Pulling Back the Curtain on HR (Part II)

Episode Transcript
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Angela Harris (00:05):
Welcome to the F.L.O.W. podcast, fearlessly
leading our way. This podcast isa space dedicated to
spotlighting the unfilteredvoices of black women in their
unique leadership journeys. I amyour host, Angela V. Harris, I'm

(00:26):
an award winning coach, speaker,author and champion from black
women. Make sure you like andsubscribe to this podcast to
stay connected to ourconversation, let's get ready to
flow.

(00:53):
Hey, fearless leaders, welcomeback to the flow podcast. I'm
your host, Angela V Harris inthis episode, we are bringing
back Lisa Anderson, our favoriteHR whisperer from season one for
part two of pulling back thecurtain on HR. If you recall, in

(01:14):
season one, Lisa shared thisstory of how she changed a
meeting where she was beingdemoted into an exit strategy
meeting and negotiated herseverance package. Today, she's
back to share even more insightsand practical tips. We discuss
topics like dei rollbacks, reskilling in the age of AI, the

(01:38):
impact of return to Officeorders and navigating workplace
cultures. We also explore hermission to help women elevate
their visibility, overcome thebroken rung challenges in
leadership and thrive in toxic,free environments. Lisa's candid
stories and actionable tips willleave you inspired and informed

(02:01):
as we discuss what it trulytakes to transform our workplace
culture and support the nextgeneration of leaders, whether
you're a leader, aspiringmanager, or just navigating your
career journey, this episodeoffers valuable takeaways you
won't want to miss. Let's getinto the episode. Welcome back

(02:22):
to the show, Lisa,

Unknown (02:23):
thank you. I'm excited to be back. I'm so

excited to have you back now tell us, Lisa, what
have you been up to since seasonone?

Unknown (02:32):
Yes, oh, so much over the past year. So I am still
coaching women leaders. The lasttime we spoke, I had just kicked
off the exit interviewstrategies on YouTube, and that
went very well. Got a lot ofquestions, got a lot of

(02:55):
feedback, that that littleseries helped people who are in
toxic work environments,especially women, and then
throughout the year, just, youknow, coaching and training and
speaking on different topics forwomen on how to become more

(03:15):
visible in the workplace. Soit's been a good year,

okay, well, I'm excited. I feel like you are
like our unofficial HRwhisperer. I like the way you
break things down for thelisteners.

Unknown (03:26):
Yes, yes. That's what I'm hearing pulling back the
curtain, yes.

So before we dive in, I know we're at the start of
2025 what's one workplace trendyou're most excited about or
concerned about this year?

Unknown (03:42):
Yeah, so for Chief HR officers, there's a there's a
lot going on right now, as we'reat the end of January of 2025,
with a new administration comingin. And as I shared with you
before, Angela, I'm ingovernment contracting, so for a

(04:05):
lot of us, you know, we're we'reour eyes are wide open, and
we're looking at all the thechanges that are coming that's
going to impact ourorganization, our employees, our
our customers. So a lot ofCHROs, you know, we're looking
at a lot of things going intothis year. One big thing that is

(04:30):
impacting everyone is thetechnology, right? Is changing.
So a lot of companies arelooking at, how do, how do we
utilize AI? And if you're notutilizing AI, how to use it
responsibly, and what do we needto do for our workforce to

(04:53):
utilize this technology and thiscapability? And that's a biggie
going in. Into you know thisthis year, and that the
technology is is changing sofast, and so some companies are
on board, and some are not. Andyou know, if you're not having

(05:15):
these kind of conversations withyour leadership team, just be
aware. You know you may be leftbehind, and that's not a good
feeling, right? So that's onething. So how do we Up skill and
re skill our workforce toutilize this technology in a
responsible way? So that's a bigtheme. The other big thing

(05:42):
that's kind of happening is, youknow, now we're looking at, how
do we, with all the impact andthe changes going on, how do we
make sure we retain ourorganizational culture, and are
there things that we need tochange in our in our culture.
Another big one is how wedeveloping our talent. Mm, hmm,

(06:06):
oh, my goodness, because a lotof people are either, you know,
you may lose talent, or how doyou take mid and emerging level
talent and make sure they'regrowing within your company to
get them ready for newleadership opportunities. That

(06:28):
is a big one I know, for myorganization and and another a
lot of CHROs are looking atthat. The other thing I want to
just to touch on is now, whatdoes dei look like? Yes, yes,
yes, yeah, with the newadministration and all these
changes are coming out prettyfast, and I am on probably at

(06:53):
least a webinar every three daysfor government contracting.
Because now, you know, withthese new executive orders
coming out and rolling back ofexecutive orders in the
government contracting space,you know that's impacting all of

(07:13):
the compliance things that weneed to do, as far around
affirmative action plans, andyou know, some of the reporting
that we have to do so it is justso much. It's just so much going
on right now in the workplace.Okay,

I mean, you've given us some good things to
focus on. I heard you talk aboutthe RE Skilling and the
upskilling AI, and how that'simpacting not only the
workforce, but I guess, likefrom a talent, you know, a
talent attractions perspective.And also, I heard you say talent
development and growing your midand emerging talent,

Unknown (07:52):
yes, yes, that's huge right now. And you know, in my
coaching world, in my coachingbusiness, I work with women
mostly. And the McKinsey reportthat came out in October,
November of last year, 2024 andthis was their 10 year
anniversary report. And in thatreport, over the last 10 years,

