October 21, 2024 • 46 mins
It’s time for a reality check.
Running a business is not like the social media highlight reels people would have you believe.
Spending your days dipping in your ice bath, a session with your personal trainer and therapist before you sit down to make 10K in 10 minutes. Rubbish.
I am joined by Eddie Whittingham, someone who has done it all. From police officer to starting a business in cyber security, which he sold for multiple-millions, and now running a lifestyle business as a co-working space owner.
Eddie tells it like it is, no holds barred.
He talks about the sacrifices to his mental health he had to make to get to where he is now. As well as the need for curiosity and continuous learning for anyone to be a successful entrepreneur. He calls out the sham business coaches infesting our social feeds and the fact that luck also plays a role in anyone’s success.
Want to know what building a business is really like? Listen to Eddie.
“Building a business requires sacrifice.”– Eddie
You’ll hear about:
00:00 - Building a business requires sacrifice
00:39 - Eddie's eclectic work background
02:28 - Choosing a modern lifestyle business
04:59 - The loneliness of running a business
06:38 - The truth about growing a startup
11:13 - Would I do things differently?
14:46 - Common mistakes in the first years of business
18:59 - Go for the big goal first
25:34 - The thrill is in the learning
28:27 - Having knowledge before outsourcing
31:43 - Advice on mentors or coaches
35:40 - Being saved by strong contracts
38:05 - Finding the right business coach
39:58 - Eddie's advice to small business owners
Connect with Eddie:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/eddiewhittingham/
GoFounder - https://gofounder.com/
The Ministry of Work - https://ministryofwork.co.uk/
Connect with me:
The HoLT - https://www.the-holt.com/
My website - https://leaturner.co.uk/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/lea-turner/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/leaturnerholt
Join The Holt waiting list - https://www.the-holt.com/waitlist
This podcast is sponsored bySafe Space From The Workplace. You can check out their podcast here - https://shorturl.at/IASSn
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eddie Whittingham (00:00):
There's
(00:00):
a difference between
being negative and being
a realist. Building a
business is one of the
hardest things you will
ever do, and it requires
a lot of sacrifice, and
that's not hustle porn or
anything like that. It's
just a reality, and it's
far easier to like and
buy into these concepts
that these sort of
superstars tell us
nothing's worth your
mental health, I can
assure you, as somebody
who definitely sacrificed
(00:21):
my mental health for
three years, it was worth
it, because I now have a
much easier ride for the
rest of my life.
Lea Turner (00:40):
Today, we're
welcoming Eddie
Whittingham to the HoLT
Survival Guide for small
businesses. And it's a
bit weird today, because
this is actually Eddie's
podcast studio that we
are in, and we are going
to talk a little bit more
about the business
ventures that you have.
But first, why don't you
introduce yourself to
everybody? Sure, thank
Eddie Whittingham (00:57):
you
for having me on. I'm
Eddie Whittingham. I've
got a bit of a potted
background that I'm sure
we'll get into in a
moment, but I currently
have a sort of co working
space in Manchester
called Ministry of work,
and
Lea Turner (01:07):
that's
exactly where we are
today. And I came to know
you several years ago
when we did some one to
one LinkedIn training,
and that was after you
exited your business, and
you've gone on to you've
started go founder, which
helps support small
businesses like the
people that are listening
in growing and you
provide coaching via
various experts. And
(01:28):
you're also running this
beautiful co working
space in Manchester,
which is a an ex church.
Eddie Whittingham (01:35):
Yes,
it was a chapel that I
decided, in my infinite
wisdom I came to look
around. It was literally
a church. And I sort of
ran my life and said, I
think I just bought an
old church.
Lea Turner (01:47):
How did that
go down?
Eddie Whittingham (01:49):
Well,
she's used to it, so,
yeah, sure you have heard
it. No, I have. This is
what we're going to do
with
Lea Turner (01:55):
it. I mean,
it's been a wild ride to
actually get it to where
it is now. And if anyone
hasn't seen it, I do urge
you to go and have a look
at Ministry of work in
Manchester. It's a
stunning venue, and what
you've done to it is
incredible. But what I
find more interesting in
terms of the journey that
you've been on, because
you started as a police
officer, right? Yeah, and
you've worked a real
(02:16):
variety of different
jobs, which then led you
to starting a business in
cyber security, which you
exited, yes, which was
nothing to do with
anything that you done
previously, and then you
bought a church to turn
to a co working space.
And the thing that I find
really interesting in
that is that the vast
majority of entrepreneurs
and business owners when
(02:36):
exiting a business,
there's a sort of
addiction to the
adrenaline rush of of
growing something and
exiting and starting from
scratch again, growing
exiting, and it tends to
be a pattern, but you
broke the pattern there,
and you didn't decide to
start something that
would be scalable and not
that you couldn't sell,
but you chose a suspect,
(02:58):
more of a lifestyle
business, rather than
going the startup route
again, yeah, why?
Eddie Whittingham (03:05):
Good
question. I think, well,
I suppose first of I'd
never write off doing it
again. I think
everything's sort of
right time, right place,
depending what you want.
I think with me, I had a
SaaS business, built up,
very lucky, worked really
hard, but also got a bit
of luck, the sort of
sliding doors moments all
aligned for me. And when
I sold it, my daughter
had just been born. I've
now got two daughters,
(03:27):
and it's kind of like, do
I kind of really be
asked, like, I know how
hard I worked on that
first business, you know,
endless weekends lost,
you know, didn't take
holidays. Didn't take
weekends. I'm not doing
that to glorify the
hustle. I just, I just
didn't, I just I just
didn't. I just worked,
the fact that you made
sacrifices, right
exactly, and I worked
extremely hard, and I
couldn't, and wouldn't
want to do that now,
because my kids are at
(03:48):
the perfect age to spend
time with them, and I'm
also, you know, uniquely
and very, very privileged
to be in the position I
am in. So I appreciate
how lucky I am. I think
the thing that was
interesting for me when I
did sell the business
that I probably didn't
appreciate it straight
away was you sort of sell
your colleagues, and
you've kind of got your
whole social circle
surrounded by those
people, because that's
Lea Turner (04:08):
been your
entire life. You've lived
and breathed, yeah,
exactly you, and you
created that
Eddie Whittingham (04:12):
team
as well. So while I
wasn't, sort of not in a
hub where I wasn't sad to
see the business go, you
know, I didn't have my
identity wrapped up in
it, I was sad to sort of
see the people go, and
then all of a sudden it
was covid. It was covid
as well. So I sat in an
attic room of a house a
bit bored, frankly, and I
thought I always had in
my mind, even prior to an
(04:33):
exit, that maybe a co
working space in the
suburbs would work really
well, because I'm bit old
now, got kids, I can't
really be asking if they
sit at center as much. So
I figured that maybe that
would be a good shout,
plus a bit of an
investment. For me, it's
an asset and an income.
Secondly, I get to then
surround myself by cool
people again. So it's
kind of like the draw of
I can, I can surround
(04:54):
myself by people that
inspire me and that
that's like, that's what
gets me up in the
morning. Truthfully,
yeah. Yeah,
Lea Turner (05:00):
and I think
anyone listening to this,
watching this, can relate
to how isolating it can
be when you're growing
any kind of business.
That's why I started my
community, and I was
painfully lonely when I
had my first business. I
went from working in a
busy office surrounded by
fun people to suddenly
being on my own in my
flat, and I was bored of
the four walls I was born
(05:20):
of working 14 hour days
and never seeing anyone,
I could go days without
seeing someone. That's
why I got Bronson
initially, because I was
like, I'm bloody lonely,
like, I need some sort of
reason to leave the house
and get fresh air,
because I just wouldn't
otherwise. And I think,
you know, community's
been a hugely important
part of me, scaling my
businesses personally,
but also my motivation
(05:41):
and my, I guess,
appreciation and
encouragement from the
people around me, and the
inspiration that you get
from seeing other people
doing what you want to
do, right? But one of the
things that's really
unique about you, and if
anyone's ever followed
your content on LinkedIn,
you are brutal with the
realities of running a
business, and you come at
it from an interesting
combination of angles
because you've been
(06:01):
employed, you've worked
in public services within
the police, which can't
have been easy. I've got
family members in the
police, and I know that's
that is personally
incredibly taxing. You've
grown a startup and
exited it, which must
have meant you were
around a lot of
bullshitters. Let's be
honest. Now, you're quite
prolific on LinkedIn in
calling out a lot of that
(06:21):
bullshit, because you're
I think it would be fair
to say you're quite
fiercely protective of
how difficult it is for
small business owners and
making sure that they get
a real reality check on
what it's actually like
to grow a startup and the
sacrifice involved. We've
got a lot of people that
are out there that are
already on top of their
(06:42):
game in business, and
they're very willing to
give out all of this
quite generic, vapid
advice that sounds nice
in little sound bites on
pretty Canva graphics,
exactly. But it's not the
truth, or it's not the
full truth, no.
Eddie Whittingham (06:57):
And I
think we see that sort of
story arc happen quite a
lot. We have a somebody
who starts out well
intended, works really
hard, gets successful, of
a degree, and then
converts into this happy
clappy, you know, for the
masses kind of appeal.
And it is shit. It's just
an
Lea Turner (07:16):
ice bar. They
Eddie Whittingham (07:19):
don't,
they haven't forgotten.
They know full well, it's
hard. It's not as
marketable. It's not as
marketable. And the bit
that pisses me off is the
fact that I think they're
treading on people's
heads, rather than
bringing people up. Yeah,
like, that's I think, you
know, early stage
founders are so
vulnerable, they're in a
uniquely vulnerable
position, not obviously a
vulnerable in general
(07:40):
society way, but a
vulnerable position,
because they're looking
for help from people.
They think that can help
them, whether rightly or
wrongly, I was on
accelerate program, and
they sort of wheeled out
some people who, it
transpires, were not nice
people. Once in prison,
one's been done for tax
fraud. And these were
people that at the time,
when I first started, I
(08:01):
was very naive and like,
Oh, these are, these are
gods to me almost, and I
can learn from them. And
I had meetings with both
of those people I've just
mentioned Yeah. And I
think, yeah, you're in a
uniquely vulnerable
position. And so I want
to be the, I don't know,
the the truth teller in
it all.
Lea Turner (08:19):
And I think,
I think you are, and I
and I love to read your
posts. I love to because
you are very straight to
the point, yeah, and I
think we need that
reality check. As you
know, I'm not growing a
startup. I'm I'm working
with a team of
freelancers. I don't want
employees. I don't want a
multi million business.
And there's a lot of
people out there, and I
think, personally, the
(08:40):
vast majority of people,
they're not starting a
business because they
want to be a tycoon on
dragons. They're starting
a business because they
want to be in control of
their future. They want
to be in control of their
income, their hours, that
they work. They want to
have a flexible
lifestyle. They want to
do something that brings
them joy. And they're not
looking to change the
world necessarily, just
(09:00):
changed their world,
yeah, and I, I mean, I
personally, I remember
going to see a
particularly well known
entrepreneur who stood on
stage and told everybody
that some of the key
things that he needs he
does is to take care of
his health. He has a
personal trainer, he has
a therapist. And I
remember thinking, when I
was a I am a solo parent,
(09:21):
and when I first started
my business, all I was
able to afford was the
best like I could just
about make ends meet. I
didn't have the time or
the resources to pay for
a personal trainer. I
certainly didn't have the
time or resources to pay
for a therapist. And I
would imagine when he
started, he didn't have
those things either, and
they've become part of
(09:42):
his lifestyle now, but
they didn't help him to
get very well, not
discounting the
importance of those
things, but the vast
majority of us do not
have those spare hours in
the day or the resources
to fund these lovely
little luxuries. And
actually, the reality
was, I was grafting. I
was waking up in the
morning, at 6am working
for an hour. Of my
business, driving to my
full time job, coming
(10:02):
back, doing the same in
reverse, sleeping six
hours and going again.
