May 21, 2025 • 57 mins
Living with a reactive dog can be overwhelming, isolating and misunderstood.
But you’re not alone - and your dog isn’t broken.
In this powerful episode, Jo Middleton and Emily Dustan are joined by reactive dog expert and author, Jay Gurden. Together they unpack what reactivity really is, why it happens and how to support your dog with empathy, science, and calm leadership.
From trigger stacking and thresholds to practical, force-free tools you can use today, this episode is packed with both heart and help.
You’ll learn:
- What’s really going on when your dog overreacts
- The emotional root of reactivity
- What to stop doing and what to start instead
- Tools for building safety, confidence, and trust
Because reactivity isn’t disobedience, it’s communication.
And your dog needs you to hear it.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:18):
Welcome to the Dog Expert Podcast.
The podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
Powered by canine principles.com.
Helping passionate dog people go from feeling unsure and overwhelmed to confident, compassionate, and science savvy through a rich library of online courses and formal qualifications.
(00:42):
Each week on the podcast, we dive deep into the real, raw and rewarding world of dogs.
This isn't about obedience.
This is about understanding because dogs aren't problems to solve.
They're free thinking, sentient beings to connect with.
(01:06):
Hello? Hello.
Good evening.
Hello.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Good evening, wherever.
You're welcome Back to the Dog Expert Podcast.
This is.
Four.
And it's all about having a reactive dog and what you do.
(01:28):
so little catch up.
Emily, how have you been? How's your week? Good.
Full on.
been amazing.
Again, excited for this topic because it's such a common problem.
It's one of my favorites.
Absolutely.
reactivity doesn't necessarily stem from a dog.
Sparking and lunging out reactivity is your internal driver, right? Whatever reactive responses that are happening in the system that causes the behavior.
(01:58):
so it's the dog who is even over aroused, overly excitable, where you see these excessive excitable behaviors that would also be reactivity in a sense, but it's these heightened emotions.
From this aspect of reactivity that causes the lunging, aggression, fearful responses.
(02:20):
And most of the time it is based in fear.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think if people listening haven't listened before, we should introduce ourselves before I go down a little rabbit hole with that.
Yeah, so let's introduce ourselves because this is Love us.
One of my favorites too.
if you haven't listened before, my name's Jamie Dalton and Emily Dustin and I co-host, the Dog Expert podcast, season one.
(02:49):
I head up canine principals.
I'm the principal.
of the International School for Canine Psychology and also Director of the International Institute for Canine Ethics.
most of all, I'm just a dog geek.
A dog mom, and have worked in rescue for a very long time.
completely, obsessed with cognitive led dog rehabilitation, post-trauma.
(03:13):
Emily, would you like to introduce yourself? Hello again.
I'm Emily Dustin.
I own and run Sea Spot Learn here in Auckland New Zealand.
my goal is to help families manage their dog's challenging behavior with the most humane, ethical approach.
I specialize in puppyhood development as well as reactivity and separation and isolation distress.
(03:37):
Fantastic.
before when we were backstage, Emily posed a really interesting question to myself and our guest expert who's coming on this evening.
The.
Fabulous.
Jay Gordon.
Emily asked, what our favorite dog book was, and that is just sort of how long is a piece of string kind of question.
(04:00):
It really is a difficult answer.
but I didn't have time to answer, so, I'm, instead of saying what my favorite book is, because I.
Simply can't answer that.
there are way too many, the book I'm reading at the moment is actually by one of our previous podcasts.
Jessica Pierce, it's called Who's a Good Dog and how to be a better human.
(04:24):
And I'm really enjoying it.
The way that Jessica writes is just Ace.
there's a book that she's written with Mark Beckoff that's really cool You might know it.
where basically it's like, what if.
There were no humans and dogs were just being themselves.
What behaviors would we see? What would breeding look like? what would be normal natural behaviors.
(04:44):
When there's no human influence.
it is just a really cool book.
So I was really excited for this one.
And Jessica sent me a copy and I'm loving it.
it's really cool.
it's all about a dog called Bella, but anyway, I won't, I won't go much otherwise we'll never get to talk about reactivity.
what was your favorite book? again, there's not about a favorite, but there are definitely two books in my, Academic career and studying One of them was Birch and Bailey, how Dogs Learn.
(05:14):
even though I kind of had an idea about how we've learned about behavior in science, the history was really important that book was such a great way for me to help explain to clients certain things and why these methods are outdated.
That's why it's here today and why we don't do them anymore.
(05:34):
that was really insightful.
And Jacque.
so in Afrikaans we would say Jock, but I dunno if it's jock.
In English.
Jacque, Jacque, Penske is my, I absolutely, that is right up my alley.
we were saying about how, well, Jay was saying, backstage about how, Her books is a published author of some amazing books, and, you really must go on Amazon and just type j Gerin in and check them out.
(06:02):
building the Bond, the most recent one is an absolute cracker, but her first book about reactivity really, hits home.
But, the other books in between, I'll let Jay tell you about that.
I've gone off down a little rabbit hole.
See, this is my, That's okay.
What we talking about? we just wing it.
We just wing it.
Yes.
So, yes, it was saying about how with her books, she likes to take those, more.
(06:25):
The, the things that maybe might put some readers off because you need to read every sentence five times before a sentence in and I, and takes that information and makes it into plain English.
Really the Yeah, we can understand, and that's what Jay's books do.
They are just.
So easy to read compared to like, oh, I love that books, pen's like complex to read though, don't you agree? Yeah.
(06:50):
even in the beginning of the book it says, this book is aimed at teachers or parents.
you do not have to memorize every single line, but even if you take away one small thing from this book, it can have an effect on how you approach a behavior because of the emotional influence.
the fact with Jay, is one of the things I think, and myself included, always strive for, is to give that information in easy language without overwhelming the person to help them.
(07:17):
So with no further ado, let's introduce Jay and bring Jay on.
Jay actually, began her journey in dog training and behavior as a sheep farmer working with border colleagues.
Whilst her farming days are behind her now, her passion for understanding dogs and supporting their needs remains stronger than ever.
(07:38):
she is herself.
ProMED dog science geek like us.
So Jay fits in, not really well.
Jay combines, hands-on experience with years of study.
to help others build better relations with dogs.
she is an accomplished author and she's also an educator as a tutor for canine principals in the international school for canine psychologies.
(08:05):
her focus is really on empowering others and helping them grow in confidence as well as educating.
she has a particular interest in Posta syndrome, which is rife in the dog world.
and so often we see, People who are very confident, but using outdated methods, having a louder voice than those that are practicing ethically and maybe don't have the confidence because they're struggling with imposter syndrome.
(08:32):
the work that Jay does is really important.
reactivity is her niche and she is here to talk to us about.
All things reactivity.
So Jay, welcome to the podcast.
podcast listening to what you're saying about EP and actually EP in building the bond.
(08:56):
Ah, so I did that? Yeah.
Yeah, there is actually some tanks up in there as much as I could get into plain English.
'cause it's not the easiest.
it's good.
One of our previous podcast guests, Linda Michaels, is also in building the bond with her hierarchy of needs, isn't she? Yep.
Yeah.
Fantastic.
Yeah.
she very kindly allowed me to, use that and expand on it as to how it can work with building that relationship with Job further.
(09:20):
Fantastic.
That is amazing.
So I guess really, 'cause we kind of talked about most other things, we should talk about reactivity because that's what this podcast episode's about.
as we have learned over the weeks of season one, we could talk dog all night.
(09:40):
Reactivity in my mind is very much misunderstood.
it can be a word that is banded about when actually, it doesn't necessarily mean that the dog is aggressive.
It doesn't mean that the dog is broken in some way.
how would you define reactivity in behavioral terms? I have kind of a love hate relationship with the term reactivity.
(10:05):
It's great as a label because people understand it, but what people tend to think of when they think of reactivity is this stereotypical lunging and barking.
And it goes so much deeper than that.
So what I tend to use the word reactive to kind of catch the attention of the people who need to see what I'm talking about.
And then once I've got them.
(10:26):
and I'm able to speak to them, I switch it to sensitive complex.
for me, reactivity, when you define a reaction, it's sort of a response to something generally in the environment, at least in the early stages.
and that can be anything from a slight startle, a look right the way up to those.
Big feeling moments.
(10:46):
you do see the button and the lung, but the thing is that generally comes quite a long way after the whole situation's begun.
So what is really important for me is to help people see those early stages, when the dog is first starting to be worried about something so that we can avoid getting to that point.
Yep.
Because I've been that person on the end of the lead while a dog has been barking and lunging, and it's such a lonely place.
(11:13):
So anything that I can do to help stop those dogs and people from getting there is, really important for me.
that's also the next step because.
With the person that you're trying to help their emotions amplify their behaviors.
They're overwhelmed.
They're embarrassed.
They feel that their dog's behavior is a poor reflection upon them.
So their approach to it is their flight and fight.
(11:36):
So it's impulsive and that's where you get the pulling the yanking, they're trying to stop it immediately, because to them, that's their threat, right? That is their threat from their brain.
