August 9, 2025 • 36 mins
NEW EPISODE: “Bouncing Back” with Daniel Shaw MSc
Why do some dogs recover from fear or stress, while others crumble?
This week on The Dog Expert Podcast, we’re joined by behaviourist and neuroscientist Daniel Shaw to explore the fascinating science of resilience in dogs:
🔬 What resilience really means
🧬 The genetic + environmental factors behind emotional recovery
💥 Why coping dogs aren't always comfortable dogs
🛟 How to build resilience with enrichment, safety, and support
🎧 Listen now because resilience isn’t just about surviving. It’s about helping dogs thrive.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Welcome to the Dog Expert Podcast.
The podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
Powered by canine principles.com.
Helping passionate dog people go from feeling unsure and overwhelmed to confident, compassionate, and science savvy through a rich library of online courses and formal qualifications.
(00:32):
Each week on the podcast, we dive deep into the real, raw and rewarding world of dogs.
This isn't about obedience.
This is about understanding because dogs aren't problems to solve.
They're free thinking, sentient beings to connect with.
(00:53):
Hey, hello.
Welcome to the Dog Expert Podcast with me, Jo Middleton.
And Emily Dustin.
Hello everyone.
It's so good to be back.
So good to have you back.
Have you been having a massive heat wave? No, it's been cold and rainy.
(01:13):
Really? Oh my gosh.
We are like melting here Really warm.
We pay good money to go on holiday somewhere warm, and then when it happens here, everyone complains about it.
I'm used to nice hot South African weather dry heat.
The sun is quite nice.
(01:34):
I love it.
But I still see so many people taking their dogs out and, we saw someone with a black cock of spaniel going for a run in the middle of the day and it's nearly 30 degrees.
It is just bonkers.
the mornings and the evenings have been lovely and cool and the dogs have really enjoyed We've got someone super special joining us tonight.
(01:55):
You excited? I'm very excited.
Is it your favorite week? It's always my favorite week.
I just love the geek part, the neurobiology.
Everything is right up My alley.
So brilliant.
I'm so excited to talk to him and meet him.
should we tell everyone who it is? Liz, do it.
We have got the one and only Daniel Shaw from a BK joining us this evening.
(02:16):
Daniel is backstage.
Daniel is a legend.
If you aren't familiar with Daniel, I'm gonna bring him on and he can tell you all about himself because, I'm so excited.
Daniel Hello.
Thank you for having me.
Exciting to be here.
We are so happy that you are with us this evening I know we are going to talk about canine resilience and the science behind it.
(02:39):
I feel like we could still be here at midnight because there are so many rabbit holes we could go through.
Yeah.
That's the problem, isn't it? When you've got three people in a room that all love talking about dogs and dog behavior.
cutting it off is an issue.
Oh, It really is.
And every episode, Emily and I just buzzing, aren't we? Because it is Oh, so much.
It's like the best day.
Because even when the show ends, you guys are heading off to bed.
(03:01):
I'm awake.
I get the kids ready.
they're like, mom, how was your podcast? I was like, oh, it was so good.
We spoke about this and this.
It was amazing.
if you have been living in a cave and you're not familiar with who Daniel is and what he does, Daniel, do you wanna tell people a little bit more about how you got started in the doggy world and what you're up to? I'm a dog behaviorist and trainer.
(03:28):
I also work with cats based in the southeast of England.
I generally support behavior cases like what I consider one along the lines of aggression, separation, anxiety cases where many dogs are struggling, or cats, to, find kind of a.
I suppose in terms of their emotional wellbeing or their caregiver's emotional wellbeing in the home.
(03:50):
So that's usually what I'm seeing on a day-to-day basis, with my business, and or behavior Kent.
Which is for those that like yourself, Emily in other countries, county, in the southeast of England, so my background in getting into this, I've got a master's in neuroscience and my original degree was in psychology.
I've always had an interest in the science of behavior and the biology of behavior and how we can apply this to our dogs in terms of understanding our dog's behavior and also in terms of improving their welfare, and emotional wellbeing.
(04:22):
On a day-to-day basis.
And I think that's the, the amazing thing when you're looking at the neurobiology aspect, because you can bring in things like how a dog's sleep patterns, exploration patterns and exercise patterns influence their emotional wellbeing.
So there's all these things that you can start to bring in when you are looking at it from that neurobiology angle.
And, also looking at the way dogs perceive their environment so much of our perception is influenced by our own brain.
(04:49):
We are not seeing.
Any kind of true reality.
Us as humans, our dogs are certainly not either, no animal seeing a true reality.
We're seeing our own kind of constructed snapshot of reality, and that constructed snapshots is influenced by our brain, by their processing capacity of our brain, by our brains learning experience about the world.
(05:11):
So actually trying to dive into that and understand that can be so valuable.
In terms of helping our dogs cope better and thrive in the world they're living in.
emotional safety is just so key.
I feel like it's something that I talk about an awful lot.
(05:31):
providing a dog with the opportunity to have choice it's just so many things there that we could unpick.
Emily, I know you are jumping at the bit.
there's so many amazing points that you brought out with that as well, because it's not even just the neurobiology and, natural behaviors, foraging, seeking all these things that dogs do.
(05:54):
One of the things that I love that you brought up as well is the emotional, wellbeing of the owners as well.
we as behaviorists understand all of this, the chemical communications hormone fluctuations, we understand what's going on with the dog and from the dog's perspective.
when we come into a home and we're helping feline canine whatever behavior that we're working with.
(06:16):
The biggest part is in order for that dog's emotional wellbeing to improve, their caregiver has to have that knowledge it's that coin drop so often as you mentioned, 'cause we see it from our perspective, from our own reality.
And also we're completely separate species and we only know what we know and communicate in the way that we communicate.
And when you help them with that species communication bridge.
(06:38):
And they understand from the dog's perspective and they go, oh my dog isn't actually ingres aggressive with the part of intent.
It's more theory activity.
The dog is displaying behaviors because they're scared an offense behavior because they're going, oh no, don't come near me.
Then once the caregiver goes, oh, that makes sense.
My dog is scared.
(06:59):
That changes everything.
So it's not even just the dog's emotional wellbeing as well as the family who have that dog.
Because once everyone's needs are met and there understanding it improves the quality of love for everybody involved.
Absolutely.
And the dog picks up on the caregivers's emotions and that can just create a whole snowball effect of, A situation where the guardian's feeling super anxious and then everything snowballs.
(07:30):
So if we just strip it back a little bit and talk about what resilience actually is, and make sure that everyone listening is clear.
How would you describe resilience in layman's terms? to one of my children, Daniel.
(07:52):
resilience, is a topic That relates to what we're talking about, both in terms of, helping the caregiver and the dog manage pressures and potential stressors in day-to-day life.
when we think about resilience, I think.
What we are talking about is that ability to adapt and bounce back.
From a potential stressor.
(08:12):
if I was talking to your kids, maybe not being able to get something from the shop, their favorite snacks, are not there, and being able to bounce back from that stressor not the whole day being ruined.
If we're talking about a dog, maybe we're talking about, seeing another dog in the park that looks them a little bit funny, someone barks at them, someone approaches them a little bit too quickly.
