December 2, 2024 • 47 mins
Be honest, do you really show up as the real you to work?
Truly, unconditionally you?
If there is even the tiniest niggle of doubt that you are, you need Michelle Hartley in your life.
She took her beige corporate life and binned it, then stepped into the full kaleidoscopic, colourful brilliance of who she really is. In this episode I talk to Michelle about her transformative journey from a conventional corporate HR role to a vibrant, authentic HR coach.
She shares the joy authenticity in business brings and how she overcame imposter syndrome. She also gives incredible tips to anyone using LinkedIn to find their ideal clients and how to create fun, memorable and engaging content.
Michelle is a beacon of rainbow coloured light in a land of business beige, listen to find out how you can work and live as who you truly are.
And love yourself for it!
“Whatever brings me joy is what I do”– Michelle
You’ll hear about:
00:00 – Being yourself is the biggest win
00:48 - An introduction into Michelle
03:33 - How Michelle went from beige to brilliant
05:09 - Quitting corporate into nothing
09:08 - How Michelle got her first clients
11:59 - How to navigate rejection from clients
16:20 - How Michelle passes on confidence to others
21:03 - Choosing business ideas that are right for you
28:53 - Michelle's advice to use LinkedIn better
33:12 - Create content to become a lighthouse
37:03 - How Michelle got brave on video
41:06 – Michelle’s transformative business advice
Connect with Michelle:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/michellehartleyfinderofawesome/
People Sorted - https://peoplesorted.co.uk/
Connect with me:
The HoLT - https://www.the-holt.com/
My website - https://leaturner.co.uk/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/lea-turner/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/leaturnerholt
Join The Holt waiting list - https://www.the-holt.com/waitlist
This podcast is sponsored bySafe Space From The Workplace. You can check out their podcast here - https://shorturl.at/IASSn
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michelle Hartley (00:00):
I think just being myself has been the
(00:03):
biggest win, and I think that'sjust come through that evolution
of, like, corporate to and
Lea Turner (00:08):
has it leaked out into other parts of your life?
Oh, 100%
Michelle Hartley (00:11):
Yeah. Like, my husband hates it.
Unknown (00:14):
Neither. You were never this sassy when you're in
corporate.
Michelle Hartley (00:18):
And he's also, like, I really liked it when you
wore navy. Okay, well, as I'mlike setting fire to all my navy
seats in the garden, but yeah,so it does come out everywhere
else, because now I'm more meeverywhere. So it means that
I've got more energy, I'm morerelaxed, I'm more comfortable in
my own skin. I
Lea Turner (00:47):
Michelle Hartley, welcome to the Holt Survival
Guide for small businesses.
Michelle Hartley (00:51):
Thank you very much.
Lea Turner (00:52):
Can I ask you to give the audience a little bit
of an intro into who you are andhow we came to get here today?
Yes, so
Michelle Hartley (01:00):
Well, the short answer is, I basically
just muck about on LinkedIn. Thelonger same thing inspired. The
longer answer is, I work with HRpeople, and I basically
transform HR teams from beige tobrilliant, and I do that in a
number of different ways. So Ido coaching, I do training. I've
got an amazing course calledFind your awesome I also run a
(01:21):
little community called the HRGeek Squad, still coming down
from an event last Friday, andthen any kind of bespoke
training that clients want me todo around leadership and
management side of things. Andone
Lea Turner (01:31):
of the things I love about you and your brand that
has literally evolved before theeyes of the LinkedIn community
over the last few years, if youis you have yourself gone from
great beige to brilliant likeyou, you literally have and you,
you've admit yourself that youwere a very beige HR person. And
obviously we're not tiring theentire HR industry with the
(01:53):
beige brush, but there's a goodportion of them that are, and
they are. There are people thatI've worked with that have very
much felt that they had to bethat version of themselves when
they were working for companies,corporates and within HR. And
you've totally broken the moldwith it, but it's not always
been like that for you when youfirst started out in business. I
(02:14):
know you wanted and I know allof this because we worked
together one to one, and youwere still in your semi beige
era at that point. Yeah. Butpoint, turned into the human
rainbow that you are now. And Iremember working with you, and
there was that trepidation of ofmaybe you didn't really know who
Michelle outside of corporatewas yet, and you've really,
(02:37):
really evolved that as you'vestepped into your own business
and embraced what makes youdifferent from other people in
HR, and it took a lot ofpersonal growth and confidence
building for you to get that andit's still ongoing. And every
single year, you become morebold, more brilliant, more wacky
(02:58):
in the content that you create.But it really resonates with
people, because there seems tobe a great deal of of direction
with HR, where people want tobring themselves to it. They
don't want to feel and I see itwith like the insurance
industry, the financialindustry, the legal sector, they
all feel very much like theyneed to be this cookie cutter
version, and you've totallybroke them all, and you're
(03:21):
leading the way for other peoplewithin HR, you've become like a
beacon of of authenticity. Ihate that word, you know, we
both hate that word, but, butauthenticity and being able to
bring your weird, wonderful selfto the fore and use it for your
brand. But how did you go fromfrom beige to brilliant
(03:41):
yourself, like, what? What wasthat journey that you went on
from because you were in a jobthat you really weren't happy
in, right? And so what happenedwhen you left that and and how
did you find your own voice andyour own individuality? Yeah,
Michelle Hartley (03:56):
I think I've always had, you'll be
unsurprised here. I've alwayshad a personality, so even when
I was dressed in the beigeattire, I was always known as,
like the HR person that wouldtell it like it is, or that
would kind of tell
Lea Turner (04:10):
you, so the exterior didn't really go with the
internet. Yeah,
Michelle Hartley (04:13):
exactly. And I always say that my the period of
burnout that I had kind of awokeme to hang on a minute. Why have
I been masking and wasting allof this energy, this precious
energy of mine that I've justlost for eight weeks? Why have I
been wasting it trying to besomeone that I'm not like? It
just suddenly was a massivelight bulb moment as was coming
(04:34):
through that period of burnout,and that's when I was still in
corporate, went back to workbecause I had to be the pioneer
of showing everybody how HRreally works in real life. And
you can go back and you can useoccupational health, and you can
have a phased return. So I putmyself in this weird position
where I had to be the pioneerand the champion of doing the
right thing. And it was reallyhard, but I went back and
(04:56):
within, I don't know, three orfour weeks I was done. I just.
Knew that it wasn't right, and Icouldn't keep doing it to
myself. So that was when Ithought I'm gonna go. So handed
my resignation with the fullview of like, I'm off See you
later. I'll be gone by May. Andthen that was 2020
Lea Turner (05:13):
and you didn't have a job to go to, you hopped out.
Yeah, then COVID hit. Yes,that's not the best timing, is
it?
Michelle Hartley (05:22):
I mean, yeah, if I could, I could plan it
again. Probably wouldn't do itthat way, but yeah, so yeah,
COVID hit, so then I stayed evenlonger than I intended to,
because in my, like, inner core,I couldn't leave the
organization in that scenario.It just felt wrong. So I stayed,
and that was really hard. And Ithink for a lot of HR pros,
burnout happened in COVID. Sothat was almost burnout number
(05:43):
two. And,
Lea Turner (05:44):
I mean, it's completely understandable,
right? The stress and thepressure that must have been on
HR, particularly when you'rejuggling all of the I mean,
there's so many people suddenlyworking from home and having all
these extra anxieties involved,and juggling so much more, I can
imagine that pressure on any HRperson must have been
unbelievable,
Michelle Hartley (06:04):
like off the hiss, and even things like, you
know, understanding medicalterms, understanding legal
jargon, like furlough did notexist before 2020 in the UK, and
so understanding what it allmeant and how it's going to
work, and then translating itdown to the organization like it
was carnage. So that was sort ofburnout number two. And then
came away from that, and justthought, right, I'm going to
(06:24):
just have a break, and then I'mgoing to go back to corporate.
And that was always my plans.I'm going to find my next
corporate job and just do thenext corporate thing. And as I
got and I had good traction,good interviews, good chats,
lots of stuff happening, butnone of them set me a fire,
like, none of them made me like,want to do it. I just kept
thinking, Well, yeah, I can dothat. Yeah, that's the same set
(06:45):
of tools, just in a newlocation. You know, it's just a
bit like, yeah, I can do it, butI don't want you. And so that's
when I sort of started to think,maybe there's something else.
And ended up meeting another HRconsultant who was like, we're
just chatting. And I just said,if you've got any corporate
roles, let me know. And shesaid, why don't you just come
and work? Don't you just comework for me for a bit, see what
you want to do. Because I wasdoing loads of Canva, designing
(07:07):
stuff for my mates on the side,and you're so good at it, I love
it so much. And so I was like,maybe this is my biz. Maybe my
biz is Canva for HR people.Because all I was seeing online
was boring, AF posts that theygrabbed off Google Images. It
were blurry, horrible. Stopphotos. I was like, I can do
better than that. So for a fewmates, I was doing it. Then she
(07:27):
said, come and work with me fora bit as an associate, which I
did. And then some of it, I waslike, on I hate this. This isn't
for me. And other bits. I waslike, Oh, my god, that's
amazing. So when we started totraining and stuff, it was like
a light come down from the sky.I was like, Oh, that was my
thing. And then it kind of allwent from there, because as I
(07:48):
started to do more training, Istarted to be more me, you know,
rather than just for example,like running her slides and
talking about her stuff, Istarted to interject with, oh,
well, when I delivered this,this is what it looked like. Or,
you know, in my real world ofHR, here's how it landed, and
suddenly people were lapping itup. And I thought, Oh, hang on,
there's a market here. Yeah,this is a thing like real life,
actual training that'sinteresting, engaging and fun.
(08:10):
Oh,
Lea Turner (08:11):
I mean, that's, that's something that's a
struggle across the board, isn'tit? And I've heard it myself
when I'm delivering LinkedIntraining. You know, someone a
company, says you need to comein today, we're doing LinkedIn
training, and they're expecting,you know, 50 year old Colin,
who's balding and in a blue soit's Colin, and then I come in
and they go, yeah, oh, hold on aminute. And I deliver it
(08:32):
completely differently, and in away that is fun and relatable
and engaging. I wasn't sure whatto expect, but it wasn't that
Yeah, and it makes it stickmore, right? Yes, but there's a
real lack, or there was a reallack of training that is
engaging. And you deliver yourtraining, and it's become more
and more unique, like you bringLego into it. You're you bring
(08:54):
your your famous bin into it.Everything's bold and bright and
colorful, from your outfits toyour slides to the gifts that
you bring and the merch that youshare, yeah? Like everything is
anti beige, yeah, 100% but itgives people the permission to
be themselves as well. Yeah, soyou're lifting everybody up with
it, yeah, so at that point, youdecided you were going to go out
(09:17):
on your own and deliver trainingfor people. How did you get your
first clients?
Michelle Hartley (09:23):
Well, yeah, this is really interesting. So I
I think make you know what?Maybe it's even something that
you'd said on LinkedIn, but I'msure there was something about
DM people that you know, thatknow you like as your first
sales opportunity, like, have aconversation with people that
have worked with you before. AndI thought, You know what, I'm
going to message a couple of themanagers I used to work with
who've moved on from theorganization, but I know are
still in management roles. And Ijust said, You know what I'm
(09:46):
doing this thing. I don't reallyknow what. I don't really know
what it needs to look like yet,but here's the rate. Would you
be interested in doingsomething? If you wouldn't, then
please just drop my name toanybody you know that would
Yeah. Well, within 20 minutes,one of them is like, Oh yeah, I
want to buy, like, three daysworth. Of time. Wow, let's just
book it in. And I got your laughat this. And my goal initially
was 500 quid a month because Iwanted to pay my car. And so I
(10:07):
did this. And it genuinely was,like, two grands worth of sales
straight away. And so it madeit, like, amazing straight away.