(08:17):
they've seen movement with womenat the C suite level, right,
like so you know, from 20, let'ssay 15 to 2024, 2014 to 2024,
they've they saw some movementof more women in C suite
positions. But what I found morealarming is that at the lower

(08:40):
levels of management, theprogress of women moving into
management was was slow, yes,and oh my goodness, I was like,
What do you mean that's slow?Because that's the feeder pool
of moving up into C suitepositions. So if we're not
promoting women at the lowerlevels into management and into

(09:04):
mid level management. Then guesswhat the feeder pool is to the
senior spots. So my whole, youknow, bells and

rings ring. The alarm

Unknown (09:17):
was like, ringing like, oh boy, you know, yeah, you know
when they can do this report 10years from now, the little bit
of movement that you saw in theC suite over the last 10 years
that's about to go right out thedoor, if women are not Yes, yes,
being promoted into management,

let's stay there for a minute, because I follow
those Mackenzie reports very,Very very closely, near and dear
to my heart, just because I feellike I fell into that category.
So one of the data points in theMcKinsey report talked about the
concept of the broken ring,which is women's inability to
get that first management levelposition. And then when you take

(09:58):
it from an intersectionalperspective. Active and look at
black women, black women orblack professionals in general,
face a double broken run. So notonly do we lack the ability to
transition into that firstmanagement role, but it's even
harder for us to to pivot frommanagement to executive
leadership.

Unknown (10:15):
Yes, yes, and if no, and if you know organizations
have not seen that report. Okay,if you've seen the report, then
what are you doing about it?Right? I

I've been asking that question for years, Lisa
and again, just taking it backfrom to my own personal
experience in the tech industry,there's data that indicates that
56% of mid career women in techare leaving the industry. So to
your point, women are alreadyseverely underrepresented in the
tech industry as is, and if youhave 56% leaving to your earlier

(10:49):
point, we're not going to havethat pool, that pipeline of
senior executive women,absolutely

Unknown (10:55):
and and one of my missions, you know, with my
coaching business, is, how dowomen become more visible, so
they can be seen her andrecognized? Mm, hmm, right,
yeah, in there, because now, ifthey are already women in you
know your organization, that arealready very visible, and they

(11:19):
have a voice, and they areinfluenced, you know, they have
an influential voice, andthey're still not getting
opportunities. Now, let's talkabout your culture.

I was going to say, I mean, I was going to
actually made a note about that.We have to go back to to what
you said earlier about changingthe culture. And I also heard
you mention the the toxicity, Ifeel like the culture and the
toxicity, those are issues thatare being swept under the rug in
corporate America. So again, thereason why women are fading out
towards the top is because ofthe culture and the toxicity,

Unknown (11:55):
right? Because you're not going to, you're not going
to say that there's no women inyour organization that are ready
for management positions,because then I'm like, looking
at your side eye like, really,right? So, but what I'm finding
is, okay, you know, I'm beinghired as a coach to help women

(12:19):
with their visibility and to,you know, make sure that they
are showing up in their values,you know, so they don't have to,
you know, put the mask on, rightand you know, are they building
relationships, genuineconnections and relationships?
Are they using theircredibility? You know, do they

(12:40):
have credibility? Let's talkabout that. First, do they have
credibility? Because that's whatwe work on. And if they have
credibility, do they leveragetheir credibility to become an
influencer in theirorganization, right? To get the
influential voice right? Thenwe're talking about relevance.
I'm coaching women on howrelevant Are you right? Like, if

(13:03):
you're not even relevant, thenthey're going to overlook you.
Yeah, right. And then the brand,you know, your leadership, your
your personal brand, or yourleadership brand, you know, what
does that look like? So I coacharound. I have a methodology
called The Voice methodology,right? And we're hitting all of

(13:28):
those points to make sure you'rethe full rounded, you know,
person. Now, you go through allof that, and you're, you're, you
know, doing your thing, and you,you know, you have influence,
and you still not getting thepromotions or the opportunities.
Now we're having a differentconversation, cuz, and I've had

(13:51):
those kind of conversation, isthis, you know, where you
currently are, is this aworkplace that you can thrive in
as your true, authentic self,because you're showing up and
nothing's happening, noopportunities are coming your
way, you know. And you feel likeyou're hitting a brick wall,
then you have to question, Isthat the right workplace for me?

(14:14):
Is that the right culture forme? Cuz maybe I'll Thrive
somewhere else. Mm hmm, with allmy, my, you know, my brilliance
and my everything, maybe that'snot appreciate. Appreciated
here. I've

been there. I have been there, and I've had to
take my skills elsewhere andultimately end up creating my
own table

Unknown (14:38):
Exactly, and that's what a lot of women are doing,
because they don't feel likethey're appreciated and they're
recognized and they're gettingthe opportunities in the
workplace. Yeah? So, yeah, thatis it's the whole thing is just
like, whoo, and it's about totake go double. You know? Yeah.

(15:00):
I

was going to ask that, because we touched on the
sweeping changes that we've seenso far related to diversity,
equity, inclusion. So with allthe change that we've seen so
far, are we seeing meaningfulprogress, or all these rollbacks
going to hold us back?