Some of those stresses that we can't necessarily control.
(08:35):
On a day-to-day basis, for our dogs, as much as we would like to obviously be able to protect our dogs, that might not want someone to approach them and touch them, or they might not want, another dog to bark at them.
Most dogs don't want another dog having a go at them, when they're out on their walks, right? unfortunately, we can't necessarily protect our dogs from all these experiences.
(08:55):
that's where resilience is a really important part of that picture.
We can differentiate it from perhaps, something more along the lines of robustness in the sense of, is a dog being stressed by this, or is this sort of washing over a dog? So if you talk about a robust dog the other dog barks at them, doesn't really cause them any stress, doesn't really cause them any concern at all.
(09:19):
Or we might talk about a resilient dog who does experience some stress But is able to bounce back from that stress very effectively.
And there's a slightly different things to look at.
But I think really important to make that differentiation, especially when we think about the situations we put our dogs into.
(09:39):
one thing we need to acknowledge when talking about resilience is that just because you've got a resilient dog That doesn't necessarily mean that you should put them in.
All these situations that we know they can cope with, might not be good from their wellbeing point of view, from their quality of life.
They might be able to cope with going into a busy environment, being petted by hundreds of people, whatever situation it might be.
(10:02):
Going into a dog sports environment that's very high intensity.
But actually we might still look at that dog and recognize that Even though it's something they are resilient enough to cope with and bounce back from it doesn't necessarily mean it's something they enjoy.
So I think that's the other kind of.
Piece of the picture with resilience.
when we are talking about situations our dog is resilient to, we've also got to ask do they enjoy this situation as well? Do they enjoy this sport? Do they enjoy being put in this situation where they're being petted by lots of different people? Do they enjoy, whatever situation we might be talking about as well.
(10:35):
I love that you say that.
Yeah, because that's so important.
Because it is.
They'll go.
My dog loves going to dog sports.
They really love it, and they are resilient and have good recovery rates.
But then the dog is actually quite overwhelmed.
There's, really intense environments.
And then as you mentioned earlier, the perspective of the individual.
Does the dog actually enjoy it or does the guardian love it so much that they're projecting that the dog enjoys it? Absolutely.
(11:02):
it's the same kind of systems that govern stress, fear, and recovery that are all at play, isn't it? So the same with us humans.
A and resilience is shaped by so many different factors because dogs can't tell us what they're feeling.
we might not even know why they feel that they have to.
(11:25):
Behave or act in a certain way.
for example, a Greyhound has high prey drive.
And they feel that they have to hyperfocus on something.
But we're able to redirect their attention and refocus them onto something else.
Versus a dog that doesn't distract from that and is completely laser focus in on that.
(11:49):
That's quite an obvious, example of how a dog can recover and be resilient versus one that can't.
But then if you, have a dog that maybe is more stoic, it might just be an increase in breath rate or a change in ear position or something that is visible Or not as obvious, sign that the dog is finding stressful or something that they're unable to cope with as well as maybe, another dog would, can we talk a bit about the concept of optimism in dogs? I suppose if we define optimism and pessimism first, it's that bias towards novel situations or where there's not enough information for an animal to fully judge what the outcome of a particular situation is going to be.
(12:37):
Whether they're more likely to believe that situation to be associated with positive outcomes or negative outcomes, and depending on the environment you are in.
Being more optimistic or being more pessimistic can both be helpful if you are in an environment where, there's lots of good things that might come up as a result of being optimistic.
(12:59):
Maybe you're, living near human settlements and humans are pretty friendly to dogs in those settlements.
I'm thinking.
particularly early dogs, down the kind of evolutionary ladder as dogs start to domesticate, actually probably being a bit more optimistic if you've got quite a dog friendly area, probably quite a good thing because that might mean you get a little bit closer to the humans.
You're more likely to engage with them, get some food, get some good snacks, maybe even a good sleeping space.
(13:25):
Whereas if you were a dog living in the opposite situation where you've got that, maybe those negative outcomes, that might mean humans that aren't super friendly to dogs that will chase them off, try and poison them again, being more pessimistic, then it's maybe going to be a little bit more helpful.
And within that, there's been a lot of research on what sort of, firstly how we can identify optimistic slash pessimistic biases in ad dogs.
(13:54):
And.
What might improve that optimistic bias? one piece that really comes to mind for me when we talk about optimism in dogs is, associated with, Alexandra Horowitz, who's a canine cognition researcher in the US and has written a ton of books.
So if anyone wants to look up her work, she's got a ton of brilliant books out there in the study, they looked at nose work, in dogs and providing dogs with nose work opportunities they used boxes where the dogs would dig around and there'd be treats in the boxes and they provide several boxes on a regular basis.
(14:27):
And I think they compared it to something else.
I can't remember the comparison they used But, something that wasn't the same as nose work.
It might have been more traditional training or something like that.
But I would say double check the study 'cause I'm not a hundred percent sure.
what they found is nose work activities, increased optimism in dogs.
(14:48):
Really cool to know.
some of the enrichment stuff we're doing, some of the training that's readily available now can start increasing that optimistic bias with dogs.
Which, especially when we're talking about some dogs and dogs that might have had those more difficult histories, dogs that might have had past experiences that maybe pushed them towards a more pe pessimistic bias.
Or it might, just be that breeding history and the genetic hand they've been dealt Biases them to be more on the pessimistic side.
(15:12):
We can actually support 'em with that and we can support 'em with being, become, becoming a little bit more optimistic because generally, not always necessarily, but I'd say generally in the human world, being a little bit more optimistic in the environments our dogs are living in is probably gonna be a good thing and probably gonna be supportive for our companion dogs.
Oh, a hundred percent.
(15:34):
It's so true because that optimism as well, especially when you're working with enrichment seeking finding.
Problem solving that really does build the confidence and that optimism because good outcomes whenever the dog engages or does something, especially if they're fearful, a little bit nervous every time the dog successfully problem solves or seeks and finds and retrieves something that's good, that always, that increases that positive experience and association and that again, like you mentioned, we'll just build that optimism 'cause good things happen.
(16:07):
It helps with their whole demeanor as well.
So that's absolutely amazing.
Yeah, and I think processing novelty as well because often present novel things to our dogs, whether that be meeting new people, whether that be a change in our home environment, meeting new dogs in the home as well.
All sorts of weird things that go on, even down to things like building works in our home, when we are doing all these weird human things our dogs just.
(16:35):
I'm gonna really struggle to make sense of actually going into that with a bit of a positive outlook and from our point of view, being able to reinforce that positive outlook as well so we can, make sure when they do meet those builders that come into the home set up some good experiences to start off with.
When some of those weird, loud things are happening, fireworks or whatever, for the first time, we've done some work before that to set that up to be a good experience It being, something that the dog learns is negative and then we have to start looking at trying to rewrite some of those pathways.
(17:08):
Yeah, It's like running a marathon.
You don't just go and run a marathon, you prep, you learn about your pace, your speed, all of that.
And then when you run for the first time, you're way more ready and prepared it's such a common issue when builders and even next door neighbors are building and the dog next door is suffering.
