August 9, 2025 • 36 mins
Join us for a special Pride Month episode of The Dog Expert Podcast as we celebrate love, acceptance, and inclusivity across the dog industry.
Featuring guest speakers Tasha Attwood and Debby Lucken, who are leading a powerful wave of support for the LGBTQ+ community - one message, one voice, one paw at a time.
#PrideAndPaws #DogIndustryPride #LGBTQplus #PrideMonth2025 #TheDogExpertPodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
Welcome to the Dog Expert Podcast.
The podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
Powered by canine principles.com.
Helping passionate dog people go from feeling unsure and overwhelmed to confident, compassionate, and science savvy through a rich library of online courses and formal qualifications.
(00:33):
Each week on the podcast, we dive deep into the real, raw and rewarding world of dogs.
This isn't about obedience.
This is about understanding because dogs aren't problems to solve.
They're free thinking, sentient beings to connect with.
(00:55):
Hello and welcome back to the Dog Expert Podcast.
It is season two, episode one, and I'm flying solo this week because Emily is not able to join us live.
hello to everyone else as well.
We are super excited because this month is Pride Month.
(01:18):
We are recording in June.
we are delighted to be celebrating Pride Month in Raising.
raising the profile of how important inclusivity is, particularly when, we are in such testing crazy times as we are.
I am.
So honored to be joined by two amazing ladies this evening who have been doing incredible work in the dog world around inclusivity, this pride month.
(01:50):
let me bring on the wonderful Debbie Luckin and the fabulous Asha Atwood.
Thank you so much for joining us this evening.
Ladies, it is so wonderful to have you here.
Do you want to introduce yourselves to anyone listening and tell them all about what you do in day-to-day normal life Go for it, Debbie.
(02:14):
Okay.
So I'm Debbie Luckin and I am a dog trainer and a dog behaviorist.
And, I am the founder of Kids Around Dogs, which is an association of professionals.
That started in the uk but is now global.
And, we specialize in working with children, to help them be happy and safe around dogs and to understand and respect dogs, as they should.
(02:38):
As they should.
And, I live in Dorsett with my husband, our daughter Molly, our, two doggies, Wilco and Winnie.
And our had, Mario.
And I think that's it.
Fabulous.
Fabulous.
And how did you get into, running a business that has such meaning and makes such a difference? It is because of my daughter really.
(03:02):
she started having friends over.
I was already a trainer and then she started having friends over and I realized how, lots, of children are either.
Very scared of dogs.
Could not be anywhere near even our own dogs.
or they're so crazy around dogs and literally they go nuts for them.
And very few, just, yeah, they like the dogs.
(03:25):
But that was that they could be around them without going either, nuts for them and wanted to hug them and kiss them all the time Or being terrified of them.
So I told right, I want to do something to help those children, who are scared of dogs and those children who maybe put themselves into a necessary danger by annoying the dogs too much.
(03:47):
There was nothing, around the specific association for this.
after thinking about it for a long time, I founded Kids Around Dogs now we have courses, for family gen in general.
We have courses for, school dogs.
They have more of a permanent positioning to schools.
We have programs for, where we offer educational talks.
(04:09):
We have a fantastic new, course on, working with neurodivergent children and their dogs, which is very precious.
Me this new course and also.
Two protocols.
One is, to overcome the fur dogs in children and the other one is to overcome the fur dogs in adults.
So we can now really help, massive variety of, of children, of families.
(04:32):
And, just really happy that we can, reach as many people as possible, and help as many as possible.
Fantastic.
Amazing work.
I could talk about.
It all day.
I'm sure we could probably talk about it all day as well.
when you visited bmo We did talk about it for a long time.
Talked a lot, but ages.
(04:56):
We gotta like the end of the beach and we're like, maybe we should around now, now we're nearly in France.
Asha.
Welcome to the podcast.
Do you wanna tell everyone a bit more about you and what you do? Where you at? Yeah.
So I'm RA Ward.
I live in Lincolnshire and I run mischief Holistic Education and Behavior Services.
(05:21):
I'm a dog trainer and a behaviorist.
I'm part of the CAD world, which is really cool.
And I've actually done a neurodivergent course, which is an neurodivergent adult, I think was really awesome.
Because that's something that.
I feel is really misunderstood within our industry let alone other industries.
(05:41):
I think CAD's really important to support children like myself who was diagnosed as autistic.
And those kids are still out there that might be getting let down by the schools and have challenges with the.
people who are supposed to help them at their schools.
So yeah, that's why I think it's so important.
(06:03):
Absolutely.
And if, if you had the knowledge that you'd had.
Through the course, but also your diagnosis at an earlier stage of your life and had that better understanding of how your brain works.
Do you think that would've had, an impact earlier on? Oh yeah, absolutely.
(06:26):
I don't think I didn't ever feel that I fitted in and I didn't feel like I ever belonged.
And I also ran away from home as a child 'cause it was abusive.
So I've got that scope as well.
It was parents who were failing.
So it wasn't a good environment anyway, let alone a child keeps coming back, and they're getting like new diagnosis, like dyslexia and that kind of thing.
(06:52):
And then it's you are just stupid.
You're stupid and you can't achieve anything going through that.
I wouldn't have got into maybe some of the situations that I got into.
And yeah, had more support.
And I think that's another reason why it's so important for ca 'cause those kids are out there.
And also when adults try to speak to you about it, like they know something's going on at home normally, the parents in the next room, can hear everything.
(07:17):
It's really nice to hopefully build a community where children can reach out and know that they're safe and then we can go to the relevant body as well.
I definitely think going to college, facing university or that kind of thing would've been a lot easier, if I'd been diagnosed a lot earlier.
(07:40):
I think you can see something out there that I can't see.
what you've been through to get to the point where you're at now you've just absolutely inspirational.
to be able to have open conversations and be vulnerable, about your experiences is going to help so many people realize that they're not alone and that there is help out there it's okay to be vulnerable, it's not okay that there were flaws in the system.
(08:08):
like having the parents in the next room when they could hear everything.
And, we've got personal experiences in our family where counselor, we tried to get a diagnosis for a family member.
it was just a really, lengthy, horrible process.
And it was like we were lying and no one would believe us.
And actually because girls mask things, more, and we're almost overlooked.
(08:36):
And it wasn't until the person was, 21 went through a private route and, ended up managing to get a diagnosis, of a DHD, autism and this calculator as well.
to have been let down through the system the whole way and to have been referred for counseling and it put down as anxiety and then the counselor to be talking.