And then what happens is the dog is already dealing with their own thing in their own world.
they're responding to what they perceive as threatening.
it's this circle of reactivity that just continues it's understanding first and foremost.
(11:58):
And, when we were already talking.
It's that bond that you have in your book.
Jay, with the bond now that bond isn't just bond relationship.
Great.
We're best friends, but I love my dog already.
The bond also entails safety If the dog does not feel safe with you because of previous negative associations, then you are unsafe and unpredictable.
(12:22):
So the dog already in a distressed state and is not coping, you may unintentionally add more layers to the situation.
So it's that bond first.
with, as you mentioned earlier, Linda, Michael said you could expand on that, which is amazing 'cause that's why we're all here for education.
And it's that creating that safety in the sense of the bond also entails environmental management, proactive approaches to prevent the rehearsal of that unwanted behavior.
(12:49):
Putting that dog in a position to continue to rehearse it and fail.
So much of what you said there really, really strikes home with me.
I have in the last few years undergone quite a difference actually in the way that I work with reactive dogs because I started learning about reactive dogs because I had a reactive dog.
(13:09):
I think, so many of us, we end up finding our nieces because that dog findings us.
And yeah, that dog found me.
He's down here asleep at the moment.
I love the bones of him.
He's not easy.
He never will be, but without him I wouldn't be here.
I started writing about reactivity.
I, started writing because you could find so much content on how to help the dog, but there was nothing to really support the person.
(13:33):
that was the drive of my first book was just as like, reach the people like me, who just, all of us, it seemed like, you know, in hindsight I know it's not how it happened, but all of a sudden everything went horribly wrong.
Yeah, and you know, this is 30 years of working with border colleagues and I've never come across a dog like this.
So, you know, if that can happen to me with all those years, it can happen to a lot of people.
(13:55):
But through working with him and letting him teach me what he needs, because he's an interesting dog.
He works quite differently to how a lot of the time we recommend people work with reactive dogs.
And he is the one who taught me about the importance of that bond.
And he has now moved me away from what I used to do, which was all decentralization, counter conditioning, you know, it was all, the science backed.
(14:23):
I learned with him.
He's actually best off if you let him sit and look and think about things, we always say to people, don't let your dog sit and look at things 'cause they'll fixate.
But for this dog and others like him, that's what.
So yeah, it's finding what he needs and through doing that, it impressed on me that there needs to be this bond, especially with these sensitive dogs, because they need to know that mom or dad has got their back.
(14:51):
they need to know that mom and dad will understand, and if they tell us that they're stressed.
We will do whatever they need, whether that's get them outta the situation.
They can tell us what they need and know that we will take the action that they need.
And when you start doing that, you actually find that they can stretch their boundaries that much more because they know if it gets a bit much, all I've got to do is tell Mum and she'll get me out of it.
(15:15):
Yeah.
there are so many things here that I wanna talk about so emotional safety, not just for the dog, but for the human as well.
the human's lack of emotional safety, their fear reaction before anything happens because they're anticipating something happens.
Yes, it's going to be picked up on, on the dog, and that's gonna have the snowball effect, and that's going to mean that the situation gets.
(15:39):
Exacerbated far more quickly.
A bit like a touch paper going up.
Stripping it back to the emotional safety, making sure that you've got that bond.
Making sure that you are the ally and the teammate with the dog.
You are together as a unit, and the dog can trust you to listen.
When they're saying, no, I don't want to go that way, because they're picking up on something that they're not sure about, you are not going to force.
(16:05):
Them.
You are going to choose to go a different way and they're able to rely on you to listen to their micro communications as well as their bigger, more reactive lunging.
You are looking at things further back and you're picking up on the more subtle behavioral changes.
like just an increase in breath rate.
(16:26):
Yeah, I mean, I watch my dogs just breathing.
They must think I'm a right nut.
but it gives you so much insight and information.
It really does.
But then the sleep, the nutrition, are they in any pain? Because that's gonna build and build on that reactivity.
and making sure that we're, looking for what triggers might have created a pattern in the past, that they're repeating.
(16:55):
when we talk about triggers, Jay, what would you say are the most common triggers? it's most commonly other dogs.
for instance, with my dog, when he was four and a half months old, he was attacked.
that was the end of his journey.
there are so many factors that can go into a dog becoming reactive, and he's kind of all of them.
(17:16):
His mom was nervous.
He was ill during the socialization window, so we couldn't take him out and about because they weren't quite sure what it was.
when he was better, he was just outside the window.
We started trying to get him out and about, and in hindsight, maybe pushed it a little bit further than he was able to cope with, that was the point at which he got attacked.
(17:37):
he got attacked by big, big Brindle, Mastiff, and he started off being afraid of.
Big dark dogs then it was dark dogs, light dogs, all dogs.
And then it was generalization.
People with dogs.
Yeah.
People, yeah, he is dog and people reactive.
those are his triggers.
Triggers can be anything.
(17:58):
I do a lot.
Every dog is individual.
Yep.
And absolutely dog triggers will be individual, and sometimes they won't make sense to the human, and sometimes the human will never even know what triggered it in the first place, and that's okay.
But it's the response that, is communication.
That's what we're, we often you'll find, you know, that people will say, well, you know, it's silly he's not in any danger, but that, that doesn't matter from the dog perspective.
(18:25):
perceived real or imagined.
But it could be, you dunno.
But then kind of learn other triggers as well.
For instance, Finn has a pretty good recourse.
We do have time, so we can have him off lead.
He spends most of his time on a long line if there are other people around.
but he does get off lead time, but if you call him back, suddenly he goes.
(18:47):
What is it? Where is it? What am I supposed to be bothered? So he's actually learned that being called back can mean that we've spotted something before he has.
So we've had to keep calling him back just to try and break that pattern because as soon as you call him back, he's looking for what he's supposed to be bothered about.
Clever dog.
(19:09):
So, and it also depends on the dog's association of the, of the pattern of behavior, right? So if you're always calling ahead of time, like.
The hand in the treat pouch before the trigger comes, then your hand becomes the predictor.
Something scary is coming and the dog's looking for it because they're like, oh, you only do that when something scary is about to happen.
(19:30):
that cue something.
Oh, my hand's going in the treat pouch dog's going, oh no, and then you get there.
But I give my dog treats and it's.
It's breaking it down into those little things.
'cause dog's main form of communication is body language and they're so good at predicting patterns of behavior.
Yeah.
they know the difference between the walking shoes and the going to work shoes and your patterns of behavior because that is a behavioral response.
(19:55):
can we talk about the nervous system a little bit? this might be, your bag because the role of the nervous system.
When reactivity is happening with the four, five Fs now, isn't it? I wonder how many more refs, well, I can think of a few.
Maybe not suitable for the podcast, but do you, do you wanna expand a bit about what's actually going on in the dog's nervous system when that reactivity is building up and happening? Well, in the autonomic system we have our sympathetic and our parasympathetic part, right? And they can fluctuate.
(20:33):
this is all involuntary responses that go with our freeze flight, flight, fidget, and everything.
These come to receptors.
What? The dog hears what the dog sees, also what the dog feels.
So when Jay mentioned earlier, it's from the individual's perspective, real or perceived.
It doesn't matter.
and as an example for listeners, I am not afraid of snakes.
(20:57):
They don't bother me.
I've been exposed to them enough.
That I don't get a startle response from them if I see them.
Okay, I might go, oh, there's a snake.
get the pool net.
But then I can regulate and adapt to the situation relatively quickly.
Now, for a dog.
There's influencing factors of genetics.
(21:18):
Either they're born with a more heightened response where that's sensitivity, right? the critical stages of puppyhood development, either.
Exposure or the lack thereof.
if they've never been exposed to it or if they've been isolated and not exposed during that critical period, when their brain is open-minded to novel and new experiences, it changes how they see things, especially if they've never seen something before.
(21:42):
Now, when we get that reactive response, it's either stems from that startle response, so I see something or I've heard something, and then.
Your amygdala sets off, which is your alarm system, checks in with your hippocampus, which is your, sorry, your hippocampus, which is where your memory, some of the memory log, and that is a very fast, this is not like, Hey, what's going on? Oh, this is what's happening.
(22:07):
It's as fast as switching a light on and that that el, that electrical signal will kind of go from seen it.
Heard it to.
are we in danger? Are we gonna die? Oh, yep, we're gonna die.
Oh yeah, we could die.
And then it travels through your hip axis, which is your hypothalamus and pituitary gland.
And then that sets off your nervous system.
And that is where the dog cannot control if they freeze.
(22:32):
Go into a state of, I can't deal with this, so I'm just gonna close my eyes and avoid it, and everything will be okay.
Like a deer in the lights.
Or it's that I'm gonna get you before you get me to survive, and all the avoidance of the flight.
But the problem lies with the lead is that the lead restricts the dog's ability to engage or disengage from a perceived threat.
So if they can't run away and increase their distance, they're left with what? Look how scary I am, bark, bark, bark.
