October 7, 2024 • 44 mins
“You need more sales”
Do you always hear that ringing in your head as a business owner?
My guest in this episode, the brilliant Alex Thompson, went through exactly the same thing building his email marketing business.
Alex found that making 2 massive shifts helped him to scale like never before. Outsourcing and saying no to work that didn’t fit with what he wanted. He shares what finally made him shift from doing it all himself. That meant no more work at 4am on the weekend or missing picking his kids up from school.
He also delves into the challenges he has had in finding the right people for his team. Which now includes six writers, and he has doubled his client base by focusing on his strengths.
So, listen up because this is advice that works!
“Saying no has improved my sales goals.” – Alex
You’ll hear about:
00:00 - The Journey to Outsourcing and Saying No
00:44 - An introduction to Alex
02:37 - Why Alex didn't see a future in teaching
06:06 - Alex on selling himself as a copywriter
09:27 - Alex's business crisis
13:17 - Learning how to scale quicker
15:21 - The struggle to let go of your business baby
17:59 - Getting to the point of being able to say no to work
24:31 - Freeing yourself up to strategise with clients
30:46 - Carve out time to work on the business
34:26 - Alex's advice for hiring freelancers
40:58 - Alex's advice to himself when he first started in business
Connect with Alex:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-thompson-copywriter/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/alex_actcopywriting/
ACT Email Marketing - https://www.actcopywriting.co.uk/
Listen to Alex’s podcast Copy Craic - https://shorturl.at/eoW8m
Connect with me:
The HoLT - https://www.the-holt.com/
My website - https://leaturner.co.uk/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/lea-turner/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/leaturnerholt
Join The Holt waiting list - https://www.the-holt.com/waitlist
This podcast is sponsored bySafe Space From The Workplace. You can check out their podcast here - https://shorturl.at/IASSn
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alex Thompson (00:00):
The two
(00:00):
biggest game changers for
me have been having the
confidence to eventually
outsource to a team and
saying no. But I remember
being in this exact
situation and hearing
that advice as well.
They're two of the most
annoying pieces of
advice, so true when you
don't think you're ready
for that, but no one's
ever going to get to
(00:20):
where they want to be
without getting help and
without saying no.
Lea Turner (00:38):
Alex, welcome
to The HoLT Survival
Guide for Small
Businesses. It's
Alex Thompson (00:42):
good to be
here. It's
Lea Turner (00:43):
lovely to see
you now. For clarity,
everyone, Alex is one of
my amazing team members.
He is my email marketer,
so I'm going to know a
fair bit about what
you're talking about
today, but not, not
nearly as much as I'm
hoping that you'll share
with us. So why don't you
tell us a little bit
about who you are and
what your business does?
Alex Thompson (01:00):
Yeah, so
I'm Alex from Newcastle.
People might know from
our accent and well
recently, now run an
email marketing agency.
So think that's probably
one of the things we're
going to talk about
today, is my shift from
kind of a freelancer to
service provider or
around copywriter. Now
I'm just specializing in
email marketing with a
team now as
Lea Turner (01:20):
well. That's
it's amazing, because
you've been doing this
now for five years. Five
Alex Thompson (01:24):
years, I
can never remember,
remember whether it's
five, six or four,
because when I first
started, added a year to
whatever it was on
LinkedIn. So now I can't
remember if I fixed it or
not, so sometimes I got a
count back, but I think
it's five years. And
Lea Turner (01:36):
what were you
doing before you started
copywriting?
Alex Thompson (01:40):
Just
before I was a teaching
assistant, yeah, so I
was, so I was traveling a
lot before that. That's
where my Kelsey, me,
fiance, were traveling
all over Australia and
stuff like that. And then
I come back, and I've
been teaching English in
Beijing for two years.
Wow, come back to the UK.
Just need, needed money,
like, obviously, like,
(02:01):
proper skin. When we got
back from traveling,
like, while living at my
mom and dad, and then
took a job as a teaching
assistant. Ended up
getting a job as an
assistant Senko, I think
my official title was so
I was like, working with
a mixture of kids with
learning difficulties,
and also learning a
(02:21):
mixture of kids who were
like, some were just like
the naughty kids as well
I was working with, like,
all of them in one big
room. So obviously
Lea Turner (02:27):
they're very
relatable for you,
Alex Thompson (02:30):
all
different age ranges, all
different doing different
classes every single it's
just it was complete
mayhem. But yeah,
Lea Turner (02:37):
so what was
it about teaching like,
did you just not see a
future in it? Was it not
making you happy? Like,
what? What was it that
made you go, Oh, do you
know what? I'm gonna
start copywriting and
charging people for it.
Like, I always thought
Alex Thompson (02:51):
I wanted
to be a teacher, until I
started teaching in
China. So I was, like,
dead cocky at school and
through uni. So I've
like, what uni everyone
was having? Like,
crisises in third year
and stuff like that. What
am I gonna do? What I do
with this? What I'm gonna
do? X, I was just dead
cocky. I was like, Yeah,
I know what's gonna
happen. I'm gonna be a
teacher. I'm an advanced
teacher. Then I'm gonna
go assistant head heads.
(03:11):
I just had me whole kind
of life mapped out from
being very young as well.
I always thought I wanted
to be a teacher from when
I was in school at
primary school, and then
I started teaching in
Beijing, and it was
ridiculously easy
compared to what I know
teaching is, like, Yami
sister is technically
still a primary school
teacher. So then I was
(03:32):
like, if this, if I don't
like this, and I'm going
out most nights and doing
like, seven lessons a
week, which I barely had
to prep for I'm gonna,
like, hate it back home.
So I had my crisis then,
and I didn't know what,
and I didn't know what I
was gonna do. But
luckily, at that point,
I'd met Kelsey, and we
were traveling around,
and Kelsey was a project
(03:53):
manager in a marketing
company in Melbourne,
right? So she was, I was
like, I don't know what
I'm gonna do when I get
home. Don't really want
to go home. Don't know
what I'm gonna do. One it
was like trying to,
should we go to Should we
go to South America? Just
trying to, like, prolong
their travelers. I didn't
know what I was going to
do. And then she told us
about copyright, and she
was like, you know,
businesses will pay you
to write for them. And I
never really thought who
did that kind of stuff
before. So started
(04:14):
looking into it. Thought
this is something that my
interest is. And then
very quickly, just
decided that the whole
agency side just wasn't
gonna be for me. I
basically didn't want to
put a mock portfolio
together. I couldn't be
bothered to put a mock
portfolio together to try
and impress some agency
boss. When I thought, why
(04:35):
don't I just like do it
for real people and start
charging them? So that's
what I did. When we got
home from traveling, I
was doing the teaching
job on there, well,
during the day at the
school, and then on the
night time I was studying
my course, and it took us
like six or eight months
or something like that,
finished my copywriting
courses. You don't
actually have to do a
course to be a
copywriter, but
Lea Turner (04:54):
I was gonna
say, like, there are a
lot of people out there
that have never done any
training. Yeah, those
copyrights
Alex Thompson (04:58):
probably
listen to this. To be
like, Oh, I don't need to
do a course and stuff
like that, and I don't
think you need to do a
course. But a lot of
people probably wouldn't
harm to be honest,
because the course of the
same general content you
see, like the course,
like taught us all the
different types of
copyright and it was a
(05:19):
little bit dated. But the
main thing is that you
got paired with a tutor
who gave you feedback on
your work, and that made
it like, so worth it. And
then when I got my
certificate, that was me
kind of because I'd been
to uni and stuff like
that. I guess it was
because of that, and I'd
done a levels and stuff.
I was like, right? I've
got my certificate. My
piece of paper says I can
do this now. Then that
gave me the confidence to
go and do it. So, like I
(05:39):
said, it's not something
everyone needs to do. You
can learn this now.
There's so much good free
content available now
compared to six, seven
years ago, when I started
as well. I would say that
as well at the time,
there wasn't as much as
what there is now in
terms of free content to
just start learning as
well. But what
Lea Turner (05:57):
would you say
then, in terms of the
obviously the certificate
gave you confidence that
that piece of paper made
you feel like I can say
I'm a copywriter now,
yeah, but what would you
say of the training that
you did? What would what
was the most kind of
useful part of that that
made you feel, you know,
qualified and able to
start selling yourself as
(06:18):
a copywriter to people?
Alex Thompson (06:19):
I think it
was the more direct
response side,
definitely, because very
quickly, again, early on,
I realized I wanted to do
the money making direct
response stuff, rather
than people that don't
know what direct source
direct response is,
basically where you write
words that make people
money, instead of content
writing, which is maybe
(06:39):
more informative, like
blogs and white papers,
which is a skill in
itself. I'm not very good
at that sort of stuff,
and that's a skill in
itself. There's
sometimes, like, this
debate of copywriters
versus content writers,
which I don't like as
like, say they're both
skills in their own
right. And then same time
as well, there's other
copywriters who perhaps
specialize in more, like,
tone of voice, brand and
(07:00):
stuff, yeah, so it'll be
more like business to
customer stuff, so
products and things like
that, right? And I just,
I was, I just preferred
the direct response side
of it. So when I was
learning that stuff, the
tutor and I was getting
feedback on it, and that
was the tent, that was
the type of stuff I
tended to get the best
feedback from him on
(07:21):
would
Lea Turner (07:21):
you say that
that's because there's
almost like an immediate
tangible outcome, like
with the email marketing
you do, you get immediate
responses from people or
purchases from people,
and you've almost got
that tangible result.
Whereas with personal
branding, content or
blogs or white papers,
people don't necessarily
take an action, they just
quietly go away with more
information. Or, you
(07:42):
know, after six months,
they might make an
inquiry, and you can't
take the credit for that,
yeah, so that instant
feedback that you get
from, yeah,
Alex Thompson (07:49):
I would
say that as well. And
it's just like, the
thrill of it, like, I
remember doing my first
piece of writing that
someone was like, I
posted this and it made
me money. Yeah,
validation that you get
was good at it, yeah,
because I'm like, because
I'm quite a people
pleaser in general, it's
nice to have that
constant, like, well
done. We got this when he
leads this month, so I
can be like, Okay, I'm
(08:10):
doing a good job. You got
a golden
Lea Turner (08:12):
retriever
right now? I understand
you are a human golden
retriever. So I
personally understand
that because you do my
emails. So for the last,
what, six, six months,
maybe,
Alex Thompson (08:22):
yeah. I
think we've been working
together just over a year
from, like, automations
for you, but in terms of,
like, regular work
experience,
Lea Turner (08:29):
yeah. So Alex
writes my email
newsletters and does all
my email funnels for my
two different businesses
with the the LinkedIn
training and also with
the halt membership
community and now the
vault. And I noticed,
like, we get a lot of
responses to the emails
that go out, even the
ones that aren't designed
to get responses. We get
a lot of positive in
media. And I have to send
them all to you, because
I know you're a golden
retriever. You need that
(08:50):
validation from from
people, but you've,
you've specialized
recently, and you've let
go of things. Now, for a
little bit of context, I
was at, I was delivering
a workshop in the
Seychelles in March, and
Alex was one of the
people at the retreat,
which was when we sort of
cemented our friendship
and ended up, you know, I
was like, we're gonna
work together. We're
gonna up how we're
working together here
Alex Thompson (09:10):
for
itself, actually,
Lea Turner (09:12):
yeah, you've
done quite well. You do
one out of me as well, in
terms get a lot of
clients from it. And, you
know, sign up for Alex.
