DRUMBEAT EPISODE #1 | How Did We Get Here?

We are excited to launch The Drumbeat with Josie & Pete!

Welcome to Episode One where we start with the question: 

HOW DID WE GET HERE?

Josie and Pete's friendship goes all the way back to kindergarten in 1979. But after graduating high school in 1992, their paths diverged dramatically. Pete became involved in crime, while Josie prepared for college. By the summer of '94, a staggering 7% of their classmates were dead or incarcerated, leaving a scar on their entire community.

That June, Pete was arrested after an armed robbery and shootout. He spent years in prison, including a decade in solitary confinement following a failed escape attempt. His journey towards freedom wouldn't be complete until 2008.

During those 14 years, Josie built a life for herself. She graduated from the University of Michigan, pursued comedy in Chicago, and even wrote a sitcom.  After her father's sudden passing, she moved back home to support her mother. Eventually, she returned to Ann Arbor, started a business, and met the love of her life.

Through it all, Josie and Pete stayed connected through letters.  When Pete got out in 2008, they reconnected in person and have experienced the last 16 years together supporting each other, giving each other a lot of shit, and laughing through it all. 

Our first episode answers the questions:  How we got here, where we are going, and how. you can help.

We invite you to join on us this journey.....Let's Get Drumming!

 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to The Drum Beat with Josie and Pete.
Today's question is.
How did we get. 4 00:00:12,824.313 --> 00:00:16,4.313 Join us as we talk about policy, not politics. 5 00:00:16,544.313 --> 00:00:19,574.313 The drum beat podcast is your source for a nonpartisan approach. 6 00:00:19,604.313 --> 00:00:25,4.313 Uh, discussing serious topics with serious people all while mixing in lots of humor, some wit. 7 00:00:25,394.313 --> 00:00:27,374.313 And a slight chance of sarcasm. 8 00:00:27,884.313 --> 00:00:35,174.313 Every episode, we'll be kicking things off with a question and we'll be exploring how Michigan policy decisions impact you and your community. 9 00:00:36,874.313 --> 00:00:37,474.313 No. 10 00:00:37,804.313 --> 00:00:38,644.313 Let's get drumming. 11 00:00:41,914.313 --> 00:00:44,494.313 hi, my name is Josie Anne Lee. 12 00:00:44,874.313 --> 00:00:49,124.313 And I'm Pete Martell And we are happy to have you join us for episode one. 13 00:00:49,409.313 --> 00:00:56,689.313 Today we are discussing how did we get here? Pete and I are going to spend a little time telling you our journey to lead us to this podcast. 14 00:00:56,979.313 --> 00:01:03,229.313 We're going to share with you where we want this podcast to go, and we're going to give you a few ways that you can help us make it successful too. 15 00:01:03,229.313 --> 00:01:06,579.313 So Pete, I'm really excited to be doing this podcast with you. 16 00:01:06,719.313 --> 00:01:08,199.313 I'm excited to be doing it as well. 17 00:01:08,289.312 --> 00:01:10,879.313 I feel like it's a long time coming and here we are. 18 00:01:10,979.313 --> 00:01:11,759.313 Here we are. 19 00:01:11,789.313 --> 00:01:17,759.313 Let's tell a little bit about how we know each other, where we come from, how we think that might've shaped who we are. 20 00:01:17,759.313 --> 00:01:20,189.313 Well, um, born and raised in Michigan, both of us. 21 00:01:20,509.312 --> 00:01:22,809.311 and we met when we were in Dryden, this little village. 22 00:01:22,869.312 --> 00:01:27,639.312 And if you saw our social media, if you're following us on Instagram,, you see that it's a very small town. 23 00:01:28,49.312 --> 00:01:29,559.312 We were a class D high school. 24 00:01:29,649.312 --> 00:01:32,269.312 This is a village where friendliness is served country style. 25 00:01:32,709.312 --> 00:01:33,699.312 Yeah, country style. 26 00:01:33,749.312 --> 00:01:35,849.312 We had 44 people when we graduated. 27 00:01:35,849.312 --> 00:01:40,879.312 I think we probably graduated with, I don't know, 75 80 percent of the people we started kindergarten with. 28 00:01:40,939.312 --> 00:01:44,9.311 I remember we shared a lot of the same teachers, I think. 29 00:01:44,9.311 --> 00:01:50,889.311 And I can remember you being in a, in the Mickey Mouse Reading Club, which was the high level reading class in second grade with ms. 30 00:01:50,919.311 --> 00:01:51,269.311 Talmadge. 31 00:01:51,339.311 --> 00:01:58,869.311 But as we got older, um, we kind of just got into different tracks in school. 32 00:01:59,279.311 --> 00:02:00,339.2605 That's one way of putting it. 33 00:02:00,339.2605 --> 00:02:00,819.311 It was. 34 00:02:00,899.31 --> 00:02:01,879.311 You were in school. 35 00:02:01,879.311 --> 00:02:02,429.311 I was not. 36 00:02:03,269.31 --> 00:02:03,899.311 There's another way. 37 00:02:03,959.31 --> 00:02:05,139.31 We got on different tracks. 38 00:02:05,159.311 --> 00:02:06,299.31 We got on very different tracks. 39 00:02:07,69.311 --> 00:02:23,29.312 And Pete and I were talking about this a couple weeks ago and I said to him, I think he's probably one of the smartest people that I graduated with, but I feel like school let him down because, they just started to group us early on where the kids that were doing the work got separated out from the rest of the class. 40 00:02:23,39.312 --> 00:02:29,849.312 So there were times when we were in high school that I had classes with six people, By the time we got to high school, I just kind of opted out. 41 00:02:30,319.312 --> 00:02:33,269.312 As soon as I could drive, I just didn't bother to go to first, second, and third hour. 42 00:02:33,309.312 --> 00:02:33,519.312 Yeah. 43 00:02:33,519.312 --> 00:02:36,539.312 I'd get up, I'd drive in for lunch, and then I would drive to Votac. 44 00:02:36,539.312 --> 00:02:37,389.312 I graduated with a 1. 45 00:02:37,389.312 --> 00:02:42,829.312 05 GPA and I was welding, working ridiculous hours, welding on third shift. 46 00:02:42,849.312 --> 00:02:49,49.312 And I was in the band and realized like, wow, I've, um, I've undermined myself enough at this point. 47 00:02:49,279.312 --> 00:02:50,369.312 I can't go to college. 48 00:02:50,819.312 --> 00:02:54,469.312 Because all the stuff I was supposed to learn in high school, I wasn't there to learn it. 49 00:02:54,929.312 --> 00:02:55,779.312 And I'm not going to go back. 50 00:02:55,779.312 --> 00:02:56,449.312 I hated high school. 51 00:02:56,449.312 --> 00:02:59,509.312 I'm not going to go back and redo high school to bring myself up to speed. 52 00:02:59,559.312 --> 00:03:20,459.4125 Was there any part of you that was, like, worried about the future? Were you thinking about the future at all, or were you just day by day? Very much day by day, right? But, thinking about the future, like what am I going to do for the rest of my life? Those thoughts would occur and I would probably get them out of my head as fast as I could because it often led to, Oh, I should go to college because I'd like to do this thing. 53 00:03:20,929.4125 --> 00:03:21,879.4125 I can't go to college. 54 00:03:22,659.4125 --> 00:03:24,809.4125 So then I was kind of like at this fork in the road. 55 00:03:24,839.4125 --> 00:03:27,529.4115 Do I want to stay welding? Which wasn't really an option. 56 00:03:27,779.4115 --> 00:03:29,669.4125 I didn't think I would spend the rest of my life welding. 57 00:03:30,99.4125 --> 00:03:33,939.4125 Um, I had no problem with it, but I just didn't feel like that's what I was going to do for the rest of my life. 58 00:03:34,339.4125 --> 00:03:38,169.4125 Um, I knew I wasn't going to, uh, make it as a running back in the NFL. 59 00:03:38,449.4125 --> 00:03:40,889.4125 I didn't think I was going to make it as a drummer. 60 00:03:41,719.4125 --> 00:03:42,759.4125 Jury's still out on that one. 61 00:03:43,429.4125 --> 00:03:54,869.4125 Um, and I knew like with Dan and some others, like we got into crime and we were, we felt like we were fairly good at it and I thought that's like, okay, that's what I'm going to do. 62 00:03:55,469.4125 --> 00:03:55,809.4125 Yeah. 63 00:03:55,819.4125 --> 00:03:56,629.4115 So that's interesting. 64 00:03:56,629.4125 --> 00:04:02,769.4125 I decided in fifth grade that I wanted to go to U of M and that was really my entire goal from the time I was in. 65 00:04:03,189.4125 --> 00:04:04,229.4125 Well, from the time I met Mr. 66 00:04:04,229.5125 --> 00:04:06,589.4125 Borden, he would always talk about Michigan football. 67 00:04:06,589.4125 --> 00:04:07,959.4125 Do you remember that? Oh, yes. 68 00:04:08,39.4125 --> 00:04:08,759.4125 Oh, I do remember. 69 00:04:08,769.4125 --> 00:04:14,99.4125 Yeah, and so I just had this one track mind that I was going to go to U of M. 70 00:04:14,119.4125 --> 00:04:19,819.4125 I applied the summer of, uh, senior year and I found out I was accepted early in October. 71 00:04:19,819.4125 --> 00:04:21,289.4125 So I was always thinking about the future. 72 00:04:21,289.4125 --> 00:04:24,359.4125 I was thinking what I want to do and oddly enough back in the day I wanted to be a lawyer. 73 00:04:24,854.4125 --> 00:04:35,614.4125 That was the plan and, and I thought I'll go to U of M, I'll go to U of M law school and like, you know, when you're 17, your big dreams were, I was going to be a Supreme Court Justice. 74 00:04:35,664.4125 --> 00:04:35,934.4125 Oh. 75 00:04:36,154.4125 --> 00:04:37,694.4125 That was the, the plan. 76 00:04:37,704.4125 --> 00:04:39,334.4125 Yeah, U of M was always my focus. 77 00:04:39,764.4125 --> 00:04:40,914.4125 Um, so it's interesting. 78 00:04:40,914.4125 --> 00:04:43,804.4125 So, if you think of us, we were our best friends when we were young. 79 00:04:44,154.4125 --> 00:04:53,94.4115 I have so many memories of you as a child, like doing things and yeah, and um, I was the drummer in the band, which I also, it's not my career. 80 00:04:53,494.4125 --> 00:04:57,834.4115 Um, but yeah, as we got older in school, we just kind of drifted apart. 81 00:04:58,204.4115 --> 00:04:59,484.4125 I'm still friends. 82 00:04:59,484.4125 --> 00:05:00,774.4125 I would have done anything for you. 83 00:05:01,214.4125 --> 00:05:03,324.4125 I was just thinking that, like we were best friends. 84 00:05:05,299.4125 --> 00:05:06,859.4125 And we never had like a falling out. 85 00:05:06,919.4125 --> 00:05:07,239.4125 No. 86 00:05:07,289.4125 --> 00:05:10,99.4125 We just gradually, slowly drifted apart. 