(22:58):
Stay away from me to deter the threat.
And then what we need to consider from a guardian perspective, and it is horrific.
when you are out and you've got a reactive dog, you are embarrassed, you are frustrated, you are, you want it to stop.
(23:19):
And from a human point of view, knowing all of that stuff's going on inside of the dogs.
Brain and it's outside of the, it's going on.
Knees control isn't something that most of us know.
to understand that and think, okay, my dog isn't deliberately.
(23:40):
Being difficult.
They are having a difficult time themselves, we need to strip this back to how can I help and support them, rather than putting them in a position where they feel that reacting isn't where they're going through all of that.
Stuff in their nervous system.
(24:01):
Mm-hmm.
And they feel they have no option but to react.
Jake, do you still come across a lot of, punishment corrections, dominance myths, that kind of stuff? harsh handling.
Okay.
and what are your thoughts? yeah.
You still see a lot of people going, yeah, they're bad.
aggressive.
(24:24):
It is getting less slowly.
Okay.
but it is slowly from that human perspective, there is that embarrassment.
it's humiliating.
you are out with your dog and dogs are supposed to be easy, Everyone can have a dog.
there's so much more that goes on than is often the common perception Of living with a dog.
Yeah.
(24:46):
I have a love hate relationship with Disney because of what they've told us about dogs.
You know, you can have like four dalmatians and it'll be fine.
there is this perception in media, you know, and not just like facetious ones like that, Lassie renting tin, you know, all of these portrayal of dogs been that, that you know that, that they are easy and.
(25:07):
very clever.
Now we know that dogs are, in fact very clever, but not quite in the way of those portrayals, which yeah, it, it leads us into more complications because you then, as well as the people who say they're being bad and aggressive.
You sometimes get people who say they're doing it deliberately.
And that, you know, they're acting up to get what they want, the dominance thing.
(25:27):
it's trying to get people to understand that, actually this is more like a phobia.
There is no reason in a phobia, if you think about, if you're scared of spiders, if someone puts a spider on your shoulder, you are gonna freak out.
There is no spider.
If your child saw a spider and they screamed, would you smack them because they were being naughty? Yeah, exactly.
(25:47):
You go, oh, there's a spider.
Come darling, move this way.
The spider's more scared of you than you are of them, you know? if you translate that to a dog in an animal sense.
Dog sets off, bark, bark, bark or reacts or responds.
And with talking about what you mentioned earlier with the 1 0 1 dull motions, I absolutely love that, by the way.
I'm gonna use that in future.
Yeah, that's fair.
(26:08):
resource guarding is also a reactivity, right? Because the dog is protecting what they perceive as valuable.
these stems of reactivity, even if it's an involuntary Response and the dog is just reacting to survive because this all stems for survival in our primitive wiring.
And like you, like you said earlier, when we're talking about our sympathetic and parasympathetic part of our nervous system, it's our primitive brain.
(26:29):
It's our primitive wiring, live or die survival of the fittest.
there is no logic, rhyme or reason to it.
It's what the individual perceives as this could cause me to die.
And the brain just goes, you need to survive And the responses follow.
So it's what they learn in that moment with associative learning that takes place.
(26:49):
'cause if I growl and you take your hand away from the shoe, that smells really nice and delicious to chew, that works.
That's how I communicate it to you, that I don't want you coming near my space.
then.
You get that the dog is being dominant, the dog is trying to control you, the dog is trying to show you that they're leader and take control of an object that's yours.
No, the dog is trying to survive.
(27:10):
'cause they perceive that as valuable and you're taking it away from them.
They've learned, they go growling makes you go away.
Okay.
That's how I talk to you.
I will growl.
And the same goes with the reactivity.
Although sometimes that can be a bit more complex because as the human, The human is embarrassed and startled, and they are panicked, so they don't respond appropriately, and it's not intentional.
(27:37):
then what happens is they panic, they hear or see that response and it's just that circle that happens all over again.
But again, when it comes to that reactivity.
That punishment and correction is still in my area.
and especially in South Africa, it's still very prominent where that advice is given.
(27:57):
So when a dog is displaying behavior that could be seen as reactive behavior, if we are.
Not addressing the root cause of why that behavior is happening.
I always strip it back to that emotional safety and whether the dog has the emotional toolkit to feel safe once you've met the basic needs, obviously.
(28:22):
I put emotional safety in there with that.
if we are not addressing those underlying reasons why the dog is displaying that reactivity and its nervous system is taking that course, then all we are doing is suppressing.
That behavior, and we are going to see behavior that is undesired manifesting in other areas as a result, we're also going to be breaching the bond that we've spoken about.
(28:53):
we are going to be damaging its emotional safety rather than making sure that it has those firm foundations to act in a way.
And, stretch itself slightly so that it can become more resilient with time.
we are also putting things on our timeline rather than on the dog's timeline.
(29:14):
one of the things that I see way too often, and I'm sure I've been guilty of it myself, is people moving their dogs to a desired.
Outcome too quickly rather than observing and noting what's going on with the dog's body language and making sure that.
If there is a day where things have gone back a few steps, that's okay.
(29:39):
We move backwards to that emotional safety, those underpinning, areas that make sure that the dog is able to have the full cognitive function it needs to be able to.
Deal with things and, and its nervous system is able to cope well.
How would you recommend that someone, what are the first steps, Jay, for someone who's got a dog with reactive behavior, the first thing for me is teaching people that if your dog is struggling in a situation, the most important thing you can do for your dog and yourself is to get out of that situation.
(30:13):
Dogs cannot learn when they're in that panic state, they are literally in survival mode.
There is no learning that can go on.
So you need to get them away, get 'em somewhere to where they can feel safe and something that surprises a lot of people.
When I say, especially considering the fact that I have border colleagues, don't walk your dog.
(30:34):
If your dog is struggling and going out on the daily walk is causing problems.
Don't walk your dog when we first started working with him, in a month he went out for two walks and he was fine because, we did stuff at home.
You know, we played games.
he had to go at agility, which was fine until he learned that he could jump through the jumps rather than over them.
(30:55):
And then that stopped very quickly.
Bless intelligent colleagues.
we did lots of brain work.
scatter feeding, all of these things that are really nice and calming and just kept me away from the outside world.
when we did walk, we walked at four o'clock in the morning.
Yes.
Yeah, it was absolute pain because it was like October, November, it was wet, it was cold.
(31:16):
It was miserable.
But he was so happy.
Yeah, it was.
Yeah.
But those enrichment activities, yeah, those enrichment activities and that mental stimulation will tie them out.
I'm sure I've said it before on the podcast, but I'm, it, I.
Pretty sure it was Suzanne Clavia years ago, maybe 20 15, 20 16, said that 10 minutes of mental stimulation is worth an hour's physical.
(31:42):
And it does fire them out.
if you are solving the problems with them, you are building that bond with the dog and working with them.
there's one point with Finn where I took him.
Somewhere very quiet, but there was a car park that ran along a footpath where people and dogs had gone past.
we spent 10 minutes and in that 10 minutes we went five yards, literally, no distance at all.
(32:03):
But we got in the car, we came home and my highly energetic border collie was upside down on the sofa for two and a half hours.
Flat out, because he was just so busy processing.
one of my favorite things ever to tell people is the sniff.
Just go out and let Sari decide where they want to go and sniff 10, 15, 20 minutes, but so many sniffing.
(32:25):
So many dogs that come to us, so many fosters that come to us, don't.
Seem to know how to sniff because they've never been allowed to explore with their noses like that.
we have to Scatter food and treats a little bit and encourage them to teach them.
Do it with them at first.
until they get used to doing it for themselves and realize that it's, okay.
They can do that, and it's safe and everything's all right.
(32:47):
So you'd say take them away.
Absolutely.
Show them that you are capable of making that decision to take the flight option to keep both of you safe.
They don't need to protect you.
You are protecting both of you.
Yeah, that's okay.
You are able to do that for them.
Something that a lot of people don't seem to be aware of is trigger stacking.
(33:09):
I wonder if we could pick your brains a little bit about trigger stacking and reactivity.
Jay, I have an example that I use for that, that I have used in my books and my example is you go to the supermarket, right? You go to the supermarket, it's perfect.
you get to the end and someone cuts you off in the line.
(33:29):
they give you this smile.
It's no big deal.
They've just got a few bits and pieces.
It's fine.
Go back to the start of your trip.
Walk out of the front door.
Car's got a flat tire.
You get going.
All the traffic lights are red.
You get to the supermarket, there's no spaces in the car park.
You have to park right over the other side, and the last space is next to somebody who can't park.
(33:51):
So they're hanging over into your space.
You go into the shop, you've got that trolley, the one that will not go where you steer it.
So by the time you've been around the whole shop, your back's getting sore, your neck's getting sore.
You're finally getting to the end.
You're in the queue and this person barges in front of you and gives you this big sm but anybody looking on would say it's come out of nowhere.
