December 11, 2024 • 54 mins
In this powerful episode, I sit down with Dana Sherrod, a dedicated advocate for Black maternal health. Dana shares her personal journey, including a traumatic labor and delivery experience that transformed her into a passionate voice for change. From her childhood dreams of becoming a cab driver or a nurse to her current work as a fearless leader in the maternal health space, Dana’s story is one of resilience, purpose, and advocacy.
Tune in to hear about Dana’s efforts to raise awareness of the racial disparities in maternal health and her work to create systemic change. She also opens up about her personal passions, including her love for singing and playing the guitar, which bring her joy and balance amidst her impactful work.
We discuss:
- The alarming racial disparities in maternal health and what needs to change.
- How Dana’s personal experience shaped her career in advocacy.
- The importance of self-care and finding joy in everyday life.
- Practical ways to support Black maternal health initiatives.
Connect with Dana:
Instagram: @cablackbirthjustice
Website: http://www.cablackbirthjustice.com
Connect with Angela: Website: www.angelavharris.com Instagram: @coachangelavharris @theflowpodcastwithangela LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/angelavharris Book a Discovery Call: http://www.calendly.com/angelavharris
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Season 2 coming…..
We're gearing up for Season 2 of The F.L.O.W. Podcast and would love your input. What topics or guests would you like to see featured? Email your suggestions to angela@angelavharris.com. Let's make this season even more inspiring!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Angela Harris (00:05):
Welcome to the F.L.O.W. podcast, fearlessly
leading our way. This podcast isa space dedicated to
spotlighting the unfilteredvoices of black women in their
unique leadership journeys. I amyour host, Angela V. Harris, I'm
(00:26):
an award winning coach, speaker,author and champion from black
women. Make sure you like andsubscribe to this podcast to
stay connected to ourconversation, let's get ready to
Hey, fearless leaders, welcomeback to another episode of the
flow.
(00:57):
flow podcast. This episode, Isit down with Dana Sherrod ,
founder and executive directorof the California Coalition for
black birth justice. As a child,Dana had dreams of being a
taxicab driver or a nurse.Today, Dana is a powerhouse
(01:19):
advocate for equity and justicein healthcare. Her personal
journey includes a traumaticlabor and delivery experience
which has profoundly influencedher commitment to improving
maternal health outcomes forblack women when she's not
advocating for change, Danafinds joy in singing and playing
the guitar. Can't wait for youto meet, Dana. Let's get in to
(01:44):
today's episode. Welcome to theshow, Dana. I'm so honored to
have you here today.
Dana Sherrod (01:51):
Thank you so much. I'm so glad to have the time to
spend together. Thanks forhaving me.
Angela Harris (01:58):
Well. Read your bio, Dana, and you have such a
long list of accomplishments,and it just screams advocate and
servant leader. I'm curious,what kind of life did you
envision for yourself when youwere a young girl growing up in
Los Angeles?
Dana Sherrod (02:14):
It's a fun question, because I feel like
myself, like many other peoplesort of inadvertently fell into
this work. I, you know, my therunning joke in my family is
that while my parents werepaying for me to go to private
school, I told them I wanted tobe a cab driver, which, you
(02:38):
know, in many ways I probably amnow with my children, but, and,
but I wasn't sure, sort of, froman early age what I wanted to
do. I knew that I had a desire,I think, really a God given
desire, to serve people. One ofmy early memories around sort of
(03:00):
justice oriented work was, youknow, being aware of
homelessness, maybe around, youknow, eight, seven or eight, and
just being so confused. And Iasked my parents, you know, why
can't we put everyone in ahouse? Why can't we just give
everyone a home? And it was sobaffling to me that we had
(03:22):
people who were unhoused. And,you know, I was always sort of
the kid in the neighborhood whowas like, come to my house,
we'll feed you, andvolunteering, you know, my
parents groceries. And so Ithink I've just always had a
heart for people, for servingpeople and loving people, and
it's come full circle into mywork. I used to think I wanted
(03:46):
to be as an adult, I used tothink I wanted to be a nurse,
because a lot of my family arenurses, and I learned very
quickly that I have a very weakstomach, and nursing was out for
me, and I was very fortunate tofind public health and
specifically black maternalhealth.
Angela Harris (04:11):
So I heard you say you went from wanting to be
a cab driver to wanting to be anurse, and that didn't work out
for you, who were some of yourrole models as a child.
Dana Sherrod (04:22):
I you know, I, I love to say that I just have so
many amazing women, strong womenleaders in my family, and they
were, and continue to be, someof my earliest role models, you
know, my my mom, my aunts, mysister, who is older than me,
(04:45):
but we are very close there,really, I think the ones that
shaped a lot of who I am, how Isee the world, even, you know,
my maternal grandmother, whopassed when I was about two, so
I didn't, you know, obviously,really get to know her. And and
remember her, but so much of herinfluence, you know, shows up
through my mother and my auntand people in my life. And so,
(05:08):
you know, I, even, you know,give her a lot of honor and
credit, because in a lot ofways, she has also shaped the
women who have shaped me. Soit's, for me, been very close to
home more before it's been sortof external, positive
influences.
Angela Harris (05:28):
I love what you just said about your
grandmother, because I just sawa meme recently, and I was
talking about the concept ofancestral gifts, and sometimes
our ancestors, they weren't inthe time and place where they
could exercise those gifts. Butobviously they're passed down to
us, and you know, we are in thetime and place that we can
actually utilize those gifts. Sothat just really stood out to me
(05:49):
when you said that. I
Dana Sherrod (05:50):
know it's so amazing, you know how how that
works. I remember being aroundmaybe 19 or 20, and my mom just
used to always say, Oh, youremind me so much of my mother.
Your mannerisms, like your theway that you speak, and like
just so many things about youremind me of her, which is wild,
(06:12):
because I, you know, was achild. So just goes to show the
influence of, yeah, of of thosewho've come before us, in a lot
of ways,
Angela Harris (06:22):
that's so powerful. And I didn't know my
paternal grandparents, but Ihave pictures of them, but I'm
very fortunate in that Imaintained the house that I live
in that grew up in as a child.They purchased in 1946 and after
my father passed away, I'vemaintained that house. So I
still have that house today, andI've moved back in so, so
grateful for the legacy thatthey established for me well
(06:46):
before they even knew I wasgoing to be on this
Dana Sherrod (06:49):
earth. That's amazing. Oh, and what a blessing
to be able to have, you know, ahome and property where just,
you know, I can imagine, I canonly imagine, you know, all the
love and the hope and theprayers that have been poured
in, yes, yeah, that you get toreap the benefits of that,
that's amazing.
Angela Harris (07:08):
I think about that a lot. So, like I said,
what you said about yourgrandmother, and you know, you
really didn't know them. I justwonder what traits that I carry,
that my grandparents have.
Dana Sherrod (07:18):
Mm, hmm, absolutely.
Angela Harris (07:23):
Well, I know your career spans from mental health
advocacy to land use policy, andthere you're focused on maternal
health, what motivated you tostart taking a stand?
Dana Sherrod (07:36):
It's a great question. I i think you know
from, for me, I come to thiswork with a lot of personal
experience. I think first andforemost, it stems from, you
know, not only a love for forpeople and a heart for people,
but specifically, even further,a love and a heart for black
(07:57):
people in particular. You know,I think it's, it is the the
legacy of how we've been treatedin this country that I like to
say, it's just sort of embeddedin my DNA, and, you know, and
and coupled with my ownexperiences, you know, that
(08:18):
really drive me. I have twowonderful daughters. I had two
great pregnancies, but two verytraumatic labor and delivery
experiences with my with mysecond in particular, my
daughter, who's now six, I hadwhat we call a maternal near
(08:38):
miss, or near death. And whatthat means is, you know,
somebody who has survivedmaternal complications, you
know, either during labor anddelivery or in the postpartum
period. And near misses are somuch more frequent than
obviously maternal deaths. Butyou know, for for me, it was
(09:02):
just being smack up againsteverything that we talk about.
You know, from being dismissed,not listened to. You know, my
pain not being taken seriously,which resulted in an emergency
situation, um, and reallyneeding a C section under
general anesthesia. Normally,when people have C sections, you
(09:25):
know you're awake, but becauseof the urgent situation that
came up, I was under anesthesia,which means I wasn't awake or
present for the birth of mysecond child. My husband was not
allowed into the operating room,so no one was there while she
was born, except the medicalteam. And, you know, I had to be
(09:46):
readmitted 10 days postpartumfor an infection which also
disrupts how you can bond and,and, you know, I was
breastfeeding and, and so lotsof challenges. That I think, you
know, sometimes peopleintellectualize that going
through those experiences giveyou, gives you really a
(10:08):
different lens and a differentdrive to make real, lasting
change. So for me, you know,it's really about, how do I help
make sure that not one moreperson, not one more woman, in
general, but especially not onemore black woman, has to face a
lot of these harms that we're upagainst, particularly in the
(10:29):
medical system,
Angela Harris (10:33):
that is certainly traumatic, I mean, to have to be
the C section under anesthesiaand have to be readmitted to the
hospital, and, like you said,not have that opportunity to
fully bond with your baby. Yeah,
Dana Sherrod (10:46):
absolutely, it's, you know, it's a difficult
thing, and, and unfortunately, Iwas just reading a study the
other day about, you know, forfolks who have experienced a
near miss, or, you know, whatcould have potentially resulted
in death. You know, there reallyisn't much support for when you
(11:08):
go through something like that.We have so many sisters who are
walking around and carrying, youknow, all of this trauma in
their bodies and their you know,their minds and their hearts.