87 00:05:10,269.4125 --> 00:05:13,569.4125 But whenever we'd come back together, we were always, it was always still us. 88 00:05:13,579.4125 --> 00:05:13,869.4125 Yeah. 89 00:05:13,869.4125 --> 00:05:15,779.4115 And it was always a pleasure and fun. 90 00:05:15,779.4125 --> 00:05:16,229.4125 Yeah. 91 00:05:16,339.4115 --> 00:05:16,919.4115 And yeah. 92 00:05:17,19.4125 --> 00:05:18,749.4125 But everything kind of changed. 93 00:05:18,779.4125 --> 00:05:21,149.4125 Uh, we graduated in 92, summer of 92. 94 00:05:21,599.4125 --> 00:05:24,339.4125 Um, I went off to U of M. 95 00:05:24,709.4125 --> 00:05:26,939.4125 U kind of started criming. 96 00:05:27,779.4125 --> 00:05:35,609.4125 And, um, if you want to talk a little bit about that, and then I kind of want to talk about the summer of 94 and how that really just solidified both of our lives. 97 00:05:35,899.4125 --> 00:05:39,409.4125 So, yeah, with the criming, I like this, uh, that's a good term. 98 00:05:39,919.4125 --> 00:05:40,919.4125 Josie coined this term. 99 00:05:40,919.5125 --> 00:05:50,379.4115 Um, so, it also, like, the criming kind of got, I got more and more involved with, there was a small group of us that started with, like, stealing hood ornaments. 100 00:05:50,709.4125 --> 00:05:54,829.4125 Back when we were in high school at football games, remember? And then it was like radar detectors and car stereos, whatever. 101 00:05:55,99.4125 --> 00:05:55,979.4125 Stealing things. 102 00:05:56,454.4125 --> 00:05:57,184.4125 In this group. 103 00:05:57,184.4125 --> 00:05:58,614.4125 And I think a lot of it was just peer pressure. 104 00:05:58,624.4125 --> 00:06:02,414.4125 One of us trying to one up the next one and impress the other ones about, like, Oh, look what I'll do. 105 00:06:02,604.4125 --> 00:06:03,484.4125 Oh no, look what I'll do. 106 00:06:03,564.4125 --> 00:06:05,784.4115 And, you know, we had this sort of like competitive thing. 107 00:06:05,854.4125 --> 00:06:09,654.4125 We were doing the same thing, but it was like, look at what school I'm going to get into. 108 00:06:09,664.4115 --> 00:06:10,104.4115 Yeah. 109 00:06:10,134.4125 --> 00:06:10,314.4125 Yeah. 110 00:06:10,314.4125 --> 00:06:10,564.4125 Yeah. 111 00:06:11,184.4125 --> 00:06:11,764.4125 No, I'm kidding. 112 00:06:11,764.4125 --> 00:06:12,364.4115 We didn't do that. 113 00:06:12,364.4115 --> 00:06:13,224.4115 We weren't that dorky. 114 00:06:13,344.4135 --> 00:06:13,584.4135 Okay. 115 00:06:13,644.4125 --> 00:06:14,974.4125 You guys were totally like that. 116 00:06:15,4.4125 --> 00:06:15,564.4115 I remember that. 117 00:06:16,4.4115 --> 00:06:17,14.4115 Um, no, no. 118 00:06:17,14.4115 --> 00:06:25,424.4125 So this, uh, this grew and grew and grew and it eventually led to kind of, uh, uh, getting me away from the band that I was in. 119 00:06:25,864.4125 --> 00:06:32,584.4125 The band who's like the long hair and the leather jackets and all of this and the partying and all of that like Tony LeBrie was an excellent influence. 120 00:06:32,624.4125 --> 00:06:35,534.4125 He was a great friend and always supportive and always Mr. 121 00:06:35,534.4125 --> 00:06:36,134.4125 Clean too. 122 00:06:36,634.4125 --> 00:06:40,844.4125 They were always trying to like get me away from that and like Peter, what are you doing? Blah, blah, blah. 123 00:06:40,844.4125 --> 00:06:43,89.4125 Lots of good influences in the band. 124 00:06:43,289.4125 --> 00:06:47,89.4125 And eventually I got away from the band because I wanted to get more and more into crime. 125 00:06:47,199.4115 --> 00:06:50,309.4115 Why would you leave this band? Cause I know you love music. 126 00:06:50,309.4115 --> 00:07:01,519.4135 Like what you just, did you like crime that much more? Like what was appealing to you to make that big of a decision? I think it probably came down to just like the number of hours that I had available. 127 00:07:01,689.4125 --> 00:07:10,79.4115 And once I got into the welding job, when I say we were working crazy hours, it was, we were working 12 hour days, Monday through Friday, and then 10 hours on Saturday and Sunday. 128 00:07:10,409.4125 --> 00:07:14,379.4125 So there were times where I was over 110 hours in a week all of a sudden I was making pretty good money. 129 00:07:14,539.4125 --> 00:07:18,369.4135 And I remember I was doing this job, when Dan died in a car accident. 130 00:07:18,369.5135 --> 00:07:20,329.4125 And I left that job from that. 131 00:07:20,429.4125 --> 00:07:22,599.4125 And that's when everything just spiraled down pretty quickly. 132 00:07:23,559.4135 --> 00:07:25,839.4135 So, yeah, so that's the summer of 94. 133 00:07:25,899.4135 --> 00:07:29,709.4135 Um, it just sticks in my mind cause we were still very young. 134 00:07:30,149.4125 --> 00:07:31,989.4135 Um, and. 135 00:07:32,594.4135 --> 00:07:38,924.4135 We lost Dan, who's Pete's best friend, in a car accident, and I think that just changes your life perspective. 136 00:07:38,934.4135 --> 00:07:45,174.4125 You, you realize that, oh my god, we're gonna die, right? It's always older people are dying. 137 00:07:45,184.4135 --> 00:07:46,734.4125 We were losing grandparents at this point. 138 00:07:47,4.4125 --> 00:07:51,224.4135 I don't think anybody in our class had lost a parent or a sibling. 139 00:07:51,414.4135 --> 00:07:56,134.4135 I could be wrong, but I know when we graduated, I think everybody's parents were still married. 140 00:07:56,409.4135 --> 00:07:59,79.4135 Right? Like it was an odd little bubble of the world. 141 00:07:59,99.4135 --> 00:07:59,459.4135 Yeah. 142 00:07:59,659.4135 --> 00:08:00,719.4135 There was no divorce. 143 00:08:00,719.4135 --> 00:08:02,809.4135 There, you didn't hear of anything bad happening. 144 00:08:02,809.4135 --> 00:08:06,239.4125 And as I look back on it, I think, that's not normal. 145 00:08:06,609.4135 --> 00:08:08,689.4135 Right? I never even thought about that. 146 00:08:08,789.4135 --> 00:08:13,229.3135 I never really thought about, you know, How how solidified things were and remained that throughout. 147 00:08:13,239.3135 --> 00:08:13,589.3135 Yeah. 148 00:08:14,349.3135 --> 00:08:16,309.3135 Um, so Dan died 94. 149 00:08:16,589.3135 --> 00:08:23,139.3135 And then I remember that summer, there were a few parties where everybody would get together, right? Because we're young and we're trying to mourn. 150 00:08:23,539.3135 --> 00:08:26,799.3135 And I remember this one party and it sticks with me. 151 00:08:26,799.3135 --> 00:08:28,369.3135 I think it was at Cubs house. 152 00:08:28,649.3135 --> 00:08:36,964.3135 And we were all just trying to like, I don't know, be 19 and grieving and, and coming home from colleges and seeing friends. 153 00:08:36,964.3135 --> 00:08:43,674.3125 And you were there and you were telling, I don't even know if we were like, what the hell is going on with you? Right. 154 00:08:43,674.3135 --> 00:08:45,84.3125 We were just kind of worried about you. 155 00:08:45,444.3125 --> 00:08:52,314.3135 Um, you were telling the story about how you had got caught robbing someone's house. 156 00:08:52,504.3135 --> 00:08:54,314.3135 Let's see how close I remember this. 157 00:08:54,314.3135 --> 00:09:00,64.3135 Cause we haven't talked about this and you were in my memory, you were in court or something. 158 00:09:00,74.3135 --> 00:09:01,284.3135 And the woman was saying. 159 00:09:01,609.3135 --> 00:09:07,729.3135 He stole a hundred dollars from me or something and you were like, bitch, I stole 40 and it's in my back pocket. 160 00:09:07,799.3135 --> 00:09:15,9.3135 Does that ring a bell to you at all? I, um, I try not to use the B word, so I can't imagine that that actually, no. 161 00:09:15,399.3135 --> 00:09:19,669.3135 Um, yes, you're not far off, you're, you're not far off. 162 00:09:19,719.3135 --> 00:09:24,69.3135 And I don't remember exactly what it was, but I remember somebody saying like, Oh, they stole this and this and this. 163 00:09:24,69.3135 --> 00:09:25,299.3135 And I was like, no, we did not. 164 00:09:25,329.3125 --> 00:09:25,699.3125 Yeah. 165 00:09:25,749.3125 --> 00:09:27,869.313 In fact, we were only in the garage. 166 00:09:27,869.313 --> 00:09:28,769.3125 We never went into the house. 167 00:09:28,779.3135 --> 00:09:29,839.3135 Yeah, it was something. 168 00:09:29,839.3135 --> 00:09:33,39.3125 So in the time, right, we're all laughing and like, Oh, there's Pete. 169 00:09:33,39.3135 --> 00:09:56,219.3135 And I'm sure we were drinking and, um, And then a few weeks later, you, you know, you get caught, armed robbery and shooting at cops and, and that was the memory that I had to work through for a long time that we were all laughing and thinking it was funny while you were basically telling us, like, I'm imploding and I'm making these really bad life choices. 170 00:09:56,239.3135 --> 00:10:00,399.3135 And like your peers were just like, great story. 171 00:10:00,649.3135 --> 00:10:01,959.3135 That's really interesting to me. 172 00:10:02,239.3135 --> 00:10:09,539.3135 I've never thought about it from that perspective, right? But I think it's totally normal for kids that age to hear that and laugh about it. 173 00:10:09,579.3125 --> 00:10:14,689.3125 And like, that's, that's what's wrong with the legal system and the brain development. 174 00:10:14,699.3125 --> 00:10:18,769.3135 When we were in seventh grade, we had a new classmate, Brian. 175 00:10:19,594.3135 --> 00:10:20,684.3135 He was a hockey player. 176 00:10:21,194.3135 --> 00:10:22,424.3135 There was a party at Brian's house. 177 00:10:22,904.3135 --> 00:10:24,994.3135 And everybody was drinking and I didn't drink. 178 00:10:25,4.3135 --> 00:10:26,804.3135 I probably wasn't even drinking at Cub's house that night. 179 00:10:27,74.3135 --> 00:10:29,274.3135 And, uh, I told my mom. 180 00:10:29,404.3135 --> 00:10:32,374.3135 I said, hey mom, just so you know, everybody is at that party drinking. 181 00:10:32,374.3135 --> 00:10:35,534.3135 So my mom comes to the party and she does the big mom speech. 182 00:10:35,534.3135 --> 00:10:36,734.3135 We care about you guys. 183 00:10:37,124.3135 --> 00:10:39,764.3135 And like for years, I got what's called NARC. 184 00:10:40,184.3135 --> 00:10:40,864.3135 I was the nart. 185 00:10:41,684.3135 --> 00:10:45,854.3135 And, and I was like, I was still, I am who I am now. 186 00:10:45,854.4135 --> 00:10:48,614.3135 The same person I was when I was in 7th grade, like just confident. 187 00:10:48,614.3135 --> 00:10:49,684.3135 Like, it didn't bother me. 188 00:10:50,14.3135 --> 00:10:55,814.3135 But, I, so yes, I think people at that age, we do think it's funny. 189 00:10:56,84.3135 --> 00:10:59,584.3135 But like, I think personally, I was just like, I feel like I could have reached out more. 190 00:10:59,584.3135 --> 00:11:02,134.3135 Like even the rest of the class is doing like the peer pressure thing. 