And it was like that for
an entire year before I
got and
Eddie Whittingham (10:08):
it's
really interesting, is
it? Because I try and
talk about that truth a
lot, yeah, but people
sometimes interpret that
as being negative, yeah?
And it's like, it's not,
it's not being there's a
difference between being
negative and being a
realist. Like, for most
small business, building
a business is one of the
hardest things you will
ever do, and it requires
a lot of sacrifice, and
that's not hustle porn or
(10:28):
anything like that. It's
just a reality, and it's
far easier to like and
buy into these concepts
that these sort of
superstars tell us. You
know, nothing's worth
your mental health, I can
assure you, as somebody
who definitely sacrificed
my mental health for
three years, it was worth
it, yeah, because I now
have a much easier ride
(10:49):
for the rest of my life.
And it's
Lea Turner (10:51):
not a popular
opinion, and it's
something that does
absolutely go against
grain, because we're not
discounting the
importance of mental
health, but I 100%
sacrificed my sanity. For
a good year, I was
exhausted, I had zero
social life, and you
should be applauded
Eddie Whittingham (11:05):
for it
either. And
Lea Turner (11:07):
I don't use
it as marketing porn to
sell a dream, but it was
my reality. But would I
do would I change it?
Would I do it
differently? No, I
wouldn't excuse me and go
back
Eddie Whittingham (11:19):
to
your original question.
Would I do it again? No,
hence I've done this,
because I actually value
my sanity. If I had to do
it again
Lea Turner (11:25):
at this
point, no, I wouldn't do
it again, because I've
got a child now, and my
mental health and my
health, I value that a
lot more now, because
it's not just me, yeah,
but if I had to go back
to being 26 would I do it
again? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because it got me, it
taught me so many
lessons, and it taught me
about the priorities that
are important to me and
I've I probably wouldn't
(11:45):
be so conscious of
looking after myself now,
if I hadn't gone to that
dark place and and worked
as hard as I did, and
completely burned out and
really
Eddie Whittingham (11:55):
interestingly
as well, like, so I
definitely went through
the whole burnout thing
as well. And people don't
talk enough about like, I
know plenty of people who
work as hard as I did and
never get that bit of
luck. People don't like
to admit they get luck
because it somehow
diminishes their
achievements. I luckily
the other way, yes, I
work damned hard. I got
myself in a position to
(12:16):
benefit from the look,
yeah, I still needed the
lock. Like, yeah, you
know, you make your own
look. I think you make
you give yourself the
opportunity to be in the
position to benefit from
the lock. So for me, it
was market conditions,
things that came around
the corner, like GDPR is
what really boosted our
business. Then it was a
market conditions of the
sale of the business, and
so on and so
Lea Turner (12:36):
on. And yeah,
the opportunities that
were presented to that,
yeah, some people don't
get that look, no. And I
was the same. Like, I
came onto LinkedIn six
months before the
pandemic, and I was
getting a lot of leads,
and I was getting a lot
of traction on my
content, because I was a
little bit different. And
I was different because I
look different, and I
can't discount that.
Like, there were not many
(12:57):
people with hand and neck
tap. There still aren't.
There was not many people
that looked like me on
LinkedIn, and that
absolutely got me
attention. But it wasn't
enough to keep the
attention. Then covid
happened, and my little
humor filled silly posts
about life and reality
and quite vulnerable and
and sometimes insightful.
Maybe it was different,
(13:18):
but covid needs meant
that people needed that,
yeah. And so I rode the
wave, and there was a lot
of people that were
suddenly learning to
network online, and
suddenly needed to be
able to get clients
online. And I went, Oh,
okay, this it happened to
be like, I'm not
suggesting that the
pandemic was a good
thing, but the timing of
(13:39):
it, yeah, for me, because
it annihilated my other
business, and my hand was
forced. I had to have a
go. I had to take the
opportunity when it
presented itself. And I
did, and I rode that wave
and it and it did very
well for me. But if I'd
have just carried on
doing the transcription
work and the pandemic
hadn't happened, I
probably would still be
doing it now, and I would
(14:00):
be, you know, my hands
would be arthritic, and I
would be losing all of my
work to AI. So I
absolutely wouldn't be
sat here. So I 100% agree
there is luck, and you
can't necessarily plan
for that. It just
happens. And you have to
recognize, yeah, you
Eddie Whittingham (14:16):
get
more opportunities. The
harder you work,
generally, the more
opportunities are. But
the more people you need,
yeah, exactly.
Lea Turner (14:21):
And the more
you put yourself out
there to be found by
those opportunities.
That's where social media
comes in so well, right?
Because the more you talk
openly about what you're
doing, what your what
your missions are, your
values are, who you are
as a person, the more
people are aware of you,
and opportunities can
find you. And that's
that's, you know,
important for everybody,
and that's, you know, the
power of a personal brand
online, everyone harps on
(14:41):
about it, but having a
presence where more
people are aware of you
is is beneficial in that
way. So what are the
common things that you
see, whether it's online
or in in the people that
you've worked with, and
obviously there are so
many business owners here
at the ministry, what are
some common things that
you see? People. People
making mistakes with in
their first sort of few
(15:02):
years of business.
Eddie Whittingham (15:05):
I
think it's probably, and
I should add, I've done
some of these so people
are alone. Yeah, I think
it's sometimes trying to
run before you can walk.
I think vanity plays a
bigger influence than
people like to give
credit for. So there's
the obvious stuff, like
vanity metrics on social
media, but even people
who you wouldn't perceive
(15:25):
to be vain. So like a
friend of mine, I'm sure
won't mind me sharing
this story. He we both
want to accelerate
together. We left the
accelerator. I went and
got a deep, dark, dingy
office. Wasn't great. It
cost me 350 quid a month,
which is a lot cheaper
than I charge here. And
(15:45):
meanwhile, he went to get
like, a four man office
in WeWork, and I was
admitting I was turning
over less at the time.
But his premise was
always, well, I need that
to attract like the
staff, because I'm going
to I need the best staff
in my business. And we're
in the city center,
bloody blood, right? But
then two years, or fast
forward, two years, I
built up to a team of,
say, I think probably
(16:05):
about six. By then, the
staff loved being out at
the city center because
they got free parking and
stuff like that. He was
in the city center, and
he still hadn't hired
anyone, wow. So he'd
wasted two years at two
grand a month, yeah, and
for no value. And he
could have been sat at
home, for example, or
whatever, but, and
ultimately, that
contributed to cash flow
and killing the business.
(16:25):
So it but he wasn't
somebody you'd, you'd
necessarily look at as
vain. But he wanted to,
Lea Turner (16:32):
he wanted,
Eddie Whittingham (16:34):
yeah,
exactly. And he wanted to
feel like he was an
entrepreneur, not not be
one. And I think there's
a difference, and
Lea Turner (16:41):
that is a
trap a lot of us,
hundreds and not one.
I've personally fallen
into, actually, and I've
been lucky, but I've
always worked from home
for the I did it before.
It was cool. I did I was
working for home for
years before the pandemic
forced everybody home.
And I haven't. I would
say that I've been quite
lucky to avoid that in in
most respects, but it is
something that I've seen
a lot of, especially
(17:01):
young male entrepreneurs,
I think there's that that
pressure to look the
part, whether it's the
clothes that they wear,
the car that they drive,
a watch that they wear.
There's a certain I want
to project success rather
than actually focus on
creating the success. And
I'd have personal friends
that have said, you know,
(17:22):
they did make that
mistake in the first few
Eddie Whittingham (17:24):
years.
Yeah, oh, yeah. And
there's, like, there's
elements of, like,
acceptable stuff about
being vain, like the
whole, I don't really
want to, like, I had a
cybersecurity business,
and I knew to attract
some of the business that
we're doing if they
thought I was a one man
band, there was
absolutely no way in hell
I was going to get an
opportunity to do a demo,
whatever, so it would be
the royal way. And blah,
blah, blah. And I
(17:45):
remember to play the
game. I remember LinkedIn
in I was like, Oh, how do
I make this, like, seem a
bit more credible?
Because clearly I'm just
a fucking idiot who's
just made this up. So I
messaged the head of
Global cybercrime for the
United Nations on
LinkedIn, wow, guy called
Neil. Really nice guy. I
said, Look, would you I
don't suppose I
appreciate you've never
heard from me. You're
clearly very busy. You've
(18:05):
probably got quite
important shit to do, and
I am just a fucking
idiot. But would you jump
on a webinar one day?
Replied, like, within the
hour, yeah. And then I
did. So in the like,
first month of this
business I've dreamt up,
I was on a video call
with the United Nation
Under global cyber crime,
amazing. And I,
obviously, I kind of
leverage that a lot to my
to open a few doors, but
(18:27):
it's that client kind of,
the don't actually don't
get kind of thing, and
then the power of that
networking. So there's an
element of using you,
using vanity in a
positive way, versus
wasting cash or being
distracted by the wrong
Lea Turner (18:43):
things. And
arguably, you know,
vanity is often equated
with ego, but you
swallowed your ego to
actually just ask, ask
this absolute, you know,
Eddie Whittingham (18:56):
life,
yeah, having a little bit
of us, you don't get,
yeah, right, and that's
Lea Turner (18:59):
something
that I think a lot of us
are afraid to do. We're
like, well, we're nobody.
Why would they respond to
us? We won't even try.
And I saw an amazing talk
by Andrew and Pete from
tomicom. Tomicom their
conference this year,
which is always an
incredible event, but
they were talking about
knocking down a big
Domino, and they had on
their list of of events
that they wanted to speak
(19:20):
at was social media
world, I think in San
Francisco somewhere like
that. And they called it
their big Domino. Now,
you can put up a million
little dominoes, but they
were no, no, I want to go
straight to the big
Domino, because the big
Domino is going to knock
down all of the other
dominoes. So I'm going to
go for the big domino
first, rather than try
and build up all the
little ones to get to the
(19:40):
big one eventually. And
so they found out what
they needed to do, and
they went for it. And
they eventually got the
gig, and they had to jump
through a lot of hoops,
but they got there, and
they were talking about
having the audacity to go
for the big goal from the
off, and that's scary,
but I loved the premise
of it. And I thought
about it, I thought
actually that is. What I
did because got my
(20:01):
Audacity. I was only
using LinkedIn for six
months before I did start
training people how to do
it, but I had the
opportunity. Why wouldn't
I? And it's, it's big,
scary things that we go
for sometimes that we
think, Oh, I'm massively
under qualified. On
Earth. Would they listen
to me? But they can
change your life, and
they can fast forward you
to a point that would
ordinarily take you
(20:22):
years. It's not always
going to go your way, of
course, but it's having
the courage to ask and
getting out of your
comfort zone.
Eddie Whittingham (20:28):
Yeah.
I mean, the business I
sold was in
cybersecurity. I'd been
the police for nine
years. I hadn't done
cybersecurity in that
whatsoever. I then went
into law, which I fucking
hated. I hadn't done
cybersecurity in that
either. I just saw an
opportunity. I was like,
there's loads of stuff
happening in that sector
that's massive, and it's
growing, yeah, and it's
all dull as shit. If I do
something that's not as
shit, I think I can sell
(20:49):
it. And so I just Googled
it, and it sounds stupid,
but that's what I did.
Like it. That's what I
you know, I didn't have
any cyber knowledge. I
learned shit. But
arguably,
Lea Turner (20:58):
that is the
sign of a great
entrepreneur, whether
you're an entrepreneur
yet, or you're going to
be one, if you're the
kind of person that spots
an opportunity and then
has the bollocks to give
it a shot. Yeah,
Eddie Whittingham (21:10):
naivety,
belligerence, they both
played a part,
delusional, but yeah, a
little bit like we're in
an age now where it's
easier than ever to start
a business, and it's even
easier to start a
business in something
you're not even qualified
in, rightly and wrongly,
I should add, yes,
absolutely, but, but if
you see an opportunity,
(21:30):
then, then, yeah, don't
be shy about it.