(09:04):
About what they'd been confided with people that they shouldn't have been talking about it just breaches the trust and, Makes you wanna retreat and not get the help that you are entitled to deserve and should get.
if someone is in that situation where they're feeling that they need some additional support, that they, have been let down by the system, or they've been judged or they feel judged in the past and that they're not good enough, to access the support, what would your message be to them? To reach out to an adult you feel that you can trust or that you've got a connection with? Because not all adults are bad and they're not gonna go speak to your guardian, whoever your adult is.
(09:48):
Then I think that's the main thing.
Knowing that there's not gonna be a breach of trust.
I know that it's not gonna go back to that person that you're frightened of or you're not getting support from.
And yeah, and like I keep coming back to cad, but the adults are safe and they've been vetted these are adults that any child can trust because of the process that you've set up for us, Debbie.
(10:08):
I wish there was something like Cat around when I was a kid.
And I would've absolutely reached out 'cause dogs were my life because that was my bond and connection.
I only felt safe with my dog.
I know there's gonna be tons of other kids out there in the same situation and their dog is gonna be their world.
Interesting.
And, coming back as well to you mentioned at the beginning is Pride month as well.
(10:33):
It's not just with Neurodivergent children, but with anything I think that because we are all very passionate about dogs and our life really revolves around our dogs.
some days I really don't know how I would handle so many things.
Without the help of my dog while I understand that it's difficult, for a child of any age to go, how can I possibly talk to the dog trainer about the things that I'm going through.
(10:59):
But if anyone, if anyone is listening and they do feel they don't have anyone to talk to, but they know someone who is a cat professional, you can reach out to us.
We try our best to help.
We are not therapists, but we might be able to help to, even just make you feel a little bit better.
But also then we can try and help and find, The right people.
(11:21):
They have the ability to professionally help, the children.
Even if it's someone that is my next door neighbor kind of thing.
We do here stuff like that all the time, don't we? So it's difficult to go I don't know those people.
why should I trust them? when you don't have anyone else and you feel like you're all alone in the world.
Just so you know you're not.
(11:42):
And that's why as well, Tasha, about a month ago, I think now.
She sent me an email and said, why don't we do a course? 'cause pride month is coming up.
Why don't we do a course to, support, the LGBTQA Plus community? and I'm like, oh yeah, I'm for it.
So I started contact.
Some people realized that actually a course was a bit of a, an ambitious We did get excited there for a minute.
(12:07):
Might be something for the future though.
it was a bit tight to manage a course.
Because also we didn't just want to do it ourself.
We wanted involvement of other, professionals were, also in the different things.
there is, strength in numbers and the more of us, the better we talked about it again and, decided to go for a calendar kind of thing.
(12:27):
Brilliant.
Every day you would've a poster from, a professional in our field.
So we got, we got typing and asked all the people that we knew who wanted to take part and we ended up with more people that, that actually were needed for the, the day of the month.
So what I personally did.
You're gonna see in the kids around dog staff more than one speaker sometimes Natasha pointed something out by July that I didn't know.
(12:54):
Do you wanna explain that? Yeah.
We have June as Pride Month, but we also have Disability Pride month, in July.
So it actually runs two months.
Amazing.
just.
Because June is labeled as Pride Month, and it's a wonderful celebration and it's fabulous that everyone is, pulling together to celebrate.
(13:19):
It doesn't have to end there.
It doesn't have to end in July.
There's no reason why we can't.
these are the videos that you've put together.
I'm sharing them all year round You always wearing that.
Debbie Hair looks.
Great.
And I'm like, yeah, it's the first time I've been to the hairdresser since lockdown, so I had to do a video.
(13:47):
so we can, really just take a minute to thank you guys because to have put all this together wasn't something that happened overnight.
It took a lot of work in the background.
And not only have you collated all the videos, into one that we're gonna share.
At the end of pride month, you've done them all individually so that we can have one a day, and you've actually put them all onto a wonderful background as well, which is just fabulous.
(14:17):
thank you so much for making this happen.
why did you feel it was so important? I think because Debbie's neurodivergent course really touched me, and with the therapists that were a part of the course and learning from these different people.
for a lot of autistic or neurodivergent people, a lot of us are non-binary or trans we don't fit into understanding binary, like male and female I grew up not feeling like I was either.
(14:47):
And then also I didn't feel like fitted in with people because like you get to a certain age and people start having boyfriends and that kind of thing.
I'm Debbie, so I needed an attachment to somebody to develop a relationship from there rather than just going into a relationship, and being ace as well.
I'm not saying all autistic people, but a lot of us are knew I divergent.
(15:08):
And again, it's something scary and things are so different now.
It's wonderful.
But at the same time, there's also a really horrible side to it.
I shared a pride video, put some famous figures together and was like, happy Pride month on the first June.
on TikTok I got some really horrible comments, which I reported.
(15:29):
TikTok was like, no, it doesn't violate our community standards.
that's surprising though, At this day and age, be a bit more, careful with things what part should the social media platforms be playing in their accountability and how they take ownership for the vial things that they allow to be said.
(15:52):
it is mind blowing.
There was, a TikTok that came up yesterday where there was a lady who, Jo, you're frozen.
We want to know what happened to the lady.
While we wait for Joe, I also want to say I think for me not only the fact that we see a lot of people, who are, part of the community of the lgbtq, lgbtq a plus community and, and they're not accepted even within their family.
(16:24):
Or maybe they're even scared to come out say who they are, what they think, how they feel, And Oh, we lost her completely.
Do you think we're still Oh, we're still alive.
Hopefully she's coming back now.
It's just left the two of us.
But just to say that when I was growing up and I was growing up in Switzerland as well, which is a much smaller country and very, at least back then anyway, very backwards in many things.
(16:49):
All this was, there was no such thing as a pride model.
There was no such thing as pride.
you wouldn't have been proud having different opinions, from others.
We were just explaining a bit how it felt for me and the fact that because I grew up in Switzerland, is much smaller country where, the differences in, the way people love and the way people are It's tricky to be, to have different opinion in anything, but let alone, sexuality and all that.
(17:17):
And obviously I'm gonna be 45 on Monday we are not talking exactly yesterday, talking about 30 years ago or so.
Growing up with those kind of mentality and being I'm straight.
I've always known I was straight, I always fenced.
I always fenced the boys.
So I knew and I was being, I was happy, as Larry to be straight.
(17:38):
But I could see other kids in our school and it was obvious that they had different, view if you like or different, way of loving that I had, if you like.
And they had to pretend that they were engaged, that they weren't, whatever, and all the new terminology as well, they didn't exist.
So as a mom, I'm speaking to a lot of parents out there and to a lot of kids as well.
(18:03):
Please be patient with us because it's not we don't want to learn new things.
It's just, it is tricky to know all the terminology.