If you get any business
from this podcast, like,
Oh, my referral fee
please. Yeah, it's one of
those, like you were
having a crisis at that
point. So five years into
your business, you were
having this crisis of
(09:32):
because you were, at that
time, thinking, I want to
employ someone, yeah? And
you were very, very set
that this is was, this
was going to be the time
that you're employing
someone. And you were
also really conflicted
about niching down your
services and saying, I'm
not going to do web copy
anymore, and you still do
web copy for me, but but
only because people have
asked you still do that
(09:52):
for me, but you decided
that that wasn't going to
be part of your business.
Now, obviously you work
within my brand. So it
makes sense to have the
consistency, and it's
probably quite easy for
you, because you know the
brand so well, but, but
you don't take on new
clients for that. That
must have been a really
scary thing for you to
do, to say, I'm not, I'm
good at these other
things, and people are
buying them, but I'm
(10:13):
going to stop, I'm going
to stop selling that.
Yeah, it
Alex Thompson (10:16):
is hard
when you're like, because
five, six years in
business, the the
feelings of being early
on as a startup are still
there. You're not quite
removed from that
anymore. So it started
in, like, the last
November, so just coming
up, like about a year
ago, last November when I
that's when I realized
that I just shouldn't do
(10:36):
everything myself. It
thing was actually, when
I come down here, we'd
had a strategy day to
plan your automations and
stuff. You just said yes
to that rate. And I was
like, Well, happy on the
train home. And it was
part of that. You said,
just because you can do
everything yourself
doesn't mean you should.
And you said that he's
got advice, actually. And
then when I was on the
train home, basically
(10:57):
wrote a big list of all
the jobs that I was doing
myself. That one I wasn't
very good at two, I just
didn't need to be doing
myself either. And just
started outsourcing stuff
there. So the email
clients that I had at the
time outsourced the bulk
of the right into other
freelancers who put in
more effort than I was,
because it was that was
like their new kind of
main client, their new
(11:18):
baby. So they were
spending loads of time.
And the way I find my
freelancers, and the way
I build my team is I pick
freelancers who are,
like, passionate and
experienced in those
subject areas, those
topic areas, so they're
good writers as well. But
so were you covering
Lea Turner (11:36):
like, lots of
different topic areas? So
Alex Thompson (11:38):
I was
writing for like, until
recently as well, like
Maya dramas, uh, product,
which is like Midge mask,
we
Lea Turner (11:45):
get to get a
name drop there, yeah,
Alex Thompson (11:48):
like face
masks, and then fitness
influences, face masks,
face massive, beauty
masks. Okay, so I was
writing, having to write,
like hon, like covid,
also like beauty masks. I
was writing about beauty
target customers, of
like, young girls. So I
was writing Hun and stuff
like that, and I was just
sitting there, like,
what, this is not really
me. This is not me, and I
(12:09):
could do it. But I was
just like, solely, yeah,
that's it. Yeah. Beth
interest called who was,
like, absolutely
unbelievable for that.
Like, it was just like,
it was so perfect. She
was, like, actually
writing for a different
beauty company who sell
the same products, but
with a different target
audience. Hit the target
audience for like 40
plus. So it wasn't really
a conflict. So she knew
(12:29):
everything about the
products, but then also
she could speak in that
target customers voice as
well. So that was just
like absolutely perfect,
and mainly fitness
influencers. So it's
working with a guy called
Paul with Bradley for a
while, until that work
stopped, and then Becky,
who still works with two
my clients now, Alison,
so how
Lea Turner (12:48):
many are in
your team? Now,
Alex Thompson (12:49):
it's the
six, six writers at the
moment, but I've got two
or three quotes out at
minutes that could change
to like eight or nine
pretty soon. And how
Lea Turner (13:00):
quickly has
that happened? Like, so
back in March, you had a
couple of writers, right?
But you've grown it very,
very quickly since, yeah.
So
Alex Thompson (13:08):
I'm on on
Indra, Andrew and Peter
is because of them as
well. So Andrew, Peter,
run atomic on, I'm on the
rebels program, and it's
really good. And my
original goal going on
the rebels program was to
be like, I want to start
doing courses. I want to
start doing programs.
That was how I saw my
future, and outsourcing
(13:29):
the email market and
stuff as much as I could,
obviously, but I was very
focused on doing a course
and things like that. And
it's part of their
kickoff call. They sat
down and they were like,
right? We see this all
the time with people who
get to your level, they
think the way to make
more money is to do
courses, because they
think it looks easy
money. And even though I
know it's not the case,
because I work with a lot
of course creators, I
still thought that was my
(13:49):
next step. And they were
just like, you've got
people waiting to work
with you for email, but
you're just not
entertaining it at the
moment, because you're
doing all of it, too much
of it yourself again. So
despite outsourcing it in
the November, and this is
what I think other people
will probably find when
it comes to outsourcing
it and building a team,
it comes in cycles. So I
sorted it out then and
(14:10):
then, from November
through to March, April,
May, I took on new
clients and started doing
those new clients myself.
So got back into the same
situation, whereas this
time, I've changed that
again, and I've got,
like, say, got the
freelance team working
there. So they were like,
once you get the help in,
so you're not doing all
of these emails anymore,
(14:31):
and you just purely focus
on selling it and the
strat and the kind of the
overall strategy, you're
going to be able to scale
that so much quicker. So
after doing that three
weeks ago, I've got one
new client already
signed. I've got two new
two new clients who have
verbally agreed and was
waiting for them to sign
and pay. So that's like
in terms of retainer,
clients have almost
(14:52):
doubled, well, 50% in the
last three weeks, or
something like that, and
got like five sales calls
next week for it as well.
Lea Turner (14:59):
So you.
You've actually found
that niching down and
only doing the things
that you actually really
enjoy doing and that you
know that you're good at,
has has helped you to to
Alex Thompson (15:09):
buy a lot
more money, basically,
yeah, and I'm not as
stressed because I'm not
doing as much of the
writing anymore. I'm
doing the strategy.
Lea Turner (15:16):
I'm doing
things that drain you.
And that's that's a
really key point in terms
of business, isn't it?
Because one of the
reasons I invited you
here is because I know
that psychologically you
were struggling with the
idea of letting go of
your baby. And I think
that's something that so
many people when you
start a business, you are
in love with that
business. You live, you
eat, sleep, Dream It.
(15:37):
Everything is about your
business, and you pour so
much yourself into it?
Yeah? And the idea of
bringing somebody else in
to help you is
terrifying, yeah, because
you've fought for that
reputation, you've built
a reputation, you've
poured so much of
yourself into it. You've
got that relationship
with your clients, and
you think, oh, but what
(15:57):
if they do something
wrong? What if I lose
that client? Which
Alex Thompson (16:00):
I haven't
lost a client because of
it, but something has
went wrong, so this was
kind of one of the final
straws for us doing
websites. I've always
loved websites and email
market, and they've been
my two main services for
the past, say, two or
three years. That's kind
of the niche I fell into.
But I realized with the
websites I was this was
one of the reasons it was
so hard to let go,
(16:20):
because I always said
myself, I started
charging 700 quid for a
website, up to about 3750
now for a five page
website. So I was like,
this is the grace that
I've wrote down from the
start. Always said, I
want me writing
foreground websites, and
when I get to this point,
I'll be happy. But the
website writing wise for
me, if my writing time
during the week, the
(16:41):
block house, two weeks
like at least worth of
writing time, they were
so draining. And even
though I did enjoy doing
them after it, I was just
finding them so hard
around all of the other
work as well. So I
started outsourcing that,
and a few of them went
really well, to be
honest. And then it come
to one of them, and the
night before, the night
(17:04):
before I was going to
send it to the client, he
just sent us an email.
And he was like, Yeah,
haven't done it.
Couldn't, couldn't get my
head around it. And he
waited till then to tell
you that was it. So I was
like, right, okay, sound.
And he was like, Yeah. He
sent us what he had, and
it was like a few notes
for a home page. Pretty
much it was like, I was
(17:24):
starting from scratch. So
I was like, right? So the
two weeks, luckily, the
client had said I'd get
myself a two week buffer.
So the next two weeks
were me just like,
cleared everything right
in this website, got it
across, and went after I
got it across, I took on
one more website, which
went all right. And then
I was just like, that was
(17:44):
this. I was like, I'm not
outsourcing them. I'm not
doing them anymore. And
even now, John Mackey
does well out of it. Now,
because I send all of my
website, I've given quite
a few. Actually, I've
just sent them to today
as well. But I was it was
so hard, because you've
got people coming to you
who are like, and the
more you say no, the more
(18:05):
people want it as well.
Lea Turner (18:06):
Isn't that
the weirdest thing as
well, when you get to
that point with your
reputation? And it's a
really good point,
actually, because I think
a lot of people don't
even believe that this is
going to happen for them.
Because when you're at
the beginning and you're
just like, I'll take any
work. I will take
anything and everything.
I'll
Alex Thompson (18:19):
say
yesterday, when you're
first getting started,
and it's like, it's
probably hard to listen
to actually, because it's
a really nice place to
be. I've worked really
hard to get here, but I
do acknowledge it is a
nice place to be, of like
knocking back jobs like
that. Sorry
Lea Turner (18:34):
for the
interruption, but I've
simply got to tell you
about the vault. The
Vault is our light
membership to the halt
for just 20 pounds, you
can access more than 85
master classes delivered
inside of the halt, and
we add four or more every
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chat, no community, just
pure value from experts
you know you can trust
with quite literally 10s
of 1000s of pounds worth
(18:55):
of training inside the
vault and no contract or
commitment. Some might
have called it the
Netflix for business
growth. You can sign up
at the-holt.com/vault,
and see for yourself. Now
back to our conversation,
and if people are
listening that are about
to start their business,
or maybe they've they're
in that first year of
their business, they're
absolutely probably
(19:15):
sitting there thinking,
I'm never going to get to
that point. Yeah, like,
Oh my God. What have they
done to get to that
point? And you're
absolutely right. You get
to this point and you go,
Oh my God. I genuinely
never thought I would get
here, but it's all part
of that evolution. And I
think that's one of the
hardest things to accept
as a early stage business
owner, is that you are
(19:36):
going to, personally,
mentally evolves so much
in the next few years.
And I know that our
wonderful studio manager
here, Dan has was saying
at the beginning, is it
normal to cry yourself to
sleep at night when you
first, when you first
start a business and it
and it absolutely is like
I remember going to bed
at like, 1am 2am after
work. Working really,
really late, and I just
(19:57):
couldn't get my head in
the game, and I couldn't
concentrate, and I'm so
distracted all the time,
which partly because I've
got ADHD that I know now,
but I found it so hard to
really believe that I
wasn't going to always be
like this, constantly
feeling like I'm fighting
fires. But there is like,
a point where you go,
hold on a minute. I
actually believe that I
am going to keep getting
(20:18):
clients because I've got
a process for getting
clients now, and I'm
whether that's social
media or word of mouth or
you're running ads or
whatever it might be, I
have a process, and I
know that every time I've
been convinced I won't
get more clients, more
clients have shown up.
