Ground Up 14: Legends From the Steep with Doug Reed

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
RobertOkay.
Doug ReedRight, you tell you told me that we we crossed paths out there at Endless Wall a few years ago.
Ari Grodeand don't know i don't
Ari GrodeYeah, yeah i was I was on a climbing trip with Bennett Harris and it was the first first time I'd ever climbed with him actually. I think we were about to leave Snake Butchers and we saw somebody trying the racist and you were standing there giving him some beta.

(00:25):
Doug ReedYeah. So, you know, um um since then I've changed the name of that ah that route.
Ari GrodeThat's right.
Doug ReedThat's now named confirmation.
Ari GrodeYup. Confirmation. Yup.
Doug ReedYep, um I don't think that had that actually occurred ah in conjunction with that route um ah with that trip.

(00:49):
Doug ReedYeah, um a friend of mine, Jamar Woods, and I discussed it um and I decided to change the name.
Ari GrodeReally.
Ari GrodeOkay.
Robertwhere did Where did confirmation come from?
Doug Reedum I would just, i like i usually with route names, I kind of go not so much with any kind of story or relating it back to the anything related to the route or anything so much as just the way I like, the way it sounds. But in that respect, I did like the way it sounded, but also in confirming his his feelings and thoughts about um about the original name. Yeah.

(01:33):
Doug ReedYeah. um And he's ah he's um he's he's a younger climber than me, but he's a guy that I mentored and taught how to trad climb and stuff. And he's he's been an important climbing friend in recent years.

(01:54):
Ari GrodeOh, very cool. Yeah, that's a cool story.
Doug ReedYeah. Yeah.
Ari GrodeYeah, that's, ah that's such a beautiful line. And it was funny here. And, uh, I think, I think the quote from you was the guy was working on one of the cruxes low on the route. And you said, I think I kind of maybe try to did it like this or something.
Ari GrodeAnd he stuck to move next go immediately.
Doug ReedYeah, yeah, I said you want some beta on that and he he kind of looks back like probably thinking like who's this old fucker?
Ari GrodeAnd you're like, yeah.

(02:19):
Doug ReedTell me how to do this move, you know and tell them exactly how to do it and he stuck it straight away, you know Yeah Yeah that um
Ari GrodeYeah, and and I think you i think you you looked at him and said, I think I saved you quite a bit of time on that and then kind of walked away. It was pretty amazing.
RobertThat's awesome.
Doug ReedThat's a pretty special zone right down in there and in my mind that that central endless right around the honeymooners ladders just about. just as good as it gets.

(02:50):
Doug ReedThere's there's so many just mega, mega classics right in there, you know, that being that being one of them for sure, you know, just to the left there dial 911 and facing it on the other side of that, of the ladder, you've got quinzana plus, ah satanic versus, you know, there's just unbelievable routes right in there.

(03:16):
Ari GrodeLegacy.
RobertYeah, i don't I don't think you're the only one that thinks that.
Ari GrodeYeah.
Doug ReedYeah.
RobertI mean, I know Chris Sharma called that route the the perfect rock climb, I believe. So you're certainly not the only one.
Doug ReedYeah, right. How's that for flattery? I gotta say.
Robertnot
Doug ReedYeah.
Ari GrodeIt's about the ultimate honor.
Robertyeah i love that much Yeah, that's pretty good. That's about as good as it gets, if you ask me.
Doug ReedYeah. Yeah. Yeah. As a matter of fact, but my friend Russ Clune, he really, he really had the eye for that line.

(03:37):
RobertDo you have
Doug ReedI thought that I I kind of thought that wall was kind of blank. And we were down there the previous season before I put it up. And he said, that that ought to be your that ought be your project next spring. And so he he kind of had the vision for it. And sure enough, it was it was the pride for the next season.

(04:05):
Ari GrodeOh, that's amazing. I mean, it is, it is a pretty blank looking wall. It's incredible. And it just glows in the light right there. I mean, it's, it's like pretty.
Doug Reedyeah It does.
Ari Grodeus Doug Reed It does. And and it's super aesthetic. um I like the kind of old school ah sport climbing bolt spacing on it.
Doug Reedyou know You got to get every one of those bolts solidly below your feet until you're clipping another one, you know and um which is you know is kind of old school, but I like it.

(04:26):
Ari Grodeme
Doug ReedI like it. I think it makes for um fuller experience for sure.
Ari GrodeDoug, I don't know if you follow any like climbing media, YouTube, or anything, but there was a recent video of that climb put out by, I think the channel's called like Brothers Climbing.

(04:53):
Doug Reedhere
Ari GrodeIt's an absolutely beautiful, like beautifully done video of that route. um It's about 10 minutes, and it's it's one of my favorite like short climbing films, but it's so beautifully shot, and it really captures you know the route, and then you realize how long it is.
Doug ReedI'll have to look for it.
Ari GrodeYou kind of think it's going to be over a couple times, and then they just keep going.
Doug ReedRight.

(05:14):
Ari Grodemoves all the way to the top. so
Doug ReedYeah, I'll have to look for that.
Ari Grodeyeah i'll i'll send I'll send you the link. It's it's pretty good. you'd you'd probably I don't know if you've seen that one, Rob, but it's you you'd like that too.
Robertof not know, but it sounds like sounds like we all need to add it to the list.
Ari GrodeFor sure.
RobertWhen when
Doug ReedHave you all done so some routes down in that zone?

(05:34):
Ari GrodeUh, on that trip that I was there with Bennett, um, we did legacy, which I fell off of as a warmup and then we did bullet the new sky, which was fantastic.
Doug ReedYeah.
Doug Reedit's ah That's a very aesthetic route.
Ari GrodeUh, I think. Oh yeah. I love a good erect climb. So that was fantastic. I can't remember. I think Bennett was trying some maybe Vulcan block or something else over there.

(05:58):
Doug ReedRight.
Ari GrodeAnd but then we ended up going to the bridge buttress later in the day.
Doug Reedye yep Yeah. Yeah.
Doug ReedYeah. Yeah. I kind of put up those two legacy and the one next to a discombobulated kind of is um mainly just, you know, to get a couple of good warmups right there for, for establishing those, those harder routes, you know, it's, it's kind of always part of my ah strategy is, you know, really developing like a,

(06:28):
Doug Reeda really complete kind of climbing area, which would include some good warm up routes as well as you know whatever the maybe harder routes are in there. And that was you know in keeping with that philosophy and developing that zone down in there.
Ari GrodeI think it may be considered one of the best pitches of 11A at the news, so and not not really just a warm up, like a very sought after tick for anyone pushing into the 511 range, that's for sure.

(06:51):
Doug ReedYeah, absolutely. Absolutely. you know and
Doug Reedyeah Yeah, and it was interesting in my mind in that that was really one of the first um sport routes that was being developed at the new where um we're putting putting bolts next to obvious gear placements. And um

(07:24):
Doug ReedAnd that, that was something new, you know, ah because in my climbing, you know, I went from starting climbing in 1973. So I was involved in climbing really through a lot of the transition from, you know, trad climbing, which back then was just called climbing because sport climbing didn't exist. And then moving on up through.

(07:53):
Doug Reedputting in more and more fixed gear, being pitons, hand drilling bolts and things like that, to ah sport climbing. ah Porter Girard and I did, we established the first sport climb at the New River Gorge, which is a route at Fern Point, Freaky Stylie, which was the first sport route fully equipped with top anchors. And then,

(08:19):
Doug Reedum And then eventually, like I said, if they were going to be sport rats, it's going to be all bolts, regardless if there was gear available or not, you know, which was, uh, you know, it's, that's a big step. It's something new, different. Yeah.

(08:40):
RobertWhat, I mean, you touched on a lot that I know we're certainly itching to circle back on, but to kind of lean into that a little bit more first, like what, what sort of prompted that for you and Porter and in terms of transition and like, okay, we could place gear over here, but this line, like we really want to climb this one.
RobertWe were going to put the bolts in. Like when, when did that sort of start becoming acceptable for you?

(09:01):
Doug ReedWell, well is we as we started doing harder and harder routes,
RobertAnd like, what was sort of the motivation for that or, Was it a little nervy when you guys were doing that at first?
Doug Reedthe availability of of clean gear was decreasing, right? And if we back up to like pre-power drill days, you know, it's so brutally physical to drill hand drill bolts that you just do anything you can to not have to hand drill a bolt. But as the routes got harder and harder, you know, you're banging in more and more peatons and hand drilling these like really ch crummy like little quarter inch inch and inch and a half long you know little bolts and stuff and there was just less and less you know clean gear you know and you'd end up with like you know half peatons and a couple of hand drilled bolts and maybe like

(10:12):
Doug Reedtwo pieces of gear, you know? And it just kind of got sort of silly to the point where, you know, and if you didn't know exactly what pieces are, you're taking a whole rack up there to place two cams or something, you know? Yes, it just got kind of ridiculous, you know? But you know it was a big jump to just start drilling bolts right next to gear placements, you know?

(10:41):
Doug Reedand and and I've done it.
Ari GrodeWas...
Doug ReedAnd and um I've kind of come full circle on that a bit in that I'm really into mixed routes. Now I mainly climb trad routes these days.
Doug Reedum I mean, I do some sport climbing. i'll I'll take a trip to the red and clip bolts and stuff. um you know But mainly I climb more trad and mixed stuff these days.

(11:11):
Doug Reedor maybe reflect even the gray.
Ari GrodeWhat was there? a
Ari GrodeYeah, curious. I mean, it seems like there's a lot of a lot of these different areas kind of have their own established ethic, you know, like perfect example of that is, ah you know, up in the peak district or the grit stone of the UK, you know, it's like, an it's an established ethic of absolutely no, no drilling bolts. And then, you know, every different area seems to have its own kind of ethic that's either developed or evolved over time. I mean, was there kind of an established ethic at the new at the time? Or was the community small enough that it was kind of you guys were you guys were establishing that ethic as you went.

(11:47):
Doug Reedwe were We were making the ethic for sure. We were making the ethic for sure. um That would have been more significant just before I moved and to live at the New River Gorge. And I was living here in North Carolina. There were a lot of people that were you know really trying to dictate to others how they ought to climb and in what style and stuff like that. But I really, for the most part,

(12:13):
Doug Reedum I didn't pay much attention to that. I was just like, Hey guys, I'm, I'm kind of the top dog around here. I'll do whatever I want. You know, you can say whatever you want. And I was pretty blunt about it, you know, make, you know, cast whatever judgment they wanted. Cause I, you know, not only was I putting in a lot of bolts, I put up speaking in terms of no in North Carolina, you know, I put up routes harder and bolder than anybody else around here. So.

(12:45):
Doug Reedwhatever, I could do whatever I wanted.
Roberti think I think that's a fair assessment if you ask me, but obviously I wasn't around.
Doug ReedYou know, because before, you know, in the year, couple of years before I moved away from North Carolina, um primarily with good good climbing partner, good dude, who's really good friends with still now Tim Fisher, he and I are doing,
Robertbut um no

(13:13):
Doug ReedWe were doing the hardest and boldest ground up stuff that had ever been done in North Carolina. And like that year before I moved away from here, Tim and I did a stack of like really respectable ground up stuff.
Doug Reedum Some of which
Ari GrodeYeah, actually.
Doug Reedhas not even been repeated and some are very seldom repeated. As a matter of fact, um ah the sixth ascent was just done a couple weeks ago of a row of fires at Moore's Wall called Plastic Cat.

(13:48):
Doug ReedAnd it was actually has now been upgraded by a letter. It's now 12CX. And, um you know, that would just be a perfect example of just like some pretty badass ground up stuff.
Ari Grodeyou You want to, like, what what is going ground up on a 12CX root like? can you take ah Can you take us through that process a little bit?