Lea Turner (21:33):
Sorry for the
interruption, but I've
simply got to tell you
about The Vault. The
Vault is our light
membership to The HoLT
for just 20 pounds, you
can access more than 85
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(21:53):
with quite literally 10s
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vault and no contract or
commitment. Some might
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Netflix for business
growth. You can sign up
at the-holt.com/vault,
and see for yourself. Now
back to our conversation.
The best entrepreneurs I
witness are the people
that will take risks and
(22:16):
not be afraid to fail.
And I definitely see too
many people playing it
safe because they're
worried what other people
will think of them, or
they're worried that it
might not work out. But
I'm I always find that
the other business owners
that I relate to the most
are the people that are
willing to screw up and
they're not embarrassed
(22:37):
to share their screw ups,
because that helps other
people to avoid the same
screw ups, and it also
means that they will get
somewhere quicker,
because they'll keep
trying, keep trying, keep
trying until they get
there. And, you know,
keep brushing yourself
off. Take a lesson from
it. Do better next time.
And I think that's that's
something that I we've
witnessed a lot on we've
witnessed people
succeeding a lot on
(22:57):
social media, but we
don't hear enough about
the people that fail.
They just disappear for a
while, come back with
something new and never
tell you what happened.
Eddie Whittingham (23:04):
And
the sad reality, I think,
is, unfortunately, why,
like, my stuff rarely
goes viral. It hasn't
ever really would. It's
because people often like
the sort of fluffier
stuff, generally not
saying. And it could be,
yeah, I think it's easier
to be inspired by
something fluffy and and
(23:26):
lovely than it is to like
some honest, hard,
gritty, yeah, kind of
reality.
Lea Turner (23:31):
And it's not
Yeah, it's not the social
media highlight reel that
you know quite Yeah. And
that's the whole point of
this podcast. Is we want
to get rid of that idea
that anybody can start a
business, right? Anybody?
Yes, anybody can 12 quid,
but is everybody, no,
meant to start a
business? Now, I've got
(23:52):
some friends that are
100% are not ever going
to be business owners,
and they shouldn't be
business owners. They're
not risk takers. They are
not people who think
outside the box. They
need the structure. They
need the safety of
employment that is just
who they are, and they're
accepting of it, and
they're happy with their
lot, and they're they
don't want to do what I
do. Just the anxiety of
trying to find your own
clients, and that, up and
down emotionally, would
(24:12):
destroy them, and it
destroys me, like, on a
on a weekly basis, I
think about giving it all
up and not not keep
going, and I'd imagine,
during your startup life,
during all of them,
people say to you, how
many times a week do you
want to give up being an
entrepreneur? Like every
day, probably every day.
And even when it starts
getting easier, there are
still points on at least
(24:34):
monthly basis, where you
guys totally up
Eddie Whittingham (24:36):
and
down. And sometimes you
get in so deep, a bit
like the place we're in
now, the workspace,
obviously, I had to do a
whole conversion of a
church, and we got so far
in, yeah, like,
emotionally, financially,
it's like, this really
fucking better work, or I
have wasted that a lot of
money, and there's no and
there's no way out there,
kind of, yeah, you've
just got to keep going
and come to the other
(24:56):
end, when you can finally
open your doors and then
hope Yeah. So it's yeah,
it's not. Down, Jenny,
but, but like most people
listen to this who are
business, they probably
won't change it for the
world, truthfully. And
Lea Turner (25:05):
that's true,
isn't it? Because as sick
as it sounds, it is fun,
yeah, like the variety on
a day to day basis, of
the different things that
you're doing and the new
challenges that present
themselves, even when
you're constantly
fighting fires, there is
an element of of perverse
amusement and fun in it.
Eddie Whittingham (25:22):
I get
asked a lot for good
reason, why am I still
doing stuff? Because I
could not be working
retiring, but how boring
would it be? Yeah, quite
and, like, genuinely, the
thrill for me is the
learning. So there's
probably a reason I had a
SaaS business. I've had
an E commerce but I've
got an E commerce
business. I've got, like,
(25:43):
co founder, I've got this
as, like a location, but
it's because I love
learning, like, I've
never done a renovation
before of certainly not
this scale, but that's
kind of the learning of
it. And now I can go into
another room of people,
yeah, that's exactly it,
and that's the bit I
love. And I think, I
think, I do think
there'll be another kind
of bigger idea
eventually.
Lea Turner (26:03):
Well, not,
not now, not why your
kids are little, probably
not. And it's funny. And
I was talking about this
with one of our other
guests, but I had a guy
who's grown or invested
in an ex to date
businesses, and he came
to me probably two years
ago and said, Let's grow
you a LinkedIn agency.
I'll invest you bring
people on. We'll have
content creators, VAs
(26:25):
running people's accounts
for them. We do all of
that. And I was like,
Yeah, I could do that.
And I could probably exit
it for multiple millions
in a couple of years. And
I went, do you want to do
it? And I genuinely I sat
there and I said, I don't
want to do that. And he
messaged me, commented
one of my posts recently
and said, I'm really
proud of you for sticking
to what you knew was what
(26:46):
you wanted to do, and
I've grown the halt since
then. And you know, he's
already once, first
refused on buying that if
I ever should decide to
sell. And it's lovely to
know that there are
people out there that
believe in me and my
abilities, but that
wasn't what brought me
joy. That wasn't I knew.
That wasn't on the car
for me, I didn't have,
you know, I love what
Carrie Rose has done with
rise at seven. I think
she's a very
inspirational woman to
(27:06):
have done it at such a
young age, whether I'd
have made the same
decisions or done the
same things. You know,
not everybody agrees with
what she does and how she
does it, but what she's
achieved is incredible.
And I sat with her on a
panel recently and
listened to her story,
and one of the things she
said is, you know, if
you're going to be a
great entrepreneur, the
key characteristic you
need is curiosity. And I
(27:26):
said, 100% you do because
it is that learning. It's
that constant thirst for
knowledge to problem
solve, to find solutions,
to find opportunities.
And you don't get any of
those things without
curiosity, about people,
about business, about new
processes, about
technology, all of those
things. That's really
interesting
Eddie Whittingham (27:43):
point,
honestly, because I
think, like so literally,
the day I sold my
business, within a week
of that, I bought a few
crappy mics, a few a
couple of crappy cameras,
not too crappy, but to
basically, like, record a
couple of podcasts, yeah,
almost like my first
delve into that, and then
I learned how to edit
properly, and I use Final
Cut Pro and I edited the
(28:03):
videos because I had the
time to, like, Finally,
put a bit of time into
that creative side of it.
And yeah, it's that, is
that curiosity. It's
like, oh, I want to be
able to just at least
have a baseline
understanding or
knowledge. And then that
really is probably why
I've got content studio
here. If I hadn't done
that, we probably
wouldn't have this here,
because I wouldn't have
had enough even baseline
knowledge to entertain
it. It had been a
completely fanciful idea.
(28:24):
I think it
Lea Turner (28:24):
also makes it
so much easier when you
do start outsourcing.
Because for me, when I
first started with the
LinkedIn training, I
didn't know any I didn't
even, I'd never even run
a zoom call, and I did my
first training session.
It was the first time I'd
ever run a zoom call. Had
no idea what I was doing.
I'd never trained anyone
to do anything, so I was
completely clueless. And
I went, I'm gonna give it
a go. And I gave it a go.
And then I was like,
(28:44):
right? I could do a
webinar, and I didn't
know how to set up
Calendly. I didn't know
how to set up a webinar.
I didn't know how to make
slides. And I got on
Canva, and I was like,
this is bloody great. And
spent an entire night
creating slides on Canva,
going, Oh, my God, this
is so much fun. I'm
really enjoying this. And
it wasn't being on Canva,
I was learning new design
skills, trying things
out, experimenting, going
no, that was terrible,
(29:05):
and it just kept me going
all the time. And that
Curiosity has, and not
just the curiosity, then
the motivation to follow
through with my
curiosity, has taught me
skills, and I learned
email marketing, I
learned sales, I've
learned all sorts of tech
that I never a million
years imagined that I'd
understand. I've learned
about investment of so
much stuff, but now, when
(29:27):
I hire people to do what
I need them to do, I have
a base amount of
knowledge, and I'm like,
I need you to do this,
and I need you to do it
better than I can do it.
Going
Eddie Whittingham (29:35):
back
to that conversation
around mistakes, I think
that is, that is a big
one, where people don't,
they just, they think
they can just delegate
stuff. And you can't just
exclusively delegate. You
have to have a baseline
knowledge of everything
in your business before
you hire somebody. Yeah,
I I think you should hire
people better than you,
and like the
Lea Turner (29:52):
better. How
do you know what's good
unless exactly you've had
a go at it yourself, or,
you know, I hired Alex
Thompson, who has been
on. Podcast who does my
email marketing for me. I
was doing all my own
email marketing before
that, and he looked at
it, and he was like,
Yeah, it's pretty good,
actually, but we can
improve it by doing this,
this and this. And I
went, Oh, yeah, that
would help that, and that
would help that. And then
I learned from how he
(30:13):
improved things, and I
carried on doing some of
it myself, until I got to
the point where I was
like, now I fully want to
outsource it all to you,
Eddie Whittingham (30:21):
yeah?
And to an expert, yeah?
Collaborate, yeah. That
knowledge prior, you'd
have probably hired a
mediocre person, because
you wouldn't know any
better 100% that's the
challenge in it. And I
think
Lea Turner (30:32):
that's
something that I
recommend to everybody,
is do learn to do as
much. And that's part of
the reason we have the
Hulk, right, because the
vast majority of people
at the beginning,
especially if their small
business journey, do not
have the funds to
outsource for all of the
different services they
could possibly need. And
you're not going to have
someone to build you a
landing page and start
your lead magnet and run
digital ads and all of
(30:53):
this. You won't have the
budget for it, but you
can learn a certain
amount of it yourself,
and we give them the
skills to do that, and
then they can have a go
themselves. And of
course, when they're
ready to actually
outsource it, they've got
a trusted expert at their
fingertips that they've
already learned from to
go to. So it's one hand
washes the other, and we
get them to that stage
where they can outsource
and then give them a
(31:14):
great expert to do it to.
And it works so well
because it's so hard to
find the time to learn
all those new skills. But
you don't know who you're
hiring. You could be
buying, God knows how
many courses and learning
terrible techniques. You
have to be so careful
with where you're you're
spending that limited
amount of money at the
beginning. You need to
spend it on people that
you trust, and there are
(31:34):
too many charlatans out
there. And that's
something that you talk
about a lot in your
content, and maybe we can
touch on that right now
is, what is it that you
would advise any small
business owner if they're
thinking about, say,
getting a mentor or a
coach or hiring a service
that they need, what are
some things that have
helped you to ensure that
you're hiring good people
(31:56):
that can be trusted? I
mean, I'm sure you've
made mistakes in in in
hiring and outsourcing?
Yeah, I have as well. But
Eddie Whittingham (32:03):
I
think fundamentally, you
need to see, like, proof
of their work. And I'm
trying to find a way to
verify that as well,
because people can fake
it, or I just wouldn't
take anything on face
value as after that
sounds, because we can
all pretend, yeah, I see
it all the time, just ask
stuff like someone who's
got four times founder in
(32:24):
the headline. That sounds
really impressive, but
all it means is you've
spent 12 pound to
register a business four
times. That's literally
six pounds. That's all it
qualifies you for. Yeah,
company's
Lea Turner (32:36):
house, if
they've got limited
companies, yeah. How many
have been dissolved? How
many have been struck
off?
Eddie Whittingham (32:41):
What
quite for what reason?