And I was like, Oh, I'm gonnaneed a bigger goal. And
Lea Turner (10:18):
it makes it real, right the minute you get that
first client? Yeah, I rememberwhen I ran my typing business, I
put an ad on Gumtree, yeah. AndI was like, oh, maybe. And it
was ridiculously low price, andI was just trying to get some
experience. And I had like,three emails straight away from
and one of those people emailedme, saying, Have you got any
experience with medicaltranscription? I was like, nope,
(10:39):
but I'm a really fast learner,so if you give me the chance, I
won't make the same mistaketwice. Yeah. And she was so
desperate, because of such alack of medical transcribers,
that she gave me a shot. And shewas my client for nine years,
and within the first few months,I became her, her favorite type,
like transcriber, and I wasgetting all of the work, yeah?
And that made it a realpossibility for me. I was like,
(11:00):
Well, if I can get this one withmedical work, I can get more
medical work, yeah, and haven'teven got the experience of half
these people. I'm just really,really, like, I'm very attention
to detail when it came to thatthing. And I was, I'm such a
perfectionist, I don't wantanything going out unless it's
perfect, yeah. And it worksreally well for me, and that
that first client that you getreally gives you the confidence,
(11:21):
even if the money's crap for it,it gives you the confidence
that, yes, I can get clients.Yeah, but that confidence
doesn't stay, does it? Becauseyou will find that you lose a
client or you make a mistake andit feels like the world is
collapsing around you, and youinternalize it so much. And
maybe that's us with our, like,ADHD, rejection sensitivity. But
(11:43):
I, as far as I know, it's thevast majority of entrepreneurs.
Yeah, and it, that's where theroller coaster comes in, because
you will go get these massivehighs. You secure a client, it's
more money than you've ever madein a month. Yeah? Like working
in your job, yeah, oh, my God,this is amazing. But then you
lose one, or you don't converton a call, and yeah, and it you
really internalize it. To startwith, how did you navigate that
(12:06):
for yourself? Like, when youdidn't get a client? Like, how
did you who did you turn to? Or,how did you remind yourself and
ground yourself in the fact thatit's not me, I'm not terrible at
what I do. This is just I'm notthe right fit for them. And
because you do have torationalize it, don't you? Yeah,
and we are quite sensitivepeople, and you do have to grow
(12:26):
a tough skin. As a businessowner, how, what did you do, or
who did you turn to that helpedyou to build that tough skin?
Michelle Hartley (12:33):
Yeah, it's such a good thing. I it's really
hard, because in the early days,the first client you lose is the
one that cuts the deepest,right? So it's just the worst.
Still
Lea Turner (12:43):
remember it, yeah, and it
Michelle Hartley (12:45):
just feels so horrible, I think, because even
now, I still get like, a properlike, Oh, this is really hard,
but I still get the feels,because it's mine, and I care,
like, and I want to do a goodjob, and I want people to, you
know, have a great time withstuff that they do with me. So
it's really hard. So I thinkpart of it is I always think,
well, there's enough work outthere for everybody, so it's
(13:06):
obviously not meant for me thistime. And that's fine. I have
had a couple of people,interestingly, say to me, Well,
I'm going to go to so. And I'mlike, that's cool. You know,
good luck to you. And they comeback and they say, Oh, I didn't
you're like, Yeah, but they'relike, I didn't have a great
experience. Like, oh, howinteresting would you like to
talk? And they come back, and Ijust think that's brilliant. So
that's a, you know, leave themwith a good feeling, and if
(13:28):
they're not yours now, theymight be in the future. Yeah,
I've had that several times,yeah, and I'm fine with that.
And I think maybe there's likethat in a and I was having
coaching with Kelly, and I saidit to her, but like, the inner
confidence thing, and I wasquestioning it, because I was
like, Is this what confidencefeels like? I'm cool with that,
see ya. Like, it's fine, becausethere's always someone else,
right? You might have one badday, one bad email, one bad turn
(13:50):
down, one bad payer, and thenthe next day, something better
will happen. Somebody will paythat massive invoice. Somebody
will message you and say, OMG,I've just seen this and I loved
it, or I've just seen this videofrom six years ago. Like, and
you're brilliant. Like, can wechat? And you know, something
will come in. I
Lea Turner (14:04):
think one of the things that's helped me is like,
remembering that I need tointernalize the good stuff as
well as the bad, because we'reall guilty of taking it so
personally when somethingdoesn't go our way, or we don't
get a customer that we wanted,or a job that we wanted, but we
don't internalize the good stuffas effectively. And one of the
things someone said to me waslike, you need to and I love
(14:27):
this. It was actually mypsychologist, my psychotherapist
that I was going to for a whilewhen I was trying to deal with I
was struggling with the volumeof attention that I was getting
online, and it really, I foundit crushing, yeah, and it really
creates a lot of anxiety in me,so I started seeing a
psychotherapist, and it wasespecially around, like, some of
the negativity I was getting,which I know you've had
(14:49):
negativity as well, and it canbe really hard to deal with when
you're putting yourselfauthentically out there on
social media, yeah. And he saidto me, you need to take yourself
to thought court. And I waslike. What's thought core, and
I've talked about this online,and it always gets a really
great reception, but it's whereyou take evidence, and you can
only take evidence into thoughtcourt, not feelings. Feelings
(15:10):
aren't facts. Feelings are, youknow, things that are going on
in you, but they're not thefacts. So you can only present
facts as evidence in thoughtcourt. Yeah. So when you're
having a feeling of, like selfdoubt, you need to have a body
of evidence that proves youwrong. So screenshotting
positive feedback messages fromclients, having a folder that I
(15:31):
call my smile file, OMG, I'vegot a small file. Yeah, maybe
you've got it. There's a post Iput out about it, and I have
this smile file. And whenever Iget like, a rejection or
something that I'm feeling likeI'm going to take this to
personally. I go to my smilefile. I read all these nice
things. I'm not as proud as Iam, but it really, really works,
yeah, and it really helps to getover that imposter syndrome that
(15:53):
we are constant. Because I thinkpeople look at people like me
and you who come acrossextremely confident and, you
know, in our own definition,successful for what we've we've
wanted to achieve. And by a lotof people's, people's
definitions, successful, yeah.And they think, Oh, we must not
feel imposter syndrome all thetime. And yet we're literally
(16:14):
shaking every time we're goingto walk out onto a stage or
before every call. We're like,oh, nervously, like, cleaning
everything right before zoomcalls. So how do you pass on
that confidence to the peoplethat you meet in the HR
industry? Like, what are some ofthe things that you find that
they say a lot that you help toovercome their confidence
(16:35):
issues, because it must be quitedifficult for specifically HR
people to feel that they canbring their authentic selves and
still do their jobs really well.Yeah,
Michelle Hartley (16:45):
this comes up a lot in my program. So the
program that I call find yourawesome, hello, comes up a lot,
and that's the whole point is.It's about HR people refinding
their awesome because it's inthere. You've just got to
refinish, help them refined it.So we talk a lot about imposter
syndrome. We've got a wholemodule on imposter syndrome,
because the amount of HR peoplethat say to me, Oh, I can't do
(17:05):
that because blah, or I don'tthink I can do that because you
bloody can, like, say, Turn offthat inner imposter. So there's
a couple of things that I getthem to do, which is, name your
imposter. So give it a name.Mine's for Roy.
Unknown (17:15):
Roy. Why Roy? Because
Michelle Hartley (17:17):
I hate the name Roy. Okay,
Lea Turner (17:19):
sorry, all the Roy is watching. Sorry, Roy.
Michelle Hartley (17:22):
So I call it Roy, and I've really visualized.
So this is what I get them to doin the program, really visualize
what your imposter looks like.So Roy is a bit like rhapsonaz,
bit like dirty trouser, stringvest, greasy, horrible care comb
over scabby skin, red face. Andhe always tells me off, and he's
given this stupid BS when wetalk it, he talks. So I get them
to name their imposter. And thereason I get them to do that is
(17:42):
because then you can to do thatbecause then you can tell it to
fuck off. So they get so nowwhat's hilarious is loads of my
geeks have done the awesomeprogram. And so whenever I come
out with something in our geekchat that's like, oh, I don't
know about this, or I can't doit, I literally get 100 messages
going, fuck off, Roy. And it'sthe best thing. That's one of
the things I teach people, andthen getting them to do the one
(18:02):
percenter. So I think you'veprobably seen this online, and
we've talked about it, maybe,but my rule is 1% so 1% better,
1% more you. 1% more self careis better than nothing. So your
1% could be I'm gonna moisturizetoday, or I'm gonna put a
sparkly top coat on my nails.That was what broke out,
burnout, sparkly top coat. Nowlook at the state. Now I that's,
(18:24):
you know, 1% better. So what'syour 1% better? What's your 1%
more authentic? What's your 1%happier? What does that look
like? And make it happen,because 1% is achievable.
Lea Turner (18:33):
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yourself. Now back to ourconversation, and it's one of
those things, isn't it? As abusiness owner, especially when
you're present on social media,you are surrounded by people
(19:18):
that seemingly are leapingforward 5075, 100% every single
week. And you think, Oh, my God,they're all moving so much
faster. Now, for a start, thevast majority of the people that
you see, seemingly leapingforward massively, are full of
shit. Like, it's not, it's notreally, you know what they say
is generally a big exaggerationon not everybody. Yeah, I really
(19:42):
did go naught to six figures inin 10 months. And, you know, so
there are, there are people thatdo have a lot of luck and
achieve amazing things, butthere's nowhere near as many as
you're led on social media. Youknow. Yes, they have fake jets
and. Make hotel scenery that youcan hire. You know they're all
(20:04):
there are all sorts of ways toappear more successful than you
actually are, and it does work,and it does get people clients
because but those clients aremassively unsatisfied, and then
try and find someone that'sreally achieving the results.
Yeah, and it's not often. It'soften not the people that you
think. But how have you foundthat that affected you when?
Because I know it, it definitelyaffected me, and I felt that I
(20:28):
was being swept away with otherpeople's expectations. And it
was like, Well, you could starta Content Agency, you could
train a load of LinkedIntrainers to do what you do. You
could franchise your community,you could do this, you could do
that. And I went, hold on aminute. I could do all of those
things, but I don't want to doall of those things. Yeah, I had
an investor literally say to me,let's grow a LinkedIn agency.
(20:51):
You head it up. I'll invest inyou. And he was like, lots and
lots of money offering me. And Iwent, That's not for me. And he
reminded of me of it the otherday and said, I'm really proud
of you because you stuck to whatyou wanted to do, yeah, not what
you could do and other peopleexpected you to do. How have you
stayed? I hate the phrase,stayed in your lane, but stayed
(21:12):
in the lane you chose, followingthe past you knew you wanted to
go on rather than get distractedwith what everybody else said
you could do or you should do?Yeah? It's
Michelle Hartley (21:22):
a good question this one, because it's
so relevant. There's two things.So the first is, I always follow
the joy. So whatever brings mejoy is what I do, yeah? And so
if it's not bringing me joy,stop bloody doing it like, or if
I do a session for a client and,like, you know what? That didn't
land and I don't like it, I'mnot doing it again. I just don't
do it again. Yeah? And so theother piece is, like, not, not
necessarily, like, being rigidabout where you start, because
(21:44):
when I started, I was like,Well, I'm just going to be a
fractional HR director forcompanies that can't afford a
full time one. Like, I'm justgoing to be that strategic
person they call when they needit. And that's fine, but it
didn't bring me joy. And ofcourse, you get to that point
where you're like, well, I couldup my prices. It's going to make
me happier. No, like, even ifthey paid me, you know, 20 grand
a day, I'd still hate it. So I'mnot going to do it. So there's
(22:07):
that kind of piece about and Isee this a lot with fellow
entrepreneurs, as they getreally rigid about, oh, but, you
know, this is me, and so this iswhat I need to do. And I'm like,
but if it's making you sad, whyare you carrying on doing it?