Unknown (15:15):
Well, the verdict is still out, right? Because here's
the thing you know now, andespecially in private sector,
right? So what some companiesare doing is they still doing
the DEI work, but then they'renot calling it Dei.

I've noticed a lot of people have switched to
inclusion versus Dei, or justlike, just referencing inclusion

Unknown (15:41):
right right now, but that doesn't mean, depending on
the workplace, that doesn't meanthey're still not doing the DEI
work.

Okay, so rebranding, yeah, strategic
rebranding, exactly

Unknown (15:55):
you would call this the work is still being done. Okay,
okay, I can put a new name onit. I don't care what you call
it, as long as we're stilldeveloping, you know, women or
underserved, you know,populations, whatever, as long
as we're still doing it. I don'tcare what you call right. My
whole thing is results. What arethe outcomes of that? And you're

(16:19):
not going to tell me that noneof the key talent that we have
in organizations are not diversetalent. You're going to have to
come up with a different storyfor me on that, because we've
seen it right so it is. It'sreally, especially in the HR
space right now, is really beingable to try to navigate all of

(16:44):
these dynamics that are comingin and still, you know,
supporting the organization andtrying to, you know, get us
moving forward during a time ofa lot of uncertainty right now.

Well, I heard you talk about results, and it
sounds like we need to cloneyou, Lisa, and this kind of just
like place you across differentcompanies. Because again, going
back to this McKinsey reportwhere you said that the data
shows that women are, you know,trailing off. We see companies
producing their I guess, likeannual diversity reports, or
whatever you want to call them,and they always paint this rosy

(17:20):
picture, like, Oh, we've alreadyhit our goals, or, Oh, we're
we're on target. But again,Mackenzie, the data doesn't lie.
So if they are on target, whydoes the McKenzie have the
discrepancy? DiscrepancyExactly, exactly.

Unknown (17:35):
Now, McKenzie, you know, they and they are huge. I
mean, they're surveying a lotdifferent companies, you know,
different industries. You know,the whole nine yards, right? But
so if your organization is, youknow, doing a great job at, you
know, developing talent thatthat mid and emerging level or

(17:58):
even entry level talent, right?

That's untapped. That's like, it should be a was
it a culture of coaching? So youhave a culture of more self
aware, emotionally intelligentleaders, which will get rid of
that toxicity that we're facedwith anyway, right?

Unknown (18:18):
But here's the here's some of the problem with that
some of the leaders never had tolead in that way. Mm, hmm. So
sometimes the managers do notknow how to manage, right? We
have five generations in theworkforce today. I think that's

(18:40):
the most that we've ever hadfive generations. And so, you
know, my my opinion is we gotta,we gotta teach the managers how
to manage and develop theiremployees, cuz sometimes they

(19:00):
don't know how to, you know, Ihave one, one of my coaching
clients, I said to her, you're apurple unicorn. And she was
like, what I said, Look, you'rein, you, you know, you're in a
male dominated she was anengineer. And I'm like person, a

(19:22):
woman of color, you know, theonly one on her team and her
manager wanted to help her, buthe did not know how. And I said,
You are a purple unicorn. We'regoing to have to teach you me,
and you going to have to be inthe background, because he don't
know I exist as your coach, asyour leadership coach, but we

(19:44):
going to have to teach him howto work with you. You're going
to have to share with him yourneeds and and the The wonderful
thing about it, he wanted tohelp he really, genuinely wanted
to help her. But he just didn'tknow how Wow. And you know we
were able to, you know, she wasable to, she had that

(20:07):
relationship, you know, withhim, and he was open to
listening. And you know, she hadto share with him what she
needed from him in order to, youknow, get her visibility up.
Wow. So that was half thebattle, because now, if he
wasn't even open to listen,yeah, you know, and helping,

(20:27):
then we got a whole anotherissue on our hands, right? But
this particular leader, he was,he was open to helping, and she
was able to, like, triple hervisibility. And, yeah, she we
got to the point where salesteams were fighting for her to
be the lead engineer on theirprojects. And I was like, Man,
this is what it's all about,right? Like, this is where the

(20:51):
rubber hits the road, you know,when you see that.

Well, kudos to you for for guiding her to that
place. Lisa, yeah,

Unknown (21:00):
but we had to pull back the layers, you know, because
we're like, you know, he andagain, he just didn't know how
to, you know, he didn't knowwhat to do. He didn't know, and
she had to open that door, buthe was willing to. He's like,
Yep, I'll help you with that,you know, so, but you know, back

(21:21):
to the point of, sometimes theleaders or the managers they
they they want to do it, butthey just don't know how. So how
do you, you know, help yourleaders? I mean, my company, we
go back to the basics, like wewe want to make sure that our
managers are at least havingcareer conversations with their

(21:43):
employees, like, let's startthere. You know, do you know
what your employee wants to doin his or her career? Let's
start there. Cuz, if you don'tknow, then how you going to help
somebody, and you don't knowwhat their aspirations are, so

(22:06):
you know, so you got to get, youknow, some common language, or
you got to get the theorganization going, and manager
set some frameworks for them towork through, for developing
their employees, and if theyneed help with that, then that's
what the role of our team. HR,and let's help them. You know,

(22:29):
help their people.