191 00:11:02,134.3135 --> 00:11:05,524.3135 Like the we're young and drinking and we're listening to a funny story about Pete. 192 00:11:05,864.3135 --> 00:11:13,544.3125 I felt like, fuck, like I know better than this, right? Like I know that he shouldn't be, this isn't funny. 193 00:11:13,554.3135 --> 00:11:16,84.3135 Like someone needs to just say to him, Hey, listen, fucker. 194 00:11:16,124.3135 --> 00:11:19,44.3135 Like you're going to die if you stay on this trajectory. 195 00:11:19,224.3135 --> 00:11:19,794.3135 It's not cool. 196 00:11:19,814.3135 --> 00:11:20,404.3135 It's not funny. 197 00:11:20,664.3135 --> 00:11:21,24.3135 Stop it. 198 00:11:21,24.3135 --> 00:11:21,294.3135 Yeah. 199 00:11:21,314.3135 --> 00:11:21,704.3135 Yeah. 200 00:11:21,944.3135 --> 00:11:28,929.3135 And I wasn't strong enough as a, Uh, developed adult or whatever, or a human being to, to do that. 201 00:11:28,929.3135 --> 00:11:30,599.3135 And so I, personally, I had to work through that. 202 00:11:30,599.3135 --> 00:11:32,529.3135 I think nobody else probably even thought anything of it. 203 00:11:32,589.3135 --> 00:11:33,179.3135 That's right. 204 00:11:33,369.3135 --> 00:11:41,759.3125 Also, so you know, for your own sake of sanity, for your own peace of mind, had you said something, my whole life trajectory would have been different. 205 00:11:42,749.3135 --> 00:11:43,719.3135 I would have stopped. 206 00:11:46,349.3135 --> 00:11:47,869.3135 But then you wouldn't be where you are now. 207 00:11:47,869.3135 --> 00:11:49,109.3135 So I, you know, going back. 208 00:11:49,109.3135 --> 00:11:49,799.3135 Silver Silver linings. 209 00:11:49,799.3135 --> 00:11:50,259.3135 Fuck it. 210 00:11:50,259.3135 --> 00:11:51,9.3135 No one died. 211 00:11:51,424.3135 --> 00:11:55,194.3135 And I mean, well, yeah, well, so here we are. 212 00:11:55,224.3135 --> 00:11:55,684.3135 Yes. 213 00:11:56,424.3135 --> 00:12:01,394.3135 Um, so yeah, uh, I ended up with armed robbery and I go to prison for it. 214 00:12:01,464.3135 --> 00:12:02,544.3135 I went to prison. 215 00:12:02,764.3135 --> 00:12:04,884.3135 Let's see, I was locked up in the summer of 94. 216 00:12:05,74.3135 --> 00:12:08,174.3135 It was like right around the same day of the whole OJ Simpson thing. 217 00:12:08,624.3125 --> 00:12:22,24.3135 Um, I was in the County jail for a while, ended up, uh, taking a plea agreement, went off to prison, didn't like prison, tried to escape from prison, added more time onto my sentence, spent 10 years in solitary confinement over it. 218 00:12:22,454.3135 --> 00:12:27,824.3135 And, um, once I hit solitary confinement, I knew I was going to get out because I didn't have a life sentence. 219 00:12:28,234.3135 --> 00:12:35,414.3135 Um, and I felt like now's the time to start doing the reading that I was supposed to have done in high school. 220 00:12:36,14.3125 --> 00:12:52,624.3135 So I went from there and I was, I was in solitary confinement from 1995 through 2005 and, uh, was released from the hole in 2005 and then worked my way down in security levels to eventually, um, getting low enough where I could get into the programming that I needed to. 221 00:12:55,584.3135 --> 00:13:00,374.3135 So I just want to pause for a second and say that because you, you say that from you've been out for 16 years now. 222 00:13:00,874.3135 --> 00:13:07,374.3125 Um, you're fairly healthy, right? Like mentally, you know, you see, you put, you come across like you're normal. 223 00:13:07,474.3135 --> 00:13:07,684.3135 Yeah. 224 00:13:08,4.3135 --> 00:13:11,14.3135 And so people listening to this, you skip over. 225 00:13:11,554.3135 --> 00:13:13,974.3135 You know 14 years in prison 10 years in the hole. 226 00:13:14,284.3135 --> 00:13:25,64.3135 Um, and there's probably a lot of people like thinking He couldn't have said he spent 10 years in the hole, right? Is that even a thing? So I just wanted to know that we're going to come back and dig into this more in future Also, he's an ex con. 227 00:13:25,154.3135 --> 00:13:37,574.3135 Can we believe a word? He says Fucker That's undermined the whole future of the podcast But yeah, so we're going to come back in future episodes and we're going to talk a little bit more about prison. 228 00:13:37,574.3135 --> 00:13:39,614.314 We'll talk about what we want this podcast to be. 229 00:13:39,614.314 --> 00:13:48,24.3145 It's not going to be all about criminal justice, but obviously Pete's experience lends us to a lot of interesting conversations about the criminal justice system and things that we can do. 230 00:13:48,24.3145 --> 00:13:55,4.3145 So, um, I think that's just worth noting here that there will be a lot of opportunity for us to dig into that experience you had. 231 00:13:55,384.3145 --> 00:14:04,154.3145 Um, during prison, um, but when you got out in 2008, I had graduated from U of M in 96, um, had gone to Chicago. 232 00:14:04,394.3145 --> 00:14:10,794.3135 I wanted to learn improv,, so I, I moved to Chicago and, uh, really created this wonderful life. 233 00:14:11,4.3135 --> 00:14:12,284.313 I would say it's my dream life. 234 00:14:12,284.313 --> 00:14:18,534.3135 I got a good job, I was making good money, I was doing, um, improv, I had written a sitcom with a friend of mine. 235 00:14:18,844.3135 --> 00:14:20,344.3125 Yeah, everything was just going really well. 236 00:14:20,354.3135 --> 00:14:24,984.3135 I bought a dream condo and then my father passed away suddenly in November of 2004. 237 00:14:25,304.3135 --> 00:14:31,864.3135 So I just left everything in Chicago, sold my condo and moved home to help my mom. 238 00:14:32,274.3135 --> 00:14:35,504.3135 Run our country store that I was raised at. 239 00:14:35,814.3135 --> 00:14:37,494.3135 Um, it was on the same property as our house. 240 00:14:37,544.3135 --> 00:14:42,764.3125 When you say country store, were you guys selling gravy or guns? Dependent on the day. 241 00:14:42,794.3135 --> 00:14:45,514.3135 It was Hickory Market and there were video games there. 242 00:14:45,514.3135 --> 00:14:45,854.3135 Yeah. 243 00:14:45,894.3125 --> 00:14:51,364.3135 And we used to love, I used, when I would stay at Dan's house, we'd drive the four wheeler down there and we'd play video games and hang out with you and your dad. 244 00:14:51,384.3135 --> 00:14:51,824.3135 Yeah. 245 00:14:52,304.3135 --> 00:14:53,844.3635 Yeah, it was a great little market. 246 00:14:53,844.3635 --> 00:15:00,164.3135 It was a good, it was a great childhood, right? Like I had my parents around me and Yeah, it was a, it was a good upbringing. 247 00:15:00,164.3135 --> 00:15:06,614.3135 So I wanted to make sure I gave back when he passed and, and help my mom and make sure the store was going for the community. 248 00:15:06,614.3135 --> 00:15:08,284.3125 It became a place of grief. 249 00:15:08,314.3125 --> 00:15:14,744.3135 It was this most bittersweet time in my life because I was grieving my father, which was remarkably difficult. 250 00:15:15,124.3135 --> 00:15:17,214.3125 But I also found that the community. 251 00:15:17,694.3135 --> 00:15:20,244.3135 needed that space to grieve. 252 00:15:20,564.3135 --> 00:15:24,614.3135 And often the stories they told weren't anything about us. 253 00:15:24,664.3135 --> 00:15:29,104.3135 People would just come there and, um, share and wow. 254 00:15:29,124.3135 --> 00:15:30,124.3135 It was powerful. 255 00:15:30,294.3135 --> 00:15:42,974.3135 And I've always said, if I ever got super rich, I would buy that land and tear down the store and put in a grieving center there, like some type of nonprofit, um, with a big old garden in the back. 256 00:15:43,224.3135 --> 00:15:45,484.3135 So that's the rich dream. 257 00:15:45,809.3135 --> 00:15:50,209.3135 Well, if we get enough supporters on Patreon, you can help that. 258 00:15:50,329.3135 --> 00:15:50,989.3135 Look what you can do. 259 00:15:50,999.3135 --> 00:15:53,489.3135 You can do memorial country style. 260 00:15:53,529.3135 --> 00:15:54,339.3135 Country style. 261 00:15:55,59.3135 --> 00:15:59,949.3135 Um, so my mom decided to retire and I was like, I'm going to stay closer to home. 262 00:15:59,949.3135 --> 00:16:00,989.3125 I moved back to Ann Arbor. 263 00:16:01,439.3125 --> 00:16:05,749.3125 Um, got a job working minimum wage in a coffee shop. 264 00:16:05,769.3135 --> 00:16:07,659.3135 Cause I wanted to learn how to run a cafe. 265 00:16:08,189.3135 --> 00:16:10,889.3135 And, um, it was an interesting thing. 266 00:16:10,889.3135 --> 00:16:15,969.3135 Cause I was making minimum wage, working probably 25 hours a week, but I own two cars and a house. 267 00:16:16,414.3135 --> 00:16:22,464.3135 Because I had done so well before that I was able to like, parlay that into this new life and take time. 268 00:16:22,654.3135 --> 00:16:25,504.3135 I was gonna say that's, that sounds like capital American style. 269 00:16:25,514.3135 --> 00:16:26,44.3135 Yeah, Debt. 270 00:16:26,454.3135 --> 00:16:28,234.3135 You had savings that you I did, yeah. 271 00:16:28,814.3125 --> 00:16:31,944.3135 Um, I think my neighbors thought I was a drug dealer for a long time. 272 00:16:31,974.3125 --> 00:17:06,244.3135 Because I wasn't doing much, and I'd have different friends come to visit me because I was still like They were trying to help me grieve and like celebrate like this new life And I honest to God think they thought I was running some type of drug ring, and they never recovered We're sitting like five houses down from where I used to live, and I bet if I knocked on their doors now They still wouldn't be happy Um So, in one of those jobs, I met my future wife, who had gone through life transitions too, and was working in a cafe while she was getting her massage license. 273 00:17:06,254.3135 --> 00:17:18,424.3135 So, we opened a massage studio in 2008, and it was probably two weeks into that, New business venture in the middle of this recession that somebody, and I don't even remember who, but somebody told me Pete was out. 274 00:17:18,924.3135 --> 00:17:21,184.3125 And, um, and I was shocked. 275 00:17:21,304.3135 --> 00:17:27,64.3135 I, I, you had been doing a blog, which we're going to have some of those, um, posts available for you guys to read too. 276 00:17:27,544.3135 --> 00:17:33,204.3135 Uh, but I had somehow, I think just in the like craziness of my life with dad morning and falling in love and. 277 00:17:33,509.3135 --> 00:17:36,239.3135 And having to come out because I fell in love with a woman. 278 00:17:36,239.3135 --> 00:17:39,179.3135 So there was this huge, like, stuff going on in my own life. 279 00:17:39,209.3135 --> 00:17:41,959.3135 I, we, I just hadn't been in touch with you for a couple years. 