March 31, 2025 • 47 mins
Becoming a business owner is not the only way to work for yourself and be successful.
For some freelancing is the perfect blend of freedom and fulfillment.
My guest in the episode, Grace Hall, has skipped traditional employment from the off, choosing the brave move to work for herself straight out of uni. And she has been an incredible success!
5 years into her freelancing career as a copywriter there have been lots of ups and downs. Grace shares the realities of working for herself, from client management, to pricing strategies, including her own particular “tax” she adds to jobs she knows will be tough.
At times she has struggled with self-doubt but shares key ways freelancers or business owners can own that fact they are good at what they do.
Grace is testament that you can choose your own happiness over societal pressures, so listen up to find out how she does it!
“It’s not all about the money” – Grace
You’ll hear about:
- How starting out as a freelancer can be daunting but rewarding.
- Freelancing offers flexibility and ownership that agency work may not.
- Staying true to your values is crucial in a competitive environment.
- It's okay to prioritise personal happiness over societal pressures to grow.
00:42 - An introduction to Grace and her work
01:55 - Straight from university to freelancing
07:28 - Realising "I'm good at this"
11:19 - Getting used to asking for testimonials
16:32 - The moments you want to chuck it all in
24:12 - Overcoming challenging clients
30:38 - Becoming an agency vs freelancing
33:31 - Keeping your head in the entrepreneurial world
38:58 - The impacts of AI on the market
41:08 - Messages from Grace's younger business self
Connect with Grace:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/grace-r-hall/
Crying Over Copy - https://cryingovercopy.com/
Connect with me:
My website - https://leaturner.co.uk/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/lea-turner/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/leaturnerholt
Find out about The HoLT:
The HoLT - https://www.the-holt.com/
The HoLT on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/theholt
The HoLT on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/theholtcommunity/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/theholtcommunity
The Vault - https://www.the-holt.com/vault
Join The Holt waiting list - https://www.the-holt.com/waitlist
This podcast is sponsored by QDos. Use the code LEA10 at the checkout to get your discount when signing up - https://my.qdoscontractor.com/code/10255/115219
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Grace Hall (00:00):
I enjoy the service
(00:01):
delivery of being a freelancer.
It's one of those things where
it's kind of like growth isn't
always a linear thing. You know,
to go to
Lea Turner (00:10):
Stephen Barton
infographic, fuck off.
Grace Hall (00:16):
That's actually
upset me. We're gonna talk about
this later.
Lea Turner (00:22):
I Hi Grace,
welcome to the HoLT Survival
guide for Small Businesses.
Firstly, before we get into all
the nitty gritty stuff that I
know we're going to enjoy
covering. Can you tell us a
(00:43):
little bit about who you are and
what you do?
Grace Hall (00:46):
Yes, I can. I'm a
freelance copywriter and content
writer since around late 2019
and I primarily work with
business owners and sometimes
agencies. But you know, which do
you prefer? Mostly business
owners, because they're the
decision makers. I don't really
often like having to have like
the middle person, but, you
(01:07):
know,
Lea Turner (01:09):
I find it harder to
convince the middle person or
the middle person then has to go
off and ask somebody else for
permission, who usually is quite
clueless as to the value that
you offer, who you are, maybe
they're not familiar with you
and your brand, and you end up
going around in circles. It's
like
Grace Hall (01:26):
an accountability
hierarchy as well, because
usually the person that makes or
breaks a relationship with an
agency is your point of contact.
So if they're not very
communicative, or if they don't
have good feedback with the
person they're accountable to,
even if the work is good, easy
work, it suddenly becomes
difficult. So
Lea Turner (01:45):
yeah, I've
definitely found the same thing
over the years. So you've been
doing this for five years, and I
know we know each other off
camera as well. You came
straight out of university into
freelancing, which is a bold
move. So you've literally never
been employed in a in a company.
(02:06):
What, what was the, what was the
story as to how, why that came
about? Why did you suddenly go
straight into freelancing? So
Grace Hall (02:13):
I think it's kind of
like a lot of people go to
university, and they you kind of
get in your head about what you
should do as a degree, because
you're aware that it's like so
when I was there, it was nine
grand a year just to study,
yeah, just to get some
PowerPoint presentations, and
that's not including all the
rent and the bills and
everything. So I stayed at home.
I commuted in, but it was so
(02:34):
expensive just in terms of your
student loans and all of that.
But all of that cycles would be
here all day. I think it was
that thing of I studied
psychology accounts and
psychotherapist, always
psychology. I did have the
intention when I was younger,
and, you know, far more innocent
to the world, that I was going
to be a therapist, because you
have a lot of friends that have
(02:55):
mental health conditions, you
self struggle with mental
health, and you like, that's my
purpose in life. And then I
start studying it, and I'm
thinking, Okay, well, I'd have
to do two years, three years of
a master's degree, more debt,
yeah. And then usually have to
do placements. It's very
competitive as well. Generally,
you'll have to do a lot of
volunteer work alongside your
(03:16):
studies. And I just thought,
this is not something you go
into lightly. So what can you do
now? And in typical fashion, I
basically procrastinate until my
third year, and was like, You're
gonna have to get a job suit,
you know, you're gonna have to
do something. And both of my
siblings are in marketing, older
siblings. So I was like, Okay,
if they can do it, I can do it,
(03:36):
you know, right? Not in a
disrespectful way. But my older
sister was in kind of content
writing, site copywriting, and
she was like, you know, you
spend all your time writing
essays and doing written
content, why can't you apply it
to that? I was that, that's
fantastic. Let me go and apply
for all these roles. I cannot
tell you how many I applied for.
(03:57):
Really, I'd be lucky if I heard
that just to get a rejection,
because even though they were
marketed as entry level roles,
that's what they wrote. Was
like, two years experience, one
year experience, you have to
have a degree in it. You have to
have this. And I was just kind
of like, what type of job is
this where you can upskill on
(04:19):
the job and use your
transferable skills first, you
know. But unfortunately, none of
them really wanted anything to
do with me, so I ended up
hearing back from somebody that
was running an internship, and
it was unpaid. It was a dental
marketing agency, fun, yeah, and
I got a lot of like experience,
(04:40):
kind of trying my hand out a
little bit of everything,
because I didn't know
definitively I wanted to do copy
or content when I started, I
actually thought it might have
been social media, which I think
I now know, would be a terrible
choice for me. Since I whenever
anyone's talking about trends,
I'm like, How old am I? Again, I
have no idea what you're talking
about. You know? I
Lea Turner (05:00):
think knowing you,
you definitely are secretly a
six year old in a 20 something
body.
Grace Hall (05:06):
Yes, told when I was
12 that I was an old soul,
depressed and anxious about the
state of the world.
Lea Turner (05:12):
I see it reflected
because I'm like that, like I'm
a cup of tea and slippers at
home with the dog, not a out
partying, although I did do that
in my 20s, both so so you had
the internship and then didn't
earn any money from it. No,
which isn't really helpful to
(05:32):
pay off the university debts for
the degree you didn't want to
pursue.
Grace Hall (05:37):
I did want to pursue
it. And in fairness, plenty of
involve a lot with consumer
psychology and stuff. And I did
do a lot of writing for mental
health related stuff as well.
But it was one of those things
where it was kind of like,
Whatever option did I have in it
is a great privilege to be able
to do unpaid work, you know,
because I'm staying at home
still now, yeah. Like to add, I
(05:58):
do pay towards bills, not a Doss
about, you know, I'm working,
but, um, back then it was just
like, What do I want to do? What
can I get out of this? And it
was in that office space,
because it was for
entrepreneurs, business owners,
that I met someone else who then
started me on the path of
working in like, mental health
related content, copper, and
(06:19):
then Lewis, who we're all
familiar with, with his agency,
like gold media, started doing
some work for him, and that was
when I officially set up as a
freelancer, getting paid for the
work. So so it
Lea Turner (06:31):
was being around
other people running their own
businesses that really sparked
that first. And that's
something, I mean, it's the
whole reason that we've got this
podcast is that there are so
many solo business owners out
there, freelancers, small
business owners, that don't have
the opportunity, or don't put
themselves in the position to be
around business owners to
(06:51):
realise that, because we all
have this, and I know because I
did it myself. I had this kind
of this must only be happening
to me. This isn't happening to
everybody else, and the minute I
realised that it that my
experiences weren't unique, and
I felt less alone, that spurred
me on and gave me more
confidence, because it's like,
(07:12):
oh, it's not just me that doubts
myself constantly. It's not just
me that's struggling with this,
that and the other. It's a very
normal part of the life of a
business owner, at least until
you're so successful that you
can sit on your yacht all day.
