August 9, 2025 • 45 mins
🚨 NEW EPISODE: Bomb Proof, Bullet Proof 🐶🧠🛡️
What if you could raise a dog that’s emotionally unshakeable and physically resilient just by focusing on the first 12 weeks?
Today on The Dog Expert Podcast, we’re joined by Dr Zoolittle to talk:
💥 Bomb-proof = no separation anxiety, calm confidence
🧬 Bullet-proof = cellular, biological resilience built from day one
⏳ 8–20 weeks = the most powerful window you’ll ever get
🎧 Whether you have a puppy, or plan to, don’t miss this one.
#PuppyTraining #CanineHealth #DogDevelopment #BombProofBulletProof #TheDogExpertPodcast #ForceFree #CanineWellness #PuppyResilience
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
Welcome to the Dog Expert Podcast.
The podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
Powered by canine principles.com.
Helping passionate dog people go from feeling unsure and overwhelmed to confident, compassionate, and science savvy through a rich library of online courses and formal qualifications.
(00:33):
Each week on the podcast, we dive deep into the real, raw and rewarding world of dogs.
This isn't about obedience.
This is about understanding because dogs aren't problems to solve.
They're free thinking, sentient beings to connect with.
(00:55):
Hello, good evening and welcome to the Dog Expert Podcast.
This episode is all about how we are going to make dogs bombproof and bulletproof.
this is a really important stage of a dog's life that is often overlooked that we are going to be taking a deep dive into this evening with our fantastic.
(01:20):
Stick guest Penny.
Who is Dr.
Zli? Amazing name.
So Penny is joining us, to talk about how we can make the first 12 weeks after bringing a puppy home.
from age eight weeks to 20 weeks, the best we possibly can what we can actually do in that time to shape the dog.
(01:44):
And make them emotionally calm and physically resilient from a biology cellular level for many years to come.
Penny is a world-class longevity zoologist.
She's a zoo consultant, a cognitive ethologist, and a pet health concierge She blends cutting edge longevity science.
(02:07):
With wild animal strategies to help dogs not just survive, but thrive into their senior years.
What we are going to be looking at this evening is what Penny calls a bombproof and bulletproof concept, so dogs who are emotionally steady and biologically resilient from the inside out.
(02:29):
Let's bring Penny on from backstage so she can introduce herself properly.
Hey Penny.
Hi Joe.
Hey, thank you for jumping on the podcast with me.
A pleasure.
Always gimme any chance to talk about dogs.
So I gave a bit of an intro about you, but I did actually see a few things on your website.
(02:52):
that I didn't touch on.
There are some really cool things that you've done.
Not least having your Hair done by some amazing animals.
That's the one that always seems to grab people's attention.
that was probably one of the happiest memories as well.
I was training raccoons in one of the zoos, and it was.
Free contact and we had great relationship when they were doing some of their, basic training.
(03:16):
it's nice to end on a play session, the free play.
I would then sit down and allow them to engage how they would like what they wanted to do was do my hair.
So I had raccoons one on either shoulder stroking their fingers through and mushing it up and, wetting their hands the way they do.
And there it was.
That was my raccoon hair.
Wow, that's fantastic.
(03:36):
And what a cool choice of all the things that they could have chosen to do.
They wanted to be with you and do your hair.
How wonderful.
I guess a really good place for us to start is maybe around how the Bombproof Bulletproof concept came about in the first place.
(03:59):
That's an easy one actually, because it's the solution to the problem that I see over and over again.
Now, I started out as a welfare zoologist improving animal welfare in captivity.
that comes down to what are the humans in that equation, deciding on behalf of the animal.
'cause that's effectively the result, is the care that they have and therefore the quality of life that they have.
(04:22):
Therefore.
Their welfare.
It was, that's where I started and then I expanded to include the body, because a huge part of welfare is how well or sick you are, how free you are in your movement, how engaged you are with the world.
I would just see consistently In consultations and working with zoos, behavior, problem, behavior, problem, behavior, problem.
(04:46):
Physical problem, right? And so that sounds normal.
That sounds of course that's the same as everybody and it is.
But if you wanna do something about that, rather than just fight fires all the time and just wait for the next bad thing to happen and then fix that, and then wait for the next one to happen and then fix that and constantly be chasing your tail and constantly having welfare going like this, you could actually say hang on.
(05:10):
What? What's driving? The body to go out of system, what's driving behavior to become abnormal, let's fix that.
And then downstream doesn't happen anymore.
So the question was, when do you need to fix that? And do you need to do it once or a hundred times, so I dug into those questions, but it was really just a case of, listen, I care so much about the quality of life that animal has with you, and that determines the relationship that you have with your pet.
(05:38):
So if it's compromised because the behavior is off.
you're always stressing about health because there's vomit everywhere everyone's getting bitten that's not a joyful, relaxed, loving relationship.
That's not the dog you dreamed of, right? This is now a challenge.
So what if we could give you the dog you ordered kind of thing, right? And then you know what to do.
(06:00):
To have that perfect, as perfect as it can get scenario for the rest of their life.
So that was the solution.
Amazing.
And I think for people listening in, maybe if we look a bit about defining what a bombproof puppy, the kind of emotional foundations, and then moving on to what the Bulletproof puppy, the physical resilience side of things, what that actually looks like.
(06:26):
So how would you define a bombproof dog? this is a word I actually stole from the zoo, because we would say, oh, this, when you're going into the zoo, like with new zookeeper coming in or whatever, who's who in the zoo and what's going on, right? It's this one's bombproof.
Like you can just throw anything at this one and they're absolutely fine, but just watch your fingers with that one, or whatever.
So this word became part of my language.
(06:48):
So the way I describe it with respect to dogs is confidence it.
means secure and safe in their own skin, aware of who they are and what's expected of them.
Knowing how to engage in this human world, which is a foreign culture to them.
Being biddable, someone can ask you to do something right? Please sit down over here.
(07:09):
And the dog says, I know exactly what to do with that request.
I know what it is.
I know what I'm expected to.
So there's the biddable thing.
there's the polite manners.
How do I greet other people? How do I greet other dogs? what's expected of me in this scenario? So that everyone's happy, no one's hackles go up, nobody gets yelled at.
Then there's the, really confident and well behaved is the best way of summing it up.
(07:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
if we can lay those emotional foundations so that the puppy grows into a calm, confident, secure dog, because they've been given agency and positive social experiences and they've got that emotional safety, that's going to mean that.
(07:51):
Some of the more common behavioral issues that we see, like separation, anxiety, reactivity.
Fear responses.
They're going to be minimized because they've got those firm foundations rooted in emotional safety.
Correct.
And then if we look at the bulletproof side of things, the physical resilience now, this really fascinates me from that cellular strength for kind of long-term health.
(08:17):
As I'm signed up to learn from you, because this is on my geek level.
So if we are looking at gut health and immune system development and all of the nervous system regulation, is that what you are talking about when you're talking about a bulletproof puppy? So bulletproof, yes and no.
(08:39):
imagine you're going into a war zone, whether it's you or a dog, You're gonna have some body armor, you're gonna have a visor, probably a helmet.
You're gonna have some padding in various places because you're going in and there's could be a stray bullet somewhere.
There could be some metal that flies up in the window, like a war zone is a dangerous place.
And we go in, not just in our swimsuit, going, oh, it's fine, that's the concept.
(09:00):
We can give that level of protection to our pets when we address the.
Basic pillars of their lifestyle.
conversely, the majority of dogs are actually waltzing through that war zone in their proverbial swimsuit.
They're vulnerable to anything and everything that comes their way because they haven't been set up biologically at the beginning.
(09:25):
And there's a number of ways where that can fall apart, not the least of which is, have you been cesarean sectioned, or have you been vaginally? Birthed, right? That's number one.
Two, did you get your colostrum from mom on the first couple of days, right? Without those things.
So it already happens.
There's always just some story right at the beginning, long before the eight weeks when you're gonna bring puppy home.
(09:46):
But when it's you now in the driver's seat, you have so much control over what is their biology going to do, We being the proverbial pet parent or a zookeeper we as the humans around the animal have collectively about 90% control over the health destiny of our animals.
(10:09):
Which is to say that the genetics play a component but only about 10%, and it varies a little bit species to species.
And in fact, dogs are slightly more genetically likely because they're so bred inbred really.
Sometimes in the creation of all these different breeds, the most docked around with, species on the planet, right? There's more morphology changes within dog than there is in any other animal, so they're a little bit higher.
(10:33):
So we say safely go 10% with a dog, it's usually about seven for everyone else.
that means there's a lot on the table, You've got 90% control over whether they catch this, get this, develop that, have those symptoms or not.
So knowing that as a pet parent, it suddenly changes the ball game 'cause it's not a dice roll.
(10:53):
Oh, I got a lucky one, or I didn't get a lucky one.
you are in the driver's seat and if you want your dog to be safe, healthy, protected, and live a long time, they actually all go together, right? You get one, you get all four at the same time.