And so that was the biggie forme, was suddenly realizing, oh
my God, I don't need to do thisjust because I said I would like
and
Lea Turner (22:24):
the whole point of going self employed and starting
your own business is because youwant to do something that, yes,
pays the bills, but also thatyou get up in the morning
looking forward to becauseotherwise you just stay in the
nine to five job that you thatpaid the bills and was nice and
safe and, yeah, it was Allright, you didn't make maybe
hate it, but it didn't fill youup. And it sounds like a really
(22:45):
privileged thing to say, becausewe're not at the beginning. When
you first start a business,there is an element of, I kind
of need to take all theopportunities, yes, and I have
to work with people that maybewouldn't be my first choice, and
I have to probably accept lessthan I think I'm worth
sometimes, yeah, and you youreally find that path. But when
(23:06):
you get to the point where yourealize, actually, you know,
I've got good results, I've gotgreat social proof of what I'm
able to achieve, and I know morewhat I do and don't like, that's
the point where you start goingand you can still experiment. I
did it, yeah, I experimentedwith, like, four week group
training programs with LinkedIn.I loved the people that I was
working with, but I did not likethat model at all, and so I
(23:30):
stopped doing it. I did three,three runs of it, and went, I'm
not doing that anymore. And I'dactually invested quite a lot in
getting all the systems set up.But it wasn't for me. Yeah, and
I don't like speaking on stage,and I still do it now and then
for the for the really goodopportunities, but it's like,
it's very occasional, because Idon't enjoy doing it. And
everybody really tried hard. Youshould be doing this. You should
(23:53):
be doing that. I'd love to haveyou speak on this stage and that
stage, and large amounts ofmoney, and I went, but the toll
on me personally, to do that,it's not worth it. And I know
how privileged that sounds, tobe able to turn down that. And I
wouldn't have been able to do itfive years ago, and I absolutely
would have said yes to a lot ofpeople I would now say no to
(24:16):
Yeah, but that was part of thebusiness journey, and I sort of
paid my dues say, like sayingyes to things and going, Oh God,
I wish I hadn't done that, butit paid the bills at the time.
And it like getting that,getting to that stage when you
are comfortable saying no topeople is a huge turning point
(24:37):
in business and and ourconfidence levels and where
we're going to go next. I find,and did you found the same?
Michelle Hartley (24:43):
Yeah, oh yeah, completely. And now I, I, I hate
saying no the inner people,please. I never lose I hate
saying no to people. But I havethis, like core now, where I'm
like, this isn't my thing. Likethis will not bring me joy. I
won't do a good job of it. Iwould. Much rather give it to
someone who will do a great joband retain my credibility. So I
(25:04):
do often pass work on to, like,other HR consultants, to other
trainers, to other coaches,because I'm like, actually, I
won't do a good job of this. AndI do genuinely say, Yes, I can
do it like I've got the skillsto be able to pull something
together for you, but I will notbe the best person to do it. So
here's you know, one or twopeople that I highly recommend,
I really trust, who I thinkwould do a good job of it for
(25:24):
you. And I think that's that'salmost like, again, maybe that's
the confidence thing, isn't it,where you can just be like, You
know what? It's not right forme, but here's how I can help
Lea Turner (25:32):
you. And I actually heard Daniel priest talking
about this when he did the diaryof a CEO podcast, and he was
talking and I was alreadyembodying the advice that he
gives in this section of thepodcast. And I've known, you
know, I've known of DanielPriestley for a while. I'm
spoken on some stages with him,and he taught, called it with or
(25:53):
without you energy. And when Igot to the point in my business
where I was like, I'd be on acall and I'd say, Well, no, I'm
not gonna, I'm not gonna chaseyou for it, if, if you, if you
want to go ahead, I'm here whenyou're ready. But I'm not gonna,
you know, I'm not gonna keepfollowing you up and chasing
you. You know where I am and andthat, with or without you
energy, like, I don't need you,but you need me. Yeah, and I'm
(26:16):
like, it changes everything. AndI'm not saying you should be,
like, arrogant and irreverentwith clients. Obviously, that's
not, you know, potentialclients. That's not how you
should be. But when people get asense of actually, I need them
more than they need me. Yes, itreally changes the game. And
especially as a woman, when I'mbeing spoken to by male
(26:37):
potential clients, yeah, they'relike, Oh, and, you know, I've
got a really great example.There was a company, and I
won't, I can't remember theguy's name, but he ran a VA
agency, and he was trying totalk me down on prices. He
wanted to combine. So he wantedall these different versions of
my LinkedIn training fordifferent groups of people, and
he wanted to combine it all andget a discount. And I said yes
(27:00):
initially, and gave him a gooddiscount on if he booked all
three of these different thingstogether. So great. One client,
big, big pal. And then he cameback to me again, trying to cut
the price down even further. Butin that time, he then posted on
social media that I was going tobe speaking at this event to try
and sell tickets off the factthat so we haven't even agreed
(27:21):
this yet, and you come backagain after posting that, trying
to reduce my fees again. And Isaid, Actually, you've been so
disrespectful of my prices andmy value that I'm not doing any
of it. Please remove me fromthis advert. I'm not going to be
at the event. And then I gotseveral emails begging me to be
part of it. And I said, No. Andit felt so empowering to push
(27:43):
back on someone and say,Actually, I don't want your
money. Yeah, because you'rebeing really disrespectful. And
it was the best thing ever. Andwithin a couple of days, I had
two, three more clients thatwere far more who didn't try and
bring my prices down exactlythat those pivotal moments you
need to, like, grab hold of as abusiness owner, yeah, and go.
(28:03):
These are the things I need tointernalize. This is strength.
This is courage. This is meknowing what my value is and
holding on to it and trustingthat the right people will come
to you. Yeah. So where is itnow? So how long have you been
running your business? Now? So
Michelle Hartley (28:21):
December 2020 I sort of started 2021, January,
I suppose. So nearly
Lea Turner (28:25):
four years. And where do you find that you get
the most of your clients thesedays?
Michelle Hartley (28:31):
I literally only do BD on LinkedIn. So I do
nothing but LinkedIn. Soeverybody comes from LinkedIn. I
think now there's a lot moreword of mouth happening as well,
but everybody has initiallyfound me on LinkedIn. So it's
all been about LinkedIn, and
Lea Turner (28:46):
what's been the biggest move or biggest change
that you've made when you left Iassume you were using LinkedIn
when you were in HR, incorporate, I mean, but in that
time period, what's been thebiggest change for you that you
feel has really helped you toget the right kind of customers
on LinkedIn. Because LinkedIn, Imean, there's going to be a lot
(29:07):
of people who are watching thisthat know both of us from
LinkedIn, yeah, or listening tothis, and obviously, you know,
most people will know that weworked together back in the day.
But even when we workedtogether, the big changes didn't
happen immediately after that,you've been in an evolution on
it, and we've seen a lot ofpeople come and go. We've seen a
(29:27):
lot of think trends happen onthere, and there's still a huge
number of people in HR andbeyond that are frightened of
LinkedIn or don't see LinkedInas the tool it is when you're
using it well. So what have youfound has been really effective
for you as an HR professional,but for you as a person, as a
business owner, that you couldshare that would maybe encourage
(29:50):
people to give it a go or to dothings that work better.
Michelle Hartley (29:54):
Yeah, I think. And it's funny you talk about HR
and LinkedIn, so that's anothermodule on the program, because.
People are so scared of it inHR, because I think HR is
Lea Turner (30:03):
any kind of corporate role when you where
you're employed is, oh my god,I'm gonna get fired if I say the
wrong thing.
Michelle Hartley (30:10):
And I have five people for social media
behavior, it is a thing. I'dhave fired myself. But I think
for me, and how I use LinkedIn,and I know we've talked about
this, is I basically treatmyself a bit like a lighthouse,
so I put myself out there as alighthouse for the things I am,
(30:31):
the things I do, and the thingsI love. And so in the same way
that I follow the joy onLinkedIn, what I do is I share
the joy. And so I don't reallydo over selling on LinkedIn. And
I know you're the same. I don'treally do like a here's my
thing. Although, if you've beenover the last couple of weeks,
I've been talking about myevents, that's great sales. But
normally I'll be talking aboutthings that I'm doing, that I
(30:52):
love, that I enjoy, that thingsthat link to something about a
corporate table. And you've got
Lea Turner (30:58):
a real and I noticed this, you've got a real pattern
of things that you do, likeregular posts, and I think that
is one of your key strengths onthere, and I use it as an
example in the training that Ideliver people like you have
your cards against HR everyMonday, yeah. And you have your
Friday bin day, where you'vebeen three things that have
annoyed you every week. And foranyone who hasn't seen them.
(31:21):
Michelle literally holds a wastepaper basket and throws put
writes things on a post it thathave annoyed her that week, and
she puts them in the bin andsays why they've annoyed her.
And then every week she alsobins nobosaurus, who is a little
tiny paper Jeremy Clarkson as adinosaur, and she bins him every
week. That's become a pattern.And then every time you're off
to do like a training, you'vegot have such a wheel travel,
(31:44):
which is a picture of your bags,whichever bags you packed,
bright color bags, and usuallyyour cats as well. And these
patterns of like they're inpeople's heads, to the point
where you come to events with abin, or borrow someone's bin and
have random people bin things,and it's become as wild and
ridiculous as it sounds. Peoplelook forward to it. They see a
(32:07):
pattern. Sam Walkley is a greatexample as well, with his legal
Fact Friday, which is actuallytrademarked. And every single
Friday, I notice, if it's not onmy feed on a Friday, and I go
looking for it, and I knownoticed that he was gone for
four weeks when he took a break.I was like, this is part of my
week now, and I think it's areally, really strong tactic
that you use, which makescontent creation so much easier
(32:27):
for you, yes, but makes you sodistinctive. Aside from the fact
that everything's always verybrightly colored, Rainbow's
pink, you're very known for yourvivid colors on LinkedIn, which
makes you stand out in a sea of,you know, navy blue and gray and
beige, but those you've createda pattern in people's weeks,
yeah, which they look forward toand notice if it's absent, yes,
(32:49):
and it's easy for people toimmediately recognize you, but
also remember you because theyknow you as the HR bin lady, as
glamorous as that sounds, but,but you know Katie McManus I
always think of because shewears a hot dog costume and
talks about not being a weenieand starting your business. And
you have these things thatbecome very strong associations
in your head with people, yeah,and you've done that really,
(33:13):
really well, and I love it. Sois that something that you
recommend to the people that youwork with to create content that
creates a pattern in people'sheads, or, like, how do you
encourage them to be themselvesand bring content that is going
to work to become thatlighthouse? Yeah,
Michelle Hartley (33:31):
I think it's interesting, because I think
people, people want a thing,don't they? And people will
often say to me, like, oh, butwhat can my thing be? And I'm
like, Well, I can't decide thatfreaks. It needs to be your
thing. But I think there isthat, that concept of creating
an appointment to listen, or anappointment to watch, an
appointment to come and see me.And so everybody knows the
Monday, Friday thing. And sothat's the appointment to come
(33:52):
visit my profile, right? Peoplecome because they want to see
it. Or I get so many DMS ofpeople saying I love the Bin
this week, or I've been stuff inthe office this week, like, I
just love it so much so I thinkpeople need to find whatever
their thing is and it and I dida post a little while, a little
while ago about being thespecial sauce, like I'm the
secret ingredient, but the samewith other people's content is
(34:13):
they need to be the secretingredients. Sometimes
Lea Turner (34:16):
it's not something you're not just going to log on
to LinkedIn, make your firstpost and then go, Oh, I'm going
to do this thing. Yeah? Youstart learning about what people
like from you, yes, andtailoring it and, and that's a
good you know, motto forbusiness in general is, and what
you were saying at the beginningwith your trainings, you start
with an idea in your head ofwhat you want to create. And I
(34:37):
did it with the whole this iswhat my membership community is
going to be Yeah, but actually,the more people that joined, and
the more feedback I got, themore active listening I did
within the community, I realizedthat actually there are other
things I needed to add thatwould make it more valuable, and
there were things that maybeweren't so valuable that could
be sidelined, and we coulddouble down on other things. And
(34:58):
when you're regularly creating.Seeing content, whether it's
good content or bad content,you're learning what resonates
with people. Yes, even if it'snot in the comments, you're
getting DMS from people. Or yougo to an event and someone says,
Oh, I really love that thing. Isee your content on LinkedIn.