So tell me in this journey. So
it's five years. I hate the word
journey. I'm sorry, but it's
been five years. What has been,
(07:35):
would you say a really
significant like, what sticks
out as a significant turning
point in being this very young,
because what are you now? Like
2026 26 so you're 21 when you
started out as a freelancer. You
must have learned a lot about
yourself over the last five
years. But is there a point that
(07:57):
you sort of felt, I'm actually
quite good at this, like, I'm
figuring this out, and it's
going quite well. I think
Grace Hall (08:07):
it's probably when I
started asking for testimonials,
because I feel like when you
start out, you're not in the
habit. You just want to deliver
the work and kind of piss off
when it's a one off project.
Yeah. And then when I started
asking for the feedback, I was
like, oh shit, look, who's at
the job. That's
Lea Turner (08:23):
brilliantly, like,
that's really interesting.
Because I think that's something
that people really struggle to
do.
Grace Hall (08:29):
Asking for feedback
is intimidating. Because even
though it's usually, obviously,
at the end of the project,
you've been told the work squad,
it's all signed off, there's
still part of you that is, like,
convinced that they're suddenly
going to be like crock of shit.
Do not work with this person. I
would not recommend. I mean, in
reality, you know, people are
more than happy. And also it's
(08:49):
really good for marketing
purposes, because you get a real
sense of why they came to you
what problems you solve. Because
it's not just like the writing.
You know, I get a lot of
feedback on the way that I
onboard clients, because I have
unintentionally worked with a
lot of people that have ADHD,
yeah, and I thought that was
very interesting, because I to
me, I don't think about it, you
know, if you want to send me a
(09:10):
voice note, instead of filling
out a brief just type in all of
that's fine. If you want a video
call, great. If you want to
facilitate primarily over email,
that's fine as well, so I hadn't
thought about that, and that was
another part of testimonials
that really affirmed to me,
like, you're doing this part
right? That's
Lea Turner (09:28):
interesting, because
that's not something I've ever
thought about. But I never had,
like, a rigid system, if people
like, there was a ways you could
apply to work with me. But if
that didn't suit you, I never
had a problem with someone
emailing me or or sending me a
voice note on LinkedIn or
something, I tend not to give
out my phone number, but like
sending a voice note out on
LinkedIn, I never bought it.
(09:49):
Never bothered me. Like how you
would choose to engage and,
well, that's the thing.
Grace Hall (09:53):
You don't really
think about it, but clients do,
because a lot of them will say,
you know, when I was looking at
all. The people and their type
of content, like, what attracts
me to yours was the fact that
you state, it's it's adaptable
to me. You know, it doesn't
bother me. It doesn't make any
difference. Like a voice note, I
find it very funny, because it's
(10:13):
almost always the people that
sending voice notes, like on
their treadmill at the desk, the
talking, the drinking, the
walking, all at the same time. I
love it because I'm like, if
it's not natural for you, I'm
going to struggle to get what I
need out of you for the copy. So
if you're forcing yourself to
sit there and type at a laptop
(10:33):
when you cannot concentrate, and
that's not your natural pattern
of thinking, you're not really
going to be writing accurately,
whereas, if you're comfortable
talking it through, your
personality comes through as
well. And then that's very
useful. Yeah,
Lea Turner (10:46):
you can pick up the
intonation in their voice, the
excitements, the things when
they talk about something that
it gets, you know, you hear the
voice lower and them less
enthusiastic about certain
parts, or get a bit ranty. And
that's all really especially
with your background in like
psychology, you're probably
picking up on all of those
little changes in how they speak
(11:09):
and react to certain things,
because you can then twist that
into how you put their voice
across in the content or the
copy that you create. How did
you feel when you first started
asking for testimonies from
people, was that, like, a proper
ick,
Grace Hall (11:25):
yeah, a bit nervous.
I mean, I have anxiety anyway.
It's not officially diagnosed,
but I've read the DSM, yeah,
whatever, yeah. Literally, that
was the realisation that made me
want to go into psychology in
the first place. Was at college
at a level, when I saw the
diagnostic criteria for anxiety.
And I was like, tick, tick,
tick, tick. Of a friend was
like, I don't think you're meant
(11:48):
to be ticking. That to be like a
chat list. And I was like, so
for me, it was like that moment
of, oh, I don't know. And then I
thought, well, how are you going
to have any social proof because
you're there wax and lyrical
online about how good website
copy requires proof. You need to
reaffirm and validate what
(12:08):
you're saying. Don't just show
it like to be in a hypocrite.
Yeah, basically, you know which
is fun, like I can do what I do
as I say, not as I do. Did you
realise
Lea Turner (12:19):
that yourself, or
did somebody else point that out
to you? Because I know
definitely there's been times
where people said, Yeah, but you
don't do that. And I've gone,
what do you mean? No, I actually
don't. I need to do that as
well.
Grace Hall (12:29):
I think it was just
one of those where I was
thinking about stuff to post on
LinkedIn, and I was like, you've
never posted any client
feedback. And I was like, she's
not fucking asked for it unless
she's seen shot in like, an
email, which I love, like, it
doesn't have to be this massive
case study. I love when it's
just, you know, a message that's
like, totally, you've totally
got this nailed it. That's
(12:50):
great. But obviously, again,
when I started doing a list of
questions, that was when it
really got better. Because it
was like, Why did you get in
touch? What pain points were you
struggling with? Which ones that
I help you solve. Like, how did
you feel after? And it really
Lea Turner (13:05):
helps to guide if
you are somebody who wants to
niche, it does help to guide
you, because you see, not only
these are the clients that I
like to work with, but these are
the clients that I get the best
results from. And you see the
the like overlaps and you and
patterns emerging, or are
certainly I've have done like
(13:27):
I've seen based on how I've
experienced working with certain
clients, and then seeing the
results, I've gone, okay, well,
these are the types of people
that really dedicate themselves
to what they've learned and
really put in the effort. So I
can start narrowing down, saying
who are the people that I want
to work with. So this testimony,
I wasn't expecting you to say
that, and I think, and not just
(13:48):
necessarily because you said
that, that was a real turning
point in how you feel, not just
the formal testimonials, but the
good you know, someone sends an
email back. Someone's like my
newsletter writer, if someone
sends me an email going, that
was an amazing email. Really
love what you did that, I
forward that to him so he can
see the impact that he's had as
(14:10):
well, or I take a screenshot.
But when I get feedback, that's
about something that I've done,
I add it to It's so cheesy, but
I call a smile file, and I have
a smile file that's literally
just content thing, nice things
people have said about me. So on
the days that I feel like I'm
terrible at what I do and I'm
doubting everything and wanting
to chuck my laptop out of the
(14:30):
window, I go in and look at
Grace Hall (14:32):
it and go, I thought
mine's called Matt at a buy
folder, at a boy folder.
Lea Turner (14:40):
Fiona, amounts are
we? Oh, my Fion, Fiona Bradley's
fault. She called it a smile
file. And I was like, that's
amazing. That works very well. I
Grace Hall (14:47):
feel like that's
that's too happy. Go Lucky for
me, it has to be,
Lea Turner (14:51):
you're much more of
a sound, and that your entire
brand on LinkedIn, and it's
predominant. Where you are,
reluctantly, but that's where
you where you spend your time to
market. You are very sarcastic.
Your sense of humour is
incredibly dry, and you do
embody this sort of humorous,
grumpy old lady type vibe with
(15:12):
your acceptable but it's worked
so well for you, even your brand
names tell people what your
brand name is, crying over
copper that is so you. It
embodies everything that I've
learned about you and your brand
because you're just very, very
deadpan and very you pick on
things in a humorous way. So
(15:33):
it's never, it never comes
across as bullying or deeply
unkind. It comes from a good
place, but I you do have me
crying over coffee, but like
tears of laughter, and I
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first policy subject to
eligibility. So we've talked
about the turning point where
you realised you were really
good at it. What has been a
moment? Because I don't think
anyone's ever told me one of
these moments that hasn't been
(16:38):
hugely relatable. What's been a
moment where you've just wanted
to chuck it all in and thought,
Maybe this isn't for me, maybe
running my own business isn't
for me. Or has there been a
moment like that?