That makes sense. And I want to go back to what
you said earlier about how oneof the things that you're
focused on right now is eitherretaining the culture or
changing the culture. And I knowwe've seen a lot of Return to
Work Orders, and I'm justcurious how you think that's
going to affect morale orproductivity?

Unknown (22:54):
Yes. So, you know, I just heard today, well, I knew
that the government is someagency, a lot of agencies are, I
mean, and I think they'reripping the band aid off. They
want people back in the office,like, five days a week, right?

And I think I saw no telework at all. Like, is
this 100% in office? Notelework. Very

Unknown (23:16):
extreme, like, and for us, you know, because we're
contract, government contract,and we have employees that
follow what the government isdoing, like, right? So if
they're if their agency is backto work, we're waiting to hear
from them, the governmentcustomers, to say, okay,

(23:37):
contractors, now we want you allback in the in the in the
office, five days a week, fulltime. So that's going to be
quite a shift and a change. Iknow we're going to lose people,
because some people are like,look, I didn't got used to not

(23:58):
being in the office, and Iprefer that I don't go back into
an office. And so some peopleare going to make personal
decisions, what's best for themand their families and and
decide not to go into theoffice, or, you know, find, you
know, other opportunities thatare 100% remote. So, you know,

(24:21):
organizations, we got to getready for that. I think we're
going to see an uptick inturnover for those who are
making personal decisions.That's, you know, right for
their families. The other thingis, you know, for those who who
cannot just leave or, you know,then we may have employees that

(24:44):
are just hanging in there untilthey find something else, right?
Yeah.

So, so with that, I guess, like, What strategies
can companies adopt to balancethat productivity and employee
satisfaction? Because I think Iread something a few months ago,
there's something called Photoactivity, basically people just
kind of just like. Faking itlike you said,

Unknown (25:02):
yeah, they're the ones that are showing up to work, but
the minute that they seesomething else, they'll get
another opportunity. They're thefirst ones to they're like, I'm
out, or they're coming in, andthen, you know, they're doing
the the bare minimum until theycan, you know, until they can
exit. So, you know,organizations gotta look at that

(25:24):
right and recognize and youknow, I'm in contracting, right?
So for us, unfortunately, if thecustomer says that they want
contractors back in, you know,five days a week and our
employees, they're not in ourour corporate space, they are on
the government site. Mm, hmm. Sosometimes, you know,

(25:47):
organizations, our hands aregoing to be tied. And you know,
if the customer will not allowus to maintain the flexibility,
and because they're they have tobe there five days, they want
the contractors there five days,then we're not going to have a
choice but to tell our employeesthat we're going to need to go
back five days. And again,that's where we're going to see,

(26:09):
I think, experience someturnover. So, you know, I'm not
sure of of other industries,other industries, you know, they
may have more say. You know,especially if you're private,
you know corporate, you may havemore say. Like our CEO announced
to our leadership team thismorning that he's he's very

(26:31):
comfortable with the three daysa week for our headquarter
staff. Right? He was like, Idon't see us going back five
days. He said, I think we're ina sweet spot with three days and
still allowing some flexibility.Now, we had a lot of drama when
we went to three days. We lostsome good people where, you

(26:55):
know, because we were kind of,you know, we were not 100%
remote, but we it for the mostpart. A lot of our staff was
doing two days, and then whenour CEO announced he won
everybody back in the officethree days. Oh my goodness,
you're talking about drama. Wehad drama and and we lost some

(27:17):
good talent because people werelike, I'm not coming back three
days a week. And so we wentthrough that period. And I'm
sure other organizations aregoing have gone through it,
where we lost key talent becauseour CEO wanted people back in
three days a week. And it was,you know, sort of refreshing to
hear from him today to theleadership team that for the

(27:42):
staff that we have control over,you know, our headquarter staff
and our corporate staff that hewanted to keep the three days
instead of forcing the five daysa week. Mm, hmm. So I know
everybody, and all the managersand leaders in the room were
like, wow, yeah. And so we aresharing that with our staff, you

(28:06):
know, to let them know. Look,because, you know, of course, a
lot of people are like, Well,what does this mean? You know
this, there's a in the in theorganization, so there's a lot,
there's a lot going on, Angela,and then you have with this, AI,
ooh, I wonder how many of yourlisteners are starting to use

(28:30):
AI. And you know, I work for atechnology company, right? So my
CEO and my CIO, they're excitedabout AI so excited. They didn't
built, built it behind ourfirewall, right? Because we
don't want our stuff out on the,you know, out there. So they're

(28:50):
encouraging, you know, we'reencouraging everybody, you know,
get in there and do it, figurethings out. But you gotta do it
behind our firewall. You can'tbe just out there, yes, doing,
yeah. So, so that's another, youknow, big one, you know, what is
the attitude around thetechnology? You know, are you,

(29:13):
you know, is the organizationskind of scared of it? Mm, hmm,
or are you encouraging employeesto get out there and start to
use the technology to to getmore efficient. Yeah, in their
jobs, and again, depending onyour industry, because I'm Tech,
so my you ain't gotta tell mypeople twice. They, they like,

(29:37):
what y'all the Oh, great. Theyand we prove and look they were
using it before we put it behindthe fire. Now we're like, okay,
we know y'all were out thereusing it anyway, so now we want
you to use it, but you know, berespectful and use it behind the

(29:58):
firewall, where we have someprotections. Especially on our
data, yes, on our data. So,yeah. So, yeah. So it's just,
you know, it's a lot, it's a lotgoing on. It is,

well, that's a great segue, because I did want
to dig a little bit deeper intoAI, because we've seen how it's
been reimagining jobs. And justas an example, I think about the
dock workers on the East Coastlast fall and the strike, or the
pending strike, over theincreased use of AI and
automation. So I'm curious whatresponsibility, if any, do you
believe companies have to reskill workers who may just be,

(30:34):
who may be displaced by theseadvancements?

