April 7, 2025 • 56 mins
Does the term Personal Brand give you the ick?
It’s egotistical, self-indulgent and for those full of their own self-importance.
My guest Ash Rathod, Brand & Story consultant, felt exactly the same, but he re-framed it. It became a way of connecting with audiences through storytelling. If you focus on serving your customers and creating authentic connections, you will attract the right audience.
Ash shares his experiences after sharing his most vulnerable story on social media, of developing Vitiligo, a skin condition that meant he lost pigment in his skin. This taught him that being vulnerable and genuine in a world filled with superficiality can be a superpower for your brand.
Ash shares so much wisdom in this episode on ways you can develop a brand strategy that aligns with who you are, and make sure you stand out from the crowd.
“We should be audience obsessed” – Ash
You’ll hear about:
- Personal branding should focus on serving others, not self-indulgence.
- Storytelling is crucial for businesses to connect with their audience.
- Authenticity is key in personal branding and storytelling.
- Engagement on social media should be genuine, not contrived
Connect with Ash:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashrathod/
Threads - https://www.threads.net/@theashrathod
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@TheAshRathod
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/theashrathod
Ash’s Website - https://www.ashrathod.com/
Digital Focus Creatives - https://www.digitalfocuscreatives.com/
Connect with me:
My website - https://leaturner.co.uk/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/lea-turner/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/leaturnerholt
Find out about The HoLT:
The HoLT - https://www.the-holt.com/
The HoLT on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/theholt
The HoLT on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/theholtcommunity/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/theholtcommunity
The Vault - https://www.the-holt.com/vault
Join The Holt waiting list - https://www.the-holt.com/waitlist
This podcast is sponsored by QDos. Use the code LEA10 at the checkout to get your discount when signing up - https://my.qdoscontractor.com/code/10255/115219
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ash Rathod (00:00):
I had this like,
(00:00):
allergic reaction to even the
term personal branding, yeah, oh
yeah. I just thought, like it's
so self indulgent, it's quite
egotistical, the fact that
you're branding yourself the
only sacred thing you have, and
you want to market yourself and
and I just don't see it that
way. Now I've just redefined
what personal branding means to
(00:21):
me. For me, it's about the
people that you're trying to
serve and impact. Whether you're
a solopreneur or you're a
corporation. We should be
customer centric. We should be
customer obsessed. We should be
audience obsessed. Yeah, that's
the key, I think, to figuring
out your brand strategy.
Lea Turner (00:52):
Ash Rathod welcome
to The HoLT Survival Guide for
Small Businesses. It is
Ash Rathod (00:57):
an honour and humble
to be here.
Lea Turner (00:59):
I'm well you, before
we came on here, you told me
that you don't do things like
this very often, so I'm really
honoured that you decided to
come and join us today in
Manchester.
Ash Rathod (01:08):
Yeah. I mean, it's I
I've said off air that
Manchester is my second home, so
it's always lovely to be here.
And there's been so many times
where I've had the opportunity
to come and see you, like your
Christmas parties and stuff, and
then just some things come up
and yeah. So it's yeah, it's
lovely to do it after so long,
(01:28):
finally
Lea Turner (01:29):
got there. So before
we get into things, tell us a
little bit about who you are and
what you do. So
Ash Rathod (01:37):
simply, I help
people and businesses tell their
story to help them grow. That's
the That's the very simple
version of it. And if I were to
kind of expand on that, I am a
brand strategist, a storyteller,
and my background has always
(01:59):
been in communications of some
sort. At university, I I fell
into it. Fell in love with
storytelling, and it was more on
the entertainment side of
things. So I did, I did Media
Communications at university and
but specialised in script
writing. So script writing for
TV, film, radio, that sort of
(02:21):
thing. I didn't quite do media
production, but I was more into
the the writing side of things.
And it was just, I don't know
why I fell in love with it. I
think it was just, I love
dialogue. For some reason, I
love people. And, yeah, it's,
it's weird in terms of what I do
now, it's kind of gone full
circle, yeah, and yeah, I fell
(02:45):
into communications. I worked in
TV for a while, thinking that I
get into TV after university, to
get into film, and I just did
all right in sales. So I was
doing TV sales, or media sales,
as it was called then, and I
just did really well. And yeah,
I moved into marketing agencies,
(03:07):
digital marketing, and I found
the actually storytelling just
is important everywhere,
especially in business and
communication. So I kind of
Yeah, I stuck to that, and here
I am. I'm going full circle back
into the actual storytelling
structures and how you tell
(03:29):
stories. And I really focus on
that these days, when I'm
helping people, individuals and
businesses. Were you a reader as
a kid? I read a lot. Yeah, yeah.
I read a I read a lot. I drew a
lot as well, really, yeah, I
loved anything creative, so I
went into music. I went into
(03:50):
writing. Yeah, I had a lot of
brothers. I still have a lot of
brothers, but how many brothers?
So I've got six brothers. Oh my
gosh, six brothers, seven,
including me, yeah, and one
sister that is a that is a big
family. It's a big family. And,
yeah, hats off. Were you? Were
you a quiet one of the family?
(04:10):
Yeah, I think I was one of the
quiet ones. There's a couple of
us are that are quite quiet.
Then there's a few of us that
are really extroverts. And if
anyone sees us in public
together, you want you want to
know we're brothers. We're just
completely different. Yeah, it's
Lea Turner (04:26):
funny, because I was
very studious, as they called
it, as a kid, I would binge
through books. I remember my mum
used to take me to the library,
and she joked she needed to get
me a little cart like Matilda
used to have on the film to
carry all the books back,
because I would just go cover to
cover, multiple books a day, and
she's like, I think you've read
the entire children's section of
the library. You need to now
(04:47):
move on to the teenage section.
But I loved it, and I was
obsessed with how you could
create worlds with words. And
that's what you help people to
do, isn't it? You create, you
help them to convert. Their
world to the rest of the world,
their own story, their own
experiences. Why is that so
important for businesses to
(05:07):
understand and share their brand
story? I
Ash Rathod (05:12):
think it's a way of
connection. I think it's the way
we connect with brands. You
know, there's, there's obviously
the the usual case studies like
Apple and the big companies, the
one have been great at
humanising their brand in themes
like, you know, being the
(05:33):
creator and things like that.
But the fact that you you do
that and you connect with
people. I think that's where
storytelling comes alive. And,
yeah, and I think it's
important. And going back to
your, your point about the the
books, I was exactly the same,
and it was a form of escapism as
well, without probably me not,
(05:54):
not, not really knowing it as a
kid, you, you, you draw yourself
into these books. And there's an
actual term called Narrative
transportation and and it's you
just, yeah, you just get into
this world. And we do it when we
watch movies, and we do it with
brands as well, because it kind
of helps identify, you know,
(06:15):
give you that identity, and it
helps you, I don't know, connect
with a certain tribe as well.
You know, you get your apple
tribes, you get your Android
tribes, you get your Tesla
tribes. You get your, I don't
know, Harry
Lea Turner (06:28):
Potter tribes,
tribes, some of those. Oh, well.
SLM, yeah, there's
Ash Rathod (06:32):
that. There's that a
certain identity. And I think if
as a storyteller, whether you're
a individual or you're or a
business, and you find out what
that tribe is, and what that
tribe's more is, is what Martin
Neumeier talks about, their
values. And you align with them,
you just have a stronger,
(06:52):
stronger brand. Yeah,
Lea Turner (06:54):
one of the things
that I have tried to explain to
people in the past when I've
been working with them on like
LinkedIn training, people have
this kind of assumption that
when we're talking about
personal brand, that we mean you
have to tell everybody
everything about yourself, that
you have to dump everything or
your entire identity out into
the into the public eye. And
(07:15):
that's not true. Actually. It's
about finding the things that
you have in common with people,
and if people can find something
that they have in common with
you, they're going to be more
likely to remember you, and your
story is so much part of that.
And you know, as an example,
people connect with me because
they know I'm a lone parent, or
(07:35):
that I'm a parent of a boy, or
that I like football, or that I
like to travel. And they'll find
these little sections of
commonality, yeah, connect with
me, therefore remember me more,
because they they know that I've
got something in common with
them, so I stand out more in
their brain. And then they
they're more likely to pay
attention to me the next time
(07:55):
they see me and feel closer to
me and trust me more, because
they can relate to something
personal. And the more of those
little strands that you can
create of like connection
between people, the more points
of commonality they can find
with you, the higher the chance
that they're going to remember
you, refer you, want to work
with you. And it just
accelerates that trust. So in
(08:18):
terms of our listeners, let's
say, because we've got,
hopefully, I say, a lot of small
business owners listening to us.
One of the things I've come up
against when it comes to
speaking to small business
owners in in the membership
community and and through
LinkedIn training, is they'll
say they're boring. They'll say,
Yeah, but there's, I'm not a
(08:39):
very interesting person. I'm I'm
just normal. We all think we're
normal. How do you work with
somebody like that to help them
identify those, those important
parts of their story that they
can use to connect with the
right people?
Ash Rathod (08:55):
Yeah, I think I've
said it before. I think I'm
probably the most boring person
ever, but people don't seem to
think so. And I find it amazing
that that one post that I wrote
accidentally, by the way, not
accidentally, but it was more of
a therapeutic post out there. It
(09:17):
just resonated with many people
on many different levels, not
the same details. They didn't
have the skin condition that I
had, but they identified with
themes of being that imposter,
but having that not lack of
confidence. So this is a viral
post that you put up, is it?
Yeah, and that was probably
(09:37):
around about 2020, so probably
about five years ago, I never
used to use LinkedIn that much.
I used it for our clients,
because I own an agency, and now
for the last 15 years, and we
used really LinkedIn for ads and
things like that, but not really
organic content, and definitely
not for personal brands. And
(09:58):
then, yeah, I was just amazed.
How much it resonated with other
people, the amount of not just
the comments and engagement that
I got, but the actual DMS that I
got, private DMS they wouldn't
even want to comment publicly,
but then in the DMS, they've
said things like, I feel like
I've been seen, you know, you've
(10:19):
been able to give me that bit of
confidence to message you and
talk about my things and like,
you know, they talk about and I
was like, God, this is quite
heavy because, you know, it's
quite heavy because, obviously,
I'm not a I'm not a counsellor,
I'm not a therapist. But is it
so heartwarming to see that it's
touched so many people, and
(10:40):
they've, they've not got the
same details as me, you know,
like the vitiligo and stuff. And
then I, yeah, when I started on
LinkedIn, and I started seeing
pockets of people kind of doing
the same thing, and you were
definitely one of them. For me.
You were huge inspiration. And
again, there's that the theme
again, right? There's, there's
that theme again, where me and
(11:01):
you are completely different,
yeah, and different stories all
together, but those themes came
into play where you didn't quite
fit in, and actually now you've
transformed into a different
person, and you've become
confident because of that. And
yeah, I think there's a lesson
for listeners out there, like
you have to. You have to really
(11:22):
lean into that and it, and it
takes, it takes a brave person.
I understand that because I was
exactly the same. But once you
do that, you realise actually
that was a superpower that you
really wanted or you needed, and
not to blend in. And I'll, and
I'll probably reference Martin
(11:42):
Neumeier a few times in this
conversation, but it's the same
with business, like he wrote a
book called the Zag. So the idea
and the premise of that is, when
everyone's zigging, you zag, you
just want to, you want to do be
different enough to be noticed,
but you got to do it honestly as
(12:02):
well. Yeah, and I'm sure we'll
get into it. There's the there's
that other extreme where there's
a very much those contrived post
and they just do it for one
reason only, and that's not the
way, but kind of lean into those
things that you think are boring
about you. You think that
(12:23):
people, oh, already know this as
a business owner as well, with
me and marketing as well. I
talked about things, and I talk
about writing, and I thought
talk about storytelling. I'm not
a writer at all. I'm not a
copywriter, but I know a little
bit. And then when you see
people in your comments and
engaging with you, thinking,
(12:43):
I've learned something you
realise actually, not everyone
knows what you know, and you're
not as boring as you think you
are,
Lea Turner (12:50):
and that's it. Like
the simplest stories can or
certainly, I've, I've
experienced the fact that I tell
super simple story, but it'll
make someone laugh, or make
someone feel good, or make
someone feel a little bit seen.