Grace Hall (16:52):
I mean, I feel like
whenever you have quiet periods,
you just start to think, this is
the fucking waste my last year
in particular. I think everyone
I spoke to as well that was more
on the freelancing side of
things, was saying, like, is so
competitive now, just to get any
type of work, and you will
always have quite a month, and
(17:12):
then when you're left to kind of
think about it. In the early
years, I used to just start
getting really panicky, whereas
now might focus on batching up
your own content, you know, do
business type stuff. But that's
when I would start just
thinking, My God, is it really
worth all this stress? You know,
I'm not getting paid for
holidays. I'm not getting paid
if I'm sick. You know, it's
(17:35):
stressful, and then you've got
to worry about saving up for
your tax bill, your pension or
whatever lights talking about
that, because it's fucking
boring.
Lea Turner (17:43):
Yeah, it's true. I
just had to pay my tax bill
yesterday, and it my my personal
tax bill is now more than I used
to earn in a year, which makes
me want to cry. I'm and it's,
you know, you should feel proud
that you're able to pay that
much tax and put back into the
system in the country that you
(18:05):
live in, and blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, but it still hurts.
It's just
Grace Hall (18:08):
the fact that it's
like, if it was like regular
employment, and I never saw that
money, yeah, it would be fine.
But it's the fact that you see
it, you get it, and then you
wave it,
Lea Turner (18:18):
floats up into the
tax man's pocket, and you can
go, oh my god, I'm going to miss
you. It's like, on
Grace Hall (18:23):
a deeper level, I
feel like the moments where I've
sat there and thought, oh my
god, it's just when it's just
small. I've never had any
massive issues with clients.
Very lucky in that regard,
whenever it's stuff like late
payments, it's usually not out
of like, neglect or nastiness,
it's just forgetfulness.
Lea Turner (18:42):
Well, you do work
with lots of ADHD people, so
that's understandable. I'm I
don't care.
Grace Hall (18:46):
I'll send an email
and be like, not knock, not to
be the tax man. But there is
this advice, if you don't mind
paying
Lea Turner (18:52):
it now, I'm the
either pay it immediately or
I've forgotten about it, and my
my team will know that if I've
not paid it within 24 hours,
remind me, because I've
definitely
Grace Hall (19:02):
forgotten sniff and
malicious. But I think for me,
the it's when it's a lack of
alignment with clients. So
there's been a couple where it's
not that they're like an out and
out bad client, it's just that
their way of communicating and
mine just does not mesh. And
oftentimes it might be because
they're from a very corporate
background, very blunt and
(19:24):
straightforward, but not in a
way that really aligns with the
kind of bluntness and
straightforwardness I'm used to.
And it's kind of like yours
comes
Lea Turner (19:33):
with a warmth and
humour underlining it, right?
Whereas, if they're just It
depends. It's the intention
behind it isn't it is get this
done minion. Intention is like,
no,
Grace Hall (19:45):
yeah, because it was
one of those where I'd gotten an
email from this client in
particular, where we'd been
trying to figure out whether
what I wanted to deliver would
be delivered in page by page, or
a few pages at a time. And I
think in the confu. Version,
they just assumed that it meant
all of them delivered at once.
And there was kind of this tone
of, like, where's the rest?
(20:06):
Like, and I had to take, like,
the email content itself. I had
to get someone else to look at
it and say, Do you think that
this is a little bit snarky, a
little bit rude, because I
always have to check because I
think when you're in the moment,
you can take it personally.
They're like, yeah, it's a bit
like the whole email so that
okay, I'm gonna take half now
(20:26):
away from my laptop and not
react. I'm going to respond and
then how to reply, basically
saying, like, that's not really
how we were actually going to do
it. Here's what's been done so
far. This will be on by this
time. If you want to have a call
to discuss it, but it was very
micro manager, and I don't like
that, because my whole
philosophy on work is you will
(20:46):
hear from me relentlessly in the
build up to it, I will tell you
everything we're going to be
doing step by step, and then
when it actually comes to me
doing the service, I will piss
off, or you will not hear from
me until I have a draft unless I
need to ask you something, I'll
maybe drop a message or an email
saying, Here's where I'm at, if
it's a longer one,
Lea Turner (21:04):
so you really let
them know the process, so
there's no What
Grace Hall (21:08):
the hell is going
on? Yeah. Why haven't I heard I
know for me personally, I'm not
at a point where I can just,
like, outsource, just like that.
You know, it's one of those
things where it's a significant
investment for me, if I pay for
someone to do something, it's
not like, it's just money that I
can just piss away. So I do,
when I do that, I want to know
what's going on, yeah. So when
(21:28):
it comes to client work, I'm
like, No, here's, here's what's
going on, here's when it's going
to be delivered by but this
person was just like, constantly
wanted calls 50 plus comments on
a Google Doc. Yeah, yeah. I
opened it, and I was absolutely
flabbergasted. I was like, What
the fuck is this? I've never,
ever had that, not one that's
(21:48):
mine. And I honestly, it was one
of those moments where I sat
there and thought, I don't want
to fucking do this anymore.
Like, what am I doing? And then
I was like, You know what?
Actually, I don't think I'm the
problem in this situation, as
bad as that sound? So I was
like, I just, I had to sit
there, and my sister, God bless
her, is basically the person
that like support with when I go
(22:09):
through these peaks and troughs.
And I was just like, it's not
music. It's not me. It's just
that, no, I just think that you
don't gel. It's just, you know,
it's just one of those client
situations where you just kind
of want to sign off on the work
and go your separate ways. And
this client did come back at a
later date, maybe, like a year.
Yes, I don't know, yeah, because
(22:30):
at the time, as well as
thinking, oh, you know, it's
just, just get the money, it
should be a shot, and I was
like, I'm not fucking doing it
Lea Turner (22:35):
again. Was it how
far into your Freelancer
business? So I think that was
Grace Hall (22:39):
about 2023, so yeah,
a little while in, and I think
for me, it was such a kind of
significant moment, because I'd
not really had that much of a
significant difference before in
terms of communication, that was
Lea Turner (22:54):
where you became
brave enough to go. I'm not
going to work if I get that
vibe, that red flag from a
future, not that that client's a
red flag, but for you
personally, they were a red
flag. And so if you ever got
those vibes in future, you were,
you were strong enough to go,
actually, I don't want the money
because the stress isn't worth
Grace Hall (23:16):
you're paying like a
cost when you do it. So even
though you get paid money like
the financial aspects of it
doesn't really compensate for
the mental toll. I feel like,
you know,
Lea Turner (23:26):
and it's also like,
I notice with the freelancers
that are in my membership
community, when they're pricing
things, sometimes they're not
taking into consideration. And
actually, down the studio
manager, we were talking about
this yesterday, weren't we,
it's, when you're pricing a
package for somebody, you're
(23:46):
thinking about, how long is it
going to take me, how many
potential revisions am I going
to need? How much is the actual
sort of research that you need
to do? But you might just think,
oh, it's going to take me three
hours to do the project, but you
forget that you need to factor
in the potential that they're
going to want masses of
(24:07):
revisions and having comments
and constant back and forth.
Because you don't, you assume
people are going to be kind of
easier than they actually are at
the beginning. I think what have
you how have you overcome you
just said about contracts, how
you overcome
Grace Hall (24:22):
those? So in the
contract, it's basically like
the exact deliverables, and it
says you're allowed two rounds
of amends. I think I've adjusted
it now it's like a round of
edits and a round of amends.
Because to me, like amends are
just small little things, yeah,
or the wording of this one would
maybe change it or the technical
element, and amend to, like, the
(24:43):
slightly bigger bits that you
focus on, but you only get two,
and it specifies anything
outside of that will be a
separate cost that we can
discuss because it's outside of
the scope of work. Yeah, I've
never had to actually chase
anyone up on that. And I mean,
in fairness, I think, as with a
lot of freelancers, you will end
up with. Sometimes where they
can work in vdhc clients, I
would say, if you want to look
(25:04):
at the document in one go and
then leave it and then I'll take
all that's fine if you do bit by
bit. I'm not going to class that
as three separate amendment when
you've gone in and out, in and
out. Yeah. But another kind of
failsafe that I'm not sure
there's, like, a nice way to
word it, so I'll just say it the
way that I say it. There's the
twat tax, where, if there's a
client that's kind of like a bit
(25:26):
bit of a knob, or even, I've
seen twat tax, even when it's
something you don't like writing
about, or something that's going
to take a little longer, you
just add a bit more money on
what you're charging, because
you're accounting for the fact
that it's a bit more strenuous.