280 00:17:42,339.3135 --> 00:17:45,909.3135 So when you got out, I was like, I was so excited. 281 00:17:46,279.3135 --> 00:17:50,599.3125 Um, and I just picked up the phone and I just dialed your old number, your parents number. 282 00:17:50,639.3125 --> 00:17:52,669.314 And, um, we reconnected. 283 00:17:52,669.314 --> 00:17:56,449.3135 And, and that probably is one of the happiest days that I've had. 284 00:17:56,479.3135 --> 00:18:04,244.3135 I was like, what the hell is going on with the Michigan criminal justice system? Pete Martell got out? What on earth? Man, I'll tell you. 285 00:18:04,244.3135 --> 00:18:05,324.3135 Yeah, that's a journey. 286 00:18:05,324.3135 --> 00:18:08,234.3135 I can't wait until we talk about that episode of just you moving around. 287 00:18:08,234.3135 --> 00:18:09,24.3135 We didn't agree to that. 288 00:18:09,544.3135 --> 00:18:10,534.3135 We did not agree to that. 289 00:18:10,574.3125 --> 00:18:11,284.3135 Oh, it's happening. 290 00:18:11,324.3125 --> 00:18:11,434.3125 Okay. 291 00:18:12,74.3135 --> 00:18:15,794.3135 Um, yes, but you did mention, um, old blog posts. 292 00:18:15,814.3135 --> 00:18:28,284.3125 There was a year where I was incarcerated after I got out of the hole that I was, uh, I'm my little prison typewriter typing away and I would print off the sheets and send them out to my parents who would scan them and try to get them in the best order that they could. 293 00:18:28,484.3135 --> 00:18:35,174.3135 So my cousin, Mark, um, could upload them and save them into our, into this website that I had. 294 00:18:35,184.3135 --> 00:18:40,184.3135 It was called, uh, notes from the inside and he designed the whole thing and it was very, very cool. 295 00:18:40,184.4135 --> 00:18:40,204.2135 Yeah. 296 00:18:40,464.3135 --> 00:18:41,194.3135 It's not up anymore. 297 00:18:41,194.3135 --> 00:18:45,134.3135 Don't look for it, but we still have the entries that we can make available to people. 298 00:18:45,304.3135 --> 00:18:52,384.3125 And it just occurred to me, I just realized you have, um, pilots that you wrote. 299 00:18:52,874.3135 --> 00:18:54,464.3135 I do that we should make available. 300 00:18:54,464.3135 --> 00:18:56,194.3125 Yeah, of course. 301 00:18:56,504.3135 --> 00:18:57,394.3125 I've never seen these. 302 00:18:57,634.3135 --> 00:18:59,544.3125 I love, I would, I would love to read these. 303 00:18:59,544.3125 --> 00:19:00,664.3125 I'm very proud of that word. 304 00:19:01,54.3135 --> 00:19:01,664.3135 That's great. 305 00:19:01,714.3135 --> 00:19:06,774.3135 Um, I was joking with Pete that cause he is an ex convict and I am an ex comic. 306 00:19:06,794.3135 --> 00:19:07,824.3135 So we are the original. 307 00:19:08,344.3135 --> 00:19:09,294.3135 Comic Con. 308 00:19:09,614.3135 --> 00:19:10,114.3135 Comic Con. 309 00:19:10,344.3135 --> 00:19:11,824.3135 You guys like that? Comic Con. 310 00:19:11,894.3135 --> 00:19:12,184.3135 I like it. 311 00:19:12,614.3135 --> 00:19:23,474.3135 Um, yeah, so Pete got out and then, uh, I'll tell you what, being a part of Pete's life during that first year that he was out was so fun. 312 00:19:24,179.3135 --> 00:19:26,409.3135 Because everything was so new to you. 313 00:19:26,429.3135 --> 00:19:26,929.3135 Jeez. 314 00:19:27,99.3135 --> 00:19:29,549.3135 And it was, I don't have children. 315 00:19:29,879.3135 --> 00:19:34,669.3135 I imagine if I did, it would be like watching children develop very quickly. 316 00:19:34,929.3135 --> 00:19:40,559.3135 You came out like this little baby, like there's technology and everything was new to know, I've got a Blackberry. 317 00:19:40,599.3135 --> 00:19:42,389.3135 Next thing you know, you have a fucking Blackberry. 318 00:19:42,859.3125 --> 00:19:46,919.3135 Um, but every, you were so excited about life. 319 00:19:47,229.3135 --> 00:20:00,689.3135 And I think as a human, I needed that because I've been so into grieving and like just having this like spark of someone who's like So excited to like walk outside, right? Like when I say you were excited about everything you were excited about everything. 320 00:20:00,689.3135 --> 00:20:13,89.3135 You never had a down day You were just full of joy and that was exceptional to watch I when I got out of the hole in 2005, it was up at Marquette branch prison, which is old school prison It's the bars. 321 00:20:13,249.3135 --> 00:20:14,319.3135 It's the concrete. 322 00:20:14,459.3135 --> 00:20:22,229.3135 It's the the yard inside of huge prison walls with gun towers You And they'll shoot the guns, they've got no problem with that, um, it's old school. 323 00:20:22,759.3135 --> 00:20:28,599.3125 And when I got out, this is level 5, maximum security, general population yard at Marquette. 324 00:20:29,624.3135 --> 00:20:31,894.3135 I felt like that walking through the chow line. 325 00:20:32,684.3135 --> 00:20:44,234.3125 10 years in solitary confinement, I could finally go to the chow line and I could pick for myself, do I want milk or do I want the fruit punch that comes in the glass or what? Some kind of like Kool Aid or something. 326 00:20:44,234.3135 --> 00:20:44,524.3135 Right. 327 00:20:44,584.3125 --> 00:20:51,294.3135 But I got to choose because otherwise they deliver the meals to the cell and you'd get what was there and you get what you get and you don't throw a fit. 328 00:20:51,524.3135 --> 00:20:54,124.3135 I remember a letter that you wrote me. 329 00:20:54,519.3135 --> 00:21:17,889.3135 Where you were saying how you hadn't felt rain in so long and I don't know Pete I think when you're on the outside and you have a friend that's in you you think about them, right? But you don't allow yourself to go into what conditions they're in because it's not fun Like are you sure? Hold on? I'm sorry. 330 00:21:18,99.3135 --> 00:21:18,799.3135 I'm caught up on this. 331 00:21:18,879.3135 --> 00:21:27,639.3135 Are you sure it was rain? Could you feel rain? Yeah, so when you're in solitary confinement in Michigan, it's not like you see in the movies You Yeah. 332 00:21:27,639.3135 --> 00:21:30,979.3135 This is a whole other episode, but it's not like in the movies with Clint Eastwood or whatever. 333 00:21:31,219.3135 --> 00:21:36,789.3135 You're in a cell, by yourself, and you can, you can communicate with other people who are on your cell block. 334 00:21:36,809.3135 --> 00:21:37,119.3135 Yeah. 335 00:21:37,149.3135 --> 00:21:39,99.3135 You can talk up the side of the door, they can hear you. 336 00:21:39,319.3135 --> 00:21:42,449.3135 If you're at Marquette and there's bars, you can, you know, unfortunately hear everything. 337 00:21:42,489.3125 --> 00:21:42,609.3125 Yeah. 338 00:21:42,679.3135 --> 00:21:43,259.3135 Right? All the time. 339 00:21:43,689.3135 --> 00:22:19,319.3135 But, Five times a week you can go out to these little yard cages and you back up to your cell door And they handcuff you behind your back and then they escort you out there They put you in one of these little yard cages and close the door and lock you in and then take the handcuffs off Of you and you're out there with other people who are in different cages Yeah and if you decide to go out to yard because guards have to escort you out there and they don't get to just sit and Talk about last night's show on TV instead in their break room They have to actually like escort people in and out if you go out to the yard cage for your hour for that day you And it's snowing or raining, then you're getting extra yard that day. 340 00:22:19,979.3135 --> 00:22:22,209.3135 They'll let, they'll let you like, Oh, you have two hour yard. 341 00:22:22,469.3135 --> 00:22:23,929.2135 Have a three hour yard. 342 00:22:23,929.3135 --> 00:22:25,979.3135 I'm going to look it up because I have the letters in some spots. 343 00:22:25,999.3125 --> 00:22:27,939.2135 Maybe knowing you, it could be some problem. 344 00:22:27,939.4135 --> 00:22:31,949.3135 It, it, uh, please do look that up. 345 00:22:31,989.3135 --> 00:22:34,89.3135 And maybe I was just, you know, ex con. 346 00:22:34,279.3135 --> 00:22:35,339.3135 I mean, I was just lying about it. 347 00:22:35,459.3135 --> 00:22:51,364.3135 Maybe you were just going for drama, but when, so we had a group of girlfriends that I graduate with, we'd get together a couple times a year and inevitably, when we get together, people would say, how's Pete, right? Because I think I was the, was I the only one in contact with you from that group? Oh, that's, that's probably right. 348 00:22:51,584.3135 --> 00:22:56,664.3135 So I'd always have to give the beat updates and then they'd want to log into MDOC and like, look up your picture. 349 00:22:56,694.3135 --> 00:22:56,784.3135 Right. 350 00:22:57,24.3135 --> 00:22:59,384.3125 So you could see you aging with us. 351 00:22:59,494.3125 --> 00:22:59,864.3125 Yeah. 352 00:22:59,934.3135 --> 00:23:04,834.3125 Um, but yeah, it was just really weird to think about you in. 353 00:23:05,874.3135 --> 00:23:06,764.3135 You can't, right. 354 00:23:06,764.3135 --> 00:23:08,544.3135 I still have no concept. 355 00:23:08,554.3125 --> 00:23:11,504.3135 I can Google like how big is a solitary confinement cell. 356 00:23:11,824.3135 --> 00:23:16,44.3135 But like to think of your conditions is, um, it's still overwhelming. 357 00:23:16,214.3135 --> 00:23:17,24.3135 Like I don't do it. 358 00:23:17,34.3135 --> 00:23:19,574.3135 So I can't imagine again, when I said earlier, right. 359 00:23:19,574.3135 --> 00:23:19,814.3135 You're. 360 00:23:20,474.3135 --> 00:23:22,204.3135 You've come out really healthy. 361 00:23:22,634.3135 --> 00:23:32,964.3135 Well, there was nothing to do but either read or do push ups or jumping jacks in your cell, right? So when Pete got out in 2008, he kind of just went on this rocket ship of education. 362 00:23:33,494.3135 --> 00:23:43,664.3135 Um, so just kind of run through that progression to get you where you are now, so I got out of the fall of 08 and right away I signed up for a community college. 363 00:23:44,259.3135 --> 00:23:46,29.3135 Uh, Mott Community College up in Flint. 364 00:23:46,59.3135 --> 00:23:49,699.3135 I started in January and, uh, you know, originally I wanted to get out. 365 00:23:49,699.3135 --> 00:23:51,399.3135 I wanted to become a welder up in Alaska. 366 00:23:51,839.3135 --> 00:23:54,499.3135 There was a ton of money and it felt like good life. 367 00:23:54,499.3135 --> 00:23:55,739.3125 I'll have a little cabin. 368 00:23:55,759.3125 --> 00:23:56,779.3125 I'll burn wood in the cabin. 