(14:13):
Doug ReedYeah, I mean, it's in and that's with no preview. And above those six, um still only my first ascents, the only true ground up non-previewed ascent. So all five of those others. And actually, i'm I'm going to back up and not to take anything away from Tim, because cause I still stand by the fact that he and I were doing a lot of really great ground up stuff.

(14:43):
Doug ReedThat was actually Porter. That would be have been the exception. Porter and I did that. um And Porter followed the first ascent and then came back and did the second ascent. So he had followed it and so had knowledge of the route. So back to your question though, like 12CX, I mean, you you got to go at it with some certainly with some commitment. um you know But tempering that commitment, you know, because you can't just dive into that and get too deep and take the ground fall or you can, but better not, you know, because I, and I had kind of forgotten what the gear was like, but, um, that, uh, that recent ascent, the assertion was in the first 45 feet, there was one nut and one ball nut.

(15:38):
Doug Reedin 45 feet and I would not have had a ball nut, would not have had a ball nut. That's another thing to keep in mind about a lot of ah lot of a sense that I had in the in the those on those kind of bolder ground up is depending on how far back you go, I might not have had really small cams.

(16:05):
Ari GrodeYeah, gear has certainly evolved over over the last couple of decades.
Doug ReedYeah, yeah. um You know, there was there was a.
RobertYeah, well we had Tim, ah we had Tim on and he said, I was just gonna say Tim, Tim, when he was on, I was like, yeah, we had the the one, two and three friend and we did a lot with just those three cams and the rest was kind of everything read assessed in that.
Doug ReedYeah.
Doug ReedYep, exactly. And I got it the next a gear development phase beyond that is I got a couple of kind of quote homemade like, you know, garage machine shop made.

(16:39):
Doug Reed0.5 half sizes and that was when wild country didn't even make anything smaller than the one and I shared that with Tim and Tim and I had those homemade half sizes and Even still that's not very small You know ah Yeah, so there's a lot of stuff where
Ari GrodeNo. A lot of people could do that at a pretty big cam.

(17:03):
Doug Reeduh maybe you had an r and x grade on stuff way back when which maybe is not there anymore but plastic cat certainly is still Yeah, still, still x-rated for sure.
Doug ReedYeah. So you got to, got to temper that with, you know, not just charging in and getting too deep and end up taking the ground fall. Um, yeah. So it's, it's spooky.

(17:30):
Doug ReedIt's spooky, but it's a full experience. It is a very full experience.
Ari GrodeWhat
Doug Reedthat
RobertYeah, I can imagine.
Doug ReedYou know,
RobertI mean, it's it's funny, like the the point three is sort of like my comfort piece, right?
Ari Grodeabout that?
RobertIf I put that in, ah in I'm like mentally, I'm good. I can go. So it's funny to me even just imagine not even racking up with one of them, let alone two. But when you're looking at that, that yeah.

(17:51):
Doug ReedYeah, yeah, you're you're right. you know The comfort of knowing you got in your quiver, you got that 0.3 or like the latest, you got that black totem, man. That's just like a blanket, like comforting to know you got that in the quiver.
Robertfor
Doug Reedyeah
RobertFor sure, for sure. So when you're looking up at Glassescat, did you have an idea, like, oh, this might be a little this might be a little X, or were you like, oh, this looks like a fun line. I think it'll be a good time. And then you'd kind of figure it out along the way, like, oh, there's not not a lot of gear on this thing.

(18:26):
Doug ReedI would have to say probably I thought there was going to be better gear. I think if I knew how shitty the gear would have been, I would have been kind of foolish to have gone up there.
Doug Reedum So I just just deal with it. you know um But probably I thought there would be better gear.
RobertYep.

(18:46):
Ari GrodeYeah, that
Doug ReedYeah.
Ari GrodeYeah, that's an interesting phenomenon because you're the only person, like when the route hasn't been established, nobody knows kind of the one, the difficulty into the danger element of it.
Ari GrodeSo growing ground up, the only person who experienced that.
Doug ReedRight, everybody else behind that knows. They know, you know, they know.
Robertyeah
Ari GrodeYeah.

(19:08):
Doug ReedAnd thus, that's why everybody else is at minimum repelled it and looked at it. I know one person did that.
Doug ReedAnd then everybody else climbed it, you know, um either like Porter following me on it, or yeah, just head pointed, top roped it. Yeah, Greg Loomis is the guy that did it most recently.

(19:33):
Doug ReedAnd Greg is hats off middle-aged guy that's probably doing about the hardest trad in North Carolina right now.
Doug ReedReal respectable. he's He's doing some good stuff, both repeats and first ascends.
Ari GrodeYeah.

(19:53):
Ari Grodeyeah yeah Yeah, Greg gave us some some great photos of Tim when we put out his episode, and certainly somebody we'd love to chat with.
Doug ReedYeah.
Doug ReedY'all done done an episode with Greg or him Nice nice Yeah, you guys ought to check in with Greg he's doing some cool stuff very much so Yeah, I'll do that
Robertwith Tim, but Greg had photos of Tim.
Ari GrodeNo, with Tim. but tim
RobertSo that was helpful in terms of just like putting out the social media stuff. Yeah.

(20:14):
Ari GrodeYeah, i I'd love to get him on, so if you if you wouldn't mind giving him a nudge.
Robertyeah
RobertLove it. So when, when you were, I mean, I think there's probably a lot of things we want to chat about, but I just, I'm, I am fascinated with like, the kind of that world of, oh, like kind of figuring out, oh, this might be X halfway up the route, right?

(20:37):
RobertSo did you find yourself, I mean, obviously you put up probably more routes than anybody in North Carolina or in the Southeast. So when you were, I mean, I would certainly love that, but my question was going to be, did, did I, yeah, that, that is just incredible to even wrap your head around.
Doug ReedDo you want to know about how many? In in excess in excess of 600.

(20:58):
RobertThere's a lot of people that will never even hold on to 600.
Doug Reedand And that would include that would include um doing routes in north carolina first since in North Carolina, West Virginia, Kentucky, Alabama, and then sprinkle in a few out West. um one and One in the Black Canyon, I was pretty proud of.

(21:19):
Doug ReedOne in Yosemite, some in Colorado. So yeah, that's that's the that's the ballpark number.
RobertYeah. Yeah. It's incredible. I was going to ask in like, cause obviously you shifted into, you had different phases, right? Where you're kind of focused more on trad or focused more on sport climbing and all of that. But especially like in the, I guess the trad areas, did you prefer like the bolder, spicier ones? You know, like obviously you mentioned you and Tim and Porter were putting up like the hardest stuff in North Carolina. So no one could really talk talk down on your ethics or anything like that, or did you prefer the ones that were a little more straightforward?

(21:54):
RobertLike, was there a preference or was it just like, that's a beautiful line, I want to climb it.
Doug Reeda Not so much a preference, but as the grades progressed, it just naturally became the nature of those routes because the availability of trad gear became less available.

(22:20):
Doug ReedIt wasn't like following a crack up a wall and you knew you were gonna eat gear. It's heading up on overhanging face climbs. you know Maybe it's there, maybe it's not.
RobertYeah.
Doug ReedSo just the the the type of climbs, overhanging face climbs, you're just not gonna get that much gear. And you know I was,

(22:46):
Doug ReedI was banging in pens to try to avoid having to hand drill bolts for sure, but I'd hand drill some bolts, you know, and generally that was stuff off.
Doug Reedum off hooks because it was steep um you know over here in western north carolina where i'm now which where the climbing trended more towards slab climbing i'd do that off free stances but obviously you don't get a free stance on overhanging face and i trended toward climbing

(23:16):
RobertRight.
Doug Reedsteep stuff, you know, quartzite, not granite slab, like over a looking glass and, you know, white sides and stuff. And there's there's steep stuff over there.
Doug ReedBut back in in that era, people were climbing slab, you know, they were standing on their feet big time.
Ari GrodeThank you.

(23:38):
Doug ReedAnd like what Tim and Porter and I were doing, Porter's a good bit younger than me and Tim, um but, you know, we were climbing overhanging fakes.
Doug ReedAnd that that that's excitement, you know moving up on overhanging face with looking to fish in.
Ari Grodeyeah so some of those routes

(23:59):
Doug Reedah a hook placement somewhere and tagline the drill up is pretty wild stuff. Like you take something like hanging chain at Roaming Bald, you know, you climb up a natural feature, you know, for whatever, like 75 feet.
Ari GrodeYeah, some of those routes.

(24:21):
Doug ReedAnd then you break out of that up onto overhanging face and you're looking to, you're looking to, catch a hook and put something in, you know, drill a bolt. It's pretty wild. It's pretty wild. And that route in particular had a bolt added to that head wall. I originally placed off hooks on lead three bolts and somebody added, Chris Doherty added a bolt up there that's now been removed.

(24:58):
Doug Reedperfectly knowing that that was stylistically, completely unacceptable. But that's been removed. But that' that's a heck of a route. you know And oh I don't know if you've seen in the guidebook, Harrison Shull's guidebook, he kind of talked some shit about that route and that and he he really I think unfairly characterized it because that was a really hard route and I employed a technique that some people would call an Australian slingshot in that we were working that really hard and I even left the rope up overnight through the top piece of gear and came back and climbed on it again

(25:45):
Doug ReedAnd the first time I got to the top of that was with the rope having hung overnight. but And so he's talked some shit about it and said, oh, that wasn't the first ascent. Well, no, it wasn't the first ascent exactly. But I went back and I climbed that thing three times totally clean before anybody else ever did it. So he didn't really have any room to talk any smack about it.

(26:09):
Doug ReedRight? um the Is that kind of extreme measures leaving the rope up overnight? Yeah, I would say that's a big jump. But you know, and that's the kind of the way I was, you know, I've kind of made up my own rules. I didn't wouldn't let anybody else dictate what I was doing. And I was always real straightforward about how and what I was doing there. But yeah, I went back and climbed several times totally clean before anybody else ever did it.

(26:37):
Doug ReedAnd um yeah, so. Hey, I don't think you really had any room to, you know, try to cast any in and dispersions on the on the ascent, really. like
RobertYeah, I mean if you're if you're not doing the work to put it up, I feel like all ah all comments go out the door until you're the one taking it down, I guess.

(26:58):
Doug ReedYeah, but that that's a heck of a pitch.
Robertah
Doug Reedare Are you all familiar with that? That section of Waller at at Roland Balderal?
RobertAri's climbed over there quite a bit, I believe.
Doug ReedYeah,
Ari GrodeYeah, and and we chatted with Tim and quite a bit on the hanging chain.
Doug Reedon
Ari GrodeHe was talking us through. He said that was an amazing process. you know I think it was the rear view, just pushing that thing as high as you could go.
Doug Reedyeah you know, and and as I kind of started pushing, as I started kind of pushing the boundaries of technique and stuff like that, Tim was, he kind of went along with it for a little bit.

(27:30):
Doug ReedAnd then the sport climbing thing was just a jump too far. he he just went he couldn And I respect that. That's great. I love the style he's putting up roots in these days. And um that was just too much. and And I'm sure when I was saying like, yeah, let's just leave the rope up overnight. I'm sure he was having some uneasiness about that.

(27:54):
Doug Reedi was I was just about at the limit of what he could could ah could tolerate. for but but
Ari GrodeYeah, I think he made a comment, ah you know, saying that he was absolutely a staunch traditionalist and then climbing with you expanded his ah his ethical mindset just a little bit.
Doug Reedyeah
Ari Grodeah
Doug ReedAnd he's still, he's got his rules and he plays by his rules, you know, but, you know, like he's developed some, like I checked in with him, I think one Sunday evening, like, oh, you know, give him a call, like what went down this weekend, you know, blah, blah, blah.