Yes, when I have to
believe the facts now and
stop believing, my brain
that's convinced everything's
Alex Thompson (20:39):
going when
it happens, but there's a
switch happens from
hoping something's going
to come in to just
knowing something is and
I remember waking up on a
Monday morning when I
first started my
business, so I was, like,
few months in, or
whatever, getting on
Monday morning and had
not no work on just
nothing to do that week.
And remember thinking,
oh, I'll just, I guess
I'll go for a run or a
walk or something like
(21:00):
that, and getting back
from the walk and
checking my emails, and
there was, like a blog in
there, and I was like,
okay, cool. That's what
I'm doing this week, then
just filling my time with
reading books and doing
more courses and
learning. That's kind of
what is it
Lea Turner (21:12):
kind of like.
And this just popped into
my head. But I feel like
I always, at the
beginning, felt like my
clients were in control
of everything, and my
clients dictated what I
was going to do that
week, and was I, was I
going to get enough
leads? And it was all
kind of in their control.
And then at some point, I
just went, hold on a
minute. I'm in control
here. I can say no to
clients. And when you
(21:32):
actually realize that you
can you're getting enough
clients in that you get
to the point where you
go, Well, I can't to
start with you say yes to
everything, right? And
you end up working
yourself into the ground,
and then realizing, Oh,
this isn't sustainable. I
need to actually start
saying no. And every
business owner I know has
gone through this
process. They get to the
point where saying yes to
everything, to
(21:52):
everything, working
themselves into the
ground. Them realizing
that they didn't start
their business to work
themselves into the
ground, because if they
wanted to do that, they
would have stayed
employed. And then they
go, Oh, hold on a minute.
I can actually say no.
And usually it's because
you have a conversation
with somebody who's been
where you are, and they
go, you can actually say
no. You don't have to
work with everybody that
(22:13):
asks. And you go, Oh, and
it's like a light bulb
goes on, and you start
saying no to the things
you don't want to do and
yes to the things you do.
That brings that
confidence out there, and
then you start realizing
that, hey, I'm in the
driving seat here. Yeah,
that's why I started a
business. Yeah,
Alex Thompson (22:27):
the two
biggest game changers for
me have been having the
confidence to eventually
outsource to a team and
saying no, but there I
remember. I remember
being in this exact
situation and hearing
that advice as well.
They're two of the most
annoying pieces of pieces
of advice when you don't
think you're ready for
(22:47):
that. But no one's ever
going to get to where
they want to be without
getting help and without
saying no, because I've
done it before, where you
say yes to a job that
isn't really a good fit,
the red flags are waving
everywhere. The rate's
pretty rubbish. But you
don't you say yes,
because you don't think
something else is going
(23:08):
to come in and then you
take that job, something
else comes in. That's the
right fit is, is better
pay. But because you said
yes to the other thing,
you now can't do that
thing, and it might need
some more work. Whereas
the more I've said no and
the more I've been clear
on this is what I do.
This is the offer. This
is the process. This is
(23:29):
just the crack in
general. Since I've
shifted to that, all my
sales calls have been
much better, yeah. And
for the first time, the
other day, I actually
heard someone saying, I
don't definitely have
this yet. On home, she's
going to say, yes. She
said, Oh, I'm thinking
about going with X, like
another copywriter,
essentially, but he
doesn't have a team
behind him like you do.
And that was the first
(23:49):
time I'd heard that in
like, a positive note,
almost because I used to
pride myself on I'm a
craftsman. Every email is
every single word, but
you also
Lea Turner (23:58):
get people
that like, Oh no, I don't
want to work with an
agency, like they see
agency as like a dirty
word in marketing in
general, right? No, no, I
don't want to work with
an agency recruiters as
well.
Alex Thompson (24:08):
Whereas
the way I explain it and
the way that I actually
think of this as a
benefit, it's like, look,
you're getting the book.
They are getting the best
of both worlds, because
they're getting me who
they often want to work
with, who is kind of like
the chef at the past,
like only family are
chefs the temperament,
kind of like the chef at
(24:30):
the past. Nothing goes
out that I haven't seen.
So every I read, every
single email that the
Freelancers read, it goes
back to them one or two
times before goes to the
client. So they're
getting what they're
coming to me for, which
is often not boring
emails that are going to
work. Essentially, they
know they're getting that
because they're getting
me involved and I'm
involved in the strategy.
(24:51):
But then they're also
getting someone else who
genuinely loves writing
the emails about their
thing. Yeah, and they're
getting my process behind
it, so they. Literally
their passion and the
time that I'm freeing up
on saying to them, oh, we
should do this. I've got
ideas for this as well.
Whereas when I'm doing
all the writing time for
(25:13):
the extra strategy stuff,
they're getting the three
meals back. And that's
all that's a
Lea Turner (25:17):
really
interesting one, because
I I worked myself into
the ground with with my
first business, I spent
the entire nine years
working myself into the
ground until I started
outsourcing a little bit,
and I was still because
there wasn't much of a
margin. I was still
working myself into the
ground when I started the
and the LinkedIn training
was very much the same,
(25:37):
because it was all on me
and my time. But growing
the whole has been
different because I've
been able to do things
myself, to start with,
bring in a team member to
take over those things,
freeing up my time. And
I'm now at a really
beautiful point where
you're doing the email
marketing. Danielle and
taxi are doing the
community management,
Alex and Laura are doing
the tech, and I am left
(25:57):
to innovate and create
and push things forward
and do things like this
podcast, to build the
brand and to help more
people. But I didn't. I
got to points in running
the halt where I was
feeling like I was in a
slump because I was
running the LinkedIn
training and I was going
away to train people. I
was doing one to ones,
which were very energy
(26:18):
draining, as much as I
loved them, they drained
a lot of my energy on a
day, and I didn't have
the creative space. And I
think that's something
that people don't think
about when you start
outsourcing. Is you as a
business owner, if your
desire is to push the
business forward and to
grow it and to create
more services or more
arms of it, you need that
(26:38):
space to not think of
anything in particular,
but to do you know, like
breathing rooms for your
brain, the
Alex Thompson (26:46):
breathing
rooms, that's a really
good point, and it's
something I had, like, a
few weeks ago, when I
made the decision, right?
Well,
Lea Turner (26:52):
that's what
the Seychelles was for
all of us, wasn't it when
we were there as well,
and
Alex Thompson (26:55):
then more
recently as well, it was
when I was like, Okay, I
want to find some help
for these clients reached
out the Freelancers, they
were all happy. That
afternoon, I wrote my
first sales post on
LinkedIn that I'd written
in probably three months.
You're
Lea Turner (27:11):
the king of
recycling. Yeah,
Alex Thompson (27:14):
been
following us for a year.
You'll start to see them
coming up again. But I
was like, I wrote a sales
post on LinkedIn, and got
a couple of leads from
it, and then had loads of
ideas for videos and
stuff like, I used to do
loads of videos a while
ago, and I had more time
than that. I just all
that sort of stuff had
stopped, and it was a
complete shift of his
(27:35):
right? Okay, freelance
team is in place. This is
all how it's going to be.
It was within moments I
was, I'll write something
on LinkedIn, I'll write
some of my own emails for
God knows how long I've
done. And it was, you
say, it's that, and then
the ideas you have in
that creative space is
what makes you Yeah. So
most of the money
Lea Turner (27:52):
we would we
we were mentioned. We
were at a retreat in the
Seychelles together. So
there was you and three
others. One of them's
Wendy, who's the sponsor
of this podcast, who's
also an incredible
podcaster, and we were
all sitting around in
this stunning villa. We
were super lucky. It's a
beautiful, beautiful
(28:13):
villa, and we're all
sitting around in this
beautiful living room
having this conversation.
When you were saying one
of the things earlier, it
made me remember as like
a flashback. I could
imagine you there, and
you're like, linen, linen
outfit, and we were
sitting there talking
about it, and you were,
I'm sure one of us, if it
wasn't me, it was someone
else that said Yeah, but
you don't have to say yes
to it. And a job had come
in, and you were talking
about wanting to maybe
(28:34):
offload a particular
customer or a couple of
clients that maybe, I
think it was website
writing that you were
doing, maybe for an
agency or something, and
you were like, I am
thinking about maybe not
continuing with this
customer. And then they'd
emailed and canceled.
Alex Thompson (28:48):
Like
causes an absolute
nightmare before that,
when was definitely won't
be watching. Yeah, no, I
checked my phone. I
checked my phone after
I'd said that, and that,
like emailed us to
cancel, and I was just
like, and
Lea Turner (29:01):
it was such a
relief. But I remember us
having those
conversations where you
were thinking about
niching down, and you
were thinking about
bringing either in an
employee or freelancer.
We were we were throwing
around, like the pros and
cons of it all, and you
were still in that I'm
not sure, phase, but that
week that we had a way
where, I mean, we didn't
have to make any
decisions that week. That
was one of the apart from
(29:22):
the beautiful setting,
the fact that we didn't
have to decide what we
had for dinner, where we
were going, how we were
getting there, there was
no everything was just
done. This is the dinner
that you're getting. This
is a place that we're
going. Here's some a few
hours to just chill by
the pool and chat with
each other or hang out.
We were networking. But
it was a, it was a
business retreat that we
(29:43):
went on, and all of the
conversations were pretty
much exclusively around
business, yeah, but it
was, it was a beautiful
space because I
definitely leapt forward.
That was the point where
I went. I'm going to stop
LinkedIn training this
year, and I'm going to
really drive the whole
forward. And I want other
ways to grow the whole
you. You, obviously that
was pivotal in your
business. Busy who was
(30:03):
there as well, and she
was one of the people
speaking like I was, but
we benefited just as
much, and she massively
made an impact. And the
impact that we had, as
beautiful as the
Seychelles, was it wasn't
the beauty of the
location, it was the fact
that we took a week away
from responsibilities in
the day to day running to
think genuinely think
about what we wanted from
(30:25):
our businesses and what
was important to us. And
I don't think any of us
said we want to be rich.
No, no, that wasn't hard
to
Alex Thompson (30:32):
replicate,
because I experienced
like that. You say it's
amazing, it but it's the
only way you can kind of
half come close in in
real life, because it is
real life. Really, it
didn't feel like reality
anything. Yeah, away from
that is like just carving
out that regular time to
work on the business. So
one of my business
coaches, uh, Ford
(30:53):
Henderson. He's called it
was one of the things
he's drilled into me for
the last three, four
years. And I've been good
at it. Sometimes I've
been not so good at it
most of the time is that
regular, blocked out time
in your diary where
you're like, non
negotiable. I am not
doing any client work
during this time. I'm
working on the business,
(31:14):
and that could be so a
lot of work I've been
doing at the minute as
well, which has been a
game changer. And
something I wish I'd done
ages ago is getting all
the processes that I take
for granted out of my
head on the paper so
someone else can follow
it and do it. So that's
what I'm doing now with
the agency. So I can
essentially get someone
new right out to the
agency. I can give them
(31:35):
the process and say, This
is how I onboard of
client, step by step.