Especially if they're quite sensitive and nervous.
(17:30):
We are talking about emotional resilience and the recovery rate and more sensitive dogs will take longer to recover because of the cortisol levels and the stress prevention is better than cure.
It's that helping them along that path so when the situation happens, they are ready and that will increase their emotional resilience and recovery rate if we can know our baseline normals for our dogs, so we know what their normal body language is like, their normal posture, their Signs of slight anxiety when they're starting to feel some pressures, then we are able to pick up on when things are getting too much and make the choice to remove them from a situation sometimes a dog that seems calm might actually be shut down.
(18:18):
They might have learned that the world isn't a safe place for them.
that learned helplessness state expressing any sort of emotions is gonna be ignored anyway, and they're not gonna get an outcome.
Their feelings aren't valid.
dogs that have got more self-confidence and more resilience built up because they've had more positive experiences and they've learned that the world isn't as scary.
(18:41):
What we don't want to do is miss any signs of unmet needs or really chronic, stresses that a dog is experiencing because it appears to be well behaved from a human perspective from the dog's point of view, it might just be suppressed.
And in that state of calm.
it's shut down.
It's not calm.
(19:02):
See it a lot with the ex breeding, bitches when they first come in for the first few weeks when we foster them they'll curl up and just pretend to be asleep and everyone says, oh, they're so well behaved.
They'll make someone a wonderful pet.
And that dog is really.
Messed up and institutionalized and so traumatized.
But because from a human perspective, they're quiet and asleep, they're being well behaved.
(19:25):
the resilience that dog's built up is actually, there's no point in trying because no one's gonna listen.
No one understand.
So before we, I'm really excited to talk about something that Daniel's got coming up, literally next week.
But I just want to talk a little bit about practical ways that we can build resilience.
(19:48):
if anyone who is watching has thought, actually yeah.
Maybe, my dog is shut down or isn't quite as resilient as I thought they were.
What top tips would you give to someone, Daniel? Yeah, so the first thing I just follow up on what you said I think trauma and stress and, some of these past experiences can affect the nervous system in very different ways.
(20:12):
whether that be a dog that is really struggling to regulate their arousal and really struggling to bring down some of their stress axes.
Or whether that's a dog that might be stressed but in almost immobilized state.
Yeah.
Sometimes that can look very different.
And the affection of dog's physiology in terms of what we might be seeing if we were looking at some of those physiological variables in that dog's brain and body might be very different, but we still always need to think about what we can do to help that dog cope better on a day-to-day basis.
(20:41):
I think the first thing I would say is an individualized approach is always gonna be key.
being able to understand that dog's body language and what improvement looks like for your individual dog is going to be key.
there are some broad, pointers we can look for, especially when we talk about the core behavioral needs of dogs that are likely to be really helpful.
But when we're applying those, we need to apply those in such a way.
(21:04):
That it is not, re-traumatizing for a dog that's experienced psychological trauma.
And we don't always know what that is.
So that can be difficult that's where understanding body language and being able to read an individual dog's signals is really helpful.
Hopefully everyone's got the idea that they need to be thinking about, obviously feeding, making sure the dog is fed and hydrated.
(21:26):
We can talk about how we can do that in specific ways that might help the dog as well in a little bit.
But I think a really important place to start is social needs as well, How we can build social relationships in a way that's going to be helpful for that dog.
Because for a lot of dogs that have had difficult experiences, it's not gonna be someone being really touchy, someone being super tactile, someone giving them a load of attention.
(21:47):
Actually, a lot of dogs that I work with that have had difficult past experiences do not like that at all.
finding a way to spend time with the dogs, finding a way to share a space with the dog where you are not giving them a lot of attention can sometimes be really helpful.
And actually, giving them that opportunity when they feel comfortable to be able to come to you, can be really valuable.
(22:09):
Now, I had one case a few years ago where.
The dog was adopted from A rescue in, some sort of other country.
I can't remember.
I don't think it was Romania.
There's a lot of Romanian rescue dogs in the UK now.
I don't think it was from Romania.
I can't remember where the dog was imported from, but the dog was so shut down, so fearful.
This dog hidden the top floor of these people's houses or this people's house and.
(22:34):
You could visibly see her panicking as soon as someone entered the room, you could see her starting to hyperventilate.
So we realized to start off with, no one can really be in this room.
We can drop off food, drop off supplies, but we are not gonna spend a lot of time in that room.
And what we are gonna do is present some smells on a regular basis.
Social interaction can vary from just presenting something that smells of you so it can get the dog used to your particular odor.
(22:58):
being very hands-on, being very touchy.
some dogs absolutely love that and are gonna be a big fan of you doing that, but we know that social interaction in whatever form that is useful for your individual dog is really valuable.
It provides this social buffering effect.
It prov, it helps docs regulate their stress axes and recover from those day-to-day stresses.
(23:21):
So social interaction is really valuable.
And alongside that, we need to also think about who and which individuals we are setting up our dogs to interact with as well.
Yes, because what we also don't want is, when we're thinking of humans, we can modify our behaviors a little bit more.
We can do some of those things that I just spoke about, but, a lot of dogs need that opportunity to interact with a member of their own species as well.
(23:47):
So I think that's the other thing we need to bring in.
But when we are setting up social opportunities for our dog, with other dogs, we also need to think about.
What sort of dog is gonna be appropriate for that? Because we know we've got a dog that actually has difficulties in their own social history.
Then that might mean, or is likely to mean in fact that some of the way they perceive social cues in the environment, some of the way they interact socially is hampered in such a way that they may not be the best candidate to interact with another dog Socially hampered or limited by that lack of experience.
(24:22):
So if we're talking about a socially inexperienced dog, a dog that's not had a history of, socially experienced in a negative way, hasn't got a good history of social interactions for whatever reason, we need to think really carefully about the candidate that we are setting up that dog with for social interactions.
And thirdly, of course, if we are.
Bring in another dog for social interactions.
(24:44):
We need to make sure those social interactions aren't something that's gonna have a negative effect on your helper dog's mental wellbeing as well.
Oh yes, absolutely.
There's so many times that you see on reels and social media where they will use a dog to socialize another dog.
(25:04):
both dogs are in a state of overwhelm, usually because it looks impressive when it's a reactive dog, The dog who's struggling is the reactive dog, and that dog's now freaking out because it's seeing the other dog it's complete flooding.
no appropriate exposure.
Gradual or systematic.
you see these short clips people are also set up to fail because it looks impressive that this dog is reacting.
(25:28):
then you see the other dog and all that dog is that body language is showing appeasement, gestures, avoidance, trying to diffuse.
And that poor dog is in a position to also fail.
they usually go, just get an older dog to teach the younger puppy some manners or tolerance, even if it's not reactivity.
then the older dog is put in a position where they've got this little, and they might not technically might have a puppy license.
(25:52):
for those watching a puppy license is a period of time where dogs are more tolerant of puppies until they develop a bit older.
But in the sense of both dogs interacting, that one dog is put under unrealistic expectations to teach the other dog.
Something that the person wants them to learn, and then it's a recipe for disaster.
(26:17):
one of the common things as you were mentioning Daniel, was that someone.