And I was just doing a master
class for my membership, and we
were talking about, like, funny
stories that you can tell. And
(13:12):
we were talking about, like,
when you end up in the emergency
room, there's inevitably some
sort of we've all ended up in
the emergency room at some point
because of something a bit
embarrassing or funny that's
happened, and we were sort of
relating through humour a lot,
and those funny stories, and
sometimes it can be the most
minute things that you talk
(13:33):
about that don't seem
interesting when you're close
up, but when you sort of step
back a bit and look at it
objectively, you go, actually,
yeah. I suppose that is quite
interesting to other people.
Yeah. I ask other people, if I'm
like, I'm feeling boring and
ordinary, I'll say to other
people, like, what, what do you
think is interesting about me?
Like, is there anything that
(13:54):
makes you go, Oh, that's
different, or that's weird,
yeah, because those, like, the
weird things are usually good
content. I think
Ash Rathod (14:02):
what's interesting
is really weird. It's the
mundane, but the mundane lived
by someone else. Yeah? Because,
and what I mean by that is that
you go through your life and
just doing normal things, and
then when you see other people
doing it in a slightly different
way, yeah, you just think the
one, it's relatable, because
we're exactly the same. And the
(14:23):
second thing is, it's like, fly
on the wall mentality, you know,
when we see the reality shows
and stuff like, What's weird is,
there's the programme in
obviously, the UK, called goggle
box, and it's just people
watching TV.
Lea Turner (14:39):
This is the thing.
It winds me up so much. It's one
of my like my pet peeves is how
popular? And this is such an
unpopular opinion, but goggle
box is literally a TV show where
we are watching other people
watching TV shows. How could
that be? And I'm like, but for
me, it's not. I am not, I don't
(14:59):
like. Vocal box. I'm just like,
why on earth would I spend any
of my life watching other people
watch TV? Watching TV is a waste
of time enough, and I feel
guilty about it, because I'm
always, I need to be busy all
the time. Yeah? But I'm just I
Ash Rathod (15:12):
reality.
Lea Turner (15:15):
I like, Yeah, I do
like the like the island with
Bear Grylls. I used to love
watching like the survival ones
or the race across the world
ones. I find those quite
interesting. But more from a
travel perspective, have you got
into traitors? I did watch the
traitors, but from like a
psychological standpoint, I find
(15:36):
it fascinating to watch that.
And we won't do any spoilers.
Hopefully everyone has seen it
all by now, but, yeah, I've
watched that, and I used to
enjoy Big Brother from that
standpoint, before. It was full
of all like fame, hungry,
desperate, yeah, there was the
original one,
Ash Rathod (15:53):
yeah. And I think to
your point there, the psychology
side of it is just fascinating,
how people behave in different
environments and circumstances.
Yeah, and I think that's that,
again, that's like, you know,
when you tell your stories
online, whether it's about you
on a personal level, or whether
it's about you in a in a work
(16:15):
situation, is just, it's just
interesting. And then people get
involved as well, and that's
great, because everyone has
opinions, and hopefully it still
stays kind of civil, which not
doesn't always happen, but more
so
Lea Turner (16:29):
on LinkedIn than
other social media platforms. I
would say, Yeah, I posted
something on tick tock the other
day of my son playing football,
and they were, they were
literally people in the comment
sections criticising and
insulting, and I'm like, he's a
nine year old boy. Luckily, no
on Tiktok. I find like tiktoks
like the Wild West. I'm not, I
(16:51):
don't think I want to go on
Tiktok. Obviously, I've deleted
the comments and I'm not showing
them to my son, but I'm
thinking, Who are these people
that feel comfortable insulting
a nine year old kid following
their dream. Like, that's why
that is with
Ash Rathod (17:04):
LinkedIn. Is it
because the fact that they can't
you don't really hide?
Lea Turner (17:08):
I think you are
because you've got your real
name, yeah? Because the people
who do it tick tock, YouTube,
Instagram, they always do it
with a fake photo or no photo
and no followers, so it's like a
burner account or something,
yeah? LinkedIn has got your
employer, your colleagues, your
your business attached to it,
yeah, predominantly, you know,
(17:29):
there are people that use fake
profiles, but they're fewer and
further between, yeah. But if it
keeps getting as popular as it
it has been over the last few
years, I imagine that it will
inevitably attract those sorts
of people,
Ash Rathod (17:42):
do you enjoy those?
No, enjoys probably an extreme
word, but when someone disagrees
with you, and they did, they
debate, yeah,
Lea Turner (17:53):
I enjoy intelligent
discourse, yeah, if I'm even if
I'm, you know, I've been on
dates before where we've not
agreed on something, but we've
had a really brilliant
conversation where we're totally
open to other people's opinions.
Then I've also had dates where
I've got walked off because they
won't, won't debate in a civil
(18:16):
and respectful way. Yeah, you
know, and I think LinkedIn
people tend to be less inclined
to sling mud and personal
insults, not always, like I've
had all sorts of things on
there, but a lot less than I
would have done on other
platforms.
Ash Rathod (18:33):
And I think that,
you know, I think that's
important for individuals, but
also for businesses as well. I I
honestly think there's a lot of
people that take the advice be
polarising in the wrong way.
Like polarising doesn't have to
be go out and insult people and
offend. No,
Lea Turner (18:52):
you can be playful
with polarising stuff as well.
Can't you? You can be respectful
and offer an alternative opinion
without criticising others or
without, you know, I am guilty
of it sometimes because I don't
like it when people cheat the
system. I'm very strong sense of
justice so much, and I know
that's something that we agree
on when we see people that are,
(19:13):
you know, over inflating their
metrics and then using that fake
popularity to sell a service,
for example, that makes me quite
frustrated,
Ash Rathod (19:25):
having said that,
the reason why you do that is
because your values are to help
that kind of the small
businesses. And when you've got
people championing that side of
things, that's not going to help
the small business in any way,
shape or form, and it's only
going to put money in those
people's pockets, and
Lea Turner (19:46):
it creates so much
self esteem issues and
comparison itis in these small
business owners going, Well,
hold on a minute. I'm doing
these vapid posts of me holding
a whiteboard with some generic
quote written on it. Why hasn't
mine gone viral? Yeah? Why? Why
is mine terrible? Why does
nobody like me and you're like,
No, babe, there's nothing wrong
with your content, your it's the
(20:06):
fact that you haven't added it
to a engagement pod, or, you
know, got millions of AI
commenters, yeah, yeah, spouting
stuff on it. Why?
Ash Rathod (20:17):
I've always been
interested in in people's
opinions on this. So I'm going
to ask you, why do you think
people are attracted to that?
You know, like when, when they
see these in this engagement,
and they want to know how it's
done, and then they kind of
might realise that they're in
(20:37):
pods, and they actually succumb
to it themselves, and they start
in those pods. I
Lea Turner (20:42):
think some people
think that it is how you do it.
They just because they haven't
been on LinkedIn for very long,
they get sort of sucked into
that. Well, this is just how you
grow. And if you want to get
seen, this is how you do it. And
they'll get people that prey on
them, because it happened to me
when I first started on
LinkedIn, I had a lot of people
messaged me, going, oh, you
know, do you want to join our
(21:03):
engagement group? And I was
like, No, not really, because
you don't really know. I didn't
know what it was, but when they
said to me, Oh, well, you just,
you just comment on people's
posts, I was like, Well, why
would I comment on people's
posts that I don't actually like
that seems weird. Like I only
want to comment on stuff that I
actually enjoy seeing because I
had some awareness of the fact
(21:23):
that algorithms will show me
more of content, like what I've
commented on. So if I'm
commenting on some some
Ash Rathod (21:31):
people don't have
that knowledge, especially
Lea Turner (21:34):
naivety. The people
that I know that have been
sucked into these it's just pure
naivety. And then they go, Oh,
actually, this isn't working.
And it feels weird that I'm
leaving 20 comments on posts
that I don't really understand
or I'm not interested in, and I
feel ick because it's not
genuine. It doesn't it doesn't
feel good for me to leave a
(21:54):
vapid, empty comment just for
the sake of it. And after a few
weeks, they feel that ick deep
inside and go, I don't really
want to do this anymore. This
doesn't feel right, and now my
feed is full of content that I'm
not interested in. So this is
not working for me. But then
there are people that really
just care about what it looks
like to the outside world, yeah,
(22:15):
and those are the people that
will follow it back and
validation, yeah, yeah, yeah,
because it's, it's one of those.
Oh, well, if everybody thinks
I'm popular, then I'm going to
get all these opportunities and
and, to be fair, it does happen.
They do get opportunities
depending
Ash Rathod (22:29):
on what they do,
though, I think as well in terms
of what, what they're trying to
sell themselves, yeah, you know,
so, I mean, I just see it as
fake influence. I just never,
never really understood. Stood
it. I feel like you're also a
you're a slave to the algorithm
in a certain way. And
Lea Turner (22:50):
be honest, having
having that many people
following you and engaging with
you regularly, and you're
supposed to reply to all of
their clients, it's exhausting.
Oh yeah. Energy drain massive.
And the expectations people have
of you, which I still find
strange. Just because you've got
a big following, they expect you
to be something not everybody,
obviously, but they expect you
to be something impressive,
yeah, because you've got this
(23:11):
big following, and you're like,
Well, no, I'm just still
ordinary, yeah, very ordinary.
The
Ash Rathod (23:16):
most important, I
think, out of it all, is that I
think people are becoming a lot
more savvy to it. So when you
see those numbers like and, I
mean, every post gets so many
likes and so much engagement,
the people aren't stupid. Like,
there are people out there that
look at those and think that
(23:37):
that's there's something dodgy
going on there, and that just
kills your credibility. Yeah. So
the the people that you're
actually probably trying to
serve that are ready to spend
with you, they're looking to
look at that and think, No way,
yeah, you know, and you can, you
don't, you don't, well, they'll
spend
Lea Turner (23:51):
with you and realise
that you can't live up to what
the expectations are, because
it's all fake. This is it. This
is and then they're
disappointed. And then you
you've done you're worse off
than when you started, because
actually, you've acquired a
client and disappointed them,
who how many of their friends
are going to now know because
they've gone, oh, well, that
wasn't what I thought it was
going to be. They were really
disappointing. Or it just, it's
(24:11):
just all hype. Yeah, that's so
much worse for you as a brand
than just being honest and
having a small, genuine
following to start with.
Ash Rathod (24:19):
Yeah. One of the
things that we teach in brand
strategy is that the we call it
radical differentiation. So
radical differentiation is just
be really different, like, it's
just you'd be really different
to be be noticed. But there is a
caveat to that is also be really
(24:41):
good. Yeah, right. So, because
there's, you'll see a sea of
sameness, and you'll see the
likes of like from company point
of view, and products, the likes
of liquid death, they look
radically different. Yeah? They
stand for completely different.
They look like a craft beer.
They. Whole communications is
very kind of rebellious, and you
(25:04):
put them, you you put them in a
supermarket line of waters.