And even today, my daughter and I were watching a video and I wasn't sure of maybe what gender the singer was.
And so my teenager said.
What gender? Do you know, what gender they identify as? And then she said, oh a girl.
(18:28):
And then she goes, oh, mommy's such a weirdo.
I'm trying to understand just want to know more.
But it's tricky for us as well coming into new terms and new way of seeing the world.
I think it's important to respect people like me as well, that we're just trying to understand new words and everything, open doors to.
(18:50):
Anyone who respects each other as well, and they can love whoever they want, as long as, as well that they're logged back, if don't enforce your, I think it's the same with all, areas where there's been prejudices in the past.
(19:11):
for example, my children are mixed race, and when we first moved to a new area my, daughter who was four at the time, was called some appalling racist names when, we were watching playbacks of Footballers Wives, I dunno if you've seen it on, I think the, it was like 2004.
(19:32):
It was recorded and the language that they're using, and I think the football industry as a whole is still quite, that I don't, I can't think of a single footballer who's come out at all.
But I think that.
Things have progressed massively, but there are still people.
(19:52):
If I say of our generation, Debbie, did I say 45? No, I meant 21.
Yeah.
that's, I say 29 and I'm sticking there.
nevermind.
But I think, it is okay to ask questions and it is okay to be curious and to, come from a place of love rather than saying words that may be, offensive Questioning and saying, what would be the appropriate term for me to use in this situation? Because I wouldn't want to ever offend anyone.
(20:27):
exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what if you hear, if someone uses language that isn't appropriate, do you pull them up on it and say, did you know that could be seen as quite offensive? Yeah, I do particularly, because it's like you said, Debbie, it's hard to ask questions when you're not in the community.
It is hard to ask questions for myself being non-binary and my pronouns are they them.
(20:51):
But when people refer to me as like a female, I'm like technically, I am biologically.
it's having that patience with people.
So when I reached out to you by email, Debbie I know how you are and everything.
But if that had been somebody else, I wouldn't have been able to say like the lgbtq plus community because of there's quite a lot of homophobic people out there still.
(21:15):
And a lot of adults dunno how to.
Talk about it without using horrible slurs if you look back to the eighties with Stonewall, and all of this amazing things that people have done through the years, even in the fifties, it is important to remember that because the older people in the LGBT community, they're also quite happy to talk to people and it's less of that fear.
(21:38):
So what my generation has.
We've been supported by the Gen X who rose up and fought for us, but it wasn't perfect.
And then it is really sad.
each generation it's getting a little bit better.
But then Brianna J's happened and now it's like we're going back beyond the eighties it's, not very nice.
Getting the comments on TikTok and stuff, I was like, I'm not engaging with you 'cause you're clearly trolls.
(22:03):
But if that was somebody that I knew, or if it was another dog professional and they said something, I'd absolutely pull them up on it and say, this is offensive.
This is why it's offensive.
Because I think people need to be kinder because so many children are getting murdered as well.
in the US either kids or young adults every week.
(22:25):
And instead they're gonna try and stop gay marriage a lot of people had to leave Florida because of the trans-gender stuff going on, and a teacher got sacked for standing up for transgender kids.
And the world's going backwards quite a lot.
And I'd be really.
Proud if a dog community at least could stay stable and be actually like you.
(22:47):
Be who you want, you love who you want, because if you're loving somebody, that's a beautiful thing.
And I don't think anybody should be taking that away from another person and saying what Natasha says as well I know that none of us live in the us but unfortunately the US is a very powerful country.
a lot of the time, they lead, things, sometimes are good.
(23:11):
I love a good Hollywood movie like anyone else, but when is the negative things is really scary thing that they might, influence and they've already influenced other countries.
Just because they are a powerful country.
So if anyone is watching over there that they can do something, please do it.
Even if it's just one thing, like we've done this video, we're doing these videos every day.
(23:32):
the talk behind this thing as well, when we were talking about Natasha as well.
if this one video reaches one person wouldn't that be awesome? That one person that needed it that day, that's it.
We've done it.
Even if it's just that one person that is, feels supported, feels elevated, feel empowered because of one of the messages.
(23:57):
We've done it, which just feels like they belong and that they're not, outsiders or on the edge of the rest of the world.
Exactly.
We're all together.
And we shouldn't feel that way because we all have opinions, we're all different in our ways.
for instance, I myself, I'm a foreigner here.
But I've been welcomed by so many.
(24:19):
It's not always been, super easy, but I guess I am lucky to be white, to be honest, because if I hadn't been, I probably wouldn't have it as easy as I had in some respect.
But then again, as soon as I open my mouth, everyone knows, you're know English, are you? Yeah.
But you can say Mario like no one else.
(24:40):
Mario, Mario thing.
Everyone was like, I'm gonna get you to say, Mario and Luigi voice, note it to me so I could listen to it every morning just to make me smile.
Start the day off.
Do I need to call you every day? Mario.
Luigi, get up.
No, you can't say it.
Happy.
No.
(25:01):
Mario, Luigi.
Get up.
Then wake up.
Like why do I fancy spaghetti and pizza for breakfast? I wonder.
Ice cream.
Just going back to, pride month and the amazing stuff that you're doing, to raise awareness and to, just make a stand really the what's, not acceptable and actually need to make our voices heard Support other people in speaking out living their truth and being themselves and feeling happy to, comfortable to be able to express, who they really authentically are.
(25:41):
why should anyone ever be made to feel they can't be their true selves, because of the amazing stuff you've been doing.
you said there's been a little bit of negativity on TikTok.
Have you had much other response from the videos? No, not really.
So YouTube, nothing's occurred we're not seeing likes or support apart from like in Andrew Hale's group.
(26:07):
Yes.
We've been quite a lot of support there and you, Joe, of course, commented as well, and boosted it up.
But this is a problem as well because when we was reaching out to people, and when I spoke to people about doing stuff for pride we don't have to 'cause we're accepting.
it goes without saying.
But that's really unhelpful because.
(26:28):
It is like a get out clause and then we don't know who we're actually safe around.
People saying, oh it goes without saying pop pride stuff or transgender stuff on your content.
Like maybe once a month will be really helpful because on my website, the first thing is hi, I'm t Atwood and I'm listening.
I'm that and the other, and everybody's welcome no matter who you are, how you identify, that kind of thing.
(26:54):
And I think that's where, as an industry, we need to step up and say, actually I am supportive.
Because it makes you feel like, oh, is that person actually supportive? And going back again, sorry to be Brianna Jay.
That child struggled in school.
If you watch documentary with her mom, like they was already dealing with teenage problems and like her mom, was a single mom raising the kids.