I've, talked so if you realise
it or not, when someone's gotten
in touch, you've been like,
adding another zero on this
(25:48):
package. I think, like, the
worst
Lea Turner (25:49):
thing is, though,
when you Well, I say the worst
thing, I've definitely added
large amounts to things thinking
they'll say no because they
won't want to do it. So I'll
just add a really, make it a
really high number, because I
don't want to do it, and they're
never going to pay that. So that
just and then they say yes.
You're like, oh, it's like
Grace Hall (26:10):
that constant to and
fro. And as a freelancer, where
you kind of start to get your
feet with price, and when you
just start going, Okay, I'll
just charge this amount, see how
it goes. And then when they say
yes, too quickly, like, fuck
yeah, I should have charged
more, but then you have no idea
whether that was just the right
amount for them. Yeah. I feel as
though you spend so much time
getting in your own head about
it that it's like you start to
(26:31):
forget that. It's like you can
increase your prices with
whichever client and just say,
well, this is for this package.
This is bespoke. It covers this.
But I feel like the second you
fall into a trap of assuming, oh
my God, I didn't charge enough?
Oh my God, I didn't charge
enough. It's never going to seem
like enough, because you're not
comfortable enough to jump in
right away, starting from a
certain amount. If that makes
Lea Turner (26:52):
I think there's a
real balance when it comes to
pricing in terms of, like, Is
this in do I feel like this is
enough. Like, will I be happy
earning this amount of money for
this many hours work with this
client on this project, and if
you're happy with that, great,
but then you do have to think
about bringing it up gradually
(27:14):
so that you can earn more, but
not so much that you feel really
under pressure to perform like
better than you feel you're
capable of well, because I
always feel
Grace Hall (27:26):
like too far like,
yeah, you start it almost
impacts your delivery of the
surface, because you feel like
you've overcharged and you're
not worthy of charging, whereas
it's that perfect threshold
where it's outside your comfort
zone, but not so much so that
you actually start to feel so I
get that
Lea Turner (27:42):
with speaking
speaking events, people like you
should be charging five figures
for speaking events. I'm like,
No, I bloody won't, because I
don't feel like and that's not
me having imposter syndrome. I
am not experienced enough to be
on a stage and demand five
figures. Yes, I might bring an
audience, but I know that I'm
going to feel so cripplingly
(28:03):
anxious about not being paid
that amount of money. People
Grace Hall (28:07):
on LinkedIn love
saying stuff like, charge you
with what the fuck does that
mean?
Lea Turner (28:13):
It's kind of like
it's very vague. It's a nice
sound bite, isn't it, to each
other, but, but you need to
actually work out, what will
people pay? What do you bring to
the table? That's like for
influencers, for example, it's
not just what's the package
you're delivering, it's how many
eyeballs are coming onto the
brand with that, and how much
(28:33):
time are you spending responding
to comments to boost the
visibility. There's lots of
other factors to think about,
but people do get it wrong. And
I do see people just throwing
out either really, really low
amounts or really high amounts
in your life, or people who
absolutely mug people off, where
a course is 250 pounds for three
months, and then they suddenly
(28:53):
slash it to 20 quid. And you're
like, Are you kidding me?
Grace Hall (28:57):
Just though it's
like, when it comes to pricing,
just with clients, you can
always start off higher and move
lower if you're willing to
compromise for work that, yeah,
that appeals to you. You can't
go up once you've gone down. No,
but it's like one of the most
logical things you can do,
really, is just think, what kind
of salary do I want to be on?
How much would I have to earn a
month for that? And what can I
(29:18):
deliver service wise to account
for that? Now, it's not always
going to work that way, because
at the end of the day, the sales
and all of that required, but it
also forces you to sit down and
think, am I have I actually got
the capacity to deliver this
service twice a month, or this
one four times a month? Yeah.
And then when you actually think
about that, you get a good idea
of which services you actually
(29:38):
fucking hate. And you don't know
why you're doing
Lea Turner (29:40):
but you also have to
factor in the time for for your
brain, so especially something
like content creation,
copywriting, if you are tied to
your desk eight hours a day,
chucking out financial copy for
blogs or whatever you are going
to reach Wednesday and want to,
like, walk off a play. Life
(30:00):
because you need the space to
touch grass, go outside, have
fresh air, rest, because your
brain cannot be working like
that, especially if it's not
your finances. You said, That's
not one of your favourite areas.
It takes much more concentration
(30:22):
trying to write some an entire
website in a couple of days on
finances. You're probably not
going to want to do much else
that week, because you're going
to need the rest. I don't know
about you, but I'm not creative.
If I'm tired, I have to have
some good sleep.
Grace Hall (30:37):
But like the
service, delivery is my
favourite part about it. I love
having a stacks to do, list of
stuff to write, because it's
like being able to switch from
one thing to the other, and, you
know, not get too stagnant with
it when it's just one project at
a time. Yeah, it kind of drags a
bit. Like, if I could just get
someone's sales for me, I'd do
it. But as you say, like at the
(30:59):
moment, as a freelancer, I don't
want to be an agency. I don't
want to be a limited company. I
feel as though there's so much
pressure on platforms like
LinkedIn that it's like, you
have to get bigger, you have to
expand, you have to hire people
to be successful. And then I'm
like, right? But what kind of
knob would I be if I jumped into
that without thinking about it?
Hire someone and then after,
fire them a month later. And
(31:21):
then do
Lea Turner (31:21):
you feel like that's
something that you will do
eventually you just want to stay
as a freelancer for,
Grace Hall (31:27):
yeah, for the
foreseeable Yeah, I'm not like
thinking 10 years in advance
person. For me, just thinking
about the next couple of years.
I'm happy being a freelancer
like for I've seen people who've
tried to go down the agency
route and hiring people and the
toll that's taken on them,
(31:47):
because you forget that when
you're a freelancer, the
blessing and the curse is that
it's you. You're accountable for
everything, yeah, and that's
great in one sense, because it's
like you have ownership over
everything. You're the one
deciding what you do and don't
do. I feel like when you take on
the responsibility of something
like an employee, you might be
more prone to working with
clients that aren't a good fit,
(32:09):
and you might be more prone to
doing work you don't like doing
because there's another
financial stressing out on you.
Yeah? And it's not referring
someone as like a burden, but
the financial burden of having
employees massive, yeah? So I
just No, it doesn't appeal to
me.
Lea Turner (32:24):
But how is it? And
because this is a real character
strength that you clearly have
at 26 years old, you are
surrounded on LinkedIn, and you
know, you live in Manchester,
it's a very entrepreneurial hub
of people. We're surrounded by
people that are running towards
success, they want to be made.
How do you sort of keep your
(32:46):
head on that? This is what I
want. I'm happy running my
Freelancer business, making
enough money to get by your I
mean, I guess it sort of helps.
You're still living with your
family, because you haven't got
that kind of additional pressure
of,
Grace Hall (33:03):
oh yeah. I mean,
renting is not for people aren't
in relationships, that's for
sure. Like in Manchester, you're
talking what, 1500 a month, not
even including, like madness,
additional utilities. But how
Lea Turner (33:16):
have you stayed in
your lane and not got swept away
like the vast majority of
people, because I have this
conversation all the time with
people saying, but I need to do
this, but I need I'm like, why
are you making enough money to
live? Are you happy? So why do
why do you need to go for them?
And I've had to to rein myself
in when I find myself getting,
like, lost in this, this, I
(33:38):
don't know what to even call it
bullshit. Yeah, it is a sea of
bullshit. It's just like
everybody else is racing,
racing, racing, like, What's the
hurry? Why am I in such a rush?
I can do this at my own pace.
But at 26 I don't mean that to
sound patronising. So many
people are getting lost in this
buzz that are in that sort of
entrepreneurial world. I have to
grow this. I need to reach,
(33:59):
reach six figures, seven
figures, eight figures, before
I'm 30, you You haven't got lost
in that. And what do you think
it is about you or how you're
living your life that helps you
to not not get lost in that? I
mean,
Grace Hall (34:13):
I think some of it's
been on LinkedIn Since 2019, a
lot of the types of people who
dive into that and don't
actually do a good job and lie
about how much you're earning to
sell. Like, oh, here's how I
made. Six figures. You need to
pay me 10 grand to teach you. I
just think you're a knob. And
that's just not for me. And on
(34:33):
top of that, it's like I enjoy
again, like the service delivery
of being a freelancer. I think
for me as well. It's one of
those things where it's kind of
like growth isn't always a
linear thing. You know, to
Lea Turner (34:47):
Stephen Bartlett
infographic, fuck off.