This is how I do the
first month's worth of
emails. This is the
regular monthly flow
going forward from there.
It's got everything of
how I write people's PSs
on the bottom of their
emails, how I lay out
their emails, how I
research them, how I do
the planning of your
business, just everything
(31:56):
is inside there so they
can literally follow that
not having worked with me
or done any writing for
me before, and it's stuff
like that, like when I
used to hear processes
and systems, when I used
to be working, I think,
oh, and I'm the same,
even me and I used to
think, like, what does
that even mean? But then
actually getting it all
out of your head, I'm
like, Oh, I do actually
have a process that I
follow here. I do
(32:16):
actually have a system.
And that's
Lea Turner (32:17):
really good
advice for anybody that's
however far into your
business, if you haven't
done this, and especially
if you're right at the
beginning of starting
your business, do it from
the beginning. Document
how you do everything,
whether it's loom videos
screen, like showing your
screen of how you do
everything, yeah. Like
have everything
Alex Thompson (32:36):
attend
process to the pretend
first person you're going
to start outsourcing to
Yeah, right, in that kind
of way, because then that
will help you explain a
problem. And when
Lea Turner (32:46):
it gets to
the point that you're
ready to extract yourself
from the day to day
running of the business,
you'd be able to put in a
manager to be you,
because everything is
documented, yeah, and
they're walking into, I
mean, it would be easy to
just slot into your
shoes, wouldn't it? I
mean, not saying that
you're not completely
lower baseball and
everything, but, but it
does help. Yeah, it would
give you that comfort.
(33:07):
Or, you know, maybe one
of your team would become
more senior, and you can
say, Okay, well, you're
going to do what I was
doing. I'm going to trust
you to oversee it and
remove yourself from the
business even further, or
just put yourself into
the recruitment and, you
know, innovation role
that your marketing role
to keep you're just now
bringing in clients, and
everybody else is
Alex Thompson (33:27):
doing it
helps you stick to your
own rules as well. So
sometimes I'll well, if I
was, like, onboarding
clients and I maybe knew
a bit about them, or I
knew a bit about the
industry, or something
like that, I would skip
some steps, and I'd get,
like, two months in and
be like, Well, I've run
out of ideas to talk
about what we're going to
do now. And I thought,
God, I haven't even had a
proper kickoff call with
(33:47):
them, because I just knew
enough to get started
very quickly. Yeah. So by
writing all your
processes down, it's
like, this is the ideal
roadmap of how to
properly onboard a client
and how to get miles
ahead and how to properly
run it as well. So
sometimes, if a client
doesn't want it to do
something, if they want
you to change your
process, or something
like that, having a
process of, no, this is
(34:08):
the best way to do it. It
helps you on sales calls
so you can because you
can explain the process
to people, because
service provider you
selling a process at the
end of the day. But then
it saves you from
yourself. If some clients
just want it to kind of
change things, you can
come back to it and be
like, No, this is the way
I do it, and this is why,
so you can save yourself
from that as well.
Lea Turner (34:26):
What would
you say in terms of like,
hiring the freelancers?
What would your best
piece of advice be?
Because you waited quite
objectively. You waited
quite long. Yeah, quite
long. I bought in an
accountant almost
immediately, yeah, then
it was a VA for me, Luke.
And then my tech team
(34:48):
that, you know, they're
freelance as well. I
don't only pay them for
the time that they do.
And now I've got a team
of, I don't even know
now, what 10 probably
across the business.
Everyone's freelance. No,
no one's I'm only
employed. Yeah, he's
employed. I'm a but it
When did you know you
were ready for a
freelancer? And maybe,
what advice have you got
around? Because you've
(35:08):
made bad hires, right in
terms of freelancers?
Yeah, what's been the
difference in finding the
good ones over the bad
ones? Yeah,
Alex Thompson (35:15):
guess
what? It's hard for us,
not like, it's hard to
know how what to take
from that one experience
with that lab, because
he'd actually like done a
good job before that. I
think it was maybe just
too much too soon. And I
guess from that is like,
the way I kind of run my
freelance team is because
I can remember what it
was like to be them not
so long ago. Yeah, I'll
(35:35):
try and be the freelance
boss, even though I'm not
their boss, their kind of
freelance manager, I
guess that I wanted when
I was a freelancer as
well. So I'll never ask
them to do anything at
the last minute unless
it's, like, ridiculously
rare. So like, a couple
of weeks ago, asked ollie
to do something the next
day, but that was, like,
a very rare thing,
(35:56):
because it's rare, they
probably didn't say yeah,
and I'll never ask them
to do I pay them upfront
before the work starts.
Ask them how much they
won't pay from it. I
never fight them back on
their rates, just simple
things like that. I don't
nitpick it stupid
feedback like but I also
give them feedback as
well. When I was writing,
it annoyed me if I didn't
(36:16):
get good quality feedback
from people, and it
couldn't help as grow as
a writer. So recently,
I've had to kind of say
it, some of them, look,
I've just been fixing
stuff, and I've not been
giving you the feedback,
which probably isn't
ideal for you, because
you'll see an email going
out with loads of
changes, and you're
probably thinking, Well,
why has he changed that?
And why has he changed
this? Because I'm not
telling them they can't
fix it for next time. So
(36:36):
I'd say them, look, it's
probably going to be a
bit rubbish in the meat
in the short term,
because you're going to
get more feedback from
us, but hopefully makes
them a better writer, and
helps them more in the
long term as
Lea Turner (36:46):
well. And
that's useful, I think,
for anybody who's trying
to grow their freelance
team, because I do this
with Luke and Danielle
and and everyone, I'm
really direct with the
feedback that I give, but
kind Yeah, and I'm
noticing a theme in, you
know, the other people
that we've spoken to on
this podcast is actually
being the leader that you
would want to have, and
(37:07):
it's something that I've
always kept in mind when
growing the halt that
I'm, you know,
objectively, the leader
of the community. It's my
community that I started.
It's Our Community, but I
started it, I created
what I would want from
that. And Danielle said
the exact same thing. She
has become the team
(37:27):
leader of her team that
she knows she would want.
And I know Luke would say
the same thing as well.
It's having that self
awareness of saying,
Would I like to be
treated this way? And if
the answer is no, you
shouldn't be doing that
for your team, and I
think that's something
that employed people
really that that often I
hear that the stories of
(37:48):
these terrible leaders,
are they not saying to
them, Well, how would I
feel if I was treated
that way? Yeah, and
because the majority of
the time I would, I would
feel like shit. I don't
want, I don't want to be
treated that way. You'll
often
Alex Thompson (37:58):
treat
yourself worse than like
the way that so the way,
the way that I track
myself as a technical
employee of my business,
I would never no time on
don't pay myself enough.
Ollie, get up at four
o'clock on a Sunday
morning to work for five
hours to get this out on
a Monday. Never do, but
that's what I used to do.
(38:19):
I used to get up at four
or five in the morning
Saturday and Sunday
mornings to do extra work
day weekend, I used to
work late. I would like
have to text Kelsey, my
partner, and say, I'm
really sorry at the last
minute, I can't go and
get off you from school.
Can you go and get him
and stuff like that?
Whereas now I'm trying to
treat me as one of the
Freelancers, almost. But
even even now, that's
(38:40):
still part of my
business, which I'm still
doing myself. Now, it
comes in phases with
outsourcing. It's like
you outsource a certain
amount, and then you need
to almost get comfortable
with that and make sure
that's working. But it's
still that kind of that
money mindset of, okay, I
can still pay myself, and
there's still a little
bit of extra money coming
into the business, even
(39:00):
though I'm paying for
these people. And then
after a few months, it'd
be like, Okay, right?
I've still got the money
I want, and I've got
those people in place.
What else can I outsource
now? And that's at the
stage I'm at now. I'm
still probably designing.
I've got my sister
working for us as a VA.
She's helping us design a
lot of the emails, but
I'm still doing a lot of
them as well. So that's
the next day. I'm like,
(39:21):
right? Actually make real
to myself that I don't
design any of the emails
by myself. It needs to be
someone else helping with
us. So if people are
feeling like that now, of
like, I don't know where
to start, it's kind of
just like writing a big
list down of the things
that, yeah, you're not
very good at. You don't
enjoy doing
Lea Turner (39:36):
go out of it
as well. Like, does it
because we all think that
we have to do these
things ourselves. But
actually, there are a lot
of things that someone
else could do just as
well as we could, if not
better. And that's the
point I got to with my
businesses. I was like, I
want to learn how to do
this myself. I'm
terrible, like that, good
or bad, depending on your
viewpoint. I want to
learn to do these things
(39:56):
myself. Yeah, and I did
it with my email
marketing. I was doing it
myself. I was like, I
want to learn how to do
this myself, and I
learned a lot from when
we first worked together.
And then I was like,
okay, but I'm, I'm
adequate at this, and
it's getting results, but
I now I'm ready to hire
somebody who does it
better than I am. I
Alex Thompson (40:13):
did a
launch for you. Then you
Yeah, you kept saying,
Oh, can you help us with
the whole emails? And
because I was so busy, I
just didn't follow up
with it in time. And then
I was on the then I was
on the email list and got
started getting this
launch. And I was like,
this is one of my
launches. And I was like,
Oh, she just just knows
how to do it. Now,
Lea Turner (40:30):
I learned too
much, because we were
very collaborative when
we were working together.
Like I wasn't just do
this for me. I wanted to
understand why you were
doing it that way, and I
was fascinated by that.
But that's a key thing
about being a successful
business owner or
entrepreneur. You've got
to be curious. So
thinking back to you if
(40:52):
you were having a
conversation, because
we're going to wrap this
up now, otherwise we're
going to run massively
over we'll never put it
all in. But if you were
having a conversation
with Alex Thompson from
one year into his
business. Yeah, so you
were in that first year
space. You've done 12
months. You've learned a
few lessons now. Now
(41:12):
you're having a
conversation with him.
What would be some advice
that you would give? Or
what would you say to
maybe speed up getting to
where you are now, or
convince them that he was
going to get there
successfully. Yeah,
Alex Thompson (41:26):
I think
probably three, probably
three years in. Because I
think for something like
a skill, like a
copywriter, one year, I
would just, I would say
to us, like, keep getting
feedback from writers who
are better, better than,
yeah. I wish I'd done
that sooner. Yeah, to
like, really learn,
really learn your craft.
So I would say that as
well as as good as it is
(41:47):
to, like, grow your
business and find more
clients and stuff like
that, you also need to be
good at what you do as
well. So one year in, I
would just say, keep
knuckling down. Learn
from people are better
than you. Three years in,
I would just give myself
a shake and be like, let
go. And
Lea Turner (42:00):
that's what
we talked about in the
stage shows, wasn't it?
It's like you are ready
now to detach yourself
from doing everything.
Yeah, and you suddenly,
in the last six months,
things are properly
catapulted.