(27:19):
Brianna was struggling with eating disorders, which we know can.
It is like comorbidity 'cause of like you are having this problem with your identity, you're getting bullied at school.
an eating disorder means that I can control what's going on around me.
we've got to stop this.
that family could have been helped a lot more.
And then maybe kids wanna end up in these situations that are really dire.
(27:41):
And I don't think it's enough anymore just to say it goes without same because I work with a lot of clients who work with me because of that little paragraph on my website because I know that they're safe and I think more people should do it.
But yeah, I don't know if it's 'cause I'm disabled as well, Yeah, so you get that side of it.
But again, disabled people don't feel that they can reach out to whoever, and I think it's really important that we show this and make it a normal thing to see on our Facebook business pages and our website so that then people can go.
(28:15):
I know I'm gonna be safe with this person and I want to set up a little interview with them, see how we get on.
And then maybe you get a client out of it who feels safe and by word of mouth, you getting lots of people coming to you so it actually works in your best interest.
When you get a bad comment, but I, 'cause sometimes, and I, it is fine for whether what we reached out to, to, join this project and they refuse.
(28:39):
That's perfectly fine.
one of the things that seemed to be also a little bit the, common fear was what if I post something where if I post a video and get, haters and it might happen, I kept thinking, what if, I post my video And someone, starts being horrible.
I'm thinking to me, in my page and whatever is that one video, maybe two videos, they get the haters and I can just brush it off and not engage and let it go.
(29:06):
And to me would be that one day on social media, that one comment, maybe two.
Before the people in this community could be something that goes on every single way of their lives and maybe even by the people that they.
Love the most and they're supposed to be protected by.
Again, no judgment, no one has to do anything they don't wanna do.
(29:28):
That's perfectly fine.
But maybe have a little think when you're thinking, oh, should I, or should I not post something in favor of pride month or in favor of this community or any other community? When you're worried about that one comment, and I understand that 'cause it's horrible to get haters, think that for you would be that one comment.
And you can even delete it if you want to.
'cause Facebook allowed you, or social media allow you to delete comments like that.
(29:53):
But think about those people in those community and with those, religions or whatever it is, how they feel every day of their life getting.
Hated haters messaging or even to their faces as it happened to, to your, yourself, Joe.
It must have been horrible and ease.
Ease.
When someone has a little comment to say, and it has happened to me so many times, Just because I'm here.
(30:17):
If I hadn't been here, it would've been me as well.
So it doesn't matter what community you want to help out, reach out to.
Just do it.
It's that one message.
It's not gonna, hurt you very much in long term.
If anything, it's gonna help you to feel better, to do something nice for other people and hopefully to help, someone even if it makes a difference to one person who sees a video, it's worth it.
(30:42):
But it's also about standing up for what you feel is right.
with the dogs.
I will stand up and advocate for force free methods consent based handling and, cognitive letter rehabilitation.
And I will stand up for all the things I feel very strongly about, because it's black and white in my head, what's right and wrong in terms of how, they're treated as completely freethinking.
(31:11):
Beings who are captives, And with this, it's no different to me It is right to stand up for people who need us because they're being excluded.
And not part the rest of society, which is just.
I'm not allowed to say naughty words.
You can do it with kindness as well.
(31:33):
I had a lovely walk in Bournemouth, do you remember that day? It was like puppy day, wasn't it? so many It was one that just run.
that was that.
Where did that one come from? Where's that one gone the guardians and inside you screaming.
Then you go, what? ever so professional, ever polite.
I can't remember the exact things you said, but you were lovely to the, there was that one, that couple with a little pp, the puppy just went justed.
(32:00):
It got his whistle.
Oh my goodness.
That was just, I dunno, quite what happened that day because there were so many dogs on the beach.
It was like they knew we were around.
if you can't reach the guardian, then you can't help the dog.
(32:21):
I always think that training the humans is more important than training the dogs because the dogs already know.
We just need to make sure that we're continuing our learning and each dog teaches us something different as well as all of the academic education.
It's so similar, isn't it? as you said, we know we want to treat dogs and we want to help them, and we want to make sure that they have a happy, healthy, and the best life they can possibly have.
(32:49):
It's the same thing, isn't it? if we can reach out to, the family that has adopted, dogs, and if we can just help that one doggie, isn't that what we want after all? But yeah, the concept is exactly the same.
So let's hope that we can help, kids and adults out there, not only children, to feel proud of who they are.
(33:11):
We are running out of time.
Have you got any final, words, Tasha? it would be really nice if our industry could start stepping up a little bit and showing people that they are safe like I do on my one consult, by Zoom.
And it's okay me working with these people, but I can't work with everybody.
Whereas if I could safely say, you can go to this professional and I promise that you'll be safe, and they won't ask any, questions that shouldn't be asking that kind of thing, that would actually be really nice.
(33:42):
'cause like I say, when we can look after the Guardian who's the primary caregiver, then we are looking out for the dog and protecting the dog by protecting that person.
And we've got to understand that.
You may have privilege 'cause of the color of your skin but every single person is on a different journey and maybe battling different things.
So I think it's just important to genuinely be nice and be kind to people I think when you are positive and kind, it pulls people into you who need that help and a little bit of guidance as well, just to feel safe.
(34:19):
And then you'll be surrounded by people that you actually want to be surrounded by as well.
Yeah.
And you are in alignment with your values We also believe that they should be standing up for what's right.
Absolutely.
Any final words from you, Debbie? Just that, whatever you do remember, our kids are always watching us.
Hopefully by being kind, by being respectful, and, remember our children are, looking at what we're doing if we are this kind of nice people, hopefully we'll also be raising lovely young.
(34:50):
If anyone wants to reach out to you, Tasha, where can they get in touch? If they go to my website, which is mischief.com,
it's abbreviated.
that's got all of my socials on there.
And.
Where people can reach out on the platform they feel most comfortable with.
Amazing.
And Debbie, where can people find your contact info? you can go on, kids around dogs.co
(35:11):
uk and you can find there.
Then also the different platforms of where we are on Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube.
Please follow us on YouTube.
subscribe to our YouTube channel.
The kids on Dogs one.
(35:31):
Brilliant.
thank you so much for coming on to talk to us, this evening.
Just an absolute joy to have you both here.
Oh, thank you.
I hoping you're able to join us on future podcasts too thank you from the bottom of all of the dog industry's hearts for what you've been doing to raise awareness for inclusivity, this pride month.
(35:52):
Really appreciate all that you've done.
Thank you very much.
we'll see.
Everyone watching next week for season two, episode two.