So why not do what it takes to get one of them, and then both of you are gonna enjoy that for as long as possible.
So Bulletproof is really talking about having those shields up because that's your immune system.
(11:17):
That is forward facing because no doctor, no vet, no longevity zoologist, no pet parent, no wonder drug, no.
Holistic therapy, doesn't matter.
Nothing's gonna heal your dog and protect your dog.
Nothing accept their immune system.
And if we neglect that and not have the shields up, then of course they're gonna get.
(11:39):
Infectious diseases, acquire injury.
have mental health problems, gut dysbiosis, weak joints, allergies, the whole thing.
And that's what we see over and over in the vet clinics around the world.
There's the same, top 10 issues that come through all the time.
And the root cause every single time is because those seven pillars of longevity, lifestyle, that wrap around a dog that you are in control of, haven't been set up to be.
(12:04):
What a dog needs.
It's been set up to be what marketing told you? A company, a vet, what's convenient for you, right? Valid.
But if you prioritizing welfare is the number one priority.
It's not good enough.
So if your welfare is number one, then you've gotta look at those decisions and say of course I'm gonna feed my dog.
No one's debating that.
(12:25):
Whether you feed over here or over here, you're feeding your dog, but are you feeding a raw species appropriate diet? Are you making sure the daily essential nutrients are there and that you've got purified water? Or are you feeding out of the tap with all the junk that's in tap water and a highly processed diet that involves at least 50% carbohydrate, which they don't need, right? It is pretty stark difference when you lay out a few dot points, This will set them up for 20 plus years of health.
(12:50):
It is amazing when you lay it out like that.
It is just no brainer yet.
So many, pet parents and myself included in the past, learn, because we live and we learn there's no shame on people who don't know Any different because just by watching this, you're educating yourself and your dog will live longer as a result.
(13:15):
how with the bombproof bulletproof approach between eight to 20 weeks, that window, golden window for the brain, the body, the behavior, what's actually happening developmentally during that time.
Great question.
So there's 4 phases if you like.
(13:37):
You've got the neonatal, we're really a baby.
Then we have the juvenile window, then we have the adolescent window, and then we have the adult window, and the body and the brain are both doing different things in each of those.
Four zones.
there's a continuum where the brain will go from here to here in that period of time, and then the next epoch it's gonna be doing something different but also still progressing.
(13:58):
So from A couple of those skills point of view at around about 12 weeks, to around about 24, 26 weeks.
You've got the juvenile period.
But prior to that, you have this young baby whose brain is like a sponge and whose body's growing like a weed, and that has to be catered for.
(14:21):
over time, that will slow down.
But it depends on the breed as to when they reach maturity or adulthood.
The way I look at it as a zoologist is probably a little bit different from the way most people would approach it, 'cause I say there's four tiers to maturity.
You ha.
And they happen at different points.
it's the point at which all four of those are in existence that I say, now your dog is an adult.
(14:45):
Prior to that, they're a sub-adult, or in adolescence if they've got three out of the four or two then they're tracking, but they're not an adult yet.
So sexual maturity tends to be the one that happens first, right? And so sexually mature means now you can go and breed.
But does that make you an adult? No, he really does not.
And you just look at any 15-year-old and human and say, it makes sense.
So there's sexual maturity.
(15:06):
That's physical maturity.
Like when does the body stop growing? When is it reached full flesh out, and then there's emotional and Cognitive.
So those are the four things.
the brain's gonna get to a point where it's okay, now I've acquired the maximum amount of cognition development that I can as a domestic species.
the process of domestication is actually a retardation of brain development to prevent an animal from reaching full wild adulthood.
(15:38):
That's why domestic animals have a dependency flavor and that willingness to interact, bond, and connect with the human, because we are taking over the role of protector, parent leader, decision maker, right? Depending on their particular species.
Social structuring, okay? They don't really reach independence.
(16:05):
they can become feral.
But don't become wild because their brain can't develop that last percentage from domestication to a full wild brain.
So as we take dogs through their age brackets, they're gonna stop at various points on that cognitive maturity pathway, depending on their breed.
(16:28):
we use the wolf, obviously, because that's the dog ancestor we say that's what 10 outta 10 looks like, or that's what, a hundred percent Look, whatever you wanna measure, right? But that's what the model is for full wild maturity for the dog model.
if you're a husky.
You can probably do about 95% of a wolf's behavioral repertoire.
There's a little fraction that the wolves have an edge on that.
(16:49):
A husky can't.
But a husky is essentially the next thing they're gonna get the most cognitive development of any breed, and we see that because they've got the ability to do the long stare.
They don't bark, they howl.
They communicate the way an adult barking is.
that's barking.
That's what that is in dog world, Howling silence and body language is full adult communication and it's really only the husky that gets up there.
(17:15):
So everyone else, every breed is gonna be somewhere on that continuum down to the ones that are, the most dependent, needy, and have a lot more of those neonatal features.
So the really big eyes in proportion to skull, right? You look at a child, a human baby, right? And you see the eyes and the big head compared to the body and very long, floppy ears.
(17:40):
'Cause adult ears are pointy triangles.
And so if your dog's got pointy triangles, they're much closer to being a wolf.
They've got further to go on their cognitive development than a floppier dog.
A floppier dog is gonna be younger cognitively.
Anyway, we are getting in the weeds there, but it was just, the getting to maturity looks different for every dog, and we can never expect our dog to get to the point of having the common sense of a wolf because they can't.
(18:04):
They literally can't.
So that's why it's so important for us to lead them in the decisions of what to eat, when to eat, where to go, how to stay clean, all these kind of life, I call them the seven pillars of animal longevity.
in the wild, they would've all reached that stage sooner or later, and know how to work cooperatively to support each other, to keep fulfilling those things all the time.
(18:28):
And that, because they're all wolf, right? But we have to learn that as a human because we do it our way, which is human not dog way, which is what they need.
So when they're in the world and they're that family unit, their brains are developed in a way that they're able to survive in that situation, compared to.
(18:52):
domestic dogs who are captives and they're unable to choose.
they're not able to choose what they're eating.
where they're going to roam what time they're going to wake up or any of the decisions around their lives.
We are controlling them all.
It's really important that we're introducing.
(19:14):
Choice into their everyday environment.
But what we're doing with the Bulletproof, concept is really making sure that we're providing them with choices, but they're all positive choices that are going to set them up for longevity.
Going to minimize any behavior challenges after the 12 month mark.
(19:37):
Make sure that they've got the immune system support from the inside out that they need.
What practical tips if there was a pet parent watching this.
Would you recommend that they take, So when I teach this with a client, we go from adopted puppy to Bombproof and Bulletproof dog.
we can do that for.
(19:58):
Either the juvenile period only, or juvenile and adolescent once they get that out, they're now equipped, you don't have to do 18 months or 12 months You can stick with the 12 weeks and it's a game changer.
what I Typically do then is take people through, especially in the early stages, the week by week, the speed of change in development and growth is lightning.
(20:18):
So you have to be doing, you have to be looking for what's, what do I introduce this week? it's really a full-time job from week eight to week 20.
the needs of that dog are high and it doesn't need to take you all day to do it.
But because they're young, it's on quick repeat, They've got bladder control for 30 minutes.
So you're gonna be popping in and out a lot, or going to the puppy pads it's not like you can just set and forget and do it one time and then come back because they're on a quick cycle So it's intensive in the early stages.
(20:48):
week by week there's quick changes and knowing how.
Be prepared for what's coming next and set yourself and your dog up for success by being ready is a huge part of it, if it's gonna take you a week to catch up for where you were last week, you are now two weeks.
Do you know what I mean? Like it goes fast.
So that's one layer of things And there are what I call the six essential skills, and the 12 key decisions.
(21:11):
And so you wanna be very mindful of there are six skills that are imperative.
Not just optional extras, but imperative for a dog to acquire in this timeframe.
Because there's a, there's these things called the critical windows.
Probably most people have heard of that now, right? So there's a critical learning development window where the brain is like a sponge.
(21:32):
It's completely plastic.
Anything that goes in is instantly learned and absorbed and retained and it's just peak learning moment.
There comes a time when that comes down, like a ton of bricks.
that window is shut.
That doesn't mean they can never learn again, The old you can't teach an old dog new tricks kind of thing, whatever, right? That's a fallacy.
But what happens now is the brain is going to be resistant.
(21:56):
It is because that's a safety mechanism for survival to be suspicious of something new.
Before we were like, everything's fine, mom and daddy, you look after me.
I just learn everything.
the only thing in the world is, play and sleep.
So our brain is very receptive.
There's no filter.
And then we get older and it's hang on a minute.
now if you wanna train, you can absolutely train.
(22:17):
The dog is begging to be trained.
They want to be stimulated.
They want to learn.
They're gonna learn whether you teach them or not.
They're learning through observation.
pattern and behavior, But are they learning what you want them to learn? And do you have that on a voice command, To elicit that behavior, which is a blessing for your dog.
Because what they don't want is insecurity and confusion.
(22:39):
So the, I know what you want from me, right? And you are going there.