Unknown (30:38):
Definitely, there is a huge is a huge responsibility.
Now here's my you know question,I know AI, you know, we can
build it where you have so manyefficiencies, right? But what
employees are worried about iswhether I'm going to have a job
at the end, right, right? And ifyou you know, as an

(30:59):
organization, we absolutely areresponsible for the RE skilling
piece and having the strategicthought that, hey, this group or
this position or job may beimpacted. So what skills can we
pull and develop to do this overhere, right? And that's where

(31:23):
the strategic piece comes in. Istrying to get on the over the in
front of it, right? Instead ofbeing reactive, yeah, to it and
so it is. It's going to force orUS organizations to think about
it differently, because usuallywhen we're developing talent in

(31:46):
the old days, now I'm gonna,like, date myself a little bit,
but in the old days, we look atthe job and we're like, oh,
okay, let's look, you know,develop the person for the
particular job, instead oflooking at, okay, let's forget
the job. What are the skillsthat are needed across the

(32:06):
organization? Not just lookingat one job versus the other job,
but let's even take it to amacro level. What skills do does
someone need? Does an employeeneed in order to be successful
in our culture and ourenvironment. Can we start there?

(32:27):
Cuz, look some some depending onyour culture, right? Like, if
you have an entrepreneur cultureor a creative type culture
innovation, what are the skillsthat someone need to have in
order to thrive in thosecultures. Now we're not even

(32:48):
talking about jobs right now, solet's start at that macro level,
and if they have these skillswhere they are, they can be very
successful in our culture, then,what are the skills that do we
need in order to develop them tocertain job, maybe even job

(33:09):
families, right? Like so it isdifferent than with the way, you
know, it was 10 years ago whenwe're talking about developing
talent. Another thing I'm seeingis you're gonna we're doing more
interpersonal skill development.That's another one, right, like

(33:32):
soft skills and getting youknow, talent, comfortable, you
know, and developing them incertain soft skills so then they
can, you know, especially ifwe're talking about moving them
into management or leadershipand but a lot of companies focus

(33:53):
on the tech you know, whattechnical skills do they need?
And I'm like, okay, tech skillsare great, but let's talk about
some soft skills. Can the personcommunicate effectively? Mm,
hmm, how does this person handleconflict? If there's conflict in

(34:14):
the workplace, right? How dopeople can we, you know,
communicate? Do they have enoughemotional intelligence to be
able to will and deal like,let's go there too. We can still
do the tech skills, but we needthis over here too. So you know,
how do you balance? Balance IT?And

it's also just making me go back to what you
what you led with earlier, aboutthis McKenzie report and how we
have so few women at the top. Imean, they have the
interpersonal skills and thesoft skills. And like you said,
it sounds like that thetechnical skills have been
prioritized over the softskills. Which leads me to the
next topic I wanted to talktouch on, which is skills based

(34:56):
hiring. I know that's just ahuge push for that. And. And for
the listeners who may not befamiliar with that, that term or
that topic in this approach,skills or competencies matter
more than educational backgroundor work history. But I'm
curious, Lisa, are how I guessequitably, is that being applied

(35:17):
if we still have so few womenrepresented at senior levels of
leadership, yeah,

Unknown (35:24):
now, and this is a, I won't say, a big debate, but it
is shifting to towards that,because I know even our company
we're looking at, you know, withwith government, sometimes we
can't get around those with whatI call labor category

(35:45):
requirements, like, if they wanta degree and a, you know, degree
and so many years of experience,sometimes we have to adhere to
that, you know, in order to meetthat labor cat. But, but for
those positions that are not,you know, billable to government
that you know, let's just saycorporate or headquarter

(36:07):
function type positions,absolutely we have the ability
to make sure look at theperson's skills versus the
education, right, like becausehere's the thing, over the
years, I would probably takesomeone that have had experience
doing a particular function.They've developed their skills

(36:30):
over the years. They've beensuccessful in their previous
roles, but they may not have thedegree, and just depend on the
culture, right? Like, if you'reso you know, focus on the degree
and you have a learning culturewhere you can help them develop

(36:51):
the other skills. Then okay? Butfor me, I would take someone
that may not have the formaldegree, but they have, you know,
they have built their career,and they and when I look at
their resume, I may have seesome awesome experience that

(37:13):
they got. And I mean, hands onexperience, you know, they built
it, they created it, they theyfailed at it. They have lessons
learned from it. That's who Iget excited about that. I was
like, Oh, they got the lessonslearned. That's the best, that's
the best learning, you know,that you can get. You know,

(37:35):
besides, you know, the form ofeducation, right? But some
workplaces might not be open tothat, right? Some work places,
they are very much formal. Andif you don't have the degree,
you don't even get your foot inthe door, yeah,