Thank you for listening to the Dog Expert Podcast, the podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
If you've enjoyed this episode, do come and let us know in our free Facebook group for dog lovers Ethical Dog Training with Canine principles.
(36:17):
That way we can make more content like this that you'll love.
We would love for you to leave a review on here and hit subscribe so that you never miss an episode.
Welcome to the Dog Expert Podcast.
The podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
Powered by canine principles.com.
Helping passionate dog people go from feeling unsure and overwhelmed to confident, compassionate, and science savvy through a rich library of online courses and formal qualifications.
(00:33):
Each week on the podcast, we dive deep into the real, raw and rewarding world of dogs.
This isn't about obedience.
This is about understanding because dogs aren't problems to solve.
They're free thinking, sentient beings to connect with.
(00:55):
Hello and welcome back to the Dog Expert Podcast.
It is season two, episode one, and I'm flying solo this week because Emily is not able to join us live.
hello to everyone else as well.
We are super excited because this month is Pride Month.
(01:18):
We are recording in June.
we are delighted to be celebrating Pride Month in Raising.
raising the profile of how important inclusivity is, particularly when, we are in such testing crazy times as we are.
I am.
So honored to be joined by two amazing ladies this evening who have been doing incredible work in the dog world around inclusivity, this pride month.
(01:50):
let me bring on the wonderful Debbie Luckin and the fabulous Asha Atwood.
Thank you so much for joining us this evening.
Ladies, it is so wonderful to have you here.
Do you want to introduce yourselves to anyone listening and tell them all about what you do in day-to-day normal life Go for it, Debbie.
(02:14):
Okay.
So I'm Debbie Luckin and I am a dog trainer and a dog behaviorist.
And, I am the founder of Kids Around Dogs, which is an association of professionals.
That started in the uk but is now global.
And, we specialize in working with children, to help them be happy and safe around dogs and to understand and respect dogs, as they should.
(02:38):
As they should.
And, I live in Dorsett with my husband, our daughter Molly, our, two doggies, Wilco and Winnie.
And our had, Mario.
And I think that's it.
Fabulous.
Fabulous.
And how did you get into, running a business that has such meaning and makes such a difference? It is because of my daughter really.
(03:02):
she started having friends over.
I was already a trainer and then she started having friends over and I realized how, lots, of children are either.
Very scared of dogs.
Could not be anywhere near even our own dogs.
or they're so crazy around dogs and literally they go nuts for them.
And very few, just, yeah, they like the dogs.
(03:25):
But that was that they could be around them without going either, nuts for them and wanted to hug them and kiss them all the time Or being terrified of them.
So I told right, I want to do something to help those children, who are scared of dogs and those children who maybe put themselves into a necessary danger by annoying the dogs too much.
(03:47):
There was nothing, around the specific association for this.
after thinking about it for a long time, I founded Kids Around Dogs now we have courses, for family gen in general.
We have courses for, school dogs.
They have more of a permanent positioning to schools.
We have programs for, where we offer educational talks.
(04:09):
We have a fantastic new, course on, working with neurodivergent children and their dogs, which is very precious.
Me this new course and also.
Two protocols.
One is, to overcome the fur dogs in children and the other one is to overcome the fur dogs in adults.
So we can now really help, massive variety of, of children, of families.
(04:32):
And, just really happy that we can, reach as many people as possible, and help as many as possible.
Fantastic.
Amazing work.
I could talk about.
It all day.
I'm sure we could probably talk about it all day as well.
when you visited bmo We did talk about it for a long time.
Talked a lot, but ages.
(04:56):
We gotta like the end of the beach and we're like, maybe we should around now, now we're nearly in France.
Asha.
Welcome to the podcast.
Do you wanna tell everyone a bit more about you and what you do? Where you at? Yeah.
So I'm RA Ward.
I live in Lincolnshire and I run mischief Holistic Education and Behavior Services.
(05:21):
I'm a dog trainer and a behaviorist.
I'm part of the CAD world, which is really cool.
And I've actually done a neurodivergent course, which is an neurodivergent adult, I think was really awesome.
Because that's something that.
I feel is really misunderstood within our industry let alone other industries.
(05:41):
I think CAD's really important to support children like myself who was diagnosed as autistic.
And those kids are still out there that might be getting let down by the schools and have challenges with the.
people who are supposed to help them at their schools.
So yeah, that's why I think it's so important.
(06:03):
Absolutely.
And if, if you had the knowledge that you'd had.
Through the course, but also your diagnosis at an earlier stage of your life and had that better understanding of how your brain works.
Do you think that would've had, an impact earlier on? Oh yeah, absolutely.
(06:26):
I don't think I didn't ever feel that I fitted in and I didn't feel like I ever belonged.
And I also ran away from home as a child 'cause it was abusive.
So I've got that scope as well.
It was parents who were failing.
So it wasn't a good environment anyway, let alone a child keeps coming back, and they're getting like new diagnosis, like dyslexia and that kind of thing.
(06:52):
And then it's you are just stupid.
You're stupid and you can't achieve anything going through that.
I wouldn't have got into maybe some of the situations that I got into.
And yeah, had more support.
And I think that's another reason why it's so important for ca 'cause those kids are out there.
And also when adults try to speak to you about it, like they know something's going on at home normally, the parents in the next room, can hear everything.
(07:17):
It's really nice to hopefully build a community where children can reach out and know that they're safe and then we can go to the relevant body as well.
I definitely think going to college, facing university or that kind of thing would've been a lot easier, if I'd been diagnosed a lot earlier.
(07:40):
I think you can see something out there that I can't see.
what you've been through to get to the point where you're at now you've just absolutely inspirational.
to be able to have open conversations and be vulnerable, about your experiences is going to help so many people realize that they're not alone and that there is help out there it's okay to be vulnerable, it's not okay that there were flaws in the system.
(08:08):
like having the parents in the next room when they could hear everything.
And, we've got personal experiences in our family where counselor, we tried to get a diagnosis for a family member.
it was just a really, lengthy, horrible process.
And it was like we were lying and no one would believe us.
And actually because girls mask things, more, and we're almost overlooked.
(08:36):
And it wasn't until the person was, 21 went through a private route and, ended up managing to get a diagnosis, of a DHD, autism and this calculator as well.
to have been let down through the system the whole way and to have been referred for counseling and it put down as anxiety and then the counselor to be talking.
(09:04):
About what they'd been confided with people that they shouldn't have been talking about it just breaches the trust and, Makes you wanna retreat and not get the help that you are entitled to deserve and should get.
if someone is in that situation where they're feeling that they need some additional support, that they, have been let down by the system, or they've been judged or they feel judged in the past and that they're not good enough, to access the support, what would your message be to them? To reach out to an adult you feel that you can trust or that you've got a connection with? Because not all adults are bad and they're not gonna go speak to your guardian, whoever your adult is.