Is trying to do this work with their, dog and it's also understanding that dog's perspective of what their social interactions are, what their social needs are, what their stresses are.
And then it's also helping somebody understand that, especially if you've got no history and it is a rescue dog.
(26:38):
They just want a little dog to sit on their lap so they can love them and tickle them and it breaks their world and shatters their dream of having this dog that you love and cuddle and it's a companion What do you mean I mustn't touch my dog? most dogs like to be touched, but this particular dog is a bit sensitive in that social aspect.
going back to what Daniel said finding that social need for that individual dog.
(27:01):
What works for them in building that bond as well with the guardian and family member.
So everyone feels that their relationship is improving, but everyone's also less stressed, more set up for success, and the bond improves.
Leads us full circle, doesn't it? Back to the humans, the whole giving dogs choice, giving them agency and letting them make.
(27:24):
Small decisions, safe decisions.
But still letting them make the decision to empower them.
And even if it's which toy do you wanna play with? Or you are rotating their toys, so you've got some away and then you have some out, and then maybe the next day you put those away and get the ones that are away out giving them the opportunity to choose.
(27:48):
How they engage and when they engage, and who they engage with, if that's a dog or a human.
It's really, important that we also respect their decision, as in when they choose to say no, and that we recognize that they're saying, no, That's not what I want to happen.
I don't want to go near that person please.
(28:08):
Or that dog or that thing.
No thanks.
we're always.
Encouraging people to invite the dog into their space and not encroach into the dog space.
So the dog's got the choice to not approach if it doesn't want to.
It really grieves me when I see dogs tied up outside school gates while the parent has gone in, or guardian guardians spun in to get the, and then all the kids come out and you've got a dog tied to a school gate and all the children coming in over the dog's head to say hello.
(28:39):
because it's a Labrador, maybe the guardian doesn't think it'll bite.
But if I was strung up by my neck and loads of quick moving, beings over my head, I'd be tempted to snap as well.
anyway, Daniel, I'm really keen to talk to you about something now.
The podcast is powered by Canine Principles, and canine principles are sponsoring an event that you've got coming up very soon.
(29:05):
Can you tell us all about it? Yeah, so we are very excited to have, you and the Canine Principals team, sponsoring, our conference this year, which is literally is coming up, next week.
So week and three days until we start really, and it's a two day dog behavior conference in.
Kent, the southeast of England.
(29:26):
we also live stream it, so you can tune in from anywhere in the world, which is the brilliant thing.
we've got some amazing speakers that are gonna be there talking about resilience in dogs, which I know is one of the reasons we touched on that as a topic for today.
Some incredible people.
We've got, Suzanne Clavia, Victoria Stillwell, Andrew Hale, Kathy Murphy, who's an incredible neuroscientist.
(29:49):
Bobby Bury, who's doing a talk with her as well.
I can't name everyone because.
we've got so many people but we've got, a fantastic lineup it's a lovely social event as well.
being able to meet with people like you guys from all over the world that work with dogs and have that opportunity get a sense of.
What everyone's individual world and profession looks like.
(30:11):
'cause I think that's one of the challenges for us in our jobs is it can be quite isolating sometimes.
And it can be quite, we don't often, unless you're just running a big franchise and even if you're running a franchise store, you're still often working on a one-to-one basis or a group class basis with clients, Other colleagues.
So it's nice to have that opportunity, to spend some time with other people that are facing the same things you are on a day-to-day basis.
(30:35):
I dunno about you, but when I talk to friends and family members, I'm like, can't we talk about dogs? we have normal conversations about stuff, but to spend a few days immersed just in dog geek mode with other people who don't mind me being a dog geek, like my friends, I'm so jealous.
(30:55):
They're used to it by now.
But just to be able to have conversations about the nervous system and.
Different cortisol levels and stuff that we've touched on this evening, to spend a whole two days completely immersed in dog geek land learning.
Crazy.
So many good names on the lineup.
(31:17):
if people want to grab tickets, there's still tickets available.
ticket sales close.
Next Thursday, so Basically seven days until they close.
You can join in person, you can join online.
If you're going in person, there's a couple of extra seminars in the hotel the day before and the day after the conference.
(31:37):
So if you want to immerse yourself even more in person, there's that opportunity as well.
There's a seminar on resilience the day before and a seminar on shelter behavior with Tom Candy and Trish McMillan, who are both just amazing people in the shelter industry.
Trish's based in the us.
She's just works in shelters and done amazing things working with some really difficult cases.
(31:58):
Tom, has spent many years working, for the Dogs Trust in the uk breadth of experience between them both.
And just super excited to see what they're gonna be talking about together is gonna be so useful for anyone working in that field.
In the rescue field.
In the shelter field for sure.
So I there for it.
I just hope I've got some brain left after the Saturday and Sunday.
(32:20):
Oh my goodness.
This is amazing and it's so great that you can also just get it online for people who live far away.
Yeah, it's so good because I'm so jealous.
but that's amazing for the online because that can be so valuable to everyone around the world, and it's so good that they have that opportunity to get that access.
Yeah, absolutely.
(32:41):
And there's a little cocktail party going on the Saturday night, isn't there Daniel? There is.
And I have spent a lot of time picking out the cocktails, so it was my favorite thing to do.
I won't spend time actually doing any of the planning or the boring.
(33:01):
Fantastic.
Oh, we're really looking forward to it.
So where can people grab tickets? if you go to our website, if you Google BK conference or a BK 2025, it should all be that.
What I'm gonna do is just pop the link in the comments, so anyone who is watching, I'm just gonna do it right now.
(33:22):
And you need to act quick because the deadline is coming and it is round the corner.
So please do come and say hello.
I'm gonna be there on the canine principles and the International Institute for Canine Ethics.
Stands with the wonderful Jay Den, who's a former podcast guest renowned canine author.
I think it was a signal.
(33:44):
Are you back? Oh, there we go.
Sorry.
It just froze.
Come and say hello at the A BK conference.
The link is in the comments right now.
please do come and say hi.
Get your tickets, and if you can come to the cocktail party on the Saturday night.
I look forward to raising a toast with you.
Amazing.
(34:06):
You know what? We've got a red carpet as well.
They've told me that they're putting out a red carpet for the cocktail party, so that's exciting.
Have no idea what it will look like.
Am I going to have to wear shoes that aren't wellies? There's no dress code though, It's dog training.
(34:27):
You just don't own something with no hair on when you've got dogs.
The red carpet would probably be covered in dog hair anyway.
Oh thank you so much for joining us this evening, Daniel.
Really? Oh, thank you.
This morning for Emily.
It's been an absolute joy to have you on and, if people haven't already checked out the conference, I'm sure they will now before ticket sales close, hopefully we.
(34:50):
See you there to learn from some of the best names in the industry.
Next on the Dog Expert podcast, we have a fantastic lady coming on to talk to us about.
All things separation anxiety.
So keep an eye out.
(35:10):
It's great to have you back em because EM'S been off for a few weeks, but we've got it back.
And I know separation anxiety is one of your favorite topics.
I'll look forward to seeing you all next time.
Have a great week, everyone.
(35:31):
Bye bye.