And we're just sort of like,well, we survived, so that's
great, but that's a very lowbar, you know, like, we should
have a lot higher standards forwhat we expect when we are
(11:32):
bringing in new life into theworld. So that really motivates
me a lot.
Angela Harris (11:40):
And what you said about the trauma in the body
like we don't recognize, youknow, what our bodies hold on
to, and in some instances, wepass that trauma down to our
children, generationally.
Dana Sherrod (11:52):
Absolutely, I
Angela Harris (11:55):
want to dig a little bit deeper. So According
to research from the Centers forDisease Control, I know black
women are three times morelikely to die from pregnancy
related causes than white women.I would love to hear your
insights into why thesedisparities exist and what
systemic factors are at play.
Dana Sherrod (12:16):
Yeah. Well, I think it's always really
important to you know, startwith sort of looking at how
black women and black bodieshave been treated, you know, in
the United States since we werebrought to this country over 400
years ago. You know, we knowthat black women, in particular,
particularly those who wereenslaved, you know, were
(12:39):
experimented on, and that thatunfortunate thread of
experimentation has continued,you know, even into contemporary
or modern times. You know, wecan look at forced
sterilizations. We can look at,you know, sort of controlling a
lot of black women'sreproductive autonomy and so
(13:02):
many, I think, factors that havejust been embedded into the way
that we think about black womenand black black women's bodies,
that we are somehow moretolerant or resistant to pain,
which we know is a myth, butunfortunately is still held As
as truth, you know that we havethicker skin, and all of these
(13:25):
things you know, show up when,maybe sometimes not overtly, but
can also show very covertly,when things like, you know, we
are being dismissed, or whenwe're saying that something is
is not Feeling right, and we'rejust disregarded as as if we
don't know about our own bodies.Yeah, and so really, it's been
(13:48):
sort of this, this legacy overgenerations about the beliefs
that are held about black womenand black bodies. So that's,
that's part. But I also think,you know, there's, we can look
at a lot of the the systemicfactors, you know, from just
(14:09):
physical environment. We canlook at, you know, so many of
the different, what we call thesocial drivers of health, things
that typically are protectivefactors for us. So things like
education, income levels,marital status. I mean, these
are all things in public healththat we sort of look at as
markers of being protectivefactors and and in many ways,
(14:33):
they can be. But for blackwomen, what we know in the
research is that they're notthese factors aren't as
protective for us and again, youknow, to me, it's always
important to look at rootcauses. We know that black
people have differences in justvarious things that help us
(14:55):
support our health and wellbeing. We can look back at, you
know, policy. And regulationsthat have resulted in
inequitable distribution ofresources and access to
resources, and so it can getvery deep when we talk about
sort of the impact of racismthat has really resulted in a
(15:19):
lot of these harms. But oneother aspect that I would add,
and this is such a it's such acomplex and varied issue, you
know, it's, it's, it's, it'smultifaceted in so many ways.
And so sometimes when peoplesay, oh, you know, this is the
solution, I'm like, well, well,we got it. We got to tackle this
(15:42):
from a lot of different ways,because it is very multifaceted.
One more sort of element that Iwould add is that, you know,
black women in particular, thatwe experiencing, we experience
what we call the weatheringeffect. So our bodies are aging,
you know, faster as a result ofreally racialized living in a
(16:07):
racialized society. So that wearand tear on the body over years
of dealing with racism, years ofdealing with, you know,
oppression at a structurallevel, it wears our bodies down,
and that shows up with how webirth, how we, you know, live,
and really looking across ourentire lives. So it's very, very
(16:32):
multifaceted issue.
Angela Harris (16:38):
You touched on so many things with that, and I
just want to go back to what yousaid about how oftentimes black
women are dismissed. And I knowwe're talking about black
maternal health, but I also havemy own experience with having my
medical concerns dismissed. Iremember I was still working in
corporate America, and I didn'tknow it at the time, but I was
(16:58):
dealing with work related PTSDand depression, depression and
depression and anxiety. And Iwent to a doctor who was a white
man. My my primary doctor was onvacation, and she had a someone
filling in for her, and hehappened to be a white male. And
I'm going through all thesymptoms that I was
(17:19):
experiencing, heartpalpitations, trouble sleeping,
and this was actually post acancer diagnosis as well. So I'm
going through all the issuesthat I'm experiencing, and I
guess because I didn't look acertain way, he didn't take my
concerns seriously, and heliterally told me to go home and
do breathing exercises. You Oh
Dana Sherrod (17:42):
yeah, the gas lighting is real, you know,
yeah, you know, especially inmedical settings and just, I
mean, so many of us have theseexperiences where we're just
dismissed as if we don't knowwhat we're talking about. You
know, I a couple years ago, hada pneumonia, and I had been
(18:05):
going into the doctor and went,finally, went to the emergency
room. I told them my symptoms,all of which were classic
markers for pneumonia. And, youknow, they he just sent me home,
like, oh, just, you know, takethem over the counters. I had to
really push and advocate to havea chest X ray, you know, I said,
I really need to have a chest Xray. And as they looked at it,
(18:29):
and it's like, oh my goodness,you do have pneumonia. I know, I
told you, you know, so, but wewe shouldn't even it shouldn't
and and the thing that stuck outto me was the doctor told me,
when you don't look sick, sokind of like you you don't look
sick. I'm like, what does thatmean? You know,
Angela Harris (18:52):
it's nuanced. It looks different for everyone.
Dana Sherrod (18:55):
Absolutely like, I'm not going to be pale, you
know, I'm a proud chocolatesister, so I'm not going to be
pale. So, you know, it's thesetypes of things that, you know,
we are just constantly upagainst when we're seeking care,
you know, in in the medicalsystem, and we have to do
(19:18):
better.
Angela Harris (19:22):
Yeah, one of the things that I like to highlight
on this show is definitely theimportance of culturally
competent care. So can youexplain to the listeners what
that looks like for blackmothers?
Dana Sherrod (19:33):
Ooh, it's a wonderful question. I love this
question because it allows us tobe imaginative, and not that it
doesn't exist, but I think it'sgives us an opportunity to
imagine how hair can beexpanded. So we have some
amazing black midwives, I'llstart there, who really up. Hold
(20:00):
and are, in many ways, just thebeacon of of what I would
consider to be culturallycongruent care. You know, I
think sometimes people don'tremember that midwives can do so
much more than just, you know,just provide, just catch babies.
You know, they can provide somany additional like
(20:22):
Gynecological Services, butstarting there, being able to
have a provider who honors, sortof seeing you as a whole person
versus just sort of a number,someone that they kind of got to
get through, but spending thetime with you the level of care
and concern for you know you andyour the rest of your family,
(20:45):
even. So, I think the midwiferymodel of care for one is
something we know is just a realgame changer in a lot of ways. I
I personally always wish that Iwas able to receive midwifery
care during during my ownexperiences. But to start there,
(21:08):
I also think having as an addedlayer of support and is to
really have a doula, is to havea doula who can be there
alongside you as part of thecare team. And while you know,
they're clinical providers, theyare incredible support people
(21:30):
who just, you know, add anadditional layer of, like I
said, support, really providingthat wrap around wrap around
support. So I think building acare team predominant, ideally,
who are black people who can,you know, really come alongside
and support before pregnancy,during pregnancy, after
(21:54):
pregnancy is a is an incrediblegame changer, and it's certainly
supported by the research.
Angela Harris (22:05):
I want to unpack that a little bit, because I
heard you talk about the midwifeand a doula, and for the
listeners who might not befamiliar, can you explain the
difference between the two?
Dana Sherrod (22:15):
Yeah, so a midwife is a licensed provider who can
actually not only deliverbabies, I think that is first
and foremost, one of the the keydifferentiators. They are
licensed to provide care andsupport, so they are able to
(22:37):
actually legally deliver,deliver babies, provide a range
of other services. Um, whereas adoula, you know, legally, is not
permitted to deliver or catchbabies. I mean, I think there
are many that do sort of on awhim, but that's not their
primary function. They're reallythere to come along and be a
(23:00):
labor support person, a supportperson even in the postpartum
period. So they can encourage,you know, the parents, birthing
parents, you know, providedifferent comfort measures
during you know, labor anddelivery process, provide some
education even in the prenatalperiod or postpartum period, but
(23:25):
again, their function is reallyto be there as the support,
whereas the midwife is reallyactually a provider, so somebody
who actually can provide canprovide care.
Angela Harris (23:37):
Now are these services typically covered by
insurance?