369 00:23:56,779.3135 --> 00:23:57,589.3135 I'll have some dogs. 370 00:23:57,739.3135 --> 00:24:00,929.3135 And then I'll go out and work during the day and retire in however many years. 371 00:24:01,219.3125 --> 00:24:06,79.3135 And then I found out, oh, I've got a two year parole and I have to stay in the state for that amount of time. 372 00:24:06,479.3135 --> 00:24:10,689.3135 And I thought, well, if I've got to wait two years to go to Alaska, I might as well at least, like, learn how to use computers. 373 00:24:10,799.3135 --> 00:24:13,829.3135 So I signed up at Mott and started computer classes. 374 00:24:13,839.3135 --> 00:24:17,79.3135 And one of my first instructors there used to run the paralegal program. 375 00:24:17,239.3135 --> 00:24:19,949.3135 And she found out about my background and she was like, Oh, you should go to law school. 376 00:24:20,659.3125 --> 00:24:23,589.314 And I was like, well, that sounds like like something I might be very, very interested in. 377 00:24:23,609.314 --> 00:24:26,169.314 And given the time and money and whatever else, like, we'll see. 378 00:24:26,169.414 --> 00:24:27,499.314 And we started talking about things. 379 00:24:27,499.314 --> 00:24:30,609.314 And eventually, um, Alaska just didn't happen. 380 00:24:31,59.314 --> 00:24:31,419.314 Yet. 381 00:24:32,439.314 --> 00:24:34,929.314 If this podcast doesn't work out, Josie, I'm on my way. 382 00:24:35,69.314 --> 00:24:36,339.314 This is my last chance to do it. 383 00:24:37,9.314 --> 00:24:40,659.314 So I got into school and I enjoyed being in school and,, went to work. 384 00:24:41,19.314 --> 00:24:50,29.314 Paul Rheingold hired me at U of M law to work as his paralegal on this big class action lawsuit regarding, uh, the thousand or so people serving parolable life in Michigan. 385 00:24:51,89.314 --> 00:24:53,179.314 And, uh, I was doing that one day a week. 386 00:24:53,179.314 --> 00:24:56,729.314 I would drive down to Ann Arbor to work in that gorgeous law library reading room. 387 00:24:57,29.314 --> 00:25:00,419.314 That was just, uh, one of the greatest moments of my life, getting hired for that job. 388 00:25:00,419.314 --> 00:25:06,739.314 So, um, about a year there, and then a position opened over at American Friends Service Committee. 389 00:25:06,999.314 --> 00:25:11,239.314 I knew Natalie Holbrook from American Friends Service Committee from back when I was in the hole. 390 00:25:11,644.314 --> 00:25:24,94.314 She, uh, when she came on there, she wanted to do a research project about solitary confinement in Michigan and reached out to a bunch of us who had served long terms in there and her and I were working on a report together. 391 00:25:24,464.313 --> 00:25:29,864.314 And so then it was many, many years later, this position opened up and I applied for it and they very graciously hired me. 392 00:25:29,974.313 --> 00:25:32,114.314 And I worked there while I was in school. 393 00:25:32,174.314 --> 00:25:32,604.314 I've worked. 394 00:25:33,119.314 --> 00:25:39,19.314 An AFSC full time from 2010 until 2016 when I graduated from law school. 395 00:25:39,709.314 --> 00:25:48,899.313 And throughout that time, right, I finished at Mott Community College, I transferred over to U of M Flint, graduated there in 2012, and started law school at Wayne State. 396 00:25:49,299.313 --> 00:26:03,904.314 Uh, very, very, always thankful to the Dean of Admissions there, Erica Jackson, who was just so wonderful about the whole admissions process, which, um, Could have gone a very, very different way and had a huge negative impact on my life. 397 00:26:04,354.314 --> 00:26:05,754.314 But it was a huge celebration. 398 00:26:06,274.314 --> 00:26:08,784.314 Um, I remember talking to her on the phone initially. 399 00:26:08,994.313 --> 00:26:13,494.313 I remember stopping by the office and her telling me in person that I'd been accepted and that I'd received a scholarship. 400 00:26:13,504.314 --> 00:26:13,794.314 Yeah. 401 00:26:13,954.314 --> 00:26:15,704.314 And I remember the day of graduation. 402 00:26:15,754.314 --> 00:26:16,24.314 Yeah. 403 00:26:16,54.314 --> 00:26:19,234.214 Where she came back and there's all of us lined up with our caps and gowns on. 404 00:26:19,584.314 --> 00:26:24,844.314 And she came up to me, uh, with a big hug and we were both, uh, quite a bit in tears that I'd made it through it. 405 00:26:25,104.314 --> 00:26:26,134.314 I'd survived law school. 406 00:26:26,224.314 --> 00:26:26,754.314 Yeah. 407 00:26:27,694.313 --> 00:26:39,524.314 It's, um, it's been impressive, uh, to watch you, to your journey, to, To get out and try to, you know, and my, so my perspective is what's Pete going to do? Right. 408 00:26:39,684.314 --> 00:26:41,124.314 Always trying to fail better. 409 00:26:42,554.314 --> 00:26:43,314.314 You've nailed it. 410 00:26:43,554.313 --> 00:26:53,184.3135 What's Pete going to do? Um, and then to watch you just, I joke that it was, I thought I was doing good things, right? I started a new business, then I expanded my business. 411 00:26:53,184.3135 --> 00:26:55,854.314 And every time I was doing something, you were like, Oh, you're expanding your business. 412 00:26:55,884.314 --> 00:26:57,314.314 I got a free ride to law school. 413 00:26:57,574.314 --> 00:26:59,224.314 Like, Oh my goodness, like I got that. 414 00:26:59,224.314 --> 00:27:00,694.314 And it never, you never said that. 415 00:27:00,694.314 --> 00:27:01,74.314 Right. 416 00:27:01,74.414 --> 00:27:03,34.314 But I was like, I can't get ahead of this fucker. 417 00:27:03,34.314 --> 00:27:03,294.314 Like. 418 00:27:03,564.314 --> 00:27:13,94.314 Somehow, our tracks now are like me just swimming and Pete like, look at me, um, I'm over here doing things. 419 00:27:13,144.313 --> 00:27:17,914.313 The Supreme Court wants me to work for them, Jesus, you know, or they don't. 420 00:27:17,964.314 --> 00:27:19,794.314 So this is the perfect example. 421 00:27:19,854.314 --> 00:27:24,724.314 I, my wife and I bought a cafe next door to our massage studio. 422 00:27:24,744.313 --> 00:27:29,74.313 And he shows up first day of the cafe opening. 423 00:27:29,74.313 --> 00:27:33,584.313 Pete shows up at six 30 in the morning with his little backpack on his first day of school. 424 00:27:33,744.313 --> 00:27:38,484.311 Would you like to tell him what that school was? Pete? It was, um, it was graduate school. 425 00:27:38,774.311 --> 00:27:42,234.311 He got accepted into U of M dual PhD program. 426 00:27:42,254.311 --> 00:27:43,144.311 Gerald R. 427 00:27:43,154.311 --> 00:27:44,934.311 Ford, School of Public Policy. 428 00:27:45,329.311 --> 00:27:46,589.311 their PhD program. 429 00:27:46,679.311 --> 00:27:55,709.311 Every year they take two people who are joint, that's public policy and econ, two that are public policy and poli sci, and two that are public policy and soc. 430 00:27:56,429.311 --> 00:28:03,164.311 So the year that I applied and graciously got in, I think they accepted two Public policy and social students. 431 00:28:03,224.311 --> 00:28:06,944.311 So, I remember it was early on in graduate school when the pandemic hit. 432 00:28:07,104.311 --> 00:28:11,897.9564545 I was on the bargaining team for GEO, the grad employees organization, the grad student union. 433 00:28:11,897.9564545 --> 00:28:15,934.211 Um, I remember we were in negotiations with the university and HR. 434 00:28:16,224.311 --> 00:28:22,134.311 When the pandemic hit and one of my colleagues on our side of our bargaining team, she was a PhD in public health. 435 00:28:22,204.311 --> 00:28:23,444.311 She's an epidemiologist. 436 00:28:23,684.311 --> 00:28:26,64.311 So she's giving us all the information on the pandemic. 437 00:28:26,64.311 --> 00:28:28,284.3105 And then she's giving the other side information on the pandemic. 438 00:28:28,284.3105 --> 00:28:29,194.3105 We went remote. 439 00:28:29,594.3105 --> 00:28:34,544.3095 You're, you own two businesses, small business owner of two businesses. 440 00:28:34,554.3095 --> 00:28:34,704.2105 And we went remote. 441 00:28:34,954.3105 --> 00:28:36,104.3105 The pandemic hits. 442 00:28:37,134.3105 --> 00:28:39,324.3105 Everything is like Mad Max out there. 443 00:28:39,374.3105 --> 00:28:49,774.2115 I Remember your Instagram reels stories and you were talking about How you as a business owner were struggling with the pandemic. 444 00:28:49,974.2115 --> 00:29:01,4.2115 And I remember being captivated and in awe of your sense of responsibility and thoughtfulness and just your goodwill towards society. 445 00:29:01,634.2105 --> 00:29:06,964.2115 Every other business owner was talking about, we can't close everything down because we're going to lose our business. 446 00:29:07,64.2115 --> 00:29:07,954.2115 We're going to go under. 447 00:29:08,124.2115 --> 00:29:09,474.2115 It's all very selfish. 448 00:29:09,884.2115 --> 00:29:11,484.2115 Kind of understandably. 449 00:29:11,484.2115 --> 00:29:18,114.2115 So people have probably invested all of their work and life savings and whatever into this, and they're very concerned about where it's going to go. 450 00:29:18,534.2115 --> 00:29:20,864.2115 You never said a word about that. 451 00:29:21,434.2115 --> 00:29:30,964.2115 You were always saying, delivering messages to your customers, your client base, whatever about, this is why we're closing our business down. 452 00:29:31,244.2115 --> 00:29:34,204.2115 And we'll make things available to you call in advance. 453 00:29:34,204.2115 --> 00:29:35,454.2115 You can walk up to the window. 454 00:29:35,454.2115 --> 00:29:40,774.2115 There's different things like we can get creative about things, but at the end of the day, there's a pandemic. 455 00:29:42,29.2115 --> 00:29:43,629.2115 global scale pandemic. 456 00:29:43,669.2115 --> 00:29:44,669.2115 People are dying. 457 00:29:45,39.2115 --> 00:29:46,299.2115 People are getting deathly sick. 458 00:29:46,629.2115 --> 00:29:54,549.2105 We'd have no idea how this is going to affect us, but we do know if we just try to continue running our business, it's not good for society. 459 00:29:54,879.2115 --> 00:29:58,679.211 Yeah, so It was really hard having two businesses during the pandemic. 460 00:29:59,39.211 --> 00:30:01,899.211 Um, and both service based business. 461 00:30:01,979.211 --> 00:30:05,389.211 So the cafe was closed for like two months in the beginning. 462 00:30:05,399.211 --> 00:30:07,829.211 The balance, the massage was closed for four and a half. 463 00:30:08,139.211 --> 00:30:09,469.21 And then it was figuring out how to reopen them. 464 00:30:09,639.211 --> 00:30:13,919.21 But we did, we took the approach that it was the people that mattered to us. 465 00:30:14,109.21 --> 00:30:16,949.211 And it started with our team and our families. 