Thank you for listening to the Dog Expert podcast, the podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
If you've enjoyed this episode, come and let us know in our free Facebook group for dog lovers Everywhere Ethical Dog Training with canine principles.
That way we can make more content like this that you'll love.
(35:54):
We would love for you to leave a review and hit subscribe so that you never miss an episode.
Welcome to the Dog Expert Podcast.
The podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
Powered by canine principles.com.
Helping passionate dog people go from feeling unsure and overwhelmed to confident, compassionate, and science savvy through a rich library of online courses and formal qualifications.
(00:32):
Each week on the podcast, we dive deep into the real, raw and rewarding world of dogs.
This isn't about obedience.
This is about understanding because dogs aren't problems to solve.
They're free thinking, sentient beings to connect with.
(00:53):
Hey, hello.
Welcome to the Dog Expert Podcast with me, Jo Middleton.
And Emily Dustin.
Hello everyone.
It's so good to be back.
So good to have you back.
Have you been having a massive heat wave? No, it's been cold and rainy.
(01:13):
Really? Oh my gosh.
We are like melting here Really warm.
We pay good money to go on holiday somewhere warm, and then when it happens here, everyone complains about it.
I'm used to nice hot South African weather dry heat.
The sun is quite nice.
(01:34):
I love it.
But I still see so many people taking their dogs out and, we saw someone with a black cock of spaniel going for a run in the middle of the day and it's nearly 30 degrees.
It is just bonkers.
the mornings and the evenings have been lovely and cool and the dogs have really enjoyed We've got someone super special joining us tonight.
(01:55):
You excited? I'm very excited.
Is it your favorite week? It's always my favorite week.
I just love the geek part, the neurobiology.
Everything is right up My alley.
So brilliant.
I'm so excited to talk to him and meet him.
should we tell everyone who it is? Liz, do it.
We have got the one and only Daniel Shaw from a BK joining us this evening.
(02:16):
Daniel is backstage.
Daniel is a legend.
If you aren't familiar with Daniel, I'm gonna bring him on and he can tell you all about himself because, I'm so excited.
Daniel Hello.
Thank you for having me.
Exciting to be here.
We are so happy that you are with us this evening I know we are going to talk about canine resilience and the science behind it.
(02:39):
I feel like we could still be here at midnight because there are so many rabbit holes we could go through.
Yeah.
That's the problem, isn't it? When you've got three people in a room that all love talking about dogs and dog behavior.
cutting it off is an issue.
Oh, It really is.
And every episode, Emily and I just buzzing, aren't we? Because it is Oh, so much.
It's like the best day.
Because even when the show ends, you guys are heading off to bed.
(03:01):
I'm awake.
I get the kids ready.
they're like, mom, how was your podcast? I was like, oh, it was so good.
We spoke about this and this.
It was amazing.
if you have been living in a cave and you're not familiar with who Daniel is and what he does, Daniel, do you wanna tell people a little bit more about how you got started in the doggy world and what you're up to? I'm a dog behaviorist and trainer.
(03:28):
I also work with cats based in the southeast of England.
I generally support behavior cases like what I consider one along the lines of aggression, separation, anxiety cases where many dogs are struggling, or cats, to, find kind of a.
I suppose in terms of their emotional wellbeing or their caregiver's emotional wellbeing in the home.
(03:50):
So that's usually what I'm seeing on a day-to-day basis, with my business, and or behavior Kent.
Which is for those that like yourself, Emily in other countries, county, in the southeast of England, so my background in getting into this, I've got a master's in neuroscience and my original degree was in psychology.
I've always had an interest in the science of behavior and the biology of behavior and how we can apply this to our dogs in terms of understanding our dog's behavior and also in terms of improving their welfare, and emotional wellbeing.
(04:22):
On a day-to-day basis.
And I think that's the, the amazing thing when you're looking at the neurobiology aspect, because you can bring in things like how a dog's sleep patterns, exploration patterns and exercise patterns influence their emotional wellbeing.
So there's all these things that you can start to bring in when you are looking at it from that neurobiology angle.
And, also looking at the way dogs perceive their environment so much of our perception is influenced by our own brain.
(04:49):
We are not seeing.
Any kind of true reality.
Us as humans, our dogs are certainly not either, no animal seeing a true reality.
We're seeing our own kind of constructed snapshot of reality, and that constructed snapshots is influenced by our brain, by their processing capacity of our brain, by our brains learning experience about the world.
(05:11):
So actually trying to dive into that and understand that can be so valuable.
In terms of helping our dogs cope better and thrive in the world they're living in.
emotional safety is just so key.
I feel like it's something that I talk about an awful lot.
(05:31):
providing a dog with the opportunity to have choice it's just so many things there that we could unpick.
Emily, I know you are jumping at the bit.
there's so many amazing points that you brought out with that as well, because it's not even just the neurobiology and, natural behaviors, foraging, seeking all these things that dogs do.
(05:54):
One of the things that I love that you brought up as well is the emotional, wellbeing of the owners as well.
we as behaviorists understand all of this, the chemical communications hormone fluctuations, we understand what's going on with the dog and from the dog's perspective.
when we come into a home and we're helping feline canine whatever behavior that we're working with.
(06:16):
The biggest part is in order for that dog's emotional wellbeing to improve, their caregiver has to have that knowledge it's that coin drop so often as you mentioned, 'cause we see it from our perspective, from our own reality.
And also we're completely separate species and we only know what we know and communicate in the way that we communicate.
And when you help them with that species communication bridge.
(06:38):
And they understand from the dog's perspective and they go, oh my dog isn't actually ingres aggressive with the part of intent.
It's more theory activity.
The dog is displaying behaviors because they're scared an offense behavior because they're going, oh no, don't come near me.
Then once the caregiver goes, oh, that makes sense.
My dog is scared.
(06:59):
That changes everything.
So it's not even just the dog's emotional wellbeing as well as the family who have that dog.
Because once everyone's needs are met and there understanding it improves the quality of love for everybody involved.
Absolutely.
And the dog picks up on the caregivers's emotions and that can just create a whole snowball effect of, A situation where the guardian's feeling super anxious and then everything snowballs.
(07:30):
So if we just strip it back a little bit and talk about what resilience actually is, and make sure that everyone listening is clear.
How would you describe resilience in layman's terms? to one of my children, Daniel.
(07:52):
resilience, is a topic That relates to what we're talking about, both in terms of, helping the caregiver and the dog manage pressures and potential stressors in day-to-day life.
when we think about resilience, I think.
What we are talking about is that ability to adapt and bounce back.
From a potential stressor.
(08:12):
if I was talking to your kids, maybe not being able to get something from the shop, their favorite snacks, are not there, and being able to bounce back from that stressor not the whole day being ruined.
If we're talking about a dog, maybe we're talking about, seeing another dog in the park that looks them a little bit funny, someone barks at them, someone approaches them a little bit too quickly.
Some of those stresses that we can't necessarily control.
(08:35):
On a day-to-day basis, for our dogs, as much as we would like to obviously be able to protect our dogs, that might not want someone to approach them and touch them, or they might not want, another dog to bark at them.