Dana Sherrod (23:42):
So in California, we were pretty fortunate. And we
for those who have Medi Cal,which is California's version of
Medicaid, we do people are ableto receive doula services. And
not only MediCal expansion, someaning that folks can be
(24:05):
covered 12 months up to 12months postpartum, you can also
receive a doula. And now doulasare a covered benefit under Medi
Cal, which is a huge stepforward. Um, I think one of the
things that my team is trying totrying to work on is actually
being able to expand access tomidwifery care and midwifery
(24:26):
services. You know, a lot of alot of folks are paying out of
pocket for midwifery care, whichyou know can be cost
prohibitive. It can beespecially if you're thinking
about, you know, out of hospitalbirths, meaning like a birth at
home or or a birthing at a birthcenter. You know if, if you
(24:47):
don't have coverage for that,you're paying out of pocket,
which can be several $1,000 andso fortunately, there's been
many different programs thathave come online. If you will,
that offer or really help tosupport people in covering the
costs of receiving midwiferycare. And so I think some things
(25:11):
like that are very helpful. Wewant to see it expand, though,
so that more people have accessto receiving the incredible care
that a lot of our midwives areproviding,
Angela Harris (25:22):
well, that's amazing that California is so
progressive and providing thoseservices. Yeah,
Dana Sherrod (25:29):
it's, it's really, it's an exciting change, and we
want to see more people be ableto access and utilize those
benefits. And you know, it's ittakes time to process, but we're
really excited to even just seethis as a as a new opportunity.
So,
Angela Harris (25:51):
but that's a great segue, because I'd love
for you to tell us more aboutyour role as the founder and
executive director of theCalifornia Coalition for black
birth justice.
Dana Sherrod (26:02):
So excited, so excited about the work that we
get to do. It really is it doesto me feel like such an amazing
privilege to be able to do thiswork that I'm deeply passionate
about at the coalition. Ourmission is to unify and to
strengthen the black birthJustice Movement here in
(26:25):
California. Because inCalifornia, again, you know we,
we really are a leader in thenation in terms of advancing,
excuse me, advancing birthequity and justice, particularly
among most impacted communities,particularly among black, black
women, and so we have, you know,a lot of of, I think,
(26:51):
legislative support, justsupport in many different ways
that other states don'tnecessarily have. And because of
that, there's so many wonderfulorganizations and initiatives
all across the state that arelooking at how we address this
issue, and what, what thecoalition does is we recognize
(27:12):
that there's sort of all thiswork, but it's very siloed. It's
happening sort of in differentways and different sort of
segments, and it's very justsort of fragmented. And our goal
is to really provide thestructure, and almost, if you
will, the backbone of what wereally call the movement. We
(27:34):
really do see this as a blackbirth justice movement. We want
to be supporting and encouragingfolks to work in unison with
shared goals, shared visions,that we're moving together. So
in support of that mission, wereally sort of think about our
(27:54):
work in three kind of key areas,which is being the statewide
connector and convener that'sbringing folks to the table,
making sure that we're sort ofmoving in one on one accord with
certain strategies and ideasthat are sort of helping us to
go in the same direction. Thesecond for us is really how we
(28:17):
support the black birth justiceworkforce. So we talked about,
you know, midwives and doulas,but that also includes, you
know, of course, very clinicalstaff physicians, nurses, but
also people who are notproviding direct care, but are
very much influential andinvolved in this movement. So
people like myself, who areadvocates, researchers, you
(28:41):
know, therapists, so many otherpeople who are really deeply
concerned about the health andwell being of black families and
so looking at how we supportfolks that are on the ground and
doing the work. And the thirdfor us, the third area of work
for us, is how we partner withhealthcare organizations to
(29:03):
improve their policies andpractices so that they are
providing more equitable care,and also even their sort of
policies and procedures areadvancing birth justice. So we
want to make sure that folks arelooking at how they're, you
know, sort of dismantling racismshowing up in their systems. So
(29:27):
there's a lot of work, a lot ofwork, but, you know, we are so
fortunate, and we're verypassionate that, you know,
change is possible, and we'vealready seen someone smaller
scales, and we're just excitedto see the work expand and
continue?
Angela Harris (29:44):
Well, if my research is correct, the black
population in California isabout 6% so I'm curious how you
navigate the challenges of beingthat convener and connector
across such a unified movementin a large state as as
California. So.
Dana Sherrod (30:00):
Yes, we are. Our numbers in California are very
small, and they're dwindling.You know, we seen so many, I
think, black families who havebeen pushed out of California
because of the cost and so manyother things. And it's
difficult, you know, because oneof the challenges we face, and
(30:25):
one of the sort of key areas ofpushback that we encounter is,
you know, why should we do allof this work and focus on such a
small subset of the population,you know, shouldn't we look at,
you know, other you know, racialand ethnic groups that have much
higher numbers. But for us, it'sreally important to a remind
(30:48):
folks, particularly as we workwith our hospital partners and
and folks that are very used tolooking at the research, we have
to remind people a that theseare actual people. These are
real numbers. These aren't justsort of figures on a paper.
These represent real lives. Butalso, we have to remind people
(31:09):
that even though BlackCalifornians are just a small
percentage of the population, weare experiencing the highest
rates of harm. And so when wehave to look at sort of where to
focus the lens, you typicallyshould be looking at those who
(31:31):
are being most impacted first.And so when we look at things
like, you know, not, of course,the maternal and infant health
outcomes. We look at thoserates, and when we see that our
rates of, you know, death, neardeath, are disproportionate to
the population size, that's ared flag. And that means that we
(31:54):
have work to do there. Samething with, you know, we can
look at, you know, homelessness,we can look at honestly, a range
of different measures acrossCalifornia, and unfortunately,
we see that black, black peopleare faring worse on many
different indicators. That tellsus that something is happening,
that we need to pay attentionand that we need to give
(32:16):
coordinated, dedicated effort toaddressing those who are being
most impacted, most harmed,because what then happens is
often when we improve things forthe most harmed or most impacted
groups. In this case, we'retalking about black people, we
see things improve for otherother groups, you know? So it's
(32:39):
not like, Oh, we're only goingto do this and it only helps. It
helps everybody. So that isreally trying to help people
understand that this isn't, thisdoesn't mean that, you know,
we're forgetting about everybodyelse. This means that, no, we
start with those who are beingmost impacted, and that that has
(33:01):
a trickle outward effect, if youwill, and is really actually
good for everyone.
Angela Harris (33:08):
I love that you said that, because it really is
about the intersectionality ofthe black woman experience,
where we're black, but we alsowomen. And so, like you said,
the same data, research findingscan be applied to women of all
races, yeah,
Dana Sherrod (33:24):
you know, especially when we think about,
for example, different carepractices in hospital setting,
you know, you don't obviouslyjust do one thing. Let's say, if
we're talking about, you know,hemorrhage, for example, that
doesn't mean that you're onlygoing to do certain certain
things for black people. Itmeans that you're improving
(33:45):
across the board. So, you know,I think people just have to be
open to the idea that we do haveto think about improvements for
specific population groups forspecific communities first, and
that ultimately is beneficialfor everyone.
Angela Harris (34:09):
I think this goes back to the fear people think
that they're losing something byfocusing on another area,
Dana Sherrod (34:16):
absolutely. And the fear is real. You know, the
fear is real in terms of how,how folks you know, respond to
the work, and this fear of, yes,fear of losing something, when
really it should be that we'regaining something. You know,
(34:37):
we're gaining, we're we'regaining resources, more
knowledge,
Angela Harris (34:42):
more support.
Dana Sherrod (34:43):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Angela Harris (34:49):
I know you have an exciting event coming up, and
your organization is honoringyour advisory board as black
birth equity heroes andlaunching a day of action. And
can you tell us what thisinitiative is about and how
people can support,
Dana Sherrod (35:05):
yeah, we, you know, we really are excited
about just the work of so manydifferent advocates across the
state. We are so blessed andhonestly, very fortunate to be
able to work with someincredible strategic statewide
advisors, who, in and of theirown right, are doing amazing
(35:27):
work in the black maternal andinfant health space. They have
been championing culturallycongruent care and creating
innovative models and producingresearch that has really shifted
a lot of understandings in thefield. And so for us, it's
(35:49):
really thinking about how wehonor the people who are already
in the work, who've been in thework, who are doing the work,
and really recognizing, you knowwhat we say, you know, giving
people their flowers whilethey're while they're here,
right? And so I think that'sreally what this is about. And
we just want it to be anopportunity for us to a raise
(36:14):
the visibility of the workthat's going on that's happening
across the state, because itgives us hope. It gives all of
us the hope that we need, thatthings can change and that they
are going to change, but alsoreally just recognizing the
individuals as well. So youknow, we want folks to be able
(36:36):
to share with us, particularlythrough social media. We want
people to be spotlighted. Wewant people to share with us the
work of other incredible, youknow, just leaders and champions
in this space. And so we willcertainly be engaging mostly
(36:57):
through Instagram to look at howwe actually celebrate folks. So
we're really excited. Well,
Angela Harris (37:05):
that's incredible, and it's definitely
important, because you said thatyou're a connector and a
convener, convener across theentire state of California. So
it definitely takes many handsto do this work. So it's just
amazing that you are honoringthese individuals Absolutely,
Dana Sherrod (37:21):
and they they deserve so much more. You know,
they deserve all the things.There's so many people do work
behind the scenes that folks maynever know or recognize, but
their their work makes such atremendous impact. I think about
those who have been doing anincredible job of lifting up and
(37:46):
championing legislation, oursisters that, for example, Black
Women for Wellness and BlackWomen for Wellness action
project they've done, they'vereally, honestly been on the
front lines of leading a lot ofthe legislation in California
that has given us so manyimprovements that we see so, you
(38:07):
know, they're just and there'sjust countless others who are
serving our families, who areloving on our families, who are
pushing for change in systems.And there's just never enough,
you know, enough gratitude, Ithink, to give all of these
incredible leaders.