Oh, I just wish you would do this thing.
So that's what we wanna avoid.
We go through these six basic life skills that set the dog up for success in living in a human world.
Imagine you're an exchange student to, rural China, Do you know what the etiquette is? Do you know what the language is? Can you fit into a family environment and never put a toe outta line in terms of your manners and have you offended somebody and have you got all your needs met? I bet you can't.
(23:11):
if you were gonna do that, you would have coaching, you'd have language classes, you'd have etiquette school.
You would have practice runs, you'd do role play.
You would figure it out.
And then by the time you were going to China and living in the rural countryside, you'd be equipped.
And you go, oh, your nervous system will be back down in the parasympathetic, and you'd be loving life taking lots of pictures, right? But when you are like, holy heck, I have no idea.
(23:32):
I don't even know if I'm gonna get mugged down this way here, or I'm gonna fall off a bridge going you're autonomic nervous system's going through the roof, can you really learn and concentrate and do great things in that moment? No, of course you can't.
You're in resistance.
So it's a case of let's give them the basic skills they need to live in a human culture successfully, confidently, which results in happily.
(23:56):
And then look at the 12 decisions that we're making in that early timeframe of their life, and make them based on the best possible welfare requirements that fit in with your ethic budget or location in the world, So it's not prescriptive, but it's things to be thinking about rather than just following what an ad on TV told you to do or some outdated science or from the human perspective.
(24:20):
Are there tips? Yes, there's bazillions of them, which is why I can't list them all off.
But we can dive into one or two if you wanna do them I give you a framework because then it will make sense.
we're gonna say 12 decisions, six life skills, seven pillars of animal longevity.
we're gonna go week by week, layering each of those things.
It sounds complicated.
(24:40):
It's really not.
It's probably easier for the pet parent with this than it is to be, I don't know what I'm doing.
And why is the dog eating all the socks why is there still pee in the bathroom? Nobody likes being in that place.
having a framework makes it so much easier for everyone.
Absolutely.
And also the anxieties you feel as a new.
(25:05):
Pet parent to a little puppy.
The pressure, the responsibility that you've got to do your best by this puppy, surrounded by, conflicting advice online, not knowing who to believe, what's to believe.
And you've got well-meaning, friends and family, giving you every single experience they've ever had with a puppy.
(25:28):
And then you've got the vet.
And then you've got behaviorists and not knowing which ones are good, which ones are not good.
It really is a time of, confusion for many pet parents.
So to have an ethical framework that they can follow will keep their heart rates down, which will have a positive effect on the puppy as well.
(25:48):
One thing that I see a lot with new puppies in a home is, it is flooding and over exposure.
Yes.
And overstimulation.
If, I think it's really important to stress to anyone listening that each dog is so individual, they've got their own individual, needs their own individual experiences, in that first eight weeks and their own requirements.
(26:19):
Although there are key foundation points and key areas that you'll be able to focus on, it almost doesn't matter how the puppy's behaving.
It's how you are reacting or acting.
That is really important.
To make sure that puppy gets consistency, across the board.
So whether that's consistency with outstanding nutrition, specific for their age or whether it's consistency with your cues, your body language.
(26:49):
Have you got any top tips for people around, how they can maintain.
The way that they're behaving and the way that they're acting to keep their heart rates down.
Remember why you got a puppy in the first place to love and have fun and share your life together.
(27:11):
Anytime we feel an emotion that is expressed chemically on our skin.
we look at dogs and say, oh, it's like they know this is a bad person or a good person.
They seem to know that you're in a good mood or a bad mood, they're smelling these emotions that we are feeling.
if we cry, happy tears.
The chemistry is very different from if we're crying heartbreak tears.
you can actually chemically look at the signature and say, This was a happy person.
(27:34):
the chemistry is coming out of our body and it layers up on our skin.
our dogs are able to have a scent blueprint map of what our day has been, and if we're still carrying the stress on the top layer, the most recent one, What are we emitting at this moment? They'll mimic that because they're a social species and they wanna fit in.
(27:56):
So when you are like, your dog's gonna be like, holy heck, what's the threat? we're clearly under attack.
I don't understand what's going on.
I have no idea what I'm supposed to do, so I'm just gonna stress out as well.
it's not conducive for anybody.
If you're finding it difficult, your patience is stretched.
You are stressed out.
Go and do something that you love.
Walk away.
(28:17):
By you leaving the room, you are diminishing the charge in the atmosphere.
You can go and do something that's pleasurable for you, which will set you up for success to then walk back in and then say, oh my gosh, you are so cute.
I forgot you were cute 10 minutes ago when I was mad at you.
But look at you now.
Let's have a little cuddle.
we say this to zoo trainers all the time.
(28:37):
if you are in a stressful situation and a tiger's not cooperating and you are feeling like err like that, you do not wanna face off with a tiger.
And the tiger doesn't want you to face off with them either.
People get hurt so controlling your emotions as a trainer is critically important 'cause they do transmit and open the door for big mistakes that can be hard to mend.
(28:58):
There's a period in the dog's life, from around, Seven to 14 weeks, you have the peak desensitization time.
desensitization is, let me show you stimuli, but show you that it's safe so you don't have to be afraid of it.
you're not gonna develop a firework phobia, you're not gonna develop a hatred of the postman, you're not gonna develop, write all of those things.
(29:20):
Okay? the acquisition of fear starts to come in the second half of that timeframe.
before then there is no fear.
It's oh, I'm just a baby.
Everyone will protect me.
There's nothing to be afraid of.
When you get a little bit older, then it's like there was a bad experience.
Someone trot on your tail by mistake.
You're gonna remember that now.
And now you've got a tail, not a tail phobia, but you are like super hypervigilant of people walking around you because you had your tail squished.
(29:44):
that becomes an acquired learned behavior that makes for an edgy, jumpy, switchy dog.
So we can help them unlearn that.
But these are the experiences that we wanna avoid, because they can start to be retained and then set the scene for a whole cascade of patterns.
Now accidents will happen.
A tail will occasionally get trotted on, Or whatever it is, a car will backfire that you had no control over it's knowing.
(30:08):
Okay, that seemed like a super minor thing for me to have a car backfire in the street.
But look at the dogs, right? Pete on the floor so it's okay, as an intelligent pet parent, I'm gonna note that and say.
That was a big deal for them.
This is the age bracket that they're in.
Therefore, this could be a problem.
It's time to fix it right now.
(30:29):
And so you go grab some toys and some treats and you do a little play session and you calm everybody down.
If you've got a grounding mat or a device that is gonna help reset the autonomic nervous system to parasympathetic, then you can use the, so it is a case of knowing.
What you can do and what you have on hand to do, and you only need five, 10 minutes.
(30:50):
This is not like four hours of hard work, but doing the 10 minutes right then and there will be game changer for a dog that doesn't develop, like walking phobias, like people walking around them, Oh, there's so much I want to talk to.
I know.
Such a juicy topic.
one thing that we touched on when we were backstage was about how, although we are talking about a 12 week window, every dog is different and will have their own individual timelines, can we talk a little bit around that, please? Yes.
(31:28):
So there is a breed specificity thing to that, but I wouldn't ever say it's black and white.
it's different if you're going to the shelter and adopting someone that's a bit all mixed up because the rules just don't always apply.
But there's a conceptual thing and hopefully if you chose a specific breed, you've done a little bit of research into why you chose that breed and what they require.
if you've got a dog that is.
More on the baby scale and gonna stay on the baby scale for life set your expectations differently than if you are got an tation or a, Husky, for example.
(31:58):
Husky.
Okay? But then it's a case of.
Knowing your individual baby.
Who is it in front of you? Not just what is but who are they? hopefully if you were going with a breeder, you've spent some time bonding in advance and selected who you want based on character traits but even if you haven't, you've got the starting point to go, okay, let's find out what you love.
What do you love? So you can do preference testing, and that doesn't have to sound anything more complicated than say, okay, I have toy A and toy B, I'm gonna put them both down on the floor.
(32:25):
Which one do you want? That's a preference test through the short and simple, right? But then if you did that again and say, so this was the winner and that one wasn't, then we get another toy and do it again and go, which one is it now? you can have almost a hierarchy of toys.
And if that tends to happen on repeat, then you're like, okay, Mr.
Ginger legs is the favorite toy, right? you can preference test and find that out.
(32:45):
And you can also discover how fast do they learn.
And the answer to how fast do they learn is usually faster than you think.
It is usually faster than you think.
In the wild all day, every day is constant stimulation.
The sensors are being fired upon all the time.
The brain is filtering most of that out and holding onto what's relevant.
They then make a decision and that's what 'cause that's behavior.
(33:07):
Okay.
So there's a whole behavioral cascade that goes through.
And they're doing that 24 7 of how obviously when, not when they're sleeping, but if they're awake, that's on.
nature doesn't stand still.
It's not static.
It doesn't follow the same pattern every day.
We have seasonal changes.
We have light and data, we have floods and weather changes.
We have like animals coming in and out territory changes.