You've got vulvix, you've got
the evians, you've got the clear
water, what we call the tribute
bands, like the ones that copy,
the ones that have been doing
well for years, and then comes
along is liquid death looking
different, being different. But
then it also has a has a quite
(25:26):
an important purpose as well. So
I don't know whether you're
aware, but it's liquid death
because they, their villain was
deftly plastic. It's ruining the
earth. So you know where we've
come in cans which are
recyclable, yeah. So it has a
purpose. It's quite rebellious,
and they're doing good so and we
can do that as well. Like
(25:47):
people, we can be different, or
at least embrace and lean into
our differences, yeah, but you
better be damn good at what you
do as well. I
Lea Turner (25:56):
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first policy subject to
eligibility. Now back to the
conversation. So following on
from that, then, I suppose, when
you mentioned, and I'm sure
people, anyone watching, they're
aware you have vitiligo, yeah,
but that didn't start until
later in your life, right? Yeah,
Ash Rathod (27:18):
that didn't start
probably 20. I think it was 2018
or so.
Lea Turner (27:23):
2018 so seven, seven
years ago, you started losing
the pigmentation in your skin,
yeah. And you told me before
this chat that you've always
felt a little bit different,
never, never quite fitted in,
yeah. But now visually, you
don't fit in. How? How did you
find the confidence? Because you
told me that you only started
(27:44):
posting on LinkedIn in 2020,
were you? Were you scared of how
people were going to receive you
when you started posting
publicly, like there must have
been some trepidation. Yeah,
Ash Rathod (27:57):
they I was scared
before the posting. So a lot of
my clients with the agency were
in America. One of my big
clients were in Switzerland,
parts of Asia as well. So even
before COVID And, you know,
everyone started using video
(28:18):
calls for zoom and teams and
things like that, I was using.
We were on video calls a lot
because our clients were abroad.
Yeah, and then when this skin
condition started happening, it
was just Yeah, I went through a
real downer, like it really
affected my mental health and
(28:38):
confidence to the point where I
was not switching off my or
making excuses not to switch on
my camera when talking to
clients. So was
Lea Turner (28:46):
it on your face
straight away? Yeah, it was
Ash Rathod (28:48):
actually, it started
on my eyelashes around my eyes,
and but you, it was slowly
building up, and then you it
was, you know, you can see it,
and I think I probably noticed
it more than probably didn't
even people probably wouldn't
have even told it on camera in
the early stages, but because I
was noticing it became a big
thing, so I just went inwards,
(29:10):
yeah, and I made excuses just to
switch off my camera and and I
got away with it for a while,
until the CMO of the One of the
companies that I worked with.
Said, I've not seen you in a
while. Ash, like, What do you
mean? We have weekly meetings.
And I knew what she meant, and
she said, Well, you never switch
(29:30):
on your cameras, everything, all
right? And that gave me the
permission to talk about it. So
I emailed her, and I told her
exactly what was going on, and
she was so really, really nice
about it, and weirdly enough,
that kind of it gave me enough
confidence. But still, I was
going through this like I don't
(29:50):
want to share with the world. I
was stopping going to social
events, like with friends and
stuff and and I knew that people
I knew from years ago on
LinkedIn, where. It on LinkedIn,
so I didn't want to show myself.
And it got to a point where it
was really affecting me, my
relationships business as well,
because obviously I was avoiding
these calls and meetings. And,
(30:13):
yeah, my wife just said, you
really need to go and see
someone like you need to get
professional help. Yeah, and,
and I just yeah. I've told this
story a few times, but I'll say
it again. I've always been the
type of person that never really
liked to talk about things, and
I don't. I don't see it that
(30:34):
way. Now, I think everyone
should talk to someone about
things and get it out of their
heads. But for me, back then, I
was like, No, I don't want
anyone to talk about it, because
it's going to make the problem
worse for me, and because I'm
just thinking about it a lot.
Anyway, I decided to write about
it. I just thought I knew my
wife was right, and I thought I
(30:54):
just need to write about it. And
in all my wisdom, I chose
LinkedIn to do it and wrote
about it, but I wrote about the
story about my client helping
me, so it was weird that I've
almost I was almost over the
hurdle, but I actually wasn't.
So that first post talked about,
it's all right to be yourself.
(31:14):
It's all right to lean into
yourself, and you didn't quite
believe it. I didn't quite
believe it and but I did get a
little bit of confidence because
of what my client said. And
then, yeah, I posted it. And I
was like, What the hell have I
done? You know, like, this is
LinkedIn, ability, hangover,
yeah, horrible, horrible. I just
(31:35):
didn't. I switched my laptop
off, and I thought, I'm not
Lea Turner (31:38):
gonna, oh my gosh. I
remember posting a video when I
was talking, it was, I think it
was World Suicide Prevention Day
or something like that. And a
mental health charity had asked
me if I'd be willing to talk
about my own experience with
mental health. And I was like,
yeah, yeah, I'll do a I'll do a
post. And I posted a video
talking about my mental health
(32:00):
issues when I was a teenager,
and I remember hitting posts on
it, and I felt like there were
bugs crawling all over my skin.
And I did exact same. Shut my
laptop, went to the to the
living room, sat on the sofa,
which went, oh, oh God, like I
don't want to look I don't want
to see any in the comments. I
don't want to was this before
you got quiet, this was when I
(32:21):
had a quite a lot of followers,
yeah, so I knew that there was
going to be a lot of DMS I
wasn't ready to deal with, and a
lot of comments, either
supportive or this belongs on
Facebook, you know, those. But
it, I knew that it would do
good. And I think I'm always
motivated by doing things that
help others. So I knew that even
(32:41):
though I felt uncomfortable, it
would help others. And I, I'm,
I'm pretty sure you're sort of
similar, you get courage to do
things, because you know that
the outcome is going to be
really positive for other
people, yeah, and then your
discomfort becomes worthwhile.
Ash Rathod (32:56):
Yeah, totally, yeah.
And I didn't realise that it
would help so many people. So
when I did get those comments,
and I did get those DMS talking
about or telling me how much
that story just empowered them,
yeah, I thought it was weird
initially, like, I was like,
really, like, you know, just,
just me doing something for
(33:17):
myself, selfishly, really,
because it felt therapeutic,
yeah, yeah, quite cathartic.
Writing is cathartic like that.
I
Lea Turner (33:26):
feel the exact same
if I can't process something, if
I write about it, and I did it
at the weekend, something was
bugging around my brain. Yeah, I
write it, I feel better about
it. I wonder
Ash Rathod (33:36):
how many of us are
very similar. I think quite a
lot of us like if you, if you
found it, find it hard to
process in your head, and you
actually write it, it just gives
you a different lens all
together on things, and
Lea Turner (33:47):
especially when you
put something out to the world,
because you can kind of turn a
difficult experience into
something positive for other
people, and then it's like,
well, it's worth going through
something difficult if something
positive comes through from it,
even If that positive thing
isn't for me, but then it
becomes the positive thing for
you, because you feel better,
because it's helped other
people. And it's almost like it
(34:08):
neutralises a negative
experience, because now it has a
positive purpose totally and
then I can move on from things,
yeah, and
Ash Rathod (34:15):
what's funny is
like, let's go back to the
business side of things as well,
and also just personal branding.
I had a, I don't know about you,
but I had this, like, allergic
reaction to even the term
personal branding, yeah, oh,
yeah. I just thought, like, it's
so self indulgent, it's quite
egotistical. The whole the fact
(34:36):
that you're branding yourself
the only sacred thing you have
and you want to market yourself
and and I just don't see it that
way. Now. I've just redefined
what personal branding means to
me, and it's it for me, it's
about the people that you're
trying to serve and impact. So
and I'm, I don't know whether
(34:57):
that's just maybe me, but I.
Said this before to you,
probably on off air, that I've
always wanted to shift the
attention to someone else, and
you mentioned that's one of the
reasons why you did it do this
podcast as well, because you
want to kind of shift the light
to someone else. And that's what
we should be doing in business.
We should be customer centric.
(35:17):
Whatever size of business you
are, whether you're a
solopreneur or you're a
corporation, and it's harder for
corporations, actually, and
that's a good thing for your
listeners and your audience,
because you're you're a smaller
ship to turn. And with
corporations that they're very
product centric, they're sales
centric, they're investor
(35:39):
centric, or they're shareholder
centric. We should be customer
centric. We should be customer
obsessed. We should be audience
obsessed. And that's the key, I
think, to figuring out your
brand strategy, the three very
simple questions we ask a
business and we obviously unpack
(36:01):
it in the answers aren't simple,
but it's who you are, what you
do, and why you matter, and why
you matter to them is the
additional part. So if you can
kind of answer that, or go
through a process of exploring
each of those parts, you're
pretty much on your way to
(36:22):
figuring out your brand
strategy.
Lea Turner (36:24):
Yeah, and it says it
comes down to those like shared
values, doesn't it? Because you
can offer the best product ever,
but if the people can't relate
and don't connect with you as a
brand, we'll probably go
somewhere else. It's
Ash Rathod (36:38):
a tribal thing.
Yeah, it's a tribal thing with
companies, and I think that also
extends, or even starts with
individuals as well. There.
There are so many people that
probably do what I do or do what
you do, but there's a certain
type of customer and audience
(36:59):
that will only want to work with
you? Yeah, or, or just like a
magnet they they pull towards
you, you know? Well,
Lea Turner (37:08):
it's like with
friendships, right? You walk
into a pub and you don't know
anybody, and you're going to
find people that stand out to
you in some way. Now, it might
be because they've got brightly
coloured hair and you know, you
you do as well. Or it might be
that they're wearing a football
shirt and you support that team.
Yeah, you gravitate towards
people. You find things in
common with automatically. It
(37:28):
reminded to be or you're
standing at the bar and you
happen to be next to one
another, and you strike up a
conversation. But that person's
only going to, you know, make it
to right? We'll book a book up
and meet at the pub next week as
well. That's only going to
happen if you find things in
common. If you immediately go,
we have nothing in common.
You'll walk up opposite
directions in the pub and carry
(37:48):
on, unite with other people. But
when you find those things in
common, you end up going, Okay,
should we? Should we hang out
again? Yeah, yeah. And that's
exactly the same thing. It's,
it's, so it's finding those bits
in your story that highlight the
values that you have that you
know your clients are, your
ideal clients are going to
respond to. And I do it. I talk
(38:09):
about and and we talked about
this earlier. I noticed, when I
started creating content that
people really respond. Responded
to the content about me and my
son and me being a solo parent,
and it and it created a lot of
connection, and a lot of
messages from other solo moms
going, Oh my gosh. You know, you
give me hope that I can do this
for my child. One day, I'd love
(38:30):
some advice on this, whatever.
And it created, I was building
these relationships with these
wonderful women, and I was like,
Okay, I need to talk about this
more, because not only does it
feel good to me, but it also is
helping other people that I want
to help. Yeah, and so I, I
talked about it more, and you
said you named that an underdog
story, yes, which I don't think
(38:52):
I quite resonated with. But I
get, I get the prospects, sort
of like the rags to riches, the
person that's been told she's
never going to make it. Made it.
Are there some other examples
that are the of types of stories
like that, that you give kind of
quirky names to, that we could
maybe relate to? Yeah,
Ash Rathod (39:09):
well, there's the
rags of rags to riches. A lot of
this comes from Hollywood. So if
you have a look at all film
generally, if you have a look at
different themes that'll go on
in films, there's the rags to
riches. And then there's the
there's the there's the loved
one. But I think, generally, I
think all of these have a common
(39:30):
thread, and it's that thread is
the transformation like a story
can't happen. A store, a story
and an anecdote are totally
different things. Some people
think an anecdote is a story,
but a story has a certain
structure, and that is that it
has a character that desires
(39:52):
something in some shape or form,
and there's a whole there's a
conflict that exists in between
the. That thing that they're
trying to get, and then they
overcome that conflict, and
there's that transformation, and
then there's this new world that
they've entered. And that new
world doesn't just have to be a
(40:12):
physical new world, it could be
an internal New World. So your
story on why it resonated with
me, although I'm not, obviously
a single mom with a young kid in
a different part of the country,
what resonated with me was that
that theme and that
transformation, like, what have
(40:32):
you? What have you achieved? And
why have you done it? Like these
are, these are quite general
human themes. So if you can find
any kind of story that shares
these themes of transformation,
you can you can lean into
something that you know is quite
unique to you, but you can bet
(40:54):
your bottom dollar that it'll
resonate with someone else.