Angela Harris (38:25):
Wow, it takes a village to
Dana Sherrod (38:29):
raise it does.
Angela Harris (38:32):
Well. Now we're coming off of an election, and
we have a new presidentialadministration, administration,
and I'm curious what concerns orhope you have as it relates to
policies that might affect blackmaternal health?
Dana Sherrod (38:47):
Yeah, you know, I think we, we are experiencing a
lot of unknowns right now. Ofcourse, I think we have a lot of
fear in our communities, forwhat is this going to mean for
for us as individuals, for ourfamilies, for the work you know,
(39:09):
myself and my team, we aredeeply committed that, you know,
the work continues. The work hasto continue, and so, you know,
we prepare as much as possible,and we just continue, you know,
we we square our shoulders 10toes down, we continue to link
(39:31):
arms and march forward. And Ithink that, you know, we're
really fortunate again. We'revery fortunate in California
that we do have a lot of leadersin place who are who are devoted
and committed and want to seebetter outcomes for,
particularly for black moms andfor black babies, but for for
(39:54):
all of our all of our families,you know, all of all of our
families need to be doingbetter. And so, you know, I
think we have a real opportunityto continue to champion the
work. And you know what, whatthat looks like, may expand. It
may grow. You know the how partof it may expand and grow, but
(40:19):
the core mission is the same.You know, we are still committed
to supporting Black birth equityand justice. Sounds
Angela Harris (40:33):
like California is certainly a leader in this
area for any listeners or allieswho might be called to act. What
can they do to get involved on anational level?
Dana Sherrod (40:44):
Absolutely, it's a great question, because every
state is so different.Obviously, we know there's
different political landscapesand wills. I like to encourage
people to really understandwhat's happening in their state.
There are in, you know, justabout every state, well, I'll
(41:06):
say many states that are have atleast some sizable population of
black people. There tends to besome organizations that are
doing great work. You know,we've got incredible orgs in the
South, in the northeast, youknow that are that are standing
in the gap for families who arejust doing great work. So I tend
(41:28):
to encourage people to check outthe organizations specifically
in their state, but also some ofthe national organizations,
black mamas matter Alliance is agreat place to start and of
course, and to understand theirwork and who their partners are,
because there are ways forpeople to get involved, you
(41:50):
know, particularly in their intheir region, whether that's in
their city, in their county, andthey're in their state, that can
look certainly first andforemost, like donating
supporting. You know, theorganizations who are doing the
work, especially as as folks,are projecting that things may
shift and get get tighter interms of funding. So providing
(42:14):
financial support, you know,engaging with some of the local
meetings or engaging their localelected officials and really
lifting this issue up there,supporting policy that is, you
know, in support of advancing,you know, birth, equity and
justice. So there's a lot ofways that I think people can
(42:38):
first build their knowledge andunderstanding of what's
happening where they live theclosest to home, and then
learning about the folks who areon the ground doing the work and
how they can actually supportthem directly.
Angela Harris (42:54):
What do you envision for the future of black
maternal health? If you had amagic wand, it can change one
thing overnight, what would it
Dana Sherrod (43:07):
be? There's so much I would love to There's so
much I would love to change, butI think what I would love to see
is that people have choice interms of how, you know, having a
(43:27):
vision for how they want tobring their children into the
world, and that we have systemsand structures in place to
support that. So whether theywant to, you know, have their
baby at home with a midwife,whether they choose to have
their baby in a hospital, thatfolks would have the safety, not
(43:51):
only just sort of the physicalsafety, but like the cultural
Safety, the psychologicalsafety, the fear, the utmost
care and truly the love I wouldI would want for every person to
know that you know, regardlessof where, where or how or with
(44:13):
whom they choose to have theirbabies, that they would have the
support, that they would have,the resource that they would
have the wraparound servicesthat you need and not be
forgotten about after the babycomes. You know that they would
have, yeah, just have all of thethings that they need to have,
the joyous, healthy births thatwe will be able to raise our
(44:37):
children in communities that youknow, that are that are safe,
that are well resourced, youknow, all of the things I think
about, all the sort of tenantsof reproductive justice. But I
really, just, I really wouldlove to see us usher in a new
way of of being when we talkabout. About birthing and
(45:02):
parenting, and that vision is somuch more expansive than just
when we have the baby. You know,it goes beyond that, I think,
over their lives, over ourlives. But for me, at its core
is that people would have thechoice, and that wherever and
however they choose to do it,that they know they'll be safe,
(45:25):
they'll be loved, they'll betaken care of, that they'll be
seen. And I really feel hopeful.I really feel hopeful for that.
Angela Harris (45:37):
I love that having a vision of people having
a choice being saved, loved andsupported in their journey.
Dana Sherrod (45:45):
Absolutely, I think it's what we all you know,
it's what we all want in someform or fashion.
Angela Harris (45:56):
Oh, Dana, before we wrap up, I have one final
question, what do you do torecharge when you aren't
fearlessly leading?
Dana Sherrod (46:05):
I love this question. I love it so much
because, you know, this work isheavy. It's very hard as it's,
it's, it's deeply, as Imentioned, it's deeply personal.
You know, it's not likesomething we just clock in and
out of and we're done for thedays. These are real lives. So I
(46:28):
it's been a journey for me tolearn a how to turn off and shut
down, and some of the ways thatI do that is through creativity
I have within the last year,started playing guitar.
Angela Harris (46:48):
I was gonna ask you about that.
Dana Sherrod (46:51):
So I do really. I mean, I love it so much I sing.
And so being able to play musicand sing music is just, it just
restores me to my board. So Ireally love music. I love
(47:12):
creating. So painting, I makebeaded jewelry. And you know,
the things that just allow me toget creative juices flowing. So
those things really helped me. Ialso love to sleep. I'm a
Napper. I love taking naps. Ialso encourage my team, you
(47:33):
know, sometimes to go lay downand take a short nap during the
day, you know, recharge. We arenot machines. You know, Trisha,
Hersey, Hersey from the napministry, you know, is been such
a champion for this, toencourage folks to go lay down,
you know, take a nap, that we'renot machines, that we're not
going to give our bodies to thesystem and and I really tried
(47:56):
to, really try to embody that.So, yeah, go lay down. So I do
love to go take a nap.
Angela Harris (48:06):
That should be on a t shirt. Go lay go lay down.
So I'm curious. I'm curious,When is the concert, the the
singing and the guitar concert?
Dana Sherrod (48:20):
Well, I'm hoping I can. I'm hoping I can. I'm
hoping to certainly get betterat at my guitar skills. I feel
like I'm, you know, beginner,intermediate. It's alright, but,
yeah, I'm mostly sing right now.I mostly sing in the church, and
just use my gift to honor Godand for allowing me to do this
(48:45):
work and for all the things thathe is he has given. So that is
primarily where I sing, where myheart lies, and where, you know,
I hope to be able to writemusic, but that's down the road
that's amazing. Yeah,
Angela Harris (49:04):
well, Vader, you've given us so much to think
about today. How can ourlisteners stay connected with
you in the work that you'redoing?
Unknown (49:11):
We are on social media so folks can connect with us on
Instagram, you know, YouTube,all those sort of social
channels @cablackbirthjustice.You can also follow us on our
website atwww.cablackbirthjustice.com, we
(49:32):
have a sign up for our ournewsletter, so as opportunities
come up, different things are onthe horizon. That's a good way
for people to stay in the loopand certainly to be able to
volunteer, to to donate. I, I,you know, encourage people to
(49:52):
put some skin in the game. Youknow, put put some skin in the
game through our dollars,through our resources. And so we
have opportunities. Communitiesto donate online, and certainly,
just to continue to stay stayconnected with us. Those are
really the best ways, and we'reexcited to connect with so many
different folks. So we love welove it. Then
Angela Harris (50:17):
I just want to say thank you for the work that
you're doing to protect anduplift black mothers and babies,
because your voice is certainlyneeded now more than ever.
Dana Sherrod (50:27):
Thank you so much. I really do appreciate it. I
appreciate just the time andbeing able to share and just you
know always, I always like toleave an encouragement for
listeners, particularly forblack women, listeners that you
know, there is a entire network,a whole community of people who
(50:50):
you know, who love you deeplyand who see you, who want to
support you, who are dedicatingtheir life in their life's work,
so that you and your family canthrive that you know, we don't.
We don't want people to move infear. We don't want people to be
fearful of of starting families,creating families, but to know
(51:14):
that, yeah, there's a wholethere's a whole crew across the
country that is doing all theycan so that you you can, yeah,
have the family and the birthand all the things that you
desire, so no fear here.
Angela Harris (51:34):
Wow, that's powerful. Thank you for those
uplifting words.
Dana Sherrod (51:38):
Thank you so much, Angela, it's been such a
privilege to have the timetogether.
Angela Harris (51:42):
You're very welcome and to our listeners,
thank you for tuning in today.If you enjoyed this episode,
please share it with someone whoneeds to hear it. Let's continue
amplifying these criticalconversations. Hey, fearless
leaders, are you ready to alignyour career with your purpose?