(34:16):
Exactly.
people often don't understand trigger stacking and the lower level signs to look for, it looks like it's come out of nowhere, but it has been building And it's so important because the trigger stacking is those little events, It doesn't just happen in one day, that is such a great way to help people learn or understand what the trigger stacking is because it's for the dog's perspective, going out for the walk, you know, sometimes, you're so right.
(34:44):
Stopping just for a bit to give them that cortisol holiday.
the dog needs time to breathe because if you continuously walk, the dog must walk.
We must go for walks every day.
Walk, walk, walk.
The dog is so conflicted when they go out that door.
I.
Of anticipation over arousal or fear and excitement that's already an event on its own.
(35:04):
By the time you've got the harness, that is the trigger for the dog.
We are going out, all these emotions happening.
The door is another event going down the road.
The dog is anticipating.
So we've already got three events or four depending on the dog, Going through, conflicting emotions of I wanna go out, I don't wanna go out, but there could be something, and I know I'm projecting and humanizing, but it's the best way to help somebody understand There's a smell.
(35:30):
Oh no, there's someone there, there's a dog.
oh no.
Now I'm out.
The lead's on, something's gonna happen.
Something's in the distance.
The smell's so good.
that's where you get those dogs who rush past the roses.
But I'm not relaxed enough to stop and sniff and take their time to smell.
Yeah.
And not only are they going through all that emotions, but they've lost their flight option and they can't run away from whatever.
(35:52):
Is spooking them, or whatever the perceived threat that there is, because they're tied to you with the lead and they have no choice because you are in control.
so I'm not saying you should let them off, but just to understand what you can do, when you can understand what is going on.
you've got the idea of what's happening a lot of the time with people, and I used to do this myself.
(36:15):
When you are out with your dog, something might come and you tense up on the lead.
You know how sensitive dogs are.
They're gonna feel that.
and then they're gonna go, oh, mom's not happy.
There's something wrong.
What is it? Where is it? Yeah.
it goes back to that.
trying to get that co-regulation so you can both be calm, I recommend the course a holiday for the people as well, The trigger second here, exactly the same as us.
(36:40):
They also need to breathe.
they need to also know it's okay.
This is not forever.
It's time to adjust.
It's just time to give you both a breather.
I loved what you mentioned earlier when you stopped taking your dog for that walk and you were doing things in between.
and I tried to keep it in the back of my mind so I could say that because you are also then adjusting as you are learning what works and doesn't work for your dog you don't have that, that added pressure of trying to tackle that too.
(37:08):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So this is like the fastest hour of the week.
This podcast, I, well, it's supposed to be 45 minutes, but 40 to 45 minutes, but we keep running over because we could talk about it all night.
we've actually come to the conclusion it's really an hour and then we start running over that.
We'll be here all night every week.
(37:29):
It'll be amazing.
Can we do it? We can have activity part.
Yay.
That would be my favorite subject.
It's my favorite one.
Oh, I just wanna ask another question before we let Jay go.
Yes.
So many.
I'd say that we're all advocate for dogs.
(37:50):
Like we all, try our hardest to keep on learning and to, show up for our dogs and, protect them in this crazy world that we live in.
How do you advocate for your dog in public when you've got a reactive dog? I found this really, really difficult to start with.
(38:10):
but I have now I've become quite loud and obnoxious.
Did you use one of the Fs, Jay, did you, several of them together on one occasion.
I think I swore 30 seconds without repeating a single word.
Ooh.
And without drawing bread, I had this memory of maybe four or five years ago walking in some woods near us and I could hear a lot of dogs, but I could only hear one human voice.
(38:38):
So automatically I'm thinking, oh, this could be fun.
I stopped and just called, can you call your dog Please? And got Why? Well, 'cause I asked you in my local village, I'm now known as that one.
(38:58):
I got over the embarrassment of that very quickly.
Is that why you're moving? Yeah.
that's why I'm moving three hours away because everyone knows me around here now.
But it's really difficult at first because, you know, human nature, we don't like to stand out, we don't like to draw attention to ourselves a lot of the time.
I'm quite an introverted person naturally, until you do anything that threatens the happiness of my dogs.
(39:23):
one of my friends called me Mama Bear, and it comes out for my dogs.
you do not do anything to my dogs.
You do not say anything derogatory about my dogs, and you certainly do not threaten my dogs.
It gets easy with practice Rehearsal of behavior gets stronger over time.
My other job, you know, I've worked really, really hard to have her not have the same issues as him.
(39:44):
a couple of months back I had her out for a walk and we walked through a gap from one field into another, and there was a dog walker.
She got four or five dogs, I think, and she walked through the gap into the next field and one of the dogs turned around and just absolutely.
Like, you know, towards us, like an arrow.
So, and she's walking away and she's going, Angus, Angus, Angus the dog's name was Angus.
(40:06):
Angus doesn't appear to know that his name was Angus 'cause he was barking, he was growling and I just got her behind me and just stood in between and, you know, big as I could.
in the end, what I ended up doing, I grabbed a handful of treats at my treat pouch.
And just love them at 45 degrees.
Yeah.
For him to go.
So we could beat a hasty retreat.
(40:27):
the dog walk was in the next field.
She, paid no attention whatsoever.
I ducked through the hedge and we carried on.
He's friendly.
He'll be fine.
My two least favorite words when put together, I got the He's friendly.
Yeah, but I'm not.
(40:49):
So let's do it.
That's amazing.
Oh, Jay, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.
where can people find your books? Can you list them all and tell us? We're not gonna let you go part two.
That's fine.
I'm up for a part two if you want part.
Yeah.
Oh, let us know the comments if you want a part two if you're watching this, please.
(41:12):
The first one I wrote was called Fight or Flight, a Reactive Dog Guardian's Handbook.
and that is very much the one that was written to support people and help them see.
where they could find help.
I have a book on imposter syndrome, which I know Joe mentioned earlier for dog people.
I have a, a Facebook group for imposter syndrome for dog people that should be part of our part too.
(41:37):
'cause that's so important for people who work in this industry.
I, we differ.
That would be amazing.
My other pet love, my other pet and actually imposter syndrome and people who have reacted dogs can go quite well together.
So can I.
Emma, Emma and I brainstormed the subject for the podcast.
Have I preempted? We're in like 20, 28.
(42:00):
Yeah.
And she's like, yeah, let's do one on imposter syndrome.
I do genuinely think that, if we could help more people Manage their imposter syndrome effectively in the ethical dog space, that is going to unlock a massive tidal wave of, because its their confidence, helps them feel safe.
(42:23):
And no learning can take place when one is stressed.
because it inhibits learning, so we are just gonna clone Jay.
I think Jay and I are gonna be besties.
Yay.
I love your stuff as well.
I'm definitely up for that.
Has has had the biggest impact so far.
(42:44):
Be understanding reactive dogs.
that let me get my inner geek out because that goes into the whole, the nervous system, the hormones, the stress response.
Very much fun.
I just got my inner nerd out in that book.
It was great.
it's on Audible as well.
read by a fantastic, fantastic narrator.
And then the last one that has, has been released was building the Bond, which.
(43:05):
Yeah, it's not reactive specific, but everything in there applies the stronger the relationship you can have with your dog, the more you can help them when they are struggling.
little sneak peek of what's coming up.
There is another reactive dog book in the works, and this one is called Supporting a Reactive Dog.
So, kind of goes with that change in, in how I work with, with people and their dogs now to actually, rather than concentrating on counter conditioning desensitization, on actually using that bonding relationship and.
(43:33):
You know, teaching your dog that they can depend on you, that you've got their back.
ultimately people get or should get a dog.
Well, everyone should get a dog that is, is nice person.
But people.
people who have a dog and are struggling with reactivity, genuinely love their dogs and genuinely want.
(43:58):
To have that bond with their dogs.
That is fun, that is loving, that is a, a sort of, family member rather than someone they're struggling to bond with and that they're feeling, feeling feelings towards, that maybe are of frustration and anger and, that, that that's not what they want.
(44:19):
to have a book that supports.
The guardian and the dog as a team a family unit, is fantastic.
what I will say to people sometimes is, the relationship you have with these dogs, may not be what you expected.
for instance, with Finn, his world is a lot smaller than the average dog, But he loves his world.
He enjoys his world.
(44:40):
his life is not unfulfilled.
He's safe.
And to be honest, my life is fulfilled.
Seeing him feeling safe.
It's adjusting those expectations.
if you've enjoyed this week's podcast with the fabulous Jay Gordon, thank you so much for jumping on Jay.
then please do subscribe to our YouTube channel.
(45:01):
Give us a like and a share on Facebook, over on the canine principles.
Page and on Instagram, share us wherever you share things tell all your doggy friends, because we are on a mission to make.
owning a dog.
Being a dog guardian, a harmonious two-way street where the dog's emotional safety is paramount.
(45:25):
their physical safety is paramount too, but their emotional safety goes unrecognized and, we need to make sure that we are, shouting about how important that is.
next week, we have resource guarding as our final episode for season one, It's one of my favorites too.
(45:51):
we will see you next episode for resource guarding I hope you have a wonderful week.