Yeah,
Lea Turner (40:57):
that. I mean, I've
never really considered that,
but I guess you know your
experience with your vitiligo
coming out and feeling like you
couldn't come, come out and be
seen by people because you were
nervous about how you'd been be
received, that was the same for
me. I hid behind a logo on
LinkedIn to start with, and I
was like, oh, no, no one's gonna
(41:17):
take me seriously, because I,
you know my, my instead of
Ash Rathod (41:20):
your actual photo,
you had your logo? Yeah, I had a
business logo
Lea Turner (41:23):
for my original
business because I thought I'd
always been told no one will
take you seriously in business
because you're covered in
tattoos. And I just took that
for you know, that's, that's the
truth. No one's going to take me
seriously. What
Ash Rathod (41:35):
was the impetus?
What was the thing that made you
actually then share the real
you. I
Lea Turner (41:42):
just decided that
LinkedIn was incredibly dry and
boring, and I didn't want to be
there, but I knew I needed to be
there to get clients. So if I
was going to do it, I was going
to make it fun, and if I was
going to make it fun, I needed
to be myself. Yeah, I was like,
sod it like trying to pretend to
be corporate is not going to
work. This feels it
Ash Rathod (41:59):
was there any any
other accounts that inspired you
to let you know if it was dry
and boring, but was there
anyone? There was a few that
Lea Turner (42:07):
were, like, a bit
more personable, but I was
almost like reading them, going,
this is too personal. There was
some of it. And I was like, but
there's no point to this post.
This is just random wafflings
about going to help you as an
audience, yeah. So I didn't
really connect with them, but I
was like, I think I'd posted a
meme. I posted a random, silly
meme that I don't think I even
(42:29):
really meant to post it on
LinkedIn. I probably meant to
post it on my Facebook, but I
remember posting it, and then it
suddenly had 25,000 views in the
space of an hour. And I went,
Oh, humour actually works. I
think it was that that made me
go, actually, if people are
engaging highly with a post
that's not really LinkedIn
appropriate, back in the days
(42:49):
where everyone used to go, this
is Facebook. It's not Facebook,
and it resonates. And I was
like, okay, humour works. I can
be funny. Like, funny is
comfortable for me. Self
deprecating humour, talking
about silly stuff that's
happened in my life that was
comfortable. And I think people
are people who don't spend any
time on LinkedIn have this
illusion that is a very serious
(43:11):
place all of the time, but
that's just because they never
actually like and comment on
content at all, so their
algorithm hasn't learned what
they want to see? Yeah.
Ash Rathod (43:21):
So I think what are
they? Around? About a billion
over a
Lea Turner (43:26):
billion years, only
10% of people actually actively
engage create content or or
leave comments, which is what
that percentage is. I think it's
something like one to 2% are
actually creating content. Low,
yeah, really low, yeah, really
low.
Ash Rathod (43:42):
And, but even then,
like one or three, one to 3% of
a billion, there's still a lot
of people, and still, I don't
see a lot of those people that
still do create content. So
you're always seeing new people,
and you've and they've been
creating content for a long
time. So that side of it is
important. And you know that
(44:03):
engaging with people, I mean,
that's a different story
altogether, isn't it? Like, how?
How do you find the time to
comment and engage with people,
to introduce new people into
your feed? It is, do you have
you done less of it yourself
over time now, because I don't,
Lea Turner (44:23):
I haven't had as
much time to like go out
commenting on other people's to
reply to comments on my own
posts. You know, it's a bit of a
catch. 22 Yes, I got a big
following, but the bigger the
following, the more comments,
the harder it becomes to
actually respond to everybody.
So I do my best. I think one of
the things that people, like
people do understand the the
(44:44):
practicalities of being a solo
mom, trying to juggle running a
business and keep active on on
the platform and within the
community as well as it can be a
little bit overwhelming. But
yeah, I think I
Ash Rathod (44:56):
found, and this is
another, the kind of bro, uh.
Brand strategy tip as well is
the you don't always have to
sell to people, right? Your
audience isn't always going to
be people that buy from you.
They've just got to align with
your stories and values through
(45:18):
stories and they'll be your
ambassadors like
Lea Turner (45:21):
this, that's a key
thing, isn't it? LinkedIn isn't
just about or or social media in
general. It's not just about can
I get clients? It's how many
people know my name and are
going to say my name when
opportunities for me arise. So I
can put myself in 1000s more
rooms by having those
ambassadors out there.
Ash Rathod (45:37):
Yeah, and, and, and,
that's kind of free marketing,
you know, yeah. And I mean an
example when it comes to
business as well. I love the
brand Patagonia. I don't really
wear, or have not really bought
or purchased Patagonia stuff
that much, but I like what they
stand for, you know. And there's
sense loads of companies out
(45:58):
there that I love, what they
stand for and what they do. I
don't really go and purchase
their products, but I will talk
about them, and I will tell
other people about them. So what
Lea Turner (46:08):
you do as a as work,
you know, it's important to read
like I am. I follow beyond me on
threads, yes, yeah. And they are
so funny, their social media
manager, whoever they are, they
are brilliantly funny, the
little the little cow that wears
a cape. And I have bought beyond
meat products in the past, but
I'm not a frequent buyer,
(46:30):
because I'm a bit more committed
to corn and I'm hard to change
my habits. But I've eaten it and
I've enjoyed it. Yeah, me too,
but I will talk about it when
I'm talking about brands that
are really relatable, and so I'm
sort of spreading the the word
of their Yeah, their brand, even
if I'm not an interesting
Ash Rathod (46:48):
thing. I don't know
whether you've noticed this, but
how they position themselves in
supermarkets. So you won't find
them in the plant aisle, or
sometimes you will, but you'll
when they first launched, you
actually found them in the meat
aisle, really? How did they
manage to swing that so right
next to the rest of the meat
because their whole positioning
(47:09):
was the we, we're not actually
targeting vegetarians or vegans.
We're actually targeting meat
eaters who probably want to eat
less meat, yeah, or, I don't
know. Is that the right term,
flexitarians? Yeah, maybe that,
you know, I have one a meat free
day, yeah? And because they're
not preaching to the converted,
they they trying to, you know,
(47:30):
engage with an audience that
actually has never tried
something like that, because
previous products before, just
yeah, it never, ever really
tasted like meat. And they were
here saying, Actually, it'll be
hard to tell the difference.
Lea Turner (47:45):
It's, it's, as
somebody who hasn't eaten meat
in over 20 years, whenever I
have eaten Beyond Meat, it's
quite jarring. It tastes great,
but it tastes so similar. Yeah,
to what I remember meat to taste
like that. There's been I've
gone, is it? Are you sure this
isn't meat? Yeah, because I
can't really remember what meat
(48:05):
tastes like. But when I the
consistency and the flavour is
so close to my memory of it that
I'm it's almost a bit like I I
feel a bit weird, because this
genuinely does feel as close to
me. Yeah? And I'm almost like,
did they send the wrong dish out
in the restaurant. You know,
that's interesting. I've
Ash Rathod (48:24):
never had meat
before. Yeah, I still do like
that, because it's just a
different flavour and a texture
that I've not had, and knowing
that it's also not meat, yeah,
that's, that's, that's really
interesting.
Lea Turner (48:35):
Yeah, it wouldn't
put me off it. It's just that
there have been, I remember
being served it in a restaurant.
I think I was in America, and it
was so close that I just went,
Oh, I think they've given me the
wrong burger. And I was like,
looking at it, thinking, like
this, this looks like me. It
Ash Rathod (48:50):
smells like a beet
rooty Tang, redness, isn't
there? Yeah, it's
Lea Turner (48:55):
quite like unnerving
when it's been that long since
you feed me. I was really
worried that I'd accidentally
got the wrong burger, which has
happened to me before as well.
And that's,
Ash Rathod (49:05):
that's just perfect
positioning. And again, like for
businesses of all sizes, it's
just like doing something
different, like your brand
story, brand story and brand
strategy are very kind of
interrelated. Like, you know
that's, that's what you do.
You're telling a story in a
certain way that hasn't been
(49:26):
told to maybe an underserved
market or or just in a different
way. So the idea is that you
want to move into this white
space, the norms really moved
into, and you're owning that
space, and you're defending that
space, and that's the kind of
things that you want to explore
when you're thinking about you
(49:47):
know your audience, who you want
to serve, but then how
differently can you serve them?
Because they'll always be
someone that does what you do
now, not, very rarely Can you be
a unicorn. Yeah. Anything, but
you can position yourself
differently, or you can tell a
different story and stand out.
And that's the power of story,
(50:07):
and
Lea Turner (50:07):
that's what you've
done, isn't it? In terms of you
know what you do, there are
other people that do it, but
people resonate with your story,
your confidence to be openly and
calm and unashamedly different
in what you do, and it's given,
it's made people connect with
you and and I did the same with
LinkedIn training. There was no
heavily tattooed blonde single
(50:29):
mums like visibly on LinkedIn
being LinkedIn trainers, they
were much more stereotypically
like middle to more retirement
age white corporate guys, and so
I was like, Oh, I'm stand out.
Yeah, that's made me different.
Obviously, I'm not not doing
that anymore, but it was made me
different and made me own it. So
(50:51):
as a sort of parting tip, if I'm
a if I'm a small business owner
who is a little bit fearful
about telling their story, or
are unsure about where to start.
What would be your best tip? I
Ash Rathod (51:07):
think, I think, lean
into the things we've mentioned
it earlier on, leaning into the
things that you think are
ordinary, because everyone
tries, and I'm slightly
contradicting myself when I say
that you want to be radically
different and you want to move
through that differentiation,
and definitely for businesses,
it's true, but the one thing
(51:30):
that we as people over
businesses have is ourselves.
You can really it's as cheesy as
it sounds, but it's so true. Is
the biggest zag is yourself like
you know you can, you can be
yourself at any time. You're,
you're the problem is, is that
(51:53):
you, you just, you just don't
think that that's enough. And we
try hard to be, be something
else, and you almost dilute that
real side of you. So there's
that, there's that one tip is,
yeah, lean into those
differences. And the second tip
is, like, Who are you really
trying to serve do a little bit
of social listening, whether
(52:13):
it's just manually on LinkedIn
or use and this is where AI
really does come into play. And
I do like using AI for this,
there are tools like, I don't
know whether you've heard of
gummy search or idea ape what it
does. It looks ready subgroups,
and it just does the social
listening for you. And then it
(52:34):
comes up with patterns that your
audience or your potential
audiences are talking about or
problems or solutions or pain
points that aren't really
underserved. So that's really,
really important, and we use it
for companies now as well. You
know, we'll, we'll do a little
bit of that research, and we'll
(52:55):
just find out insights, and
like, actually, you know what?
No one's talking about this. We
did a, we did a brand strategy
for a menopausal brand, and it
was weird, because it was three
blokes doing strategy for a
company about menopause. We
didn't really understand it
well, and that was the great
thing, because we it was an
(53:16):
empty canvas for us, as a blank
canvas for us. But we looked at
those Reddit groups and we
realised that there was a voice
that was unheard, and that's
your story. So you know that
story doesn't have to be your
own story, but you should be
able to identify what those
stories are, and if you align
with your values, like a
menopausal brand, we aligned
(53:36):
with it because a lot of us,
well, three of us, had partners.
Well, two of us were going
through the perimenopause stage,
and we didn't really understand
it as partners, you know, and
then we started seeing this, and
we had a different, different
angle on it, and we just
embraced that story, and that
(53:57):
became the narrative for that
brand. So, yeah, it can be your
own story, or it can be someone
else's story, or another group
story that you've not really
discovered, or other brands out
there or other businesses
haven't discovered, but they
align with your values, and you
want to be the champion of that.