And yeah, there's endless
weeks. So it's just like
delving under the hood a
little bit and really
looking who you work
with, get case studies,
try and speak to their
clients.
Lea Turner (32:51):
That's funny.
You should raise that
actually, because I
remember a few years ago,
there was somebody who
was quite a well known
copywriter, and they
famously would say they
and use it as a marketing
tactic. I don't let
potential clients speak
to previous clients. And
I went red flag, yeah,
that's a bit weird. That
seems a very strange
thing to say. I'm very
(33:12):
open, and I'm, you know,
there's hundreds of
recommendations on my
profile, and I quite
openly say you can
contact anyone, anyone
that you see has worked
with me, put my name in,
find people that have
worked with me, have a
conversation with them,
because I'm confident
that nobody is going to
come back and say she
wasn't worth the
investment. And I don't
mind people doing that
ever. And I always say to
(33:33):
people, you know, don't
just go on the social
media content and don't
just go on the results
that they get for
themselves if they can't
replicate the results for
other people. That's the
worst, because they can't
get you results. Just
because they can get it
for themselves doesn't
mean they can
Eddie Whittingham (33:47):
get it
for you. And I see that a
lot on LinkedIn. You
know, they've, they've
managed to get, I don't
know, the classic one of
them is like, I do 10k
months. I can do it for
you too. And it's like,
Yeah, but you're talking
about yourself, yeah.
You're not talking about
Joe sells whatever he
sells. Yeah,
Lea Turner (34:02):
show me that
you can do it for other
people in in the niche
that you specialize in,
or in a variety of
niches. Like I do. I also
one of the other things I
always suggest to try and
verify someone's
expertise. Because it's
so easy to just run a
blog through chat GPT and
ask it to turn into three
social media posts, and
you sound like an expert.
You know what you're
talking about. Tweak a
few of the bits
vocabulary. Now it sounds
(34:23):
like me. I always say
you've got to listen to
them speak, and whether
that's on a stage or on a
podcast or an audio
event, that's where I cut
my teeth, and that's
where I built my
authority, and it's
because I can't just
Google and answer. No one
can
Eddie Whittingham (34:37):
hide
behind when you've got,
you know, that's not good
question. You're gonna
get exposed at it, right?
Yeah, and
Lea Turner (34:43):
there's only
so many times you can
quote from the Bible of
Gary V people aren't
people are gonna know if
you're always repeating
yourself, saying the same
thing, there needs to be
original thought there
that shows that you
really know what you're
talking about, that you
can have an off the cuff
conversation and express
genuine insights. Mm.
From your own perspective
that are unique. The
Eddie Whittingham (35:03):
other
one as well, is not
because I've made this
mistake, is not signed
into those long term
contracts, because,
obviously, that's
sometimes a sales ploy,
and, oh, it's, you know,
you need a commitment,
which is fine. And I get
that. I get that from a
sales perspective. But if
you're a small business
and someone's asking you
to sign up for a grand a
month for 12 months, if
you haven't done your due
diligence, like I haven't
previously, and they're
shit. Read those
(35:23):
contracts, yeah, then
you're in trouble. So, or
you've least locked in
something else, no more
value, yeah. So I think
even just being mindful
as to that, you know, you
can negotiate contracts.
You don't have to take
it, they might turn out
of fine, but then you
also could be a bit
suspicious.
Lea Turner (35:39):
Contracts are
like, and Sam Walkley is
my wonderful contracts
guy. They have been my
saving grace on so many
occasions. I've never got
myself into any kind of
legal recourse,
thankfully. But one of
those reasons is I've
been very careful with
the contracts and the
terms and conditions in
everything that I do. And
I have been burned. I
remember when I released
my first digital course,
(35:59):
I was talked into having
a no questions asked
refund policy, because
that will sell more
courses. And of course,
what happened then was I
had a bunch of people
from a specific location
in the world that that
bought the course, told
their friends bought the
course, all watched it in
like two hours, and then
immediately asked for a
(36:20):
refund. And I was like,
Oh, you haven't actually
implemented anything. And
I was suddenly issuing 10
refunds to people that
literally just binged
everything or potentially
copied it all and then
asked for refund. I was
like, right, and I can't
there's nothing I could
do about it, because I
had a the T's and C's
meant that anybody could
ask for a refund. So I
changed it when I
released my new one to
say we'll be checking
(36:41):
that you've actually done
the work, and you need to
have spent at least this
much time consistently
doing it. And if you're
still not getting results
and you've not made the
cost of the course back,
we will issue and no one
has asked for a refund
since, because it's a
really good course, and
it those lessons have
really taught me that I
need to read the small
print of and I hate doing
Eddie Whittingham (37:01):
it
both sides. It can
benefit to protect you,
but they're also you just
need to make sure they
overly protected with the
people you're buying from
as well, because you can
get yourself and when
Lea Turner (37:12):
you get
burned, make sure that
you make the amendments.
And this has happened to
like people in my team,
where they've had a
terrible client that's
come along and they've
gone, oh my god, this is
awful, and I'm stuck
working with them for
three months. You need to
get out clause. And you
know, they've updated it
say, you know, if you
treat my team members
badly or you're rude to
us, we reserve the right
to terminate you as a
client. And they've
they've gone, oh no, this
(37:32):
awful thing has happened.
I said, Okay, it's
terrible, and it's really
frustrating. But what can
we learn right now? We
update your contract, we
add an extra line in. So
if this happens again,
you've got to get out
clause. And I've done the
same thing with mine.
Every time I got burned,
I take it as a lesson. I
can now improve my
processes, because no one
gets it right first time.
No.
Eddie Whittingham (37:51):
And I
always say, like most
startup is you just need
to be able to survive the
mistakes that you make,
because you're going to
make them, but you can't
make a catastrophic
mistake. You just got to
learn from your series of
mistakes and hopefully
still be alive, and then
that generally means
you'll do All right,
Lea Turner (38:05):
yeah, and
it's nice to know that
there are companies like
your co founder company
that they're trying to
help people for all the
right reasons, and
they're not charging
extortion amounts of
money as mentors and
business coaches, because
there are business
Coaching is probably one
of the most abused
industries. I know some
incredible business
coaches that are
genuinely worth their
(38:26):
weight in gold, and they
are so dedicated to their
craft, and they spend so
much time learning to be
the very best that they
can be, and get
incredible results with
people. But there are,
for every good one,
there's 100 bad ones that
are shilling things on
Facebook, selling you
blueprints that work,
supposedly for everybody,
and it's such a minefield
to find like, if I was
(38:47):
looking for a business
coach, and I'm lucky that
I've, I've never felt the
need to have one, but I
have. I'm surrounded by
wonderful mentors that I
can always ask for input
from, just as a sounding
board, is this a good
idea or not? But if I was
to go for a business
coach, I'd want to pick
somebody that has done
what I want to achieve.
Eddie Whittingham (39:05):
That's
my general advice, people
is like, you know, find
someone in the sector,
or, you know, a few steps
ahead at
Lea Turner (39:12):
you, at least
somebody's got useful
contacts as well. Yeah,
Eddie Whittingham (39:15):
and,
and don't again. Don't be
afraid to be cheeky as
well. Like, you don't
have to pay for a
business coach. You can
get some people will help
you for free again,
though you need to do due
diligence, because they
could be total harsh.
Lea Turner (39:28):
Yeah, and
that's something that
I've I've got fair bit of
business insight from
people that are clients
of mine that have wanted
to repay the favor,
because they've got good
results, and they're
like, You know what I'd
really love to say thank
you if you ever want some
free coaching, and I have
taken advantage of it on
a few occasions and and
it's been wonderful to
do, because I know that
(39:49):
having worked with them,
they are people that I
can trust, who do have
great results and are
nice people to work with,
which has definitely
helped. So Eddie, if you
could go back. To
yourself, maybe at the
beginning of your startup
journey, and in part, a
piece of advice that
would have helped you to
(40:11):
do what you achieved, but
maybe not have taken the
personal toll on it you
took or made things a
little bit easier that
you think would be useful
for the people that are
listening today. What do
you think you'd share?
Eddie Whittingham (40:24):
I
think it would be a bit
of advice I was given
that I sort of listened
to in moments, but not
consistently enough,
which was, follow the
money. And it's such a
simple thing to ask
yourself when you you're
working day to day in
your business, is, is
what you're doing, and
you'll be sat there
listening. Probably doing
some work while you
(40:44):
listen to this is what
you're doing right now,
closest to the money.
Yeah? If it isn't, fuck
it off and do the thing
that's gonna source it,
yeah, do the thing that's
gonna get you the money
and and I think it's
because, as a friend of
mine, she totally
brutally honest with me
at all times, and she'd
see me doing stupid shit,
like, I don't know,
(41:04):
changing the color of
something, I'll reform it
and something when I had,
you know, I'd just done a
demo last week, and I
should have been chasing
them to see if they
wanted to sign up. Yeah,
that does that sound but,
yeah. Just really having
that hyper focus on, on
the money and you know,
probably what? Put it
into perspective, I was
really lucky with the
(41:25):
valuation of my business.
I got, I got 10x of
revenue, which is, which
is amazing, but they
obviously weren't going
to give me the valuation
on any outstanding debt.
And so because I'd been
so busy with the business
and growing it, there's a
lot of invoices that
hadn't then chased for
payment, and they dragged
on and on and on and on
(41:46):
something like were
really old. Like, total
shame on me for not
chasing them. So then
when I sold the business,
each of those invoices
would have been worth 10
times the amount on that
invoice. Oh, ouch.
Obviously I had a very
fast attempt at claiming
a lot of those and get
them in. But it was kind
of quite an A good
example of like, follow
(42:07):
the money. Like, what if
you've done the work, get
the fucking money in the
till? Yeah, don't dick
around with and
Lea Turner (42:12):
we do spend,
we do spend too much time
things like that. And I
think an important part
of that as well is
actually you think you
know where the money is
when you start, but
sometimes that changes.
And I when I started with
the LinkedIn training, I
was like, you know, I'm
gonna I'm gonna do this,
I'm gonna do this, I'm
gonna do this. And
suddenly I was like, I'm
too busy. I'm working my
(42:35):
ass off. I need to
increase my prices as
much as I didn't want to
because I felt deep
imposter syndrome and
fear, and no one's gonna
hire me if I increase my
prices, and I increase
the prices. And really
good result from that.
And people were happy
still to pay for it. And
then I wanted to create
digital course and
digital resources, and I
kept finding where there
was opportunities to make
more money, and doubling
down and doing that,
(42:55):
there's loads of people
that couldn't afford one
to one call, create a
webinar, do 10,000 in a
day. People can't come up
with content content
ideas, great. Create a
resource of tons of
content ideas, 10 grand
in a day. And it was like
I hadn't thought of those
things at the beginning.
They were not there, no
but I listened. I was
actively listening to
what my clients and what
(43:16):
my community wanted, and
then going I could create
that and turning it into
something. And I could
have got very distracted
and just stayed in my
lane. I'm just doing the
LinkedIn training, but I
spotted opportunities for
money. And there's so
often things between the
cracks. You go, oh yeah,
that's an opportunity.
And if it's something
that you can turn around
pretty quickly, do it.
(43:38):
And yet, there was lots
of opportunity for me to
make money with group
coaching and group
programs, or do a year
long group program and
intense, intense one day
VIP experience. And I
didn't want to, and I and
I chose to follow what I
enjoyed doing, not the
money. In that situation,
Eddie Whittingham (43:54):
I only
like the advice build the
business you want,
because we can all get
carried away in chasing
the money, but if you
actually sit down and
look at what do I
actually want to be doing
day in day and reverse,
because you could easily
follow that group
coaching, but then all of
a sudden you'd be maxed
out group coaching,
stressed off your tears,
yeah, probably not the
business you want.