(33:29):
social conflict changes.
human invasion, there's a whole bunch of stuff.
So an animal is doing that all the time.
When they come into our world, they're equipped to do that.
Yet they live in an environment that doesn't change, temperature control, light control, timing, control.
No other animals are encroaching on So it's very bland.
(33:49):
It's very static.
It's very boring.
So that brain is sitting there going, come on, gimme something.
And this is why we get recreational markers.
Recreational chewers.
over grooming, Where you've got the problem and now you've got you bald, Why did you do that? Because for the dog, from their value system point of view, something is better than nothing.
(34:10):
Nobody likes a nothing.
Just ask a human.
An example is grief, right? We lose someone in our life, there's now a hole, That hole really hurts.
If we are able to fill that hole even a little bit with another person that we love, or let's say we change, you can replace to some extent, right? You have a breakup and you cut your hair, right? Or you have a breakup and you join a sports club you're filling a void.
(34:37):
'cause void is super painful.
in the absence of stimulation, having somewhere to go, it will create something.
Barking, chewing, licking, these are all adaptive coping mechanism behaviors that the dog doesn't want to do but will do when he's forced to because the stimulation isn't there.
(35:02):
training is essential.
it's as important as feeding.
training doesn't have to be four hours a day.
It's five minute sessions.
Twice a day.
Three times a day.
And why did you get a dog? Didn't you wanna hang out with them and have fun? Wouldn't you know? It really shouldn't be an obstacle for people to do training.
And so training's super easy, but now you've got something cognitive to attach to, and you see a diminishment in the undesirable behaviors and an improvement in the desirables.
(35:27):
Isn't that the outcome you wanted? And wasn't it fun in the middle? knowing your baby how fast they learn and what their needs are, and where are they likely to get to on that development scale? If you're expecting your Cavalier King Charles spaniel to be like a husky, you need to Reset your expectations.
they're relying on you to know who they are and to love them anyway, Just do that.
(35:47):
Just know who they are and love them.
It's a bit like adopting a young child and expecting them to slot into your daily life Without understanding of them per, as a person, as an individual personality who's got their own thoughts and ideas and likes and dislikes.
Oh, every time I keep having this thought that comes into my head and I need to ask about it the, that you touched on them.
(36:15):
a puppy isn't just you can have a five minute training session, you can have a 10 minute training session, but that's not the only time they're learning, they're absorbing their learning.
All the time.
Every time they are awake, they're learning something.
When they're asleep, they're learning that they're safe enough to get remedial sleep.
(36:37):
And that sleep's not being disturbed, and no one's encroaching on them while they're getting that sleep.
And while they're awake, they are learning.
Every single second of their waking day.
Although in a human's head it might be, I'm going to train my dog now.
That's not the case for the dog.
(36:58):
The dog is learning every waking second of every waking day.
And when we're talking about training sessions as small, they just need to be really short, really sweet, always ending on a positive.
But what we want to also be careful of is that the dog's bones are still soft.
Their body's not formed yet.
(37:19):
It's still growing, and we want to make sure that we are not getting them to jump over things and do stuff that's going to create an impact that's going to affect their physiology.
Can we talk a little bit around what appropriate training would be? can we talk a little bit around what you would see as appropriate training for those short sessions? Yeah, definitely.
(37:42):
So to your point with the development of the bones, let's just touch that very quickly.
That's what would be addressed in that by week thing.
knowing that until they get to this age point, their bones are going to be up.
Unable to cope, confidently successfully with that level of strain.
So it's keep play looking like this until then, keep roughhousing looking like this.
(38:05):
Until then keep Frisbee work.
So we go through those things as well.
Remind me your question 'cause I just now it went off Let's move to a different one.
I think it was around appropriate training.
Yes.
So babies, they're babies.
You really don't want until they're over the three month mark.
And probably.
Four month mark.
You don't want training sessions to be any more than five minutes.
(38:26):
They just don't have the capacity to concentrate for that period of time.
And you are going to run into a lack of success, which means it's gonna be a downer for them and it's gonna be frustrating for you.
So just keep those really short and sweet.
when they're still with mom from the sort of.
Four to eight week window What they're really learning is social skills with siblings, how to dog.
(38:49):
They're learning how to dog, what does it mean to be a dog? What does it mean when someone bites me? What do I do with a tail? they're doing socialization and very gentle handling from people so that they can become accustomed to hands that come down and, grab on you and do stuff.
But then when they get older training, wants to shift, you'll go through then a peak social socialization thing.
(39:11):
And at that point in time it's a really good idea to have a training plan because you've got a certain amount of time to do that before that window comes down like we talked about.
But you've gotta a fairly large objective list to get through.
So I like to give people a checklist and see, can you hit 10 of these a week? we want to socialize them.
To be comfortable with every kind of person.
(39:33):
that means a baby.
a screaming baby.
a toddler.
That means a small child.
That means an adolescent, teenager.
That means someone who's smoking.
That means an adult.
a woman.
a man.
a man wearing a hat.
a man with a beard.
a man with a walking stick.
a wheelchair.
someone who's laughing loud.
Like really? It's not one human will desensitize your dog to what humans are, because that doesn't work like that.
Dogs are compartmentalized in their thinking and they're reading patterns.
(39:56):
So female pattern looks different from male patterns, so they don't generalize.
the more people.
That they can be introduced to in the socialization side, so that this is training, right? We're training them to be comfortable with people.
So training session doesn't have to look like you've got a checklist of tasks and they have to do it on repeat training is let me introduce you to grandpa with his walking stick and his beard so that you are comfortable with grandpa and you don't develop a phobia of men with beards.
(40:26):
So socialization is five minutes of play with grandpa and five minutes of play with baby, and five minutes of play with the kids down the street And then we move from socialization into desensitization.
So this is now your stimuli, your external environment, lawnmowers, cars, planes, bikes, the postman, the milkman, the.
(40:47):
Tv, driving in the car, cats, other animals, going to the beach, going to the park, going to the train station, getting on a tra like whatever your life looks like.
'cause everyone's lifestyle is different.
Are you rural? Are you urban? All these things, right? So whatever your lifestyle, what, whatever that looks like, whether you go public transport or you get in the car.
(41:11):
All of those things, that's what needs to be trained next, is that desensitization.
getting on the train is safe the noise of the plane going overhead is safe.
The noise of my hairdryer is safe.
Someone yelling on the TV is make believe it's safe, even though the dog's hearing the emotion in that voice.
You can be there giving them a snuggle at the same time.
(41:33):
training is exposure to all those things in a way that sets the dog up for success we don't want 'em carrying that.
we're doing everything in a way that's consent based watching the dog's body language and making sure that when the dog gets to a point where they are, just.
(41:54):
Sort of feeling a little bit of pressure, low pressure.
We are making the decision to retreat from that so that they don't feel forced or backed into a situation.
we are giving them the opportunities to be curious safely, and expose 'em to these things safely using positive reinforcement and whatever is the key motivator for the dog.
(42:14):
We're not picking them up and dropping them into a river to expose them to something like that.
Everything is done in a way, like when you're saying about grandpa, for example, he's got his stuff, but we are letting the dog choose to interact.
We are not saying, grandpa, bring your walking stick over and approach the dog.
We're offering the dog the opportunity, the puppy, the opportunity to engage with grandpa and to be invited into grandpa's space with the choice to take the flight option available to them if they want, Really? Yeah.
(42:47):
Should we go till midnight then? Is that alright? Okay.
We did say we'd get some midnight snacks if we were still going, if you want to see Penny back on the Dog Expert podcast, let us know, I think Penny should join us every week.
If people want to find out more about you and your work, how can they find out more and get in touch? Dr.
zli.co
is where you'll find some information.
(43:08):
The website is really just a, an intro into me.
'cause most of the work that I do is, is gonna be through other sites, but that's a good starting point and you could reach out to me there.
But I have forever young.
an amazing, membership program for people to have access to a longevity library of resources.
there's no pressure to learn.
no agenda to meet, there's no high price ticket or any of the, it's completely accessible, but it means that if you have questions about training, you can jump into the longevity library and look at videos about training desensitization critical windows, or raw feeding.
(43:41):
this is a constantly evolving, resource section, and there's all kinds of other bits that go along with that.
But the main, these are the guides and protocols and the supplements that I would recommend people use, and it's just to take all the stress out of it for you.
So that's membership and that's really the most, significant way that you can, engage with all of this material.
I encourage people to take a look at that.
(44:02):
And, we can pop the link on the show notes here, I think probably.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I can see that we've still got questions coming in.
We are out of time.
So we will come back to you in the chat and reply to your messages on YouTube and Facebook.
I can see that we've got some messages coming in so please do keep the questions coming in the comments and we will make sure that you have answered.
(44:25):
Thanks once again to Penny for joining us.
If you haven't already subscribed to our YouTube channel, please do it's youtube.com/at
the dog expert podcast.com.
We are powered by canine principles.com.
Check out their courses on over on the web.