(54:17):
And once you are the champion of
that narrative or that story,
people will just come you again.
You'll be a magnet, yeah.
Lea Turner (54:24):
Oh, it's been so
nice chatting with you, Ash.
Thank you so much. This has been
a pleasure. Supporting small
business owners is my biggest
passion, and that's what my
membership community the HoLT is
all about. Inside the HoLT are
more than 150 master classes
from experts in every business
skill you could ever want, and
we add more every single month.
(54:45):
There are also sales clinics,
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(55:06):
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(55:27):
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(55:48):
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I had this like,
(00:00):
allergic reaction to even the
term personal branding, yeah, oh
yeah. I just thought, like it's
so self indulgent, it's quite
egotistical, the fact that
you're branding yourself the
only sacred thing you have, and
you want to market yourself and
and I just don't see it that
way. Now I've just redefined
what personal branding means to
(00:21):
me. For me, it's about the
people that you're trying to
serve and impact. Whether you're
a solopreneur or you're a
corporation. We should be
customer centric. We should be
customer obsessed. We should be
audience obsessed. Yeah, that's
the key, I think, to figuring
out your brand strategy.
Lea Turner (00:52):
Ash Rathod welcome
to The HoLT Survival Guide for
Small Businesses. It is
Ash Rathod (00:57):
an honour and humble
to be here.
Lea Turner (00:59):
I'm well you, before
we came on here, you told me
that you don't do things like
this very often, so I'm really
honoured that you decided to
come and join us today in
Manchester.
Ash Rathod (01:08):
Yeah. I mean, it's I
I've said off air that
Manchester is my second home, so
it's always lovely to be here.
And there's been so many times
where I've had the opportunity
to come and see you, like your
Christmas parties and stuff, and
then just some things come up
and yeah. So it's yeah, it's
lovely to do it after so long,
(01:28):
finally
Lea Turner (01:29):
got there. So before
we get into things, tell us a
little bit about who you are and
what you do. So
Ash Rathod (01:37):
simply, I help
people and businesses tell their
story to help them grow. That's
the That's the very simple
version of it. And if I were to
kind of expand on that, I am a
brand strategist, a storyteller,
and my background has always
(01:59):
been in communications of some
sort. At university, I I fell
into it. Fell in love with
storytelling, and it was more on
the entertainment side of
things. So I did, I did Media
Communications at university and
but specialised in script
writing. So script writing for
TV, film, radio, that sort of
(02:21):
thing. I didn't quite do media
production, but I was more into
the the writing side of things.
And it was just, I don't know
why I fell in love with it. I
think it was just, I love
dialogue. For some reason, I
love people. And, yeah, it's,
it's weird in terms of what I do
now, it's kind of gone full
circle, yeah, and yeah, I fell
(02:45):
into communications. I worked in
TV for a while, thinking that I
get into TV after university, to
get into film, and I just did
all right in sales. So I was
doing TV sales, or media sales,
as it was called then, and I
just did really well. And yeah,
I moved into marketing agencies,
(03:07):
digital marketing, and I found
the actually storytelling just
is important everywhere,
especially in business and
communication. So I kind of
Yeah, I stuck to that, and here
I am. I'm going full circle back
into the actual storytelling
structures and how you tell
(03:29):
stories. And I really focus on
that these days, when I'm
helping people, individuals and
businesses. Were you a reader as
a kid? I read a lot. Yeah, yeah.
I read a I read a lot. I drew a
lot as well, really, yeah, I
loved anything creative, so I
went into music. I went into
(03:50):
writing. Yeah, I had a lot of
brothers. I still have a lot of
brothers, but how many brothers?
So I've got six brothers. Oh my
gosh, six brothers, seven,
including me, yeah, and one
sister that is a that is a big
family. It's a big family. And,
yeah, hats off. Were you? Were
you a quiet one of the family?
(04:10):
Yeah, I think I was one of the
quiet ones. There's a couple of
us are that are quite quiet.
Then there's a few of us that
are really extroverts. And if
anyone sees us in public
together, you want you want to
know we're brothers. We're just
completely different. Yeah, it's
Lea Turner (04:26):
funny, because I was
very studious, as they called
it, as a kid, I would binge
through books. I remember my mum
used to take me to the library,
and she joked she needed to get
me a little cart like Matilda
used to have on the film to
carry all the books back,
because I would just go cover to
cover, multiple books a day, and
she's like, I think you've read
the entire children's section of
the library. You need to now
(04:47):
move on to the teenage section.
But I loved it, and I was
obsessed with how you could
create worlds with words. And
that's what you help people to
do, isn't it? You create, you
help them to convert. Their
world to the rest of the world,
their own story, their own
experiences. Why is that so
important for businesses to
(05:07):
understand and share their brand
story? I
Ash Rathod (05:12):
think it's a way of
connection. I think it's the way
we connect with brands. You
know, there's, there's obviously
the the usual case studies like
Apple and the big companies, the
one have been great at
humanising their brand in themes
like, you know, being the
(05:33):
creator and things like that.
But the fact that you you do
that and you connect with
people. I think that's where
storytelling comes alive. And,
yeah, and I think it's
important. And going back to
your, your point about the the
books, I was exactly the same,
and it was a form of escapism as
well, without probably me not,
(05:54):
not, not really knowing it as a
kid, you, you, you draw yourself
into these books. And there's an
actual term called Narrative
transportation and and it's you
just, yeah, you just get into
this world. And we do it when we
watch movies, and we do it with
brands as well, because it kind
of helps identify, you know,
(06:15):
give you that identity, and it
helps you, I don't know, connect
with a certain tribe as well.
You know, you get your apple
tribes, you get your Android
tribes, you get your Tesla
tribes. You get your, I don't
know, Harry
Lea Turner (06:28):
Potter tribes,
tribes, some of those. Oh, well.
SLM, yeah, there's
Ash Rathod (06:32):
that. There's that a
certain identity. And I think if
as a storyteller, whether you're
a individual or you're or a
business, and you find out what
that tribe is, and what that
tribe's more is, is what Martin
Neumeier talks about, their
values. And you align with them,
you just have a stronger,
(06:52):
stronger brand. Yeah,
Lea Turner (06:54):
one of the things
that I have tried to explain to
people in the past when I've
been working with them on like
LinkedIn training, people have
this kind of assumption that
when we're talking about
personal brand, that we mean you
have to tell everybody
everything about yourself, that
you have to dump everything or
your entire identity out into
the into the public eye. And
(07:15):
that's not true. Actually. It's
about finding the things that
you have in common with people,
and if people can find something
that they have in common with
you, they're going to be more
likely to remember you, and your
story is so much part of that.
And you know, as an example,
people connect with me because
they know I'm a lone parent, or
(07:35):
that I'm a parent of a boy, or
that I like football, or that I
like to travel. And they'll find
these little sections of
commonality, yeah, connect with
me, therefore remember me more,
because they they know that I've
got something in common with
them, so I stand out more in
their brain. And then they
they're more likely to pay
attention to me the next time
(07:55):
they see me and feel closer to
me and trust me more, because
they can relate to something
personal. And the more of those
little strands that you can
create of like connection
between people, the more points
of commonality they can find
with you, the higher the chance
that they're going to remember
you, refer you, want to work
with you. And it just
accelerates that trust. So in
(08:18):
terms of our listeners, let's
say, because we've got,
hopefully, I say, a lot of small
business owners listening to us.
One of the things I've come up
against when it comes to
speaking to small business
owners in in the membership
community and and through
LinkedIn training, is they'll
say they're boring. They'll say,
Yeah, but there's, I'm not a
(08:39):
very interesting person. I'm I'm
just normal. We all think we're
normal. How do you work with
somebody like that to help them
identify those, those important
parts of their story that they
can use to connect with the
right people?
Ash Rathod (08:55):
Yeah, I think I've
said it before. I think I'm
probably the most boring person
ever, but people don't seem to
think so. And I find it amazing
that that one post that I wrote
accidentally, by the way, not
accidentally, but it was more of
a therapeutic post out there. It
(09:17):
just resonated with many people
on many different levels, not
the same details. They didn't
have the skin condition that I
had, but they identified with
themes of being that imposter,
but having that not lack of
confidence. So this is a viral
post that you put up, is it?
Yeah, and that was probably
(09:37):
around about 2020, so probably
about five years ago, I never
used to use LinkedIn that much.
I used it for our clients,
because I own an agency, and now
for the last 15 years, and we
used really LinkedIn for ads and
things like that, but not really
organic content, and definitely
not for personal brands. And
(09:58):
then, yeah, I was just amazed.
How much it resonated with other
people, the amount of not just
the comments and engagement that
I got, but the actual DMS that I
got, private DMS they wouldn't
even want to comment publicly,
but then in the DMS, they've
said things like, I feel like
I've been seen, you know, you've
(10:19):
been able to give me that bit of
confidence to message you and
talk about my things and like,
you know, they talk about and I
was like, God, this is quite
heavy because, you know, it's
quite heavy because, obviously,
I'm not a I'm not a counsellor,
I'm not a therapist. But is it
so heartwarming to see that it's
touched so many people, and
(10:40):
they've, they've not got the
same details as me, you know,
like the vitiligo and stuff. And
then I, yeah, when I started on
LinkedIn, and I started seeing
pockets of people kind of doing
the same thing, and you were
definitely one of them. For me.
You were huge inspiration. And
again, there's that the theme
again, right? There's, there's
that theme again, where me and
(11:01):
you are completely different,
yeah, and different stories all
together, but those themes came
into play where you didn't quite
fit in, and actually now you've
transformed into a different
person, and you've become
confident because of that. And
yeah, I think there's a lesson
for listeners out there, like
you have to. You have to really
(11:22):
lean into that and it, and it
takes, it takes a brave person.
I understand that because I was
exactly the same. But once you
do that, you realise actually
that was a superpower that you
really wanted or you needed, and
not to blend in. And I'll, and
I'll probably reference Martin
(11:42):
Neumeier a few times in this
conversation, but it's the same
with business, like he wrote a
book called the Zag. So the idea
and the premise of that is, when
everyone's zigging, you zag, you
just want to, you want to do be
different enough to be noticed,
but you got to do it honestly as
(12:02):
well. Yeah, and I'm sure we'll
get into it. There's the there's
that other extreme where there's
a very much those contrived post
and they just do it for one
reason only, and that's not the
way, but kind of lean into those
things that you think are boring
about you. You think that
(12:23):
people, oh, already know this as
a business owner as well, with
me and marketing as well. I
talked about things, and I talk
about writing, and I thought
talk about storytelling. I'm not
a writer at all. I'm not a
copywriter, but I know a little
bit. And then when you see
people in your comments and
engaging with you, thinking,
(12:43):
I've learned something you
realise actually, not everyone
knows what you know, and you're
not as boring as you think you
are,
Lea Turner (12:50):
and that's it. Like
the simplest stories can or
certainly, I've, I've
experienced the fact that I tell
super simple story, but it'll
make someone laugh, or make
someone feel good, or make
someone feel a little bit seen.
And I was just doing a master
class for my membership, and we
were talking about, like, funny
stories that you can tell. And
(13:12):
we were talking about, like,
when you end up in the emergency
room, there's inevitably some
sort of we've all ended up in
the emergency room at some point
because of something a bit
embarrassing or funny that's
happened, and we were sort of
relating through humour a lot,
and those funny stories, and
sometimes it can be the most
minute things that you talk
(13:33):
about that don't seem
interesting when you're close
up, but when you sort of step
back a bit and look at it
objectively, you go, actually,
yeah. I suppose that is quite
interesting to other people.
Yeah. I ask other people, if I'm
like, I'm feeling boring and
ordinary, I'll say to other
people, like, what, what do you
think is interesting about me?