466 00:30:17,329.211 --> 00:30:19,824.111 We teach most important person that everybody has to be. 467 00:30:20,214.211 --> 00:30:21,794.211 a most important person in their life. 468 00:30:21,794.211 --> 00:30:22,824.211 And everybody is one. 469 00:30:23,274.211 --> 00:30:25,664.211 And that was really the guiding principle we fell back on. 470 00:30:25,934.211 --> 00:30:32,594.211 My mom is older, has severe COPD, and I knew early stages of COVID especially would be a death sentence for her. 471 00:30:32,884.211 --> 00:30:42,369.211 And so our whole goal Um, internally, when we talked about it, Chris and I talked about it, was we're not going to, um, be a place that causes loss of life for anybody. 472 00:30:42,759.211 --> 00:30:44,219.211 And so that's the approach we took. 473 00:30:44,229.211 --> 00:30:46,39.211 We closed our businesses on the 13th. 474 00:30:46,459.21 --> 00:30:48,849.211 And the state mandated it the next Monday. 475 00:30:49,359.211 --> 00:30:52,649.211 Um, so our approach was always safety first. 476 00:30:53,159.311 --> 00:30:56,419.311 I just run a business that money is not the primary factor in it. 477 00:30:56,989.311 --> 00:31:01,749.311 And it shouldn't be, if you run a good business for the right reasons, you'll make profit. 478 00:31:02,69.311 --> 00:31:07,329.31 So yeah, so we spent a lot of time sharing the message of, of why we were making the decisions we were making. 479 00:31:07,619.311 --> 00:31:14,569.311 Um, just so people know we had sold the cafe in 2022 cause we were exhausted from running both businesses. 480 00:31:14,819.311 --> 00:31:24,429.311 Um, but we still have a massage studio open and we still maintain, mask policy inside of our studios because we've had zero transmissions of COVID in our walls, which was our goal. 481 00:31:24,719.311 --> 00:31:38,549.311 And so we thought, well, if we're hitting our goal, we might lose some customers or clients that don't agree to our values, but that's okay because the people that do will always be grateful that they know they have a place that goes, that's safe. 482 00:31:38,789.311 --> 00:31:43,9.311 And we have so many clients that are going through different stages of chemotherapy or just older. 483 00:31:43,469.311 --> 00:31:45,239.31 It was always about maintaining. 484 00:31:45,414.311 --> 00:31:47,474.311 That safe space. 485 00:31:47,524.311 --> 00:31:48,634.311 So I'm very proud of that. 486 00:31:48,644.311 --> 00:31:51,914.311 But yeah, I was, you don't realize who you're reaching when you're doing it. 487 00:31:51,924.311 --> 00:31:59,494.311 So when the first time you told me like how proud you were of the way we were handling it, I was like, Oh, it's nice to hear that people respect it. 488 00:31:59,614.311 --> 00:31:59,944.311 Yeah. 489 00:32:00,204.31 --> 00:32:02,364.311 Well, in a, in a, at that time, right. 490 00:32:02,384.311 --> 00:32:04,344.311 I'm in a graduate program for sociology. 491 00:32:04,344.311 --> 00:32:05,684.311 That is very much based. 492 00:32:05,714.311 --> 00:32:12,434.311 Any good social program is going to have some sort of basis in a critique of capital. 493 00:32:13,59.311 --> 00:32:42,924.311 An American capitalism as it is right now, which is like beyond what I think anything Adam Smith ever would have imagined, right? The token may have imagined it, but, um, seeing that I was so proud of you and I felt like, oh, wow, this is maybe like a saving grace for, the way that I think about business and small business owners and, makes me think a little more completely about people just as people. 494 00:32:43,34.311 --> 00:32:50,184.31 And because we love to do these shortcuts and just classify people into categories, and that way we don't have to do very much deep thinking about them as individuals and humans. 495 00:32:50,574.31 --> 00:33:01,24.311 We all have like, all different learning experiences and traumas they've suffered, and all of the experiences that they carry along with them on their shoulders, that they will pass along. 496 00:33:01,184.311 --> 00:33:20,199.311 Um, but seeing that made me realize like, there's a large degree of nuance with every single individual and this, this push towards classifying and categorizing and shortcutting and making things easier for us to think about does us a huge disservice. 497 00:33:21,619.311 --> 00:33:26,159.311 So I think that's so important and I think this is so layered through everything that we've talked about. 498 00:33:26,709.311 --> 00:33:39,959.411 If we go back and we talk about when we grew up, they classified us, they, they, they did all these things, right? They started telling us, I'm smarter than you, when I'm not, right? Because we have different strengths, or different ways of letting it out. 499 00:33:40,139.411 --> 00:33:46,939.411 Um, I'm sure you felt the dehumanization in prison, right? Like you're a number. 500 00:33:47,789.411 --> 00:34:03,699.411 And, um, and so I have spent so many years thinking about that effect on people at all different levels, and how you can be a voice for reminding people that we are somebody behind. 501 00:34:05,489.411 --> 00:34:06,709.411 I'm working on my keynotes now. 502 00:34:06,709.411 --> 00:34:14,159.4105 So it's somebody behind the name tag or somebody behind the role, right? Like we are where we are today because of all the things we've done. 503 00:34:14,159.4105 --> 00:34:27,259.41 And I know that sounds trite and people say it all the time, but it's, it's something you have to keep at the forefront of your mind when you're meeting someone, the experiences they have had led them to the responses that they're having. 504 00:34:27,459.411 --> 00:34:34,159.411 And I think as we go forward in this podcast and we're talking about policy and we're trying to let people know what matters. 505 00:34:34,374.411 --> 00:34:36,794.411 It's not that we're going to be putting our spin on it. 506 00:34:36,944.411 --> 00:34:47,294.411 What we're going to be doing is saying, this is a policy that could impact you because of this, or this is how it will impact you, even if you're not thinking about it. 507 00:34:47,754.411 --> 00:35:08,989.41 Um, and so I think that that bit you just said is so important and so relevant to where we are and what we want to do because We we do categorize things we do and it's easier for us to process when it's Categorized because you can put less focus on the things you don't want to yes And just bring the things that you want to up to then work with them. 508 00:35:09,59.41 --> 00:35:23,499.41 Also, there's this idea of contingency So when we create these mental shortcuts to make our thinking processes more efficient And it helps us It helps us get from point A to point G very, very quickly. 509 00:35:23,789.41 --> 00:35:40,739.409 Everything that we don't have to think about through there that we just leave out because of that shortcut, how we get to what we think about this person or situation at point G, what we do there, it matters. 510 00:35:41,229.41 --> 00:35:48,199.41 It matters going to from G to H or G to H two on that person. 511 00:35:48,699.41 --> 00:35:50,419.41 Does that make sense? It does make sense. 512 00:35:50,439.41 --> 00:35:50,929.409 I think. 513 00:35:51,264.41 --> 00:35:56,94.41 There's so many layers to this conversation, right? Because it's how you're raised. 514 00:35:56,144.41 --> 00:35:59,424.41 It's personality, it's mental health, it's physical health, it's education. 515 00:35:59,744.409 --> 00:36:03,414.41 All these things allow us to process information differently. 516 00:36:03,674.41 --> 00:36:09,944.409 And then it's if you're in trauma or you're having a trigger to trauma, like your brain, it's a physical, logical reaction to things. 517 00:36:09,944.509 --> 00:36:15,794.51 And so for me, it's the awareness and it's the teaching of, communication almost that. 518 00:36:18,849.51 --> 00:36:21,659.51 You have to be present with the people you're having conversations with. 519 00:36:22,459.51 --> 00:36:32,419.51 You have to be able to feel safe enough to say, I'm not capable of having this conversation right now, right? Um, but every response that you do have is going to impact people. 520 00:36:32,459.51 --> 00:36:37,639.509 So it's taking ownership of your responses and creating opportunities. 521 00:36:38,269.51 --> 00:36:50,389.51 To be honest, and I think about that when you first got out, sometimes we would go, I'm a lot less progressive than you are in general, right? Mm-Hmm. 522 00:36:50,749.51 --> 00:36:51,649.51 Um, I think I am. 523 00:36:51,769.51 --> 00:36:59,439.51 And so when it came to criminal justice stuff, I was raised and I had all these opinions on, um, it was black and white. 524 00:36:59,919.51 --> 00:37:01,449.51 You earned this, you made those. 525 00:37:02,684.51 --> 00:37:03,534.51 you've earned. 526 00:37:03,544.51 --> 00:37:03,784.51 Sure. 527 00:37:03,814.51 --> 00:37:05,344.51 That is what's happening to you. 528 00:37:05,404.51 --> 00:37:05,684.51 Yeah. 529 00:37:05,724.51 --> 00:37:14,864.51 Um, but sometimes you would present stuff and it would give me another way to, to look at where there's a person behind the number. 530 00:37:14,934.51 --> 00:37:15,364.51 Yeah. 531 00:37:16,64.51 --> 00:37:16,454.51 Wow. 532 00:37:17,934.51 --> 00:37:51,874.51 I don't think as humans, we are given the space to be critical thinking like that or Um, we give ourselves the space, right? So often we're just told to be a worker and that's the tricky part is how do you give people the ability to have the space to learn to be critical of their work? And I don't mean critical, but like critically think about things, analyze things in a way that critical in a negative sense, critical academically just means like, let's really think about who's telling us what, how reliable is this and other things that this person is missing. 533 00:37:52,674.509 --> 00:37:59,244.51 And then how do we feel? Um, how can we do that feeling? It's a safe thing where it's not judging. 534 00:37:59,334.51 --> 00:37:59,814.51 Yes. 535 00:38:00,444.51 --> 00:38:00,934.51 Yeah. 536 00:38:01,794.51 --> 00:38:17,874.509 So, yeah, I'm trying to get back to this question about like, I guess we're kind of in between like how we got here and where are we going with this? But, um, the, the straw that broke the camel's back where I finally broke down and said, Josie, we should do a podcast. 537 00:38:17,954.51 --> 00:38:32,24.51 Was you were, um, awarded this great opportunity at U of M to give your speech and your speech was based on the loss of your father and service, your dedication to service. 