Grace Hall (34:53):
That's actually
upset. We're
Unknown (34:56):
gonna talk about this
later. I.
Grace Hall (35:00):
Four point being
like, when I've spoken to people
who are actual business owners,
limited business owners, like
it's a lot of it is smoke and
mirrors, because you're not
going to post about when you're
having a year where you're not
sure whether you can pay your
employees. You're not going to
post about all of those times
where you think I should have
just stayed running it by myself
(35:20):
for a little while longer, and
having that clarity of, like, a
lot of what is being posted
online about why it's great to
grow is ignoring all of the
super shit bits about it. And
for me, I'm like, the shit parts
of being a freelancer are still
infinitely easier than the shit
parts of being somebody that's
running an agency with multiple
employees. And to me, it's like,
(35:42):
you can always go up that way if
you want to, but it's very hard
to scale back down if you go
there without thinking it
through first. Because it's it's
not just like the fact that
you'd feel bad for doing that,
it's the fact that publicly, you
would have to kind of make some
comment about the fact that
you've suddenly gone from an
agency, multiple employees and
all this. It's like a one
(36:02):
person. I
Lea Turner (36:03):
see that happening
on LinkedIn as well, and I you
know, you'll see someone
announced, it's like, quiet
quitting for entrepreneurs. And
six months later, you're like,
What happened to that thing that
they were doing? Like, oh, they
were gonna do this. They were
gonna do
Grace Hall (36:15):
that. Oh, a few of
those, the it's like they start
off at LinkedIn girls round, and
then all of a Tiktok agency,
like, What the fuck? Just throw
a
Lea Turner (36:24):
load of spaghetti at
the wall, see which one sticks.
But that's the
Grace Hall (36:27):
thing I'm like, if I
think there's just nothing wrong
with just saying that's not for
me to be responsible for other
people, like, it's a bit of a
bar late being responsible for
just me sometimes, you know. So
it's like, just me is fine, and
that can change, and that will
be fine as well as for right
now. Just know it's
Lea Turner (36:45):
I chose the same
route because I tried having an
employee, and I was like, oh
god, I've got to keep telling
her what to do all the time.
This is not fun. People don't
Grace Hall (36:53):
realise this.
Management goes into like, you
can't just say, Here's your
role. Get going. You know, you
have to onboard them. You have
to make sure they have
everything they need to get
going. And you can't just leave
them to it. So I outsourcing
where that's someone's bread and
butter. That's their job. Yeah,
when it's an employee, you have
to update them on how the
business is doing, all the new
(37:13):
updates in terms of clients,
what they need to be doing, and
you will need to hold the hand
for it. And I think some people
have gone into it, and they're
just not equipped to have that,
you know? They don't want to do
that. They don't want to be
somebody who sat there doing
circle time at their
Lea Turner (37:29):
own I'm absolutely
not that kind of person. And
having a team of freelancers
where everybody knows what they
need to do for me, I know, I
literally just fire out WhatsApp
throughout the day, and I never
even say, like, a time scale. If
it's urgent, I say this is when
I need this by this one's an
important one, but that's so
rare that I have to specify a
time period. It's just when you
(37:51):
get to it, which inevitably was
usually within 48 hours for all
of them, because I'm not in a
situation where much is in a
rush, other than you know, if
there's member issues in the
community, someone can't log in
that one gets
Grace Hall (38:02):
about copywriters
and like, short life or death
words, words on a website,
Lea Turner (38:08):
and you probably
have, like, quite a long lead
time on most of your work
anyway, right? Or they get a
SWAT tax on it. I
Grace Hall (38:15):
think it's one of
those things as well where it's
like, naturally, you're gonna
have periods where it's like
four or five projects back to
back, shorter and longer ones,
and you're like, Yeah, this is
great. And then you'll get one
project that's dragging out, and
you're, oh, my God, but it's
kind of like just part and
parcel of it, really, isn't it?
Like, if, if you don't enjoy
(38:35):
having at least a bit of quiet
time, like, yeah, financially.
Is it great? No. But I feel so
anyone who says that when
they're freelancing, they don't
have quiet periods. I don't know
what you're doing to get that,
unless you have like five
retainer clients, it's going to
happen is,
Lea Turner (38:52):
and I noticed a lot
of copywriters talking about how
quiet things were last year. I
don't know why. Maybe just like
said, The competition's high.
There's a lot of lot more people
coming into the market, into the
job market, that want these sort
of freelance, digital nomad type
jobs. So maybe that's AI, oh
yeah, of course, yeah. I didn't
even think about that. So
(39:13):
nobody, nobody needs you anymore
because they've got chat. GPT,
that'll be the fucking day. No,
it makes me laugh, because with
the transcription that I used to
do, I'd have been out of a job
now, because everybody uses
otter AI, it feels serendipitous
that I left that app as things
like otter AI started coming in.
(39:33):
I thank God I got out when I
did, because my job would now
just be proofreading rather than
all
Grace Hall (39:38):
I'd say is read a
couple things, chat GPT puts out
for a website or both. Tell me
you don't need a copyright. Oh
my
Lea Turner (39:45):
god. The stuff that
it puts in my comment sections
on social media, I'm just like,
Oh my God. People actually think
the amount of of respected CEOs
who I get commenting on my
content on LinkedIn, great. Just
about insert. Topic, you know
that their little $5 an hour,
VA, that they've hired from some
(40:05):
sweatshop in the Philippines is
running everything through chat.
GPT, so problematic
Grace Hall (40:10):
that so many of them
openly talk about that they're
proud
Lea Turner (40:13):
of having people
they pay $5 an hour. I can't
sorry I'm gonna see by people,
but prejudice
Grace Hall (40:21):
really to be like,
I've gone out of my way to hire
someone in a country where I
know I can get a going rate
that's cheaper. I've
Lea Turner (40:29):
got a community
manager that lives in India and
a community manager that lives
in the UK. They're paid the
same,
Grace Hall (40:37):
too many bills about
like you, I've heard this bit of
this amount of money, and it's
like, why are you,
Lea Turner (40:44):
why are you happy to
advertise this? It just makes me
very uncomfortable when I see
we've had a few people, um,
promote them within the
community, and might, no, we
don't. We don't promote
essentially save labour. There's
no way they can actually be
making any money from even,
even? Yeah. Oh, that, it does
(41:05):
make me mad as well. Um, so if
you could give yourself when you
were, let's say one year into
your business, if you could now
give yourself some advice back
at 20 years old, or was it 22
years old, a year into
freelancing, what would you what
would you say to yourself that
(41:25):
would make the next four years
easier?
Grace Hall (41:31):
Probably just, you
know what you fucking doing. You
know what you're talking about.
Like, late last year, I started
doing mentoring for girls in
marketing. I love that. And for
me, it was very validating. The
first few calls I was preparing
for him, I was writing notes and
everything. And then when I
started doing more, and I got
into I was like, you don't even
need to do that, because you
(41:52):
just know, like, when they're
talking about stuff, they're
asking for advice, you already
know. But when you're just in
the business, you don't really
acknowledge how much you know
about it, because it's the same
way when people get really angry
about a client not knowing why
you've made a decision, you
don't know what you don't
fucking know, like they've got
no idea why you've done it that
way, because that's why they've
(42:12):
asked you to do it. So I think
for me, it just be like, you
know, doing something right? You
know, you're still getting
clients, you're getting great
feedback. Just keep doing what
you're doing in terms of Be
assertive about the decisions
you're making the type of
clients you want to work with. I
mean, content on LinkedIn is
fine. LinkedIn as a platform, I
(42:33):
have no idea what's going on
with it half the time, but, you
know, I still get feedback
occasionally from people in DMS.
I just I love your content. Or
I've showed this to my team
because I think it reminded me
how dry my content is. And I was
like, That's lovely. I write
some stupid stuff on there. So
when someone goes out the way to
message something like that, I'm
(42:54):
like, I just want you to know,
but my day has been made. You
know, I'm sitting there like,
Oh,
Lea Turner (42:59):
I love that. It's
funny actually, because I posted
about similar subjects as you,
talking about mentoring last
last week on LinkedIn, and I was
talking about the fact that
everyone says you should always
be the dumbest person in the
room if you're an entrepreneur.