Lea Turner (44:13):
No, I tried
it and went, I don't like
it, and I liked the
people that I was working
with, but I do like the
format that I was
delivering the training
in. I like to be able to
do intensive sessions,
and I didn't want to be
charging 10 grand for a
premium one day VIP
experience, because I was
like, God, who am I to
be? That that's not how I
want to be delivering
things. And it's, it's
finding those
(44:33):
opportunities to make
money, but don't take
every opportunity,
because it's not always
going to suit you. Yeah,
and having the courage,
and obviously it's a
privileged position to be
able to say all those
things, but not doing
things, just because you
can doing things that you
want to do and that make
the money. That's where
the sweet spot is. Thank
you so much for joining
(44:53):
us today, Eddie, and for
providing the beautiful
studio that this whole
podcast has been in.
Sorry that Bronson, my co
host, abandoned us. Is
clearly tired for the
day. It's been a pleasure
chatting to you, and I
hope everyone's got some
really great insights
from it. Thanks a lot.
Thank you. Before you go,
I just need to tell you
about our brilliant
podcast sponsor that
aligns so well with our
own mission. At the halt,
(45:13):
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you next time you
There's
(00:00):
a difference between
being negative and being
a realist. Building a
business is one of the
hardest things you will
ever do, and it requires
a lot of sacrifice, and
that's not hustle porn or
anything like that. It's
just a reality, and it's
far easier to like and
buy into these concepts
that these sort of
superstars tell us
nothing's worth your
mental health, I can
assure you, as somebody
who definitely sacrificed
(00:21):
my mental health for
three years, it was worth
it, because I now have a
much easier ride for the
rest of my life.
Lea Turner (00:40):
Today, we're
welcoming Eddie
Whittingham to the HoLT
Survival Guide for small
businesses. And it's a
bit weird today, because
this is actually Eddie's
podcast studio that we
are in, and we are going
to talk a little bit more
about the business
ventures that you have.
But first, why don't you
introduce yourself to
everybody? Sure, thank
Eddie Whittingham (00:57):
you
for having me on. I'm
Eddie Whittingham. I've
got a bit of a potted
background that I'm sure
we'll get into in a
moment, but I currently
have a sort of co working
space in Manchester
called Ministry of work,
and
Lea Turner (01:07):
that's
exactly where we are
today. And I came to know
you several years ago
when we did some one to
one LinkedIn training,
and that was after you
exited your business, and
you've gone on to you've
started go founder, which
helps support small
businesses like the
people that are listening
in growing and you
provide coaching via
various experts. And
(01:28):
you're also running this
beautiful co working
space in Manchester,
which is a an ex church.
Eddie Whittingham (01:35):
Yes,
it was a chapel that I
decided, in my infinite
wisdom I came to look
around. It was literally
a church. And I sort of
ran my life and said, I
think I just bought an
old church.
Lea Turner (01:47):
How did that
go down?
Eddie Whittingham (01:49):
Well,
she's used to it, so,
yeah, sure you have heard
it. No, I have. This is
what we're going to do
with
Lea Turner (01:55):
it. I mean,
it's been a wild ride to
actually get it to where
it is now. And if anyone
hasn't seen it, I do urge
you to go and have a look
at Ministry of work in
Manchester. It's a
stunning venue, and what
you've done to it is
incredible. But what I
find more interesting in
terms of the journey that
you've been on, because
you started as a police
officer, right? Yeah, and
you've worked a real
(02:16):
variety of different
jobs, which then led you
to starting a business in
cyber security, which you
exited, yes, which was
nothing to do with
anything that you done
previously, and then you
bought a church to turn
to a co working space.
And the thing that I find
really interesting in
that is that the vast
majority of entrepreneurs
and business owners when
(02:36):
exiting a business,
there's a sort of
addiction to the
adrenaline rush of of
growing something and
exiting and starting from
scratch again, growing
exiting, and it tends to
be a pattern, but you
broke the pattern there,
and you didn't decide to
start something that
would be scalable and not
that you couldn't sell,
but you chose a suspect,
(02:58):
more of a lifestyle
business, rather than
going the startup route
again, yeah, why?
Eddie Whittingham (03:05):
Good
question. I think, well,
I suppose first of I'd
never write off doing it
again. I think
everything's sort of
right time, right place,
depending what you want.
I think with me, I had a
SaaS business, built up,
very lucky, worked really
hard, but also got a bit
of luck, the sort of
sliding doors moments all
aligned for me. And when
I sold it, my daughter
had just been born. I've
now got two daughters,
(03:27):
and it's kind of like, do
I kind of really be
asked, like, I know how
hard I worked on that
first business, you know,
endless weekends lost,
you know, didn't take
holidays. Didn't take
weekends. I'm not doing
that to glorify the
hustle. I just, I just
didn't, I just I just
didn't. I just worked,
the fact that you made
sacrifices, right
exactly, and I worked
extremely hard, and I
couldn't, and wouldn't
want to do that now,
because my kids are at
(03:48):
the perfect age to spend
time with them, and I'm
also, you know, uniquely
and very, very privileged
to be in the position I
am in. So I appreciate
how lucky I am. I think
the thing that was
interesting for me when I
did sell the business
that I probably didn't
appreciate it straight
away was you sort of sell
your colleagues, and
you've kind of got your
whole social circle
surrounded by those
people, because that's
Lea Turner (04:08):
been your
entire life. You've lived
and breathed, yeah,
exactly you, and you
created that
Eddie Whittingham (04:12):
team
as well. So while I
wasn't, sort of not in a
hub where I wasn't sad to
see the business go, you
know, I didn't have my
identity wrapped up in
it, I was sad to sort of
see the people go, and
then all of a sudden it
was covid. It was covid
as well. So I sat in an
attic room of a house a
bit bored, frankly, and I
thought I always had in
my mind, even prior to an
(04:33):
exit, that maybe a co
working space in the
suburbs would work really
well, because I'm bit old
now, got kids, I can't
really be asking if they
sit at center as much. So
I figured that maybe that
would be a good shout,
plus a bit of an
investment. For me, it's
an asset and an income.
Secondly, I get to then
surround myself by cool
people again. So it's
kind of like the draw of
I can, I can surround
(04:54):
myself by people that
inspire me and that
that's like, that's what
gets me up in the
morning. Truthfully,
yeah. Yeah,
Lea Turner (05:00):
and I think
anyone listening to this,
watching this, can relate
to how isolating it can
be when you're growing
any kind of business.
That's why I started my
community, and I was
painfully lonely when I
had my first business. I
went from working in a
busy office surrounded by
fun people to suddenly
being on my own in my
flat, and I was bored of
the four walls I was born
(05:20):
of working 14 hour days
and never seeing anyone,
I could go days without
seeing someone. That's
why I got Bronson
initially, because I was
like, I'm bloody lonely,
like, I need some sort of
reason to leave the house
and get fresh air,
because I just wouldn't
otherwise. And I think,
you know, community's
been a hugely important
part of me, scaling my
businesses personally,
but also my motivation
(05:41):
and my, I guess,
appreciation and
encouragement from the
people around me, and the
inspiration that you get
from seeing other people
doing what you want to
do, right? But one of the
things that's really
unique about you, and if
anyone's ever followed
your content on LinkedIn,
you are brutal with the
realities of running a
business, and you come at
it from an interesting
combination of angles
because you've been
(06:01):
employed, you've worked
in public services within
the police, which can't
have been easy. I've got
family members in the
police, and I know that's
that is personally
incredibly taxing. You've
grown a startup and
exited it, which must
have meant you were
around a lot of
bullshitters. Let's be
honest. Now, you're quite
prolific on LinkedIn in
calling out a lot of that
(06:21):
bullshit, because you're
I think it would be fair
to say you're quite
fiercely protective of
how difficult it is for
small business owners and
making sure that they get
a real reality check on
what it's actually like
to grow a startup and the
sacrifice involved. We've
got a lot of people that
are out there that are
already on top of their
(06:42):
game in business, and
they're very willing to
give out all of this
quite generic, vapid
advice that sounds nice
in little sound bites on
pretty Canva graphics,
exactly. But it's not the
truth, or it's not the
full truth, no.
Eddie Whittingham (06:57):
And I
think we see that sort of
story arc happen quite a
lot. We have a somebody
who starts out well
intended, works really
hard, gets successful, of
a degree, and then
converts into this happy
clappy, you know, for the
masses kind of appeal.
And it is shit. It's just
an
Lea Turner (07:16):
ice bar. They
Eddie Whittingham (07:19):
don't,
they haven't forgotten.
They know full well, it's
hard. It's not as
marketable. It's not as
marketable. And the bit
that pisses me off is the
fact that I think they're
treading on people's
heads, rather than
bringing people up. Yeah,
like, that's I think, you
know, early stage
founders are so
vulnerable, they're in a
uniquely vulnerable
position, not obviously a
vulnerable in general
(07:40):
society way, but a
vulnerable position,
because they're looking
for help from people.
They think that can help
them, whether rightly or
wrongly, I was on
accelerate program, and
they sort of wheeled out
some people who, it
transpires, were not nice
people. Once in prison,
one's been done for tax
fraud. And these were
people that at the time,
when I first started, I
(08:01):
was very naive and like,
Oh, these are, these are
gods to me almost, and I
can learn from them. And
I had meetings with both
of those people I've just
mentioned Yeah. And I
think, yeah, you're in a
uniquely vulnerable
position. And so I want
to be the, I don't know,
the the truth teller in
it all.
Lea Turner (08:19):
And I think,
I think you are, and I
and I love to read your
posts. I love to because
you are very straight to
the point, yeah, and I
think we need that
reality check. As you
know, I'm not growing a
startup. I'm I'm working
with a team of
freelancers. I don't want
employees. I don't want a
multi million business.
And there's a lot of
people out there, and I
think, personally, the
(08:40):
vast majority of people,
they're not starting a
business because they
want to be a tycoon on
dragons. They're starting
a business because they
want to be in control of
their future. They want
to be in control of their
income, their hours, that
they work. They want to
have a flexible
lifestyle. They want to
do something that brings
them joy. And they're not
looking to change the
world necessarily, just
(09:00):
changed their world,
yeah, and I, I mean, I
personally, I remember
going to see a
particularly well known
entrepreneur who stood on
stage and told everybody
that some of the key
things that he needs he
does is to take care of
his health. He has a
personal trainer, he has
a therapist. And I
remember thinking, when I
was a I am a solo parent,
(09:21):
and when I first started
my business, all I was
able to afford was the
best like I could just
about make ends meet. I
didn't have the time or
the resources to pay for
a personal trainer. I
certainly didn't have the
time or resources to pay
for a therapist. And I
would imagine when he
started, he didn't have
those things either, and
they've become part of
(09:42):
his lifestyle now, but
they didn't help him to
get very well, not
discounting the
importance of those
things, but the vast
majority of us do not
have those spare hours in
the day or the resources
to fund these lovely
little luxuries. And
actually, the reality
was, I was grafting. I
was waking up in the
morning, at 6am working
for an hour. Of my
business, driving to my
full time job, coming
(10:02):
back, doing the same in
reverse, sleeping six
hours and going again.
And it was like that for
an entire year before I
got and
Eddie Whittingham (10:08):
it's
really interesting, is
it? Because I try and
talk about that truth a
lot, yeah, but people
sometimes interpret that
as being negative, yeah?
And it's like, it's not,
it's not being there's a
difference between being
negative and being a
realist. Like, for most
small business, building
a business is one of the
hardest things you will
ever do, and it requires
a lot of sacrifice, and
that's not hustle porn or
(10:28):
anything like that. It's
just a reality, and it's
far easier to like and
buy into these concepts
that these sort of
superstars tell us. You
know, nothing's worth
your mental health, I can
assure you, as somebody
who definitely sacrificed
my mental health for
three years, it was worth
it, yeah, because I now
have a much easier ride
(10:49):
for the rest of my life.