Most dogs don't want another dog having a go at them, when they're out on their walks, right? unfortunately, we can't necessarily protect our dogs from all these experiences.
(08:55):
that's where resilience is a really important part of that picture.
We can differentiate it from perhaps, something more along the lines of robustness in the sense of, is a dog being stressed by this, or is this sort of washing over a dog? So if you talk about a robust dog the other dog barks at them, doesn't really cause them any stress, doesn't really cause them any concern at all.
(09:19):
Or we might talk about a resilient dog who does experience some stress But is able to bounce back from that stress very effectively.
And there's a slightly different things to look at.
But I think really important to make that differentiation, especially when we think about the situations we put our dogs into.
(09:39):
one thing we need to acknowledge when talking about resilience is that just because you've got a resilient dog That doesn't necessarily mean that you should put them in.
All these situations that we know they can cope with, might not be good from their wellbeing point of view, from their quality of life.
They might be able to cope with going into a busy environment, being petted by hundreds of people, whatever situation it might be.
(10:02):
Going into a dog sports environment that's very high intensity.
But actually we might still look at that dog and recognize that Even though it's something they are resilient enough to cope with and bounce back from it doesn't necessarily mean it's something they enjoy.
So I think that's the other kind of.
Piece of the picture with resilience.
when we are talking about situations our dog is resilient to, we've also got to ask do they enjoy this situation as well? Do they enjoy this sport? Do they enjoy being put in this situation where they're being petted by lots of different people? Do they enjoy, whatever situation we might be talking about as well.
(10:35):
I love that you say that.
Yeah, because that's so important.
Because it is.
They'll go.
My dog loves going to dog sports.
They really love it, and they are resilient and have good recovery rates.
But then the dog is actually quite overwhelmed.
There's, really intense environments.
And then as you mentioned earlier, the perspective of the individual.
Does the dog actually enjoy it or does the guardian love it so much that they're projecting that the dog enjoys it? Absolutely.
(11:02):
it's the same kind of systems that govern stress, fear, and recovery that are all at play, isn't it? So the same with us humans.
A and resilience is shaped by so many different factors because dogs can't tell us what they're feeling.
we might not even know why they feel that they have to.
(11:25):
Behave or act in a certain way.
for example, a Greyhound has high prey drive.
And they feel that they have to hyperfocus on something.
But we're able to redirect their attention and refocus them onto something else.
Versus a dog that doesn't distract from that and is completely laser focus in on that.
(11:49):
That's quite an obvious, example of how a dog can recover and be resilient versus one that can't.
But then if you, have a dog that maybe is more stoic, it might just be an increase in breath rate or a change in ear position or something that is visible Or not as obvious, sign that the dog is finding stressful or something that they're unable to cope with as well as maybe, another dog would, can we talk a bit about the concept of optimism in dogs? I suppose if we define optimism and pessimism first, it's that bias towards novel situations or where there's not enough information for an animal to fully judge what the outcome of a particular situation is going to be.
(12:37):
Whether they're more likely to believe that situation to be associated with positive outcomes or negative outcomes, and depending on the environment you are in.
Being more optimistic or being more pessimistic can both be helpful if you are in an environment where, there's lots of good things that might come up as a result of being optimistic.
(12:59):
Maybe you're, living near human settlements and humans are pretty friendly to dogs in those settlements.
I'm thinking.
particularly early dogs, down the kind of evolutionary ladder as dogs start to domesticate, actually probably being a bit more optimistic if you've got quite a dog friendly area, probably quite a good thing because that might mean you get a little bit closer to the humans.
You're more likely to engage with them, get some food, get some good snacks, maybe even a good sleeping space.
(13:25):
Whereas if you were a dog living in the opposite situation where you've got that, maybe those negative outcomes, that might mean humans that aren't super friendly to dogs that will chase them off, try and poison them again, being more pessimistic, then it's maybe going to be a little bit more helpful.
And within that, there's been a lot of research on what sort of, firstly how we can identify optimistic slash pessimistic biases in ad dogs.
(13:54):
And.
What might improve that optimistic bias? one piece that really comes to mind for me when we talk about optimism in dogs is, associated with, Alexandra Horowitz, who's a canine cognition researcher in the US and has written a ton of books.
So if anyone wants to look up her work, she's got a ton of brilliant books out there in the study, they looked at nose work, in dogs and providing dogs with nose work opportunities they used boxes where the dogs would dig around and there'd be treats in the boxes and they provide several boxes on a regular basis.
(14:27):
And I think they compared it to something else.
I can't remember the comparison they used But, something that wasn't the same as nose work.
It might have been more traditional training or something like that.
But I would say double check the study 'cause I'm not a hundred percent sure.
what they found is nose work activities, increased optimism in dogs.
(14:48):
Really cool to know.
some of the enrichment stuff we're doing, some of the training that's readily available now can start increasing that optimistic bias with dogs.
Which, especially when we're talking about some dogs and dogs that might have had those more difficult histories, dogs that might have had past experiences that maybe pushed them towards a more pe pessimistic bias.
Or it might, just be that breeding history and the genetic hand they've been dealt Biases them to be more on the pessimistic side.
(15:12):
We can actually support 'em with that and we can support 'em with being, become, becoming a little bit more optimistic because generally, not always necessarily, but I'd say generally in the human world, being a little bit more optimistic in the environments our dogs are living in is probably gonna be a good thing and probably gonna be supportive for our companion dogs.
Oh, a hundred percent.
(15:34):
It's so true because that optimism as well, especially when you're working with enrichment seeking finding.
Problem solving that really does build the confidence and that optimism because good outcomes whenever the dog engages or does something, especially if they're fearful, a little bit nervous every time the dog successfully problem solves or seeks and finds and retrieves something that's good, that always, that increases that positive experience and association and that again, like you mentioned, we'll just build that optimism 'cause good things happen.
(16:07):
It helps with their whole demeanor as well.
So that's absolutely amazing.
Yeah, and I think processing novelty as well because often present novel things to our dogs, whether that be meeting new people, whether that be a change in our home environment, meeting new dogs in the home as well.
All sorts of weird things that go on, even down to things like building works in our home, when we are doing all these weird human things our dogs just.
(16:35):
I'm gonna really struggle to make sense of actually going into that with a bit of a positive outlook and from our point of view, being able to reinforce that positive outlook as well so we can, make sure when they do meet those builders that come into the home set up some good experiences to start off with.
When some of those weird, loud things are happening, fireworks or whatever, for the first time, we've done some work before that to set that up to be a good experience It being, something that the dog learns is negative and then we have to start looking at trying to rewrite some of those pathways.
(17:08):
Yeah, It's like running a marathon.
You don't just go and run a marathon, you prep, you learn about your pace, your speed, all of that.
And then when you run for the first time, you're way more ready and prepared it's such a common issue when builders and even next door neighbors are building and the dog next door is suffering.
Especially if they're quite sensitive and nervous.
(17:30):
We are talking about emotional resilience and the recovery rate and more sensitive dogs will take longer to recover because of the cortisol levels and the stress prevention is better than cure.