(44:46):
Site everything from free loose lead walking course through to formal degree level six off qual qualifications.
we will see you again live tomorrow for the next episode of the Dog Expert Podcast.
Hope you have a wonderful rest of your day.
(45:08):
Thanks everyone.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to the Dog Expert Podcast, the podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
If you've enjoyed this episode, let us know in our free Facebook group for dog lovers ethical Dog Training with Canine principles.
(45:29):
That way we can make more content like this that you'll love.
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Welcome to the Dog Expert Podcast.
The podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
Powered by canine principles.com.
Helping passionate dog people go from feeling unsure and overwhelmed to confident, compassionate, and science savvy through a rich library of online courses and formal qualifications.
(00:33):
Each week on the podcast, we dive deep into the real, raw and rewarding world of dogs.
This isn't about obedience.
This is about understanding because dogs aren't problems to solve.
They're free thinking, sentient beings to connect with.
(00:55):
Hello, good evening and welcome to the Dog Expert Podcast.
This episode is all about how we are going to make dogs bombproof and bulletproof.
this is a really important stage of a dog's life that is often overlooked that we are going to be taking a deep dive into this evening with our fantastic.
(01:20):
Stick guest Penny.
Who is Dr.
Zli? Amazing name.
So Penny is joining us, to talk about how we can make the first 12 weeks after bringing a puppy home.
from age eight weeks to 20 weeks, the best we possibly can what we can actually do in that time to shape the dog.
(01:44):
And make them emotionally calm and physically resilient from a biology cellular level for many years to come.
Penny is a world-class longevity zoologist.
She's a zoo consultant, a cognitive ethologist, and a pet health concierge She blends cutting edge longevity science.
(02:07):
With wild animal strategies to help dogs not just survive, but thrive into their senior years.
What we are going to be looking at this evening is what Penny calls a bombproof and bulletproof concept, so dogs who are emotionally steady and biologically resilient from the inside out.
(02:29):
Let's bring Penny on from backstage so she can introduce herself properly.
Hey Penny.
Hi Joe.
Hey, thank you for jumping on the podcast with me.
A pleasure.
Always gimme any chance to talk about dogs.
So I gave a bit of an intro about you, but I did actually see a few things on your website.
(02:52):
that I didn't touch on.
There are some really cool things that you've done.
Not least having your Hair done by some amazing animals.
That's the one that always seems to grab people's attention.
that was probably one of the happiest memories as well.
I was training raccoons in one of the zoos, and it was.
Free contact and we had great relationship when they were doing some of their, basic training.
(03:16):
it's nice to end on a play session, the free play.
I would then sit down and allow them to engage how they would like what they wanted to do was do my hair.
So I had raccoons one on either shoulder stroking their fingers through and mushing it up and, wetting their hands the way they do.
And there it was.
That was my raccoon hair.
Wow, that's fantastic.
(03:36):
And what a cool choice of all the things that they could have chosen to do.
They wanted to be with you and do your hair.
How wonderful.
I guess a really good place for us to start is maybe around how the Bombproof Bulletproof concept came about in the first place.
(03:59):
That's an easy one actually, because it's the solution to the problem that I see over and over again.
Now, I started out as a welfare zoologist improving animal welfare in captivity.
that comes down to what are the humans in that equation, deciding on behalf of the animal.
'cause that's effectively the result, is the care that they have and therefore the quality of life that they have.
(04:22):
Therefore.
Their welfare.
It was, that's where I started and then I expanded to include the body, because a huge part of welfare is how well or sick you are, how free you are in your movement, how engaged you are with the world.
I would just see consistently In consultations and working with zoos, behavior, problem, behavior, problem, behavior, problem.
(04:46):
Physical problem, right? And so that sounds normal.
That sounds of course that's the same as everybody and it is.
But if you wanna do something about that, rather than just fight fires all the time and just wait for the next bad thing to happen and then fix that, and then wait for the next one to happen and then fix that and constantly be chasing your tail and constantly having welfare going like this, you could actually say hang on.
(05:10):
What? What's driving? The body to go out of system, what's driving behavior to become abnormal, let's fix that.
And then downstream doesn't happen anymore.
So the question was, when do you need to fix that? And do you need to do it once or a hundred times, so I dug into those questions, but it was really just a case of, listen, I care so much about the quality of life that animal has with you, and that determines the relationship that you have with your pet.
(05:38):
So if it's compromised because the behavior is off.
you're always stressing about health because there's vomit everywhere everyone's getting bitten that's not a joyful, relaxed, loving relationship.
That's not the dog you dreamed of, right? This is now a challenge.
So what if we could give you the dog you ordered kind of thing, right? And then you know what to do.
(06:00):
To have that perfect, as perfect as it can get scenario for the rest of their life.
So that was the solution.
Amazing.
And I think for people listening in, maybe if we look a bit about defining what a bombproof puppy, the kind of emotional foundations, and then moving on to what the Bulletproof puppy, the physical resilience side of things, what that actually looks like.
(06:26):
So how would you define a bombproof dog? this is a word I actually stole from the zoo, because we would say, oh, this, when you're going into the zoo, like with new zookeeper coming in or whatever, who's who in the zoo and what's going on, right? It's this one's bombproof.
Like you can just throw anything at this one and they're absolutely fine, but just watch your fingers with that one, or whatever.
So this word became part of my language.
(06:48):
So the way I describe it with respect to dogs is confidence it.
means secure and safe in their own skin, aware of who they are and what's expected of them.
Knowing how to engage in this human world, which is a foreign culture to them.
Being biddable, someone can ask you to do something right? Please sit down over here.
(07:09):
And the dog says, I know exactly what to do with that request.
I know what it is.
I know what I'm expected to.
So there's the biddable thing.
there's the polite manners.
How do I greet other people? How do I greet other dogs? what's expected of me in this scenario? So that everyone's happy, no one's hackles go up, nobody gets yelled at.
Then there's the, really confident and well behaved is the best way of summing it up.
(07:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
if we can lay those emotional foundations so that the puppy grows into a calm, confident, secure dog, because they've been given agency and positive social experiences and they've got that emotional safety, that's going to mean that.
(07:51):
Some of the more common behavioral issues that we see, like separation, anxiety, reactivity.
Fear responses.
They're going to be minimized because they've got those firm foundations rooted in emotional safety.
Correct.
And then if we look at the bulletproof side of things, the physical resilience now, this really fascinates me from that cellular strength for kind of long-term health.
(08:17):
As I'm signed up to learn from you, because this is on my geek level.
So if we are looking at gut health and immune system development and all of the nervous system regulation, is that what you are talking about when you're talking about a bulletproof puppy? So bulletproof, yes and no.
(08:39):
imagine you're going into a war zone, whether it's you or a dog, You're gonna have some body armor, you're gonna have a visor, probably a helmet.
You're gonna have some padding in various places because you're going in and there's could be a stray bullet somewhere.
There could be some metal that flies up in the window, like a war zone is a dangerous place.
And we go in, not just in our swimsuit, going, oh, it's fine, that's the concept.
(09:00):
We can give that level of protection to our pets when we address the.
Basic pillars of their lifestyle.
conversely, the majority of dogs are actually waltzing through that war zone in their proverbial swimsuit.
They're vulnerable to anything and everything that comes their way because they haven't been set up biologically at the beginning.
(09:25):
And there's a number of ways where that can fall apart, not the least of which is, have you been cesarean sectioned, or have you been vaginally? Birthed, right? That's number one.
Two, did you get your colostrum from mom on the first couple of days, right? Without those things.
So it already happens.
There's always just some story right at the beginning, long before the eight weeks when you're gonna bring puppy home.
(09:46):
But when it's you now in the driver's seat, you have so much control over what is their biology going to do, We being the proverbial pet parent or a zookeeper we as the humans around the animal have collectively about 90% control over the health destiny of our animals.
(10:09):
Which is to say that the genetics play a component but only about 10%, and it varies a little bit species to species.
And in fact, dogs are slightly more genetically likely because they're so bred inbred really.
Sometimes in the creation of all these different breeds, the most docked around with, species on the planet, right? There's more morphology changes within dog than there is in any other animal, so they're a little bit higher.
(10:33):
So we say safely go 10% with a dog, it's usually about seven for everyone else.
that means there's a lot on the table, You've got 90% control over whether they catch this, get this, develop that, have those symptoms or not.
So knowing that as a pet parent, it suddenly changes the ball game 'cause it's not a dice roll.
(10:53):
Oh, I got a lucky one, or I didn't get a lucky one.
you are in the driver's seat and if you want your dog to be safe, healthy, protected, and live a long time, they actually all go together, right? You get one, you get all four at the same time.
So why not do what it takes to get one of them, and then both of you are gonna enjoy that for as long as possible.
So Bulletproof is really talking about having those shields up because that's your immune system.
(11:17):
That is forward facing because no doctor, no vet, no longevity zoologist, no pet parent, no wonder drug, no.
Holistic therapy, doesn't matter.
Nothing's gonna heal your dog and protect your dog.
Nothing accept their immune system.