Like, is there anything that
(13:54):
makes you go, Oh, that's
different, or that's weird,
yeah, because those, like, the
weird things are usually good
content. I think
Ash Rathod (14:02):
what's interesting
is really weird. It's the
mundane, but the mundane lived
by someone else. Yeah? Because,
and what I mean by that is that
you go through your life and
just doing normal things, and
then when you see other people
doing it in a slightly different
way, yeah, you just think the
one, it's relatable, because
we're exactly the same. And the
(14:23):
second thing is, it's like, fly
on the wall mentality, you know,
when we see the reality shows
and stuff like, What's weird is,
there's the programme in
obviously, the UK, called goggle
box, and it's just people
watching TV.
Lea Turner (14:39):
This is the thing.
It winds me up so much. It's one
of my like my pet peeves is how
popular? And this is such an
unpopular opinion, but goggle
box is literally a TV show where
we are watching other people
watching TV shows. How could
that be? And I'm like, but for
me, it's not. I am not, I don't
(14:59):
like. Vocal box. I'm just like,
why on earth would I spend any
of my life watching other people
watch TV? Watching TV is a waste
of time enough, and I feel
guilty about it, because I'm
always, I need to be busy all
the time. Yeah? But I'm just I
Ash Rathod (15:12):
reality.
Lea Turner (15:15):
I like, Yeah, I do
like the like the island with
Bear Grylls. I used to love
watching like the survival ones
or the race across the world
ones. I find those quite
interesting. But more from a
travel perspective, have you got
into traitors? I did watch the
traitors, but from like a
psychological standpoint, I find
(15:36):
it fascinating to watch that.
And we won't do any spoilers.
Hopefully everyone has seen it
all by now, but, yeah, I've
watched that, and I used to
enjoy Big Brother from that
standpoint, before. It was full
of all like fame, hungry,
desperate, yeah, there was the
original one,
Ash Rathod (15:53):
yeah. And I think to
your point there, the psychology
side of it is just fascinating,
how people behave in different
environments and circumstances.
Yeah, and I think that's that,
again, that's like, you know,
when you tell your stories
online, whether it's about you
on a personal level, or whether
it's about you in a in a work
(16:15):
situation, is just, it's just
interesting. And then people get
involved as well, and that's
great, because everyone has
opinions, and hopefully it still
stays kind of civil, which not
doesn't always happen, but more
so
Lea Turner (16:29):
on LinkedIn than
other social media platforms. I
would say, Yeah, I posted
something on tick tock the other
day of my son playing football,
and they were, they were
literally people in the comment
sections criticising and
insulting, and I'm like, he's a
nine year old boy. Luckily, no
on Tiktok. I find like tiktoks
like the Wild West. I'm not, I
(16:51):
don't think I want to go on
Tiktok. Obviously, I've deleted
the comments and I'm not showing
them to my son, but I'm
thinking, Who are these people
that feel comfortable insulting
a nine year old kid following
their dream. Like, that's why
that is with
Ash Rathod (17:04):
LinkedIn. Is it
because the fact that they can't
you don't really hide?
Lea Turner (17:08):
I think you are
because you've got your real
name, yeah? Because the people
who do it tick tock, YouTube,
Instagram, they always do it
with a fake photo or no photo
and no followers, so it's like a
burner account or something,
yeah? LinkedIn has got your
employer, your colleagues, your
your business attached to it,
yeah, predominantly, you know,
(17:29):
there are people that use fake
profiles, but they're fewer and
further between, yeah. But if it
keeps getting as popular as it
it has been over the last few
years, I imagine that it will
inevitably attract those sorts
of people,
Ash Rathod (17:42):
do you enjoy those?
No, enjoys probably an extreme
word, but when someone disagrees
with you, and they did, they
debate, yeah,
Lea Turner (17:53):
I enjoy intelligent
discourse, yeah, if I'm even if
I'm, you know, I've been on
dates before where we've not
agreed on something, but we've
had a really brilliant
conversation where we're totally
open to other people's opinions.
Then I've also had dates where
I've got walked off because they
won't, won't debate in a civil
(18:16):
and respectful way. Yeah, you
know, and I think LinkedIn
people tend to be less inclined
to sling mud and personal
insults, not always, like I've
had all sorts of things on
there, but a lot less than I
would have done on other
platforms.
Ash Rathod (18:33):
And I think that,
you know, I think that's
important for individuals, but
also for businesses as well. I I
honestly think there's a lot of
people that take the advice be
polarising in the wrong way.
Like polarising doesn't have to
be go out and insult people and
offend. No,
Lea Turner (18:52):
you can be playful
with polarising stuff as well.
Can't you? You can be respectful
and offer an alternative opinion
without criticising others or
without, you know, I am guilty
of it sometimes because I don't
like it when people cheat the
system. I'm very strong sense of
justice so much, and I know
that's something that we agree
on when we see people that are,
(19:13):
you know, over inflating their
metrics and then using that fake
popularity to sell a service,
for example, that makes me quite
frustrated,
Ash Rathod (19:25):
having said that,
the reason why you do that is
because your values are to help
that kind of the small
businesses. And when you've got
people championing that side of
things, that's not going to help
the small business in any way,
shape or form, and it's only
going to put money in those
people's pockets, and
Lea Turner (19:46):
it creates so much
self esteem issues and
comparison itis in these small
business owners going, Well,
hold on a minute. I'm doing
these vapid posts of me holding
a whiteboard with some generic
quote written on it. Why hasn't
mine gone viral? Yeah? Why? Why
is mine terrible? Why does
nobody like me and you're like,
No, babe, there's nothing wrong
with your content, your it's the
(20:06):
fact that you haven't added it
to a engagement pod, or, you
know, got millions of AI
commenters, yeah, yeah, spouting
stuff on it. Why?
Ash Rathod (20:17):
I've always been
interested in in people's
opinions on this. So I'm going
to ask you, why do you think
people are attracted to that?
You know, like when, when they
see these in this engagement,
and they want to know how it's
done, and then they kind of
might realise that they're in
(20:37):
pods, and they actually succumb
to it themselves, and they start
in those pods. I
Lea Turner (20:42):
think some people
think that it is how you do it.
They just because they haven't
been on LinkedIn for very long,
they get sort of sucked into
that. Well, this is just how you
grow. And if you want to get
seen, this is how you do it. And
they'll get people that prey on
them, because it happened to me
when I first started on
LinkedIn, I had a lot of people
messaged me, going, oh, you
know, do you want to join our
(21:03):
engagement group? And I was
like, No, not really, because
you don't really know. I didn't
know what it was, but when they
said to me, Oh, well, you just,
you just comment on people's
posts, I was like, Well, why
would I comment on people's
posts that I don't actually like
that seems weird. Like I only
want to comment on stuff that I
actually enjoy seeing because I
had some awareness of the fact
(21:23):
that algorithms will show me
more of content, like what I've
commented on. So if I'm
commenting on some some
Ash Rathod (21:31):
people don't have
that knowledge, especially
Lea Turner (21:34):
naivety. The people
that I know that have been
sucked into these it's just pure
naivety. And then they go, Oh,
actually, this isn't working.
And it feels weird that I'm
leaving 20 comments on posts
that I don't really understand
or I'm not interested in, and I
feel ick because it's not
genuine. It doesn't it doesn't
feel good for me to leave a
(21:54):
vapid, empty comment just for
the sake of it. And after a few
weeks, they feel that ick deep
inside and go, I don't really
want to do this anymore. This
doesn't feel right, and now my
feed is full of content that I'm
not interested in. So this is
not working for me. But then
there are people that really
just care about what it looks
like to the outside world, yeah,
(22:15):
and those are the people that
will follow it back and
validation, yeah, yeah, yeah,
because it's, it's one of those.
Oh, well, if everybody thinks
I'm popular, then I'm going to
get all these opportunities and
and, to be fair, it does happen.
They do get opportunities
depending
Ash Rathod (22:29):
on what they do,
though, I think as well in terms
of what, what they're trying to
sell themselves, yeah, you know,
so, I mean, I just see it as
fake influence. I just never,
never really understood. Stood
it. I feel like you're also a
you're a slave to the algorithm
in a certain way. And
Lea Turner (22:50):
be honest, having
having that many people
following you and engaging with
you regularly, and you're
supposed to reply to all of
their clients, it's exhausting.
Oh yeah. Energy drain massive.
And the expectations people have
of you, which I still find
strange. Just because you've got
a big following, they expect you
to be something not everybody,
obviously, but they expect you
to be something impressive,
yeah, because you've got this
(23:11):
big following, and you're like,
Well, no, I'm just still
ordinary, yeah, very ordinary.
The
Ash Rathod (23:16):
most important, I
think, out of it all, is that I
think people are becoming a lot
more savvy to it. So when you
see those numbers like and, I
mean, every post gets so many
likes and so much engagement,
the people aren't stupid. Like,
there are people out there that
look at those and think that
(23:37):
that's there's something dodgy
going on there, and that just
kills your credibility. Yeah. So
the the people that you're
actually probably trying to
serve that are ready to spend
with you, they're looking to
look at that and think, No way,
yeah, you know, and you can, you
don't, you don't, well, they'll
spend
Lea Turner (23:51):
with you and realise
that you can't live up to what
the expectations are, because
it's all fake. This is it. This
is and then they're
disappointed. And then you
you've done you're worse off
than when you started, because
actually, you've acquired a
client and disappointed them,
who how many of their friends
are going to now know because
they've gone, oh, well, that
wasn't what I thought it was
going to be. They were really
disappointing. Or it just, it's
(24:11):
just all hype. Yeah, that's so
much worse for you as a brand
than just being honest and
having a small, genuine
following to start with.
Ash Rathod (24:19):
Yeah. One of the
things that we teach in brand
strategy is that the we call it
radical differentiation. So
radical differentiation is just
be really different, like, it's
just you'd be really different
to be be noticed. But there is a
caveat to that is also be really
(24:41):
good. Yeah, right. So, because
there's, you'll see a sea of
sameness, and you'll see the
likes of like from company point
of view, and products, the likes
of liquid death, they look
radically different. Yeah? They
stand for completely different.
They look like a craft beer.
They. Whole communications is
very kind of rebellious, and you
(25:04):
put them, you you put them in a
supermarket line of waters.
You've got vulvix, you've got
the evians, you've got the clear
water, what we call the tribute
bands, like the ones that copy,
the ones that have been doing
well for years, and then comes
along is liquid death looking
different, being different. But
then it also has a has a quite
(25:26):
an important purpose as well. So
I don't know whether you're
aware, but it's liquid death
because they, their villain was
deftly plastic. It's ruining the
earth. So you know where we've
come in cans which are
recyclable, yeah. So it has a
purpose. It's quite rebellious,
and they're doing good so and we
can do that as well. Like
(25:47):
people, we can be different, or
at least embrace and lean into
our differences, yeah, but you
better be damn good at what you
do as well. I
Lea Turner (25:56):
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first policy subject to
eligibility. Now back to the
conversation. So following on
from that, then, I suppose, when
you mentioned, and I'm sure
people, anyone watching, they're
aware you have vitiligo, yeah,
but that didn't start until
later in your life, right? Yeah,
Ash Rathod (27:18):
that didn't start
probably 20. I think it was 2018
or so.
Lea Turner (27:23):
2018 so seven, seven
years ago, you started losing
the pigmentation in your skin,
yeah. And you told me before
this chat that you've always
felt a little bit different,
never, never quite fitted in,
yeah. But now visually, you
don't fit in. How? How did you
find the confidence? Because you
told me that you only started
(27:44):
posting on LinkedIn in 2020,
were you? Were you scared of how
people were going to receive you
when you started posting
publicly, like there must have
been some trepidation. Yeah,
Ash Rathod (27:57):
they I was scared
before the posting. So a lot of
my clients with the agency were
in America. One of my big
clients were in Switzerland,
parts of Asia as well. So even
before COVID And, you know,
everyone started using video
(28:18):
calls for zoom and teams and
things like that, I was using.