(09:48):
Then I think that's the main thing.
Knowing that there's not gonna be a breach of trust.
I know that it's not gonna go back to that person that you're frightened of or you're not getting support from.
And yeah, and like I keep coming back to cad, but the adults are safe and they've been vetted these are adults that any child can trust because of the process that you've set up for us, Debbie.
(10:08):
I wish there was something like Cat around when I was a kid.
And I would've absolutely reached out 'cause dogs were my life because that was my bond and connection.
I only felt safe with my dog.
I know there's gonna be tons of other kids out there in the same situation and their dog is gonna be their world.
Interesting.
And, coming back as well to you mentioned at the beginning is Pride month as well.
(10:33):
It's not just with Neurodivergent children, but with anything I think that because we are all very passionate about dogs and our life really revolves around our dogs.
some days I really don't know how I would handle so many things.
Without the help of my dog while I understand that it's difficult, for a child of any age to go, how can I possibly talk to the dog trainer about the things that I'm going through.
(10:59):
But if anyone, if anyone is listening and they do feel they don't have anyone to talk to, but they know someone who is a cat professional, you can reach out to us.
We try our best to help.
We are not therapists, but we might be able to help to, even just make you feel a little bit better.
But also then we can try and help and find, The right people.
(11:21):
They have the ability to professionally help, the children.
Even if it's someone that is my next door neighbor kind of thing.
We do here stuff like that all the time, don't we? So it's difficult to go I don't know those people.
why should I trust them? when you don't have anyone else and you feel like you're all alone in the world.
Just so you know you're not.
(11:42):
And that's why as well, Tasha, about a month ago, I think now.
She sent me an email and said, why don't we do a course? 'cause pride month is coming up.
Why don't we do a course to, support, the LGBTQA Plus community? and I'm like, oh yeah, I'm for it.
So I started contact.
Some people realized that actually a course was a bit of a, an ambitious We did get excited there for a minute.
(12:07):
Might be something for the future though.
it was a bit tight to manage a course.
Because also we didn't just want to do it ourself.
We wanted involvement of other, professionals were, also in the different things.
there is, strength in numbers and the more of us, the better we talked about it again and, decided to go for a calendar kind of thing.
(12:27):
Brilliant.
Every day you would've a poster from, a professional in our field.
So we got, we got typing and asked all the people that we knew who wanted to take part and we ended up with more people that, that actually were needed for the, the day of the month.
So what I personally did.
You're gonna see in the kids around dog staff more than one speaker sometimes Natasha pointed something out by July that I didn't know.
(12:54):
Do you wanna explain that? Yeah.
We have June as Pride Month, but we also have Disability Pride month, in July.
So it actually runs two months.
Amazing.
just.
Because June is labeled as Pride Month, and it's a wonderful celebration and it's fabulous that everyone is, pulling together to celebrate.
(13:19):
It doesn't have to end there.
It doesn't have to end in July.
There's no reason why we can't.
these are the videos that you've put together.
I'm sharing them all year round You always wearing that.
Debbie Hair looks.
Great.
And I'm like, yeah, it's the first time I've been to the hairdresser since lockdown, so I had to do a video.
(13:47):
so we can, really just take a minute to thank you guys because to have put all this together wasn't something that happened overnight.
It took a lot of work in the background.
And not only have you collated all the videos, into one that we're gonna share.
At the end of pride month, you've done them all individually so that we can have one a day, and you've actually put them all onto a wonderful background as well, which is just fabulous.
(14:17):
thank you so much for making this happen.
why did you feel it was so important? I think because Debbie's neurodivergent course really touched me, and with the therapists that were a part of the course and learning from these different people.
for a lot of autistic or neurodivergent people, a lot of us are non-binary or trans we don't fit into understanding binary, like male and female I grew up not feeling like I was either.
(14:47):
And then also I didn't feel like fitted in with people because like you get to a certain age and people start having boyfriends and that kind of thing.
I'm Debbie, so I needed an attachment to somebody to develop a relationship from there rather than just going into a relationship, and being ace as well.
I'm not saying all autistic people, but a lot of us are knew I divergent.
(15:08):
And again, it's something scary and things are so different now.
It's wonderful.
But at the same time, there's also a really horrible side to it.
I shared a pride video, put some famous figures together and was like, happy Pride month on the first June.
on TikTok I got some really horrible comments, which I reported.
(15:29):
TikTok was like, no, it doesn't violate our community standards.
that's surprising though, At this day and age, be a bit more, careful with things what part should the social media platforms be playing in their accountability and how they take ownership for the vial things that they allow to be said.
(15:52):
it is mind blowing.
There was, a TikTok that came up yesterday where there was a lady who, Jo, you're frozen.
We want to know what happened to the lady.
While we wait for Joe, I also want to say I think for me not only the fact that we see a lot of people, who are, part of the community of the lgbtq, lgbtq a plus community and, and they're not accepted even within their family.
(16:24):
Or maybe they're even scared to come out say who they are, what they think, how they feel, And Oh, we lost her completely.
Do you think we're still Oh, we're still alive.
Hopefully she's coming back now.
It's just left the two of us.
But just to say that when I was growing up and I was growing up in Switzerland as well, which is a much smaller country and very, at least back then anyway, very backwards in many things.
(16:49):
All this was, there was no such thing as a pride model.
There was no such thing as pride.
you wouldn't have been proud having different opinions, from others.
We were just explaining a bit how it felt for me and the fact that because I grew up in Switzerland, is much smaller country where, the differences in, the way people love and the way people are It's tricky to be, to have different opinion in anything, but let alone, sexuality and all that.
(17:17):
And obviously I'm gonna be 45 on Monday we are not talking exactly yesterday, talking about 30 years ago or so.
Growing up with those kind of mentality and being I'm straight.
I've always known I was straight, I always fenced.
I always fenced the boys.
So I knew and I was being, I was happy, as Larry to be straight.
(17:38):
But I could see other kids in our school and it was obvious that they had different, view if you like or different, way of loving that I had, if you like.
And they had to pretend that they were engaged, that they weren't, whatever, and all the new terminology as well, they didn't exist.
So as a mom, I'm speaking to a lot of parents out there and to a lot of kids as well.
(18:03):
Please be patient with us because it's not we don't want to learn new things.
It's just, it is tricky to know all the terminology.
And even today, my daughter and I were watching a video and I wasn't sure of maybe what gender the singer was.
And so my teenager said.
What gender? Do you know, what gender they identify as? And then she said, oh a girl.