It's really great, because noteverybody's engaging. Yes, and I
think people really forget thatactually, the vast majority of
your future clients probablywill never comment on your
(35:20):
content, yeah? And that's wild,but they're there lurking in the
shadows, watching, appreciating,yeah, but not actually letting
you know that they're thereuntil they're ready to work with
you. Yeah? Did you find that aswell? Yeah,
Michelle Hartley (35:31):
100% Yeah. Some people will say a really
specific thing I've done, like,Oh, I saw that thing you did on
micro moments of self care, or Isaw that thing on micro
emergency inclusion, and I'mlike, Oh, my word, that was
like, a two minute video, and itwas used last year, yeah? How?
And they're like, oh no. Reallyresonated. And I'll look back at
it and I'll go, nope, theydidn't like it. They didn't
comment on it. Yeah, holy hell.Where is that you can come from?
(35:54):
Yeah. And it's amazing that itsticks. And I think that's the
one thing about video, actually,is it enables you to connect
more with an audience,especially when you train,
Lea Turner (36:03):
yeah, and I say this to coaches, especially. But
coaches, trainers, speakers, youhave to get on video, because as
good a writer as you might be,and as lovely as the photos
might be, if I'm hiring atrainer or or a coach or a
speaker, it's their energy,yeah, that is going to connect
with me. And I would say we areprobably better than the
(36:27):
majority in getting that energyacross in our text, but on
video, it completely changes it,and LinkedIn are really doubling
down on video at the moment withtheir new video feeds that
they're they're bringing in sopeople creating videos get leads
quicker, because I think itaccelerates getting to know
people, and people get stuck inthis rut of but my videos don't
(36:47):
get much engagement, and no onereally likes them, and I don't
get that many comments. Itdoesn't matter, because the
right people are seeing them.Oh, you've got 100 impressions.
Imagine 100 people in a room andyou just spoke, yeah, that's a
lot of people. That's threeclasses, school classes of kids,
and you've got in a room thatare listening to what you say.
That's actually a lot. So Ithink so, how have you overcome
(37:09):
your fear because you weren'tdoing video at the beginning?
No. So what have been the likekey learnings that you've had
that have changed the game foryou in in getting brave on
video, because you are one ofthe most confident video
creators that I see on LinkedIn,thanks, and you fully, fully
bring your full, yeah, full.Michelle Hartley comes out on
these videos,
Michelle Hartley (37:30):
and I think part so one thing was I had
coach with Harrison, who wasamazing, and he really got me
confident, yeah, love him. So Ihad some big coaching with him,
and he really encouraged me todo it and helped me with, like,
editing and all that kind ofstuff. That kind of stuff, yeah.
And I think the other thing is,and it sounds ridiculous, just
fucking do it, like JFDI, justdo it. And I say this to people
(37:50):
all the time, like, just do avideo, then just do one. Like,
who cares? Just do it. Yeah. Andfor me, for my biz, exactly as
you've said, my whole businessconcept is I bring my magical
energy to make training thatgives you light bulb moments. So
if you can't see me and how Ioperate, how will you know that
I bring magic energy and giveyou light bulb moments. So if I
don't do video, people won'tknow that about me, and so I end
(38:11):
up being like more hammy in reallife, because people need to see
that, right? And so that, andthat is what makes a difference,
because people will say, I'veseen your videos, and I want you
to come and do that, but in atraining format, can you do it?
And I'm like, Okay. And
Lea Turner (38:26):
actually, one of the things I hear so many times, and
it's such an excuse for peoplethat they use frequently, is I
hate the word look on video. Ihate my voice on video. Like,
don't watch it back. Yeah,exactly. Watch it back. Or I've
put on weight and I don't ifyou've put on weight and if
someone hires you to train, isthat in that exact body going to
(38:47):
be up on that stage? Is thatexact voice going to be what
they hear when they speak toyou? If the answer is yes, which
it is, then they are hiring youexactly as you are exactly. And
nobody's hiring you becauseyou're a size 12, not 14. Yeah,
no one's hiring you because yourvoice is the exact right pitch
for a trainer. They're hiringyou because of the knowledge
(39:09):
that you bring and the energythat you bring, yeah? So if you
can bring that knowledge andenergy onto the tape, doesn't
matter if you're an oilpainting, right? It doesn't
matter if you you packed on fivepounds at Christmas because we
all ate too much cheese, becausewe all do it, they're hiring the
person we love cheese. Sound bythat one, that's just gonna be a
(39:32):
clip that I play constantly. Welove cheese. It's just, it's one
of those things that peoplereally make too much. And I'm
absolutely guilty of thismyself. I've definitely used
those excuses and put it off andgone. Oh, I can't be bothered.
It's too much editing. It'sgoing to take too much time.
It's not record it. Don't editit. Add some captions, post it.
You really don't have tooverthink it, because people
(39:55):
aren't hiring you because you'rea brilliant video editor, if
they're hiring you for HRtraining, it's very nice. Skill
to have if you want to add it,but they're not going, Oh, wow,
she's a brilliant editor. I'llhire her for HR training.
Michelle Hartley (40:06):
Look at that caption. Yeah, right. Oh, the
Lea Turner (40:08):
lighting is not quite right. She's probably
terrible at her job, like it'sit, but people massively
overthink it and put so manybarriers in their way when it
really isn't that deep. Yeah.Just have a little chat. Steve
ware, actually, who we're havingon this podcast. He does them
every day. He films a videowhile he's walking his dog, and
he just has a chat with acamera. And that's the kind of
energy that you you need tobring. And he's he wasn't doing
(40:31):
it brilliantly at the beginning.Sorry, Steve, they weren't
polished videos. They're notperfect. He's not, you know, he
um, ZRS, when he's speaking,sometimes that's all fine. It's
about getting to know who youare face to face. When you meet
people after doing lots ofvideos, they're like, Oh my God,
I feel like I know you already.And that is so powerful in
building that trust andfamiliarity. When it comes to
(40:54):
trying to sell your business,and people get on a call with
you, and half the time they'realready sold. Yeah, they're just
there to confirm the details. Soyou already know it's you and
your energy that they want intheir room exactly, and it's
mad. So what would you say, ifwe're sort of coming to the end
this I've got just a couple offinal questions. What would you
say has been the mosttransformative advice that
(41:14):
you've received? And who was itfrom? If you can remember,
that's made your businessjourney more successful, more
bearable, I
Michelle Hartley (41:24):
think. And again, I can't remember who it's
from, so I feel really mean, butsomebody did say to me, and I've
adopted it. It's my very ownmantra. Now they might see it
and identify themselves, is thatthere's enough work out there
for everyone. And for me, it wasalmost like somebody just cut
the strings, and I just went,Oh, you're right, actually,
there is enough work out therefor everyone. And that was the
(41:44):
thing that stopped me beinglike, grabby about the work that
I was doing, and stopped medoing the whole, well, I'll do
that, because I sort of can andI could do something. And it
just suddenly just took all ofthe worry out somehow, because
it will come, like, there'senough work out there for
everybody, and it will come. Andso that's one that's really
struck with me. I love that, andI don't know about anything like
(42:06):
Mega transformative. I thinkjust being myself has been the
biggest win. And I think that'sjust come through that evolution
of like, corporate to
Lea Turner (42:15):
and has it leaked out into other parts of your
life? Oh, 100% Yeah. My husbandhates it.
Unknown (42:21):
Means, like, you were never this sassy when you're in
corporate.
Michelle Hartley (42:26):
And he's also, like, I really liked it when you
wore Navy, okay, well, as I'mlike, setting fire to all my
navy seats in the garden, butyeah, so it does come out
everywhere else, because now I'mmore me everywhere. So it means
that I've got more energy, I'mmore relaxed, and more
comfortable in my own skin, youknow, as we talked about weight
earlier on, but like, I'm thebiggest I've been, and I'm the
happiest I've been, and that's abig change for me,
Lea Turner (42:48):
and that's a huge thing to say, isn't it? Like I
found the exact same thing. Imean, I've always been myself.
I've never had I've never reallybeen able to be asked to be
anybody else. And you know, theperson that you meet online is
the same as you meet in person.I'm probably shorter and a
little bit more introverted inperson. I'm a little bit
Michelle Hartley (43:07):
more sober than don't drink.
Lea Turner (43:10):
What you talk about,
Unknown (43:12):
we definitely didn't slide backwards, but, but I
Lea Turner (43:18):
am the same person, but I've become more me, yes,
and I was always me, but I'm somuch more confident being
myself, because I know that itcreates the right opportunities
for me and brings the rightpeople into my life, and has
made me really happy over thelast few years. And I know both
of us have, you know, gone downthe neurodivergent diagnosis
(43:40):
route as well, and that'sdefinitely lifted a lot of my
like, the way I would punishmyself over, well, you're not
very good at that, and you'renot very good at that. I'm like,
it's fine. I'm not good at this,but I'm really good at these
things, yes, so I'm just goingto find other ways of coping, or
people to help me with thethings I'm not good at. And it's
definitely been predominantlybecause of LinkedIn, but the
(44:04):
fact that LinkedIn has enabledme to grow businesses and given
me a voice that I didn't reallyknow I had, and showed me that
people are interested in me if Iallow them the opportunity to be
interested. Yeah, and I knowthat when we spoke, there was a
definite theme of, no one'sgonna really be interested in
what I've got to say. And, yeah,I cannot. I don't think I've
(44:26):
ever had a client that has notsaid that. Yeah, and it's been
hundreds over the years.Everybody thinks that, but no
one can be interested in you ifyou don't share anything. Yeah,
right. It's like walking into anetworking event and standing in
the corner and saying, No onespoke to me. Yeah? I was like,
well, you can go over there andstart conversations, and you
(44:48):
have to, even if you're anintrovert, like, if you just put
a little bit out there, yeah,people start showing an
interest, and you go, Oh,actually, yeah, there are other
people like me here, yeah. Andso I just do it again, yeah?
And. And there's more, you'relike, oh, wow, and your
confidence just grows. And it'sbeen a massive privilege to
witness your evolution. And youknow, for us, for us to develop
(45:09):
a genuine friendship as well.We've met on many occasions.