We were on video calls a lot
because our clients were abroad.
Yeah, and then when this skin
condition started happening, it
was just Yeah, I went through a
real downer, like it really
affected my mental health and
(28:38):
confidence to the point where I
was not switching off my or
making excuses not to switch on
my camera when talking to
clients. So was
Lea Turner (28:46):
it on your face
straight away? Yeah, it was
Ash Rathod (28:48):
actually, it started
on my eyelashes around my eyes,
and but you, it was slowly
building up, and then you it
was, you know, you can see it,
and I think I probably noticed
it more than probably didn't
even people probably wouldn't
have even told it on camera in
the early stages, but because I
was noticing it became a big
thing, so I just went inwards,
(29:10):
yeah, and I made excuses just to
switch off my camera and and I
got away with it for a while,
until the CMO of the One of the
companies that I worked with.
Said, I've not seen you in a
while. Ash, like, What do you
mean? We have weekly meetings.
And I knew what she meant, and
she said, Well, you never switch
(29:30):
on your cameras, everything, all
right? And that gave me the
permission to talk about it. So
I emailed her, and I told her
exactly what was going on, and
she was so really, really nice
about it, and weirdly enough,
that kind of it gave me enough
confidence. But still, I was
going through this like I don't
(29:50):
want to share with the world. I
was stopping going to social
events, like with friends and
stuff and and I knew that people
I knew from years ago on
LinkedIn, where. It on LinkedIn,
so I didn't want to show myself.
And it got to a point where it
was really affecting me, my
relationships business as well,
because obviously I was avoiding
these calls and meetings. And,
(30:13):
yeah, my wife just said, you
really need to go and see
someone like you need to get
professional help. Yeah, and,
and I just yeah. I've told this
story a few times, but I'll say
it again. I've always been the
type of person that never really
liked to talk about things, and
I don't. I don't see it that
(30:34):
way. Now, I think everyone
should talk to someone about
things and get it out of their
heads. But for me, back then, I
was like, No, I don't want
anyone to talk about it, because
it's going to make the problem
worse for me, and because I'm
just thinking about it a lot.
Anyway, I decided to write about
it. I just thought I knew my
wife was right, and I thought I
(30:54):
just need to write about it. And
in all my wisdom, I chose
LinkedIn to do it and wrote
about it, but I wrote about the
story about my client helping
me, so it was weird that I've
almost I was almost over the
hurdle, but I actually wasn't.
So that first post talked about,
it's all right to be yourself.
(31:14):
It's all right to lean into
yourself, and you didn't quite
believe it. I didn't quite
believe it and but I did get a
little bit of confidence because
of what my client said. And
then, yeah, I posted it. And I
was like, What the hell have I
done? You know, like, this is
LinkedIn, ability, hangover,
yeah, horrible, horrible. I just
(31:35):
didn't. I switched my laptop
off, and I thought, I'm not
Lea Turner (31:38):
gonna, oh my gosh. I
remember posting a video when I
was talking, it was, I think it
was World Suicide Prevention Day
or something like that. And a
mental health charity had asked
me if I'd be willing to talk
about my own experience with
mental health. And I was like,
yeah, yeah, I'll do a I'll do a
post. And I posted a video
talking about my mental health
(32:00):
issues when I was a teenager,
and I remember hitting posts on
it, and I felt like there were
bugs crawling all over my skin.
And I did exact same. Shut my
laptop, went to the to the
living room, sat on the sofa,
which went, oh, oh God, like I
don't want to look I don't want
to see any in the comments. I
don't want to was this before
you got quiet, this was when I
(32:21):
had a quite a lot of followers,
yeah, so I knew that there was
going to be a lot of DMS I
wasn't ready to deal with, and a
lot of comments, either
supportive or this belongs on
Facebook, you know, those. But
it, I knew that it would do
good. And I think I'm always
motivated by doing things that
help others. So I knew that even
(32:41):
though I felt uncomfortable, it
would help others. And I, I'm,
I'm pretty sure you're sort of
similar, you get courage to do
things, because you know that
the outcome is going to be
really positive for other
people, yeah, and then your
discomfort becomes worthwhile.
Ash Rathod (32:56):
Yeah, totally, yeah.
And I didn't realise that it
would help so many people. So
when I did get those comments,
and I did get those DMS talking
about or telling me how much
that story just empowered them,
yeah, I thought it was weird
initially, like, I was like,
really, like, you know, just,
just me doing something for
(33:17):
myself, selfishly, really,
because it felt therapeutic,
yeah, yeah, quite cathartic.
Writing is cathartic like that.
I
Lea Turner (33:26):
feel the exact same
if I can't process something, if
I write about it, and I did it
at the weekend, something was
bugging around my brain. Yeah, I
write it, I feel better about
it. I wonder
Ash Rathod (33:36):
how many of us are
very similar. I think quite a
lot of us like if you, if you
found it, find it hard to
process in your head, and you
actually write it, it just gives
you a different lens all
together on things, and
Lea Turner (33:47):
especially when you
put something out to the world,
because you can kind of turn a
difficult experience into
something positive for other
people, and then it's like,
well, it's worth going through
something difficult if something
positive comes through from it,
even If that positive thing
isn't for me, but then it
becomes the positive thing for
you, because you feel better,
because it's helped other
people. And it's almost like it
(34:08):
neutralises a negative
experience, because now it has a
positive purpose totally and
then I can move on from things,
yeah, and
Ash Rathod (34:15):
what's funny is
like, let's go back to the
business side of things as well,
and also just personal branding.
I had a, I don't know about you,
but I had this, like, allergic
reaction to even the term
personal branding, yeah, oh,
yeah. I just thought, like, it's
so self indulgent, it's quite
egotistical. The whole the fact
(34:36):
that you're branding yourself
the only sacred thing you have
and you want to market yourself
and and I just don't see it that
way. Now. I've just redefined
what personal branding means to
me, and it's it for me, it's
about the people that you're
trying to serve and impact. So
and I'm, I don't know whether
(34:57):
that's just maybe me, but I.
Said this before to you,
probably on off air, that I've
always wanted to shift the
attention to someone else, and
you mentioned that's one of the
reasons why you did it do this
podcast as well, because you
want to kind of shift the light
to someone else. And that's what
we should be doing in business.
We should be customer centric.
(35:17):
Whatever size of business you
are, whether you're a
solopreneur or you're a
corporation, and it's harder for
corporations, actually, and
that's a good thing for your
listeners and your audience,
because you're you're a smaller
ship to turn. And with
corporations that they're very
product centric, they're sales
centric, they're investor
(35:39):
centric, or they're shareholder
centric. We should be customer
centric. We should be customer
obsessed. We should be audience
obsessed. And that's the key, I
think, to figuring out your
brand strategy, the three very
simple questions we ask a
business and we obviously unpack
(36:01):
it in the answers aren't simple,
but it's who you are, what you
do, and why you matter, and why
you matter to them is the
additional part. So if you can
kind of answer that, or go
through a process of exploring
each of those parts, you're
pretty much on your way to
(36:22):
figuring out your brand
strategy.
Lea Turner (36:24):
Yeah, and it says it
comes down to those like shared
values, doesn't it? Because you
can offer the best product ever,
but if the people can't relate
and don't connect with you as a
brand, we'll probably go
somewhere else. It's
Ash Rathod (36:38):
a tribal thing.
Yeah, it's a tribal thing with
companies, and I think that also
extends, or even starts with
individuals as well. There.
There are so many people that
probably do what I do or do what
you do, but there's a certain
type of customer and audience
(36:59):
that will only want to work with
you? Yeah, or, or just like a
magnet they they pull towards
you, you know? Well,
Lea Turner (37:08):
it's like with
friendships, right? You walk
into a pub and you don't know
anybody, and you're going to
find people that stand out to
you in some way. Now, it might
be because they've got brightly
coloured hair and you know, you
you do as well. Or it might be
that they're wearing a football
shirt and you support that team.
Yeah, you gravitate towards
people. You find things in
common with automatically. It
(37:28):
reminded to be or you're
standing at the bar and you
happen to be next to one
another, and you strike up a
conversation. But that person's
only going to, you know, make it
to right? We'll book a book up
and meet at the pub next week as
well. That's only going to
happen if you find things in
common. If you immediately go,
we have nothing in common.
You'll walk up opposite
directions in the pub and carry
(37:48):
on, unite with other people. But
when you find those things in
common, you end up going, Okay,
should we? Should we hang out
again? Yeah, yeah. And that's
exactly the same thing. It's,
it's, so it's finding those bits
in your story that highlight the
values that you have that you
know your clients are, your
ideal clients are going to
respond to. And I do it. I talk
(38:09):
about and and we talked about
this earlier. I noticed, when I
started creating content that
people really respond. Responded
to the content about me and my
son and me being a solo parent,
and it and it created a lot of
connection, and a lot of
messages from other solo moms
going, Oh my gosh. You know, you
give me hope that I can do this
for my child. One day, I'd love
(38:30):
some advice on this, whatever.
And it created, I was building
these relationships with these
wonderful women, and I was like,
Okay, I need to talk about this
more, because not only does it
feel good to me, but it also is
helping other people that I want
to help. Yeah, and so I, I
talked about it more, and you
said you named that an underdog
story, yes, which I don't think
(38:52):
I quite resonated with. But I
get, I get the prospects, sort
of like the rags to riches, the
person that's been told she's
never going to make it. Made it.
Are there some other examples
that are the of types of stories
like that, that you give kind of
quirky names to, that we could
maybe relate to? Yeah,
Ash Rathod (39:09):
well, there's the
rags of rags to riches. A lot of
this comes from Hollywood. So if
you have a look at all film
generally, if you have a look at
different themes that'll go on
in films, there's the rags to
riches. And then there's the
there's the there's the loved
one. But I think, generally, I
think all of these have a common
(39:30):
thread, and it's that thread is
the transformation like a story
can't happen. A store, a story
and an anecdote are totally
different things. Some people
think an anecdote is a story,
but a story has a certain
structure, and that is that it
has a character that desires
(39:52):
something in some shape or form,
and there's a whole there's a
conflict that exists in between
the. That thing that they're
trying to get, and then they
overcome that conflict, and
there's that transformation, and
then there's this new world that
they've entered. And that new
world doesn't just have to be a
(40:12):
physical new world, it could be
an internal New World. So your
story on why it resonated with
me, although I'm not, obviously
a single mom with a young kid in
a different part of the country,
what resonated with me was that
that theme and that
transformation, like, what have
(40:32):
you? What have you achieved? And
why have you done it? Like these
are, these are quite general
human themes. So if you can find
any kind of story that shares
these themes of transformation,
you can you can lean into
something that you know is quite
unique to you, but you can bet
(40:54):
your bottom dollar that it'll
resonate with someone else.
Yeah,
Lea Turner (40:57):
that. I mean, I've
never really considered that,
but I guess you know your
experience with your vitiligo
coming out and feeling like you
couldn't come, come out and be
seen by people because you were
nervous about how you'd been be
received, that was the same for
me. I hid behind a logo on
LinkedIn to start with, and I
was like, oh, no, no one's gonna
(41:17):
take me seriously, because I,
you know my, my instead of
Ash Rathod (41:20):
your actual photo,
you had your logo? Yeah, I had a
business logo
Lea Turner (41:23):
for my original
business because I thought I'd
always been told no one will
take you seriously in business
because you're covered in
tattoos. And I just took that
for you know, that's, that's the
truth. No one's going to take me
seriously. What
Ash Rathod (41:35):
was the impetus?