(28:35):
Doug ReedAnd he's like, oh, the weather wasn't so good. I went out and did some bulk maintenance and glued some holes and shit like that. I was like, whoa, what? What? Glued some holes? What the fuck are you talking about?
Robertah yeah that' my That's awesome.
Doug ReedGlued some holes.
Doug ReedSo he has had some progression for sure. um

(28:55):
Ari GrodeYeah.
Doug Reedyeah
Ari GrodeWell, it seems like, you know, I kind of want to bring it back a little bit to a little bit more of your climbing background. And and I'd also like to hear about some of these, you know, it's, you've mentioned linking up with Tim, linking up with Porter and, you know, diving into that scene, but like, who were some of the,
Ari Grodeearly climbing partners and some of the mentors and that you were climbing with as you progress towards some of the things we're talking about, plastic cat hanging chain. ah you You mind kind of diving into some of that background?

(29:27):
Doug ReedWell first first and foremost would definitely be my brother Maurice. My brother Maurice and I moved to Colorado pretty soon after high school and we were enrolled in university but we skipped a lot of classes and did a lot of rock climbing.
Robertmuch.

(29:48):
Doug ReedBy the time I moved away from Colorado, I had done not first ascents, don't get me wrong, not first ascents, but I was really learning how to rock climb. And I had done ah hunt over 100 routes in Eldorado. Every spring, the day after school was out, we'd have the Volkswagen van packed up and we'd be heading to the valley, stay in the valley for months, six weeks until it got too hot. you know So we were really learning how to climb.

(30:16):
Doug ReedAnd I moved to, because i was of a girl I was dating, only reason you do something so insane, I moved to North Carolina. And and when I moved to North Carolina, because of the having that Colorado and Yosemite background, I was climbing harder than anybody was over here in North Carolina. So it was just like field day.

(30:41):
Doug Reedand There were people like Tommy Howard, super generous and cut my learning curve a lot by being really generous about here's where the rock is and here's where the routes are. So I didn't just have to like pull out topo maps and go sniffing this stuff out. He was just, he and Lee Carter, those guys are super generous um about,

(31:04):
Doug ReedTurning me on the stuff and they were only climbing really only up to about a 510 grade so when I moved here and I was climbing 511 and did the first 512 in North Carolina, there was just There was so much stuff and back to the takes circling that back to the new I went to time to the new with Tommy and um And once again climbed the very first 511 ever done. It's near regards, you know, so there was just climbing just a little bit harder than the other guys around this area.

(31:38):
Doug ReedThere was just stacks of stuff to do. Yeah. But yeah, my brother and I, back to your question, we did a ton of climbing together.
Ari GrodeOkay, and so when did...
RobertYeah, it's, it's kind of wild.
Ari GrodeOkay, and this is an older brother, younger brother?
RobertYeah.
Doug Reedum He's 11 months older than me and you'll see him credited with some first ascents when he'd come he'd still be living in in Colorado and he made a few trips back to North Carolina and we did some good hard stuff if you guys climb at Shiprock So you'll see his
Ari GrodeWow, okay.

(32:03):
RobertYep.
Robertyep
Ari GrodeOh yeah.
Doug Reedum his name coming first in the guidebook on first ascents like anguish of Captain Bligh, patio roof.

(32:25):
Ari GrodeYeah.
Doug Reedum you know So we we're doing some stout routes and you'll see most of the most of the stuff at ship that's harder than 5'10", he and I put those first ascents up. that That whole zone from gunfighter all the way over to chromium chain, we did all those, every one of them.

(32:57):
Doug ReedGunfighter, revival, jingoist, razor boy, that that all of them just, yeah.
Ari Grodebe I'd be curious to ask, I mean, to were those kind of lines? ah did Did people think, oh, these are too blank, they'll never go? Or did it take you and Maurice kind of kind of look at that and say, I think there's something here.

(33:19):
Doug Reedpretty Pretty much to a great extent. gras yeah to to a great extent. I mean, those are those are hard routes. Those are hard routes. um You know, even even the 511 ones, I mean,
Ari GrodeOkay.
Doug ReedGum fighters, a hard 5'11". Have you done that?
Ari GrodeYeah, actually I recently did that, uh, this last October, September sometime this fall.

(33:40):
RobertNo
Doug ReedYeah.
Ari GrodeUh, yeah, that's an amazing pit.
Doug ReedWell, you may or may not have known of kind of a infamous free solo.
Ari GrodeYeah. So hard and blank and a little spicy.

(34:01):
Doug ReedI free soloed that barefoot.
RobertI, we were going to ask about that.
Doug ReedAnd that that is that is that is very true.
RobertWe weren't sure.
Doug Reedthere That's not just that's ah you know legend or whatever, or maybe it is, but it's 100% true. Yeah.
RobertWhat was that like and what, what, how did that come about?
Ari GrodeOkay. Yeah.
Doug Reedit was it It was fucking totally chill. It was totally chill. I got up, pulled pulled the little overhang, leaned in real close to the wall, and dipped in the chalk bag, put put some chalk on each big toe, reached up and grabbed those crimps and just bared down like a motherfucker. And it it happened. you know it it was not It wasn't scary. It wasn't exciting. or it was it was It was totally zen. It was the way it needed to be. But its looking back on it, that's fucking hairball.

(34:58):
Doug Reedthat's
Ari GrodeYeah.
Doug Reedit It kind of almost makes me a little nauseous to think about it.
Ari Grodeand No kidding.
Robertwhere were Were there a lot of barefoot free solos in your time?
Ari GrodeI mean.
Doug Reedi've I've done a lot of barefoot free soloing, not stuff that hard.
RobertOkay.
Doug ReedAnd because of the nature of those footholds, that makes it especially hard to to get your footing on that. um

(35:27):
RobertIt's pretty thin, isn't it?
Doug Reedah It's really thin, really thin. um
Doug Reedand And not by any means my heart is free solo, because I'm free solo 5-12 grade, um but certainly a proud moment, certainly a proud moment for sure.

(35:52):
Ari GrodeSo how did you kind of...
Roberti'd be I'd be incredibly proud if i if I rocked up to that without any shoes and just took it down, absolutely.
Doug ReedYeah. And the other one that I mentioned up the way there, that um ah ah um anguish, I did a free solo barefoot of that as well.
Doug ReedThose those two are probably the hardest barefoot free solos I ever did. Yeah.

(36:15):
Ari Grodeand Okay, an anguish is not my...
Doug Reedum I'll say yes, they were. Definitely.
Ari GrodeAnguished is always one that's got me. I've fallen, I've one hung that thing like, I don't know, 10 times now. its But it's always getting that cam in that that gets me kind of pumped. ah But.
Doug ReedYou know, and as I get older, I kind of keep, you know, letting grades kind of creep, but these days it feels darn near 512 to me.

(36:44):
Ari GrodeYou're helping my ego a little bit.
RobertWell, Ari, if you just, Ari, if you just took the shoes off and didn't bring the rack, it wouldn't be that hard.
Doug Reedhey
RobertIf the problem is you getting the camera, in no big deal, dude.
Doug ReedYeah.
Ari GrodeRight. Yeah.
Doug ReedYeah.
Ari GrodeIt's all the, it's all this stuff.
Doug Reedlight Lighten your load, right? Yeah.
Ari GrodeYeah. I mean, so what put you down that, church I mean, when did you start kind of doing some of these, what put you down the trajectory of doing a lot of bold climbing, like free throwing that hard?
Doug Reedi started I started doing a lot of free soloing when I was in eldora and ah climbing in El Dorado, primarily, when I lived in Colorado. And I do big free solos, like all the way up the Red Guard wall, what is that thing, like 800 feet?

(37:15):
Doug ReedAnd i'd I'd go climb all over that thing. Sometimes barefoot, sometimes with shoes, but yeah, climb all over that, mainly moderate stuff. um Back then I was mainly climbing
Ari GrodeYeah.
Doug Reeda free solo in like five, nine and below, you know, but, but still pretty tall red guard wall, you know, it's pretty big, you know, it's not big wall, but you know, I think it's what seven or eight hundred feet.

(37:41):
Doug Reedum So when I moved to North Carolina, I had, I had done a lot of free solos and a couple of my hardest free solos, it would have been a good bit after I initially moved to North Carolina would have been out at
Ari Grodeyeah
Doug Reedwhat was kind of like my home crag because i lived in charlotte crowders mountain which is not a very good crag but there are some high quality routes out there and that's why i did my first 512 free solo and to this day i was asking robert hutchins um and tim about it and and they think uh this um Shane ko Coburn route, which is a real masterpiece of his, called Skunk Pie out there, which is 12B. That was my first 512 free solo. And it seems kind of crazy to even think about this, but when I free soloed that, the hardest thing that I'd ever read pointed was probably 12C.

(38:52):
Doug ReedSo we're talking about a letter grade margin, which is razor thin.
RobertThat's wild.
RobertWhat, what kind of like, I guess, why were you free soloing at such a close like range? Like, cause you've talked about a lot of times you were kind of way below, like you're kind of the moderates.

(39:13):
RobertWhat kind of like motivated you to, to kind of close that gap?
Doug ReedYou know, I'd spent a lot of time out there. It's a brilliant route. And, you know, I would i was I was a real testosterone charged, like competitive asshole back then. And Shane had snagged this just brilliant route. And ah to be ah to be brutally honest, back in those days, I would have been pissed that he snagged that route, that he got that, that got away from me. And I'll be damned, I was going to go fucking free solo that because he snagged it.

(39:57):
Doug ReedYou know, and I would have nightmares about that.
Ari Grodetake it up a notch
Doug ReedLike, I'm gonna go fucking free solo that thing.
Robertas As I, that's awesome. I mean, I think that just the competitive aspect of that, like I i played, uh, soccer for a long time in college and everything afterwards. And then like, so the the competitive nature that I got, I feel like that's something that sometimes climbing lacks.

(40:22):
RobertSo it's kind of fun when you hear stories about it, like, Oh no, it was, it was very, very much a part of the the community and the culture, but was, did you dial it in beforehand or was it like, ah, I've kind of gone up at once.
Ari GrodeTake it up a notch.
Doug ReedOh, it was super dialed. It was super dialed.
RobertOkay.
Doug ReedI probably top-roped that thing. I'd let it, but I'd probably top-roped it at least a couple of dozen times. It's really, really dialed. Really dialed. But oh, back to what I was saying, tim according to Tim and Robert Hutchins, that's never been free soloed again. And and like Robert's free soloed a lot of stuff out there at Crowder's. And that was one reason it came up, because I was asking Robert not so much to challenge him. We're real good friends. um Because I kind of thought he may have free soloed it. But he said, no, he had not. He had not.

(41:14):
Doug Reedum And I did my next 512 free solo out there, um another 12B called Fashion, which...
Ari GrodeSo did.
Doug Reedum
Doug ReedI didn't like get rattled or super scared, but it wasn't as dialed. I hadn't done it as many times, and it's probably harder and more insecure than skunk pie.

(41:43):
Doug Reedum
Doug ReedBut i didn' i didn't get I didn't get rattled, but it we i I was maybe a little anxious for a moment.
Ari Grodenot Did that like change, I mean, i did that change the course of did did eventually you kind of stop free soloing or did did you, was there a moment where you're kind of like, I'm reaching the edge here.
Doug Reedit ah Eventually, no not not really. I started doing fewer like 512 free solos.