It's that helping them along that path so when the situation happens, they are ready and that will increase their emotional resilience and recovery rate if we can know our baseline normals for our dogs, so we know what their normal body language is like, their normal posture, their Signs of slight anxiety when they're starting to feel some pressures, then we are able to pick up on when things are getting too much and make the choice to remove them from a situation sometimes a dog that seems calm might actually be shut down.
(18:18):
They might have learned that the world isn't a safe place for them.
that learned helplessness state expressing any sort of emotions is gonna be ignored anyway, and they're not gonna get an outcome.
Their feelings aren't valid.
dogs that have got more self-confidence and more resilience built up because they've had more positive experiences and they've learned that the world isn't as scary.
(18:41):
What we don't want to do is miss any signs of unmet needs or really chronic, stresses that a dog is experiencing because it appears to be well behaved from a human perspective from the dog's point of view, it might just be suppressed.
And in that state of calm.
it's shut down.
It's not calm.
(19:02):
See it a lot with the ex breeding, bitches when they first come in for the first few weeks when we foster them they'll curl up and just pretend to be asleep and everyone says, oh, they're so well behaved.
They'll make someone a wonderful pet.
And that dog is really.
Messed up and institutionalized and so traumatized.
But because from a human perspective, they're quiet and asleep, they're being well behaved.
(19:25):
the resilience that dog's built up is actually, there's no point in trying because no one's gonna listen.
No one understand.
So before we, I'm really excited to talk about something that Daniel's got coming up, literally next week.
But I just want to talk a little bit about practical ways that we can build resilience.
(19:48):
if anyone who is watching has thought, actually yeah.
Maybe, my dog is shut down or isn't quite as resilient as I thought they were.
What top tips would you give to someone, Daniel? Yeah, so the first thing I just follow up on what you said I think trauma and stress and, some of these past experiences can affect the nervous system in very different ways.
(20:12):
whether that be a dog that is really struggling to regulate their arousal and really struggling to bring down some of their stress axes.
Or whether that's a dog that might be stressed but in almost immobilized state.
Yeah.
Sometimes that can look very different.
And the affection of dog's physiology in terms of what we might be seeing if we were looking at some of those physiological variables in that dog's brain and body might be very different, but we still always need to think about what we can do to help that dog cope better on a day-to-day basis.
(20:41):
I think the first thing I would say is an individualized approach is always gonna be key.
being able to understand that dog's body language and what improvement looks like for your individual dog is going to be key.
there are some broad, pointers we can look for, especially when we talk about the core behavioral needs of dogs that are likely to be really helpful.
But when we're applying those, we need to apply those in such a way.
(21:04):
That it is not, re-traumatizing for a dog that's experienced psychological trauma.
And we don't always know what that is.
So that can be difficult that's where understanding body language and being able to read an individual dog's signals is really helpful.
Hopefully everyone's got the idea that they need to be thinking about, obviously feeding, making sure the dog is fed and hydrated.
(21:26):
We can talk about how we can do that in specific ways that might help the dog as well in a little bit.
But I think a really important place to start is social needs as well, How we can build social relationships in a way that's going to be helpful for that dog.
Because for a lot of dogs that have had difficult experiences, it's not gonna be someone being really touchy, someone being super tactile, someone giving them a load of attention.
(21:47):
Actually, a lot of dogs that I work with that have had difficult past experiences do not like that at all.
finding a way to spend time with the dogs, finding a way to share a space with the dog where you are not giving them a lot of attention can sometimes be really helpful.
And actually, giving them that opportunity when they feel comfortable to be able to come to you, can be really valuable.
(22:09):
Now, I had one case a few years ago where.
The dog was adopted from A rescue in, some sort of other country.
I can't remember.
I don't think it was Romania.
There's a lot of Romanian rescue dogs in the UK now.
I don't think it was from Romania.
I can't remember where the dog was imported from, but the dog was so shut down, so fearful.
This dog hidden the top floor of these people's houses or this people's house and.
(22:34):
You could visibly see her panicking as soon as someone entered the room, you could see her starting to hyperventilate.
So we realized to start off with, no one can really be in this room.
We can drop off food, drop off supplies, but we are not gonna spend a lot of time in that room.
And what we are gonna do is present some smells on a regular basis.
Social interaction can vary from just presenting something that smells of you so it can get the dog used to your particular odor.
(22:58):
being very hands-on, being very touchy.
some dogs absolutely love that and are gonna be a big fan of you doing that, but we know that social interaction in whatever form that is useful for your individual dog is really valuable.
It provides this social buffering effect.
It prov, it helps docs regulate their stress axes and recover from those day-to-day stresses.
(23:21):
So social interaction is really valuable.
And alongside that, we need to also think about who and which individuals we are setting up our dogs to interact with as well.
Yes, because what we also don't want is, when we're thinking of humans, we can modify our behaviors a little bit more.
We can do some of those things that I just spoke about, but, a lot of dogs need that opportunity to interact with a member of their own species as well.
(23:47):
So I think that's the other thing we need to bring in.
But when we are setting up social opportunities for our dog, with other dogs, we also need to think about.
What sort of dog is gonna be appropriate for that? Because we know we've got a dog that actually has difficulties in their own social history.
Then that might mean, or is likely to mean in fact that some of the way they perceive social cues in the environment, some of the way they interact socially is hampered in such a way that they may not be the best candidate to interact with another dog Socially hampered or limited by that lack of experience.
(24:22):
So if we're talking about a socially inexperienced dog, a dog that's not had a history of, socially experienced in a negative way, hasn't got a good history of social interactions for whatever reason, we need to think really carefully about the candidate that we are setting up that dog with for social interactions.
And thirdly, of course, if we are.
Bring in another dog for social interactions.
(24:44):
We need to make sure those social interactions aren't something that's gonna have a negative effect on your helper dog's mental wellbeing as well.
Oh yes, absolutely.
There's so many times that you see on reels and social media where they will use a dog to socialize another dog.
(25:04):
both dogs are in a state of overwhelm, usually because it looks impressive when it's a reactive dog, The dog who's struggling is the reactive dog, and that dog's now freaking out because it's seeing the other dog it's complete flooding.
no appropriate exposure.
Gradual or systematic.
you see these short clips people are also set up to fail because it looks impressive that this dog is reacting.
(25:28):
then you see the other dog and all that dog is that body language is showing appeasement, gestures, avoidance, trying to diffuse.
And that poor dog is in a position to also fail.
they usually go, just get an older dog to teach the younger puppy some manners or tolerance, even if it's not reactivity.
then the older dog is put in a position where they've got this little, and they might not technically might have a puppy license.
(25:52):
for those watching a puppy license is a period of time where dogs are more tolerant of puppies until they develop a bit older.
But in the sense of both dogs interacting, that one dog is put under unrealistic expectations to teach the other dog.
Something that the person wants them to learn, and then it's a recipe for disaster.
(26:17):
one of the common things as you were mentioning Daniel, was that someone.
Is trying to do this work with their, dog and it's also understanding that dog's perspective of what their social interactions are, what their social needs are, what their stresses are.
And then it's also helping somebody understand that, especially if you've got no history and it is a rescue dog.