We've definitely drunk a few toomany cocktails and eaten, what
was it? Falafel or chips? Cheesychips? Probably, yeah, but it's
been, it's been a real privilegeand a joy to do that. And I
think that's another thing thatcomes from a presence on
LinkedIn and social media ingeneral, is the genuine
friendships that you build. Yes,if you're open to it, and both
(45:32):
of us can say confidently thatwe've made many friends from the
social media. I mean, you justshare the best memes on
Instagram, which always make melaugh, but LinkedIn has
definitely been the place whereour friendships have hugely
evolved, and the workopportunities have come with
that. So it's been a realpleasure getting to chat to you
today, and I'm sorry thatBronson, my co host, abandoned
(45:53):
us halfway. You're the firstguest that you signed that to,
actually, oh no, he
Michelle Hartley (45:59):
kissed me and then abandoned you
Lea Turner (46:01):
sensed you're a campus and that's what it was.
Thank you so much for making thetrip up here, Michelle, it's
been an absolute honor, and I'msure people are going to really
enjoy the giggles of thisepisode and all the swearing, of
course. Thank you. Thanks.Before you go, I just need to
tell you about our brilliantpodcast sponsor that aligns so
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I'll see you next time you
I think just being myself has been the
(00:03):
biggest win, and I think that'sjust come through that evolution
of, like, corporate to and
Lea Turner (00:08):
has it leaked out into other parts of your life?
Oh, 100%
Michelle Hartley (00:11):
Yeah. Like, my husband hates it.
Unknown (00:14):
Neither. You were never this sassy when you're in
corporate.
Michelle Hartley (00:18):
And he's also, like, I really liked it when you
wore navy. Okay, well, as I'mlike setting fire to all my navy
seats in the garden, but yeah,so it does come out everywhere
else, because now I'm more meeverywhere. So it means that
I've got more energy, I'm morerelaxed, I'm more comfortable in
my own skin. I
Lea Turner (00:47):
Michelle Hartley, welcome to the Holt Survival
Guide for small businesses.
Michelle Hartley (00:51):
Thank you very much.
Lea Turner (00:52):
Can I ask you to give the audience a little bit
of an intro into who you are andhow we came to get here today?
Yes, so
Michelle Hartley (01:00):
Well, the short answer is, I basically
just muck about on LinkedIn. Thelonger same thing inspired. The
longer answer is, I work with HRpeople, and I basically
transform HR teams from beige tobrilliant, and I do that in a
number of different ways. So Ido coaching, I do training. I've
got an amazing course calledFind your awesome I also run a
(01:21):
little community called the HRGeek Squad, still coming down
from an event last Friday, andthen any kind of bespoke
training that clients want me todo around leadership and
management side of things. Andone
Lea Turner (01:31):
of the things I love about you and your brand that
has literally evolved before theeyes of the LinkedIn community
over the last few years, if youis you have yourself gone from
great beige to brilliant likeyou, you literally have and you,
you've admit yourself that youwere a very beige HR person. And
obviously we're not tiring theentire HR industry with the
(01:53):
beige brush, but there's a goodportion of them that are, and
they are. There are people thatI've worked with that have very
much felt that they had to bethat version of themselves when
they were working for companies,corporates and within HR. And
you've totally broken the moldwith it, but it's not always
been like that for you when youfirst started out in business. I
(02:14):
know you wanted and I know allof this because we worked
together one to one, and youwere still in your semi beige
era at that point. Yeah. Butpoint, turned into the human
rainbow that you are now. And Iremember working with you, and
there was that trepidation of ofmaybe you didn't really know who
Michelle outside of corporatewas yet, and you've really,
(02:37):
really evolved that as you'vestepped into your own business
and embraced what makes youdifferent from other people in
HR, and it took a lot ofpersonal growth and confidence
building for you to get that andit's still ongoing. And every
single year, you become morebold, more brilliant, more wacky
(02:58):
in the content that you create.But it really resonates with
people, because there seems tobe a great deal of of direction
with HR, where people want tobring themselves to it. They
don't want to feel and I see itwith like the insurance
industry, the financialindustry, the legal sector, they
all feel very much like theyneed to be this cookie cutter
version, and you've totallybroke them all, and you're
(03:21):
leading the way for other peoplewithin HR, you've become like a
beacon of of authenticity. Ihate that word, you know, we
both hate that word, but, butauthenticity and being able to
bring your weird, wonderful selfto the fore and use it for your
brand. But how did you go fromfrom beige to brilliant
(03:41):
yourself, like, what? What wasthat journey that you went on
from because you were in a jobthat you really weren't happy
in, right? And so what happenedwhen you left that and and how
did you find your own voice andyour own individuality? Yeah,
Michelle Hartley (03:56):
I think I've always had, you'll be
unsurprised here. I've alwayshad a personality, so even when
I was dressed in the beigeattire, I was always known as,
like the HR person that wouldtell it like it is, or that
would kind of tell
Lea Turner (04:10):
you, so the exterior didn't really go with the
internet. Yeah,
Michelle Hartley (04:13):
exactly. And I always say that my the period of
burnout that I had kind of awokeme to hang on a minute. Why have
I been masking and wasting allof this energy, this precious
energy of mine that I've justlost for eight weeks? Why have I
been wasting it trying to besomeone that I'm not like? It
just suddenly was a massivelight bulb moment as was coming
(04:34):
through that period of burnout,and that's when I was still in
corporate, went back to workbecause I had to be the pioneer
of showing everybody how HRreally works in real life. And
you can go back and you can useoccupational health, and you can
have a phased return. So I putmyself in this weird position
where I had to be the pioneerand the champion of doing the
right thing. And it was reallyhard, but I went back and
(04:56):
within, I don't know, three orfour weeks I was done. I just.
Knew that it wasn't right, and Icouldn't keep doing it to
myself. So that was when Ithought I'm gonna go. So handed
my resignation with the fullview of like, I'm off See you
later. I'll be gone by May. Andthen that was 2020
Lea Turner (05:13):
and you didn't have a job to go to, you hopped out.
Yeah, then COVID hit. Yes,that's not the best timing, is
it?
Michelle Hartley (05:22):
I mean, yeah, if I could, I could plan it
again. Probably wouldn't do itthat way, but yeah, so yeah,
COVID hit, so then I stayed evenlonger than I intended to,
because in my, like, inner core,I couldn't leave the
organization in that scenario.It just felt wrong. So I stayed,
and that was really hard. And Ithink for a lot of HR pros,
burnout happened in COVID. Sothat was almost burnout number
(05:43):
two. And,
Lea Turner (05:44):
I mean, it's completely understandable,
right? The stress and thepressure that must have been on
HR, particularly when you'rejuggling all of the I mean,
there's so many people suddenlyworking from home and having all
these extra anxieties involved,and juggling so much more, I can
imagine that pressure on any HRperson must have been
unbelievable,
Michelle Hartley (06:04):
like off the hiss, and even things like, you
know, understanding medicalterms, understanding legal
jargon, like furlough did notexist before 2020 in the UK, and
so understanding what it allmeant and how it's going to
work, and then translating itdown to the organization like it
was carnage. So that was sort ofburnout number two. And then
came away from that, and justthought, right, I'm going to
(06:24):
just have a break, and then I'mgoing to go back to corporate.
And that was always my plans.I'm going to find my next
corporate job and just do thenext corporate thing. And as I
got and I had good traction,good interviews, good chats,
lots of stuff happening, butnone of them set me a fire,
like, none of them made me like,want to do it. I just kept
thinking, Well, yeah, I can dothat. Yeah, that's the same set
(06:45):
of tools, just in a newlocation. You know, it's just a
bit like, yeah, I can do it, butI don't want you. And so that's
when I sort of started to think,maybe there's something else.
And ended up meeting another HRconsultant who was like, we're
just chatting. And I just said,if you've got any corporate
roles, let me know. And shesaid, why don't you just come
and work? Don't you just comework for me for a bit, see what
you want to do. Because I wasdoing loads of Canva, designing
(07:07):
stuff for my mates on the side,and you're so good at it, I love
it so much. And so I was like,maybe this is my biz. Maybe my
biz is Canva for HR people.Because all I was seeing online
was boring, AF posts that theygrabbed off Google Images. It
were blurry, horrible. Stopphotos. I was like, I can do
better than that. So for a fewmates, I was doing it. Then she
(07:27):
said, come and work with me fora bit as an associate, which I
did. And then some of it, I waslike, on I hate this. This isn't
for me. And other bits. I waslike, Oh, my god, that's
amazing. So when we started totraining and stuff, it was like
a light come down from the sky.I was like, Oh, that was my
thing. And then it kind of allwent from there, because as I
(07:48):
started to do more training, Istarted to be more me, you know,
rather than just for example,like running her slides and
talking about her stuff, Istarted to interject with, oh,
well, when I delivered this,this is what it looked like. Or,
you know, in my real world ofHR, here's how it landed, and
suddenly people were lapping itup. And I thought, Oh, hang on,
there's a market here. Yeah,this is a thing like real life,
actual training that'sinteresting, engaging and fun.
(08:10):
Oh,
Lea Turner (08:11):
I mean, that's, that's something that's a
struggle across the board, isn'tit? And I've heard it myself
when I'm delivering LinkedIntraining. You know, someone a
company, says you need to comein today, we're doing LinkedIn
training, and they're expecting,you know, 50 year old Colin,
who's balding and in a blue soit's Colin, and then I come in
and they go, yeah, oh, hold on aminute. And I deliver it
(08:32):
completely differently, and in away that is fun and relatable
and engaging. I wasn't sure whatto expect, but it wasn't that
Yeah, and it makes it stickmore, right? Yes, but there's a
real lack, or there was a reallack of training that is
engaging. And you deliver yourtraining, and it's become more
and more unique, like you bringLego into it. You're you bring
(08:54):
your your famous bin into it.Everything's bold and bright and
colorful, from your outfits toyour slides to the gifts that
you bring and the merch that youshare, yeah? Like everything is
anti beige, yeah, 100% but itgives people the permission to
be themselves as well. Yeah, soyou're lifting everybody up with
it, yeah, so at that point, youdecided you were going to go out
(09:17):
on your own and deliver trainingfor people. How did you get your
first clients?
Michelle Hartley (09:23):
Well, yeah, this is really interesting. So I
I think make you know what?Maybe it's even something that
you'd said on LinkedIn, but I'msure there was something about
DM people that you know, thatknow you like as your first
sales opportunity, like, have aconversation with people that
have worked with you before. AndI thought, You know what, I'm
going to message a couple of themanagers I used to work with
who've moved on from theorganization, but I know are
still in management roles. And Ijust said, You know what I'm
(09:46):
doing this thing. I don't reallyknow what. I don't really know
what it needs to look like yet,but here's the rate. Would you
be interested in doingsomething? If you wouldn't, then
please just drop my name toanybody you know that would
Yeah. Well, within 20 minutes,one of them is like, Oh yeah, I
want to buy, like, three daysworth. Of time. Wow, let's just
book it in. And I got your laughat this. And my goal initially
was 500 quid a month because Iwanted to pay my car. And so I
(10:07):
did this. And it genuinely was,like, two grands worth of sales
straight away. And so it madeit, like, amazing straight away.
And I was like, Oh, I'm gonnaneed a bigger goal. And
Lea Turner (10:18):
it makes it real, right the minute you get that
first client? Yeah, I rememberwhen I ran my typing business, I
put an ad on Gumtree, yeah. AndI was like, oh, maybe. And it
was ridiculously low price, andI was just trying to get some
experience. And I had like,three emails straight away from
and one of those people emailedme, saying, Have you got any
experience with medicaltranscription? I was like, nope,
(10:39):
but I'm a really fast learner,so if you give me the chance, I
won't make the same mistaketwice. Yeah. And she was so
desperate, because of such alack of medical transcribers,
that she gave me a shot. And shewas my client for nine years,
and within the first few months,I became her, her favorite type,
like transcriber, and I wasgetting all of the work, yeah?