(52:04):
If you've reached a point inyour career where growth isn't
just about titles and paychecks,but about making a real impact,
it's time to dig deeper. Imaginehaving a career that doesn't
just look successful on paper,but feels fulfilling and aligned
with your personal mission. As acertified coach with over 20
(52:27):
years in corporate as a blackwoman in tech, I know firsthand
the unique obstacles we face andthe power that comes from
leading with confidence andpurpose. During our work
together, we'll define yourpersonal values and align them
with your career goals, addressself doubt and strengthen your
(52:48):
self belief and build the toolsyou need to lead authentically
and confidently. Let's worktogether to redefine success on
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you're ready to get started,visit angelavharris.com today to
(53:11):
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Thank you for listening to theflow podcast. As we wrap up
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(53:36):
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(54:00):
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own way. You.
Welcome to the F.L.O.W. podcast, fearlessly
leading our way. This podcast isa space dedicated to
spotlighting the unfilteredvoices of black women in their
unique leadership journeys. I amyour host, Angela V. Harris, I'm
(00:26):
an award winning coach, speaker,author and champion from black
women. Make sure you like andsubscribe to this podcast to
stay connected to ourconversation, let's get ready to
Hey, fearless leaders, welcomeback to another episode of the
flow.
(00:57):
flow podcast. This episode, Isit down with Dana Sherrod ,
founder and executive directorof the California Coalition for
black birth justice. As a child,Dana had dreams of being a
taxicab driver or a nurse.Today, Dana is a powerhouse
(01:19):
advocate for equity and justicein healthcare. Her personal
journey includes a traumaticlabor and delivery experience
which has profoundly influencedher commitment to improving
maternal health outcomes forblack women when she's not
advocating for change, Danafinds joy in singing and playing
the guitar. Can't wait for youto meet, Dana. Let's get in to
(01:44):
today's episode. Welcome to theshow, Dana. I'm so honored to
have you here today.
Dana Sherrod (01:51):
Thank you so much. I'm so glad to have the time to
spend together. Thanks forhaving me.
Angela Harris (01:58):
Well. Read your bio, Dana, and you have such a
long list of accomplishments,and it just screams advocate and
servant leader. I'm curious,what kind of life did you
envision for yourself when youwere a young girl growing up in
Los Angeles?
Dana Sherrod (02:14):
It's a fun question, because I feel like
myself, like many other peoplesort of inadvertently fell into
this work. I, you know, my therunning joke in my family is
that while my parents werepaying for me to go to private
school, I told them I wanted tobe a cab driver, which, you
(02:38):
know, in many ways I probably amnow with my children, but, and,
but I wasn't sure, sort of, froman early age what I wanted to
do. I knew that I had a desire,I think, really a God given
desire, to serve people. One ofmy early memories around sort of
(03:00):
justice oriented work was, youknow, being aware of
homelessness, maybe around, youknow, eight, seven or eight, and
just being so confused. And Iasked my parents, you know, why
can't we put everyone in ahouse? Why can't we just give
everyone a home? And it was sobaffling to me that we had
(03:22):
people who were unhoused. And,you know, I was always sort of
the kid in the neighborhood whowas like, come to my house,
we'll feed you, andvolunteering, you know, my
parents groceries. And so Ithink I've just always had a
heart for people, for servingpeople and loving people, and
it's come full circle into mywork. I used to think I wanted
(03:46):
to be as an adult, I used tothink I wanted to be a nurse,
because a lot of my family arenurses, and I learned very
quickly that I have a very weakstomach, and nursing was out for
me, and I was very fortunate tofind public health and
specifically black maternalhealth.
Angela Harris (04:11):
So I heard you say you went from wanting to be
a cab driver to wanting to be anurse, and that didn't work out
for you, who were some of yourrole models as a child.
Dana Sherrod (04:22):
I you know, I, I love to say that I just have so
many amazing women, strong womenleaders in my family, and they
were, and continue to be, someof my earliest role models, you
know, my my mom, my aunts, mysister, who is older than me,
(04:45):
but we are very close there,really, I think the ones that
shaped a lot of who I am, how Isee the world, even, you know,
my maternal grandmother, whopassed when I was about two, so
I didn't, you know, obviously,really get to know her. And and
remember her, but so much of herinfluence, you know, shows up
through my mother and my auntand people in my life. And so,
(05:08):
you know, I, even, you know,give her a lot of honor and
credit, because in a lot ofways, she has also shaped the
women who have shaped me. Soit's, for me, been very close to
home more before it's been sortof external, positive
influences.
Angela Harris (05:28):
I love what you just said about your
grandmother, because I just sawa meme recently, and I was
talking about the concept ofancestral gifts, and sometimes
our ancestors, they weren't inthe time and place where they
could exercise those gifts. Butobviously they're passed down to
us, and you know, we are in thetime and place that we can
actually utilize those gifts. Sothat just really stood out to me
(05:49):
when you said that. I
Dana Sherrod (05:50):
know it's so amazing, you know how how that
works. I remember being aroundmaybe 19 or 20, and my mom just
used to always say, Oh, youremind me so much of my mother.
Your mannerisms, like your theway that you speak, and like
just so many things about youremind me of her, which is wild,
(06:12):
because I, you know, was achild. So just goes to show the
influence of, yeah, of of thosewho've come before us, in a lot
of ways,
Angela Harris (06:22):
that's so powerful. And I didn't know my
paternal grandparents, but Ihave pictures of them, but I'm
very fortunate in that Imaintained the house that I live
in that grew up in as a child.They purchased in 1946 and after
my father passed away, I'vemaintained that house. So I
still have that house today, andI've moved back in so, so
grateful for the legacy thatthey established for me well
(06:46):
before they even knew I wasgoing to be on this
Dana Sherrod (06:49):
earth. That's amazing. Oh, and what a blessing
to be able to have, you know, ahome and property where just,
you know, I can imagine, I canonly imagine, you know, all the
love and the hope and theprayers that have been poured
in, yes, yeah, that you get toreap the benefits of that,
that's amazing.
Angela Harris (07:08):
I think about that a lot. So, like I said,
what you said about yourgrandmother, and you know, you
really didn't know them. I justwonder what traits that I carry,
that my grandparents have.
Dana Sherrod (07:18):
Mm, hmm, absolutely.
Angela Harris (07:23):
Well, I know your career spans from mental health
advocacy to land use policy, andthere you're focused on maternal
health, what motivated you tostart taking a stand?
Dana Sherrod (07:36):
It's a great question. I i think you know
from, for me, I come to thiswork with a lot of personal
experience. I think first andforemost, it stems from, you
know, not only a love for forpeople and a heart for people,
but specifically, even further,a love and a heart for black
(07:57):
people in particular. You know,I think it's, it is the the
legacy of how we've been treatedin this country that I like to
say, it's just sort of embeddedin my DNA, and, you know, and
and coupled with my ownexperiences, you know, that
(08:18):
really drive me. I have twowonderful daughters. I had two
great pregnancies, but two verytraumatic labor and delivery
experiences with my with mysecond in particular, my
daughter, who's now six, I hadwhat we call a maternal near
(08:38):
miss, or near death. And whatthat means is, you know,
somebody who has survivedmaternal complications, you
know, either during labor anddelivery or in the postpartum
period. And near misses are somuch more frequent than
obviously maternal deaths. Butyou know, for for me, it was
(09:02):
just being smack up againsteverything that we talk about.
You know, from being dismissed,not listened to. You know, my
pain not being taken seriously,which resulted in an emergency
situation, um, and reallyneeding a C section under
general anesthesia. Normally,when people have C sections, you
(09:25):
know you're awake, but becauseof the urgent situation that
came up, I was under anesthesia,which means I wasn't awake or
present for the birth of mysecond child. My husband was not
allowed into the operating room,so no one was there while she
was born, except the medicalteam. And, you know, I had to be
(09:46):
readmitted 10 days postpartumfor an infection which also
disrupts how you can bond and,and, you know, I was
breastfeeding and, and so lotsof challenges. That I think, you
know, sometimes peopleintellectualize that going
through those experiences giveyou, gives you really a
(10:08):
different lens and a differentdrive to make real, lasting
change. So for me, you know,it's really about, how do I help
make sure that not one moreperson, not one more woman, in
general, but especially not onemore black woman, has to face a
lot of these harms that we're upagainst, particularly in the
(10:29):
medical system,
Angela Harris (10:33):
that is certainly traumatic, I mean, to have to be
the C section under anesthesiaand have to be readmitted to the
hospital, and, like you said,not have that opportunity to
fully bond with your baby. Yeah,
Dana Sherrod (10:46):
absolutely, it's, you know, it's a difficult
thing, and, and unfortunately, Iwas just reading a study the
other day about, you know, forfolks who have experienced a
near miss, or, you know, whatcould have potentially resulted
in death. You know, there reallyisn't much support for when you
(11:08):
go through something like that.We have so many sisters who are
walking around and carrying, youknow, all of this trauma in
their bodies and their you know,their minds and their hearts.
And we're just sort of like,well, we survived, so that's
great, but that's a very lowbar, you know, like, we should
have a lot higher standards forwhat we expect when we are
(11:32):
bringing in new life into theworld. So that really motivates
me a lot.
Angela Harris (11:40):
And what you said about the trauma in the body
like we don't recognize, youknow, what our bodies hold on
to, and in some instances, wepass that trauma down to our
children, generationally.
Dana Sherrod (11:52):
Absolutely, I
Angela Harris (11:55):
want to dig a little bit deeper. So According
to research from the Centers forDisease Control, I know black
women are three times morelikely to die from pregnancy
related causes than white women.I would love to hear your
insights into why thesedisparities exist and what
systemic factors are at play.