Take care.
Bye bye everyone.
Thank you for listening to the Dog Expert Podcast, the podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
If you've enjoyed this episode, let us know in our free Facebook group for dog lovers Everywhere Ethical Dog Training with Canine principles.
(46:16):
we can make more content like this that you'll love.
We would love for you to leave a review on here and hit subscribe so you never miss an episode.
Welcome to the Dog Expert Podcast.
The podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
Powered by canine principles.com.
Helping passionate dog people go from feeling unsure and overwhelmed to confident, compassionate, and science savvy through a rich library of online courses and formal qualifications.
(00:42):
Each week on the podcast, we dive deep into the real, raw and rewarding world of dogs.
This isn't about obedience.
This is about understanding because dogs aren't problems to solve.
They're free thinking, sentient beings to connect with.
(01:06):
Hello? Hello.
Good evening.
Hello.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Good evening, wherever.
You're welcome Back to the Dog Expert Podcast.
This is.
Four.
And it's all about having a reactive dog and what you do.
(01:28):
so little catch up.
Emily, how have you been? How's your week? Good.
Full on.
been amazing.
Again, excited for this topic because it's such a common problem.
It's one of my favorites.
Absolutely.
reactivity doesn't necessarily stem from a dog.
Sparking and lunging out reactivity is your internal driver, right? Whatever reactive responses that are happening in the system that causes the behavior.
(01:58):
so it's the dog who is even over aroused, overly excitable, where you see these excessive excitable behaviors that would also be reactivity in a sense, but it's these heightened emotions.
From this aspect of reactivity that causes the lunging, aggression, fearful responses.
(02:20):
And most of the time it is based in fear.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think if people listening haven't listened before, we should introduce ourselves before I go down a little rabbit hole with that.
Yeah, so let's introduce ourselves because this is Love us.
One of my favorites too.
if you haven't listened before, my name's Jamie Dalton and Emily Dustin and I co-host, the Dog Expert podcast, season one.
(02:49):
I head up canine principals.
I'm the principal.
of the International School for Canine Psychology and also Director of the International Institute for Canine Ethics.
most of all, I'm just a dog geek.
A dog mom, and have worked in rescue for a very long time.
completely, obsessed with cognitive led dog rehabilitation, post-trauma.
(03:13):
Emily, would you like to introduce yourself? Hello again.
I'm Emily Dustin.
I own and run Sea Spot Learn here in Auckland New Zealand.
my goal is to help families manage their dog's challenging behavior with the most humane, ethical approach.
I specialize in puppyhood development as well as reactivity and separation and isolation distress.
(03:37):
Fantastic.
before when we were backstage, Emily posed a really interesting question to myself and our guest expert who's coming on this evening.
The.
Fabulous.
Jay Gordon.
Emily asked, what our favorite dog book was, and that is just sort of how long is a piece of string kind of question.
(04:00):
It really is a difficult answer.
but I didn't have time to answer, so, I'm, instead of saying what my favorite book is, because I.
Simply can't answer that.
there are way too many, the book I'm reading at the moment is actually by one of our previous podcasts.
Jessica Pierce, it's called Who's a Good Dog and how to be a better human.
(04:24):
And I'm really enjoying it.
The way that Jessica writes is just Ace.
there's a book that she's written with Mark Beckoff that's really cool You might know it.
where basically it's like, what if.
There were no humans and dogs were just being themselves.
What behaviors would we see? What would breeding look like? what would be normal natural behaviors.
(04:44):
When there's no human influence.
it is just a really cool book.
So I was really excited for this one.
And Jessica sent me a copy and I'm loving it.
it's really cool.
it's all about a dog called Bella, but anyway, I won't, I won't go much otherwise we'll never get to talk about reactivity.
what was your favorite book? again, there's not about a favorite, but there are definitely two books in my, Academic career and studying One of them was Birch and Bailey, how Dogs Learn.
(05:14):
even though I kind of had an idea about how we've learned about behavior in science, the history was really important that book was such a great way for me to help explain to clients certain things and why these methods are outdated.
That's why it's here today and why we don't do them anymore.
(05:34):
that was really insightful.
And Jacque.
so in Afrikaans we would say Jock, but I dunno if it's jock.
In English.
Jacque, Jacque, Penske is my, I absolutely, that is right up my alley.
we were saying about how, well, Jay was saying, backstage about how, Her books is a published author of some amazing books, and, you really must go on Amazon and just type j Gerin in and check them out.
(06:02):
building the Bond, the most recent one is an absolute cracker, but her first book about reactivity really, hits home.
But, the other books in between, I'll let Jay tell you about that.
I've gone off down a little rabbit hole.
See, this is my, That's okay.
What we talking about? we just wing it.
We just wing it.
Yes.
So, yes, it was saying about how with her books, she likes to take those, more.
(06:25):
The, the things that maybe might put some readers off because you need to read every sentence five times before a sentence in and I, and takes that information and makes it into plain English.
Really the Yeah, we can understand, and that's what Jay's books do.
They are just.
So easy to read compared to like, oh, I love that books, pen's like complex to read though, don't you agree? Yeah.
(06:50):
even in the beginning of the book it says, this book is aimed at teachers or parents.
you do not have to memorize every single line, but even if you take away one small thing from this book, it can have an effect on how you approach a behavior because of the emotional influence.
the fact with Jay, is one of the things I think, and myself included, always strive for, is to give that information in easy language without overwhelming the person to help them.
(07:17):
So with no further ado, let's introduce Jay and bring Jay on.
Jay actually, began her journey in dog training and behavior as a sheep farmer working with border colleagues.
Whilst her farming days are behind her now, her passion for understanding dogs and supporting their needs remains stronger than ever.
(07:38):
she is herself.
ProMED dog science geek like us.
So Jay fits in, not really well.
Jay combines, hands-on experience with years of study.
to help others build better relations with dogs.
she is an accomplished author and she's also an educator as a tutor for canine principals in the international school for canine psychologies.
(08:05):
her focus is really on empowering others and helping them grow in confidence as well as educating.
she has a particular interest in Posta syndrome, which is rife in the dog world.
and so often we see, People who are very confident, but using outdated methods, having a louder voice than those that are practicing ethically and maybe don't have the confidence because they're struggling with imposter syndrome.
(08:32):
the work that Jay does is really important.
reactivity is her niche and she is here to talk to us about.
All things reactivity.
So Jay, welcome to the podcast.
podcast listening to what you're saying about EP and actually EP in building the bond.
(08:56):
Ah, so I did that? Yeah.
Yeah, there is actually some tanks up in there as much as I could get into plain English.
'cause it's not the easiest.
it's good.
One of our previous podcast guests, Linda Michaels, is also in building the bond with her hierarchy of needs, isn't she? Yep.
Yeah.
Fantastic.
Yeah.
she very kindly allowed me to, use that and expand on it as to how it can work with building that relationship with Job further.
(09:20):
Fantastic.
That is amazing.
So I guess really, 'cause we kind of talked about most other things, we should talk about reactivity because that's what this podcast episode's about.
as we have learned over the weeks of season one, we could talk dog all night.
(09:40):
Reactivity in my mind is very much misunderstood.
it can be a word that is banded about when actually, it doesn't necessarily mean that the dog is aggressive.
It doesn't mean that the dog is broken in some way.
how would you define reactivity in behavioral terms? I have kind of a love hate relationship with the term reactivity.
(10:05):
It's great as a label because people understand it, but what people tend to think of when they think of reactivity is this stereotypical lunging and barking.
And it goes so much deeper than that.
So what I tend to use the word reactive to kind of catch the attention of the people who need to see what I'm talking about.
And then once I've got them.
(10:26):
and I'm able to speak to them, I switch it to sensitive complex.
for me, reactivity, when you define a reaction, it's sort of a response to something generally in the environment, at least in the early stages.
and that can be anything from a slight startle, a look right the way up to those.
Big feeling moments.
(10:46):
you do see the button and the lung, but the thing is that generally comes quite a long way after the whole situation's begun.
So what is really important for me is to help people see those early stages, when the dog is first starting to be worried about something so that we can avoid getting to that point.
Yep.
Because I've been that person on the end of the lead while a dog has been barking and lunging, and it's such a lonely place.
(11:13):
So anything that I can do to help stop those dogs and people from getting there is, really important for me.
that's also the next step because.
With the person that you're trying to help their emotions amplify their behaviors.
They're overwhelmed.
They're embarrassed.
They feel that their dog's behavior is a poor reflection upon them.
So their approach to it is their flight and fight.
(11:36):
So it's impulsive and that's where you get the pulling the yanking, they're trying to stop it immediately, because to them, that's their threat, right? That is their threat from their brain.
And then what happens is the dog is already dealing with their own thing in their own world.
they're responding to what they perceive as threatening.
it's this circle of reactivity that just continues it's understanding first and foremost.
(11:58):
And, when we were already talking.
It's that bond that you have in your book.
Jay, with the bond now that bond isn't just bond relationship.
Great.
We're best friends, but I love my dog already.