And that made it a realpossibility for me. I was like,
(11:00):
Well, if I can get this one withmedical work, I can get more
medical work, yeah, and haven'teven got the experience of half
these people. I'm just really,really, like, I'm very attention
to detail when it came to thatthing. And I was, I'm such a
perfectionist, I don't wantanything going out unless it's
perfect, yeah. And it worksreally well for me, and that
that first client that you getreally gives you the confidence,
(11:21):
even if the money's crap for it,it gives you the confidence
that, yes, I can get clients.Yeah, but that confidence
doesn't stay, does it? Becauseyou will find that you lose a
client or you make a mistake andit feels like the world is
collapsing around you, and youinternalize it so much. And
maybe that's us with our, like,ADHD, rejection sensitivity. But
(11:43):
I, as far as I know, it's thevast majority of entrepreneurs.
Yeah, and it, that's where theroller coaster comes in, because
you will go get these massivehighs. You secure a client, it's
more money than you've ever madein a month. Yeah? Like working
in your job, yeah, oh, my God,this is amazing. But then you
lose one, or you don't converton a call, and yeah, and it you
really internalize it. To startwith, how did you navigate that
(12:06):
for yourself? Like, when youdidn't get a client? Like, how
did you who did you turn to? Or,how did you remind yourself and
ground yourself in the fact thatit's not me, I'm not terrible at
what I do. This is just I'm notthe right fit for them. And
because you do have torationalize it, don't you? Yeah,
and we are quite sensitivepeople, and you do have to grow
(12:26):
a tough skin. As a businessowner, how, what did you do, or
who did you turn to that helpedyou to build that tough skin?
Michelle Hartley (12:33):
Yeah, it's such a good thing. I it's really
hard, because in the early days,the first client you lose is the
one that cuts the deepest,right? So it's just the worst.
Still
Lea Turner (12:43):
remember it, yeah, and it
Michelle Hartley (12:45):
just feels so horrible, I think, because even
now, I still get like, a properlike, Oh, this is really hard,
but I still get the feels,because it's mine, and I care,
like, and I want to do a goodjob, and I want people to, you
know, have a great time withstuff that they do with me. So
it's really hard. So I thinkpart of it is I always think,
well, there's enough work outthere for everybody, so it's
(13:06):
obviously not meant for me thistime. And that's fine. I have
had a couple of people,interestingly, say to me, Well,
I'm going to go to so. And I'mlike, that's cool. You know,
good luck to you. And they comeback and they say, Oh, I didn't
you're like, Yeah, but they'relike, I didn't have a great
experience. Like, oh, howinteresting would you like to
talk? And they come back, and Ijust think that's brilliant. So
that's a, you know, leave themwith a good feeling, and if
(13:28):
they're not yours now, theymight be in the future. Yeah,
I've had that several times,yeah, and I'm fine with that.
And I think maybe there's likethat in a and I was having
coaching with Kelly, and I saidit to her, but like, the inner
confidence thing, and I wasquestioning it, because I was
like, Is this what confidencefeels like? I'm cool with that,
see ya. Like, it's fine, becausethere's always someone else,
right? You might have one badday, one bad email, one bad turn
(13:50):
down, one bad payer, and thenthe next day, something better
will happen. Somebody will paythat massive invoice. Somebody
will message you and say, OMG,I've just seen this and I loved
it, or I've just seen this videofrom six years ago. Like, and
you're brilliant. Like, can wechat? And you know, something
will come in. I
Lea Turner (14:04):
think one of the things that's helped me is like,
remembering that I need tointernalize the good stuff as
well as the bad, because we'reall guilty of taking it so
personally when somethingdoesn't go our way, or we don't
get a customer that we wanted,or a job that we wanted, but we
don't internalize the good stuffas effectively. And one of the
things someone said to me waslike, you need to and I love
(14:27):
this. It was actually mypsychologist, my psychotherapist
that I was going to for a whilewhen I was trying to deal with I
was struggling with the volumeof attention that I was getting
online, and it really, I foundit crushing, yeah, and it really
creates a lot of anxiety in me,so I started seeing a
psychotherapist, and it wasespecially around, like, some of
the negativity I was getting,which I know you've had
(14:49):
negativity as well, and it canbe really hard to deal with when
you're putting yourselfauthentically out there on
social media, yeah. And he saidto me, you need to take yourself
to thought court. And I waslike. What's thought core, and
I've talked about this online,and it always gets a really
great reception, but it's whereyou take evidence, and you can
only take evidence into thoughtcourt, not feelings. Feelings
(15:10):
aren't facts. Feelings are, youknow, things that are going on
in you, but they're not thefacts. So you can only present
facts as evidence in thoughtcourt. Yeah. So when you're
having a feeling of, like selfdoubt, you need to have a body
of evidence that proves youwrong. So screenshotting
positive feedback messages fromclients, having a folder that I
(15:31):
call my smile file, OMG, I'vegot a small file. Yeah, maybe
you've got it. There's a post Iput out about it, and I have
this smile file. And whenever Iget like, a rejection or
something that I'm feeling likeI'm going to take this to
personally. I go to my smilefile. I read all these nice
things. I'm not as proud as Iam, but it really, really works,
yeah, and it really helps to getover that imposter syndrome that
(15:53):
we are constant. Because I thinkpeople look at people like me
and you who come acrossextremely confident and, you
know, in our own definition,successful for what we've we've
wanted to achieve. And by a lotof people's, people's
definitions, successful, yeah.And they think, Oh, we must not
feel imposter syndrome all thetime. And yet we're literally
(16:14):
shaking every time we're goingto walk out onto a stage or
before every call. We're like,oh, nervously, like, cleaning
everything right before zoomcalls. So how do you pass on
that confidence to the peoplethat you meet in the HR
industry? Like, what are some ofthe things that you find that
they say a lot that you help toovercome their confidence
(16:35):
issues, because it must be quitedifficult for specifically HR
people to feel that they canbring their authentic selves and
still do their jobs really well.Yeah,
Michelle Hartley (16:45):
this comes up a lot in my program. So the
program that I call find yourawesome, hello, comes up a lot,
and that's the whole point is.It's about HR people refinding
their awesome because it's inthere. You've just got to
refinish, help them refined it.So we talk a lot about imposter
syndrome. We've got a wholemodule on imposter syndrome,
because the amount of HR peoplethat say to me, Oh, I can't do
(17:05):
that because blah, or I don'tthink I can do that because you
bloody can, like, say, Turn offthat inner imposter. So there's
a couple of things that I getthem to do, which is, name your
imposter. So give it a name.Mine's for Roy.
Unknown (17:15):
Roy. Why Roy? Because
Michelle Hartley (17:17):
I hate the name Roy. Okay,
Lea Turner (17:19):
sorry, all the Roy is watching. Sorry, Roy.
Michelle Hartley (17:22):
So I call it Roy, and I've really visualized.
So this is what I get them to doin the program, really visualize
what your imposter looks like.So Roy is a bit like rhapsonaz,
bit like dirty trouser, stringvest, greasy, horrible care comb
over scabby skin, red face. Andhe always tells me off, and he's
given this stupid BS when wetalk it, he talks. So I get them
to name their imposter. And thereason I get them to do that is
(17:42):
because then you can to do thatbecause then you can tell it to
fuck off. So they get so nowwhat's hilarious is loads of my
geeks have done the awesomeprogram. And so whenever I come
out with something in our geekchat that's like, oh, I don't
know about this, or I can't doit, I literally get 100 messages
going, fuck off, Roy. And it'sthe best thing. That's one of
the things I teach people, andthen getting them to do the one
(18:02):
percenter. So I think you'veprobably seen this online, and
we've talked about it, maybe,but my rule is 1% so 1% better,
1% more you. 1% more self careis better than nothing. So your
1% could be I'm gonna moisturizetoday, or I'm gonna put a
sparkly top coat on my nails.That was what broke out,
burnout, sparkly top coat. Nowlook at the state. Now I that's,
(18:24):
you know, 1% better. So what'syour 1% better? What's your 1%
more authentic? What's your 1%happier? What does that look
like? And make it happen,because 1% is achievable.
Lea Turner (18:33):
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yourself. Now back to ourconversation, and it's one of
those things, isn't it? As abusiness owner, especially when
you're present on social media,you are surrounded by people
(19:18):
that seemingly are leapingforward 5075, 100% every single
week. And you think, Oh, my God,they're all moving so much
faster. Now, for a start, thevast majority of the people that
you see, seemingly leapingforward massively, are full of
shit. Like, it's not, it's notreally, you know what they say
is generally a big exaggerationon not everybody. Yeah, I really
(19:42):
did go naught to six figures inin 10 months. And, you know, so
there are, there are people thatdo have a lot of luck and
achieve amazing things, butthere's nowhere near as many as
you're led on social media. Youknow. Yes, they have fake jets
and. Make hotel scenery that youcan hire. You know they're all
(20:04):
there are all sorts of ways toappear more successful than you
actually are, and it does work,and it does get people clients
because but those clients aremassively unsatisfied, and then
try and find someone that'sreally achieving the results.
Yeah, and it's not often. It'soften not the people that you
think. But how have you foundthat that affected you when?
Because I know it, it definitelyaffected me, and I felt that I
(20:28):
was being swept away with otherpeople's expectations. And it
was like, Well, you could starta Content Agency, you could
train a load of LinkedIntrainers to do what you do. You
could franchise your community,you could do this, you could do
that. And I went, hold on aminute. I could do all of those
things, but I don't want to doall of those things. Yeah, I had
an investor literally say to me,let's grow a LinkedIn agency.
(20:51):
You head it up. I'll invest inyou. And he was like, lots and
lots of money offering me. And Iwent, That's not for me. And he
reminded of me of it the otherday and said, I'm really proud
of you because you stuck to whatyou wanted to do, yeah, not what
you could do and other peopleexpected you to do. How have you
stayed? I hate the phrase,stayed in your lane, but stayed
(21:12):
in the lane you chose, followingthe past you knew you wanted to
go on rather than get distractedwith what everybody else said
you could do or you should do?Yeah? It's
Michelle Hartley (21:22):
a good question this one, because it's
so relevant. There's two things.So the first is, I always follow
the joy. So whatever brings mejoy is what I do, yeah? And so
if it's not bringing me joy,stop bloody doing it like, or if
I do a session for a client and,like, you know what? That didn't
land and I don't like it, I'mnot doing it again. I just don't
do it again. Yeah? And so theother piece is, like, not, not
necessarily, like, being rigidabout where you start, because
(21:44):
when I started, I was like,Well, I'm just going to be a
fractional HR director forcompanies that can't afford a
full time one. Like, I'm justgoing to be that strategic
person they call when they needit. And that's fine, but it
didn't bring me joy. And ofcourse, you get to that point
where you're like, well, I couldup my prices. It's going to make
me happier. No, like, even ifthey paid me, you know, 20 grand
a day, I'd still hate it. So I'mnot going to do it. So there's
(22:07):
that kind of piece about and Isee this a lot with fellow
entrepreneurs, as they getreally rigid about, oh, but, you
know, this is me, and so this iswhat I need to do. And I'm like,
but if it's making you sad, whyare you carrying on doing it?