(42:13):
Doug ReedThough i do i've done a so I used to have some pretty impressive or I thought impressive kind of free solo routines that I would do at the it's the new.
Ari Grodeand Okay.
Doug ReedLike I i do
Doug ReedI'd go to the bridge butchers and I had a pretty good routine of stuff I would do there up to like, the harder end of that routine would be stuff like handsome and well hung and marionette.

(42:46):
Doug ReedDo you know marionette? 11, 11 seat.
Ari GrodeI know handsome and well- I know handsome and well-hung.
Doug ReedHanson-Manuel Hung, and then back over left of their marionette.
Ari GrodeI belated Buddy on that.
Doug ReedAnd the one free solo that just haunted me, I always wanted to put it in the mix for the Bridge Butchers routine, but never pull the trigger on it.

(43:09):
Doug Reedis Agent Orange, which is a fantastic trad route over there. And I thought about it and thought about it. It just never, never pulled the trigger on it.
Doug ReedIt had just enough lacking and confidence about it to never, never strap it on.
Ari GrodeJust kind of insecure or.
Doug ReedI wish I had, I wish I had, but just never did.

(43:33):
Ari GrodeIt's just too insecure or.
Doug Reeda i would i I would grade that route 11D and I just wouldn't want to climb quite that hard with no rope anymore.
Ari GrodeOkay.
Doug Reedum Probably my proudest, not necessarily hardest, but probably my proudest free solo at the new is um leave it to Jesus out at endless wall.

(43:53):
Ari GrodeGotcha.
Doug Reedwhich is an awesome 511 trad route.
Ari GrodeOkay.
Doug ReedIf you've never done that, one of the best of the grade at the new.
Ari GrodeI haven't.

(44:14):
Doug ReedUnbelievably good, really good.
RobertIf I was to check it out.
Ari GrodeYeah, amazing.
RobertWere, were you, I was just going to ask was, were you like super stoked on free soloing or was it just part of like the climbing that you were doing?
Ari GrodeThat's

(44:36):
RobertDid you prefer to kind of push the grade in terms of first of sense that you were putting up?
Doug ReedUm, even when I was doing a lot of first descent, I'd have some free solo days. It probably became less of a focus though.
Doug ReedUm, mainly because, um, mainly because I was working so hard.
Ari Grodeand and what time

(45:01):
Doug ReedPardon me. I'm getting getting a cup of coffee. Um, when I, when I was in full sport climbing route production mode,
RobertNo, you're good.
Doug Reedwhen it was basically a full-time job for me.
Doug ReedRest days didn't really exist. Rest day meant that I was out cutting trails and drilling routes. ay So when I was kind of at the highest level of route production, I probably could have been climbing a little harder if I hadn't had to work so hard on off days. Because it was those days were full day of labor, you know, full manual labor. um But that's what it's like to be

(45:54):
Doug Reedin a place where, like there were several years there where I would do as many as 100 first ascents in a year. That's a lot of work.
Ari GrodeOh my God.
Doug ReedLike I've, and I've even, it this this this is for my recollection, this only happened once, but I have drilled and climbed as many as three sport routes in a day.
Ari Grodebut
Robertyeah

(46:23):
Doug Reedthat's a That's a lot of work.
RobertOh my goodness. That is a lot of work.
Doug ReedThat's a that's a ton of work.
Ari GrodeYeah.
Robertare Ari and I have one first ascent together in North Carolina at Sour Town and we used a hammer drill and I think it took us like three days together.
Doug ReedUh-huh, uh-huh.
RobertSo it's like the idea of putting up a hundred routes in one year is, I mean, there's a lot of oppressive things, but that is that is certainly on the list as well. That's that's incredible.

(46:49):
RobertWhat was, you kind of mentioned like you're sort of,
Doug ReedWell, I mean, that that's when that's when I was climbing full time. I mean, i in in in that um period, i I would consider myself a professional climber.
Ari GrodeHa ha ha.
Doug ReedThat was my job. you know So that's what I had to do.
RobertYeah, I was going to ask about that. Like were you, were you, I mean, were you making money off of climbing at that point or were you having to do other work to support yourself and then just loading up?

(47:16):
Doug ReedI was, it was, it was real dirtbag, but yeah, yeah. I i was able to, um you know, I was able to live off of it. Yeah.
RobertCan you, I'm sure there's a lot of people that'd be fascinated to hear like kind of in that era, like what was, what was like,
Ari GrodeSo.

(47:37):
RobertWhat were a little more of the details about like kind of a base, basically being a professional climber at that time, like what was logistically.
Doug ReedWell, I mean, I had different arrangements with different manufacturers and whatnot as far as like, you know, so fairly meager stipend or a photo credit bonus. Like that was one of the arrangements I had with 510. 510 was a super long time sponsor of mine. And that was when 510 was something other than what it is now.

(48:09):
Doug ReedYou know, that was kind of the brand, um which is definitely not the case now. You know, because I would have a lot of pick very regularly pictures of me climbing ah climbing first ascent in climbing and rocking ice. And they they had a picture in there, then they'd send me a check, meaning 5.10. Or um one of my best sponsors um ever, because it was For me, it was pretty easy to get free gear, but once you get beyond that just always kind of cool to get free gear, you need cash.

(48:45):
Doug ReedYou need a way to like pay your rent and buy a beer at the end of the day. And that's the hard part.
Ari Grodebut
Doug ReedAnd I've explained that to some friends that would like to make the jump to being a, quote, professional climber. It's like, free gear is fine, but those are just shiny little objects. You need cash.
Doug Reedyou know And you're not really a professional climber until somebody's going to give you some money. you know and And so that's a jump. One of my best cash-wise sponsors was actually a company based in North Carolina, which was a um ah sock company, Thorlo Socks. And it was a North Carolina sock mill. And that was one of my one of my best sponsors as far as you know good, regular, monthly cash.

(49:33):
Doug Reedyeah coming in. But it it was pretty dirtbag. It was certainly not anything like what professional climbers can make now, you know. Like you'll hear Alex Hoddle talk about, not to put myself in his league by any means, you know, saying that his compensation is about like a ah ah ah a fairly well compensated dentist. Mine wasn't anything like that.

(50:04):
Doug ReedYeah. Okay. Yeah. there Yeah. So you've heard it.
Doug ReedYeah.

(50:32):
Doug ReedYeah, I mean no certainly that Yeah, yeah and and that was that was part of the basis for the sponsorship for sure because I was never climbing the absolute hardest of Anybody let's just say in the United States never I was within a couple of letter grades or so, but but I it was you know doing significant climbing, whether that's first ascent, free solos. I've very seldom ever let anybody take pictures of me doing free solos. Back in the day when they're, I don't know if you guys would remember, they people used to come out with the climbing calendars, you know and they'd have like really

(51:16):
Doug Reedlike um Like Kevin Powell used to do a calendar every year. And there were a couple of those calendars that had some free solo shots on it. But for the most part, I would never get into that. I just needed to keep that motivation on the free solo stuff like really pure, not let it get intermingled with compensation and ego and stuff like that. you know i' In my mind, if it It could go in a bad direction if that got intermingled with with the free soloing.

(51:51):
Ari GrodeYeah, that was kind of a kind of a personal thing, I guess.
Doug ReedYeah.
Doug ReedYeah. Yeah. there's There's some people that I think have drifted in that other direction, motivation-wise, with free soloing that are no longer with us.
Ari GrodeYeah.
Doug ReedAnd thank goodness that's not me.
Ari GrodeYeah. Yeah, that's a that's a fine line to to walk. That's for sure.

(52:14):
Doug ReedYeah, yeah. Something I was going to say, I was kind of starting to launch into a minute ago and got distracted, you know, is relating to the New River Gorge. I mentioned that Tommy Howard, and I went up there first with Tommy Howard, because Tommy had been up there before me, and

(52:40):
Doug ReedAnd he put me on to it and we started going up there because there's really kind of two distinct phases of route development at the new. There was that early on phase in like the early to mid 80s.
Doug Reedpre-sport climbing, pre-power drill, et cetera. We climbed a ton of first descents. Like sometimes we'd go, I think we had one day, we did like three mega classic trad route first descents at Beauty Mountain, like in one day, you know? um But once the what's the natural kind of lines were done, we were kind of finished. And I came back to, I wasn't living up there, but I came back home to North Carolina and just didn't go up there for years. Didn't go up there for for years until we got got a power drill. And that was when, I've told people this many, many times, that was when like,

(53:40):
Doug ReedYou know, we could probably take this power drill back up there in newer regards and some of that blank rock that we were seeing before might not be as blank as we thought it was. And that's exactly what we did. And that was the next phase. Like I said, Porter porter got a power drill before me.
Doug ReedAnd we started putting up routes down here, you know, some stuff like channel 12 out there, um, uh, sour town and stuff like that. And, um, yeah, we took the power drill up there to the new and did the very first, you know, uh, sport route up there, you know, that freaky style out there, uh, for important.

(54:20):
Doug ReedAnd so that was phase two, and it was wide open.
Ari GrodeYeah.
Doug Reedwe There were guys, ah Rick Thompson, Eric Hurst, and there were a crew of people that were just ravin' us for first ascent to be down there every weekend.
Doug Reedputting up first ascents there'd be who knows like between all the really uh you know avid first ascensionist uh mike arts and eddie bagoon those guys they were on it every weekend and you know hell you know a dozen to two dozen first ascents would go up in that in that region every weekend just about you know it's crazy

(55:04):
Ari GrodeYeah, I wanted to ask.
Doug Reedyeah I was.
Ari GrodeYeah.
Doug ReedYeah, absolutely. like Absolutely. like
Ari GrodeI wanted to, I wanted to ask, can you set the stage about what the New River Gorge was like back in those days? I mean, nowadays we know it as, you know, it's got great trails and great access and all these campgrounds and there's a whole community that's been built around it.

(55:25):
Ari GrodeBut I mean, what did it, what did it kind of look like, especially back when, you know, people were just establishing trad lines.
Doug ReedWell, none ah none of that infrastructure was there. if If you wanted there to be an access trail, you'd go cut that access trail. If you wanted ladders to get down to the base of the wall at Central Endless, you'd go out there and build those fricking ladders.

(55:48):
Doug Reedum Yeah, I mean, there weren't any parking lots. You just park on the shoulder of the road and cut a trail in there. you know um and And there'd be phases, we we'd discover a zone and just like, it'd just blow up. And there'd be times when, you know, there'd be some, there'd,

(56:10):
Doug Reedah be some lack of sharing if you found ah found a really good spot, right? and And that was kind of the way with with Central Endless, man, that area around the honeymooners ladder, you know, there were some good climbers that were really doing a lot of stuff and they were out there at like Bubba City. and And I was just like, yeah, you guys just stay over there at Bubba City. I was like doing some work over here at Central Endless for a little bit.

(56:46):
Doug ReedYeah, yeah, yeah.
Ari GrodeI mean, what what was, what was that like?
Doug ReedBut ah there were a lot of routes going up.
Ari GrodeI mean, what was it like? Did you guys realize how much of a gem it was that you were working with? Like that rock is, you know, God's rock. It's some of the best rock on the planet.
Ari Grodeum You know, what was that?
Doug ReedYeah, no, no, I felt very privileged.
Ari GrodeWhat was that like looking up at that?

