat bag shake it, toss some treats on the floor and walk away randomly throughout the day.
So that sound is conditioned that the dogs, they hear that sound Pavlov the bell and they spit it out.
'cause that is more reinforcing 'cause that is a higher dopamine.
(34:42):
What they're doing.
I say, sorry.
Sorry Joe.
No, you're go.
I was gonna say, what you were saying about the dopamine hit and that classical conditioning in emergency as well, you could use the doorbell.
Yeah.
Get the doorbell, the dogs lead in an emergency.
'cause obviously guests.
They drop what they've got, they run over, provide.
You haven't got a job that's terrified of guests.
That is, or the lead.
(35:03):
that's a good thing.
That's excitable for 'em.
It's a easy redirection.
Even if you can't, if you've got a job that guards and you can't get past them, and they're blocking your access to leave, then you can play the doorbell on your phone.
So good.
Is it just as an extra that you can't, that's been awesome my day.
Yeah.
Love that.
It's aner in emergency anyway.
Yeah.
because that panic ingestion is so dangerous not only do you have the risk of a dead dog, you then have a traumatized dog who's had to go to the vet, depending if they're able to get the dog to induce vomiting.
(35:32):
If they can't, they've gotta open them up.
ring the doorbell.
That's the most evil in this scenario because that conditioning, shifts, the brain's focus.
The dog is engaged in something that higher stimulus happens and the dog is able to reengage with the other thing.
What we work on, as with all dogs that come in is ready, steady catch, they don't need to catch it, it just goes on the floor, that's fine.
(35:59):
we're using their nose like find, and we are finding it with them, they learn the word ready.
if I said come, they'd be like, what you want me to, if I say ready, they're there.
Hey, what's going on? What's happening? I love that word.
Ready.
if anyone's got something they shouldn't, apart from Charlie who had.
(36:20):
My husband's passport while I was on a Zoom call I could see him, he was literally like, I like it.
the word ready just means something really exciting is gonna happen.
We also play a down game as well.
whoever goes down first gets a treat and then the next one gets a treat and the next one gets a treat.
(36:41):
Yeah.
And that's just so much fun.
But it means that when we're out and about, we start introducing it in the home first and then gradually build up to, outside in more and more distractions.
And the word down means something really cool as well.
It's wow, this is awesome.
Yeah.
So as long as we're having fun and, we're using positive methods to redirect their attention or we're adding value, We're going over time again every week.
(37:12):
No, we're not 43, not 45.
We're fine.
We've got time.
Busy backstage.
Oh no, and I've forgotten now.
I was gonna say, like you'll let you think about your point.
I've know there's been a bit of controversy over the drop and swap thing as well for resource guarding.
(37:33):
And I think that's because the emphasis is on that task orientation rather than the trust issue, which I totally understand.
I think with drop, the issue is it's been used so many times in such negative situations that it's been poisoned.
The dog's got a negative association with the word drop now.
'cause you're going drop.
Drop.
But it's a threat then.
and Then you're going drop with a nice toy and a treat and the drop.
(37:54):
And it just doesn't work.
So if I've got a history with a client where they've been using drop and then it's been poisoned, I will teach a swap instead.
But I do this with items that they don't resource guard.
And it's outside the context of, no value items.
Absolutely.
and it might be with items I didn't necessarily have yet.
So if I'm working with a very severe resource, guarder, I might place a treat on the ground, hold it, show it to them, but keep my hand nearby and say, swap.
(38:18):
It's just to teach them the concept of that's there.
You could take it if you wanted to, but I'm gonna keep my hand there just in case, and I'm gonna push a different reward towards you.
You're not gonna get that one.
To teach them that concept and then work up the hierarchy of items.
So that might be from treats to toys and to tissues But I would do that.
Outside of the context of your resource guarding and not go from doing that in one session and then using it straight away for resource guarding, because they're not gonna be prepared enough.
(38:44):
They need to build that skill level up, There's a lot of posts on social media about being cautious, about focusing so much on teaching, swap and drop.
When they are easily poisoned, they easily associate it with resource guarding scenarios, and that then becomes a predictor, just like your counting game or your doorbell.
We have to be cautious about how we do these things.
Context in individual matters.
I think it's really important that we discuss, whether or not we're going over time, going back to what you were saying, Holly, about the poodle mixes and the six to 12 month mark.
(39:15):
adolescence is your kind of jam.
what is going on with them in that six to 12 month period? That means you are potentially seeing that increase in resource gardening.
you've got the hormonal fluctuations that we've discussed.
you've got, More threat signaling in the brain because the PA axis, which is your sort of body's stress response, is hyperactive joint adolescence.
(39:41):
So you've got greater stress response and longer recovery times from stress.
So if you've got a dog that's trigger stress from, whatever stress activity they've had over there, and then you've gone too close, to remove a resource, that's maybe when they're really chronically stressed and we see resource guarding.
You've also got fluctuations in serotonin, and their sleep patterns are starting to change.
(40:02):
You also have a poor fear extinction, so their brain's ability to extinguish fear memories becomes inhibited as well.
For example, if you've got a dog where you give them a chew and you've tried to take it off them.
They remember that quite well.
But then the next day when you don't take off them, they don't then go, oh, do you know what? She didn't take it off me today.