Alex Thompson (42:12):
In the
weeks that I made the
decision I've changed my
business both times. In
three days, I just sat
down and went, right,
okay, I'm not doing this,
this and this. Who's
going to be good for
that? Them, them and
them, send a message, get
them on a call. This is
how it works. What's your
rate, right? Okay, you're
starting next month. Was
three days when I was
working with one of my
coaches, and last
November, that's what I
(42:33):
did with him. Changed my
business in three days,
and then working with
Andrew and Pete in the
summer, they were like,
This is what you should
do. I said, I'm on your
program. I'm paying you
to tell us what to do.
Okay, then change it
again. So, yeah, make a
plan and just go for it.
Lea Turner (42:45):
I really love
that advice. Alex, thank
you for everything that
you do for my business,
and thank you for coming
all the way over to
Manchester to film this.
It's been a pleasure, and
this one has once again,
been incredibly well
behaved. And go and enjoy
your six. Six. Scores.
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need to tell you about
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The two
(00:00):
biggest game changers for
me have been having the
confidence to eventually
outsource to a team and
saying no. But I remember
being in this exact
situation and hearing
that advice as well.
They're two of the most
annoying pieces of
advice, so true when you
don't think you're ready
for that, but no one's
ever going to get to
(00:20):
where they want to be
without getting help and
without saying no.
Lea Turner (00:38):
Alex, welcome
to The HoLT Survival
Guide for Small
Businesses. It's
Alex Thompson (00:42):
good to be
here. It's
Lea Turner (00:43):
lovely to see
you now. For clarity,
everyone, Alex is one of
my amazing team members.
He is my email marketer,
so I'm going to know a
fair bit about what
you're talking about
today, but not, not
nearly as much as I'm
hoping that you'll share
with us. So why don't you
tell us a little bit
about who you are and
what your business does?
Alex Thompson (01:00):
Yeah, so
I'm Alex from Newcastle.
People might know from
our accent and well
recently, now run an
email marketing agency.
So think that's probably
one of the things we're
going to talk about
today, is my shift from
kind of a freelancer to
service provider or
around copywriter. Now
I'm just specializing in
email marketing with a
team now as
Lea Turner (01:20):
well. That's
it's amazing, because
you've been doing this
now for five years. Five
Alex Thompson (01:24):
years, I
can never remember,
remember whether it's
five, six or four,
because when I first
started, added a year to
whatever it was on
LinkedIn. So now I can't
remember if I fixed it or
not, so sometimes I got a
count back, but I think
it's five years. And
Lea Turner (01:36):
what were you
doing before you started
copywriting?
Alex Thompson (01:40):
Just
before I was a teaching
assistant, yeah, so I
was, so I was traveling a
lot before that. That's
where my Kelsey, me,
fiance, were traveling
all over Australia and
stuff like that. And then
I come back, and I've
been teaching English in
Beijing for two years.
Wow, come back to the UK.
Just need, needed money,
like, obviously, like,
(02:01):
proper skin. When we got
back from traveling,
like, while living at my
mom and dad, and then
took a job as a teaching
assistant. Ended up
getting a job as an
assistant Senko, I think
my official title was so
I was like, working with
a mixture of kids with
learning difficulties,
and also learning a
(02:21):
mixture of kids who were
like, some were just like
the naughty kids as well
I was working with, like,
all of them in one big
room. So obviously
Lea Turner (02:27):
they're very
relatable for you,
Alex Thompson (02:30):
all
different age ranges, all
different doing different
classes every single it's
just it was complete
mayhem. But yeah,
Lea Turner (02:37):
so what was
it about teaching like,
did you just not see a
future in it? Was it not
making you happy? Like,
what? What was it that
made you go, Oh, do you
know what? I'm gonna
start copywriting and
charging people for it.
Like, I always thought
Alex Thompson (02:51):
I wanted
to be a teacher, until I
started teaching in
China. So I was, like,
dead cocky at school and
through uni. So I've
like, what uni everyone
was having? Like,
crisises in third year
and stuff like that. What
am I gonna do? What I do
with this? What I'm gonna
do? X, I was just dead
cocky. I was like, Yeah,
I know what's gonna
happen. I'm gonna be a
teacher. I'm an advanced
teacher. Then I'm gonna
go assistant head heads.
(03:11):
I just had me whole kind
of life mapped out from
being very young as well.
I always thought I wanted
to be a teacher from when
I was in school at
primary school, and then
I started teaching in
Beijing, and it was
ridiculously easy
compared to what I know
teaching is, like, Yami
sister is technically
still a primary school
teacher. So then I was
(03:32):
like, if this, if I don't
like this, and I'm going
out most nights and doing
like, seven lessons a
week, which I barely had
to prep for I'm gonna,
like, hate it back home.
So I had my crisis then,
and I didn't know what,
and I didn't know what I
was gonna do. But
luckily, at that point,
I'd met Kelsey, and we
were traveling around,
and Kelsey was a project
(03:53):
manager in a marketing
company in Melbourne,
right? So she was, I was
like, I don't know what
I'm gonna do when I get
home. Don't really want
to go home. Don't know
what I'm gonna do. One it
was like trying to,
should we go to Should we
go to South America? Just
trying to, like, prolong
their travelers. I didn't
know what I was going to
do. And then she told us
about copyright, and she
was like, you know,
businesses will pay you
to write for them. And I
never really thought who
did that kind of stuff
before. So started
(04:14):
looking into it. Thought
this is something that my
interest is. And then
very quickly, just
decided that the whole
agency side just wasn't
gonna be for me. I
basically didn't want to
put a mock portfolio
together. I couldn't be
bothered to put a mock
portfolio together to try
and impress some agency
boss. When I thought, why
(04:35):
don't I just like do it
for real people and start
charging them? So that's
what I did. When we got
home from traveling, I
was doing the teaching
job on there, well,
during the day at the
school, and then on the
night time I was studying
my course, and it took us
like six or eight months
or something like that,
finished my copywriting
courses. You don't
actually have to do a
course to be a
copywriter, but
Lea Turner (04:54):
I was gonna
say, like, there are a
lot of people out there
that have never done any
training. Yeah, those
copyrights
Alex Thompson (04:58):
probably
listen to this. To be
like, Oh, I don't need to
do a course and stuff
like that, and I don't
think you need to do a
course. But a lot of
people probably wouldn't
harm to be honest,
because the course of the
same general content you
see, like the course,
like taught us all the
different types of
copyright and it was a
(05:19):
little bit dated. But the
main thing is that you
got paired with a tutor
who gave you feedback on
your work, and that made
it like, so worth it. And
then when I got my
certificate, that was me
kind of because I'd been
to uni and stuff like
that. I guess it was
because of that, and I'd
done a levels and stuff.
I was like, right? I've
got my certificate. My
piece of paper says I can
do this now. Then that
gave me the confidence to
go and do it. So, like I
(05:39):
said, it's not something
everyone needs to do. You
can learn this now.
There's so much good free
content available now
compared to six, seven
years ago, when I started
as well. I would say that
as well at the time,
there wasn't as much as
what there is now in
terms of free content to
just start learning as
well. But what
Lea Turner (05:57):
would you say
then, in terms of the
obviously the certificate
gave you confidence that
that piece of paper made
you feel like I can say
I'm a copywriter now,
yeah, but what would you
say of the training that
you did? What would what
was the most kind of
useful part of that that
made you feel, you know,
qualified and able to
start selling yourself as
(06:18):
a copywriter to people?
Alex Thompson (06:19):
I think it
was the more direct
response side,
definitely, because very
quickly, again, early on,
I realized I wanted to do
the money making direct
response stuff, rather
than people that don't
know what direct source
direct response is,
basically where you write
words that make people
money, instead of content
writing, which is maybe
(06:39):
more informative, like
blogs and white papers,
which is a skill in
itself. I'm not very good
at that sort of stuff,
and that's a skill in
itself. There's
sometimes, like, this
debate of copywriters
versus content writers,
which I don't like as
like, say they're both
skills in their own
right. And then same time
as well, there's other
copywriters who perhaps
specialize in more, like,
tone of voice, brand and
(07:00):
stuff, yeah, so it'll be
more like business to
customer stuff, so
products and things like
that, right? And I just,
I was, I just preferred
the direct response side
of it. So when I was
learning that stuff, the
tutor and I was getting
feedback on it, and that
was the tent, that was
the type of stuff I
tended to get the best
feedback from him on
(07:21):
would
Lea Turner (07:21):
you say that
that's because there's
almost like an immediate
tangible outcome, like
with the email marketing
you do, you get immediate
responses from people or
purchases from people,
and you've almost got
that tangible result.
Whereas with personal
branding, content or
blogs or white papers,
people don't necessarily
take an action, they just
quietly go away with more
information. Or, you
(07:42):
know, after six months,
they might make an
inquiry, and you can't
take the credit for that,
yeah, so that instant
feedback that you get
from, yeah,
Alex Thompson (07:49):
I would
say that as well. And
it's just like, the
thrill of it, like, I
remember doing my first
piece of writing that
someone was like, I
posted this and it made
me money. Yeah,
validation that you get
was good at it, yeah,
because I'm like, because
I'm quite a people
pleaser in general, it's
nice to have that
constant, like, well
done. We got this when he
leads this month, so I
can be like, Okay, I'm
(08:10):
doing a good job. You got
a golden
Lea Turner (08:12):
retriever
right now? I understand
you are a human golden
retriever. So I
personally understand
that because you do my
emails. So for the last,
what, six, six months,
maybe,
Alex Thompson (08:22):
yeah. I
think we've been working
together just over a year
from, like, automations
for you, but in terms of,
like, regular work
experience,
Lea Turner (08:29):
yeah. So Alex
writes my email
newsletters and does all
my email funnels for my
two different businesses
with the the LinkedIn
training and also with
the halt membership
community and now the
vault. And I noticed,
like, we get a lot of
responses to the emails
that go out, even the
ones that aren't designed
to get responses. We get
a lot of positive in
media. And I have to send
them all to you, because
I know you're a golden
retriever. You need that
(08:50):
validation from from
people, but you've,
you've specialized
recently, and you've let
go of things. Now, for a
little bit of context, I
was at, I was delivering
a workshop in the
Seychelles in March, and
Alex was one of the
people at the retreat,
which was when we sort of
cemented our friendship
and ended up, you know, I
was like, we're gonna
work together. We're
gonna up how we're
working together here
Alex Thompson (09:10):
for
itself, actually,
Lea Turner (09:12):
yeah, you've
done quite well. You do
one out of me as well, in
terms get a lot of
clients from it. And, you
know, sign up for Alex.
If you get any business
from this podcast, like,
Oh, my referral fee
please. Yeah, it's one of
those, like you were
having a crisis at that
point. So five years into
your business, you were
having this crisis of
(09:32):
because you were, at that
time, thinking, I want to
employ someone, yeah? And
you were very, very set
that this is was, this
was going to be the time
that you're employing
someone. And you were
also really conflicted
about niching down your
services and saying, I'm
not going to do web copy
anymore, and you still do
web copy for me, but but
only because people have
asked you still do that
(09:52):
for me, but you decided
that that wasn't going to
be part of your business.