Dana Sherrod (12:16):
Yeah. Well, I think it's always really
important to you know, startwith sort of looking at how
black women and black bodieshave been treated, you know, in
the United States since we werebrought to this country over 400
years ago. You know, we knowthat black women, in particular,
particularly those who wereenslaved, you know, were
(12:39):
experimented on, and that thatunfortunate thread of
experimentation has continued,you know, even into contemporary
or modern times. You know, wecan look at forced
sterilizations. We can look at,you know, sort of controlling a
lot of black women'sreproductive autonomy and so
(13:02):
many, I think, factors that havejust been embedded into the way
that we think about black womenand black black women's bodies,
that we are somehow moretolerant or resistant to pain,
which we know is a myth, butunfortunately is still held As
as truth, you know that we havethicker skin, and all of these
(13:25):
things you know, show up when,maybe sometimes not overtly, but
can also show very covertly,when things like, you know, we
are being dismissed, or whenwe're saying that something is
is not Feeling right, and we'rejust disregarded as as if we
don't know about our own bodies.Yeah, and so really, it's been
(13:48):
sort of this, this legacy overgenerations about the beliefs
that are held about black womenand black bodies. So that's,
that's part. But I also think,you know, there's, we can look
at a lot of the the systemicfactors, you know, from just
(14:09):
physical environment. We canlook at, you know, so many of
the different, what we call thesocial drivers of health, things
that typically are protectivefactors for us. So things like
education, income levels,marital status. I mean, these
are all things in public healththat we sort of look at as
markers of being protectivefactors and and in many ways,
(14:33):
they can be. But for blackwomen, what we know in the
research is that they're notthese factors aren't as
protective for us and again, youknow, to me, it's always
important to look at rootcauses. We know that black
people have differences in justvarious things that help us
(14:55):
support our health and wellbeing. We can look back at, you
know, policy. And regulationsthat have resulted in
inequitable distribution ofresources and access to
resources, and so it can getvery deep when we talk about
sort of the impact of racismthat has really resulted in a
(15:19):
lot of these harms. But oneother aspect that I would add,
and this is such a it's such acomplex and varied issue, you
know, it's, it's, it's, it'smultifaceted in so many ways.
And so sometimes when peoplesay, oh, you know, this is the
solution, I'm like, well, well,we got it. We got to tackle this
(15:42):
from a lot of different ways,because it is very multifaceted.
One more sort of element that Iwould add is that, you know,
black women in particular, thatwe experiencing, we experience
what we call the weatheringeffect. So our bodies are aging,
you know, faster as a result ofreally racialized living in a
(16:07):
racialized society. So that wearand tear on the body over years
of dealing with racism, years ofdealing with, you know,
oppression at a structurallevel, it wears our bodies down,
and that shows up with how webirth, how we, you know, live,
and really looking across ourentire lives. So it's very, very
(16:32):
multifaceted issue.
Angela Harris (16:38):
You touched on so many things with that, and I
just want to go back to what yousaid about how oftentimes black
women are dismissed. And I knowwe're talking about black
maternal health, but I also havemy own experience with having my
medical concerns dismissed. Iremember I was still working in
corporate America, and I didn'tknow it at the time, but I was
(16:58):
dealing with work related PTSDand depression, depression and
depression and anxiety. And Iwent to a doctor who was a white
man. My my primary doctor was onvacation, and she had a someone
filling in for her, and hehappened to be a white male. And
I'm going through all thesymptoms that I was
(17:19):
experiencing, heartpalpitations, trouble sleeping,
and this was actually post acancer diagnosis as well. So I'm
going through all the issuesthat I'm experiencing, and I
guess because I didn't look acertain way, he didn't take my
concerns seriously, and heliterally told me to go home and
do breathing exercises. You Oh
Dana Sherrod (17:42):
yeah, the gas lighting is real, you know,
yeah, you know, especially inmedical settings and just, I
mean, so many of us have theseexperiences where we're just
dismissed as if we don't knowwhat we're talking about. You
know, I a couple years ago, hada pneumonia, and I had been
(18:05):
going into the doctor and went,finally, went to the emergency
room. I told them my symptoms,all of which were classic
markers for pneumonia. And, youknow, they he just sent me home,
like, oh, just, you know, takethem over the counters. I had to
really push and advocate to havea chest X ray, you know, I said,
I really need to have a chest Xray. And as they looked at it,
(18:29):
and it's like, oh my goodness,you do have pneumonia. I know, I
told you, you know, so, but wewe shouldn't even it shouldn't
and and the thing that stuck outto me was the doctor told me,
when you don't look sick, sokind of like you you don't look
sick. I'm like, what does thatmean? You know,
Angela Harris (18:52):
it's nuanced. It looks different for everyone.
Dana Sherrod (18:55):
Absolutely like, I'm not going to be pale, you
know, I'm a proud chocolatesister, so I'm not going to be
pale. So, you know, it's thesetypes of things that, you know,
we are just constantly upagainst when we're seeking care,
you know, in in the medicalsystem, and we have to do
(19:18):
better.
Angela Harris (19:22):
Yeah, one of the things that I like to highlight
on this show is definitely theimportance of culturally
competent care. So can youexplain to the listeners what
that looks like for blackmothers?
Dana Sherrod (19:33):
Ooh, it's a wonderful question. I love this
question because it allows us tobe imaginative, and not that it
doesn't exist, but I think it'sgives us an opportunity to
imagine how hair can beexpanded. So we have some
amazing black midwives, I'llstart there, who really up. Hold
(20:00):
and are, in many ways, just thebeacon of of what I would
consider to be culturallycongruent care. You know, I
think sometimes people don'tremember that midwives can do so
much more than just, you know,just provide, just catch babies.
You know, they can provide somany additional like
(20:22):
Gynecological Services, butstarting there, being able to
have a provider who honors, sortof seeing you as a whole person
versus just sort of a number,someone that they kind of got to
get through, but spending thetime with you the level of care
and concern for you know you andyour the rest of your family,
(20:45):
even. So, I think the midwiferymodel of care for one is
something we know is just a realgame changer in a lot of ways. I
I personally always wish that Iwas able to receive midwifery
care during during my ownexperiences. But to start there,
(21:08):
I also think having as an addedlayer of support and is to
really have a doula, is to havea doula who can be there
alongside you as part of thecare team. And while you know,
they're clinical providers, theyare incredible support people
(21:30):
who just, you know, add anadditional layer of, like I
said, support, really providingthat wrap around wrap around
support. So I think building acare team predominant, ideally,
who are black people who can,you know, really come alongside
and support before pregnancy,during pregnancy, after
(21:54):
pregnancy is a is an incrediblegame changer, and it's certainly
supported by the research.
Angela Harris (22:05):
I want to unpack that a little bit, because I
heard you talk about the midwifeand a doula, and for the
listeners who might not befamiliar, can you explain the
difference between the two?
Dana Sherrod (22:15):
Yeah, so a midwife is a licensed provider who can
actually not only deliverbabies, I think that is first
and foremost, one of the the keydifferentiators. They are
licensed to provide care andsupport, so they are able to
(22:37):
actually legally deliver,deliver babies, provide a range
of other services. Um, whereas adoula, you know, legally, is not
permitted to deliver or catchbabies. I mean, I think there
are many that do sort of on awhim, but that's not their
primary function. They're reallythere to come along and be a
(23:00):
labor support person, a supportperson even in the postpartum
period. So they can encourage,you know, the parents, birthing
parents, you know, providedifferent comfort measures
during you know, labor anddelivery process, provide some
education even in the prenatalperiod or postpartum period, but
(23:25):
again, their function is reallyto be there as the support,
whereas the midwife is reallyactually a provider, so somebody
who actually can provide canprovide care.
Angela Harris (23:37):
Now are these services typically covered by
insurance?
Dana Sherrod (23:42):
So in California, we were pretty fortunate. And we
for those who have Medi Cal,which is California's version of
Medicaid, we do people are ableto receive doula services. And
not only MediCal expansion, someaning that folks can be
(24:05):
covered 12 months up to 12months postpartum, you can also
receive a doula. And now doulasare a covered benefit under Medi
Cal, which is a huge stepforward. Um, I think one of the
things that my team is trying totrying to work on is actually
being able to expand access tomidwifery care and midwifery
(24:26):
services. You know, a lot of alot of folks are paying out of
pocket for midwifery care, whichyou know can be cost
prohibitive. It can beespecially if you're thinking
about, you know, out of hospitalbirths, meaning like a birth at
home or or a birthing at a birthcenter. You know if, if you
(24:47):
don't have coverage for that,you're paying out of pocket,
which can be several $1,000 andso fortunately, there's been
many different programs thathave come online. If you will,
that offer or really help tosupport people in covering the
costs of receiving midwiferycare. And so I think some things
(25:11):
like that are very helpful. Wewant to see it expand, though,
so that more people have accessto receiving the incredible care
that a lot of our midwives areproviding,
Angela Harris (25:22):
well, that's amazing that California is so
progressive and providing thoseservices. Yeah,
Dana Sherrod (25:29):
it's, it's really, it's an exciting change, and we
want to see more people be ableto access and utilize those
benefits. And you know, it's ittakes time to process, but we're
really excited to even just seethis as a as a new opportunity.
So,
Angela Harris (25:51):
but that's a great segue, because I'd love
for you to tell us more aboutyour role as the founder and
executive director of theCalifornia Coalition for black
birth justice.