And if we neglect that and not have the shields up, then of course they're gonna get.
(11:39):
Infectious diseases, acquire injury.
have mental health problems, gut dysbiosis, weak joints, allergies, the whole thing.
And that's what we see over and over in the vet clinics around the world.
There's the same, top 10 issues that come through all the time.
And the root cause every single time is because those seven pillars of longevity, lifestyle, that wrap around a dog that you are in control of, haven't been set up to be.
(12:04):
What a dog needs.
It's been set up to be what marketing told you? A company, a vet, what's convenient for you, right? Valid.
But if you prioritizing welfare is the number one priority.
It's not good enough.
So if your welfare is number one, then you've gotta look at those decisions and say of course I'm gonna feed my dog.
No one's debating that.
(12:25):
Whether you feed over here or over here, you're feeding your dog, but are you feeding a raw species appropriate diet? Are you making sure the daily essential nutrients are there and that you've got purified water? Or are you feeding out of the tap with all the junk that's in tap water and a highly processed diet that involves at least 50% carbohydrate, which they don't need, right? It is pretty stark difference when you lay out a few dot points, This will set them up for 20 plus years of health.
(12:50):
It is amazing when you lay it out like that.
It is just no brainer yet.
So many, pet parents and myself included in the past, learn, because we live and we learn there's no shame on people who don't know Any different because just by watching this, you're educating yourself and your dog will live longer as a result.
(13:15):
how with the bombproof bulletproof approach between eight to 20 weeks, that window, golden window for the brain, the body, the behavior, what's actually happening developmentally during that time.
Great question.
So there's 4 phases if you like.
(13:37):
You've got the neonatal, we're really a baby.
Then we have the juvenile window, then we have the adolescent window, and then we have the adult window, and the body and the brain are both doing different things in each of those.
Four zones.
there's a continuum where the brain will go from here to here in that period of time, and then the next epoch it's gonna be doing something different but also still progressing.
(13:58):
So from A couple of those skills point of view at around about 12 weeks, to around about 24, 26 weeks.
You've got the juvenile period.
But prior to that, you have this young baby whose brain is like a sponge and whose body's growing like a weed, and that has to be catered for.
(14:21):
over time, that will slow down.
But it depends on the breed as to when they reach maturity or adulthood.
The way I look at it as a zoologist is probably a little bit different from the way most people would approach it, 'cause I say there's four tiers to maturity.
You ha.
And they happen at different points.
it's the point at which all four of those are in existence that I say, now your dog is an adult.
(14:45):
Prior to that, they're a sub-adult, or in adolescence if they've got three out of the four or two then they're tracking, but they're not an adult yet.
So sexual maturity tends to be the one that happens first, right? And so sexually mature means now you can go and breed.
But does that make you an adult? No, he really does not.
And you just look at any 15-year-old and human and say, it makes sense.
So there's sexual maturity.
(15:06):
That's physical maturity.
Like when does the body stop growing? When is it reached full flesh out, and then there's emotional and Cognitive.
So those are the four things.
the brain's gonna get to a point where it's okay, now I've acquired the maximum amount of cognition development that I can as a domestic species.
the process of domestication is actually a retardation of brain development to prevent an animal from reaching full wild adulthood.
(15:38):
That's why domestic animals have a dependency flavor and that willingness to interact, bond, and connect with the human, because we are taking over the role of protector, parent leader, decision maker, right? Depending on their particular species.
Social structuring, okay? They don't really reach independence.
(16:05):
they can become feral.
But don't become wild because their brain can't develop that last percentage from domestication to a full wild brain.
So as we take dogs through their age brackets, they're gonna stop at various points on that cognitive maturity pathway, depending on their breed.
(16:28):
we use the wolf, obviously, because that's the dog ancestor we say that's what 10 outta 10 looks like, or that's what, a hundred percent Look, whatever you wanna measure, right? But that's what the model is for full wild maturity for the dog model.
if you're a husky.
You can probably do about 95% of a wolf's behavioral repertoire.
There's a little fraction that the wolves have an edge on that.
(16:49):
A husky can't.
But a husky is essentially the next thing they're gonna get the most cognitive development of any breed, and we see that because they've got the ability to do the long stare.
They don't bark, they howl.
They communicate the way an adult barking is.
that's barking.
That's what that is in dog world, Howling silence and body language is full adult communication and it's really only the husky that gets up there.
(17:15):
So everyone else, every breed is gonna be somewhere on that continuum down to the ones that are, the most dependent, needy, and have a lot more of those neonatal features.
So the really big eyes in proportion to skull, right? You look at a child, a human baby, right? And you see the eyes and the big head compared to the body and very long, floppy ears.
(17:40):
'Cause adult ears are pointy triangles.
And so if your dog's got pointy triangles, they're much closer to being a wolf.
They've got further to go on their cognitive development than a floppier dog.
A floppier dog is gonna be younger cognitively.
Anyway, we are getting in the weeds there, but it was just, the getting to maturity looks different for every dog, and we can never expect our dog to get to the point of having the common sense of a wolf because they can't.
(18:04):
They literally can't.
So that's why it's so important for us to lead them in the decisions of what to eat, when to eat, where to go, how to stay clean, all these kind of life, I call them the seven pillars of animal longevity.
in the wild, they would've all reached that stage sooner or later, and know how to work cooperatively to support each other, to keep fulfilling those things all the time.
(18:28):
And that, because they're all wolf, right? But we have to learn that as a human because we do it our way, which is human not dog way, which is what they need.
So when they're in the world and they're that family unit, their brains are developed in a way that they're able to survive in that situation, compared to.
(18:52):
domestic dogs who are captives and they're unable to choose.
they're not able to choose what they're eating.
where they're going to roam what time they're going to wake up or any of the decisions around their lives.
We are controlling them all.
It's really important that we're introducing.
(19:14):
Choice into their everyday environment.
But what we're doing with the Bulletproof, concept is really making sure that we're providing them with choices, but they're all positive choices that are going to set them up for longevity.
Going to minimize any behavior challenges after the 12 month mark.
(19:37):
Make sure that they've got the immune system support from the inside out that they need.
What practical tips if there was a pet parent watching this.
Would you recommend that they take, So when I teach this with a client, we go from adopted puppy to Bombproof and Bulletproof dog.
we can do that for.
(19:58):
Either the juvenile period only, or juvenile and adolescent once they get that out, they're now equipped, you don't have to do 18 months or 12 months You can stick with the 12 weeks and it's a game changer.
what I Typically do then is take people through, especially in the early stages, the week by week, the speed of change in development and growth is lightning.
(20:18):
So you have to be doing, you have to be looking for what's, what do I introduce this week? it's really a full-time job from week eight to week 20.
the needs of that dog are high and it doesn't need to take you all day to do it.
But because they're young, it's on quick repeat, They've got bladder control for 30 minutes.
So you're gonna be popping in and out a lot, or going to the puppy pads it's not like you can just set and forget and do it one time and then come back because they're on a quick cycle So it's intensive in the early stages.
(20:48):
week by week there's quick changes and knowing how.
Be prepared for what's coming next and set yourself and your dog up for success by being ready is a huge part of it, if it's gonna take you a week to catch up for where you were last week, you are now two weeks.
Do you know what I mean? Like it goes fast.
So that's one layer of things And there are what I call the six essential skills, and the 12 key decisions.
(21:11):
And so you wanna be very mindful of there are six skills that are imperative.
Not just optional extras, but imperative for a dog to acquire in this timeframe.
Because there's a, there's these things called the critical windows.
Probably most people have heard of that now, right? So there's a critical learning development window where the brain is like a sponge.
(21:32):
It's completely plastic.
Anything that goes in is instantly learned and absorbed and retained and it's just peak learning moment.
There comes a time when that comes down, like a ton of bricks.
that window is shut.
That doesn't mean they can never learn again, The old you can't teach an old dog new tricks kind of thing, whatever, right? That's a fallacy.
But what happens now is the brain is going to be resistant.
(21:56):
It is because that's a safety mechanism for survival to be suspicious of something new.
Before we were like, everything's fine, mom and daddy, you look after me.
I just learn everything.
the only thing in the world is, play and sleep.
So our brain is very receptive.
There's no filter.
And then we get older and it's hang on a minute.
now if you wanna train, you can absolutely train.
(22:17):
The dog is begging to be trained.
They want to be stimulated.
They want to learn.
They're gonna learn whether you teach them or not.
They're learning through observation.
pattern and behavior, But are they learning what you want them to learn? And do you have that on a voice command, To elicit that behavior, which is a blessing for your dog.
Because what they don't want is insecurity and confusion.
(22:39):
So the, I know what you want from me, right? And you are going there.
Oh, I just wish you would do this thing.
So that's what we wanna avoid.
We go through these six basic life skills that set the dog up for success in living in a human world.
Imagine you're an exchange student to, rural China, Do you know what the etiquette is? Do you know what the language is? Can you fit into a family environment and never put a toe outta line in terms of your manners and have you offended somebody and have you got all your needs met? I bet you can't.