The bond also entails safety If the dog does not feel safe with you because of previous negative associations, then you are unsafe and unpredictable.
(12:22):
So the dog already in a distressed state and is not coping, you may unintentionally add more layers to the situation.
So it's that bond first.
with, as you mentioned earlier, Linda, Michael said you could expand on that, which is amazing 'cause that's why we're all here for education.
And it's that creating that safety in the sense of the bond also entails environmental management, proactive approaches to prevent the rehearsal of that unwanted behavior.
(12:49):
Putting that dog in a position to continue to rehearse it and fail.
So much of what you said there really, really strikes home with me.
I have in the last few years undergone quite a difference actually in the way that I work with reactive dogs because I started learning about reactive dogs because I had a reactive dog.
(13:09):
I think, so many of us, we end up finding our nieces because that dog findings us.
And yeah, that dog found me.
He's down here asleep at the moment.
I love the bones of him.
He's not easy.
He never will be, but without him I wouldn't be here.
I started writing about reactivity.
I, started writing because you could find so much content on how to help the dog, but there was nothing to really support the person.
(13:33):
that was the drive of my first book was just as like, reach the people like me, who just, all of us, it seemed like, you know, in hindsight I know it's not how it happened, but all of a sudden everything went horribly wrong.
Yeah, and you know, this is 30 years of working with border colleagues and I've never come across a dog like this.
So, you know, if that can happen to me with all those years, it can happen to a lot of people.
(13:55):
But through working with him and letting him teach me what he needs, because he's an interesting dog.
He works quite differently to how a lot of the time we recommend people work with reactive dogs.
And he is the one who taught me about the importance of that bond.
And he has now moved me away from what I used to do, which was all decentralization, counter conditioning, you know, it was all, the science backed.
(14:23):
I learned with him.
He's actually best off if you let him sit and look and think about things, we always say to people, don't let your dog sit and look at things 'cause they'll fixate.
But for this dog and others like him, that's what.
So yeah, it's finding what he needs and through doing that, it impressed on me that there needs to be this bond, especially with these sensitive dogs, because they need to know that mom or dad has got their back.
(14:51):
they need to know that mom and dad will understand, and if they tell us that they're stressed.
We will do whatever they need, whether that's get them outta the situation.
They can tell us what they need and know that we will take the action that they need.
And when you start doing that, you actually find that they can stretch their boundaries that much more because they know if it gets a bit much, all I've got to do is tell Mum and she'll get me out of it.
(15:15):
Yeah.
there are so many things here that I wanna talk about so emotional safety, not just for the dog, but for the human as well.
the human's lack of emotional safety, their fear reaction before anything happens because they're anticipating something happens.
Yes, it's going to be picked up on, on the dog, and that's gonna have the snowball effect, and that's going to mean that the situation gets.
(15:39):
Exacerbated far more quickly.
A bit like a touch paper going up.
Stripping it back to the emotional safety, making sure that you've got that bond.
Making sure that you are the ally and the teammate with the dog.
You are together as a unit, and the dog can trust you to listen.
When they're saying, no, I don't want to go that way, because they're picking up on something that they're not sure about, you are not going to force.
(16:05):
Them.
You are going to choose to go a different way and they're able to rely on you to listen to their micro communications as well as their bigger, more reactive lunging.
You are looking at things further back and you're picking up on the more subtle behavioral changes.
like just an increase in breath rate.
(16:26):
Yeah, I mean, I watch my dogs just breathing.
They must think I'm a right nut.
but it gives you so much insight and information.
It really does.
But then the sleep, the nutrition, are they in any pain? Because that's gonna build and build on that reactivity.
and making sure that we're, looking for what triggers might have created a pattern in the past, that they're repeating.
(16:55):
when we talk about triggers, Jay, what would you say are the most common triggers? it's most commonly other dogs.
for instance, with my dog, when he was four and a half months old, he was attacked.
that was the end of his journey.
there are so many factors that can go into a dog becoming reactive, and he's kind of all of them.
(17:16):
His mom was nervous.
He was ill during the socialization window, so we couldn't take him out and about because they weren't quite sure what it was.
when he was better, he was just outside the window.
We started trying to get him out and about, and in hindsight, maybe pushed it a little bit further than he was able to cope with, that was the point at which he got attacked.
(17:37):
he got attacked by big, big Brindle, Mastiff, and he started off being afraid of.
Big dark dogs then it was dark dogs, light dogs, all dogs.
And then it was generalization.
People with dogs.
Yeah.
People, yeah, he is dog and people reactive.
those are his triggers.
Triggers can be anything.
(17:58):
I do a lot.
Every dog is individual.
Yep.
And absolutely dog triggers will be individual, and sometimes they won't make sense to the human, and sometimes the human will never even know what triggered it in the first place, and that's okay.
But it's the response that, is communication.
That's what we're, we often you'll find, you know, that people will say, well, you know, it's silly he's not in any danger, but that, that doesn't matter from the dog perspective.
(18:25):
perceived real or imagined.
But it could be, you dunno.
But then kind of learn other triggers as well.
For instance, Finn has a pretty good recourse.
We do have time, so we can have him off lead.
He spends most of his time on a long line if there are other people around.
but he does get off lead time, but if you call him back, suddenly he goes.
(18:47):
What is it? Where is it? What am I supposed to be bothered? So he's actually learned that being called back can mean that we've spotted something before he has.
So we've had to keep calling him back just to try and break that pattern because as soon as you call him back, he's looking for what he's supposed to be bothered about.
Clever dog.
(19:09):
So, and it also depends on the dog's association of the, of the pattern of behavior, right? So if you're always calling ahead of time, like.
The hand in the treat pouch before the trigger comes, then your hand becomes the predictor.
Something scary is coming and the dog's looking for it because they're like, oh, you only do that when something scary is about to happen.
(19:30):
that cue something.
Oh, my hand's going in the treat pouch dog's going, oh no, and then you get there.
But I give my dog treats and it's.
It's breaking it down into those little things.
'cause dog's main form of communication is body language and they're so good at predicting patterns of behavior.
Yeah.
they know the difference between the walking shoes and the going to work shoes and your patterns of behavior because that is a behavioral response.
(19:55):
can we talk about the nervous system a little bit? this might be, your bag because the role of the nervous system.
When reactivity is happening with the four, five Fs now, isn't it? I wonder how many more refs, well, I can think of a few.
Maybe not suitable for the podcast, but do you, do you wanna expand a bit about what's actually going on in the dog's nervous system when that reactivity is building up and happening? Well, in the autonomic system we have our sympathetic and our parasympathetic part, right? And they can fluctuate.
(20:33):
this is all involuntary responses that go with our freeze flight, flight, fidget, and everything.
These come to receptors.
What? The dog hears what the dog sees, also what the dog feels.
So when Jay mentioned earlier, it's from the individual's perspective, real or perceived.
It doesn't matter.
and as an example for listeners, I am not afraid of snakes.
(20:57):
They don't bother me.
I've been exposed to them enough.
That I don't get a startle response from them if I see them.
Okay, I might go, oh, there's a snake.
get the pool net.
But then I can regulate and adapt to the situation relatively quickly.
Now, for a dog.
There's influencing factors of genetics.
(21:18):
Either they're born with a more heightened response where that's sensitivity, right? the critical stages of puppyhood development, either.
Exposure or the lack thereof.
if they've never been exposed to it or if they've been isolated and not exposed during that critical period, when their brain is open-minded to novel and new experiences, it changes how they see things, especially if they've never seen something before.
(21:42):
Now, when we get that reactive response, it's either stems from that startle response, so I see something or I've heard something, and then.
Your amygdala sets off, which is your alarm system, checks in with your hippocampus, which is your, sorry, your hippocampus, which is where your memory, some of the memory log, and that is a very fast, this is not like, Hey, what's going on? Oh, this is what's happening.
(22:07):
It's as fast as switching a light on and that that el, that electrical signal will kind of go from seen it.
Heard it to.
are we in danger? Are we gonna die? Oh, yep, we're gonna die.
Oh yeah, we could die.
And then it travels through your hip axis, which is your hypothalamus and pituitary gland.
And then that sets off your nervous system.
And that is where the dog cannot control if they freeze.
(22:32):
Go into a state of, I can't deal with this, so I'm just gonna close my eyes and avoid it, and everything will be okay.
Like a deer in the lights.
Or it's that I'm gonna get you before you get me to survive, and all the avoidance of the flight.
But the problem lies with the lead is that the lead restricts the dog's ability to engage or disengage from a perceived threat.
So if they can't run away and increase their distance, they're left with what? Look how scary I am, bark, bark, bark.
(22:58):
Stay away from me to deter the threat.
And then what we need to consider from a guardian perspective, and it is horrific.
when you are out and you've got a reactive dog, you are embarrassed, you are frustrated, you are, you want it to stop.
(23:19):
And from a human point of view, knowing all of that stuff's going on inside of the dogs.
Brain and it's outside of the, it's going on.