And it's
Lea Turner (10:51):
not a popular
opinion, and it's
something that does
absolutely go against
grain, because we're not
discounting the
importance of mental
health, but I 100%
sacrificed my sanity. For
a good year, I was
exhausted, I had zero
social life, and you
should be applauded
Eddie Whittingham (11:05):
for it
either. And
Lea Turner (11:07):
I don't use
it as marketing porn to
sell a dream, but it was
my reality. But would I
do would I change it?
Would I do it
differently? No, I
wouldn't excuse me and go
back
Eddie Whittingham (11:19):
to
your original question.
Would I do it again? No,
hence I've done this,
because I actually value
my sanity. If I had to do
it again
Lea Turner (11:25):
at this
point, no, I wouldn't do
it again, because I've
got a child now, and my
mental health and my
health, I value that a
lot more now, because
it's not just me, yeah,
but if I had to go back
to being 26 would I do it
again? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because it got me, it
taught me so many
lessons, and it taught me
about the priorities that
are important to me and
I've I probably wouldn't
(11:45):
be so conscious of
looking after myself now,
if I hadn't gone to that
dark place and and worked
as hard as I did, and
completely burned out and
really
Eddie Whittingham (11:55):
interestingly
as well, like, so I
definitely went through
the whole burnout thing
as well. And people don't
talk enough about like, I
know plenty of people who
work as hard as I did and
never get that bit of
luck. People don't like
to admit they get luck
because it somehow
diminishes their
achievements. I luckily
the other way, yes, I
work damned hard. I got
myself in a position to
(12:16):
benefit from the look,
yeah, I still needed the
lock. Like, yeah, you
know, you make your own
look. I think you make
you give yourself the
opportunity to be in the
position to benefit from
the lock. So for me, it
was market conditions,
things that came around
the corner, like GDPR is
what really boosted our
business. Then it was a
market conditions of the
sale of the business, and
so on and so
Lea Turner (12:36):
on. And yeah,
the opportunities that
were presented to that,
yeah, some people don't
get that look, no. And I
was the same. Like, I
came onto LinkedIn six
months before the
pandemic, and I was
getting a lot of leads,
and I was getting a lot
of traction on my
content, because I was a
little bit different. And
I was different because I
look different, and I
can't discount that.
Like, there were not many
(12:57):
people with hand and neck
tap. There still aren't.
There was not many people
that looked like me on
LinkedIn, and that
absolutely got me
attention. But it wasn't
enough to keep the
attention. Then covid
happened, and my little
humor filled silly posts
about life and reality
and quite vulnerable and
and sometimes insightful.
Maybe it was different,
(13:18):
but covid needs meant
that people needed that,
yeah. And so I rode the
wave, and there was a lot
of people that were
suddenly learning to
network online, and
suddenly needed to be
able to get clients
online. And I went, Oh,
okay, this it happened to
be like, I'm not
suggesting that the
pandemic was a good
thing, but the timing of
(13:39):
it, yeah, for me, because
it annihilated my other
business, and my hand was
forced. I had to have a
go. I had to take the
opportunity when it
presented itself. And I
did, and I rode that wave
and it and it did very
well for me. But if I'd
have just carried on
doing the transcription
work and the pandemic
hadn't happened, I
probably would still be
doing it now, and I would
(14:00):
be, you know, my hands
would be arthritic, and I
would be losing all of my
work to AI. So I
absolutely wouldn't be
sat here. So I 100% agree
there is luck, and you
can't necessarily plan
for that. It just
happens. And you have to
recognize, yeah, you
Eddie Whittingham (14:16):
get
more opportunities. The
harder you work,
generally, the more
opportunities are. But
the more people you need,
yeah, exactly.
Lea Turner (14:21):
And the more
you put yourself out
there to be found by
those opportunities.
That's where social media
comes in so well, right?
Because the more you talk
openly about what you're
doing, what your what
your missions are, your
values are, who you are
as a person, the more
people are aware of you,
and opportunities can
find you. And that's
that's, you know,
important for everybody,
and that's, you know, the
power of a personal brand
online, everyone harps on
(14:41):
about it, but having a
presence where more
people are aware of you
is is beneficial in that
way. So what are the
common things that you
see, whether it's online
or in in the people that
you've worked with, and
obviously there are so
many business owners here
at the ministry, what are
some common things that
you see? People. People
making mistakes with in
their first sort of few
(15:02):
years of business.
Eddie Whittingham (15:05):
I
think it's probably, and
I should add, I've done
some of these so people
are alone. Yeah, I think
it's sometimes trying to
run before you can walk.
I think vanity plays a
bigger influence than
people like to give
credit for. So there's
the obvious stuff, like
vanity metrics on social
media, but even people
who you wouldn't perceive
(15:25):
to be vain. So like a
friend of mine, I'm sure
won't mind me sharing
this story. He we both
want to accelerate
together. We left the
accelerator. I went and
got a deep, dark, dingy
office. Wasn't great. It
cost me 350 quid a month,
which is a lot cheaper
than I charge here. And
(15:45):
meanwhile, he went to get
like, a four man office
in WeWork, and I was
admitting I was turning
over less at the time.
But his premise was
always, well, I need that
to attract like the
staff, because I'm going
to I need the best staff
in my business. And we're
in the city center,
bloody blood, right? But
then two years, or fast
forward, two years, I
built up to a team of,
say, I think probably
(16:05):
about six. By then, the
staff loved being out at
the city center because
they got free parking and
stuff like that. He was
in the city center, and
he still hadn't hired
anyone, wow. So he'd
wasted two years at two
grand a month, yeah, and
for no value. And he
could have been sat at
home, for example, or
whatever, but, and
ultimately, that
contributed to cash flow
and killing the business.
(16:25):
So it but he wasn't
somebody you'd, you'd
necessarily look at as
vain. But he wanted to,
Lea Turner (16:32):
he wanted,
Eddie Whittingham (16:34):
yeah,
exactly. And he wanted to
feel like he was an
entrepreneur, not not be
one. And I think there's
a difference, and
Lea Turner (16:41):
that is a
trap a lot of us,
hundreds and not one.
I've personally fallen
into, actually, and I've
been lucky, but I've
always worked from home
for the I did it before.
It was cool. I did I was
working for home for
years before the pandemic
forced everybody home.
And I haven't. I would
say that I've been quite
lucky to avoid that in in
most respects, but it is
something that I've seen
a lot of, especially
(17:01):
young male entrepreneurs,
I think there's that that
pressure to look the
part, whether it's the
clothes that they wear,
the car that they drive,
a watch that they wear.
There's a certain I want
to project success rather
than actually focus on
creating the success. And
I'd have personal friends
that have said, you know,
(17:22):
they did make that
mistake in the first few
Eddie Whittingham (17:24):
years.
Yeah, oh, yeah. And
there's, like, there's
elements of, like,
acceptable stuff about
being vain, like the
whole, I don't really
want to, like, I had a
cybersecurity business,
and I knew to attract
some of the business that
we're doing if they
thought I was a one man
band, there was
absolutely no way in hell
I was going to get an
opportunity to do a demo,
whatever, so it would be
the royal way. And blah,
blah, blah. And I
(17:45):
remember to play the
game. I remember LinkedIn
in I was like, Oh, how do
I make this, like, seem a
bit more credible?
Because clearly I'm just
a fucking idiot who's
just made this up. So I
messaged the head of
Global cybercrime for the
United Nations on
LinkedIn, wow, guy called
Neil. Really nice guy. I
said, Look, would you I
don't suppose I
appreciate you've never
heard from me. You're
clearly very busy. You've
(18:05):
probably got quite
important shit to do, and
I am just a fucking
idiot. But would you jump
on a webinar one day?
Replied, like, within the
hour, yeah. And then I
did. So in the like,
first month of this
business I've dreamt up,
I was on a video call
with the United Nation
Under global cyber crime,
amazing. And I,
obviously, I kind of
leverage that a lot to my
to open a few doors, but
(18:27):
it's that client kind of,
the don't actually don't
get kind of thing, and
then the power of that
networking. So there's an
element of using you,
using vanity in a
positive way, versus
wasting cash or being
distracted by the wrong
Lea Turner (18:43):
things. And
arguably, you know,
vanity is often equated
with ego, but you
swallowed your ego to
actually just ask, ask
this absolute, you know,
Eddie Whittingham (18:56):
life,
yeah, having a little bit
of us, you don't get,
yeah, right, and that's
Lea Turner (18:59):
something
that I think a lot of us
are afraid to do. We're
like, well, we're nobody.
Why would they respond to
us? We won't even try.
And I saw an amazing talk
by Andrew and Pete from
tomicom. Tomicom their
conference this year,
which is always an
incredible event, but
they were talking about
knocking down a big
Domino, and they had on
their list of of events
that they wanted to speak
(19:20):
at was social media
world, I think in San
Francisco somewhere like
that. And they called it
their big Domino. Now,
you can put up a million
little dominoes, but they
were no, no, I want to go
straight to the big
Domino, because the big
Domino is going to knock
down all of the other
dominoes. So I'm going to
go for the big domino
first, rather than try
and build up all the
little ones to get to the
(19:40):
big one eventually. And
so they found out what
they needed to do, and
they went for it. And
they eventually got the
gig, and they had to jump
through a lot of hoops,
but they got there, and
they were talking about
having the audacity to go
for the big goal from the
off, and that's scary,
but I loved the premise
of it. And I thought
about it, I thought
actually that is. What I
did because got my
(20:01):
Audacity. I was only
using LinkedIn for six
months before I did start
training people how to do
it, but I had the
opportunity. Why wouldn't
I? And it's, it's big,
scary things that we go
for sometimes that we
think, Oh, I'm massively
under qualified. On
Earth. Would they listen
to me? But they can
change your life, and
they can fast forward you
to a point that would
ordinarily take you
(20:22):
years. It's not always
going to go your way, of
course, but it's having
the courage to ask and
getting out of your
comfort zone.
Eddie Whittingham (20:28):
Yeah.
I mean, the business I
sold was in
cybersecurity. I'd been
the police for nine
years. I hadn't done
cybersecurity in that
whatsoever. I then went
into law, which I fucking
hated. I hadn't done
cybersecurity in that
either. I just saw an
opportunity. I was like,
there's loads of stuff
happening in that sector
that's massive, and it's
growing, yeah, and it's
all dull as shit. If I do
something that's not as
shit, I think I can sell
(20:49):
it. And so I just Googled
it, and it sounds stupid,
but that's what I did.
Like it. That's what I
you know, I didn't have
any cyber knowledge. I
learned shit. But
arguably,
Lea Turner (20:58):
that is the
sign of a great
entrepreneur, whether
you're an entrepreneur
yet, or you're going to
be one, if you're the
kind of person that spots
an opportunity and then
has the bollocks to give
it a shot. Yeah,
Eddie Whittingham (21:10):
naivety,
belligerence, they both
played a part,
delusional, but yeah, a
little bit like we're in
an age now where it's
easier than ever to start
a business, and it's even
easier to start a
business in something
you're not even qualified
in, rightly and wrongly,
I should add, yes,
absolutely, but, but if
you see an opportunity,
(21:30):
then, then, yeah, don't
be shy about it.
Lea Turner (21:33):
Sorry for the
interruption, but I've
simply got to tell you
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(21:53):
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and see for yourself. Now
back to our conversation.
The best entrepreneurs I
witness are the people
that will take risks and
(22:16):
not be afraid to fail.
And I definitely see too
many people playing it
safe because they're
worried what other people
will think of them, or
they're worried that it
might not work out. But
I'm I always find that
the other business owners
that I relate to the most
are the people that are
willing to screw up and
they're not embarrassed
(22:37):
to share their screw ups,
because that helps other
people to avoid the same
screw ups, and it also
means that they will get
somewhere quicker,
because they'll keep
trying, keep trying, keep
trying until they get
there. And, you know,
keep brushing yourself
off. Take a lesson from
it. Do better next time.