(26:38):
They just want a little dog to sit on their lap so they can love them and tickle them and it breaks their world and shatters their dream of having this dog that you love and cuddle and it's a companion What do you mean I mustn't touch my dog? most dogs like to be touched, but this particular dog is a bit sensitive in that social aspect.
going back to what Daniel said finding that social need for that individual dog.
(27:01):
What works for them in building that bond as well with the guardian and family member.
So everyone feels that their relationship is improving, but everyone's also less stressed, more set up for success, and the bond improves.
Leads us full circle, doesn't it? Back to the humans, the whole giving dogs choice, giving them agency and letting them make.
(27:24):
Small decisions, safe decisions.
But still letting them make the decision to empower them.
And even if it's which toy do you wanna play with? Or you are rotating their toys, so you've got some away and then you have some out, and then maybe the next day you put those away and get the ones that are away out giving them the opportunity to choose.
(27:48):
How they engage and when they engage, and who they engage with, if that's a dog or a human.
It's really, important that we also respect their decision, as in when they choose to say no, and that we recognize that they're saying, no, That's not what I want to happen.
I don't want to go near that person please.
(28:08):
Or that dog or that thing.
No thanks.
we're always.
Encouraging people to invite the dog into their space and not encroach into the dog space.
So the dog's got the choice to not approach if it doesn't want to.
It really grieves me when I see dogs tied up outside school gates while the parent has gone in, or guardian guardians spun in to get the, and then all the kids come out and you've got a dog tied to a school gate and all the children coming in over the dog's head to say hello.
(28:39):
because it's a Labrador, maybe the guardian doesn't think it'll bite.
But if I was strung up by my neck and loads of quick moving, beings over my head, I'd be tempted to snap as well.
anyway, Daniel, I'm really keen to talk to you about something now.
The podcast is powered by Canine Principles, and canine principles are sponsoring an event that you've got coming up very soon.
(29:05):
Can you tell us all about it? Yeah, so we are very excited to have, you and the Canine Principals team, sponsoring, our conference this year, which is literally is coming up, next week.
So week and three days until we start really, and it's a two day dog behavior conference in.
Kent, the southeast of England.
(29:26):
we also live stream it, so you can tune in from anywhere in the world, which is the brilliant thing.
we've got some amazing speakers that are gonna be there talking about resilience in dogs, which I know is one of the reasons we touched on that as a topic for today.
Some incredible people.
We've got, Suzanne Clavia, Victoria Stillwell, Andrew Hale, Kathy Murphy, who's an incredible neuroscientist.
(29:49):
Bobby Bury, who's doing a talk with her as well.
I can't name everyone because.
we've got so many people but we've got, a fantastic lineup it's a lovely social event as well.
being able to meet with people like you guys from all over the world that work with dogs and have that opportunity get a sense of.
What everyone's individual world and profession looks like.
(30:11):
'cause I think that's one of the challenges for us in our jobs is it can be quite isolating sometimes.
And it can be quite, we don't often, unless you're just running a big franchise and even if you're running a franchise store, you're still often working on a one-to-one basis or a group class basis with clients, Other colleagues.
So it's nice to have that opportunity, to spend some time with other people that are facing the same things you are on a day-to-day basis.
(30:35):
I dunno about you, but when I talk to friends and family members, I'm like, can't we talk about dogs? we have normal conversations about stuff, but to spend a few days immersed just in dog geek mode with other people who don't mind me being a dog geek, like my friends, I'm so jealous.
(30:55):
They're used to it by now.
But just to be able to have conversations about the nervous system and.
Different cortisol levels and stuff that we've touched on this evening, to spend a whole two days completely immersed in dog geek land learning.
Crazy.
So many good names on the lineup.
(31:17):
if people want to grab tickets, there's still tickets available.
ticket sales close.
Next Thursday, so Basically seven days until they close.
You can join in person, you can join online.
If you're going in person, there's a couple of extra seminars in the hotel the day before and the day after the conference.
(31:37):
So if you want to immerse yourself even more in person, there's that opportunity as well.
There's a seminar on resilience the day before and a seminar on shelter behavior with Tom Candy and Trish McMillan, who are both just amazing people in the shelter industry.
Trish's based in the us.
She's just works in shelters and done amazing things working with some really difficult cases.
(31:58):
Tom, has spent many years working, for the Dogs Trust in the uk breadth of experience between them both.
And just super excited to see what they're gonna be talking about together is gonna be so useful for anyone working in that field.
In the rescue field.
In the shelter field for sure.
So I there for it.
I just hope I've got some brain left after the Saturday and Sunday.
(32:20):
Oh my goodness.
This is amazing and it's so great that you can also just get it online for people who live far away.
Yeah, it's so good because I'm so jealous.
but that's amazing for the online because that can be so valuable to everyone around the world, and it's so good that they have that opportunity to get that access.
Yeah, absolutely.
(32:41):
And there's a little cocktail party going on the Saturday night, isn't there Daniel? There is.
And I have spent a lot of time picking out the cocktails, so it was my favorite thing to do.
I won't spend time actually doing any of the planning or the boring.
(33:01):
Fantastic.
Oh, we're really looking forward to it.
So where can people grab tickets? if you go to our website, if you Google BK conference or a BK 2025, it should all be that.
What I'm gonna do is just pop the link in the comments, so anyone who is watching, I'm just gonna do it right now.
(33:22):
And you need to act quick because the deadline is coming and it is round the corner.
So please do come and say hello.
I'm gonna be there on the canine principles and the International Institute for Canine Ethics.
Stands with the wonderful Jay Den, who's a former podcast guest renowned canine author.
I think it was a signal.
(33:44):
Are you back? Oh, there we go.
Sorry.
It just froze.
Come and say hello at the A BK conference.
The link is in the comments right now.
please do come and say hi.
Get your tickets, and if you can come to the cocktail party on the Saturday night.
I look forward to raising a toast with you.
Amazing.
(34:06):
You know what? We've got a red carpet as well.
They've told me that they're putting out a red carpet for the cocktail party, so that's exciting.
Have no idea what it will look like.
Am I going to have to wear shoes that aren't wellies? There's no dress code though, It's dog training.
(34:27):
You just don't own something with no hair on when you've got dogs.
The red carpet would probably be covered in dog hair anyway.
Oh thank you so much for joining us this evening, Daniel.
Really? Oh, thank you.
This morning for Emily.
It's been an absolute joy to have you on and, if people haven't already checked out the conference, I'm sure they will now before ticket sales close, hopefully we.
(34:50):
See you there to learn from some of the best names in the industry.
Next on the Dog Expert podcast, we have a fantastic lady coming on to talk to us about.
All things separation anxiety.
So keep an eye out.
(35:10):
It's great to have you back em because EM'S been off for a few weeks, but we've got it back.
And I know separation anxiety is one of your favorite topics.
I'll look forward to seeing you all next time.
Have a great week, everyone.
(35:31):
Bye bye.
Thank you for listening to the Dog Expert podcast, the podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
If you've enjoyed this episode, come and let us know in our free Facebook group for dog lovers Everywhere Ethical Dog Training with canine principles.
That way we can make more content like this that you'll love.
(35:54):
We would love for you to leave a review and hit subscribe so that you never miss an episode.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.