I feel like I've kind of fallen into the I feel
like the whole transferableskills thing, although I've had
them and the degrees, I feellike still never given any grace
as it relates to give beingadvanced

Unknown (38:02):
for opportunities, right? Right? Which is, which is
sad, sad for the organizations,right? Because they're missing
out on a person that's wellrounded. You know, I thought I
was, yeah, absolutely, and so itbecomes short sighted. Oh, is
that all? All you're looking atis whether you know the can you

(38:23):
look at the full package here,and then look some
organizations, we will bewilling to take the, you know,
make that decision. Have youcome in? Right? You got all this
great experience. And then ifyou wanted to go to for the
degree. I know my company, weoffer more than just the IRS

(38:45):
limit on tuition. Our CEO, weoffer $10,000 yeah, we are, we
are very generous. So we do$10,000 a year for anyone that
wants to, you know, go for theirdegree now. So you hey, I would
take you in a heartbeat. I seeyour experiences. You got all

(39:08):
this great you know, things thatyou've done, you, you know,
again, the lessons learned andall that. And look, let's bring
you in. And then if you havethat aspiration, you want to go
for the degree, then takeadvantage of the tuition
assistance program that we have,and, yeah, work on your degree.

(39:28):
But that's not the gatekeeper.And so that is a shift, and I
really hope organizations arelooking at the big picture, and
and not just, you know, beingshort sighted on the degrees
where they can, because, again,you know, I'm in government
contracting, in some contractswe can't get around it, but

(39:52):
where we can. Yeah, why not?

Yeah? Well, that's great perspective. And
actually, I said with you beingas. I did want to talk touch on
the whole discussion regardingH, 1b, visas. I know that's been
another big topic in the news,and for the listeners who aren't
familiar, that's a program thatallows companies to employ
highly skilled foreign workersin specialty positions. I know

(40:17):
Tech is a big I guess, likebenefactor of that program, and
Lisa, we've been talking about,you know, talent gaps, and not,
you know, skilling folks. So whydoes it appear that we aren't
developing the the proper talentin the United States that we
have to bring in,

Unknown (40:37):
outsource people? Yeah, so, and here's the thing, too. I
don't know if you for thelisteners that h 1b process is
not an easy process, right? Thegovernment does? They want to
know what? Because basicallyyou're telling the government
that we do not have or you can'tfind us talent, talent, and

(41:02):
people who are US citizens withthis particular skill set. Mm,
hmm, and that that's what thereason why you're kind of going
h 1b um, my organization, we donot have h 1b s only because,
because we're a governmentcontractor, a lot of our
contracts, you have to be a UScitizen in order to be on those

(41:26):
contracts, right? So, but thereare some government contractors
out there that do utilize h1,B's, so, but you as a
organization, we have to showwhy this particular person is
being hired, and you have toprove that you have done your

(41:49):
due diligence in trying torecruit non US citizens for this
kind of technical skills, andthat it wasn't available, or the
people were not available.

So are they really not available? Lisa,
because I read that from a techperspective, like one of the
common roles is like softwaredevelopment. And going back to
women, how many women in STEM orgirls in STEM initiatives have
we had over the past 20 yearsthat specifically focus on
coding? Yes, you can't findsoftware developers or female
software developers here in theUnited States. Yes,

Unknown (42:26):
that you're right. You're absolutely right. So what
you It almost makes you wonder,What's in that application
process for that you know thatyou're saying that you cannot
find this kind of personnel nowdoesn't

go back to to pay because, you know, let's talk
about pay equity. Women are notpaid equitably. It's going to
take black women, what, 40years? No, not 40, I think 40,
actually 100 years, to payequity. So is it, from a pay
perspective, because you reallydon't want to pay people
equitably. Is it? Is that why wesee the push for h 1b visas? No,

Unknown (43:04):
I think we see the push for h 1b and I'm just going to
keep it real, sometimes you seea highly technical person that,
and you want that individual.And here's the other thing, and
a company is willing to sponsorthem, because you have to be
sponsored for h1, B's right? Sowhere I've seen it, it has to be

(43:27):
a very specialized skill. And,and, and my company, we have, we
have some positions wherethere's only three people in the
country that can do thisparticular thing. So now you're
talking about very specialized,you know, they're looking for
one little thing that you gotcorn exactly, that you got three

(43:52):
people in the Durham country,and all three of them are
working like, what? So? So,yeah, so, so it depends, because
you can't say, you know, unlessit's highly, highly specialized,
that they're not us, women,women of color, that that people
out here don't exist. You can'tsay it, but companies are

(44:15):
willing to do the sponsorshipand get h1 B's in. Now it's
going to be interesting with thenew administration, how, with
with all the impacts, becausethere the, you know, every year,
there's only a certain number ofH, 1b, s that are approved, you
know, and it's taking a longtime to get those approvals

(44:38):
right. So this is going to befor those organizations that
have a lot of H, 1b, talent onboard, there's going to be very
interesting for them to gothrough this, because now you
might be caught in a situationwhere you know someone's
application is in and now theycan't get through the process.