Now, obviously you work
within my brand. So it
makes sense to have the
consistency, and it's
probably quite easy for
you, because you know the
brand so well, but, but
you don't take on new
clients for that. That
must have been a really
scary thing for you to
do, to say, I'm not, I'm
good at these other
things, and people are
buying them, but I'm
(10:13):
going to stop, I'm going
to stop selling that.
Yeah, it
Alex Thompson (10:16):
is hard
when you're like, because
five, six years in
business, the the
feelings of being early
on as a startup are still
there. You're not quite
removed from that
anymore. So it started
in, like, the last
November, so just coming
up, like about a year
ago, last November when I
that's when I realized
that I just shouldn't do
(10:36):
everything myself. It
thing was actually, when
I come down here, we'd
had a strategy day to
plan your automations and
stuff. You just said yes
to that rate. And I was
like, Well, happy on the
train home. And it was
part of that. You said,
just because you can do
everything yourself
doesn't mean you should.
And you said that he's
got advice, actually. And
then when I was on the
train home, basically
(10:57):
wrote a big list of all
the jobs that I was doing
myself. That one I wasn't
very good at two, I just
didn't need to be doing
myself either. And just
started outsourcing stuff
there. So the email
clients that I had at the
time outsourced the bulk
of the right into other
freelancers who put in
more effort than I was,
because it was that was
like their new kind of
main client, their new
(11:18):
baby. So they were
spending loads of time.
And the way I find my
freelancers, and the way
I build my team is I pick
freelancers who are,
like, passionate and
experienced in those
subject areas, those
topic areas, so they're
good writers as well. But
so were you covering
Lea Turner (11:36):
like, lots of
different topic areas? So
Alex Thompson (11:38):
I was
writing for like, until
recently as well, like
Maya dramas, uh, product,
which is like Midge mask,
we
Lea Turner (11:45):
get to get a
name drop there, yeah,
Alex Thompson (11:48):
like face
masks, and then fitness
influences, face masks,
face massive, beauty
masks. Okay, so I was
writing, having to write,
like hon, like covid,
also like beauty masks. I
was writing about beauty
target customers, of
like, young girls. So I
was writing Hun and stuff
like that, and I was just
sitting there, like,
what, this is not really
me. This is not me, and I
(12:09):
could do it. But I was
just like, solely, yeah,
that's it. Yeah. Beth
interest called who was,
like, absolutely
unbelievable for that.
Like, it was just like,
it was so perfect. She
was, like, actually
writing for a different
beauty company who sell
the same products, but
with a different target
audience. Hit the target
audience for like 40
plus. So it wasn't really
a conflict. So she knew
(12:29):
everything about the
products, but then also
she could speak in that
target customers voice as
well. So that was just
like absolutely perfect,
and mainly fitness
influencers. So it's
working with a guy called
Paul with Bradley for a
while, until that work
stopped, and then Becky,
who still works with two
my clients now, Alison,
so how
Lea Turner (12:48):
many are in
your team? Now,
Alex Thompson (12:49):
it's the
six, six writers at the
moment, but I've got two
or three quotes out at
minutes that could change
to like eight or nine
pretty soon. And how
Lea Turner (13:00):
quickly has
that happened? Like, so
back in March, you had a
couple of writers, right?
But you've grown it very,
very quickly since, yeah.
So
Alex Thompson (13:08):
I'm on on
Indra, Andrew and Peter
is because of them as
well. So Andrew, Peter,
run atomic on, I'm on the
rebels program, and it's
really good. And my
original goal going on
the rebels program was to
be like, I want to start
doing courses. I want to
start doing programs.
That was how I saw my
future, and outsourcing
(13:29):
the email market and
stuff as much as I could,
obviously, but I was very
focused on doing a course
and things like that. And
it's part of their
kickoff call. They sat
down and they were like,
right? We see this all
the time with people who
get to your level, they
think the way to make
more money is to do
courses, because they
think it looks easy
money. And even though I
know it's not the case,
because I work with a lot
of course creators, I
still thought that was my
(13:49):
next step. And they were
just like, you've got
people waiting to work
with you for email, but
you're just not
entertaining it at the
moment, because you're
doing all of it, too much
of it yourself again. So
despite outsourcing it in
the November, and this is
what I think other people
will probably find when
it comes to outsourcing
it and building a team,
it comes in cycles. So I
sorted it out then and
(14:10):
then, from November
through to March, April,
May, I took on new
clients and started doing
those new clients myself.
So got back into the same
situation, whereas this
time, I've changed that
again, and I've got,
like, say, got the
freelance team working
there. So they were like,
once you get the help in,
so you're not doing all
of these emails anymore,
(14:31):
and you just purely focus
on selling it and the
strat and the kind of the
overall strategy, you're
going to be able to scale
that so much quicker. So
after doing that three
weeks ago, I've got one
new client already
signed. I've got two new
two new clients who have
verbally agreed and was
waiting for them to sign
and pay. So that's like
in terms of retainer,
clients have almost
(14:52):
doubled, well, 50% in the
last three weeks, or
something like that, and
got like five sales calls
next week for it as well.
Lea Turner (14:59):
So you.
You've actually found
that niching down and
only doing the things
that you actually really
enjoy doing and that you
know that you're good at,
has has helped you to to
Alex Thompson (15:09):
buy a lot
more money, basically,
yeah, and I'm not as
stressed because I'm not
doing as much of the
writing anymore. I'm
doing the strategy.
Lea Turner (15:16):
I'm doing
things that drain you.
And that's that's a
really key point in terms
of business, isn't it?
Because one of the
reasons I invited you
here is because I know
that psychologically you
were struggling with the
idea of letting go of
your baby. And I think
that's something that so
many people when you
start a business, you are
in love with that
business. You live, you
eat, sleep, Dream It.
(15:37):
Everything is about your
business, and you pour so
much yourself into it?
Yeah? And the idea of
bringing somebody else in
to help you is
terrifying, yeah, because
you've fought for that
reputation, you've built
a reputation, you've
poured so much of
yourself into it. You've
got that relationship
with your clients, and
you think, oh, but what
(15:57):
if they do something
wrong? What if I lose
that client? Which
Alex Thompson (16:00):
I haven't
lost a client because of
it, but something has
went wrong, so this was
kind of one of the final
straws for us doing
websites. I've always
loved websites and email
market, and they've been
my two main services for
the past, say, two or
three years. That's kind
of the niche I fell into.
But I realized with the
websites I was this was
one of the reasons it was
so hard to let go,
(16:20):
because I always said
myself, I started
charging 700 quid for a
website, up to about 3750
now for a five page
website. So I was like,
this is the grace that
I've wrote down from the
start. Always said, I
want me writing
foreground websites, and
when I get to this point,
I'll be happy. But the
website writing wise for
me, if my writing time
during the week, the
(16:41):
block house, two weeks
like at least worth of
writing time, they were
so draining. And even
though I did enjoy doing
them after it, I was just
finding them so hard
around all of the other
work as well. So I
started outsourcing that,
and a few of them went
really well, to be
honest. And then it come
to one of them, and the
night before, the night
(17:04):
before I was going to
send it to the client, he
just sent us an email.
And he was like, Yeah,
haven't done it.
Couldn't, couldn't get my
head around it. And he
waited till then to tell
you that was it. So I was
like, right, okay, sound.
And he was like, Yeah. He
sent us what he had, and
it was like a few notes
for a home page. Pretty
much it was like, I was
(17:24):
starting from scratch. So
I was like, right? So the
two weeks, luckily, the
client had said I'd get
myself a two week buffer.
So the next two weeks
were me just like,
cleared everything right
in this website, got it
across, and went after I
got it across, I took on
one more website, which
went all right. And then
I was just like, that was
(17:44):
this. I was like, I'm not
outsourcing them. I'm not
doing them anymore. And
even now, John Mackey
does well out of it. Now,
because I send all of my
website, I've given quite
a few. Actually, I've
just sent them to today
as well. But I was it was
so hard, because you've
got people coming to you
who are like, and the
more you say no, the more
(18:05):
people want it as well.
Lea Turner (18:06):
Isn't that
the weirdest thing as
well, when you get to
that point with your
reputation? And it's a
really good point,
actually, because I think
a lot of people don't
even believe that this is
going to happen for them.
Because when you're at
the beginning and you're
just like, I'll take any
work. I will take
anything and everything.
I'll
Alex Thompson (18:19):
say
yesterday, when you're
first getting started,
and it's like, it's
probably hard to listen
to actually, because it's
a really nice place to
be. I've worked really
hard to get here, but I
do acknowledge it is a
nice place to be, of like
knocking back jobs like
that. Sorry
Lea Turner (18:34):
for the
interruption, but I've
simply got to tell you
about the vault. The
Vault is our light
membership to the halt
for just 20 pounds, you
can access more than 85
master classes delivered
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we add four or more every
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you know you can trust
with quite literally 10s
of 1000s of pounds worth
(18:55):
of training inside the
vault and no contract or
commitment. Some might
have called it the
Netflix for business
growth. You can sign up
at the-holt.com/vault,
and see for yourself. Now
back to our conversation,
and if people are
listening that are about
to start their business,
or maybe they've they're
in that first year of
their business, they're
absolutely probably
(19:15):
sitting there thinking,
I'm never going to get to
that point. Yeah, like,
Oh my God. What have they
done to get to that
point? And you're
absolutely right. You get
to this point and you go,
Oh my God. I genuinely
never thought I would get
here, but it's all part
of that evolution. And I
think that's one of the
hardest things to accept
as a early stage business
owner, is that you are
(19:36):
going to, personally,
mentally evolves so much
in the next few years.
And I know that our
wonderful studio manager
here, Dan has was saying
at the beginning, is it
normal to cry yourself to
sleep at night when you
first, when you first
start a business and it
and it absolutely is like
I remember going to bed
at like, 1am 2am after
work. Working really,
really late, and I just
(19:57):
couldn't get my head in
the game, and I couldn't
concentrate, and I'm so
distracted all the time,
which partly because I've
got ADHD that I know now,
but I found it so hard to
really believe that I
wasn't going to always be
like this, constantly
feeling like I'm fighting
fires. But there is like,
a point where you go,
hold on a minute. I
actually believe that I
am going to keep getting
(20:18):
clients because I've got
a process for getting
clients now, and I'm
whether that's social
media or word of mouth or
you're running ads or
whatever it might be, I
have a process, and I
know that every time I've
been convinced I won't
get more clients, more
clients have shown up.
Yes, when I have to
believe the facts now and
stop believing, my brain
that's convinced everything's
Alex Thompson (20:39):
going when
it happens, but there's a
switch happens from
hoping something's going
to come in to just
knowing something is and
I remember waking up on a
Monday morning when I
first started my
business, so I was, like,
few months in, or
whatever, getting on
Monday morning and had
not no work on just
nothing to do that week.
And remember thinking,
oh, I'll just, I guess
I'll go for a run or a
walk or something like
(21:00):
that, and getting back
from the walk and
checking my emails, and
there was, like a blog in
there, and I was like,
okay, cool. That's what
I'm doing this week, then
just filling my time with
reading books and doing
more courses and
learning. That's kind of
what is it
Lea Turner (21:12):
kind of like.