What was the thing that made you
actually then share the real
you. I
Lea Turner (41:42):
just decided that
LinkedIn was incredibly dry and
boring, and I didn't want to be
there, but I knew I needed to be
there to get clients. So if I
was going to do it, I was going
to make it fun, and if I was
going to make it fun, I needed
to be myself. Yeah, I was like,
sod it like trying to pretend to
be corporate is not going to
work. This feels it
Ash Rathod (41:59):
was there any any
other accounts that inspired you
to let you know if it was dry
and boring, but was there
anyone? There was a few that
Lea Turner (42:07):
were, like, a bit
more personable, but I was
almost like reading them, going,
this is too personal. There was
some of it. And I was like, but
there's no point to this post.
This is just random wafflings
about going to help you as an
audience, yeah. So I didn't
really connect with them, but I
was like, I think I'd posted a
meme. I posted a random, silly
meme that I don't think I even
(42:29):
really meant to post it on
LinkedIn. I probably meant to
post it on my Facebook, but I
remember posting it, and then it
suddenly had 25,000 views in the
space of an hour. And I went,
Oh, humour actually works. I
think it was that that made me
go, actually, if people are
engaging highly with a post
that's not really LinkedIn
appropriate, back in the days
(42:49):
where everyone used to go, this
is Facebook. It's not Facebook,
and it resonates. And I was
like, okay, humour works. I can
be funny. Like, funny is
comfortable for me. Self
deprecating humour, talking
about silly stuff that's
happened in my life that was
comfortable. And I think people
are people who don't spend any
time on LinkedIn have this
illusion that is a very serious
(43:11):
place all of the time, but
that's just because they never
actually like and comment on
content at all, so their
algorithm hasn't learned what
they want to see? Yeah.
Ash Rathod (43:21):
So I think what are
they? Around? About a billion
over a
Lea Turner (43:26):
billion years, only
10% of people actually actively
engage create content or or
leave comments, which is what
that percentage is. I think it's
something like one to 2% are
actually creating content. Low,
yeah, really low, yeah, really
low.
Ash Rathod (43:42):
And, but even then,
like one or three, one to 3% of
a billion, there's still a lot
of people, and still, I don't
see a lot of those people that
still do create content. So
you're always seeing new people,
and you've and they've been
creating content for a long
time. So that side of it is
important. And you know that
(44:03):
engaging with people, I mean,
that's a different story
altogether, isn't it? Like, how?
How do you find the time to
comment and engage with people,
to introduce new people into
your feed? It is, do you have
you done less of it yourself
over time now, because I don't,
Lea Turner (44:23):
I haven't had as
much time to like go out
commenting on other people's to
reply to comments on my own
posts. You know, it's a bit of a
catch. 22 Yes, I got a big
following, but the bigger the
following, the more comments,
the harder it becomes to
actually respond to everybody.
So I do my best. I think one of
the things that people, like
people do understand the the
(44:44):
practicalities of being a solo
mom, trying to juggle running a
business and keep active on on
the platform and within the
community as well as it can be a
little bit overwhelming. But
yeah, I think I
Ash Rathod (44:56):
found, and this is
another, the kind of bro, uh.
Brand strategy tip as well is
the you don't always have to
sell to people, right? Your
audience isn't always going to
be people that buy from you.
They've just got to align with
your stories and values through
(45:18):
stories and they'll be your
ambassadors like
Lea Turner (45:21):
this, that's a key
thing, isn't it? LinkedIn isn't
just about or or social media in
general. It's not just about can
I get clients? It's how many
people know my name and are
going to say my name when
opportunities for me arise. So I
can put myself in 1000s more
rooms by having those
ambassadors out there.
Ash Rathod (45:37):
Yeah, and, and, and,
that's kind of free marketing,
you know, yeah. And I mean an
example when it comes to
business as well. I love the
brand Patagonia. I don't really
wear, or have not really bought
or purchased Patagonia stuff
that much, but I like what they
stand for, you know. And there's
sense loads of companies out
(45:58):
there that I love, what they
stand for and what they do. I
don't really go and purchase
their products, but I will talk
about them, and I will tell
other people about them. So what
Lea Turner (46:08):
you do as a as work,
you know, it's important to read
like I am. I follow beyond me on
threads, yes, yeah. And they are
so funny, their social media
manager, whoever they are, they
are brilliantly funny, the
little the little cow that wears
a cape. And I have bought beyond
meat products in the past, but
I'm not a frequent buyer,
(46:30):
because I'm a bit more committed
to corn and I'm hard to change
my habits. But I've eaten it and
I've enjoyed it. Yeah, me too,
but I will talk about it when
I'm talking about brands that
are really relatable, and so I'm
sort of spreading the the word
of their Yeah, their brand, even
if I'm not an interesting
Ash Rathod (46:48):
thing. I don't know
whether you've noticed this, but
how they position themselves in
supermarkets. So you won't find
them in the plant aisle, or
sometimes you will, but you'll
when they first launched, you
actually found them in the meat
aisle, really? How did they
manage to swing that so right
next to the rest of the meat
because their whole positioning
(47:09):
was the we, we're not actually
targeting vegetarians or vegans.
We're actually targeting meat
eaters who probably want to eat
less meat, yeah, or, I don't
know. Is that the right term,
flexitarians? Yeah, maybe that,
you know, I have one a meat free
day, yeah? And because they're
not preaching to the converted,
they they trying to, you know,
(47:30):
engage with an audience that
actually has never tried
something like that, because
previous products before, just
yeah, it never, ever really
tasted like meat. And they were
here saying, Actually, it'll be
hard to tell the difference.
Lea Turner (47:45):
It's, it's, as
somebody who hasn't eaten meat
in over 20 years, whenever I
have eaten Beyond Meat, it's
quite jarring. It tastes great,
but it tastes so similar. Yeah,
to what I remember meat to taste
like that. There's been I've
gone, is it? Are you sure this
isn't meat? Yeah, because I
can't really remember what meat
(48:05):
tastes like. But when I the
consistency and the flavour is
so close to my memory of it that
I'm it's almost a bit like I I
feel a bit weird, because this
genuinely does feel as close to
me. Yeah? And I'm almost like,
did they send the wrong dish out
in the restaurant. You know,
that's interesting. I've
Ash Rathod (48:24):
never had meat
before. Yeah, I still do like
that, because it's just a
different flavour and a texture
that I've not had, and knowing
that it's also not meat, yeah,
that's, that's, that's really
interesting.
Lea Turner (48:35):
Yeah, it wouldn't
put me off it. It's just that
there have been, I remember
being served it in a restaurant.
I think I was in America, and it
was so close that I just went,
Oh, I think they've given me the
wrong burger. And I was like,
looking at it, thinking, like
this, this looks like me. It
Ash Rathod (48:50):
smells like a beet
rooty Tang, redness, isn't
there? Yeah, it's
Lea Turner (48:55):
quite like unnerving
when it's been that long since
you feed me. I was really
worried that I'd accidentally
got the wrong burger, which has
happened to me before as well.
And that's,
Ash Rathod (49:05):
that's just perfect
positioning. And again, like for
businesses of all sizes, it's
just like doing something
different, like your brand
story, brand story and brand
strategy are very kind of
interrelated. Like, you know
that's, that's what you do.
You're telling a story in a
certain way that hasn't been
(49:26):
told to maybe an underserved
market or or just in a different
way. So the idea is that you
want to move into this white
space, the norms really moved
into, and you're owning that
space, and you're defending that
space, and that's the kind of
things that you want to explore
when you're thinking about you
(49:47):
know your audience, who you want
to serve, but then how
differently can you serve them?
Because they'll always be
someone that does what you do
now, not, very rarely Can you be
a unicorn. Yeah. Anything, but
you can position yourself
differently, or you can tell a
different story and stand out.
And that's the power of story,
(50:07):
and
Lea Turner (50:07):
that's what you've
done, isn't it? In terms of you
know what you do, there are
other people that do it, but
people resonate with your story,
your confidence to be openly and
calm and unashamedly different
in what you do, and it's given,
it's made people connect with
you and and I did the same with
LinkedIn training. There was no
heavily tattooed blonde single
(50:29):
mums like visibly on LinkedIn
being LinkedIn trainers, they
were much more stereotypically
like middle to more retirement
age white corporate guys, and so
I was like, Oh, I'm stand out.
Yeah, that's made me different.
Obviously, I'm not not doing
that anymore, but it was made me
different and made me own it. So
(50:51):
as a sort of parting tip, if I'm
a if I'm a small business owner
who is a little bit fearful
about telling their story, or
are unsure about where to start.
What would be your best tip? I
Ash Rathod (51:07):
think, I think, lean
into the things we've mentioned
it earlier on, leaning into the
things that you think are
ordinary, because everyone
tries, and I'm slightly
contradicting myself when I say
that you want to be radically
different and you want to move
through that differentiation,
and definitely for businesses,
it's true, but the one thing
(51:30):
that we as people over
businesses have is ourselves.
You can really it's as cheesy as
it sounds, but it's so true. Is
the biggest zag is yourself like
you know you can, you can be
yourself at any time. You're,
you're the problem is, is that
(51:53):
you, you just, you just don't
think that that's enough. And we
try hard to be, be something
else, and you almost dilute that
real side of you. So there's
that, there's that one tip is,
yeah, lean into those
differences. And the second tip
is, like, Who are you really
trying to serve do a little bit
of social listening, whether
(52:13):
it's just manually on LinkedIn
or use and this is where AI
really does come into play. And
I do like using AI for this,
there are tools like, I don't
know whether you've heard of
gummy search or idea ape what it
does. It looks ready subgroups,
and it just does the social
listening for you. And then it
(52:34):
comes up with patterns that your
audience or your potential
audiences are talking about or
problems or solutions or pain
points that aren't really
underserved. So that's really,
really important, and we use it
for companies now as well. You
know, we'll, we'll do a little
bit of that research, and we'll
(52:55):
just find out insights, and
like, actually, you know what?
No one's talking about this. We
did a, we did a brand strategy
for a menopausal brand, and it
was weird, because it was three
blokes doing strategy for a
company about menopause. We
didn't really understand it
well, and that was the great
thing, because we it was an
(53:16):
empty canvas for us, as a blank
canvas for us. But we looked at
those Reddit groups and we
realised that there was a voice
that was unheard, and that's
your story. So you know that
story doesn't have to be your
own story, but you should be
able to identify what those
stories are, and if you align
with your values, like a
menopausal brand, we aligned
(53:36):
with it because a lot of us,
well, three of us, had partners.
Well, two of us were going
through the perimenopause stage,
and we didn't really understand
it as partners, you know, and
then we started seeing this, and
we had a different, different
angle on it, and we just
embraced that story, and that
(53:57):
became the narrative for that
brand. So, yeah, it can be your
own story, or it can be someone
else's story, or another group
story that you've not really
discovered, or other brands out
there or other businesses
haven't discovered, but they
align with your values, and you
want to be the champion of that.
(54:17):
And once you are the champion of
that narrative or that story,
people will just come you again.
You'll be a magnet, yeah.
Lea Turner (54:24):
Oh, it's been so
nice chatting with you, Ash.
Thank you so much. This has been
a pleasure. Supporting small
business owners is my biggest
passion, and that's what my
membership community the HoLT is
all about. Inside the HoLT are
more than 150 master classes
from experts in every business
skill you could ever want, and
we add more every single month.
(54:45):
There are also sales clinics,
tech clinics, well being support
and advice and discounts on a
huge range of software and
services. But it's so much more
than just trainings and
resources. Everyone inside the
HoLT shares their years of
knowledge and experience
generously with kind. This and
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buzzing, and it's like having
600 business cheerleaders in
your pocket willing you to
succeed and helping you wherever
they can. And we offer all of
this and much more at an
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know that budgets are tight when
you're bootstrapping a business,
the HoLT is a kind, inclusive
and non judgmental place where
everyone knows that working
(55:27):
together is the fastest way to
succeed, and it makes it a whole
lot more fun. We would love for
you to join us. You can check
out the full details on the
dash, halt.com or if communities
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just want access to the hundreds
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(55:48):
can access the vault right now
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Visit the- holt.com/vault to
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