Knees control isn't something that most of us know.
to understand that and think, okay, my dog isn't deliberately.
(23:40):
Being difficult.
They are having a difficult time themselves, we need to strip this back to how can I help and support them, rather than putting them in a position where they feel that reacting isn't where they're going through all of that.
Stuff in their nervous system.
(24:01):
Mm-hmm.
And they feel they have no option but to react.
Jake, do you still come across a lot of, punishment corrections, dominance myths, that kind of stuff? harsh handling.
Okay.
and what are your thoughts? yeah.
You still see a lot of people going, yeah, they're bad.
aggressive.
(24:24):
It is getting less slowly.
Okay.
but it is slowly from that human perspective, there is that embarrassment.
it's humiliating.
you are out with your dog and dogs are supposed to be easy, Everyone can have a dog.
there's so much more that goes on than is often the common perception Of living with a dog.
Yeah.
(24:46):
I have a love hate relationship with Disney because of what they've told us about dogs.
You know, you can have like four dalmatians and it'll be fine.
there is this perception in media, you know, and not just like facetious ones like that, Lassie renting tin, you know, all of these portrayal of dogs been that, that you know that, that they are easy and.
(25:07):
very clever.
Now we know that dogs are, in fact very clever, but not quite in the way of those portrayals, which yeah, it, it leads us into more complications because you then, as well as the people who say they're being bad and aggressive.
You sometimes get people who say they're doing it deliberately.
And that, you know, they're acting up to get what they want, the dominance thing.
(25:27):
it's trying to get people to understand that, actually this is more like a phobia.
There is no reason in a phobia, if you think about, if you're scared of spiders, if someone puts a spider on your shoulder, you are gonna freak out.
There is no spider.
If your child saw a spider and they screamed, would you smack them because they were being naughty? Yeah, exactly.
(25:47):
You go, oh, there's a spider.
Come darling, move this way.
The spider's more scared of you than you are of them, you know? if you translate that to a dog in an animal sense.
Dog sets off, bark, bark, bark or reacts or responds.
And with talking about what you mentioned earlier with the 1 0 1 dull motions, I absolutely love that, by the way.
I'm gonna use that in future.
Yeah, that's fair.
(26:08):
resource guarding is also a reactivity, right? Because the dog is protecting what they perceive as valuable.
these stems of reactivity, even if it's an involuntary Response and the dog is just reacting to survive because this all stems for survival in our primitive wiring.
And like you, like you said earlier, when we're talking about our sympathetic and parasympathetic part of our nervous system, it's our primitive brain.
(26:29):
It's our primitive wiring, live or die survival of the fittest.
there is no logic, rhyme or reason to it.
It's what the individual perceives as this could cause me to die.
And the brain just goes, you need to survive And the responses follow.
So it's what they learn in that moment with associative learning that takes place.
(26:49):
'cause if I growl and you take your hand away from the shoe, that smells really nice and delicious to chew, that works.
That's how I communicate it to you, that I don't want you coming near my space.
then.
You get that the dog is being dominant, the dog is trying to control you, the dog is trying to show you that they're leader and take control of an object that's yours.
No, the dog is trying to survive.
(27:10):
'cause they perceive that as valuable and you're taking it away from them.
They've learned, they go growling makes you go away.
Okay.
That's how I talk to you.
I will growl.
And the same goes with the reactivity.
Although sometimes that can be a bit more complex because as the human, The human is embarrassed and startled, and they are panicked, so they don't respond appropriately, and it's not intentional.
(27:37):
then what happens is they panic, they hear or see that response and it's just that circle that happens all over again.
But again, when it comes to that reactivity.
That punishment and correction is still in my area.
and especially in South Africa, it's still very prominent where that advice is given.
(27:57):
So when a dog is displaying behavior that could be seen as reactive behavior, if we are.
Not addressing the root cause of why that behavior is happening.
I always strip it back to that emotional safety and whether the dog has the emotional toolkit to feel safe once you've met the basic needs, obviously.
(28:22):
I put emotional safety in there with that.
if we are not addressing those underlying reasons why the dog is displaying that reactivity and its nervous system is taking that course, then all we are doing is suppressing.
That behavior, and we are going to see behavior that is undesired manifesting in other areas as a result, we're also going to be breaching the bond that we've spoken about.
(28:53):
we are going to be damaging its emotional safety rather than making sure that it has those firm foundations to act in a way.
And, stretch itself slightly so that it can become more resilient with time.
we are also putting things on our timeline rather than on the dog's timeline.
(29:14):
one of the things that I see way too often, and I'm sure I've been guilty of it myself, is people moving their dogs to a desired.
Outcome too quickly rather than observing and noting what's going on with the dog's body language and making sure that.
If there is a day where things have gone back a few steps, that's okay.
(29:39):
We move backwards to that emotional safety, those underpinning, areas that make sure that the dog is able to have the full cognitive function it needs to be able to.
Deal with things and, and its nervous system is able to cope well.
How would you recommend that someone, what are the first steps, Jay, for someone who's got a dog with reactive behavior, the first thing for me is teaching people that if your dog is struggling in a situation, the most important thing you can do for your dog and yourself is to get out of that situation.
(30:13):
Dogs cannot learn when they're in that panic state, they are literally in survival mode.
There is no learning that can go on.
So you need to get them away, get 'em somewhere to where they can feel safe and something that surprises a lot of people.
When I say, especially considering the fact that I have border colleagues, don't walk your dog.
(30:34):
If your dog is struggling and going out on the daily walk is causing problems.
Don't walk your dog when we first started working with him, in a month he went out for two walks and he was fine because, we did stuff at home.
You know, we played games.
he had to go at agility, which was fine until he learned that he could jump through the jumps rather than over them.
(30:55):
And then that stopped very quickly.
Bless intelligent colleagues.
we did lots of brain work.
scatter feeding, all of these things that are really nice and calming and just kept me away from the outside world.
when we did walk, we walked at four o'clock in the morning.
Yes.
Yeah, it was absolute pain because it was like October, November, it was wet, it was cold.
(31:16):
It was miserable.
But he was so happy.
Yeah, it was.
Yeah.
But those enrichment activities, yeah, those enrichment activities and that mental stimulation will tie them out.
I'm sure I've said it before on the podcast, but I'm, it, I.
Pretty sure it was Suzanne Clavia years ago, maybe 20 15, 20 16, said that 10 minutes of mental stimulation is worth an hour's physical.
(31:42):
And it does fire them out.
if you are solving the problems with them, you are building that bond with the dog and working with them.
there's one point with Finn where I took him.
Somewhere very quiet, but there was a car park that ran along a footpath where people and dogs had gone past.
we spent 10 minutes and in that 10 minutes we went five yards, literally, no distance at all.
(32:03):
But we got in the car, we came home and my highly energetic border collie was upside down on the sofa for two and a half hours.
Flat out, because he was just so busy processing.
one of my favorite things ever to tell people is the sniff.
Just go out and let Sari decide where they want to go and sniff 10, 15, 20 minutes, but so many sniffing.
(32:25):
So many dogs that come to us, so many fosters that come to us, don't.
Seem to know how to sniff because they've never been allowed to explore with their noses like that.
we have to Scatter food and treats a little bit and encourage them to teach them.
Do it with them at first.
until they get used to doing it for themselves and realize that it's, okay.
They can do that, and it's safe and everything's all right.
(32:47):
So you'd say take them away.
Absolutely.
Show them that you are capable of making that decision to take the flight option to keep both of you safe.
They don't need to protect you.
You are protecting both of you.
Yeah, that's okay.
You are able to do that for them.
Something that a lot of people don't seem to be aware of is trigger stacking.
(33:09):
I wonder if we could pick your brains a little bit about trigger stacking and reactivity.
Jay, I have an example that I use for that, that I have used in my books and my example is you go to the supermarket, right? You go to the supermarket, it's perfect.
you get to the end and someone cuts you off in the line.
(33:29):
they give you this smile.
It's no big deal.
They've just got a few bits and pieces.
It's fine.
Go back to the start of your trip.
Walk out of the front door.
Car's got a flat tire.
You get going.
All the traffic lights are red.
You get to the supermarket, there's no spaces in the car park.
You have to park right over the other side, and the last space is next to somebody who can't park.
(33:51):
So they're hanging over into your space.
You go into the shop, you've got that trolley, the one that will not go where you steer it.
So by the time you've been around the whole shop, your back's getting sore, your neck's getting sore.
You're finally getting to the end.
You're in the queue and this person barges in front of you and gives you this big sm but anybody looking on would say it's come out of nowhere.
(34:16):
Exactly.
people often don't understand trigger stacking and the lower level signs to look for, it looks like it's come out of nowhere, but it has been building And it's so important because the trigger stacking is those little events, It doesn't just happen in one day, that is such a great way to help people learn or understand what the trigger stacking is because it's for the dog's perspective, going out for the walk, you know, sometimes, you're so right.
(34:44):
Stopping just for a bit to give them that cortisol holiday.
the dog needs time to breathe because if you continuously walk, the dog must walk.