And this just popped into
my head. But I feel like
I always, at the
beginning, felt like my
clients were in control
of everything, and my
clients dictated what I
was going to do that
week, and was I, was I
going to get enough
leads? And it was all
kind of in their control.
And then at some point, I
just went, hold on a
minute. I'm in control
here. I can say no to
clients. And when you
(21:32):
actually realize that you
can you're getting enough
clients in that you get
to the point where you
go, Well, I can't to
start with you say yes to
everything, right? And
you end up working
yourself into the ground,
and then realizing, Oh,
this isn't sustainable. I
need to actually start
saying no. And every
business owner I know has
gone through this
process. They get to the
point where saying yes to
everything, to
(21:52):
everything, working
themselves into the
ground. Them realizing
that they didn't start
their business to work
themselves into the
ground, because if they
wanted to do that, they
would have stayed
employed. And then they
go, Oh, hold on a minute.
I can actually say no.
And usually it's because
you have a conversation
with somebody who's been
where you are, and they
go, you can actually say
no. You don't have to
work with everybody that
(22:13):
asks. And you go, Oh, and
it's like a light bulb
goes on, and you start
saying no to the things
you don't want to do and
yes to the things you do.
That brings that
confidence out there, and
then you start realizing
that, hey, I'm in the
driving seat here. Yeah,
that's why I started a
business. Yeah,
Alex Thompson (22:27):
the two
biggest game changers for
me have been having the
confidence to eventually
outsource to a team and
saying no, but there I
remember. I remember
being in this exact
situation and hearing
that advice as well.
They're two of the most
annoying pieces of pieces
of advice when you don't
think you're ready for
(22:47):
that. But no one's ever
going to get to where
they want to be without
getting help and without
saying no, because I've
done it before, where you
say yes to a job that
isn't really a good fit,
the red flags are waving
everywhere. The rate's
pretty rubbish. But you
don't you say yes,
because you don't think
something else is going
(23:08):
to come in and then you
take that job, something
else comes in. That's the
right fit is, is better
pay. But because you said
yes to the other thing,
you now can't do that
thing, and it might need
some more work. Whereas
the more I've said no and
the more I've been clear
on this is what I do.
This is the offer. This
is the process. This is
(23:29):
just the crack in
general. Since I've
shifted to that, all my
sales calls have been
much better, yeah. And
for the first time, the
other day, I actually
heard someone saying, I
don't definitely have
this yet. On home, she's
going to say, yes. She
said, Oh, I'm thinking
about going with X, like
another copywriter,
essentially, but he
doesn't have a team
behind him like you do.
And that was the first
(23:49):
time I'd heard that in
like, a positive note,
almost because I used to
pride myself on I'm a
craftsman. Every email is
every single word, but
you also
Lea Turner (23:58):
get people
that like, Oh no, I don't
want to work with an
agency, like they see
agency as like a dirty
word in marketing in
general, right? No, no, I
don't want to work with
an agency recruiters as
well.
Alex Thompson (24:08):
Whereas
the way I explain it and
the way that I actually
think of this as a
benefit, it's like, look,
you're getting the book.
They are getting the best
of both worlds, because
they're getting me who
they often want to work
with, who is kind of like
the chef at the past,
like only family are
chefs the temperament,
kind of like the chef at
(24:30):
the past. Nothing goes
out that I haven't seen.
So every I read, every
single email that the
Freelancers read, it goes
back to them one or two
times before goes to the
client. So they're
getting what they're
coming to me for, which
is often not boring
emails that are going to
work. Essentially, they
know they're getting that
because they're getting
me involved and I'm
involved in the strategy.
(24:51):
But then they're also
getting someone else who
genuinely loves writing
the emails about their
thing. Yeah, and they're
getting my process behind
it, so they. Literally
their passion and the
time that I'm freeing up
on saying to them, oh, we
should do this. I've got
ideas for this as well.
Whereas when I'm doing
all the writing time for
(25:13):
the extra strategy stuff,
they're getting the three
meals back. And that's
all that's a
Lea Turner (25:17):
really
interesting one, because
I I worked myself into
the ground with with my
first business, I spent
the entire nine years
working myself into the
ground until I started
outsourcing a little bit,
and I was still because
there wasn't much of a
margin. I was still
working myself into the
ground when I started the
and the LinkedIn training
was very much the same,
(25:37):
because it was all on me
and my time. But growing
the whole has been
different because I've
been able to do things
myself, to start with,
bring in a team member to
take over those things,
freeing up my time. And
I'm now at a really
beautiful point where
you're doing the email
marketing. Danielle and
taxi are doing the
community management,
Alex and Laura are doing
the tech, and I am left
(25:57):
to innovate and create
and push things forward
and do things like this
podcast, to build the
brand and to help more
people. But I didn't. I
got to points in running
the halt where I was
feeling like I was in a
slump because I was
running the LinkedIn
training and I was going
away to train people. I
was doing one to ones,
which were very energy
(26:18):
draining, as much as I
loved them, they drained
a lot of my energy on a
day, and I didn't have
the creative space. And I
think that's something
that people don't think
about when you start
outsourcing. Is you as a
business owner, if your
desire is to push the
business forward and to
grow it and to create
more services or more
arms of it, you need that
(26:38):
space to not think of
anything in particular,
but to do you know, like
breathing rooms for your
brain, the
Alex Thompson (26:46):
breathing
rooms, that's a really
good point, and it's
something I had, like, a
few weeks ago, when I
made the decision, right?
Well,
Lea Turner (26:52):
that's what
the Seychelles was for
all of us, wasn't it when
we were there as well,
and
Alex Thompson (26:55):
then more
recently as well, it was
when I was like, Okay, I
want to find some help
for these clients reached
out the Freelancers, they
were all happy. That
afternoon, I wrote my
first sales post on
LinkedIn that I'd written
in probably three months.
You're
Lea Turner (27:11):
the king of
recycling. Yeah,
Alex Thompson (27:14):
been
following us for a year.
You'll start to see them
coming up again. But I
was like, I wrote a sales
post on LinkedIn, and got
a couple of leads from
it, and then had loads of
ideas for videos and
stuff like, I used to do
loads of videos a while
ago, and I had more time
than that. I just all
that sort of stuff had
stopped, and it was a
complete shift of his
(27:35):
right? Okay, freelance
team is in place. This is
all how it's going to be.
It was within moments I
was, I'll write something
on LinkedIn, I'll write
some of my own emails for
God knows how long I've
done. And it was, you
say, it's that, and then
the ideas you have in
that creative space is
what makes you Yeah. So
most of the money
Lea Turner (27:52):
we would we
we were mentioned. We
were at a retreat in the
Seychelles together. So
there was you and three
others. One of them's
Wendy, who's the sponsor
of this podcast, who's
also an incredible
podcaster, and we were
all sitting around in
this stunning villa. We
were super lucky. It's a
beautiful, beautiful
(28:13):
villa, and we're all
sitting around in this
beautiful living room
having this conversation.
When you were saying one
of the things earlier, it
made me remember as like
a flashback. I could
imagine you there, and
you're like, linen, linen
outfit, and we were
sitting there talking
about it, and you were,
I'm sure one of us, if it
wasn't me, it was someone
else that said Yeah, but
you don't have to say yes
to it. And a job had come
in, and you were talking
about wanting to maybe
(28:34):
offload a particular
customer or a couple of
clients that maybe, I
think it was website
writing that you were
doing, maybe for an
agency or something, and
you were like, I am
thinking about maybe not
continuing with this
customer. And then they'd
emailed and canceled.
Alex Thompson (28:48):
Like
causes an absolute
nightmare before that,
when was definitely won't
be watching. Yeah, no, I
checked my phone. I
checked my phone after
I'd said that, and that,
like emailed us to
cancel, and I was just
like, and
Lea Turner (29:01):
it was such a
relief. But I remember us
having those
conversations where you
were thinking about
niching down, and you
were thinking about
bringing either in an
employee or freelancer.
We were we were throwing
around, like the pros and
cons of it all, and you
were still in that I'm
not sure, phase, but that
week that we had a way
where, I mean, we didn't
have to make any
decisions that week. That
was one of the apart from
(29:22):
the beautiful setting,
the fact that we didn't
have to decide what we
had for dinner, where we
were going, how we were
getting there, there was
no everything was just
done. This is the dinner
that you're getting. This
is a place that we're
going. Here's some a few
hours to just chill by
the pool and chat with
each other or hang out.
We were networking. But
it was a, it was a
business retreat that we
(29:43):
went on, and all of the
conversations were pretty
much exclusively around
business, yeah, but it
was, it was a beautiful
space because I
definitely leapt forward.
That was the point where
I went. I'm going to stop
LinkedIn training this
year, and I'm going to
really drive the whole
forward. And I want other
ways to grow the whole
you. You, obviously that
was pivotal in your
business. Busy who was
(30:03):
there as well, and she
was one of the people
speaking like I was, but
we benefited just as
much, and she massively
made an impact. And the
impact that we had, as
beautiful as the
Seychelles, was it wasn't
the beauty of the
location, it was the fact
that we took a week away
from responsibilities in
the day to day running to
think genuinely think
about what we wanted from
(30:25):
our businesses and what
was important to us. And
I don't think any of us
said we want to be rich.
No, no, that wasn't hard
to
Alex Thompson (30:32):
replicate,
because I experienced
like that. You say it's
amazing, it but it's the
only way you can kind of
half come close in in
real life, because it is
real life. Really, it
didn't feel like reality
anything. Yeah, away from
that is like just carving
out that regular time to
work on the business. So
one of my business
coaches, uh, Ford
(30:53):
Henderson. He's called it
was one of the things
he's drilled into me for
the last three, four
years. And I've been good
at it. Sometimes I've
been not so good at it
most of the time is that
regular, blocked out time
in your diary where
you're like, non
negotiable. I am not
doing any client work
during this time. I'm
working on the business,
(31:14):
and that could be so a
lot of work I've been
doing at the minute as
well, which has been a
game changer. And
something I wish I'd done
ages ago is getting all
the processes that I take
for granted out of my
head on the paper so
someone else can follow
it and do it. So that's
what I'm doing now with
the agency. So I can
essentially get someone
new right out to the
agency. I can give them
(31:35):
the process and say, This
is how I onboard of
client, step by step.
This is how I do the
first month's worth of
emails. This is the
regular monthly flow
going forward from there.
It's got everything of
how I write people's PSs
on the bottom of their
emails, how I lay out
their emails, how I
research them, how I do
the planning of your
business, just everything
(31:56):
is inside there so they
can literally follow that
not having worked with me
or done any writing for
me before, and it's stuff
like that, like when I
used to hear processes
and systems, when I used
to be working, I think,
oh, and I'm the same,
even me and I used to
think, like, what does
that even mean? But then
actually getting it all
out of your head, I'm
like, Oh, I do actually
have a process that I
follow here. I do
(32:16):
actually have a system.