538 00:38:32,504.51 --> 00:38:33,914.509 I was blown away by that. 539 00:38:34,574.509 --> 00:38:35,344.509 That talk. 540 00:38:35,849.51 --> 00:38:37,589.51 I felt like was wow. 541 00:38:37,639.51 --> 00:38:40,849.51 Josie is the kind of change maker that we need. 542 00:38:41,119.51 --> 00:38:46,109.509 People need to be listening to her and we need to be doing exactly what she's preaching. 543 00:38:46,519.51 --> 00:38:53,309.51 We need to focus more because like as a society right now we're in a very diseased state. 544 00:38:54,349.511 --> 00:39:05,149.51 We spend so much time undermining the other side, making fun of the other side, ridiculing the other side, which is very much just along political lines. 545 00:39:05,219.51 --> 00:39:08,969.51 There's lots of other cultural, religious, whatever wise that we can draw there. 546 00:39:08,969.51 --> 00:39:17,619.51 But so much of our time and effort and our lives and our mental capacity is spent on beating the other side. 547 00:39:17,689.51 --> 00:39:26,609.51 It's this competition, right? And you approach this as we need to dedicate our lives to serving each other being there for each other. 548 00:39:26,999.51 --> 00:39:32,219.51 Developing friendships, developing understanding and all of the other stuff is just some bullshit. 549 00:39:33,129.51 --> 00:39:55,789.51 I don't need to worry about profit I need to worry about my clients their well being their safety What my business is doing to our community what my community is doing to society Yeah, I think it's a sincere thing that you have to believe and and so when we teach it I mean, I spend my life for the past 16 years learning service, teaching service. 550 00:39:56,29.51 --> 00:39:58,809.51 I always say, naturally, I'm a 1 0 thinker. 551 00:39:58,899.51 --> 00:40:00,649.51 Right? Like, it's right or wrong. 552 00:40:00,649.51 --> 00:40:01,359.51 It's black or white. 553 00:40:01,989.51 --> 00:40:13,649.51 And when I learn the service voice, I'm allowed to, let that part of my brain rest because the only 1 and 0 in that equation is that I'm using service. 554 00:40:14,4.51 --> 00:40:15,414.51 I'm either using it or I'm not. 555 00:40:15,674.51 --> 00:40:27,234.51 And when I start applying the service lens to situations, I'm less worried about what is right, as opposed to how am I interacting with the human in front of me. 556 00:40:27,544.51 --> 00:40:34,604.51 Um, and when you take that approach, you're, you're going to learn more. 557 00:40:35,224.51 --> 00:40:36,754.51 But you have to allow yourself to be vulnerable. 558 00:40:36,774.51 --> 00:40:41,79.51 Again, I, I come back to the thing where it has to, uh, It's not going to happen overnight. 559 00:40:41,239.51 --> 00:40:51,379.509 We have to find the change that we allow people to feel safe, and I'm a big proponent of looking at everything through the four stages of learning. 560 00:40:51,714.51 --> 00:40:59,254.51 Which is Noel Birch's 1960 approach and it's basically a quadrant that says when you're learning anything There's four stages. 561 00:40:59,254.51 --> 00:41:02,184.509 And the first one is you're unconsciously incompetent. 562 00:41:02,334.51 --> 00:41:06,474.51 You don't know what you don't know Then you move to conscious incompetence. 563 00:41:06,484.509 --> 00:41:16,644.51 You now know what you don't know you move then into conscious competence You know what you know, and then you move to unconscious competence. 564 00:41:16,694.51 --> 00:41:18,44.51 You don't even know how you know it. 565 00:41:18,514.51 --> 00:41:34,749.41 And so if you think about that just in terms of learning, a task, learning something at work, learning to play a musical instrument, it's, it makes sense, but you want to also take a look at that in regards to how it affects the brain. 566 00:41:36,369.51 --> 00:41:46,809.51 political views because so often when there is that fighting, it's that somebody feels uncomfortable, right? They're now learning something they didn't know and they're aware of it. 567 00:41:46,819.51 --> 00:41:47,909.51 You can, you can pick anything. 568 00:41:47,909.512 --> 00:41:49,369.511 Like somebody is like, Oh, this exists. 569 00:41:49,619.511 --> 00:41:51,129.51 And then natural reaction. 570 00:41:51,724.511 --> 00:41:55,954.511 is to be uncomfortable and we don't spend enough time working through it. 571 00:41:55,964.511 --> 00:41:59,744.511 So I created what I like to call the four stages of human emotions that tie to it. 572 00:41:59,744.511 --> 00:42:05,164.511 So that first quadrant, when you don't know what you don't know, it's ignorance, right? You just are living in your world. 573 00:42:05,524.51 --> 00:42:11,529.511 When you move into that uncomfortable zone of, So now you know what you don't know, that's anxiety. 574 00:42:12,279.511 --> 00:42:17,239.51 And then you move into confidence and then mastery, which can become arrogance. 575 00:42:17,299.511 --> 00:42:28,389.512 And so I cycle everything in my life through these four stages of both learning and emotion to help me figure out what stage somebody might be in based on what I'm getting from them. 576 00:42:28,409.512 --> 00:42:28,669.512 Yeah. 577 00:42:28,739.512 --> 00:42:30,154.412 And then what my role is. 578 00:42:30,414.512 --> 00:42:37,964.512 is to get us both to a confident zone where we can at least have conversations that aren't based on anxiety or fear. 579 00:42:38,104.512 --> 00:42:45,144.512 So in work, you see anxiety as an attrition or insubordination, but in life, anxiety is The fight or flight. 580 00:42:45,144.512 --> 00:42:46,254.512 And that's really what it is. 581 00:42:46,254.512 --> 00:42:50,184.512 You're fighting with someone or you're saying, I don't want to talk about it. 582 00:42:50,544.512 --> 00:42:52,454.512 And that's where we're living in society. 583 00:42:52,454.512 --> 00:42:56,54.512 There's so many things that don't impact us every day. 584 00:42:56,264.512 --> 00:43:01,924.511 And so when that agita, right, it feels like agita us comes in and it's changing the way we see the world. 585 00:43:02,314.511 --> 00:43:06,374.512 It's our natural physiological reaction as humans, which is not right or wrong. 586 00:43:06,824.512 --> 00:43:09,634.512 Is to try to figure out what to do with it. 587 00:43:09,874.512 --> 00:43:12,904.512 And you can see so much of the world we're in just. 588 00:43:13,499.512 --> 00:43:18,569.512 People not knowing or being taught how to take that as an opportunity. 589 00:43:18,579.512 --> 00:43:28,959.512 Which was the service point, right? The speech was about how do you accept what you've been given and how do you find the most positive way to have an impact on it. 590 00:43:28,969.511 --> 00:43:30,139.511 Even if it's not what you want. 591 00:43:30,139.512 --> 00:43:37,239.511 If you don't get the result you want, are you still having the most positive result possible? That's my take on everything. 592 00:43:37,339.511 --> 00:43:38,809.511 You're a social psychologist. 593 00:43:39,219.511 --> 00:43:41,149.512 Well, that's One way to look at it. 594 00:43:41,209.512 --> 00:43:42,549.512 It's, yeah, wow. 595 00:43:42,899.512 --> 00:43:43,969.512 It's fascinating. 596 00:43:44,219.512 --> 00:43:46,99.512 And I had no idea there was so much going on. 597 00:43:46,99.512 --> 00:43:47,49.512 I knew there was a lot going on. 598 00:43:47,139.512 --> 00:43:49,799.512 But there's so much going on in your interactions, in your head. 599 00:43:50,429.512 --> 00:43:50,909.512 Jeez. 600 00:43:50,949.511 --> 00:43:57,89.511 It's a choice, right? Like, so I always tell people, like, sometimes I just need to turn it off. 601 00:43:57,89.511 --> 00:44:03,19.512 And I need to have interactions that are just here, right? So, I mean, we've had things before. 602 00:44:03,19.512 --> 00:44:06,209.512 We're probably just back and forth where I'm not, like, giving the service. 603 00:44:06,569.512 --> 00:44:09,309.511 But if I, it needed to, if I thought, oh, I can tell Pete's voice. 604 00:44:10,589.512 --> 00:44:15,39.512 I can turn that on I would say looking through service is a better version of me. 605 00:44:15,349.512 --> 00:44:23,699.511 It allows me to be the best version of who I can be to have the best interaction with that person, even if they're not in that mindset. 606 00:44:25,679.511 --> 00:44:29,49.511 New title for this segment is how to win arguments against Joe. 607 00:44:30,619.512 --> 00:44:31,399.512 It's not that hard. 608 00:44:31,549.512 --> 00:44:34,939.512 As soon as I'm losing and I realize I'm wrong about something, I'm from now on. 609 00:44:34,939.512 --> 00:44:37,219.512 I'm just gonna say, Jo, I need to service Josie right now. 610 00:44:37,429.512 --> 00:44:37,909.512 help me. 611 00:44:38,569.512 --> 00:44:39,49.512 Help me. 612 00:44:39,619.512 --> 00:44:40,369.512 I would give it. 613 00:44:40,369.512 --> 00:44:41,54.512 I knows. 614 00:44:41,334.512 --> 00:44:42,559.512 I know that's your heart. 615 00:44:42,649.512 --> 00:44:43,519.512 That's where I'm at. 616 00:44:43,669.512 --> 00:44:44,149.512 Wow. 617 00:44:45,19.512 --> 00:44:47,359.512 So that's where you're at. 618 00:44:47,819.512 --> 00:44:49,49.512 This is where we're going. 619 00:44:49,959.512 --> 00:44:52,509.512 Yeah, so where we're going I think is taking the. 620 00:44:52,934.512 --> 00:44:55,294.512 It's basically what we've just talked about over the past 20 minutes. 621 00:44:55,464.512 --> 00:45:00,94.512 It's taking these experiences that we've had, these lessons that we've had, these approaches that we have to life. 622 00:45:00,144.512 --> 00:45:07,64.512 Pete is going to be, uh, come at things probably very academic, right? He's got a lot of background, very well read. 623 00:45:07,484.512 --> 00:45:25,689.512 Um, I'm going to come at things from a perspective that's, you know, analyzing them from a service perspective or learning perspective or where are we, but inviting in, other people to have these conversations with us about that policy and matters that affect our community in ways they might not even be aware of it. 624 00:45:25,729.511 --> 00:45:27,399.511 Yeah, we don't know what we don't know. 625 00:45:27,449.511 --> 00:45:28,29.511 Exactly. 626 00:45:28,29.511 --> 00:45:29,19.511 And there's so much. 627 00:45:29,19.511 --> 00:45:34,269.511 So I, um, yeah, I've been an academic, I've worked in law, I've been in prisons, I've worked in prisons. 