And I think that's that's
something that I we've
witnessed a lot on we've
witnessed people
succeeding a lot on
(22:57):
social media, but we
don't hear enough about
the people that fail.
They just disappear for a
while, come back with
something new and never
tell you what happened.
Eddie Whittingham (23:04):
And
the sad reality, I think,
is, unfortunately, why,
like, my stuff rarely
goes viral. It hasn't
ever really would. It's
because people often like
the sort of fluffier
stuff, generally not
saying. And it could be,
yeah, I think it's easier
to be inspired by
something fluffy and and
(23:26):
lovely than it is to like
some honest, hard,
gritty, yeah, kind of
reality.
Lea Turner (23:31):
And it's not
Yeah, it's not the social
media highlight reel that
you know quite Yeah. And
that's the whole point of
this podcast. Is we want
to get rid of that idea
that anybody can start a
business, right? Anybody?
Yes, anybody can 12 quid,
but is everybody, no,
meant to start a
business? Now, I've got
(23:52):
some friends that are
100% are not ever going
to be business owners,
and they shouldn't be
business owners. They're
not risk takers. They are
not people who think
outside the box. They
need the structure. They
need the safety of
employment that is just
who they are, and they're
accepting of it, and
they're happy with their
lot, and they're they
don't want to do what I
do. Just the anxiety of
trying to find your own
clients, and that, up and
down emotionally, would
(24:12):
destroy them, and it
destroys me, like, on a
on a weekly basis, I
think about giving it all
up and not not keep
going, and I'd imagine,
during your startup life,
during all of them,
people say to you, how
many times a week do you
want to give up being an
entrepreneur? Like every
day, probably every day.
And even when it starts
getting easier, there are
still points on at least
(24:34):
monthly basis, where you
guys totally up
Eddie Whittingham (24:36):
and
down. And sometimes you
get in so deep, a bit
like the place we're in
now, the workspace,
obviously, I had to do a
whole conversion of a
church, and we got so far
in, yeah, like,
emotionally, financially,
it's like, this really
fucking better work, or I
have wasted that a lot of
money, and there's no and
there's no way out there,
kind of, yeah, you've
just got to keep going
and come to the other
(24:56):
end, when you can finally
open your doors and then
hope Yeah. So it's yeah,
it's not. Down, Jenny,
but, but like most people
listen to this who are
business, they probably
won't change it for the
world, truthfully. And
Lea Turner (25:05):
that's true,
isn't it? Because as sick
as it sounds, it is fun,
yeah, like the variety on
a day to day basis, of
the different things that
you're doing and the new
challenges that present
themselves, even when
you're constantly
fighting fires, there is
an element of of perverse
amusement and fun in it.
Eddie Whittingham (25:22):
I get
asked a lot for good
reason, why am I still
doing stuff? Because I
could not be working
retiring, but how boring
would it be? Yeah, quite
and, like, genuinely, the
thrill for me is the
learning. So there's
probably a reason I had a
SaaS business. I've had
an E commerce but I've
got an E commerce
business. I've got, like,
(25:43):
co founder, I've got this
as, like a location, but
it's because I love
learning, like, I've
never done a renovation
before of certainly not
this scale, but that's
kind of the learning of
it. And now I can go into
another room of people,
yeah, that's exactly it,
and that's the bit I
love. And I think, I
think, I do think
there'll be another kind
of bigger idea
eventually.
Lea Turner (26:03):
Well, not,
not now, not why your
kids are little, probably
not. And it's funny. And
I was talking about this
with one of our other
guests, but I had a guy
who's grown or invested
in an ex to date
businesses, and he came
to me probably two years
ago and said, Let's grow
you a LinkedIn agency.
I'll invest you bring
people on. We'll have
content creators, VAs
(26:25):
running people's accounts
for them. We do all of
that. And I was like,
Yeah, I could do that.
And I could probably exit
it for multiple millions
in a couple of years. And
I went, do you want to do
it? And I genuinely I sat
there and I said, I don't
want to do that. And he
messaged me, commented
one of my posts recently
and said, I'm really
proud of you for sticking
to what you knew was what
(26:46):
you wanted to do, and
I've grown the halt since
then. And you know, he's
already once, first
refused on buying that if
I ever should decide to
sell. And it's lovely to
know that there are
people out there that
believe in me and my
abilities, but that
wasn't what brought me
joy. That wasn't I knew.
That wasn't on the car
for me, I didn't have,
you know, I love what
Carrie Rose has done with
rise at seven. I think
she's a very
inspirational woman to
(27:06):
have done it at such a
young age, whether I'd
have made the same
decisions or done the
same things. You know,
not everybody agrees with
what she does and how she
does it, but what she's
achieved is incredible.
And I sat with her on a
panel recently and
listened to her story,
and one of the things she
said is, you know, if
you're going to be a
great entrepreneur, the
key characteristic you
need is curiosity. And I
(27:26):
said, 100% you do because
it is that learning. It's
that constant thirst for
knowledge to problem
solve, to find solutions,
to find opportunities.
And you don't get any of
those things without
curiosity, about people,
about business, about new
processes, about
technology, all of those
things. That's really
interesting
Eddie Whittingham (27:43):
point,
honestly, because I
think, like so literally,
the day I sold my
business, within a week
of that, I bought a few
crappy mics, a few a
couple of crappy cameras,
not too crappy, but to
basically, like, record a
couple of podcasts, yeah,
almost like my first
delve into that, and then
I learned how to edit
properly, and I use Final
Cut Pro and I edited the
(28:03):
videos because I had the
time to, like, Finally,
put a bit of time into
that creative side of it.
And yeah, it's that, is
that curiosity. It's
like, oh, I want to be
able to just at least
have a baseline
understanding or
knowledge. And then that
really is probably why
I've got content studio
here. If I hadn't done
that, we probably
wouldn't have this here,
because I wouldn't have
had enough even baseline
knowledge to entertain
it. It had been a
completely fanciful idea.
(28:24):
I think it
Lea Turner (28:24):
also makes it
so much easier when you
do start outsourcing.
Because for me, when I
first started with the
LinkedIn training, I
didn't know any I didn't
even, I'd never even run
a zoom call, and I did my
first training session.
It was the first time I'd
ever run a zoom call. Had
no idea what I was doing.
I'd never trained anyone
to do anything, so I was
completely clueless. And
I went, I'm gonna give it
a go. And I gave it a go.
And then I was like,
(28:44):
right? I could do a
webinar, and I didn't
know how to set up
Calendly. I didn't know
how to set up a webinar.
I didn't know how to make
slides. And I got on
Canva, and I was like,
this is bloody great. And
spent an entire night
creating slides on Canva,
going, Oh, my God, this
is so much fun. I'm
really enjoying this. And
it wasn't being on Canva,
I was learning new design
skills, trying things
out, experimenting, going
no, that was terrible,
(29:05):
and it just kept me going
all the time. And that
Curiosity has, and not
just the curiosity, then
the motivation to follow
through with my
curiosity, has taught me
skills, and I learned
email marketing, I
learned sales, I've
learned all sorts of tech
that I never a million
years imagined that I'd
understand. I've learned
about investment of so
much stuff, but now, when
(29:27):
I hire people to do what
I need them to do, I have
a base amount of
knowledge, and I'm like,
I need you to do this,
and I need you to do it
better than I can do it.
Going
Eddie Whittingham (29:35):
back
to that conversation
around mistakes, I think
that is, that is a big
one, where people don't,
they just, they think
they can just delegate
stuff. And you can't just
exclusively delegate. You
have to have a baseline
knowledge of everything
in your business before
you hire somebody. Yeah,
I I think you should hire
people better than you,
and like the
Lea Turner (29:52):
better. How
do you know what's good
unless exactly you've had
a go at it yourself, or,
you know, I hired Alex
Thompson, who has been
on. Podcast who does my
email marketing for me. I
was doing all my own
email marketing before
that, and he looked at
it, and he was like,
Yeah, it's pretty good,
actually, but we can
improve it by doing this,
this and this. And I
went, Oh, yeah, that
would help that, and that
would help that. And then
I learned from how he
(30:13):
improved things, and I
carried on doing some of
it myself, until I got to
the point where I was
like, now I fully want to
outsource it all to you,
Eddie Whittingham (30:21):
yeah?
And to an expert, yeah?
Collaborate, yeah. That
knowledge prior, you'd
have probably hired a
mediocre person, because
you wouldn't know any
better 100% that's the
challenge in it. And I
think
Lea Turner (30:32):
that's
something that I
recommend to everybody,
is do learn to do as
much. And that's part of
the reason we have the
Hulk, right, because the
vast majority of people
at the beginning,
especially if their small
business journey, do not
have the funds to
outsource for all of the
different services they
could possibly need. And
you're not going to have
someone to build you a
landing page and start
your lead magnet and run
digital ads and all of
(30:53):
this. You won't have the
budget for it, but you
can learn a certain
amount of it yourself,
and we give them the
skills to do that, and
then they can have a go
themselves. And of
course, when they're
ready to actually
outsource it, they've got
a trusted expert at their
fingertips that they've
already learned from to
go to. So it's one hand
washes the other, and we
get them to that stage
where they can outsource
and then give them a
(31:14):
great expert to do it to.
And it works so well
because it's so hard to
find the time to learn
all those new skills. But
you don't know who you're
hiring. You could be
buying, God knows how
many courses and learning
terrible techniques. You
have to be so careful
with where you're you're
spending that limited
amount of money at the
beginning. You need to
spend it on people that
you trust, and there are
(31:34):
too many charlatans out
there. And that's
something that you talk
about a lot in your
content, and maybe we can
touch on that right now
is, what is it that you
would advise any small
business owner if they're
thinking about, say,
getting a mentor or a
coach or hiring a service
that they need, what are
some things that have
helped you to ensure that
you're hiring good people
(31:56):
that can be trusted? I
mean, I'm sure you've
made mistakes in in in
hiring and outsourcing?
Yeah, I have as well. But
Eddie Whittingham (32:03):
I
think fundamentally, you
need to see, like, proof
of their work. And I'm
trying to find a way to
verify that as well,
because people can fake
it, or I just wouldn't
take anything on face
value as after that
sounds, because we can
all pretend, yeah, I see
it all the time, just ask
stuff like someone who's
got four times founder in
(32:24):
the headline. That sounds
really impressive, but
all it means is you've
spent 12 pound to
register a business four
times. That's literally
six pounds. That's all it
qualifies you for. Yeah,
company's
Lea Turner (32:36):
house, if
they've got limited
companies, yeah. How many
have been dissolved? How
many have been struck
off?
Eddie Whittingham (32:41):
What
quite for what reason?
And yeah, there's endless
weeks. So it's just like
delving under the hood a
little bit and really
looking who you work
with, get case studies,
try and speak to their
clients.
Lea Turner (32:51):
That's funny.
You should raise that
actually, because I
remember a few years ago,
there was somebody who
was quite a well known
copywriter, and they
famously would say they
and use it as a marketing
tactic. I don't let
potential clients speak
to previous clients. And
I went red flag, yeah,
that's a bit weird. That
seems a very strange
thing to say. I'm very
(33:12):
open, and I'm, you know,
there's hundreds of
recommendations on my
profile, and I quite
openly say you can
contact anyone, anyone
that you see has worked
with me, put my name in,
find people that have
worked with me, have a
conversation with them,
because I'm confident
that nobody is going to
come back and say she
wasn't worth the
investment. And I don't
mind people doing that
ever. And I always say to
(33:33):
people, you know, don't
just go on the social
media content and don't
just go on the results
that they get for
themselves if they can't
replicate the results for
other people. That's the
worst, because they can't
get you results. Just
because they can get it
for themselves doesn't
mean they can
Eddie Whittingham (33:47):
get it
for you. And I see that a
lot on LinkedIn. You
know, they've, they've
managed to get, I don't
know, the classic one of
them is like, I do 10k
months. I can do it for
you too. And it's like,
Yeah, but you're talking
about yourself, yeah.