Dana Sherrod (26:02):
So excited, so excited about the work that we
get to do. It really is it doesto me feel like such an amazing
privilege to be able to do thiswork that I'm deeply passionate
about at the coalition. Ourmission is to unify and to
strengthen the black birthJustice Movement here in
(26:25):
California. Because inCalifornia, again, you know we,
we really are a leader in thenation in terms of advancing,
excuse me, advancing birthequity and justice, particularly
among most impacted communities,particularly among black, black
women, and so we have, you know,a lot of of, I think,
(26:51):
legislative support, justsupport in many different ways
that other states don'tnecessarily have. And because of
that, there's so many wonderfulorganizations and initiatives
all across the state that arelooking at how we address this
issue, and what, what thecoalition does is we recognize
(27:12):
that there's sort of all thiswork, but it's very siloed. It's
happening sort of in differentways and different sort of
segments, and it's very justsort of fragmented. And our goal
is to really provide thestructure, and almost, if you
will, the backbone of what wereally call the movement. We
(27:34):
really do see this as a blackbirth justice movement. We want
to be supporting and encouragingfolks to work in unison with
shared goals, shared visions,that we're moving together. So
in support of that mission, wereally sort of think about our
(27:54):
work in three kind of key areas,which is being the statewide
connector and convener that'sbringing folks to the table,
making sure that we're sort ofmoving in one on one accord with
certain strategies and ideasthat are sort of helping us to
go in the same direction. Thesecond for us is really how we
(28:17):
support the black birth justiceworkforce. So we talked about,
you know, midwives and doulas,but that also includes, you
know, of course, very clinicalstaff physicians, nurses, but
also people who are notproviding direct care, but are
very much influential andinvolved in this movement. So
people like myself, who areadvocates, researchers, you
(28:41):
know, therapists, so many otherpeople who are really deeply
concerned about the health andwell being of black families and
so looking at how we supportfolks that are on the ground and
doing the work. And the thirdfor us, the third area of work
for us, is how we partner withhealthcare organizations to
(29:03):
improve their policies andpractices so that they are
providing more equitable care,and also even their sort of
policies and procedures areadvancing birth justice. So we
want to make sure that folks arelooking at how they're, you
know, sort of dismantling racismshowing up in their systems. So
(29:27):
there's a lot of work, a lot ofwork, but, you know, we are so
fortunate, and we're verypassionate that, you know,
change is possible, and we'vealready seen someone smaller
scales, and we're just excitedto see the work expand and
continue?
Angela Harris (29:44):
Well, if my research is correct, the black
population in California isabout 6% so I'm curious how you
navigate the challenges of beingthat convener and connector
across such a unified movementin a large state as as
California. So.
Dana Sherrod (30:00):
Yes, we are. Our numbers in California are very
small, and they're dwindling.You know, we seen so many, I
think, black families who havebeen pushed out of California
because of the cost and so manyother things. And it's
difficult, you know, because oneof the challenges we face, and
(30:25):
one of the sort of key areas ofpushback that we encounter is,
you know, why should we do allof this work and focus on such a
small subset of the population,you know, shouldn't we look at,
you know, other you know, racialand ethnic groups that have much
higher numbers. But for us, it'sreally important to a remind
(30:48):
folks, particularly as we workwith our hospital partners and
and folks that are very used tolooking at the research, we have
to remind people a that theseare actual people. These are
real numbers. These aren't justsort of figures on a paper.
These represent real lives. Butalso, we have to remind people
(31:09):
that even though BlackCalifornians are just a small
percentage of the population, weare experiencing the highest
rates of harm. And so when wehave to look at sort of where to
focus the lens, you typicallyshould be looking at those who
(31:31):
are being most impacted first.And so when we look at things
like, you know, not, of course,the maternal and infant health
outcomes. We look at thoserates, and when we see that our
rates of, you know, death, neardeath, are disproportionate to
the population size, that's ared flag. And that means that we
(31:54):
have work to do there. Samething with, you know, we can
look at, you know, homelessness,we can look at honestly, a range
of different measures acrossCalifornia, and unfortunately,
we see that black, black peopleare faring worse on many
different indicators. That tellsus that something is happening,
that we need to pay attentionand that we need to give
(32:16):
coordinated, dedicated effort toaddressing those who are being
most impacted, most harmed,because what then happens is
often when we improve things forthe most harmed or most impacted
groups. In this case, we'retalking about black people, we
see things improve for otherother groups, you know? So it's
(32:39):
not like, Oh, we're only goingto do this and it only helps. It
helps everybody. So that isreally trying to help people
understand that this isn't, thisdoesn't mean that, you know,
we're forgetting about everybodyelse. This means that, no, we
start with those who are beingmost impacted, and that that has
(33:01):
a trickle outward effect, if youwill, and is really actually
good for everyone.
Angela Harris (33:08):
I love that you said that, because it really is
about the intersectionality ofthe black woman experience,
where we're black, but we alsowomen. And so, like you said,
the same data, research findingscan be applied to women of all
races, yeah,
Dana Sherrod (33:24):
you know, especially when we think about,
for example, different carepractices in hospital setting,
you know, you don't obviouslyjust do one thing. Let's say, if
we're talking about, you know,hemorrhage, for example, that
doesn't mean that you're onlygoing to do certain certain
things for black people. Itmeans that you're improving
(33:45):
across the board. So, you know,I think people just have to be
open to the idea that we do haveto think about improvements for
specific population groups forspecific communities first, and
that ultimately is beneficialfor everyone.
Angela Harris (34:09):
I think this goes back to the fear people think
that they're losing something byfocusing on another area,
Dana Sherrod (34:16):
absolutely. And the fear is real. You know, the
fear is real in terms of how,how folks you know, respond to
the work, and this fear of, yes,fear of losing something, when
really it should be that we'regaining something. You know,
(34:37):
we're gaining, we're we'regaining resources, more
knowledge,
Angela Harris (34:42):
more support.
Dana Sherrod (34:43):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Angela Harris (34:49):
I know you have an exciting event coming up, and
your organization is honoringyour advisory board as black
birth equity heroes andlaunching a day of action. And
can you tell us what thisinitiative is about and how
people can support,
Dana Sherrod (35:05):
yeah, we, you know, we really are excited
about just the work of so manydifferent advocates across the
state. We are so blessed andhonestly, very fortunate to be
able to work with someincredible strategic statewide
advisors, who, in and of theirown right, are doing amazing
(35:27):
work in the black maternal andinfant health space. They have
been championing culturallycongruent care and creating
innovative models and producingresearch that has really shifted
a lot of understandings in thefield. And so for us, it's
(35:49):
really thinking about how wehonor the people who are already
in the work, who've been in thework, who are doing the work,
and really recognizing, you knowwhat we say, you know, giving
people their flowers whilethey're while they're here,
right? And so I think that'sreally what this is about. And
we just want it to be anopportunity for us to a raise
(36:14):
the visibility of the workthat's going on that's happening
across the state, because itgives us hope. It gives all of
us the hope that we need, thatthings can change and that they
are going to change, but alsoreally just recognizing the
individuals as well. So youknow, we want folks to be able
(36:36):
to share with us, particularlythrough social media. We want
people to be spotlighted. Wewant people to share with us the
work of other incredible, youknow, just leaders and champions
in this space. And so we willcertainly be engaging mostly
(36:57):
through Instagram to look at howwe actually celebrate folks. So
we're really excited. Well,
Angela Harris (37:05):
that's incredible, and it's definitely
important, because you said thatyou're a connector and a
convener, convener across theentire state of California. So
it definitely takes many handsto do this work. So it's just
amazing that you are honoringthese individuals Absolutely,
Dana Sherrod (37:21):
and they they deserve so much more. You know,
they deserve all the things.There's so many people do work
behind the scenes that folks maynever know or recognize, but
their their work makes such atremendous impact. I think about
those who have been doing anincredible job of lifting up and
(37:46):
championing legislation, oursisters that, for example, Black
Women for Wellness and BlackWomen for Wellness action
project they've done, they'vereally, honestly been on the
front lines of leading a lot ofthe legislation in California
that has given us so manyimprovements that we see so, you
(38:07):
know, they're just and there'sjust countless others who are
serving our families, who areloving on our families, who are
pushing for change in systems.And there's just never enough,
you know, enough gratitude, Ithink, to give all of these
incredible leaders.
Angela Harris (38:25):
Wow, it takes a village to
Dana Sherrod (38:29):
raise it does.
Angela Harris (38:32):
Well. Now we're coming off of an election, and
we have a new presidentialadministration, administration,
and I'm curious what concerns orhope you have as it relates to
policies that might affect blackmaternal health?
Dana Sherrod (38:47):
Yeah, you know, I think we, we are experiencing a
lot of unknowns right now. Ofcourse, I think we have a lot of
fear in our communities, forwhat is this going to mean for
for us as individuals, for ourfamilies, for the work you know,
(39:09):
myself and my team, we aredeeply committed that, you know,
the work continues. The work hasto continue, and so, you know,
we prepare as much as possible,and we just continue, you know,
we we square our shoulders 10toes down, we continue to link
(39:31):
arms and march forward. And Ithink that, you know, we're
really fortunate again. We'revery fortunate in California
that we do have a lot of leadersin place who are who are devoted
and committed and want to seebetter outcomes for,
particularly for black moms andfor black babies, but for for
(39:54):
all of our all of our families,you know, all of all of our
families need to be doingbetter. And so, you know, I
think we have a real opportunityto continue to champion the
work. And you know what, whatthat looks like, may expand. It
may grow. You know the how partof it may expand and grow, but
(40:19):
the core mission is the same.You know, we are still committed
to supporting Black birth equityand justice. Sounds
Angela Harris (40:33):
like California is certainly a leader in this
area for any listeners or allieswho might be called to act. What
can they do to get involved on anational level?