And so that was the biggie forme, was suddenly realizing, oh
my God, I don't need to do thisjust because I said I would like
and
Lea Turner (22:24):
the whole point of going self employed and starting
your own business is because youwant to do something that, yes,
pays the bills, but also thatyou get up in the morning
looking forward to becauseotherwise you just stay in the
nine to five job that you thatpaid the bills and was nice and
safe and, yeah, it was Allright, you didn't make maybe
hate it, but it didn't fill youup. And it sounds like a really
(22:45):
privileged thing to say, becausewe're not at the beginning. When
you first start a business,there is an element of, I kind
of need to take all theopportunities, yes, and I have
to work with people that maybewouldn't be my first choice, and
I have to probably accept lessthan I think I'm worth
sometimes, yeah, and you youreally find that path. But when
(23:06):
you get to the point where yourealize, actually, you know,
I've got good results, I've gotgreat social proof of what I'm
able to achieve, and I know morewhat I do and don't like, that's
the point where you start goingand you can still experiment. I
did it, yeah, I experimentedwith, like, four week group
training programs with LinkedIn.I loved the people that I was
working with, but I did not likethat model at all, and so I
(23:30):
stopped doing it. I did three,three runs of it, and went, I'm
not doing that anymore. And I'dactually invested quite a lot in
getting all the systems set up.But it wasn't for me. Yeah, and
I don't like speaking on stage,and I still do it now and then
for the for the really goodopportunities, but it's like,
it's very occasional, because Idon't enjoy doing it. And
everybody really tried hard. Youshould be doing this. You should
(23:53):
be doing that. I'd love to haveyou speak on this stage and that
stage, and large amounts ofmoney, and I went, but the toll
on me personally, to do that,it's not worth it. And I know
how privileged that sounds, tobe able to turn down that. And I
wouldn't have been able to do itfive years ago, and I absolutely
would have said yes to a lot ofpeople I would now say no to
(24:16):
Yeah, but that was part of thebusiness journey, and I sort of
paid my dues say, like sayingyes to things and going, Oh God,
I wish I hadn't done that, butit paid the bills at the time.
And it like getting that,getting to that stage when you
are comfortable saying no topeople is a huge turning point
(24:37):
in business and and ourconfidence levels and where
we're going to go next. I find,and did you found the same?
Michelle Hartley (24:43):
Yeah, oh yeah, completely. And now I, I, I hate
saying no the inner people,please. I never lose I hate
saying no to people. But I havethis, like core now, where I'm
like, this isn't my thing. Likethis will not bring me joy. I
won't do a good job of it. Iwould. Much rather give it to
someone who will do a great joband retain my credibility. So I
(25:04):
do often pass work on to, like,other HR consultants, to other
trainers, to other coaches,because I'm like, actually, I
won't do a good job of this. AndI do genuinely say, Yes, I can
do it like I've got the skillsto be able to pull something
together for you, but I will notbe the best person to do it. So
here's you know, one or twopeople that I highly recommend,
I really trust, who I thinkwould do a good job of it for
(25:24):
you. And I think that's that'salmost like, again, maybe that's
the confidence thing, isn't it,where you can just be like, You
know what? It's not right forme, but here's how I can help
Lea Turner (25:32):
you. And I actually heard Daniel priest talking
about this when he did the diaryof a CEO podcast, and he was
talking and I was alreadyembodying the advice that he
gives in this section of thepodcast. And I've known, you
know, I've known of DanielPriestley for a while. I'm
spoken on some stages with him,and he taught, called it with or
(25:53):
without you energy. And when Igot to the point in my business
where I was like, I'd be on acall and I'd say, Well, no, I'm
not gonna, I'm not gonna chaseyou for it, if, if you, if you
want to go ahead, I'm here whenyou're ready. But I'm not gonna,
you know, I'm not gonna keepfollowing you up and chasing
you. You know where I am and andthat, with or without you
energy, like, I don't need you,but you need me. Yeah, and I'm
(26:16):
like, it changes everything. AndI'm not saying you should be,
like, arrogant and irreverentwith clients. Obviously, that's
not, you know, potentialclients. That's not how you
should be. But when people get asense of actually, I need them
more than they need me. Yes, itreally changes the game. And
especially as a woman, when I'mbeing spoken to by male
(26:37):
potential clients, yeah, they'relike, Oh, and, you know, I've
got a really great example.There was a company, and I
won't, I can't remember theguy's name, but he ran a VA
agency, and he was trying totalk me down on prices. He
wanted to combine. So he wantedall these different versions of
my LinkedIn training fordifferent groups of people, and
he wanted to combine it all andget a discount. And I said yes
(27:00):
initially, and gave him a gooddiscount on if he booked all
three of these different thingstogether. So great. One client,
big, big pal. And then he cameback to me again, trying to cut
the price down even further. Butin that time, he then posted on
social media that I was going tobe speaking at this event to try
and sell tickets off the factthat so we haven't even agreed
(27:21):
this yet, and you come backagain after posting that, trying
to reduce my fees again. And Isaid, Actually, you've been so
disrespectful of my prices andmy value that I'm not doing any
of it. Please remove me fromthis advert. I'm not going to be
at the event. And then I gotseveral emails begging me to be
part of it. And I said, No. Andit felt so empowering to push
(27:43):
back on someone and say,Actually, I don't want your
money. Yeah, because you'rebeing really disrespectful. And
it was the best thing ever. Andwithin a couple of days, I had
two, three more clients thatwere far more who didn't try and
bring my prices down exactlythat those pivotal moments you
need to, like, grab hold of as abusiness owner, yeah, and go.
(28:03):
These are the things I need tointernalize. This is strength.
This is courage. This is meknowing what my value is and
holding on to it and trustingthat the right people will come
to you. Yeah. So where is itnow? So how long have you been
running your business? Now? So
Michelle Hartley (28:21):
December 2020 I sort of started 2021, January,
I suppose. So nearly
Lea Turner (28:25):
four years. And where do you find that you get
the most of your clients thesedays?
Michelle Hartley (28:31):
I literally only do BD on LinkedIn. So I do
nothing but LinkedIn. Soeverybody comes from LinkedIn. I
think now there's a lot moreword of mouth happening as well,
but everybody has initiallyfound me on LinkedIn. So it's
all been about LinkedIn, and
Lea Turner (28:46):
what's been the biggest move or biggest change
that you've made when you left Iassume you were using LinkedIn
when you were in HR, incorporate, I mean, but in that
time period, what's been thebiggest change for you that you
feel has really helped you toget the right kind of customers
on LinkedIn. Because LinkedIn, Imean, there's going to be a lot
(29:07):
of people who are watching thisthat know both of us from
LinkedIn, yeah, or listening tothis, and obviously, you know,
most people will know that weworked together back in the day.
But even when we workedtogether, the big changes didn't
happen immediately after that,you've been in an evolution on
it, and we've seen a lot ofpeople come and go. We've seen a
(29:27):
lot of think trends happen onthere, and there's still a huge
number of people in HR andbeyond that are frightened of
LinkedIn or don't see LinkedInas the tool it is when you're
using it well. So what have youfound has been really effective
for you as an HR professional,but for you as a person, as a
business owner, that you couldshare that would maybe encourage
(29:50):
people to give it a go or to dothings that work better.
Michelle Hartley (29:54):
Yeah, I think. And it's funny you talk about HR
and LinkedIn, so that's anothermodule on the program, because.
People are so scared of it inHR, because I think HR is
Lea Turner (30:03):
any kind of corporate role when you where
you're employed is, oh my god,I'm gonna get fired if I say the
wrong thing.
Michelle Hartley (30:10):
And I have five people for social media
behavior, it is a thing. I'dhave fired myself. But I think
for me, and how I use LinkedIn,and I know we've talked about
this, is I basically treatmyself a bit like a lighthouse,
so I put myself out there as alighthouse for the things I am,
(30:31):
the things I do, and the thingsI love. And so in the same way
that I follow the joy onLinkedIn, what I do is I share
the joy. And so I don't reallydo over selling on LinkedIn. And
I know you're the same. I don'treally do like a here's my
thing. Although, if you've beenover the last couple of weeks,
I've been talking about myevents, that's great sales. But
normally I'll be talking aboutthings that I'm doing, that I
(30:52):
love, that I enjoy, that thingsthat link to something about a
corporate table. And you've got
Lea Turner (30:58):
a real and I noticed this, you've got a real pattern
of things that you do, likeregular posts, and I think that
is one of your key strengths onthere, and I use it as an
example in the training that Ideliver people like you have
your cards against HR everyMonday, yeah. And you have your
Friday bin day, where you'vebeen three things that have
annoyed you every week. And foranyone who hasn't seen them.
(31:21):
Michelle literally holds a wastepaper basket and throws put
writes things on a post it thathave annoyed her that week, and
she puts them in the bin andsays why they've annoyed her.
And then every week she alsobins nobosaurus, who is a little
tiny paper Jeremy Clarkson as adinosaur, and she bins him every
week. That's become a pattern.And then every time you're off
to do like a training, you'vegot have such a wheel travel,
(31:44):
which is a picture of your bags,whichever bags you packed,
bright color bags, and usuallyyour cats as well. And these
patterns of like they're inpeople's heads, to the point
where you come to events with abin, or borrow someone's bin and
have random people bin things,and it's become as wild and
ridiculous as it sounds. Peoplelook forward to it. They see a
(32:07):
pattern. Sam Walkley is a greatexample as well, with his legal
Fact Friday, which is actuallytrademarked. And every single
Friday, I notice, if it's not onmy feed on a Friday, and I go
looking for it, and I knownoticed that he was gone for
four weeks when he took a break.I was like, this is part of my
week now, and I think it's areally, really strong tactic
that you use, which makescontent creation so much easier
(32:27):
for you, yes, but makes you sodistinctive. Aside from the fact
that everything's always verybrightly colored, Rainbow's
pink, you're very known for yourvivid colors on LinkedIn, which
makes you stand out in a sea of,you know, navy blue and gray and
beige, but those you've createda pattern in people's weeks,
yeah, which they look forward toand notice if it's absent, yes,
(32:49):
and it's easy for people toimmediately recognize you, but
also remember you because theyknow you as the HR bin lady, as
glamorous as that sounds, but,but you know Katie McManus I
always think of because shewears a hot dog costume and
talks about not being a weenieand starting your business. And
you have these things thatbecome very strong associations
in your head with people, yeah,and you've done that really,
(33:13):
really well, and I love it. Sois that something that you
recommend to the people that youwork with to create content that
creates a pattern in people'sheads, or, like, how do you
encourage them to be themselvesand bring content that is going
to work to become thatlighthouse? Yeah,
Michelle Hartley (33:31):
I think it's interesting, because I think
people, people want a thing,don't they? And people will
often say to me, like, oh, butwhat can my thing be? And I'm
like, Well, I can't decide thatfreaks. It needs to be your
thing. But I think there isthat, that concept of creating
an appointment to listen, or anappointment to watch, an
appointment to come and see me.And so everybody knows the
Monday, Friday thing. And sothat's the appointment to come
(33:52):
visit my profile, right? Peoplecome because they want to see
it. Or I get so many DMS ofpeople saying I love the Bin
this week, or I've been stuff inthe office this week, like, I
just love it so much so I thinkpeople need to find whatever
their thing is and it and I dida post a little while, a little
while ago about being thespecial sauce, like I'm the
secret ingredient, but the samewith other people's content is
(34:13):
they need to be the secretingredients. Sometimes
Lea Turner (34:16):
it's not something you're not just going to log on
to LinkedIn, make your firstpost and then go, Oh, I'm going
to do this thing. Yeah? Youstart learning about what people
like from you, yes, andtailoring it and, and that's a
good you know, motto forbusiness in general is, and what
you were saying at the beginningwith your trainings, you start
with an idea in your head ofwhat you want to create. And I
(34:37):
did it with the whole this iswhat my membership community is
going to be Yeah, but actually,the more people that joined, and
the more feedback I got, themore active listening I did
within the community, I realizedthat actually there are other
things I needed to add thatwould make it more valuable, and
there were things that maybeweren't so valuable that could
be sidelined, and we coulddouble down on other things. And
(34:58):
when you're regularly creating.Seeing content, whether it's
good content or bad content,you're learning what resonates
with people. Yes, even if it'snot in the comments, you're
getting DMS from people. Or yougo to an event and someone says,
Oh, I really love that thing. Isee your content on LinkedIn.