(45:00):
Of approvals. So this is goingto, yeah, this is another area
that's going to get realinteresting with, with all
everything that's going onaround immigration, alright,
never a dull moment. It's nevera dull moment right now,

Elise, I want to switch things up a bit and move
into a lightning round, and thisis where we get to know a little
bit more about you. I'm going toask you some quick, candid and
straight from the heartquestions. They're going to be
rapid fire style, and you cananswer in just a sentence or
two. Okay,

Unknown (45:40):
I saw Are you ready? I'm ready. All right, here we

go. Okay, one thing I try to do every day is

Unknown (45:49):
meditate. Okay, even, look, I'm not good at it, but
even if it's five minutes, I'm

a five minute meditation girl. But I must say,
a friend of mine just shared a30 minute meditation with me,
and I've done it three timesalready. I've never meditated
over five minutes. So I have to,I have to share that with

Unknown (46:10):
you. Oh, please do, because I'm at the point where I
just need five minutes of justspace. Mm, hmm. And I'm trying
to that. I'm trying to getbetter at taking that for
myself, even if it's fiveminutes. Now, Am I perfect?
Absolutely not. Because I lookwhen I at the end of the day,

(46:32):
once I get into bed at night,I'd be like, Did I take the five
minutes or not? Why do mine

in the morning? I kind of, like, sets the tone for
my day. So that's like, one ofthe, not one of the first
things, but it's part of mymorning routine before I
actually get started in myactual work

Unknown (46:46):
day. Okay, that's where I need to become more
disciplined. Because sometimesI'm hitting the ground and I'm
like, moving and I'm like, dang,I didn't do my five minutes. And
I I owe it to myself. Yes, youdo. I need to be more than five
minutes, but I need the fiveminutes.

Okay, next question, I feel most alive when
I

Unknown (47:11):
feel most alive when I am helping people and I see that
I'm making an impact,

that's where I feel. I can I can tell by the
way you talk about your coachingclients and the work you do with
coaching, that makes completesense. Yeah, okay, a
professional experience thatshaped who I am today was

Unknown (47:33):
Ooh, when I lost my voice in meetings, shifting and
transforming out of that changedmy whole career.

Okay? My go to mantra for tough times is

Unknown (47:52):
when one door closes, French doors open,

Oh, I like that. French doors, two doors. I like
that, yeah,

Unknown (47:59):
because sometimes we can get so caught up on that
door, because, you know, we'rewe were depending, we were
hoping, we were praying thatthat door opens, and when it
shuts in our face, it candeflate everything out of us.
And so I always go, okay, thatdoors, that door closed for a
reason. I'm now looking for myFrench doors. I

like that. I'm gonna have to use that one. All
right. Next question, when Ineed a quick energy boost, I

Unknown (48:32):
I do Zumba. Okay, I love, I love Zumba, and I have a
community of women that I workout with, and that fires me up.
That's great,

alright, the boldest risk I've ever taken was

Unknown (48:50):
starting my coaching business. I sat on the sidelines
for 20 years for fear offailure. Mm, hmm. And that was
the boldest, boldest move Imade, working through that fear
and doing it, even though, whenI started, I didn't know what I
was doing, you know, but I wasdetermined. I was like the fear

(49:13):
of failure has kept me on thesideline for 20 years, and I've
always been able to figure itout in my corporate life, yes,
and so, why can't I do it formyself Exactly,

exactly. And last question to me, success means

Unknown (49:34):
to me, success means everything is in order, and when
I mean in order, I have peace. Ihave protected my energy. I'm
doing something that I love todo, and the the financial

(49:59):
rewards will come. With allthat, but it's about, you know,
protecting my peace, my energy,and doing what I love. Mm, hmm,
that's success to me. That's

so important. Like you said, so many people
equate success to, you know,title and, you know, paycheck.
But like you said, Peace,protecting your energy, doing
what you to know that'spriceless. You can't put a
paycheck on that

Unknown (50:23):
Exactly, exactly. And I've learned, you know, you can
chase the paycheck. You canchase the, you know, moving up
the ladder and all of that. Andwhen I was chasing every time I
got to that next level, I waslike, this still not it, yeah,
yeah, you're right. It was notfulfillment. Wasn't there, yep,

(50:46):
yeah. So when I, when I thoughtI was gonna, oh, well, once I
get this, yeah, and it will bethere. And I, and I was like,
Ooh, this, this ain't it. So,yeah. So it now took me a minute
to learn that

I'm guilty I can that resonates with me as well.
I guess I feel like for me, Ispent my career looking for
that, you know, thatfulfillment. And I guess, like
going through coach trainingmyself, I realized I was never
really chasing the title or thepaycheck. What I was truly
looking for was thatfulfillment, which I have now
found by creating my own tablethrough my own coaching practice
in my business. Yes,

Unknown (51:25):
yes. And, and, you know, now, this is not easy, you
know, Angela, oh

no, it's not. It's not,

Unknown (51:33):
it's not for the freight apart, this is not easy
work, you know, being anentrepreneur, and but it to me,
it doesn't, it's rewarding work,exactly, and now it is hard
work. Don't, don't get me wrong,but, but I can, once I can see
the vision, and I'm like, seeingthe impact, and I'm like, oh

(51:54):
boy. Then I'm like, Okay, it'sworth it. It's worth it in the
end. Yes, well,

Lisa, before we wrap up, I have one last
question, and I just love to askall my guests. And leadership is
such a big part of what you do,but we all need time to recharge
and reconnect with ourselves. Sowhat do you like to do when you
aren't fearlessly leading?