(57:07):
Doug ReedYeah, very privileged for sure. you know And um you know I don't know how forward thinking Uh, we were, or the climbing equipment manufacturers were, you know, because initially there, that was before, or it's when gym climbing was just starting. Some of it, the first, our first sport climbs were just before gym climbing started or almost like coincided, but that's what,

(57:44):
Doug ReedBetween development of sport climbing areas and gym climbing is what made climbing blow up. It made climbing what it is now. It made the numbers of climbers, whether they're gym climbers, outdoor climbers,
Doug Reedgo up by a factor of probably 10, right? And that's what allowed a bunch of climbing equipment manufacturers to make money, gems to open up and make money. It was it was the gems and the explosion of sport climbing, right? If it had stayed, tried climbing,

(58:26):
Doug Reedthe numbers would have not exploded. it It would be so much less accessible, right? Without like five nine or five 10 sport climbs, you've just like a huge number of people that are involved in climbing now would never be involved in climbing. I mean, that's my opinion.

(58:49):
Ari GrodeDon't.
Doug Reeduh i'm gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna Take a guess. If you guys want, you could probably dial it up on Mountain Project. Look for Freaky Stylie on Mountain Project at Fern Point, but I'm gonna say 85.

(59:18):
Doug Reed85. That could be totally off. My my brain, sometimes it's it's incredible what I can pull up 35 years later, and sometimes my brain's just mush as far as remembering that stuff. But I'm gonna say about 85.
Doug Reedum
Ari GrodeOkay.
RobertAnd, and about how long do you think like you were just like locked in on developing at the new, like from 85 until about, was it like two years?

(59:43):
Doug Reedum
RobertWas it like you were there kind of for five years every season or was it a, okay.
Doug ReedProbably seven years, seven years yeah about seven years, um something like that. yeah you know and
Doug ReedAnd and yeahp ah at the peak there was when I was doing that like 100 routes a year. I sustained that for about three years.

(01:00:13):
RobertWow.
Ari GrodeDoug, it I'd love to spend some time hearing a little bit about that, like your process. Um, you know, you're known for developing, we're talking about developing a lot of routes, but I think the thing that stands out the most to me is really the, the quality of the lines that often went up. You know, I, I did an exercise where I went through mountain project and I looked at like, you know, they, they give a top list of all the roots at the new, and I was just clicking through and, you know,

(01:00:38):
Ari Grode60 plus percent of them of the four-star routes or you have your name as the first ascensionist on there. I mean, were you did you have a vision? what What was that like?
Doug ReedYeah.
Ari GrodeWere you looking for these specific types of lines? And what stood out to you that you knew it was going to be so good?
Doug ReedWell, I'll say a few things about that and I appreciate your recognizing that and. I agree with your assessment. I think it's totally accurate, and but um what I want to address is why that is.

(01:01:13):
Doug ReedI think one thing that happened when sport climbing started. Some first ascensionists lost sight of the basic principle of what a rock climb ought to be. It ought to be some kind of a weakness with either much harder climbing, bordering on either side of it, if not unclimbable rock on either side. Ideally, unclimbable rock for a good ways on either side of it. And if you lose sight of that basic principle, here's the line, this stuff is either unclimbable or much, much more difficult.

(01:02:01):
Doug Reedit's it You got to stick to that for the most part. Occasionally, it's OK to say, put this bolt out here and guide the climber in a direction that maybe it it it deviates a bit from that basic principle. you know Pull the climber in this direction because there's an experience to be had up there.

(01:02:31):
Doug Reedum you know But you don't want to overplay that. You don't want to overplay that. You want a natural line. And if you deviate from that too much, or if you use the bolt line to guide the climber, or if you just come top down and just drill a straight line of bolts and that's the route, or if you start squeezing stuff in too tight, you know all that is problematic.

(01:02:59):
Doug Reedand
Doug Reedbut I took the route development really seriously and thought about it real hard and thought about it like it was a job, you know, and it was my obligation as I saw it to make the route development as high quality as possible.

(01:03:26):
Doug ReedI don't know that that's
Ari GrodeI certainly think you've succeeded in that. I mean, people often, you know I'll read on forums or and comments on on routes. I mean, people use your routes as absolute benchmarks ah for their own progress, but I mean, some of the lines are just, every time I climb ah ah you know a new line at the new, say it's like out of the bag or disturbance or any of these, I'm like, man, that is just one of the best routes I've ever climbed.

(01:03:54):
Ari GrodeAnd of course, you know, I look and your name seems to be associated with it. So, uh, I mean, y'all were just picking picking plums and, uh, putting up some just amazing lines.
RobertThank you.
Ari GrodeUm, I mean, what was the, just like, doesn't get better than that.
Doug ReedYeah, that disturbance, that's pretty awesome, right?
Doug ReedYeah, super cool. and's And and that that's what I really like. That is to find a zone with like, one route is fine, but I usually wasn't looking so much for one like project thing. I was looking for a zone with some, you know, multiple good good routes in there.

(01:04:33):
Doug Reedum That, that, that.
Ari GrodeI think a good example of that.
RobertI mean, that makes sense. if you're If you're putting up three in a day, you gotta have a zone. You can't just be hitting one hike and hiking a mile down, then finding the next one, you know?
Doug Reedyeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ari GrodeI was going to say the, I mean, a good, a good example of that is the whole at K-more, you know, it seems like that whole areas you kind of developed on your own.
Doug ReedThat, um.

(01:04:54):
Ari GrodeDo you mind diving into that a little bit, what that was like?
Doug ReedYeah, yeah, there were some there were some scrap there were some scraps left over. But yeah, I'm like, ah this is all mine. Yeah. and And it wasn't until I pretty much had that stuff equipped and good to go that I even told anybody about that place.
Ari Grodeand
Doug ReedAnd that's when I... um

(01:05:16):
Doug ReedTook Rick Thompson down there, Rico. Took Rico down there and just handed to him that out of the bag and Rico Suave. as says like dude this This is be the next couple of seasons.
RobertRico Suave.
Doug Reedand This is all for you. You take that. That's your style.
Robertah
Doug Reedand ah Yeah, I think. Yeah, it was. um Yeah, it was a big grab for sure. um But I'd do that if I found a really good zone, I'd keep it a little quiet till I had but shot all the bolts in there and was kind of good to go.

(01:05:52):
Doug Reedum
Doug ReedYeah, out there.
Ari GrodeAnd, and, and was the, yeah I was, I was going to ask, I mean, was, was the vision more to just develop or were you trying to kind of push the limits a little bit, like in terms of your own personal difficulty or I guess raising the standard that existed within the region?
Doug ReedNo, go ahead.

(01:06:20):
Doug ReedI would I would say both I would say both um you know I'd have some pride usually in a season I'd have one or two projects say um but then a lot of just quality and it didn't matter you know I back then ah I usually wouldn't and at the new Other than if you went to a totally fresh area, like up at the lake or something, for the most part, at the new proper, not the New River Gorge region, but new proper, all the 510s had already been climbed trad. That's why actually at the new, there's really not any 510 sport routes, because that stuff had all been climbed trad.

(01:07:04):
Ari GrodeMm hmm.
Doug Reedyou know Now they found some easy sports stuff to do up there at the lake, but that was years later. So I was pretty much just doing like, you know, when I was in full sport production mode, just 11s and above, but but I'd be doing those and I'd usually have a project like when I was doing something like Disturba, it's a green envy next to it. That was probably the same season where my project out there was 13B,

(01:07:39):
Doug Reedstiff 13B called Sportster. which is a just premium line. Excellent example of singular line unclimbable rock on either side. Just amazing. Another similar example to that, it looks a little similar. It's a little steeper by a couple of grades. Let me say something like slash and burn at Butcher's Branch, 12D. Just there's the line.

(01:08:11):
Doug Reedpretty much blank rock on either side. You know, that's what you want. That's what you want. um
Ari GrodeYeah, that that's that slash and burns got to be I've never sent it but i've I've been on it before that's got to be one of the best routes on the on the on the planet.
Doug ReedAmazing, amazing. And yes, yes.
Ari GrodeIt's amazing.
Doug ReedAnd cro probably the best route of that grade sport route that I ever put up. um And and same same with that one Sportster at Beauty Mountain. you know Just quality, just just can't get any better. But yeah, Slash and Burn, it's pretty awesome.

(01:08:54):
Ari GrodeYou want to take us through any of like your some of those real real cutting edge routes like confirmation, fuel injector, um you know the one you mentioned at beauty.
Doug ReedYeah, yeah, yep, yep.
Ari Grodelike what was that like Was there a lot that had to go into those?
Doug ReedSo it's fuel injector around the corner from Slash and Burn. Yeah, so where when I was doing routes like that, I'd put in that category as well.

(01:09:16):
Doug Reedum Down there at Central Endless, at the honeymooners ladder, in addition to confirmation, would be um satanic verses, which is on the arret, just left of quinzana plus.
RobertThank you.
Ari GrodeOkay.
Doug Reedum Yeah, so I'd be doing, route production on stuff and a little easier than that, but I'd be taking goes on those things. ah Confirmation was a little earlier on.

(01:09:47):
Doug ReedI didn't yet, when I did that, and you could look up the year of the FA, because I don't remember, but I wasn't yet living at the new then. I was coming up from Charlotte.
Doug ReedI had not moved up there yet. um That took,
Ari Grodewhat I want to say it was like 89 when I looked.
Doug ReedI think earlier, I think earlier than that, 89, I was living at the new.

(01:10:08):
Ari GrodeIt was okay.
Doug ReedI think it would have been more like 85 or six, but I could be wrong. yeah But yeah, so I'd be doing route production, but then I'd have a project and I'd be trying to send something like that.
Ari GrodeOkay.
Doug Reedum um Satanic versus that was a little later on. um project, and that was actually a somewhat of a variation on Porter's route, Get Thee Behind Me Satan, which started on Jesus and Tequila and went up and right and caught the arat and shot up to the top.

(01:10:53):
Doug Reedah pretty brilliant striking line and all I did was came straight up underneath so rather than starting on Jesus ah jesus and tequila and moving out onto there I just shot straight up underneath there um had to fortify some holds on that. Porter had had to fortify one hold and that's something else we're going to talk about is that transition toward that which came a little bit after the initial sport climbing stuff. But um Porter had to fortify one hold on his and then I had to fortify a couple of holds on on

(01:11:37):
Doug Reedon what became satanic verses um to make that go. And that was a real important step in that, you know, when you start getting into kind of higher grades, it's very possible oftentimes if that route sheds one hold, you might erase the thing, right? It might just be gone.

(01:12:04):
Doug Reedright So the introduction of fortifying of holds was real important.
Ari GrodeYeah.
Doug Reedum and And like I said, Tim's even totally on board with that these days. And but and part of it is because they they've had ruined

(01:12:25):
Doug Reedroutes at Moore's Wall because of that. Things like Mighty Mouse and stuff like that um or that route of ah my importers channel 12 at Sour Town. It was a much better route back when it was 12a or whatever because now It's shed holds and it's like, you go up and there's this, and I don't know, cause I haven't done it since it holds broke off, but you know, you just go up there and then it's got this like, you know, V9 crux, you know? And so it lost all continuity. Continuity, that's another real important factor in route quality. It's gotta have continuity.

(01:13:12):
Doug ReedAll right, there's not any four or five star routes that just have this just slap down crux and much easier climbing above and below. You know, it just can't. I mean, there are routes that have that that are good, but your best routes aren't going to be that way. It needs to have some continuousness to it.

(01:13:36):
Ari GrodeYeah.
RobertYeah, it's it's funny you mentioned that. I think there was a ah guy who used to climb in the gym that Ari and I used to climb at. And like I think he was on a boulder at Moors. I think it was maybe Master Lock. And then it ripped off. And someone commented FA, like final ascent, because no one's ever going to do that again on that one. But um yeah, the the reinforcement is certainly something that kind of making sure that that climb lasts and like people get that opportunity to climb it how it's originally intended is is an interesting concept.