We must go for walks every day.
Walk, walk, walk.
The dog is so conflicted when they go out that door.
I.
Of anticipation over arousal or fear and excitement that's already an event on its own.
(35:04):
By the time you've got the harness, that is the trigger for the dog.
We are going out, all these emotions happening.
The door is another event going down the road.
The dog is anticipating.
So we've already got three events or four depending on the dog, Going through, conflicting emotions of I wanna go out, I don't wanna go out, but there could be something, and I know I'm projecting and humanizing, but it's the best way to help somebody understand There's a smell.
(35:30):
Oh no, there's someone there, there's a dog.
oh no.
Now I'm out.
The lead's on, something's gonna happen.
Something's in the distance.
The smell's so good.
that's where you get those dogs who rush past the roses.
But I'm not relaxed enough to stop and sniff and take their time to smell.
Yeah.
And not only are they going through all that emotions, but they've lost their flight option and they can't run away from whatever.
(35:52):
Is spooking them, or whatever the perceived threat that there is, because they're tied to you with the lead and they have no choice because you are in control.
so I'm not saying you should let them off, but just to understand what you can do, when you can understand what is going on.
you've got the idea of what's happening a lot of the time with people, and I used to do this myself.
(36:15):
When you are out with your dog, something might come and you tense up on the lead.
You know how sensitive dogs are.
They're gonna feel that.
and then they're gonna go, oh, mom's not happy.
There's something wrong.
What is it? Where is it? Yeah.
it goes back to that.
trying to get that co-regulation so you can both be calm, I recommend the course a holiday for the people as well, The trigger second here, exactly the same as us.
(36:40):
They also need to breathe.
they need to also know it's okay.
This is not forever.
It's time to adjust.
It's just time to give you both a breather.
I loved what you mentioned earlier when you stopped taking your dog for that walk and you were doing things in between.
and I tried to keep it in the back of my mind so I could say that because you are also then adjusting as you are learning what works and doesn't work for your dog you don't have that, that added pressure of trying to tackle that too.
(37:08):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
So this is like the fastest hour of the week.
This podcast, I, well, it's supposed to be 45 minutes, but 40 to 45 minutes, but we keep running over because we could talk about it all night.
we've actually come to the conclusion it's really an hour and then we start running over that.
We'll be here all night every week.
(37:29):
It'll be amazing.
Can we do it? We can have activity part.
Yay.
That would be my favorite subject.
It's my favorite one.
Oh, I just wanna ask another question before we let Jay go.
Yes.
So many.
I'd say that we're all advocate for dogs.
(37:50):
Like we all, try our hardest to keep on learning and to, show up for our dogs and, protect them in this crazy world that we live in.
How do you advocate for your dog in public when you've got a reactive dog? I found this really, really difficult to start with.
(38:10):
but I have now I've become quite loud and obnoxious.
Did you use one of the Fs, Jay, did you, several of them together on one occasion.
I think I swore 30 seconds without repeating a single word.
Ooh.
And without drawing bread, I had this memory of maybe four or five years ago walking in some woods near us and I could hear a lot of dogs, but I could only hear one human voice.
(38:38):
So automatically I'm thinking, oh, this could be fun.
I stopped and just called, can you call your dog Please? And got Why? Well, 'cause I asked you in my local village, I'm now known as that one.
(38:58):
I got over the embarrassment of that very quickly.
Is that why you're moving? Yeah.
that's why I'm moving three hours away because everyone knows me around here now.
But it's really difficult at first because, you know, human nature, we don't like to stand out, we don't like to draw attention to ourselves a lot of the time.
I'm quite an introverted person naturally, until you do anything that threatens the happiness of my dogs.
(39:23):
one of my friends called me Mama Bear, and it comes out for my dogs.
you do not do anything to my dogs.
You do not say anything derogatory about my dogs, and you certainly do not threaten my dogs.
It gets easy with practice Rehearsal of behavior gets stronger over time.
My other job, you know, I've worked really, really hard to have her not have the same issues as him.
(39:44):
a couple of months back I had her out for a walk and we walked through a gap from one field into another, and there was a dog walker.
She got four or five dogs, I think, and she walked through the gap into the next field and one of the dogs turned around and just absolutely.
Like, you know, towards us, like an arrow.
So, and she's walking away and she's going, Angus, Angus, Angus the dog's name was Angus.
(40:06):
Angus doesn't appear to know that his name was Angus 'cause he was barking, he was growling and I just got her behind me and just stood in between and, you know, big as I could.
in the end, what I ended up doing, I grabbed a handful of treats at my treat pouch.
And just love them at 45 degrees.
Yeah.
For him to go.
So we could beat a hasty retreat.
(40:27):
the dog walk was in the next field.
She, paid no attention whatsoever.
I ducked through the hedge and we carried on.
He's friendly.
He'll be fine.
My two least favorite words when put together, I got the He's friendly.
Yeah, but I'm not.
(40:49):
So let's do it.
That's amazing.
Oh, Jay, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.
where can people find your books? Can you list them all and tell us? We're not gonna let you go part two.
That's fine.
I'm up for a part two if you want part.
Yeah.
Oh, let us know the comments if you want a part two if you're watching this, please.
(41:12):
The first one I wrote was called Fight or Flight, a Reactive Dog Guardian's Handbook.
and that is very much the one that was written to support people and help them see.
where they could find help.
I have a book on imposter syndrome, which I know Joe mentioned earlier for dog people.
I have a, a Facebook group for imposter syndrome for dog people that should be part of our part too.
(41:37):
'cause that's so important for people who work in this industry.
I, we differ.
That would be amazing.
My other pet love, my other pet and actually imposter syndrome and people who have reacted dogs can go quite well together.
So can I.
Emma, Emma and I brainstormed the subject for the podcast.
Have I preempted? We're in like 20, 28.
(42:00):
Yeah.
And she's like, yeah, let's do one on imposter syndrome.
I do genuinely think that, if we could help more people Manage their imposter syndrome effectively in the ethical dog space, that is going to unlock a massive tidal wave of, because its their confidence, helps them feel safe.
(42:23):
And no learning can take place when one is stressed.
because it inhibits learning, so we are just gonna clone Jay.
I think Jay and I are gonna be besties.
Yay.
I love your stuff as well.
I'm definitely up for that.
Has has had the biggest impact so far.
(42:44):
Be understanding reactive dogs.
that let me get my inner geek out because that goes into the whole, the nervous system, the hormones, the stress response.
Very much fun.
I just got my inner nerd out in that book.
It was great.
it's on Audible as well.
read by a fantastic, fantastic narrator.
And then the last one that has, has been released was building the Bond, which.
(43:05):
Yeah, it's not reactive specific, but everything in there applies the stronger the relationship you can have with your dog, the more you can help them when they are struggling.
little sneak peek of what's coming up.
There is another reactive dog book in the works, and this one is called Supporting a Reactive Dog.
So, kind of goes with that change in, in how I work with, with people and their dogs now to actually, rather than concentrating on counter conditioning desensitization, on actually using that bonding relationship and.
(43:33):
You know, teaching your dog that they can depend on you, that you've got their back.
ultimately people get or should get a dog.
Well, everyone should get a dog that is, is nice person.
But people.
people who have a dog and are struggling with reactivity, genuinely love their dogs and genuinely want.
(43:58):
To have that bond with their dogs.
That is fun, that is loving, that is a, a sort of, family member rather than someone they're struggling to bond with and that they're feeling, feeling feelings towards, that maybe are of frustration and anger and, that, that that's not what they want.
(44:19):
to have a book that supports.
The guardian and the dog as a team a family unit, is fantastic.
what I will say to people sometimes is, the relationship you have with these dogs, may not be what you expected.
for instance, with Finn, his world is a lot smaller than the average dog, But he loves his world.
He enjoys his world.
(44:40):
his life is not unfulfilled.
He's safe.
And to be honest, my life is fulfilled.
Seeing him feeling safe.
It's adjusting those expectations.
if you've enjoyed this week's podcast with the fabulous Jay Gordon, thank you so much for jumping on Jay.
then please do subscribe to our YouTube channel.
(45:01):
Give us a like and a share on Facebook, over on the canine principles.
Page and on Instagram, share us wherever you share things tell all your doggy friends, because we are on a mission to make.
owning a dog.
Being a dog guardian, a harmonious two-way street where the dog's emotional safety is paramount.
(45:25):
their physical safety is paramount too, but their emotional safety goes unrecognized and, we need to make sure that we are, shouting about how important that is.
next week, we have resource guarding as our final episode for season one, It's one of my favorites too.
(45:51):
we will see you next episode for resource guarding I hope you have a wonderful week.
Take care.
Bye bye everyone.
Thank you for listening to the Dog Expert Podcast, the podcast dogs would want you to listen to.
If you've enjoyed this episode, let us know in our free Facebook group for dog lovers Everywhere Ethical Dog Training with Canine principles.
(46:16):
we can make more content like this that you'll love.
We would love for you to leave a review on here and hit subscribe so you never miss an episode.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.