(23:11):
if you were gonna do that, you would have coaching, you'd have language classes, you'd have etiquette school.
You would have practice runs, you'd do role play.
You would figure it out.
And then by the time you were going to China and living in the rural countryside, you'd be equipped.
And you go, oh, your nervous system will be back down in the parasympathetic, and you'd be loving life taking lots of pictures, right? But when you are like, holy heck, I have no idea.
(23:32):
I don't even know if I'm gonna get mugged down this way here, or I'm gonna fall off a bridge going you're autonomic nervous system's going through the roof, can you really learn and concentrate and do great things in that moment? No, of course you can't.
You're in resistance.
So it's a case of let's give them the basic skills they need to live in a human culture successfully, confidently, which results in happily.
(23:56):
And then look at the 12 decisions that we're making in that early timeframe of their life, and make them based on the best possible welfare requirements that fit in with your ethic budget or location in the world, So it's not prescriptive, but it's things to be thinking about rather than just following what an ad on TV told you to do or some outdated science or from the human perspective.
(24:20):
Are there tips? Yes, there's bazillions of them, which is why I can't list them all off.
But we can dive into one or two if you wanna do them I give you a framework because then it will make sense.
we're gonna say 12 decisions, six life skills, seven pillars of animal longevity.
we're gonna go week by week, layering each of those things.
It sounds complicated.
(24:40):
It's really not.
It's probably easier for the pet parent with this than it is to be, I don't know what I'm doing.
And why is the dog eating all the socks why is there still pee in the bathroom? Nobody likes being in that place.
having a framework makes it so much easier for everyone.
Absolutely.
And also the anxieties you feel as a new.
(25:05):
Pet parent to a little puppy.
The pressure, the responsibility that you've got to do your best by this puppy, surrounded by, conflicting advice online, not knowing who to believe, what's to believe.
And you've got well-meaning, friends and family, giving you every single experience they've ever had with a puppy.
(25:28):
And then you've got the vet.
And then you've got behaviorists and not knowing which ones are good, which ones are not good.
It really is a time of, confusion for many pet parents.
So to have an ethical framework that they can follow will keep their heart rates down, which will have a positive effect on the puppy as well.
(25:48):
One thing that I see a lot with new puppies in a home is, it is flooding and over exposure.
Yes.
And overstimulation.
If, I think it's really important to stress to anyone listening that each dog is so individual, they've got their own individual, needs their own individual experiences, in that first eight weeks and their own requirements.
(26:19):
Although there are key foundation points and key areas that you'll be able to focus on, it almost doesn't matter how the puppy's behaving.
It's how you are reacting or acting.
That is really important.
To make sure that puppy gets consistency, across the board.
So whether that's consistency with outstanding nutrition, specific for their age or whether it's consistency with your cues, your body language.
(26:49):
Have you got any top tips for people around, how they can maintain.
The way that they're behaving and the way that they're acting to keep their heart rates down.
Remember why you got a puppy in the first place to love and have fun and share your life together.
(27:11):
Anytime we feel an emotion that is expressed chemically on our skin.
we look at dogs and say, oh, it's like they know this is a bad person or a good person.
They seem to know that you're in a good mood or a bad mood, they're smelling these emotions that we are feeling.
if we cry, happy tears.
The chemistry is very different from if we're crying heartbreak tears.
you can actually chemically look at the signature and say, This was a happy person.
(27:34):
the chemistry is coming out of our body and it layers up on our skin.
our dogs are able to have a scent blueprint map of what our day has been, and if we're still carrying the stress on the top layer, the most recent one, What are we emitting at this moment? They'll mimic that because they're a social species and they wanna fit in.
(27:56):
So when you are like, your dog's gonna be like, holy heck, what's the threat? we're clearly under attack.
I don't understand what's going on.
I have no idea what I'm supposed to do, so I'm just gonna stress out as well.
it's not conducive for anybody.
If you're finding it difficult, your patience is stretched.
You are stressed out.
Go and do something that you love.
Walk away.
(28:17):
By you leaving the room, you are diminishing the charge in the atmosphere.
You can go and do something that's pleasurable for you, which will set you up for success to then walk back in and then say, oh my gosh, you are so cute.
I forgot you were cute 10 minutes ago when I was mad at you.
But look at you now.
Let's have a little cuddle.
we say this to zoo trainers all the time.
(28:37):
if you are in a stressful situation and a tiger's not cooperating and you are feeling like err like that, you do not wanna face off with a tiger.
And the tiger doesn't want you to face off with them either.
People get hurt so controlling your emotions as a trainer is critically important 'cause they do transmit and open the door for big mistakes that can be hard to mend.
(28:58):
There's a period in the dog's life, from around, Seven to 14 weeks, you have the peak desensitization time.
desensitization is, let me show you stimuli, but show you that it's safe so you don't have to be afraid of it.
you're not gonna develop a firework phobia, you're not gonna develop a hatred of the postman, you're not gonna develop, write all of those things.
(29:20):
Okay? the acquisition of fear starts to come in the second half of that timeframe.
before then there is no fear.
It's oh, I'm just a baby.
Everyone will protect me.
There's nothing to be afraid of.
When you get a little bit older, then it's like there was a bad experience.
Someone trot on your tail by mistake.
You're gonna remember that now.
And now you've got a tail, not a tail phobia, but you are like super hypervigilant of people walking around you because you had your tail squished.
(29:44):
that becomes an acquired learned behavior that makes for an edgy, jumpy, switchy dog.
So we can help them unlearn that.
But these are the experiences that we wanna avoid, because they can start to be retained and then set the scene for a whole cascade of patterns.
Now accidents will happen.
A tail will occasionally get trotted on, Or whatever it is, a car will backfire that you had no control over it's knowing.
(30:08):
Okay, that seemed like a super minor thing for me to have a car backfire in the street.
But look at the dogs, right? Pete on the floor so it's okay, as an intelligent pet parent, I'm gonna note that and say.
That was a big deal for them.
This is the age bracket that they're in.
Therefore, this could be a problem.
It's time to fix it right now.
(30:29):
And so you go grab some toys and some treats and you do a little play session and you calm everybody down.
If you've got a grounding mat or a device that is gonna help reset the autonomic nervous system to parasympathetic, then you can use the, so it is a case of knowing.
What you can do and what you have on hand to do, and you only need five, 10 minutes.
(30:50):
This is not like four hours of hard work, but doing the 10 minutes right then and there will be game changer for a dog that doesn't develop, like walking phobias, like people walking around them, Oh, there's so much I want to talk to.
I know.
Such a juicy topic.
one thing that we touched on when we were backstage was about how, although we are talking about a 12 week window, every dog is different and will have their own individual timelines, can we talk a little bit around that, please? Yes.
(31:28):
So there is a breed specificity thing to that, but I wouldn't ever say it's black and white.
it's different if you're going to the shelter and adopting someone that's a bit all mixed up because the rules just don't always apply.
But there's a conceptual thing and hopefully if you chose a specific breed, you've done a little bit of research into why you chose that breed and what they require.
if you've got a dog that is.
More on the baby scale and gonna stay on the baby scale for life set your expectations differently than if you are got an tation or a, Husky, for example.
(31:58):
Husky.
Okay? But then it's a case of.
Knowing your individual baby.
Who is it in front of you? Not just what is but who are they? hopefully if you were going with a breeder, you've spent some time bonding in advance and selected who you want based on character traits but even if you haven't, you've got the starting point to go, okay, let's find out what you love.
What do you love? So you can do preference testing, and that doesn't have to sound anything more complicated than say, okay, I have toy A and toy B, I'm gonna put them both down on the floor.
(32:25):
Which one do you want? That's a preference test through the short and simple, right? But then if you did that again and say, so this was the winner and that one wasn't, then we get another toy and do it again and go, which one is it now? you can have almost a hierarchy of toys.
And if that tends to happen on repeat, then you're like, okay, Mr.
Ginger legs is the favorite toy, right? you can preference test and find that out.
(32:45):
And you can also discover how fast do they learn.
And the answer to how fast do they learn is usually faster than you think.
It is usually faster than you think.
In the wild all day, every day is constant stimulation.
The sensors are being fired upon all the time.
The brain is filtering most of that out and holding onto what's relevant.
They then make a decision and that's what 'cause that's behavior.
(33:07):
Okay.
So there's a whole behavioral cascade that goes through.
And they're doing that 24 7 of how obviously when, not when they're sleeping, but if they're awake, that's on.
nature doesn't stand still.
It's not static.
It doesn't follow the same pattern every day.
We have seasonal changes.
We have light and data, we have floods and weather changes.
We have like animals coming in and out territory changes.
(33:29):
social conflict changes.
human invasion, there's a whole bunch of stuff.
So an animal is doing that all the time.
When they come into our world, they're equipped to do that.
Yet they live in an environment that doesn't change, temperature control, light control, timing, control.
No other animals are encroaching on So it's very bland.
(33:49):
It's very static.
It's very boring.
So that brain is sitting there going, come on, gimme something.