And that's
Lea Turner (32:17):
really good
advice for anybody that's
however far into your
business, if you haven't
done this, and especially
if you're right at the
beginning of starting
your business, do it from
the beginning. Document
how you do everything,
whether it's loom videos
screen, like showing your
screen of how you do
everything, yeah. Like
have everything
Alex Thompson (32:36):
attend
process to the pretend
first person you're going
to start outsourcing to
Yeah, right, in that kind
of way, because then that
will help you explain a
problem. And when
Lea Turner (32:46):
it gets to
the point that you're
ready to extract yourself
from the day to day
running of the business,
you'd be able to put in a
manager to be you,
because everything is
documented, yeah, and
they're walking into, I
mean, it would be easy to
just slot into your
shoes, wouldn't it? I
mean, not saying that
you're not completely
lower baseball and
everything, but, but it
does help. Yeah, it would
give you that comfort.
(33:07):
Or, you know, maybe one
of your team would become
more senior, and you can
say, Okay, well, you're
going to do what I was
doing. I'm going to trust
you to oversee it and
remove yourself from the
business even further, or
just put yourself into
the recruitment and, you
know, innovation role
that your marketing role
to keep you're just now
bringing in clients, and
everybody else is
Alex Thompson (33:27):
doing it
helps you stick to your
own rules as well. So
sometimes I'll well, if I
was, like, onboarding
clients and I maybe knew
a bit about them, or I
knew a bit about the
industry, or something
like that, I would skip
some steps, and I'd get,
like, two months in and
be like, Well, I've run
out of ideas to talk
about what we're going to
do now. And I thought,
God, I haven't even had a
proper kickoff call with
(33:47):
them, because I just knew
enough to get started
very quickly. Yeah. So by
writing all your
processes down, it's
like, this is the ideal
roadmap of how to
properly onboard a client
and how to get miles
ahead and how to properly
run it as well. So
sometimes, if a client
doesn't want it to do
something, if they want
you to change your
process, or something
like that, having a
process of, no, this is
(34:08):
the best way to do it. It
helps you on sales calls
so you can because you
can explain the process
to people, because
service provider you
selling a process at the
end of the day. But then
it saves you from
yourself. If some clients
just want it to kind of
change things, you can
come back to it and be
like, No, this is the way
I do it, and this is why,
so you can save yourself
from that as well.
Lea Turner (34:26):
What would
you say in terms of like,
hiring the freelancers?
What would your best
piece of advice be?
Because you waited quite
objectively. You waited
quite long. Yeah, quite
long. I bought in an
accountant almost
immediately, yeah, then
it was a VA for me, Luke.
And then my tech team
(34:48):
that, you know, they're
freelance as well. I
don't only pay them for
the time that they do.
And now I've got a team
of, I don't even know
now, what 10 probably
across the business.
Everyone's freelance. No,
no one's I'm only
employed. Yeah, he's
employed. I'm a but it
When did you know you
were ready for a
freelancer? And maybe,
what advice have you got
around? Because you've
(35:08):
made bad hires, right in
terms of freelancers?
Yeah, what's been the
difference in finding the
good ones over the bad
ones? Yeah,
Alex Thompson (35:15):
guess
what? It's hard for us,
not like, it's hard to
know how what to take
from that one experience
with that lab, because
he'd actually like done a
good job before that. I
think it was maybe just
too much too soon. And I
guess from that is like,
the way I kind of run my
freelance team is because
I can remember what it
was like to be them not
so long ago. Yeah, I'll
(35:35):
try and be the freelance
boss, even though I'm not
their boss, their kind of
freelance manager, I
guess that I wanted when
I was a freelancer as
well. So I'll never ask
them to do anything at
the last minute unless
it's, like, ridiculously
rare. So like, a couple
of weeks ago, asked ollie
to do something the next
day, but that was, like,
a very rare thing,
(35:56):
because it's rare, they
probably didn't say yeah,
and I'll never ask them
to do I pay them upfront
before the work starts.
Ask them how much they
won't pay from it. I
never fight them back on
their rates, just simple
things like that. I don't
nitpick it stupid
feedback like but I also
give them feedback as
well. When I was writing,
it annoyed me if I didn't
(36:16):
get good quality feedback
from people, and it
couldn't help as grow as
a writer. So recently,
I've had to kind of say
it, some of them, look,
I've just been fixing
stuff, and I've not been
giving you the feedback,
which probably isn't
ideal for you, because
you'll see an email going
out with loads of
changes, and you're
probably thinking, Well,
why has he changed that?
And why has he changed
this? Because I'm not
telling them they can't
fix it for next time. So
(36:36):
I'd say them, look, it's
probably going to be a
bit rubbish in the meat
in the short term,
because you're going to
get more feedback from
us, but hopefully makes
them a better writer, and
helps them more in the
long term as
Lea Turner (36:46):
well. And
that's useful, I think,
for anybody who's trying
to grow their freelance
team, because I do this
with Luke and Danielle
and and everyone, I'm
really direct with the
feedback that I give, but
kind Yeah, and I'm
noticing a theme in, you
know, the other people
that we've spoken to on
this podcast is actually
being the leader that you
would want to have, and
(37:07):
it's something that I've
always kept in mind when
growing the halt that
I'm, you know,
objectively, the leader
of the community. It's my
community that I started.
It's Our Community, but I
started it, I created
what I would want from
that. And Danielle said
the exact same thing. She
has become the team
(37:27):
leader of her team that
she knows she would want.
And I know Luke would say
the same thing as well.
It's having that self
awareness of saying,
Would I like to be
treated this way? And if
the answer is no, you
shouldn't be doing that
for your team, and I
think that's something
that employed people
really that that often I
hear that the stories of
(37:48):
these terrible leaders,
are they not saying to
them, Well, how would I
feel if I was treated
that way? Yeah, and
because the majority of
the time I would, I would
feel like shit. I don't
want, I don't want to be
treated that way. You'll
often
Alex Thompson (37:58):
treat
yourself worse than like
the way that so the way,
the way that I track
myself as a technical
employee of my business,
I would never no time on
don't pay myself enough.
Ollie, get up at four
o'clock on a Sunday
morning to work for five
hours to get this out on
a Monday. Never do, but
that's what I used to do.
(38:19):
I used to get up at four
or five in the morning
Saturday and Sunday
mornings to do extra work
day weekend, I used to
work late. I would like
have to text Kelsey, my
partner, and say, I'm
really sorry at the last
minute, I can't go and
get off you from school.
Can you go and get him
and stuff like that?
Whereas now I'm trying to
treat me as one of the
Freelancers, almost. But
even even now, that's
(38:40):
still part of my
business, which I'm still
doing myself. Now, it
comes in phases with
outsourcing. It's like
you outsource a certain
amount, and then you need
to almost get comfortable
with that and make sure
that's working. But it's
still that kind of that
money mindset of, okay, I
can still pay myself, and
there's still a little
bit of extra money coming
into the business, even
(39:00):
though I'm paying for
these people. And then
after a few months, it'd
be like, Okay, right?
I've still got the money
I want, and I've got
those people in place.
What else can I outsource
now? And that's at the
stage I'm at now. I'm
still probably designing.
I've got my sister
working for us as a VA.
She's helping us design a
lot of the emails, but
I'm still doing a lot of
them as well. So that's
the next day. I'm like,
(39:21):
right? Actually make real
to myself that I don't
design any of the emails
by myself. It needs to be
someone else helping with
us. So if people are
feeling like that now, of
like, I don't know where
to start, it's kind of
just like writing a big
list down of the things
that, yeah, you're not
very good at. You don't
enjoy doing
Lea Turner (39:36):
go out of it
as well. Like, does it
because we all think that
we have to do these
things ourselves. But
actually, there are a lot
of things that someone
else could do just as
well as we could, if not
better. And that's the
point I got to with my
businesses. I was like, I
want to learn how to do
this myself. I'm
terrible, like that, good
or bad, depending on your
viewpoint. I want to
learn to do these things
(39:56):
myself. Yeah, and I did
it with my email
marketing. I was doing it
myself. I was like, I
want to learn how to do
this myself, and I
learned a lot from when
we first worked together.
And then I was like,
okay, but I'm, I'm
adequate at this, and
it's getting results, but
I now I'm ready to hire
somebody who does it
better than I am. I
Alex Thompson (40:13):
did a
launch for you. Then you
Yeah, you kept saying,
Oh, can you help us with
the whole emails? And
because I was so busy, I
just didn't follow up
with it in time. And then
I was on the then I was
on the email list and got
started getting this
launch. And I was like,
this is one of my
launches. And I was like,
Oh, she just just knows
how to do it. Now,
Lea Turner (40:30):
I learned too
much, because we were
very collaborative when
we were working together.
Like I wasn't just do
this for me. I wanted to
understand why you were
doing it that way, and I
was fascinated by that.
But that's a key thing
about being a successful
business owner or
entrepreneur. You've got
to be curious. So
thinking back to you if
(40:52):
you were having a
conversation, because
we're going to wrap this
up now, otherwise we're
going to run massively
over we'll never put it
all in. But if you were
having a conversation
with Alex Thompson from
one year into his
business. Yeah, so you
were in that first year
space. You've done 12
months. You've learned a
few lessons now. Now
(41:12):
you're having a
conversation with him.
What would be some advice
that you would give? Or
what would you say to
maybe speed up getting to
where you are now, or
convince them that he was
going to get there
successfully. Yeah,
Alex Thompson (41:26):
I think
probably three, probably
three years in. Because I
think for something like
a skill, like a
copywriter, one year, I
would just, I would say
to us, like, keep getting
feedback from writers who
are better, better than,
yeah. I wish I'd done
that sooner. Yeah, to
like, really learn,
really learn your craft.
So I would say that as
well as as good as it is
(41:47):
to, like, grow your
business and find more
clients and stuff like
that, you also need to be
good at what you do as
well. So one year in, I
would just say, keep
knuckling down. Learn
from people are better
than you. Three years in,
I would just give myself
a shake and be like, let
go. And
Lea Turner (42:00):
that's what
we talked about in the
stage shows, wasn't it?
It's like you are ready
now to detach yourself
from doing everything.
Yeah, and you suddenly,
in the last six months,
things are properly
catapulted.
Alex Thompson (42:12):
In the
weeks that I made the
decision I've changed my
business both times. In
three days, I just sat
down and went, right,
okay, I'm not doing this,
this and this. Who's
going to be good for
that? Them, them and
them, send a message, get
them on a call. This is
how it works. What's your
rate, right? Okay, you're
starting next month. Was
three days when I was
working with one of my
coaches, and last
November, that's what I
(42:33):
did with him. Changed my
business in three days,
and then working with
Andrew and Pete in the
summer, they were like,
This is what you should
do. I said, I'm on your
program. I'm paying you
to tell us what to do.
Okay, then change it
again. So, yeah, make a
plan and just go for it.
Lea Turner (42:45):
I really love
that advice. Alex, thank
you for everything that
you do for my business,
and thank you for coming
all the way over to
Manchester to film this.
It's been a pleasure, and
this one has once again,
been incredibly well
behaved. And go and enjoy
your six. Six. Scores.
Before you go, I just
need to tell you about
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