(18:28):
And then she goes, oh, mommy's such a weirdo.
I'm trying to understand just want to know more.
But it's tricky for us as well coming into new terms and new way of seeing the world.
I think it's important to respect people like me as well, that we're just trying to understand new words and everything, open doors to.
(18:50):
Anyone who respects each other as well, and they can love whoever they want, as long as, as well that they're logged back, if don't enforce your, I think it's the same with all, areas where there's been prejudices in the past.
(19:11):
for example, my children are mixed race, and when we first moved to a new area my, daughter who was four at the time, was called some appalling racist names when, we were watching playbacks of Footballers Wives, I dunno if you've seen it on, I think the, it was like 2004.
(19:32):
It was recorded and the language that they're using, and I think the football industry as a whole is still quite, that I don't, I can't think of a single footballer who's come out at all.
But I think that.
Things have progressed massively, but there are still people.
(19:52):
If I say of our generation, Debbie, did I say 45? No, I meant 21.
Yeah.
that's, I say 29 and I'm sticking there.
nevermind.
But I think, it is okay to ask questions and it is okay to be curious and to, come from a place of love rather than saying words that may be, offensive Questioning and saying, what would be the appropriate term for me to use in this situation? Because I wouldn't want to ever offend anyone.
(20:27):
exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what if you hear, if someone uses language that isn't appropriate, do you pull them up on it and say, did you know that could be seen as quite offensive? Yeah, I do particularly, because it's like you said, Debbie, it's hard to ask questions when you're not in the community.
It is hard to ask questions for myself being non-binary and my pronouns are they them.
(20:51):
But when people refer to me as like a female, I'm like technically, I am biologically.
it's having that patience with people.
So when I reached out to you by email, Debbie I know how you are and everything.
But if that had been somebody else, I wouldn't have been able to say like the lgbtq plus community because of there's quite a lot of homophobic people out there still.
(21:15):
And a lot of adults dunno how to.
Talk about it without using horrible slurs if you look back to the eighties with Stonewall, and all of this amazing things that people have done through the years, even in the fifties, it is important to remember that because the older people in the LGBT community, they're also quite happy to talk to people and it's less of that fear.
(21:38):
So what my generation has.
We've been supported by the Gen X who rose up and fought for us, but it wasn't perfect.
And then it is really sad.
each generation it's getting a little bit better.
But then Brianna J's happened and now it's like we're going back beyond the eighties it's, not very nice.
Getting the comments on TikTok and stuff, I was like, I'm not engaging with you 'cause you're clearly trolls.
(22:03):
But if that was somebody that I knew, or if it was another dog professional and they said something, I'd absolutely pull them up on it and say, this is offensive.
This is why it's offensive.
Because I think people need to be kinder because so many children are getting murdered as well.
in the US either kids or young adults every week.
(22:25):
And instead they're gonna try and stop gay marriage a lot of people had to leave Florida because of the trans-gender stuff going on, and a teacher got sacked for standing up for transgender kids.
And the world's going backwards quite a lot.
And I'd be really.
Proud if a dog community at least could stay stable and be actually like you.
(22:47):
Be who you want, you love who you want, because if you're loving somebody, that's a beautiful thing.
And I don't think anybody should be taking that away from another person and saying what Natasha says as well I know that none of us live in the us but unfortunately the US is a very powerful country.
a lot of the time, they lead, things, sometimes are good.
(23:11):
I love a good Hollywood movie like anyone else, but when is the negative things is really scary thing that they might, influence and they've already influenced other countries.
Just because they are a powerful country.
So if anyone is watching over there that they can do something, please do it.
Even if it's just one thing, like we've done this video, we're doing these videos every day.
(23:32):
the talk behind this thing as well, when we were talking about Natasha as well.
if this one video reaches one person wouldn't that be awesome? That one person that needed it that day, that's it.
We've done it.
Even if it's just that one person that is, feels supported, feels elevated, feel empowered because of one of the messages.
(23:57):
We've done it, which just feels like they belong and that they're not, outsiders or on the edge of the rest of the world.
Exactly.
We're all together.
And we shouldn't feel that way because we all have opinions, we're all different in our ways.
for instance, I myself, I'm a foreigner here.
But I've been welcomed by so many.
(24:19):
It's not always been, super easy, but I guess I am lucky to be white, to be honest, because if I hadn't been, I probably wouldn't have it as easy as I had in some respect.
But then again, as soon as I open my mouth, everyone knows, you're know English, are you? Yeah.
But you can say Mario like no one else.
(24:40):
Mario, Mario thing.
Everyone was like, I'm gonna get you to say, Mario and Luigi voice, note it to me so I could listen to it every morning just to make me smile.
Start the day off.
Do I need to call you every day? Mario.
Luigi, get up.
No, you can't say it.
Happy.
No.
(25:01):
Mario, Luigi.
Get up.
Then wake up.
Like why do I fancy spaghetti and pizza for breakfast? I wonder.
Ice cream.
Just going back to, pride month and the amazing stuff that you're doing, to raise awareness and to, just make a stand really the what's, not acceptable and actually need to make our voices heard Support other people in speaking out living their truth and being themselves and feeling happy to, comfortable to be able to express, who they really authentically are.
(25:41):
why should anyone ever be made to feel they can't be their true selves, because of the amazing stuff you've been doing.
you said there's been a little bit of negativity on TikTok.
Have you had much other response from the videos? No, not really.
So YouTube, nothing's occurred we're not seeing likes or support apart from like in Andrew Hale's group.
(26:07):
Yes.
We've been quite a lot of support there and you, Joe, of course, commented as well, and boosted it up.
But this is a problem as well because when we was reaching out to people, and when I spoke to people about doing stuff for pride we don't have to 'cause we're accepting.
it goes without saying.
But that's really unhelpful because.
(26:28):
It is like a get out clause and then we don't know who we're actually safe around.
People saying, oh it goes without saying pop pride stuff or transgender stuff on your content.
Like maybe once a month will be really helpful because on my website, the first thing is hi, I'm t Atwood and I'm listening.
I'm that and the other, and everybody's welcome no matter who you are, how you identify, that kind of thing.
(26:54):
And I think that's where, as an industry, we need to step up and say, actually I am supportive.
Because it makes you feel like, oh, is that person actually supportive? And going back again, sorry to be Brianna Jay.
That child struggled in school.
If you watch documentary with her mom, like they was already dealing with teenage problems and like her mom, was a single mom raising the kids.
(27:19):
Brianna was struggling with eating disorders, which we know can.
It is like comorbidity 'cause of like you are having this problem with your identity, you're getting bullied at school.
an eating disorder means that I can control what's going on around me.
we've got to stop this.
that family could have been helped a lot more.