(40:24):
Therefore, I'm gonna get rid of that fearful memory of when she did.
They hold on to that fearful memory and it becomes very powerful.
No matter how many times we try and change that.
And so you've got a dog that's more sensitive to stress, poorer impulse control.
the inhibitor in neurons in the brain, are less than the excitatory neurons.
(40:45):
You've got very excitable behavior, less impulse control, just more impulsive behaviors, more emotional.
Choices that they make because they haven't got that, cognitive control to regulate those emotions.
So you've got a perfect storm of hormones and neurological changes that are making 'em chronically, stressed and more threatened by anything they perceive that's gonna be negative for them.
(41:08):
there's a lot of different things that I've considered, which is why we'll definitely do more on that subject in adolescent dogs.
'cause that seems to be the timeframe of when it happens.
It's that shift from the brain after the critical period to the adolescent period, the brain shifts and what I like to say, it's not so open-minded.
It's not as open to new novel experiences.
(41:29):
Everything can be deemed a bit more threatening because of the fluctuations between serotonin and cortisol You've also got that little, area called the nucleus accumbens, which is where they process rewards.
that becomes hypersensitive to rewards, but less sensitive to punishments.
So you've got people using more aversive training and having to escalate their aversive training.
And the dog's no, this is more rewarding.
(41:50):
I'm not listening to you.
they're gonna seek out novel items.
So things they think, oh, this is super interesting 'cause I'm more interested in novel things now I don't want you to take this from me.
I'm hyper, sensitive to stress.
And then again, you've got the perfect ingredients for Resource Garden to happen in that period of development.
Oh, I could listen to you all day.
I know.
(42:15):
Absolutely fascinating.
Thank you so much for joining us this evening, or morning, or afternoon.
Wow.
You've got some exciting stuff coming up, haven't you, Holly, do you wanna tell people a bit more about what you've got going on and how they can get in touch with you before we let you go? Yeah, so I am, very focused on adolescent at the moment, that has been my focus for the last, I wanna say two years now.
(42:43):
I've been working on a book on the subject alongside all the projects on that.
everything under the sun at the moment, it's coming into, it's oh, resource guarding happens at this stage.
You've gotta put that in there.
find some pregnancies, go in there.
that's gotta go in there.
Brain development it's all making so many connections at the moment.
you can reach me on portals.com
or on Facebook, which is just portals again.
I have a dog dilemmas, positive supports, positive training and support group people can join.
(43:07):
I'm in there as well.
I post in there as well.
Fabulous.
Thank you so much, Holly.
Oh my goodness.
Amazing.
Wow, that book.
I message Holly all the time is it done yet? Hurry up.
Hurry.
But Yeah.
Absolutely.
And it just never ends.
It's all, it's 'cause there's so much.
(43:30):
I know.
I know.
I know.
But canine principles is having a writer retreat in October because so many of us are, in the process of writing, another book or our first books.
And oh my goodness, this is amazing.
It is gonna be epic.
Jay Den, who was our guest last episode, and I are hosting it.
(43:53):
We're both published authors, Amazon number one, bestselling, and also focusing around why you live so far away.
Yeah, it's gonna be epic.
It really is.
It is being held at a dog friendly venue as well.
(44:15):
Lot of space and land around to chill.
super exciting.
canine principles also has an adolescent.
dog course, in the pipeline being written by Holly Leak.
So if you've enjoyed this episode and learn lots, please do keep your eyes peeled or pop an email to info@canineprinciples.com
(44:37):
and we'll add you to the list to be notified when that course goes live.
I feel like this podcast, my inner geek or outer geek.
It's just so happy The experience is just so good and everyone who's been on, and I know it's only five episodes, Never stop learning, ever.
(45:00):
It doesn't matter who you are, what you've studied, what you've not studied, where you are in your life.
This industry, you never, ever stop learning.
I have just loved everyone who has come on here.
Each individual dog teaches us something different, our guests are jaw dropping next season.
We have got some exciting stuff on, but we won't spoil.
(45:24):
We won't do any spoilers.
We'll let it dangle, but we are having.
A one week break, and we're back with season two, the beginning of June, first Wednesday in June at seven 30 BST, or if you are in New Zealand, first Thursday in June.
(45:46):
keep your eyes peeled for the announcements of the guest speakers.
If you have enjoyed this podcast, please do share with all your friends, all your networks, let them know about the Dog Expert podcast and we will keep on inviting the most wonderful people like Holly onto the podcast.
(46:08):
if you'd like to come on the podcast or you'd like us to discuss a specific subject, please let us know in the comments.
Yes, we're here to help and the whole reason, for us doing the podcast is to help people to help dogs.
As ethically as possible.
So please do let us know if there's anything you want us to discuss.
(46:32):
end of season one.
Bye from me.
Bye from me.
Thank you so much everyone.
Have a wonderful time.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to the Dog Expert Podcast, the podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
(46:53):
If you've enjoyed this episode, do come and let us know in our free Facebook group for dog lovers Everywhere Ethical Dog Training with Canine principles.
That way we can make more content like this that you'll love.
We would love for you to leave a review on here and hit subscribe so that you never miss an episode.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you wonāt hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, youāve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.