(01:14:05):
Doug ReedAbsolutely. it ah Absolutely. And, and I, I believe probably the first route that I did that with the first one I'm remembering right now, quince on a plus quince on a plus has four or five holes and

(01:14:28):
Doug ReedThat round is just, I mean, you stand underneath it, it's singular line, it's just jaw dropping. And, you know, it would just have been a shame to have that thing shed holes and either end up, you know,
Doug Reedruining the continuity or erasing it or something. But that's the first one I remember fortifying on um and then later on and now with the fortifying you can use the glue like the same glue that you use for gluing bolts on it and it works even better.

(01:15:01):
Doug Reedum What we were using was PC7, which was real thick, it was really highly viscous, and it was hard to use it, um hard to hard to conceal, because I i think with glue, you wanna make it as you know inconspicuous as possible, not because you're trying to sneak around and nobody knows there's glue on there. It just makes it more aesthetic, the less obvious there is glue. um I'll say, for example,

(01:15:32):
Doug Reedthe great Now deceased climber Brian McRae he put up a bunch of hard routes out at the Cirque at the new um but ah frankly his gluing was Pretty sloppy at times because there's a lot of glue out there on routes. Um, but Now with there there's better glue to use for sure

(01:15:59):
RobertMake sense.
Ari GrodeYeah, good a good good example of that is the Fugitive, Porter's route, the Fugitive at Sorrowtown. You know that, I think it's that Crux, the dino jug you catch, would have never known, but I took a real close look at it.
Ari GrodeYou can see there's a little bit of glue holding that together, but whoever did it, whoever glued that on there did an excellent job because you can't even tell, but perfect perfect example of, man, if that hold goes, is does that route even go?

(01:16:23):
Ari GrodeAnd it's such a beautiful striking King line there.
Doug ReedOh, I know, I know, I know. And the harder routes, you know, it's just the nature of the climbing. email You know, you could lose one hold and it could erase the route.
Ari GrodeYeah.
Doug ReedI broke off when doing um Dial 911 at Central Endless. I broke off a hold.

(01:16:50):
Doug ReedIt's a foothold and um I was pretty certain I found it on the ground um and I genuinely and honestly was pretty sure because it it seemed to fit back in place as though it was the hold and I put it back on there. And some people questioned that, but um I pretty sincerely felt like what I found on the ground was the hold that was there, but I could never, certainly ever No, 100% for sure if that was the case, but I'm pretty sure it was.

(01:17:44):
Doug ReedYeah, absolutely.
Doug ReedYeah, absolutely. Porter's younger than me, and um you know he was kind of a younger sort of protege. And we kind of together learned how to sport climb or learned how to develop sport climbs. We really did that together. He got a drill before I got a drill.

(01:18:08):
Doug Reedand um
Doug ReedAnd I was at that time climbing a little harder than Porter. It wasn't too long before he was climbing harder than me. Certainly by the time he moved to the red and he's the guy that made that Red River Gorge happen. I'm just going to say before he went over there and started putting up but sport climbs, they were climbing some kind of

(01:18:35):
Doug Reedkind of second tier quality tried stuff over there. He he was the guy that made it happen over there. And part of the reason he did is I was so greedy, I just wouldn't hardly give him any elbow room. I wouldn't give him any real estate. He'd drill a root. Like channel 12 would be a perfect example, poor drill that.

(01:18:56):
Doug Reedyou know if he didn't send it after a couple of goes i just like man you need to let me give a go on that and i would just steal roots from him and shit i was just ruthless just a horrible person and and And it pushed him to go over there in the red, and he's the guy that went over there and made it happen. not it It definitely wasn't me. I mean, I went over there and put up a few roots, but he's the guy that made that happen. But he was younger than me, and um he was super motivated and weep.

(01:19:31):
Doug ReedWe just started putting up roots like Matt. And that about that time is when Tim and I unfortunately had a real parting of the ways. And part of it was Porter would bait Tim. He like nothing more than just poked him in the eye. And it all came to a head. There was one specific day

(01:19:56):
Doug ReedAnd a lot of things went into this. It was like, ah you know, kind of crazy. So we were at Moore's wall. Tim, he' that guy's a badass.
Doug ReedTim, that morning, did the first free solo vascular disaster. I don't know if you know that route, but super hats off, very respectable.

(01:20:20):
Ari GrodeYeah.
Doug ReedNot his first, but the first time anybody ever free soloed dad. So he was pretty pumped up, I am sure. And Porter and I rolled up, and I know Tim knew we had the power drill. And just to poke Tim in the eye, Porter goes, Tim, what would be the easiest way to get up to the top of this cliff?

(01:20:45):
Doug Reedobviously implying how can we get up there and drop a rope down and power drill some shit top down just to be an ass a and Tim makes this face looking as though he's smelling dog shit. And he goes, I have no recommendations. And Porter proceeds to go up there, drop a rope, and we drill this sport route, would then we name the recommendation.

(01:21:18):
Doug ReedAnd it wasn't probably three days before Tim came back and chopped that shit. And also, We did just super badass first descent that day of a route that just also to poke Tim in the eye that Porter names Filet-O-Fish, which Tim even today says is one of the best trad routes of the grade at Moore's Wall, 12A, and it is super good.

(01:21:50):
Doug ReedAnd we did Filet-O-Fish first descent that day and the recommendation.
Ari GrodeOh yeah.
Doug ReedSo a lot of shit went down on that day, including Tim's free solo on VD, vascular disaster.
Doug ReedSo there was a lot of testosterone flowing amongst us.
Ari Grodeah

(01:22:25):
Ari GrodeNo, actually, I haven't. No, I always fall at that crux over and over again.
Doug ReedHow about Tim at Porter asking Tim how to get up to the top to drop the rope down We you know even Tim can laugh at this now Porter also along that time not on that day but um down there at the north end we used to repel off this tree a dead tree and a gully that had a bunch of tad on there and Porter decided to go out there and with the power drill and um

(01:23:02):
Doug Reeddrill a two bolt rappel anchor. Well, Tim goes out there. Tim goes out there and chops the rappel anchor and put a fresh sling on the dead tree, re-establishing the legitimate rappel anchor. And even he can see the humor in that now.

(01:23:26):
Ari GrodeYeah, that's amazing. Yeah, I mean, it's that's that's a golden nugget of history there. And that sounds like that day was kind of famous or infamous, however you want to look at it. Yeah, it's funny, because yeah Tim loves that filet of fish route.
Ari GrodeAnd it's funny to hear the the history of it.
Doug ReedOh, no, he says it's one of the best of the grade now. And it was just totally, you know,
Ari GrodeI mean, it is. It's amazing.

(01:23:46):
Doug Reedright. And so, so to kind of kind of move elsewhere geographically, ah around that time is where we when we started in the winter going down to Alabama. um My brother and I,
Doug Reedfor the most part, discovered. sport climbing Little River and that's a that's a wintertime cliff that's when we started going down there and Porter was in on that and we did some pretty greedy route development before we kind of let the cat out of the bag on that one but once again it blew up after people really found out you know about lizard wall and you know the tomb suba area and all that stuff and um

(01:24:37):
Doug ReedYeah, we went down there and we were just cleaning up on super, super steep sandstone. It's a little lesser quality stone than the Chattanooga area. We're talking about geographically, if you just go diagonally south and west, you know, less than a hundred miles from Chad, you know, that same sandstone belt goes all the way down through there.

(01:25:02):
Doug Reedand then he gets a little river. And it's a little lesser rock quality than ah up around Chattanooga, but it's also steeper. Basically the bottom of the cliffs falling off, so it's making it just steep as hell. And um so what it sacrifices in slightly, don't get me wrong, it's not Charles.

(01:25:22):
Doug ReedBut slight sacrificing in rock quality, it makes up for in steepness. It's just crazy, crazy steep. And we're doing all kinds of stuff down there. You know, the initial zone that I developed down there that includes right in the middle of Tumsuba, which we can talk about that in a minute, that's a 512 that was originally a trad route that I did and later I retro bolted it. But then you've got,

(01:25:51):
Doug Reedright of their like powder keg and blue sling and um back left of their Majosha. There's some video footage of me doing Majosha that's pretty interesting, pretty early on um a climbing video of that. Really good climbing.
Doug Reedum That's a great zone, and then that lizard wall is just stacked. You can climb a lizard wall, it's capped by a huge roof, and you can climb down there in a torrential downfall. um Just amazing cliff, and it is stacked. There's one sport route after another. Now people have kind of filled in, and we've gotten a little tight. There's definitely some squeeze jobs that I'm not super psyched about, but there's a route pretty much. That that wall is it's kind of like if you took a football field and turned it up on its edge and overhung it about five degrees that would be lizard wall and then put a big ass roof over the top of it and there's a route every every 20 feet it's just loaded just loaded

(01:27:03):
Doug ReedAnd really really only one route.
Ari Grodeand and And what was the what was the relative time frame of this?
Doug Reedthat it There is a route down there that does breach that roof that I put up. And I'll just say, I put up a lot of routes that I named. i they i always I think I have some really good route names. I'll just say that. But there are a lot of routes that I didn't name. But um just to be clear, I never named any routes after myself. So if you see routes with my name on it,

(01:27:34):
Doug Reedin guidebooks. I didn't name any of those things. I didn't name any of those things. So there's two routes down there, at Lizard Wall. There's they're Short Dug and Long Dug, I think they call it. And I didn't name either one of those, but I did put those up. And people do a really cool link up now. They do short dug and then link into long dug and go out the big roof. And I think that might be the hardest route at Lizard Wall now. I've i've never done it. It'd be too hard for me. um But it's pretty cool that they they figured that out.

(01:28:21):
Doug ReedYeah, exactly. Yep, yep, yep, yep, exactly.
Doug ReedIt's mega. It's mega. It's cool. And that's an example of the bunch of bolts next to gear. Yeah, but you go back right in there. um So they call that area Tomb Suba area. So Tomb Suba starts out of the back of this cave.

(01:28:46):
Doug ReedGive you an idea how steep Tum Tsuba is. And it was originally tried, originally tried when I put it up. yeah um It overhangs about 30 or 35 feet and about 65 feet. Kind of hard to wrap your head around that one, right? And and like I said, it was, yeah. So originally that was gear. So I put that up.

(01:29:18):
Doug ReedAnd, It just sat there for years, nobody would do it. So I just like, the heck with it, I'm just gonna turn it into a sport route. Because it was just such a fine piece of climbing in the middle of this sport climbing zone. I mean, nobody would even take gear down there, you know, ah you know, trad gear. So it was just such a, it was a missing link in this otherwise really fabulous zone of climbing. And it was just such a shame that people were going down there

(01:29:49):
Doug Reedand just knocking down all these sport routes and that thing just sat there. And so I just, it's like, oh well, whatever, jam the bulletin and it's done, it's mega classic.
Ari GrodeWow, that's amazing. So what timeframe was this?
Ari GrodeDo you remember?
Doug Reedum I'm gonna say around, Man, I have such crummy memory with this stuff. I'm gonna say around 86, but I could be totally wrong. And my brother was real involved with that development too. He was living in Mississippi. We're from Mississippi and he'd moved back there from Colorado. So he'd be coming over there like on weekends and stuff.

(01:30:34):
Doug Reedand um and we'd be developing routes. And there was other guys that were really strong near getting in on that. Jersey Jeff Gruenberg, man, he was living down and in Jacksonville, Florida.
Doug Reedand talk about driven, he would drive from Jacksonville to climb up there in the sandstone belt every weekend, year after year. And we're talking like about eight hours round trip. He'd drive up, get off work on Friday, drive up there Friday night, drive back, getting back to Jacksonville like one or two a.m. every Sunday night. Just obsessed.