And then maybe kids wanna end up in these situations that are really dire.
(27:41):
And I don't think it's enough anymore just to say it goes without same because I work with a lot of clients who work with me because of that little paragraph on my website because I know that they're safe and I think more people should do it.
But yeah, I don't know if it's 'cause I'm disabled as well, Yeah, so you get that side of it.
But again, disabled people don't feel that they can reach out to whoever, and I think it's really important that we show this and make it a normal thing to see on our Facebook business pages and our website so that then people can go.
(28:15):
I know I'm gonna be safe with this person and I want to set up a little interview with them, see how we get on.
And then maybe you get a client out of it who feels safe and by word of mouth, you getting lots of people coming to you so it actually works in your best interest.
When you get a bad comment, but I, 'cause sometimes, and I, it is fine for whether what we reached out to, to, join this project and they refuse.
(28:39):
That's perfectly fine.
one of the things that seemed to be also a little bit the, common fear was what if I post something where if I post a video and get, haters and it might happen, I kept thinking, what if, I post my video And someone, starts being horrible.
I'm thinking to me, in my page and whatever is that one video, maybe two videos, they get the haters and I can just brush it off and not engage and let it go.
(29:06):
And to me would be that one day on social media, that one comment, maybe two.
Before the people in this community could be something that goes on every single way of their lives and maybe even by the people that they.
Love the most and they're supposed to be protected by.
Again, no judgment, no one has to do anything they don't wanna do.
(29:28):
That's perfectly fine.
But maybe have a little think when you're thinking, oh, should I, or should I not post something in favor of pride month or in favor of this community or any other community? When you're worried about that one comment, and I understand that 'cause it's horrible to get haters, think that for you would be that one comment.
And you can even delete it if you want to.
'cause Facebook allowed you, or social media allow you to delete comments like that.
(29:53):
But think about those people in those community and with those, religions or whatever it is, how they feel every day of their life getting.
Hated haters messaging or even to their faces as it happened to, to your, yourself, Joe.
It must have been horrible and ease.
Ease.
When someone has a little comment to say, and it has happened to me so many times, Just because I'm here.
(30:17):
If I hadn't been here, it would've been me as well.
So it doesn't matter what community you want to help out, reach out to.
Just do it.
It's that one message.
It's not gonna, hurt you very much in long term.
If anything, it's gonna help you to feel better, to do something nice for other people and hopefully to help, someone even if it makes a difference to one person who sees a video, it's worth it.
(30:42):
But it's also about standing up for what you feel is right.
with the dogs.
I will stand up and advocate for force free methods consent based handling and, cognitive letter rehabilitation.
And I will stand up for all the things I feel very strongly about, because it's black and white in my head, what's right and wrong in terms of how, they're treated as completely freethinking.
(31:11):
Beings who are captives, And with this, it's no different to me It is right to stand up for people who need us because they're being excluded.
And not part the rest of society, which is just.
I'm not allowed to say naughty words.
You can do it with kindness as well.
(31:33):
I had a lovely walk in Bournemouth, do you remember that day? It was like puppy day, wasn't it? so many It was one that just run.
that was that.
Where did that one come from? Where's that one gone the guardians and inside you screaming.
Then you go, what? ever so professional, ever polite.
I can't remember the exact things you said, but you were lovely to the, there was that one, that couple with a little pp, the puppy just went justed.
(32:00):
It got his whistle.
Oh my goodness.
That was just, I dunno, quite what happened that day because there were so many dogs on the beach.
It was like they knew we were around.
if you can't reach the guardian, then you can't help the dog.
(32:21):
I always think that training the humans is more important than training the dogs because the dogs already know.
We just need to make sure that we're continuing our learning and each dog teaches us something different as well as all of the academic education.
It's so similar, isn't it? as you said, we know we want to treat dogs and we want to help them, and we want to make sure that they have a happy, healthy, and the best life they can possibly have.
(32:49):
It's the same thing, isn't it? if we can reach out to, the family that has adopted, dogs, and if we can just help that one doggie, isn't that what we want after all? But yeah, the concept is exactly the same.
So let's hope that we can help, kids and adults out there, not only children, to feel proud of who they are.
(33:11):
We are running out of time.
Have you got any final, words, Tasha? it would be really nice if our industry could start stepping up a little bit and showing people that they are safe like I do on my one consult, by Zoom.
And it's okay me working with these people, but I can't work with everybody.
Whereas if I could safely say, you can go to this professional and I promise that you'll be safe, and they won't ask any, questions that shouldn't be asking that kind of thing, that would actually be really nice.
(33:42):
'cause like I say, when we can look after the Guardian who's the primary caregiver, then we are looking out for the dog and protecting the dog by protecting that person.
And we've got to understand that.
You may have privilege 'cause of the color of your skin but every single person is on a different journey and maybe battling different things.
So I think it's just important to genuinely be nice and be kind to people I think when you are positive and kind, it pulls people into you who need that help and a little bit of guidance as well, just to feel safe.
(34:19):
And then you'll be surrounded by people that you actually want to be surrounded by as well.
Yeah.
And you are in alignment with your values We also believe that they should be standing up for what's right.
Absolutely.
Any final words from you, Debbie? Just that, whatever you do remember, our kids are always watching us.
Hopefully by being kind, by being respectful, and, remember our children are, looking at what we're doing if we are this kind of nice people, hopefully we'll also be raising lovely young.
(34:50):
If anyone wants to reach out to you, Tasha, where can they get in touch? If they go to my website, which is mischief.com,
it's abbreviated.
that's got all of my socials on there.
And.
Where people can reach out on the platform they feel most comfortable with.
Amazing.
And Debbie, where can people find your contact info? you can go on, kids around dogs.co
(35:11):
uk and you can find there.
Then also the different platforms of where we are on Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube.
Please follow us on YouTube.
subscribe to our YouTube channel.
The kids on Dogs one.
(35:31):
Brilliant.
thank you so much for coming on to talk to us, this evening.
Just an absolute joy to have you both here.
Oh, thank you.
I hoping you're able to join us on future podcasts too thank you from the bottom of all of the dog industry's hearts for what you've been doing to raise awareness for inclusivity, this pride month.
(35:52):
Really appreciate all that you've done.
Thank you very much.
we'll see.
Everyone watching next week for season two, episode two.
Thank you for listening to the Dog Expert Podcast, the podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
If you've enjoyed this episode, do come and let us know in our free Facebook group for dog lovers Ethical Dog Training with Canine principles.
(36:17):
That way we can make more content like this that you'll love.
We would love for you to leave a review on here and hit subscribe so that you never miss an episode.
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