Unknown (52:17):
Oh, okay, so I like to add a couple of things, and I
try to get it in when I can. Ilove to just spend time with my
family, like I got a big family,and if it's even just getting
together, playing cards, playinggames, that's a big thing for
me. Just, you know, because I,over these last five years, I've

(52:40):
lost so many family members thatnow I it's even more precious to
me to spend the quality time. Sothat's one. And then when I
before my little knee injury, Iused to disco roller skate and
but since the knee injury, Ihaven't been bold enough to get

(53:01):
back on the roller skates. So Iwas like, Okay, I gotta make
that a little goal. But I lovejust, you know, just, and that
takes my mind out. I'm, I'm, I'mout there. I'm, you know, what,
the kids and adults, so thosethings, wow, that

was something. I was never a good skater. I was
like, when I went to the skatingrinks, I was always the one
holding on to the derailing theedge.

Unknown (53:25):
Now, you know, I used to. Now I skate a little
differently. I skate on thedefense, you know, making sure
nobody like, yeah, when I fallthe bones that they don't heal
like they used to. You know, Iused to, can fall and pop right
back up and keep it moving. Yes,but now, so, so it's a little
different, because I'm, I'm, youknow, I'm skating on the

(53:47):
defense, you know, making surenobody Knock, knock the old lady
over.

Because we need, we need your continued insights,
Lisa, but

Unknown (53:57):
yeah, we haven't been back on them since the knee
injury. So we're gonna Okay. Andmy husband looking like, Okay, I
think it's time to retire, youknow, injury, I don't expect to
see you on no roller skatesafter that knee injury. And I'm
like, I'm not willing to give itup just yet in my mind. So
that's where we are. Well, Lisa,thank you so much for sharing

(54:22):
your insights and helping us getready for all these sweeping
changes that we're going to seethis year in the workplace. Yes,
thank you for having me, Angela,and you know, to all my fellow
HR professionals, it is a timeright now. I just need everybody
to just hang in there, becauseyou are needed more than ever,

(54:44):
if ever, there was a time it isnow with everything that's going
on in the workplace right now.

Okay, well, how can our listeners stay connected
with you? Lisa,

Unknown (54:55):
yes, so I am on Instagram. Um, Facebook, I'm on
LinkedIn, all three of thoseplaces under positively in
pursuit. And I'm on LinkedInwith the positively in pursuit
page, but I also have my LisaAnderson page, so yeah, I hope

(55:17):
to connect with with folks. SoAngela will make sure I give you
all the links to all the pages,and then just one more thing. So
for 2025 I have a new webinarseries called Transform Your
journey from invisible toinfluential. And I last week, I

(55:38):
had my first webinar three stepsto becoming a more visible and
confident leader, and throughout2025 I'll be doing diff webinars
on different topics under thatseries. So be on the lookout for
that.

Okay, that's great. Well, thank you again.
Lisa,

Unknown (55:57):
thank you again. Angela, for part two. I hope I
get a part three. This is alwaysgreat. You gonna

be a regular? I see you being a regular. Lisa,
I'm ready.

Unknown (56:07):
Uh, I'm all there.

Alright. And to our listeners, thank you so much
for joining us today. And justas a reminder, our episodes are
released bi weekly on Wednesdayand available on your favorite
podcast platform. If you enjoyedthis episode, please share it
with someone who needs to hearit until next time. Take care.
Hey, fearless leaders, it's yourhost, Angela V Harris, and I

(56:32):
wanted to let you know that I'mcompeting in the 2025 Miss
corporate America competition asMiss Washington DC, the Miss
corporate America competitionrecognizes women who are
innovators and influencers intheir respective fields of
business. This is my firstcompetition, and I'm honored to

(56:54):
represent my hometown ofWashington, DC, and bring the
crown back to our city. I'mthrilled to introduce my pageant
platform accelerate herelevating black women in tech.
This initiative is dedicated toincreasing the representation
and advancement of black womenin the tech industry. I spent

(57:17):
over 20 years in corporateAmerica as a black woman in
tech, so this is deeply personalfor me. Here's how you can help.
First, vote for people's choice.When voting opens in April, your
vote will help me stand out andadvance in the competition.
Next, invite me to be a guest onyour podcast, webinar or event,

(57:43):
I love to share my platform andconnect with like minded
individuals passionate aboutdiversity in tech. Consider
becoming a sponsor. Your supportcan make a significant impact. I
invite you to join me at theMiss corporate America
competition in Orlando, Florida,taking place June 19 through the

(58:06):
21st seeing your face in theaudience would mean the world to
me if you're part of anorganization that supports
diversity, tech or mentorship,let's collaborate. Stay tuned to
the flow podcast for moreupdates on this journey. Or you
can follow my journey on mywebsite at Angela V harris.com

(58:30):
or on Instagram at coach AngelaV Harris. Thanks for your
support.
Thank you for listening to theflow podcast. As we wrap up
today's episode, always rememberyour unique path, your voice and

(58:52):
your leadership matter. If youloved what you heard. Subscribe
now to stay updated on ourlatest episodes. Take a moment
to leave a review and share thisepisode with someone who can
benefit from theseconversations. You can stay
connected with me on Instagramat the flow podcast with Angela,

(59:13):
or visit me on the web at AngelaV harris.com Until next time,
take care, stay inspired andkeep fearlessly leading in your
own way. You.

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