(01:31:15):
Doug ReedAnd um yeah, just a bunch of other guys just really, really driven to put up routes for sure. And um another guy that wasn't really in, was not in on the development there at um Little River, but Jesse Guthrie.

(01:31:36):
Doug Reedwho is a guy that was from Huntsville, but he moved to Germany and he was hanging out with that crowd with Wolfgang Gulich and whatnot. When those guys were developing training for climbing, like they were the first guys to do any kind of training for climbing beyond just like some pull ups. And, you know, he and Kurt Albert and and Jesse went over there and was hanging out with those guys and like,

(01:32:05):
Doug ReedThese little homemade fingerboards, you know, hang boards, like hanging off some little shallow one and two finger pockets and stuff. And Jesse came back and he was really, he had some power like none of us had. And he did what was thought at that time. He was climbing, he was Huntsville guy.
Doug ReedSo he was climbing up a yellow glove and he put up what was probably the hardest route very possibly in the eastern United States Called rainbow warrior around that time and there's a real classic photograph. I'm I have to share with you guys sometime ah that I took of my brother Maurice Jesse and um and Jeff Jersey's f Gruenberg sitting at the bottom of a Jesse's ah first ascent rainbow warrior, which was the hardest route in the U.S. at the time, probably. And Jeff would go on to a year or so later climb what was maybe the hardest route in the Eastern U.S., which was his route at Buzzard Point, I think it was, up in Chattanooga area, Pia Ta,

(01:33:18):
Doug Reednamed after that Michelangelo sculpture that was defiled with a hammer because alluding to the fact that Jeff's route is very much manufactured. Not 100% manufactured, but there's definitely manufacturing on that. Drill pockets and some chipping and stuff like that. And he was he very upfront about it. It was definitely manufactured about. It's been downgraded, my understanding is. um He thought at the time that it was the first 514 in the Eastern United States. It's been downgraded. ah

(01:33:55):
Doug Reeduh maybe 13c now but at the time you know late 80s 13c really meant something you know and in those kind of grades you know you got to take that To fully appreciate those kind of grades, you got to link it to the era.
Doug ReedLink it to the date, you know? I mean, like my brother Maurice flashed at 12A at Yellow Creek Falls, a thing called Grand Dragon, when flashing of 12A really meant something, you know?

(01:34:28):
Doug ReedWhereas now, you know, nobody thinks much about that.
Ari Grodeto
Doug ReedBut when you... You personally probably had never met a person that had flashed to twelve a 12A. It's like, wow, that's something.
Ari GrodeYeah. Yeah, that's amazing. So to you guys, was that, did that coincide the development down at a little river Canyon coincide with the new, like, was it kind of like, okay, we're spending the winter at little river and then going back to the new or.

(01:34:55):
Doug Reedand did later It did yeah later on. ye so i'd be living it When I moved to the new, bit of a routine there.
Ari GrodeOkay.
Doug ReedSo the new is not very good in the summer, mid-summer and mid-winter, right? So I was calling it full-time. So the winter routine would be um maybe but he go to Waco tanks for a bit.

(01:35:22):
Doug Reedum Boulder get real strong and spend also part of the winter at Little River developing routes. So that'd be kind of the routine for several seasons.
Ari GrodeOkay.
Doug ReedThe summer routine when it got just super sweltering if new would be go to rifle, go out to Colorado and go to rifle and climb sport climb mid-summer.

(01:35:44):
Doug Reedand know and do that, you know, get away from the condition. So yeah, I usually wouldn't ride out the winter. I'd sometimes spend some time in the winter doing a bunch of drilling, doing some manual labor, cutting some trails and jamming in bolts. Like I did a bunch of development one winter in advance of the spring season up into upper meadow.

(01:36:10):
Doug ReedAnd unfortunately, the documentation is super lacking on the development up there.
Ari Grodeyeah Okay, yeah.
RobertYep.
Doug ReedAnd I'll just say, there's a bunch of people that tried to take credit for stuff as first to sense. They'd be going like, oh, Doug drill this, but he never did it. That's kind of bullshit.

(01:36:31):
Doug Reedum And I was out of climbing after after I drill those and and let them that that spring kind of got out of climbing was totally out of touch and there's a lot of that this poorly documented. I did a lot of stuff up there that people shouldn't have been claiming.
Doug Reedthat, oh, Doug drilled this, but he never did it. It's like, really? It's 12D, 13A? What makes you think I didn't do that? you know I would have knocked that out in a couple of goes. And so, I don't know, in retrospect, when I go up there, um yeah that was a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. I like those cracks, and I'm real proud of what I did up there. But the lack of documentation kind of I don't know, hurts a bit, but you know, ah I don't really have much to prove, so of whatever.

(01:37:28):
Ari GrodeYeah, I think you're your legacy speaks for speaks for itself, certainly.
Doug ReedYeah, yeah, but that that was a big it and I may have stayed there all winter that that winter when I developed those cracks up because there had been almost no action above the bridge on the upper and I did a lot of drilling that winter and I may have stayed at the new all winter drilling that year. I don't remember there may be some may have been some time down it down in Alabama but definitely didn't go to Waco that year.

(01:38:04):
RobertYou mentioned you kind of got out of climbing for a little bit there. Was there any reason why that happened? And like, how long were you out of climbing for? I mean, it's interesting.
Doug ReedYeah, yeah, so I quit climbing for about, so um this year would be 52 years since I started climbing.
Robertlike

(01:38:25):
Doug ReedSo I started climbing at 73. But yeah, I took ah about, I basically didn't climb at all for about 18 years. Yeah, so interesting kind of sequence of events.
RobertOh, wow.
Doug ReedSo I was i was working a ah project Up at the Cirque. So I've discovered the Cirque and put the first roots up up there. That's the um the upper upper end of Endless Wall.

(01:38:54):
Doug ReedPut the first roots in up there.
Robertah About when was this?
Doug ReedThis would have been late 80s, early 90s, something like that.
RobertOkay.
Doug Reedum Early 90s, yeah. um Early 90s. and um
Doug ReedYeah, yeah, probably 93 93.

(01:39:18):
RobertOkay.
Doug ReedUm, because I want to say that 92 92 was probably the last year that I did 100 first to sense in a year. It was really high production years.
Doug ReedAnd so I have a project up there called the crouch is what the name became. I didn't name it that but it's just kind of what it got called and um I want to hang that thing dozens of times over and over again, you know, and there's really two kinds of one hangs there's one hang that you hang and you might as well set up a hanging belay and just break it into two pieces or there's a hang you fall off and get back on and scoot to the top like you're this close and that's where I was I'd go up there fall off that thing get back on boom take you to the top over and over and over again

(01:40:13):
Doug ReedWell, my girlfriend at the time and I were going to move to Australia for a year, and the date to move to Australia was coming and coming, and I was the one hanging that thing over and a and over and Finally, the date came to jump on the plane and move to Australia, and I just, boom, quit climbing. Never sent the project, quit climbing, done, over.

(01:40:40):
Doug Reedand started doing ultra endurance trail sports, trump ah endurance mountain biking and running and stuffve stuff like that and just quit. Done.
Doug ReedI think initially they were grading the crouch 14A, and that had been a goal for me.
Ari GrodeCan you

(01:41:01):
Doug ReedAnd everything I've ever been super passionate about, it's kind of been a pattern. I've always had ah had a that ultimately I didn't quite reach, you know?
Doug ReedMaybe I was reaching too high, but you know, it was the same with endurance sports and never climbed 514, just never happened.
RobertYeah. Yeah.

(01:41:21):
Doug ReedYou know, and, you know, that's fine. That's fine. um I'm comfortable with that. And now I think that route has been downgraded to 13 D, but, you know, I'm pretty proud of that.
Doug ReedYou know, I had to go at it. You know, I, I, you know, in my max, you know, I was climbed 13 plus never, never got to five 14, but that's all right.
RobertFor sure.

(01:41:45):
Doug ReedAnd, you know, you got to, once again, you got to take that. in with the era, 13 plus or 14 minus or whatever kind of meant something different 30 plus years ago.
Doug Reedyou know It's a different beast now.

(01:42:07):
Ari GrodeOh, absolutely. I mean, y'all were pushing the boundary of what people thought was physically possible on rock.
Doug ReedYeah, 14A 35 years ago,
Doug ReedThat was about as hard as it got, you know? You know, maybe.
Ari GrodeYeah.
Doug ReedAnd, you know, there were some people that, like Kim Carrigan, the Australian guy, who I, by the way, climbed with the first time I went to Australia. He was about the best climber in the world. Coming right behind him was Wolfgang Goolick, you know, and he climbed some 514. And I'm not trying to put myself in their category, because they definitely climbed harder than me. But I wasn't trailing too far behind. And and not don't get me wrong, I'm not saying, oh, I could have done that, could have done that. That's what I'm saying. but

(01:43:05):
Doug ReedBack in those hundred routes a year days, I just kind of hardly took a rest day. His rest day meant going out cutting cutting trails and drilling bolts and scrubbing lichen and stuff.
Ari GrodeYeah, I mean, it seems certainly seems like.
Doug ReedI'm going to take it a couple of real days off, you know, my my climb grade hard, um you know, a couple of letters harder. Who knows? Maybe not. You can only speculate.

(01:43:31):
Ari GrodeYeah, I mean, it's very clear that your all your attention wasn't focused on achieving a single letter and number grade. it was on you know developing these amazing areas that we all get to play on ah every weekend.
Doug Reedyeah Yeah, I don't think it's wild speculation that if I had slowed down on the route development and focused a little more on a project, there's there's no reason to think I couldn't have climbed at least a ladder harder, you know?

(01:43:59):
Doug Reedum Yeah, you know, most speculative.
Ari GrodeSo so can we can we elaborate a little bit on, so you you you were going to Australia. i mean Was the plan to just take a year off climbing or stop climbing all together or did it just happen to coincide?
Doug Reedit it just It was a very natural stopping point.
Ari GrodeI mean, you just hit like a.

(01:44:20):
Doug ReedIt was a very natural stopping point for me. you know i I was coming off multiple hundred route a year, years, and with but that one project, I'd hit a dead end.
Doug ReedI was ah of an age, because I was born in 1960, I was of an age where it was very obvious I was not going to get any better. It just wasn't going to happen. I was not going to get better. I put up hundreds and hundreds of routes and it just, I got super passionate about doing something else. It just felt good. It's what I wanted to do. Just do something else.

(01:45:14):
Ari GrodeWas there, I mean climbing is a big part of my life and I certainly didn't spend as much time or dedication like you did. I mean, what was that like to, uh, you know, have this thing that you spent 20 plus years, you know, dedicating your life to and all of a sudden you're doing something different.
Doug ReedIt.
Ari GrodeWas it?
Doug Reedyeah You know, fortunately, ah fortunately, I had something else that I was super passionate about. I mean, if I didn't, I probably would have yeah drifted into like massive depression or who knows what, but I had something else that I was like super psyched on. It was new, it was fresh and I was like totally in for it. And so it was good, you know. um I will say when I started back climbing,

(01:46:00):
Doug ReedIt was a revelation as far as, so man, I didn't realize how much I missed climbing. i really yeah I'm back.
RobertYeah.
Doug ReedI really love climbing. And as much as anything, though, that I can appreciate now is I missed the camaraderie of it, the just hanging with the tribe. and And now I've just got such a great circle of old friends and new friends. and but so much Most of the people that I climb with,

(01:46:37):
Doug Reedare ah half my age, if not younger than that. i just I'm super psyched about that. i mean It's fun. i mean I mean, I climb with Tim, you know, Tim and I are basically the same age, you know, but most of the climbing I did, like I was at Rumley Bald yesterday with ah Posse and yeah, all those folks, I could i could be their dad. Some of them I could be their grandfather.