You're not talking about
Joe sells whatever he
sells. Yeah,
Lea Turner (34:02):
show me that
you can do it for other
people in in the niche
that you specialize in,
or in a variety of
niches. Like I do. I also
one of the other things I
always suggest to try and
verify someone's
expertise. Because it's
so easy to just run a
blog through chat GPT and
ask it to turn into three
social media posts, and
you sound like an expert.
You know what you're
talking about. Tweak a
few of the bits
vocabulary. Now it sounds
(34:23):
like me. I always say
you've got to listen to
them speak, and whether
that's on a stage or on a
podcast or an audio
event, that's where I cut
my teeth, and that's
where I built my
authority, and it's
because I can't just
Google and answer. No one
can
Eddie Whittingham (34:37):
hide
behind when you've got,
you know, that's not good
question. You're gonna
get exposed at it, right?
Yeah, and
Lea Turner (34:43):
there's only
so many times you can
quote from the Bible of
Gary V people aren't
people are gonna know if
you're always repeating
yourself, saying the same
thing, there needs to be
original thought there
that shows that you
really know what you're
talking about, that you
can have an off the cuff
conversation and express
genuine insights. Mm.
From your own perspective
that are unique. The
Eddie Whittingham (35:03):
other
one as well, is not
because I've made this
mistake, is not signed
into those long term
contracts, because,
obviously, that's
sometimes a sales ploy,
and, oh, it's, you know,
you need a commitment,
which is fine. And I get
that. I get that from a
sales perspective. But if
you're a small business
and someone's asking you
to sign up for a grand a
month for 12 months, if
you haven't done your due
diligence, like I haven't
previously, and they're
shit. Read those
(35:23):
contracts, yeah, then
you're in trouble. So, or
you've least locked in
something else, no more
value, yeah. So I think
even just being mindful
as to that, you know, you
can negotiate contracts.
You don't have to take
it, they might turn out
of fine, but then you
also could be a bit
suspicious.
Lea Turner (35:39):
Contracts are
like, and Sam Walkley is
my wonderful contracts
guy. They have been my
saving grace on so many
occasions. I've never got
myself into any kind of
legal recourse,
thankfully. But one of
those reasons is I've
been very careful with
the contracts and the
terms and conditions in
everything that I do. And
I have been burned. I
remember when I released
my first digital course,
(35:59):
I was talked into having
a no questions asked
refund policy, because
that will sell more
courses. And of course,
what happened then was I
had a bunch of people
from a specific location
in the world that that
bought the course, told
their friends bought the
course, all watched it in
like two hours, and then
immediately asked for a
(36:20):
refund. And I was like,
Oh, you haven't actually
implemented anything. And
I was suddenly issuing 10
refunds to people that
literally just binged
everything or potentially
copied it all and then
asked for refund. I was
like, right, and I can't
there's nothing I could
do about it, because I
had a the T's and C's
meant that anybody could
ask for a refund. So I
changed it when I
released my new one to
say we'll be checking
(36:41):
that you've actually done
the work, and you need to
have spent at least this
much time consistently
doing it. And if you're
still not getting results
and you've not made the
cost of the course back,
we will issue and no one
has asked for a refund
since, because it's a
really good course, and
it those lessons have
really taught me that I
need to read the small
print of and I hate doing
Eddie Whittingham (37:01):
it
both sides. It can
benefit to protect you,
but they're also you just
need to make sure they
overly protected with the
people you're buying from
as well, because you can
get yourself and when
Lea Turner (37:12):
you get
burned, make sure that
you make the amendments.
And this has happened to
like people in my team,
where they've had a
terrible client that's
come along and they've
gone, oh my god, this is
awful, and I'm stuck
working with them for
three months. You need to
get out clause. And you
know, they've updated it
say, you know, if you
treat my team members
badly or you're rude to
us, we reserve the right
to terminate you as a
client. And they've
they've gone, oh no, this
(37:32):
awful thing has happened.
I said, Okay, it's
terrible, and it's really
frustrating. But what can
we learn right now? We
update your contract, we
add an extra line in. So
if this happens again,
you've got to get out
clause. And I've done the
same thing with mine.
Every time I got burned,
I take it as a lesson. I
can now improve my
processes, because no one
gets it right first time.
No.
Eddie Whittingham (37:51):
And I
always say, like most
startup is you just need
to be able to survive the
mistakes that you make,
because you're going to
make them, but you can't
make a catastrophic
mistake. You just got to
learn from your series of
mistakes and hopefully
still be alive, and then
that generally means
you'll do All right,
Lea Turner (38:05):
yeah, and
it's nice to know that
there are companies like
your co founder company
that they're trying to
help people for all the
right reasons, and
they're not charging
extortion amounts of
money as mentors and
business coaches, because
there are business
Coaching is probably one
of the most abused
industries. I know some
incredible business
coaches that are
genuinely worth their
(38:26):
weight in gold, and they
are so dedicated to their
craft, and they spend so
much time learning to be
the very best that they
can be, and get
incredible results with
people. But there are,
for every good one,
there's 100 bad ones that
are shilling things on
Facebook, selling you
blueprints that work,
supposedly for everybody,
and it's such a minefield
to find like, if I was
(38:47):
looking for a business
coach, and I'm lucky that
I've, I've never felt the
need to have one, but I
have. I'm surrounded by
wonderful mentors that I
can always ask for input
from, just as a sounding
board, is this a good
idea or not? But if I was
to go for a business
coach, I'd want to pick
somebody that has done
what I want to achieve.
Eddie Whittingham (39:05):
That's
my general advice, people
is like, you know, find
someone in the sector,
or, you know, a few steps
ahead at
Lea Turner (39:12):
you, at least
somebody's got useful
contacts as well. Yeah,
Eddie Whittingham (39:15):
and,
and don't again. Don't be
afraid to be cheeky as
well. Like, you don't
have to pay for a
business coach. You can
get some people will help
you for free again,
though you need to do due
diligence, because they
could be total harsh.
Lea Turner (39:28):
Yeah, and
that's something that
I've I've got fair bit of
business insight from
people that are clients
of mine that have wanted
to repay the favor,
because they've got good
results, and they're
like, You know what I'd
really love to say thank
you if you ever want some
free coaching, and I have
taken advantage of it on
a few occasions and and
it's been wonderful to
do, because I know that
(39:49):
having worked with them,
they are people that I
can trust, who do have
great results and are
nice people to work with,
which has definitely
helped. So Eddie, if you
could go back. To
yourself, maybe at the
beginning of your startup
journey, and in part, a
piece of advice that
would have helped you to
(40:11):
do what you achieved, but
maybe not have taken the
personal toll on it you
took or made things a
little bit easier that
you think would be useful
for the people that are
listening today. What do
you think you'd share?
Eddie Whittingham (40:24):
I
think it would be a bit
of advice I was given
that I sort of listened
to in moments, but not
consistently enough,
which was, follow the
money. And it's such a
simple thing to ask
yourself when you you're
working day to day in
your business, is, is
what you're doing, and
you'll be sat there
listening. Probably doing
some work while you
(40:44):
listen to this is what
you're doing right now,
closest to the money.
Yeah? If it isn't, fuck
it off and do the thing
that's gonna source it,
yeah, do the thing that's
gonna get you the money
and and I think it's
because, as a friend of
mine, she totally
brutally honest with me
at all times, and she'd
see me doing stupid shit,
like, I don't know,
(41:04):
changing the color of
something, I'll reform it
and something when I had,
you know, I'd just done a
demo last week, and I
should have been chasing
them to see if they
wanted to sign up. Yeah,
that does that sound but,
yeah. Just really having
that hyper focus on, on
the money and you know,
probably what? Put it
into perspective, I was
really lucky with the
(41:25):
valuation of my business.
I got, I got 10x of
revenue, which is, which
is amazing, but they
obviously weren't going
to give me the valuation
on any outstanding debt.
And so because I'd been
so busy with the business
and growing it, there's a
lot of invoices that
hadn't then chased for
payment, and they dragged
on and on and on and on
(41:46):
something like were
really old. Like, total
shame on me for not
chasing them. So then
when I sold the business,
each of those invoices
would have been worth 10
times the amount on that
invoice. Oh, ouch.
Obviously I had a very
fast attempt at claiming
a lot of those and get
them in. But it was kind
of quite an A good
example of like, follow
(42:07):
the money. Like, what if
you've done the work, get
the fucking money in the
till? Yeah, don't dick
around with and
Lea Turner (42:12):
we do spend,
we do spend too much time
things like that. And I
think an important part
of that as well is
actually you think you
know where the money is
when you start, but
sometimes that changes.
And I when I started with
the LinkedIn training, I
was like, you know, I'm
gonna I'm gonna do this,
I'm gonna do this, I'm
gonna do this. And
suddenly I was like, I'm
too busy. I'm working my
(42:35):
ass off. I need to
increase my prices as
much as I didn't want to
because I felt deep
imposter syndrome and
fear, and no one's gonna
hire me if I increase my
prices, and I increase
the prices. And really
good result from that.
And people were happy
still to pay for it. And
then I wanted to create
digital course and
digital resources, and I
kept finding where there
was opportunities to make
more money, and doubling
down and doing that,
(42:55):
there's loads of people
that couldn't afford one
to one call, create a
webinar, do 10,000 in a
day. People can't come up
with content content
ideas, great. Create a
resource of tons of
content ideas, 10 grand
in a day. And it was like
I hadn't thought of those
things at the beginning.
They were not there, no
but I listened. I was
actively listening to
what my clients and what
(43:16):
my community wanted, and
then going I could create
that and turning it into
something. And I could
have got very distracted
and just stayed in my
lane. I'm just doing the
LinkedIn training, but I
spotted opportunities for
money. And there's so
often things between the
cracks. You go, oh yeah,
that's an opportunity.
And if it's something
that you can turn around
pretty quickly, do it.
(43:38):
And yet, there was lots
of opportunity for me to
make money with group
coaching and group
programs, or do a year
long group program and
intense, intense one day
VIP experience. And I
didn't want to, and I and
I chose to follow what I
enjoyed doing, not the
money. In that situation,
Eddie Whittingham (43:54):
I only
like the advice build the
business you want,
because we can all get
carried away in chasing
the money, but if you
actually sit down and
look at what do I
actually want to be doing
day in day and reverse,
because you could easily
follow that group
coaching, but then all of
a sudden you'd be maxed
out group coaching,
stressed off your tears,
yeah, probably not the
business you want.
Lea Turner (44:13):
No, I tried
it and went, I don't like
it, and I liked the
people that I was working
with, but I do like the
format that I was
delivering the training
in. I like to be able to
do intensive sessions,
and I didn't want to be
charging 10 grand for a
premium one day VIP
experience, because I was
like, God, who am I to
be? That that's not how I
want to be delivering
things. And it's, it's
finding those
(44:33):
opportunities to make
money, but don't take
every opportunity,
because it's not always
going to suit you. Yeah,
and having the courage,
and obviously it's a
privileged position to be
able to say all those
things, but not doing
things, just because you
can doing things that you
want to do and that make
the money. That's where
the sweet spot is. Thank
you so much for joining
(44:53):
us today, Eddie, and for
providing the beautiful
studio that this whole
podcast has been in.
Sorry that Bronson, my co
host, abandoned us. Is
clearly tired for the
day. It's been a pleasure
chatting to you, and I
hope everyone's got some
really great insights
from it. Thanks a lot.
Thank you. Before you go,
I just need to tell you
about our brilliant
podcast sponsor that
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(45:13):
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