It's really great, because noteverybody's engaging. Yes, and I
think people really forget thatactually, the vast majority of
your future clients probablywill never comment on your
(35:20):
content, yeah? And that's wild,but they're there lurking in the
shadows, watching, appreciating,yeah, but not actually letting
you know that they're thereuntil they're ready to work with
you. Yeah? Did you find that aswell? Yeah,
Michelle Hartley (35:31):
100% Yeah. Some people will say a really
specific thing I've done, like,Oh, I saw that thing you did on
micro moments of self care, or Isaw that thing on micro
emergency inclusion, and I'mlike, Oh, my word, that was
like, a two minute video, and itwas used last year, yeah? How?
And they're like, oh no. Reallyresonated. And I'll look back at
it and I'll go, nope, theydidn't like it. They didn't
comment on it. Yeah, holy hell.Where is that you can come from?
(35:54):
Yeah. And it's amazing that itsticks. And I think that's the
one thing about video, actually,is it enables you to connect
more with an audience,especially when you train,
Lea Turner (36:03):
yeah, and I say this to coaches, especially. But
coaches, trainers, speakers, youhave to get on video, because as
good a writer as you might be,and as lovely as the photos
might be, if I'm hiring atrainer or or a coach or a
speaker, it's their energy,yeah, that is going to connect
with me. And I would say we areprobably better than the
(36:27):
majority in getting that energyacross in our text, but on
video, it completely changes it,and LinkedIn are really doubling
down on video at the moment withtheir new video feeds that
they're they're bringing in sopeople creating videos get leads
quicker, because I think itaccelerates getting to know
people, and people get stuck inthis rut of but my videos don't
(36:47):
get much engagement, and no onereally likes them, and I don't
get that many comments. Itdoesn't matter, because the
right people are seeing them.Oh, you've got 100 impressions.
Imagine 100 people in a room andyou just spoke, yeah, that's a
lot of people. That's threeclasses, school classes of kids,
and you've got in a room thatare listening to what you say.
That's actually a lot. So Ithink so, how have you overcome
(37:09):
your fear because you weren'tdoing video at the beginning?
No. So what have been the likekey learnings that you've had
that have changed the game foryou in in getting brave on
video, because you are one ofthe most confident video
creators that I see on LinkedIn,thanks, and you fully, fully
bring your full, yeah, full.Michelle Hartley comes out on
these videos,
Michelle Hartley (37:30):
and I think part so one thing was I had
coach with Harrison, who wasamazing, and he really got me
confident, yeah, love him. So Ihad some big coaching with him,
and he really encouraged me todo it and helped me with, like,
editing and all that kind ofstuff. That kind of stuff, yeah.
And I think the other thing is,and it sounds ridiculous, just
fucking do it, like JFDI, justdo it. And I say this to people
(37:50):
all the time, like, just do avideo, then just do one. Like,
who cares? Just do it. Yeah. Andfor me, for my biz, exactly as
you've said, my whole businessconcept is I bring my magical
energy to make training thatgives you light bulb moments. So
if you can't see me and how Ioperate, how will you know that
I bring magic energy and giveyou light bulb moments. So if I
don't do video, people won'tknow that about me, and so I end
(38:11):
up being like more hammy in reallife, because people need to see
that, right? And so that, andthat is what makes a difference,
because people will say, I'veseen your videos, and I want you
to come and do that, but in atraining format, can you do it?
And I'm like, Okay. And
Lea Turner (38:26):
actually, one of the things I hear so many times, and
it's such an excuse for peoplethat they use frequently, is I
hate the word look on video. Ihate my voice on video. Like,
don't watch it back. Yeah,exactly. Watch it back. Or I've
put on weight and I don't ifyou've put on weight and if
someone hires you to train, isthat in that exact body going to
(38:47):
be up on that stage? Is thatexact voice going to be what
they hear when they speak toyou? If the answer is yes, which
it is, then they are hiring youexactly as you are exactly. And
nobody's hiring you becauseyou're a size 12, not 14. Yeah,
no one's hiring you because yourvoice is the exact right pitch
for a trainer. They're hiringyou because of the knowledge
(39:09):
that you bring and the energythat you bring, yeah? So if you
can bring that knowledge andenergy onto the tape, doesn't
matter if you're an oilpainting, right? It doesn't
matter if you you packed on fivepounds at Christmas because we
all ate too much cheese, becausewe all do it, they're hiring the
person we love cheese. Sound bythat one, that's just gonna be a
(39:32):
clip that I play constantly. Welove cheese. It's just, it's one
of those things that peoplereally make too much. And I'm
absolutely guilty of thismyself. I've definitely used
those excuses and put it off andgone. Oh, I can't be bothered.
It's too much editing. It'sgoing to take too much time.
It's not record it. Don't editit. Add some captions, post it.
You really don't have tooverthink it, because people
(39:55):
aren't hiring you because you'rea brilliant video editor, if
they're hiring you for HRtraining, it's very nice. Skill
to have if you want to add it,but they're not going, Oh, wow,
she's a brilliant editor. I'llhire her for HR training.
Michelle Hartley (40:06):
Look at that caption. Yeah, right. Oh, the
Lea Turner (40:08):
lighting is not quite right. She's probably
terrible at her job, like it'sit, but people massively
overthink it and put so manybarriers in their way when it
really isn't that deep. Yeah.Just have a little chat. Steve
ware, actually, who we're havingon this podcast. He does them
every day. He films a videowhile he's walking his dog, and
he just has a chat with acamera. And that's the kind of
energy that you you need tobring. And he's he wasn't doing
(40:31):
it brilliantly at the beginning.Sorry, Steve, they weren't
polished videos. They're notperfect. He's not, you know, he
um, ZRS, when he's speaking,sometimes that's all fine. It's
about getting to know who youare face to face. When you meet
people after doing lots ofvideos, they're like, Oh my God,
I feel like I know you already.And that is so powerful in
building that trust andfamiliarity. When it comes to
(40:54):
trying to sell your business,and people get on a call with
you, and half the time they'realready sold. Yeah, they're just
there to confirm the details. Soyou already know it's you and
your energy that they want intheir room exactly, and it's
mad. So what would you say, ifwe're sort of coming to the end
this I've got just a couple offinal questions. What would you
say has been the mosttransformative advice that
(41:14):
you've received? And who was itfrom? If you can remember,
that's made your businessjourney more successful, more
bearable, I
Michelle Hartley (41:24):
think. And again, I can't remember who it's
from, so I feel really mean, butsomebody did say to me, and I've
adopted it. It's my very ownmantra. Now they might see it
and identify themselves, is thatthere's enough work out there
for everyone. And for me, it wasalmost like somebody just cut
the strings, and I just went,Oh, you're right, actually,
there is enough work out therefor everyone. And that was the
(41:44):
thing that stopped me beinglike, grabby about the work that
I was doing, and stopped medoing the whole, well, I'll do
that, because I sort of can andI could do something. And it
just suddenly just took all ofthe worry out somehow, because
it will come, like, there'senough work out there for
everybody, and it will come. Andso that's one that's really
struck with me. I love that, andI don't know about anything like
(42:06):
Mega transformative. I thinkjust being myself has been the
biggest win. And I think that'sjust come through that evolution
of like, corporate to
Lea Turner (42:15):
and has it leaked out into other parts of your
life? Oh, 100% Yeah. My husbandhates it.
Unknown (42:21):
Means, like, you were never this sassy when you're in
corporate.
Michelle Hartley (42:26):
And he's also, like, I really liked it when you
wore Navy, okay, well, as I'mlike, setting fire to all my
navy seats in the garden, butyeah, so it does come out
everywhere else, because now I'mmore me everywhere. So it means
that I've got more energy, I'mmore relaxed, and more
comfortable in my own skin, youknow, as we talked about weight
earlier on, but like, I'm thebiggest I've been, and I'm the
happiest I've been, and that's abig change for me,
Lea Turner (42:48):
and that's a huge thing to say, isn't it? Like I
found the exact same thing. Imean, I've always been myself.
I've never had I've never reallybeen able to be asked to be
anybody else. And you know, theperson that you meet online is
the same as you meet in person.I'm probably shorter and a
little bit more introverted inperson. I'm a little bit
Michelle Hartley (43:07):
more sober than don't drink.
Lea Turner (43:10):
What you talk about,
Unknown (43:12):
we definitely didn't slide backwards, but, but I
Lea Turner (43:18):
am the same person, but I've become more me, yes,
and I was always me, but I'm somuch more confident being
myself, because I know that itcreates the right opportunities
for me and brings the rightpeople into my life, and has
made me really happy over thelast few years. And I know both
of us have, you know, gone downthe neurodivergent diagnosis
(43:40):
route as well, and that'sdefinitely lifted a lot of my
like, the way I would punishmyself over, well, you're not
very good at that, and you'renot very good at that. I'm like,
it's fine. I'm not good at this,but I'm really good at these
things, yes, so I'm just goingto find other ways of coping, or
people to help me with thethings I'm not good at. And it's
definitely been predominantlybecause of LinkedIn, but the
(44:04):
fact that LinkedIn has enabledme to grow businesses and given
me a voice that I didn't reallyknow I had, and showed me that
people are interested in me if Iallow them the opportunity to be
interested. Yeah, and I knowthat when we spoke, there was a
definite theme of, no one'sgonna really be interested in
what I've got to say. And, yeah,I cannot. I don't think I've
(44:26):
ever had a client that has notsaid that. Yeah, and it's been
hundreds over the years.Everybody thinks that, but no
one can be interested in you ifyou don't share anything. Yeah,
right. It's like walking into anetworking event and standing in
the corner and saying, No onespoke to me. Yeah? I was like,
well, you can go over there andstart conversations, and you
(44:48):
have to, even if you're anintrovert, like, if you just put
a little bit out there, yeah,people start showing an
interest, and you go, Oh,actually, yeah, there are other
people like me here, yeah. Andso I just do it again, yeah?
And. And there's more, you'relike, oh, wow, and your
confidence just grows. And it'sbeen a massive privilege to
witness your evolution. And youknow, for us, for us to develop
(45:09):
a genuine friendship as well.We've met on many occasions.
We've definitely drunk a few toomany cocktails and eaten, what
was it? Falafel or chips? Cheesychips? Probably, yeah, but it's
been, it's been a real privilegeand a joy to do that. And I
think that's another thing thatcomes from a presence on
LinkedIn and social media ingeneral, is the genuine
friendships that you build. Yes,if you're open to it, and both
(45:32):
of us can say confidently thatwe've made many friends from the
social media. I mean, you justshare the best memes on
Instagram, which always make melaugh, but LinkedIn has
definitely been the place whereour friendships have hugely
evolved, and the workopportunities have come with
that. So it's been a realpleasure getting to chat to you
today, and I'm sorry thatBronson, my co host, abandoned
(45:53):
us halfway. You're the firstguest that you signed that to,
actually, oh no, he
Michelle Hartley (45:59):
kissed me and then abandoned you
Lea Turner (46:01):
sensed you're a campus and that's what it was.
Thank you so much for making thetrip up here, Michelle, it's
been an absolute honor, and I'msure people are going to really
enjoy the giggles of thisepisode and all the swearing, of
course. Thank you. Thanks.Before you go, I just need to
tell you about our brilliantpodcast sponsor that aligns so
well with our own mission. Atthe halt while seasoned
(46:21):
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I'll see you next time you
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