628 00:45:34,649.51 --> 00:45:35,269.51 Um. 629 00:45:35,639.512 --> 00:46:00,939.512 And in certainly in prisons in, Michigan Supreme Court cases in the legislature legislation that's pending before the court for so many people, they're not paying attention to that or they don't have access to like some sort of source that can just explain like what's the issue if this goes this way or if it goes that way. 630 00:46:01,9.512 --> 00:46:06,649.512 What are the outcomes going to look like for me? Or for my community. 631 00:46:07,409.512 --> 00:46:12,339.512 So these are the things, this is, I, I, I want this to be policy based. 632 00:46:12,489.512 --> 00:46:15,429.512 I want it to be Michigan specific, because we can't get bigger than that. 633 00:46:15,489.512 --> 00:46:28,139.512 We can't cover everything that's going on in Michigan, but I'd like to keep an eye on like what's going on before our Supreme Court right now, and the outcomes, what is that going to mean for people? Um, I, I'm always happy to talk about like prisons because nobody knows what's going on in prisons. 634 00:46:28,719.512 --> 00:46:33,9.512 Nobody knows there's a hundred people in Michigan's prison system that have been in prison for over 50 years. 635 00:46:33,974.512 --> 00:46:36,204.512 These are old people that we're spending a ton of money on in there. 636 00:46:36,434.512 --> 00:46:41,94.512 That's money we could be spending in other places to actually make safer, healthier communities. 637 00:46:41,724.512 --> 00:46:43,864.511 There's so much that we just don't know about. 638 00:46:43,884.512 --> 00:46:50,714.513 And the little bits and pieces that I do know, I'd like to get out there in conversation just to get people thinking about it and to have us talking about it. 639 00:46:50,744.512 --> 00:46:52,974.511 Yeah, I think 100%. 640 00:46:52,974.512 --> 00:47:00,452.037 And if I'm thinking of it from my perspective, it's how are we doing so in a way that's giving people a safe space to have real conversations and to have real conversations. 641 00:47:00,869.512 --> 00:47:09,459.512 Um, how are we getting them out of fight or flight? How are we removing as much anxiety as we can? Again, I always say there's three things you can't change about someone. 642 00:47:09,459.512 --> 00:47:11,409.512 Personality, mental health, and physical health. 643 00:47:11,679.512 --> 00:47:31,434.611 And if we're just aware of that every day and every interaction we have, that's one way you can create a safe environment because you're aware but if we can do what we can do inside of this podcast to move that conversation where we're providing information or we're having experts come in and talk, that's just helping remove any potential anxiety that we can remove. 644 00:47:31,634.61 --> 00:47:38,324.611 So we're giving people the best opportunity to have the greatest impact that they can on the things that matter to them. 645 00:47:38,464.611 --> 00:47:38,904.611 Yeah. 646 00:47:40,554.611 --> 00:47:41,454.611 I'm excited about this. 647 00:47:41,454.611 --> 00:47:42,834.611 I'm very excited about it. 648 00:47:43,344.611 --> 00:47:44,464.611 and we're excited that you're here. 649 00:47:44,484.611 --> 00:47:45,484.611 Thank you for listening. 650 00:47:45,704.611 --> 00:47:50,944.61 There are a few things that you can do to help us, um, with this podcast. 651 00:47:51,284.611 --> 00:47:54,704.611 And the first one would be just following us again on Instagram. 652 00:47:54,724.611 --> 00:47:57,224.612 It's at the drum beat podcast. 653 00:47:57,504.611 --> 00:48:08,664.611 We are going to be providing some fun behind the scene things as we go, but we're also going to use it as an opportunity to share some of the information that we're talking about in each episode to use it as a resource. 654 00:48:09,714.611 --> 00:48:12,654.611 We also have a Patreon membership account that you can help with. 655 00:48:12,654.611 --> 00:48:20,204.611 We have three levels based on our drumbeat theme, and they are fans, roadies, and headliners. 656 00:48:20,424.611 --> 00:48:26,984.61 And if we get enough support, we'll be opening up an extra session called Opening Act, which will have some more fun. 657 00:48:26,994.61 --> 00:48:31,484.611 If you're looking for information, the link is in the Instagram bio, so you can check out what that is. 658 00:48:31,484.611 --> 00:48:34,834.611 This money is just going to help Pete and I, Produce the podcast. 659 00:48:34,964.611 --> 00:48:35,764.611 And get rich. 660 00:48:35,824.611 --> 00:48:38,494.611 And buy a, uh, grieving center in. 661 00:48:39,94.611 --> 00:48:39,374.611 Yes. 662 00:48:39,414.611 --> 00:48:40,384.611 It's actually Metamora. 663 00:48:40,534.611 --> 00:48:43,604.611 Did you know this? I was, my zip code was Metamora, Michigan. 664 00:48:44,834.611 --> 00:48:49,364.611 And to this day, I have a hard time telling people I'm from Dryden because I love Metamora so much. 665 00:48:49,384.611 --> 00:48:50,464.611 we were from separate sides of the tracks. 666 00:48:50,504.611 --> 00:48:51,34.611 We were. 667 00:48:52,164.611 --> 00:49:00,119.612 Anything else you want to say, Pete? So this is our first episode that's dropping and it happens to be my mom's birthday. 668 00:49:00,229.612 --> 00:49:01,349.612 Happy birthday, mom. 669 00:49:01,389.612 --> 00:49:02,439.612 Happy birthday. 670 00:49:02,449.612 --> 00:49:06,289.612 Thank you so much for all of the love and support, throughout all of these years. 671 00:49:06,309.611 --> 00:49:10,229.612 And, um, sorry about, you know, all that other stuff. 672 00:49:10,399.612 --> 00:49:12,219.612 I, I want to say one thing on this. 673 00:49:12,289.612 --> 00:49:19,749.612 I If you don't know Pete's history with clerking for Justice Bolden, I do recommend that you Google it. 674 00:49:19,939.612 --> 00:49:21,379.612 My history, it was two days. 675 00:49:21,409.612 --> 00:49:21,739.612 Yes. 676 00:49:21,929.612 --> 00:49:22,739.612 It's a good history. 677 00:49:23,149.612 --> 00:49:28,549.612 Um, and when this was happening, I was very upset with Justice Bernstein. 678 00:49:28,829.612 --> 00:49:29,799.612 And so I wrote him a letter. 679 00:49:30,819.611 --> 00:49:34,919.611 And in that letter I said, you're missing the real story. 680 00:49:35,689.611 --> 00:49:44,809.612 And the real story is about Second chances, right? And, and the love of Pete's family. 681 00:49:44,889.612 --> 00:49:57,869.611 If you want to know the story of Pete, you have to go to his parents and understand how much support and love they gave him while he was incarcerated. 682 00:49:57,869.612 --> 00:50:00,219.612 I, I, I'm humbled by it. 683 00:50:00,299.612 --> 00:50:01,679.612 Talk about acts of service. 684 00:50:01,769.612 --> 00:50:02,79.612 Yeah. 685 00:50:02,139.612 --> 00:50:04,299.612 Your parents lived that for years. 686 00:50:04,319.612 --> 00:50:08,919.612 My parents, my grandparents, my aunts and uncles and cousins, my friends. 687 00:50:08,979.612 --> 00:50:09,59.612 Yeah. 688 00:50:10,819.612 --> 00:50:16,849.612 There's nothing special about Pete Martel except for the context in which I live in because of the relationships that I have. 689 00:50:16,849.612 --> 00:50:17,209.612 Yeah. 690 00:50:17,739.612 --> 00:50:19,209.612 Anyway, happy birthday. 691 00:50:19,269.612 --> 00:50:20,39.611 Happy birthday, mom. 692 00:50:20,219.612 --> 00:50:21,749.611 And, um Happy birthday, Ethan. 693 00:50:22,109.612 --> 00:50:23,519.612 Oh, is it Ethan's birthday too? Yeah. 694 00:50:23,649.612 --> 00:50:24,559.612 Oh, that's fun. 695 00:50:24,669.612 --> 00:50:26,69.611 One real quick shout out. 696 00:50:26,119.611 --> 00:50:27,639.612 This is airing September 14th. 697 00:50:27,949.612 --> 00:50:31,159.612 Uh, that night I'll be in Berkeley at Flipside Records. 698 00:50:31,619.612 --> 00:50:33,429.612 There's this band I'm fascinated with right now. 699 00:50:33,429.612 --> 00:50:35,259.612 It's a local Detroit band that's so good. 700 00:50:35,489.612 --> 00:50:36,239.611 Sonic Smart. 701 00:50:37,24.612 --> 00:50:49,474.612 They've got stuff up on all of the things or whatever, but they'll be playing at flip side records on the 14th short notice on this, but please come out Friday, September 27th and see Sonic smut down in Melvindale at parts of labor. 702 00:50:50,89.612 --> 00:50:50,809.612 Doors at 8. 703 00:50:51,89.612 --> 00:50:54,69.612 Are we getting paid for this spot? They're an incredibly good band. 704 00:50:54,79.612 --> 00:50:54,909.612 We're not getting paid. 705 00:50:55,79.612 --> 00:50:55,979.612 They're just that good. 706 00:50:56,19.612 --> 00:50:56,389.612 Okay. 707 00:50:56,489.612 --> 00:50:57,759.612 I'm not trying to promote them. 708 00:50:57,899.612 --> 00:51:01,99.612 I just want people to be able to enjoy good music. 709 00:51:01,279.612 --> 00:51:02,549.612 You don't know what you don't know. 710 00:51:02,649.612 --> 00:51:05,749.612 If you don't know about Sonic Smut, they're incredibly good. 711 00:51:06,129.612 --> 00:51:07,649.612 I've been in tears at their concerts. 712 00:51:08,29.612 --> 00:51:08,679.612 They're so good. 713 00:51:08,709.612 --> 00:51:09,419.512 Were you high? I was high. 714 00:51:10,379.612 --> 00:51:14,449.612 Uh, for some of them, the last one I went to, I was not the tears with the tears. 715 00:51:14,469.612 --> 00:51:20,609.612 But yes, um, they've got switches in their songs that just catch in your throat the way a cello does. 716 00:51:20,949.612 --> 00:51:25,119.612 And it evokes some like, wow, where did that come from? That's been gorgeous stuff. 717 00:51:25,149.612 --> 00:51:25,599.612 I love it. 718 00:51:25,699.612 --> 00:51:25,979.612 Yeah. 719 00:51:26,359.612 --> 00:51:26,679.611 All right. 720 00:51:26,709.612 --> 00:51:28,309.612 Thank you so much for listening to us. 721 00:51:28,349.611 --> 00:51:34,499.61 we really look forward to building this podcast up, getting your feedback and Pete's got us on tap for some incredible guests. 722 00:51:34,509.61 --> 00:51:36,579.61 So look for more information for that soon. 723 00:51:37,409.61 --> 00:51:38,379.61 I'm excited about this. 724 00:51:38,439.61 --> 00:51:38,839.61 Me too. 725 00:51:39,139.61 --> 00:51:40,349.61 Thank you so much for listening. 726 00:51:40,379.61 --> 00:51:41,9.61 Appreciate you. 727 00:51:42,474.5475 --> 00:51:46,284.5475 Thanks so much for listening to the drum beat with Josie and Pete. 728 00:51:46,614.5475 --> 00:51:49,854.5475 Give us a follow on Instagram at the drum beat podcast. 729 00:51:50,94.5475 --> 00:51:54,624.5475 Look for our link on how you can support us with our Patrion campaign. 730 00:51:54,864.5475 --> 00:51:58,14.5475 And we look forward to bringing you more quality content and.