Dana Sherrod (40:44):
Absolutely, it's a great question, because every
state is so different.Obviously, we know there's
different political landscapesand wills. I like to encourage
people to really understandwhat's happening in their state.
There are in, you know, justabout every state, well, I'll
(41:06):
say many states that are have atleast some sizable population of
black people. There tends to besome organizations that are
doing great work. You know,we've got incredible orgs in the
South, in the northeast, youknow that are that are standing
in the gap for families who arejust doing great work. So I tend
(41:28):
to encourage people to check outthe organizations specifically
in their state, but also some ofthe national organizations,
black mamas matter Alliance is agreat place to start and of
course, and to understand theirwork and who their partners are,
because there are ways forpeople to get involved, you
(41:50):
know, particularly in their intheir region, whether that's in
their city, in their county, andthey're in their state, that can
look certainly first andforemost, like donating
supporting. You know, theorganizations who are doing the
work, especially as as folks,are projecting that things may
shift and get get tighter interms of funding. So providing
(42:14):
financial support, you know,engaging with some of the local
meetings or engaging their localelected officials and really
lifting this issue up there,supporting policy that is, you
know, in support of advancing,you know, birth, equity and
justice. So there's a lot ofways that I think people can
(42:38):
first build their knowledge andunderstanding of what's
happening where they live theclosest to home, and then
learning about the folks who areon the ground doing the work and
how they can actually supportthem directly.
Angela Harris (42:54):
What do you envision for the future of black
maternal health? If you had amagic wand, it can change one
thing overnight, what would it
Dana Sherrod (43:07):
be? There's so much I would love to There's so
much I would love to change, butI think what I would love to see
is that people have choice interms of how, you know, having a
(43:27):
vision for how they want tobring their children into the
world, and that we have systemsand structures in place to
support that. So whether theywant to, you know, have their
baby at home with a midwife,whether they choose to have
their baby in a hospital, thatfolks would have the safety, not
(43:51):
only just sort of the physicalsafety, but like the cultural
Safety, the psychologicalsafety, the fear, the utmost
care and truly the love I wouldI would want for every person to
know that you know, regardlessof where, where or how or with
(44:13):
whom they choose to have theirbabies, that they would have the
support, that they would have,the resource that they would
have the wraparound servicesthat you need and not be
forgotten about after the babycomes. You know that they would
have, yeah, just have all of thethings that they need to have,
the joyous, healthy births thatwe will be able to raise our
(44:37):
children in communities that youknow, that are that are safe,
that are well resourced, youknow, all of the things I think
about, all the sort of tenantsof reproductive justice. But I
really, just, I really wouldlove to see us usher in a new
way of of being when we talkabout. About birthing and
(45:02):
parenting, and that vision is somuch more expansive than just
when we have the baby. You know,it goes beyond that, I think,
over their lives, over ourlives. But for me, at its core
is that people would have thechoice, and that wherever and
however they choose to do it,that they know they'll be safe,
(45:25):
they'll be loved, they'll betaken care of, that they'll be
seen. And I really feel hopeful.I really feel hopeful for that.
Angela Harris (45:37):
I love that having a vision of people having
a choice being saved, loved andsupported in their journey.
Dana Sherrod (45:45):
Absolutely, I think it's what we all you know,
it's what we all want in someform or fashion.
Angela Harris (45:56):
Oh, Dana, before we wrap up, I have one final
question, what do you do torecharge when you aren't
fearlessly leading?
Dana Sherrod (46:05):
I love this question. I love it so much
because, you know, this work isheavy. It's very hard as it's,
it's, it's deeply, as Imentioned, it's deeply personal.
You know, it's not likesomething we just clock in and
out of and we're done for thedays. These are real lives. So I
(46:28):
it's been a journey for me tolearn a how to turn off and shut
down, and some of the ways thatI do that is through creativity
I have within the last year,started playing guitar.
Angela Harris (46:48):
I was gonna ask you about that.
Dana Sherrod (46:51):
So I do really. I mean, I love it so much I sing.
And so being able to play musicand sing music is just, it just
restores me to my board. So Ireally love music. I love
(47:12):
creating. So painting, I makebeaded jewelry. And you know,
the things that just allow me toget creative juices flowing. So
those things really helped me. Ialso love to sleep. I'm a
Napper. I love taking naps. Ialso encourage my team, you
(47:33):
know, sometimes to go lay downand take a short nap during the
day, you know, recharge. We arenot machines. You know, Trisha,
Hersey, Hersey from the napministry, you know, is been such
a champion for this, toencourage folks to go lay down,
you know, take a nap, that we'renot machines, that we're not
going to give our bodies to thesystem and and I really tried
(47:56):
to, really try to embody that.So, yeah, go lay down. So I do
love to go take a nap.
Angela Harris (48:06):
That should be on a t shirt. Go lay go lay down.
So I'm curious. I'm curious,When is the concert, the the
singing and the guitar concert?
Dana Sherrod (48:20):
Well, I'm hoping I can. I'm hoping I can. I'm
hoping to certainly get betterat at my guitar skills. I feel
like I'm, you know, beginner,intermediate. It's alright, but,
yeah, I'm mostly sing right now.I mostly sing in the church, and
just use my gift to honor Godand for allowing me to do this
(48:45):
work and for all the things thathe is he has given. So that is
primarily where I sing, where myheart lies, and where, you know,
I hope to be able to writemusic, but that's down the road
that's amazing. Yeah,
Angela Harris (49:04):
well, Vader, you've given us so much to think
about today. How can ourlisteners stay connected with
you in the work that you'redoing?
Unknown (49:11):
We are on social media so folks can connect with us on
Instagram, you know, YouTube,all those sort of social
channels @cablackbirthjustice.You can also follow us on our
website atwww.cablackbirthjustice.com, we
(49:32):
have a sign up for our ournewsletter, so as opportunities
come up, different things are onthe horizon. That's a good way
for people to stay in the loopand certainly to be able to
volunteer, to to donate. I, I,you know, encourage people to
(49:52):
put some skin in the game. Youknow, put put some skin in the
game through our dollars,through our resources. And so we
have opportunities. Communitiesto donate online, and certainly,
just to continue to stay stayconnected with us. Those are
really the best ways, and we'reexcited to connect with so many
different folks. So we love welove it. Then
Angela Harris (50:17):
I just want to say thank you for the work that
you're doing to protect anduplift black mothers and babies,
because your voice is certainlyneeded now more than ever.
Dana Sherrod (50:27):
Thank you so much. I really do appreciate it. I
appreciate just the time andbeing able to share and just you
know always, I always like toleave an encouragement for
listeners, particularly forblack women, listeners that you
know, there is a entire network,a whole community of people who
(50:50):
you know, who love you deeplyand who see you, who want to
support you, who are dedicatingtheir life in their life's work,
so that you and your family canthrive that you know, we don't.
We don't want people to move infear. We don't want people to be
fearful of of starting families,creating families, but to know
(51:14):
that, yeah, there's a wholethere's a whole crew across the
country that is doing all theycan so that you you can, yeah,
have the family and the birthand all the things that you
desire, so no fear here.
Angela Harris (51:34):
Wow, that's powerful. Thank you for those
uplifting words.
Dana Sherrod (51:38):
Thank you so much, Angela, it's been such a
privilege to have the timetogether.
Angela Harris (51:42):
You're very welcome and to our listeners,
thank you for tuning in today.If you enjoyed this episode,
please share it with someone whoneeds to hear it. Let's continue
amplifying these criticalconversations. Hey, fearless
leaders, are you ready to alignyour career with your purpose?
(52:04):
If you've reached a point inyour career where growth isn't
just about titles and paychecks,but about making a real impact,
it's time to dig deeper. Imaginehaving a career that doesn't
just look successful on paper,but feels fulfilling and aligned
with your personal mission. As acertified coach with over 20
(52:27):
years in corporate as a blackwoman in tech, I know firsthand
the unique obstacles we face andthe power that comes from
leading with confidence andpurpose. During our work
together, we'll define yourpersonal values and align them
with your career goals, addressself doubt and strengthen your
(52:48):
self belief and build the toolsyou need to lead authentically
and confidently. Let's worktogether to redefine success on
your terms. I see you and Iunderstand your journey. If
you're ready to get started,visit angelavharris.com today to
(53:11):
book your free discovery call.Can't wait to work with you.
Thank you for listening to theflow podcast. As we wrap up
today's episode, always rememberyour unique path, your voice and
your leadership matter. If youloved what you heard. Subscribe
(53:36):
now to stay updated on ourlatest episodes. Take a moment
to leave a review and share thisepisode with someone who can
benefit from theseconversations. You can stay
connected with me on Instagramat the flow podcast with Angela,
or visit me on the web at AngelaV harris.com Until next time,
(54:00):
take care, stay inspired andkeep fearlessly leading in your
own way. You.
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