And actually, there's so much
value to being one of the
smarter people in the room,
because you realise how much
you've learned. And when you do
mentoring and you have
(43:19):
conversations with people behind
you. You go, damn, I look at,
look at all this stuff that I've
learned. Didn't even, I don't,
don't even know who this person
is that's falling out of my
mouth right now. You don't
Grace Hall (43:30):
have to be the
dumbest person in the room,
because, hey, you know when
people are dealing with imposter
syndrome already, you don't need
to reinforce that. It's just
about having an openness to the
fact that you won't know
everything. Yeah, all the stuff
that you're familiar with, you
know Well, and that's fine, just
an openness to learning from
people ahead of you and to
trying to help those say behind
you, but you know, earlier on in
(43:50):
that journey, yeah. So to me,
that's been so valuable, because
I feel as though, if you lean
too much in giving advice to
people who are entry level, you
start to think you're like the
pinnacle, yeah? If you keep an
eye ahead of people that you
would admire, and they're doing
things that you just appreciate
and aspire to, then you've kind
(44:10):
of got that nice balance, right?
So I don't know everything, but
I do know
Lea Turner (44:14):
one's ahead to keep
you hungry, and the ones behind
to keep you humble. Or the one
I'm always
Grace Hall (44:18):
hungry, yeah, or the
other you've not heard stomach
noises this entire time. Grand,
hungry for work, obviously.
Lea Turner (44:28):
What is it? Well,
tell us then, because we'll put
this in, who are your favourite
people to work with?
Grace Hall (44:34):
Just whether it's a
early stage or just a small
business, just business owners
that are just passionate about
what they do, because I've
worked with everyone from people
in risk management, like
building, lighting, air service
type stuff, I have to look up a
lot about that traditional
marketing agency owners, people
(44:56):
who would describe themselves as
solopreneurs. But the thing that
they all have in common is that.
They know their business, they
love what they do. They just
don't know how to write for it.
Yeah, and I love that, because
it's like, you do know your
business, but it's my job to
take what you know and market
basically. So not no industry
niche, but I primarily focus on
website, copy tone of voice
(45:17):
guys, copy audits and blog posts
and the strategy, passionate
about what they do. Yes, I've
got to fucking love it.
Lea Turner (45:26):
That's the soundbite
ever I heard one. Thank you so
much for coming on the podcast.
Grace. It's been really great to
chat with you. And once again,
this one, Bronson, has been good
as gold.
Unknown (45:36):
Thank you.
Lea Turner (45:38):
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I enjoy the service
(00:01):
delivery of being a freelancer.
It's one of those things where
it's kind of like growth isn't
always a linear thing. You know,
to go to
Lea Turner (00:10):
Stephen Barton
infographic, fuck off.
Grace Hall (00:16):
That's actually
upset me. We're gonna talk about
this later.
Lea Turner (00:22):
I Hi Grace,
welcome to the HoLT Survival
guide for Small Businesses.
Firstly, before we get into all
the nitty gritty stuff that I
know we're going to enjoy
covering. Can you tell us a
(00:43):
little bit about who you are and
what you do?
Grace Hall (00:46):
Yes, I can. I'm a
freelance copywriter and content
writer since around late 2019
and I primarily work with
business owners and sometimes
agencies. But you know, which do
you prefer? Mostly business
owners, because they're the
decision makers. I don't really
often like having to have like
the middle person, but, you
(01:07):
know,
Lea Turner (01:09):
I find it harder to
convince the middle person or
the middle person then has to go
off and ask somebody else for
permission, who usually is quite
clueless as to the value that
you offer, who you are, maybe
they're not familiar with you
and your brand, and you end up
going around in circles. It's
like
Grace Hall (01:26):
an accountability
hierarchy as well, because
usually the person that makes or
breaks a relationship with an
agency is your point of contact.
So if they're not very
communicative, or if they don't
have good feedback with the
person they're accountable to,
even if the work is good, easy
work, it suddenly becomes
difficult. So
Lea Turner (01:45):
yeah, I've
definitely found the same thing
over the years. So you've been
doing this for five years, and I
know we know each other off
camera as well. You came
straight out of university into
freelancing, which is a bold
move. So you've literally never
been employed in a in a company.
(02:06):
What, what was the, what was the
story as to how, why that came
about? Why did you suddenly go
straight into freelancing? So
Grace Hall (02:13):
I think it's kind of
like a lot of people go to
university, and they you kind of
get in your head about what you
should do as a degree, because
you're aware that it's like so
when I was there, it was nine
grand a year just to study,
yeah, just to get some
PowerPoint presentations, and
that's not including all the
rent and the bills and
everything. So I stayed at home.
I commuted in, but it was so
(02:34):
expensive just in terms of your
student loans and all of that.
But all of that cycles would be
here all day. I think it was
that thing of I studied
psychology accounts and
psychotherapist, always
psychology. I did have the
intention when I was younger,
and, you know, far more innocent
to the world, that I was going
to be a therapist, because you
have a lot of friends that have
(02:55):
mental health conditions, you
self struggle with mental
health, and you like, that's my
purpose in life. And then I
start studying it, and I'm
thinking, Okay, well, I'd have
to do two years, three years of
a master's degree, more debt,
yeah. And then usually have to
do placements. It's very
competitive as well. Generally,
you'll have to do a lot of
volunteer work alongside your
(03:16):
studies. And I just thought,
this is not something you go
into lightly. So what can you do
now? And in typical fashion, I
basically procrastinate until my
third year, and was like, You're
gonna have to get a job suit,
you know, you're gonna have to
do something. And both of my
siblings are in marketing, older
siblings. So I was like, Okay,
if they can do it, I can do it,
(03:36):
you know, right? Not in a
disrespectful way. But my older
sister was in kind of content
writing, site copywriting, and
she was like, you know, you
spend all your time writing
essays and doing written
content, why can't you apply it
to that? I was that, that's
fantastic. Let me go and apply
for all these roles. I cannot
tell you how many I applied for.
(03:57):
Really, I'd be lucky if I heard
that just to get a rejection,
because even though they were
marketed as entry level roles,
that's what they wrote. Was
like, two years experience, one
year experience, you have to
have a degree in it. You have to
have this. And I was just kind
of like, what type of job is
this where you can upskill on
(04:19):
the job and use your
transferable skills first, you
know. But unfortunately, none of
them really wanted anything to
do with me, so I ended up
hearing back from somebody that
was running an internship, and
it was unpaid. It was a dental
marketing agency, fun, yeah, and
I got a lot of like experience,
(04:40):
kind of trying my hand out a
little bit of everything,
because I didn't know
definitively I wanted to do copy
or content when I started, I
actually thought it might have
been social media, which I think
I now know, would be a terrible
choice for me. Since I whenever
anyone's talking about trends,
I'm like, How old am I? Again, I
have no idea what you're talking
about. You know? I
Lea Turner (05:00):
think knowing you,
you definitely are secretly a
six year old in a 20 something
body.
Grace Hall (05:06):
Yes, told when I was
12 that I was an old soul,
depressed and anxious about the
state of the world.
Lea Turner (05:12):
I see it reflected
because I'm like that, like I'm
a cup of tea and slippers at
home with the dog, not a out
partying, although I did do that
in my 20s, both so so you had
the internship and then didn't
earn any money from it. No,
which isn't really helpful to
(05:32):
pay off the university debts for
the degree you didn't want to
pursue.
Grace Hall (05:37):
I did want to pursue
it. And in fairness, plenty of
involve a lot with consumer
psychology and stuff. And I did
do a lot of writing for mental
health related stuff as well.