(01:47:01):
Doug ReedBut you know, I feed on that. at I mean, it's cool. But yeah, i i it wasn't until I started back, just like, man, I didn't realize how much I missed this. And I wish I hadn't quit for as long because I'll just say, when I go out, I don't always try hard, but sometimes I try really hard. And I'll just say it. I give it 100%, not every time I go out, but sometimes. And if I hadn't quit for so long, in 18 or 20 years, you lose some finger strength, and you're not gonna get that back. And probably at my age, you shouldn't try to get that back,

(01:47:50):
Doug ReedAt least not all of it. Are you going to get hurt trying to get it back? It's not going to happen. Just not.
Ari GrodeYeah, well you want to talk a little bit about your
Doug ReedBut i you know i can ah you know i I'm hovering right around that 512 grade, which I'm fine with that. It's my max, be it gym climbing or outdoor or whatever. that That's fine. That's satisfying. I really love gym climbing. That's something that um you know didn't exist for you know like the first half of my climbing years. That didn't even wasn't even a thing.

(01:48:46):
Doug Reedit it I know this is a lousy answer. It's all of it. ah like the I like the the camaraderie. I love the movement on on plastic.
Doug Reedand And I like that it you know makes it where I can climb pretty decent when I go outside. you know ah you know One of the most beautiful things about gym climbing, if you have a um but good gym and a good route setter, just about every route's five star. Whereas you only stumble across something as good as that outside like one in a hundred routes.

(01:49:27):
Doug ReedIn a gym, if it's a good gym, and a good route setter, every one of them might be just stellar. Whereas outside, you only run across something like, say let's just say, slash and burn or quince on a plus or something like that.
Ari GrodeYeah.
Doug ReedMan, that's that's one in 500 routes, you know?

(01:49:49):
Ari GrodeYeah.
Doug ReedI've done a little bit of i've done a little bit of that that. It wouldn't interest me at all. No. No.

(01:50:10):
Ari GrodeSo, uh, one, one question here. I mean, what was that return? Like, uh, you know, ah you talked about, you're somebody who's 20 or 20 something years ago, pushing the close to the edge of what's physically possible on rock.
Ari GrodeAnd now you come back and you know, you spent 20 years not pulling on or using your, your finger tendons in that way. I mean, was it, was there frustration like, Oh, I should be climbing harder or was it just boy to be moving over rock again?

(01:50:34):
Doug ReedWell,
Doug Reedbut you just just to correct just to correct, you said climbing 20 something years ago, really when I was most prolific is more like 30, 35 years.
Doug ReedBut just just to yeah put it in perspective, no, I was climbing horrible when I first started back.
Ari GrodeOkay, okay.

(01:50:57):
Doug ReedReally poorly but because of gym climbing I Kind of rallied back pretty well pretty quickly like um you know um and Didn't get to where I could say climb about 512 in the gym for Several years I'm gonna say Until like four years into the comeback could I kind of hit that sort of difficulty level Yeah.

(01:51:32):
Doug Reedum Yeah. um I didn't do that until my kids started climbing. Cause I was always real hesitant about trying to push them toward climbing.
Doug ReedI knew a lot of my friends that were probably a little more pushy with climbing relating to their kids. And I was just not going to be that guy. And so I really let them kind of find that on their own.

(01:51:55):
Doug ReedYou know, they had friends that started gym climbing and stuff. And that's when I started back to kind of share that with them.
Ari GrodeThank you.
Doug Reedum Yeah, totally. and um And they climb for a while, but they they don't climb now. but I hope they'll pop, maybe come back to that eventually.

(01:52:35):
Doug ReedYeah, I saw i saw ah saw something that was, I don't know if it was on Facebook or something. One time my my daughter, Hallie, sent me this thing where she saw some kind of discussion as you know on some social media, probably Facebook, and and some discussion. And she chimes in and says, ah yeah, that's my dad. I'm real proud of him. And I was like, man, that just made my day. like My kid's like,

(01:53:05):
Doug ReedYeah, felt really good.
Ari GrodeThat's pretty cool.
Doug ReedUm, you know, I um...

(01:53:26):
Doug Reedjust to get out and enjoy being out with friends. Like I said, I'll i'll try as hard as I can, you know. um but But yeah, having a good group of people to climb with. I get together with old guys, sharing old stories. It's nothing more fun than getting out with Tim, for example, and, you know, sharing stories, talking about routes.

(01:53:47):
Doug Reedtalking about grades and you know all that kind of stuff. but ah And I really like sharing with ah with the young folks. They like to hear stories about stuff and hear about first ascents and things like that.
Doug ReedAnd that's that's cool too. you know But I learned stuff from them as well. you know it so just Just doing all of it. Yeah. um And

(01:54:10):
Ari Grodeis is there any Is there anything you'd like to see kind of from the next generation kind of coming up, you know, moving moving the sport forward?
Doug ReedWell, you know I think it's what I am seeing. It was not all that many years ago, for the most part, that you know people were pretty much saying, oh, trad climbing is dead. you know It's all about sport climbing, blah, blah, blah. that no That's not the case. There's a lot of people doing some impressive

(01:54:43):
Doug Reedsome impressive tried stuff. There's some good stuff going down and both first ascents and repeating stuff that you know maybe have sat dormant for years and years and years.
Doug Reedum
Doug ReedExample, a good friend of mine, Jacob Ward, just recently climbed electric Kool-Aid acid test ah at at Looking Glass all on gear. Super badass, just incredible. My brother and I tried to free that thing probably in...

(01:55:22):
Doug Reedin the early 80s, we failed miserably, failed miserably, but but we tried that back in the early 80s. And they're now, now that that's gotten, they've kind of got the beta dialed on it and they're calling it 13A. And it does have four bolts that probably should have never been put in there, but Jacob's done it both on bolts, with the bolts and supplementing with gear, but he's also done it. um um using a bunch of ball nuts and not clipping those bolts.

(01:55:54):
Doug ReedAnd they're also now doing a second pitch above that that's been done. I think it's 5.13 too as well. But yeah, now it's what I'm seeing, you know, people climbing hard trad stuff and sport because I, you know, I
Ari GrodeYeah, I think that ah just happened. It was weeks ago.
Doug ReedAnd that was one of the things that I objected to about here in Western North Carolina in particular. There are people being really preachy about telling folks how they ought to climb and trying to dictate how they are climbing. I always appreciated differing styles. you know i've I've been super active in big wall climbing, multi-pitched trad stuff.

(01:56:37):
Doug Reeddangerous climbing, free solo, sport, you name it. like I can appreciate all that. you know There's not just one way.
Doug Reedum and i think i've been pretty prolific in all those styles of climbing. um Maybe not in Big Wall. I've never i've donet ah done Big Wall climbing. I went there really prolific in that. But ah I've done it. Yeah. Like I said, we used to take trips every spring to Yosemite.

(01:57:14):
Ari GrodeYeah. Yeah. That was a good, I mean, I don't know if you saw, we we actually sat down with Jacob for an interview on the podcast. ah I think it was our second episode. um Yeah. i'm I'm blown away with what that, that crew's been doing out in Western North Carolina, like revitalizing some of those old routes.
Doug ReedThere's men and those i I like all those guys.
Ari GrodeAnd it's amazing.
Doug ReedThere's a posse over here that's doing some cool stuff. um they They really are. um yes And ah yeah, it's impressive. that They've repeated some stuff, like for example, not just that I put up, but like for example, ah two summers ago,

(01:57:53):
Doug ReedBunch of stuff at Shiprock got repeated that hadn't been climbed in years. Stuff like Special Forces and Revival and stuff like that. And there there was a little crew putting that stuff down.
Doug ReedAnd um it's good to see, good to see. Steven Davis, man, he's got a head.
Ari GrodeYeah, I think Jacob said he did.

(01:58:13):
Doug ReedSteven's got a head for some dangerous stuff. He did a thing at the dump warping and dwarfing that Um, has been led very, very few times, very few times. Um, 11 plus X. Um, I took a free solo lap on it one time. I never actually led it, but it doesn't really matter. You know, free solo lead, it's kind of the same thing. Um, but those are, you know, that, you know, that route. Yeah.

(01:58:46):
Doug ReedSo, steve Stevens led it. um There was the first, to say as far as I know, I think probably just three. The the first free ascent, my free solo, and Stevens lead on it.
Doug ReedThat one, Special Forces.
Ari Grodeah
Doug ReedMan, people have broken ankles on that. Multiple broken ankles on Special Forces. Y'all know that route it at Shiprock?

(01:59:10):
Ari GrodeI kind of know where it is. ah I've never actually like taken a peek at it.
Doug ReedYeah, it'd be left left of gunfighter and revival Revival we kind of brought that thing back to life because originally It was it was done way back before power drill.
Ari GrodeJust left of revival. Yeah.
Doug ReedSo to protect the start so I didn't have to hand drill a bolt I put a sling on a tree and use that to protect me on the on the like super dynamic crux to start um which I actually did in a more static way originally and then later did the dynamic. But the tree died and fell down and the thing really wasn't getting climbed. People were climbing it in a really danger, I thought, potentially dangerous way, putting wired nuts over these really rusty studs.

(01:59:57):
Doug ReedAnd I was afraid somebody was going to get hurt. So I put a good modern bolt on there. And I think it's maybe one of the best 511s at Shiprock now. And it gets done regularly because it's reasonably safe. But it's not a sport climb by any means.
Ari GrodeYeah. Actually, Jacob told, maybe we could finish on this, but Jacob told a story of, ah he said he he recently did the, but I don't know, second, third, fourth ascent of Fairhope. And he said he climbed it on your quick draws, which is kind of a cool full circle moment.

(02:00:29):
Doug ReedYeah, yeah so so that thing, it got, um yeah, so it put up Fairhope, which is out on the hanging chain wall, obviously named after my original scent on the wall hanging chain. And Fairhope, which is a sport route,
Doug Reedum Many years after I put it up, I don't know, got one repeat and then went another 20 years or so without getting repeated. And Jacob did repeat it last year. So it's three ascents in 35 years or something. um Hopefully it might get another scent this winter. It'd be good to see. Be nice to see. But yeah, once again, Jacob, he's all rounder. He was bolder than yesterday at the ball. Sent hard sport routes. Done all kinds of cool trash stuff, dangerous stuff. And then stuff like glass menagerie, just hats off. you know Pretty i impressive.

(02:01:38):
Ari GrodeYeah, yeah, the the the future of climbing is certainly in safe hands, I think.
Doug ReedYeah, yeah.
Ari GrodeWell, cool. I think that might be a good place to kind of wrap it up or write it about like two hours.
Doug ReedOh, cool. Yeah, I hope it didn't ramble too much.

(02:02:05):
Ari GrodeNo, this this was this was absolutely fascinating.
Doug ReedUm, I, one thing I'll say is I hope you'll edit that down a lot. It's going to be a snore fest if you include all that stuff. Yeah. Really kind of edit that shit down a lot.
Ari GrodeYeah, i don't think i don't think it'll be I don't think it'll be as much as you think. But yeah, i'll i'll we'll edit it a little bit. but ah

(02:02:29):
Doug ReedI trust you. I trust your judgment.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

24/7 News: The Latest

Crime Junkie

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ground Up 14: Legends From the Steep with Doug Reed

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

24/7 News: The Latest

Crime Junkie

All Episodes

Ground Up 14: Legends From the Steep with Doug Reed

On Purpose with Jay Shetty