And this is why we get recreational markers.
Recreational chewers.
over grooming, Where you've got the problem and now you've got you bald, Why did you do that? Because for the dog, from their value system point of view, something is better than nothing.
(34:10):
Nobody likes a nothing.
Just ask a human.
An example is grief, right? We lose someone in our life, there's now a hole, That hole really hurts.
If we are able to fill that hole even a little bit with another person that we love, or let's say we change, you can replace to some extent, right? You have a breakup and you cut your hair, right? Or you have a breakup and you join a sports club you're filling a void.
(34:37):
'cause void is super painful.
in the absence of stimulation, having somewhere to go, it will create something.
Barking, chewing, licking, these are all adaptive coping mechanism behaviors that the dog doesn't want to do but will do when he's forced to because the stimulation isn't there.
(35:02):
training is essential.
it's as important as feeding.
training doesn't have to be four hours a day.
It's five minute sessions.
Twice a day.
Three times a day.
And why did you get a dog? Didn't you wanna hang out with them and have fun? Wouldn't you know? It really shouldn't be an obstacle for people to do training.
And so training's super easy, but now you've got something cognitive to attach to, and you see a diminishment in the undesirable behaviors and an improvement in the desirables.
(35:27):
Isn't that the outcome you wanted? And wasn't it fun in the middle? knowing your baby how fast they learn and what their needs are, and where are they likely to get to on that development scale? If you're expecting your Cavalier King Charles spaniel to be like a husky, you need to Reset your expectations.
they're relying on you to know who they are and to love them anyway, Just do that.
(35:47):
Just know who they are and love them.
It's a bit like adopting a young child and expecting them to slot into your daily life Without understanding of them per, as a person, as an individual personality who's got their own thoughts and ideas and likes and dislikes.
Oh, every time I keep having this thought that comes into my head and I need to ask about it the, that you touched on them.
(36:15):
a puppy isn't just you can have a five minute training session, you can have a 10 minute training session, but that's not the only time they're learning, they're absorbing their learning.
All the time.
Every time they are awake, they're learning something.
When they're asleep, they're learning that they're safe enough to get remedial sleep.
(36:37):
And that sleep's not being disturbed, and no one's encroaching on them while they're getting that sleep.
And while they're awake, they are learning.
Every single second of their waking day.
Although in a human's head it might be, I'm going to train my dog now.
That's not the case for the dog.
(36:58):
The dog is learning every waking second of every waking day.
And when we're talking about training sessions as small, they just need to be really short, really sweet, always ending on a positive.
But what we want to also be careful of is that the dog's bones are still soft.
Their body's not formed yet.
(37:19):
It's still growing, and we want to make sure that we are not getting them to jump over things and do stuff that's going to create an impact that's going to affect their physiology.
Can we talk a little bit around what appropriate training would be? can we talk a little bit around what you would see as appropriate training for those short sessions? Yeah, definitely.
(37:42):
So to your point with the development of the bones, let's just touch that very quickly.
That's what would be addressed in that by week thing.
knowing that until they get to this age point, their bones are going to be up.
Unable to cope, confidently successfully with that level of strain.
So it's keep play looking like this until then, keep roughhousing looking like this.
(38:05):
Until then keep Frisbee work.
So we go through those things as well.
Remind me your question 'cause I just now it went off Let's move to a different one.
I think it was around appropriate training.
Yes.
So babies, they're babies.
You really don't want until they're over the three month mark.
And probably.
Four month mark.
You don't want training sessions to be any more than five minutes.
(38:26):
They just don't have the capacity to concentrate for that period of time.
And you are going to run into a lack of success, which means it's gonna be a downer for them and it's gonna be frustrating for you.
So just keep those really short and sweet.
when they're still with mom from the sort of.
Four to eight week window What they're really learning is social skills with siblings, how to dog.
(38:49):
They're learning how to dog, what does it mean to be a dog? What does it mean when someone bites me? What do I do with a tail? they're doing socialization and very gentle handling from people so that they can become accustomed to hands that come down and, grab on you and do stuff.
But then when they get older training, wants to shift, you'll go through then a peak social socialization thing.
(39:11):
And at that point in time it's a really good idea to have a training plan because you've got a certain amount of time to do that before that window comes down like we talked about.
But you've gotta a fairly large objective list to get through.
So I like to give people a checklist and see, can you hit 10 of these a week? we want to socialize them.
To be comfortable with every kind of person.
(39:33):
that means a baby.
a screaming baby.
a toddler.
That means a small child.
That means an adolescent, teenager.
That means someone who's smoking.
That means an adult.
a woman.
a man.
a man wearing a hat.
a man with a beard.
a man with a walking stick.
a wheelchair.
someone who's laughing loud.
Like really? It's not one human will desensitize your dog to what humans are, because that doesn't work like that.
Dogs are compartmentalized in their thinking and they're reading patterns.
(39:56):
So female pattern looks different from male patterns, so they don't generalize.
the more people.
That they can be introduced to in the socialization side, so that this is training, right? We're training them to be comfortable with people.
So training session doesn't have to look like you've got a checklist of tasks and they have to do it on repeat training is let me introduce you to grandpa with his walking stick and his beard so that you are comfortable with grandpa and you don't develop a phobia of men with beards.
(40:26):
So socialization is five minutes of play with grandpa and five minutes of play with baby, and five minutes of play with the kids down the street And then we move from socialization into desensitization.
So this is now your stimuli, your external environment, lawnmowers, cars, planes, bikes, the postman, the milkman, the.
(40:47):
Tv, driving in the car, cats, other animals, going to the beach, going to the park, going to the train station, getting on a tra like whatever your life looks like.
'cause everyone's lifestyle is different.
Are you rural? Are you urban? All these things, right? So whatever your lifestyle, what, whatever that looks like, whether you go public transport or you get in the car.
(41:11):
All of those things, that's what needs to be trained next, is that desensitization.
getting on the train is safe the noise of the plane going overhead is safe.
The noise of my hairdryer is safe.
Someone yelling on the TV is make believe it's safe, even though the dog's hearing the emotion in that voice.
You can be there giving them a snuggle at the same time.
(41:33):
training is exposure to all those things in a way that sets the dog up for success we don't want 'em carrying that.
we're doing everything in a way that's consent based watching the dog's body language and making sure that when the dog gets to a point where they are, just.
(41:54):
Sort of feeling a little bit of pressure, low pressure.
We are making the decision to retreat from that so that they don't feel forced or backed into a situation.
we are giving them the opportunities to be curious safely, and expose 'em to these things safely using positive reinforcement and whatever is the key motivator for the dog.
(42:14):
We're not picking them up and dropping them into a river to expose them to something like that.
Everything is done in a way, like when you're saying about grandpa, for example, he's got his stuff, but we are letting the dog choose to interact.
We are not saying, grandpa, bring your walking stick over and approach the dog.
We're offering the dog the opportunity, the puppy, the opportunity to engage with grandpa and to be invited into grandpa's space with the choice to take the flight option available to them if they want, Really? Yeah.
(42:47):
Should we go till midnight then? Is that alright? Okay.
We did say we'd get some midnight snacks if we were still going, if you want to see Penny back on the Dog Expert podcast, let us know, I think Penny should join us every week.
If people want to find out more about you and your work, how can they find out more and get in touch? Dr.
zli.co
is where you'll find some information.
(43:08):
The website is really just a, an intro into me.
'cause most of the work that I do is, is gonna be through other sites, but that's a good starting point and you could reach out to me there.
But I have forever young.
an amazing, membership program for people to have access to a longevity library of resources.
there's no pressure to learn.
no agenda to meet, there's no high price ticket or any of the, it's completely accessible, but it means that if you have questions about training, you can jump into the longevity library and look at videos about training desensitization critical windows, or raw feeding.
(43:41):
this is a constantly evolving, resource section, and there's all kinds of other bits that go along with that.
But the main, these are the guides and protocols and the supplements that I would recommend people use, and it's just to take all the stress out of it for you.
So that's membership and that's really the most, significant way that you can, engage with all of this material.
I encourage people to take a look at that.
(44:02):
And, we can pop the link on the show notes here, I think probably.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I can see that we've still got questions coming in.
We are out of time.
So we will come back to you in the chat and reply to your messages on YouTube and Facebook.
I can see that we've got some messages coming in so please do keep the questions coming in the comments and we will make sure that you have answered.
(44:25):
Thanks once again to Penny for joining us.
If you haven't already subscribed to our YouTube channel, please do it's youtube.com/at
the dog expert podcast.com.
We are powered by canine principles.com.
Check out their courses on over on the web.
(44:46):
Site everything from free loose lead walking course through to formal degree level six off qual qualifications.
we will see you again live tomorrow for the next episode of the Dog Expert Podcast.
Hope you have a wonderful rest of your day.
(45:08):
Thanks everyone.
Bye.
Thank you for listening to the Dog Expert Podcast, the podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
If you've enjoyed this episode, let us know in our free Facebook group for dog lovers ethical Dog Training with Canine principles.
(45:29):
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