But it was one of those things
where it was kind of like,
Whatever option did I have in it
is a great privilege to be able
to do unpaid work, you know,
because I'm staying at home
still now, yeah. Like to add, I
(05:58):
do pay towards bills, not a Doss
about, you know, I'm working,
but, um, back then it was just
like, What do I want to do? What
can I get out of this? And it
was in that office space,
because it was for
entrepreneurs, business owners,
that I met someone else who then
started me on the path of
working in like, mental health
related content, copper, and
(06:19):
then Lewis, who we're all
familiar with, with his agency,
like gold media, started doing
some work for him, and that was
when I officially set up as a
freelancer, getting paid for the
work. So so it
Lea Turner (06:31):
was being around
other people running their own
businesses that really sparked
that first. And that's
something, I mean, it's the
whole reason that we've got this
podcast is that there are so
many solo business owners out
there, freelancers, small
business owners, that don't have
the opportunity, or don't put
themselves in the position to be
around business owners to
(06:51):
realise that, because we all
have this, and I know because I
did it myself. I had this kind
of this must only be happening
to me. This isn't happening to
everybody else, and the minute I
realised that it that my
experiences weren't unique, and
I felt less alone, that spurred
me on and gave me more
confidence, because it's like,
(07:12):
oh, it's not just me that doubts
myself constantly. It's not just
me that's struggling with this,
that and the other. It's a very
normal part of the life of a
business owner, at least until
you're so successful that you
can sit on your yacht all day.
So tell me in this journey. So
it's five years. I hate the word
journey. I'm sorry, but it's
been five years. What has been,
(07:35):
would you say a really
significant like, what sticks
out as a significant turning
point in being this very young,
because what are you now? Like
2026 26 so you're 21 when you
started out as a freelancer. You
must have learned a lot about
yourself over the last five
years. But is there a point that
(07:57):
you sort of felt, I'm actually
quite good at this, like, I'm
figuring this out, and it's
going quite well. I think
Grace Hall (08:07):
it's probably when I
started asking for testimonials,
because I feel like when you
start out, you're not in the
habit. You just want to deliver
the work and kind of piss off
when it's a one off project.
Yeah. And then when I started
asking for the feedback, I was
like, oh shit, look, who's at
the job. That's
Lea Turner (08:23):
brilliantly, like,
that's really interesting.
Because I think that's something
that people really struggle to
do.
Grace Hall (08:29):
Asking for feedback
is intimidating. Because even
though it's usually, obviously,
at the end of the project,
you've been told the work squad,
it's all signed off, there's
still part of you that is, like,
convinced that they're suddenly
going to be like crock of shit.
Do not work with this person. I
would not recommend. I mean, in
reality, you know, people are
more than happy. And also it's
(08:49):
really good for marketing
purposes, because you get a real
sense of why they came to you
what problems you solve. Because
it's not just like the writing.
You know, I get a lot of
feedback on the way that I
onboard clients, because I have
unintentionally worked with a
lot of people that have ADHD,
yeah, and I thought that was
very interesting, because I to
me, I don't think about it, you
know, if you want to send me a
(09:10):
voice note, instead of filling
out a brief just type in all of
that's fine. If you want a video
call, great. If you want to
facilitate primarily over email,
that's fine as well, so I hadn't
thought about that, and that was
another part of testimonials
that really affirmed to me,
like, you're doing this part
right? That's
Lea Turner (09:28):
interesting, because
that's not something I've ever
thought about. But I never had,
like, a rigid system, if people
like, there was a ways you could
apply to work with me. But if
that didn't suit you, I never
had a problem with someone
emailing me or or sending me a
voice note on LinkedIn or
something, I tend not to give
out my phone number, but like
sending a voice note out on
LinkedIn, I never bought it.
(09:49):
Never bothered me. Like how you
would choose to engage and,
well, that's the thing.
Grace Hall (09:53):
You don't really
think about it, but clients do,
because a lot of them will say,
you know, when I was looking at
all. The people and their type
of content, like, what attracts
me to yours was the fact that
you state, it's it's adaptable
to me. You know, it doesn't
bother me. It doesn't make any
difference. Like a voice note, I
find it very funny, because it's
(10:13):
almost always the people that
sending voice notes, like on
their treadmill at the desk, the
talking, the drinking, the
walking, all at the same time. I
love it because I'm like, if
it's not natural for you, I'm
going to struggle to get what I
need out of you for the copy. So
if you're forcing yourself to
sit there and type at a laptop
(10:33):
when you cannot concentrate, and
that's not your natural pattern
of thinking, you're not really
going to be writing accurately,
whereas, if you're comfortable
talking it through, your
personality comes through as
well. And then that's very
useful. Yeah,
Lea Turner (10:46):
you can pick up the
intonation in their voice, the
excitements, the things when
they talk about something that
it gets, you know, you hear the
voice lower and them less
enthusiastic about certain
parts, or get a bit ranty. And
that's all really especially
with your background in like
psychology, you're probably
picking up on all of those
little changes in how they speak
(11:09):
and react to certain things,
because you can then twist that
into how you put their voice
across in the content or the
copy that you create. How did
you feel when you first started
asking for testimonies from
people, was that, like, a proper
ick,
Grace Hall (11:25):
yeah, a bit nervous.
I mean, I have anxiety anyway.
It's not officially diagnosed,
but I've read the DSM, yeah,
whatever, yeah. Literally, that
was the realisation that made me
want to go into psychology in
the first place. Was at college
at a level, when I saw the
diagnostic criteria for anxiety.
And I was like, tick, tick,
tick, tick. Of a friend was
like, I don't think you're meant
(11:48):
to be ticking. That to be like a
chat list. And I was like, so
for me, it was like that moment
of, oh, I don't know. And then I
thought, well, how are you going
to have any social proof because
you're there wax and lyrical
online about how good website
copy requires proof. You need to
reaffirm and validate what
(12:08):
you're saying. Don't just show
it like to be in a hypocrite.
Yeah, basically, you know which
is fun, like I can do what I do
as I say, not as I do. Did you
realise
Lea Turner (12:19):
that yourself, or
did somebody else point that out
to you? Because I know
definitely there's been times
where people said, Yeah, but you
don't do that. And I've gone,
what do you mean? No, I actually
don't. I need to do that as
well.
Grace Hall (12:29):
I think it was just
one of those where I was
thinking about stuff to post on
LinkedIn, and I was like, you've
never posted any client
feedback. And I was like, she's
not fucking asked for it unless
she's seen shot in like, an
email, which I love, like, it
doesn't have to be this massive
case study. I love when it's
just, you know, a message that's
like, totally, you've totally
got this nailed it. That's
(12:50):
great. But obviously, again,
when I started doing a list of
questions, that was when it
really got better. Because it
was like, Why did you get in
touch? What pain points were you
struggling with? Which ones that
I help you solve. Like, how did
you feel after? And it really
Lea Turner (13:05):
helps to guide if
you are somebody who wants to
niche, it does help to guide
you, because you see, not only
these are the clients that I
like to work with, but these are
the clients that I get the best
results from. And you see the
the like overlaps and you and
patterns emerging, or are
certainly I've have done like
(13:27):
I've seen based on how I've
experienced working with certain
clients, and then seeing the
results, I've gone, okay, well,
these are the types of people
that really dedicate themselves
to what they've learned and
really put in the effort. So I
can start narrowing down, saying
who are the people that I want
to work with. So this testimony,
I wasn't expecting you to say
that, and I think, and not just
(13:48):
necessarily because you said
that, that was a real turning
point in how you feel, not just
the formal testimonials, but the
good you know, someone sends an
email back. Someone's like my
newsletter writer, if someone
sends me an email going, that
was an amazing email. Really
love what you did that, I
forward that to him so he can
see the impact that he's had as
(14:10):
well, or I take a screenshot.
But when I get feedback, that's
about something that I've done,
I add it to It's so cheesy, but
I call a smile file, and I have
a smile file that's literally
just content thing, nice things
people have said about me. So on
the days that I feel like I'm
terrible at what I do and I'm
doubting everything and wanting
to chuck my laptop out of the
(14:30):
window, I go in and look at
Grace Hall (14:32):
it and go, I thought
mine's called Matt at a buy
folder, at a boy folder.
Lea Turner (14:40):
Fiona, amounts are
we? Oh, my Fion, Fiona Bradley's
fault. She called it a smile
file. And I was like, that's
amazing. That works very well. I
Grace Hall (14:47):
feel like that's
that's too happy. Go Lucky for
me, it has to be,
Lea Turner (14:51):
you're much more of
a sound, and that your entire
brand on LinkedIn, and it's
predominant. Where you are,
reluctantly, but that's where
you where you spend your time to
market. You are very sarcastic.
Your sense of humour is
incredibly dry, and you do
embody this sort of humorous,
grumpy old lady type vibe with
(15:12):
your acceptable but it's worked
so well for you, even your brand
names tell people what your
brand name is, crying over
copper that is so you. It
embodies everything that I've
learned about you and your brand
because you're just very, very
deadpan and very you pick on
things in a humorous way. So
(15:33):
it's never, it never comes
across as bullying or deeply
unkind. It comes from a good
place, but I you do have me
crying over coffee, but like
tears of laughter, and I
absolutely love it. Running your
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first policy subject to
eligibility. So we've talked
about the turning point where
you realised you were really
good at it. What has been a
moment? Because I don't think
anyone's ever told me one of
these moments that hasn't been
(16:38):
hugely relatable. What's been a
moment where you've just wanted
to chuck it all in and thought,
Maybe this isn't for me, maybe
running my own business isn't
for me. Or has there been a
moment like that?
Grace Hall (16:52):
I mean, I feel like
whenever you have quiet periods,
you just start to think, this is
the fucking waste my last year
in particular. I think everyone
I spoke to as well that was more
on the freelancing side of
things, was saying, like, is so
competitive now, just to get any
type of work, and you will
always have quite a month, and
(17:12):
then when you're left to kind of
think about it. In the early
years, I used to just start
getting really panicky, whereas
now might focus on batching up
your own content, you know, do
business type stuff. But that's
when I would start just
thinking, My God, is it really
worth all this stress? You know,
I'm not getting paid for
holidays. I'm not getting paid
if I'm sick. You know, it's
(17:35):
stressful, and then you've got
to worry about saving up for
your tax bill, your pension or
whatever lights talking about
that, because it's fucking
boring.
Lea Turner (17:43):
Yeah, it's true. I
just had to pay my tax bill
yesterday, and it my my personal
tax bill is now more than I used
to earn in a year, which makes
me want to cry. I'm and it's,
you know, you should feel proud
that you're able to pay that
much tax and put back into the
system in the country that you
(18:05):
live in, and blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, but it still hurts.
It's just
Grace Hall (18:08):
the fact that it's
like, if it was like regular
employment, and I never saw that
money, yeah, it would be fine.
But it's the fact that you see
it, you get it, and then you
wave it,
Lea Turner (18:18):
floats up into the
tax man's pocket, and you can
go, oh my god, I'm going to miss
you. It's like, on
Grace Hall (18:23):
a deeper level, I
feel like the moments where I've
sat there and thought, oh my
god, it's just when it's just
small. I've never had any
massive issues with clients.
Very lucky in that regard,
whenever it's stuff like late
payments, it's usually not out
of like, neglect or nastiness,
it's just forgetfulness.
Lea Turner (18:42):
Well, you do work
with lots of ADHD people, so
that's understandable. I'm I
don't care.
Grace Hall (18:46):
I'll send an email
and be like, not knock, not to
be the tax man. But there is
this advice, if you don't mind
paying
Lea Turner (18:52):
it now, I'm the
either pay it immediately or
I've forgotten about it, and my
my team will know that if I've
not paid it within 24 hours,
remind me, because I've
definitely
Grace Hall (19:02):
forgotten sniff and
malicious. But I think for me,
the it's when it's a lack of
alignment with clients. So
there's been a couple where it's
not that they're like an out and
out bad client, it's just that
their way of communicating and
mine just does not mesh. And
oftentimes it might be because
they're from a very corporate
background, very blunt and
(19:24):
straightforward, but not in a
way that really aligns with the
kind of bluntness and
straightforwardness I'm used to.
And it's kind of like yours
comes
Lea Turner (19:33):
with a warmth and
humour underlining it, right?
Whereas, if they're just It
depends. It's the intention
behind it isn't it is get this
done minion. Intention is like,
no,
Grace Hall (19:45):
yeah, because it was
one of those where I'd gotten an
email from this client in
particular, where we'd been
trying to figure out whether
what I wanted to deliver would
be delivered in page by page, or
a few pages at a time. And I
think in the confu. Version,
they just assumed that it meant
all of them delivered at once.
And there was kind of this tone
of, like, where's the rest?
(20:06):
Like, and I had to take, like,
the email content itself. I had
to get someone else to look at
it and say, Do you think that
this is a little bit snarky, a
little bit rude, because I
always have to check because I
think when you're in the moment,
you can take it personally.
They're like, yeah, it's a bit
like the whole email so that
okay, I'm gonna take half now
(20:26):
away from my laptop and not
react. I'm going to respond and
then how to reply, basically
saying, like, that's not really
how we were actually going to do
it. Here's what's been done so
far. This will be on by this
time. If you want to have a call
to discuss it, but it was very
micro manager, and I don't like
that, because my whole
philosophy on work is you will
(20:46):
hear from me relentlessly in the
build up to it, I will tell you
everything we're going to be
doing step by step, and then
when it actually comes to me
doing the service, I will piss
off, or you will not hear from
me until I have a draft unless I
need to ask you something, I'll
maybe drop a message or an email
saying, Here's where I'm at, if
it's a longer one,
Lea Turner (21:04):
so you really let
them know the process, so
there's no What
Grace Hall (21:08):
the hell is going
on? Yeah. Why haven't I heard I
know for me personally, I'm not
at a point where I can just,
like, outsource, just like that.
You know, it's one of those
things where it's a significant
investment for me, if I pay for
someone to do something, it's
not like, it's just money that I
can just piss away. So I do,
when I do that, I want to know
what's going on, yeah. So when
(21:28):
it comes to client work, I'm
like, No, here's, here's what's
going on, here's when it's going
to be delivered by but this
person was just like, constantly
wanted calls 50 plus comments on
a Google Doc. Yeah, yeah. I
opened it, and I was absolutely
flabbergasted. I was like, What
the fuck is this? I've never,
ever had that, not one that's
(21:48):
mine. And I honestly, it was one
of those moments where I sat
there and thought, I don't want
to fucking do this anymore.
Like, what am I doing? And then
I was like, You know what?
Actually, I don't think I'm the
problem in this situation, as
bad as that sound? So I was
like, I just, I had to sit
there, and my sister, God bless
her, is basically the person
that like support with when I go
(22:09):
through these peaks and troughs.
And I was just like, it's not
music. It's not me. It's just
that, no, I just think that you
don't gel. It's just, you know,
it's just one of those client
situations where you just kind
of want to sign off on the work
and go your separate ways. And
this client did come back at a
later date, maybe, like a year.
Yes, I don't know, yeah, because
(22:30):
at the time, as well as
thinking, oh, you know, it's
just, just get the money, it
should be a shot, and I was
like, I'm not fucking doing it
Lea Turner (22:35):
again. Was it how
far into your Freelancer
business? So I think that was
Grace Hall (22:39):
about 2023, so yeah,
a little while in, and I think
for me, it was such a kind of
significant moment, because I'd
not really had that much of a
significant difference before in
terms of communication, that was
Lea Turner (22:54):
where you became
brave enough to go. I'm not
going to work if I get that
vibe, that red flag from a
future, not that that client's a
red flag, but for you
personally, they were a red
flag. And so if you ever got
those vibes in future, you were,
you were strong enough to go,
actually, I don't want the money
because the stress isn't worth
Grace Hall (23:16):
you're paying like a
cost when you do it. So even
though you get paid money like
the financial aspects of it
doesn't really compensate for
the mental toll. I feel like,
you know,
Lea Turner (23:26):
and it's also like,
I notice with the freelancers
that are in my membership
community, when they're pricing
things, sometimes they're not
taking into consideration. And
actually, down the studio
manager, we were talking about
this yesterday, weren't we,
it's, when you're pricing a
package for somebody, you're
(23:46):
thinking about, how long is it
going to take me, how many
potential revisions am I going
to need? How much is the actual
sort of research that you need
to do? But you might just think,
oh, it's going to take me three
hours to do the project, but you
forget that you need to factor
in the potential that they're
going to want masses of
(24:07):
revisions and having comments
and constant back and forth.
Because you don't, you assume
people are going to be kind of
easier than they actually are at
the beginning. I think what have
you how have you overcome you
just said about contracts, how
you overcome
Grace Hall (24:22):
those? So in the
contract, it's basically like
the exact deliverables, and it
says you're allowed two rounds
of amends. I think I've adjusted
it now it's like a round of
edits and a round of amends.
Because to me, like amends are
just small little things, yeah,
or the wording of this one would
maybe change it or the technical
element, and amend to, like, the
(24:43):
slightly bigger bits that you
focus on, but you only get two,
and it specifies anything
outside of that will be a
separate cost that we can
discuss because it's outside of
the scope of work. Yeah, I've
never had to actually chase
anyone up on that. And I mean,
in fairness, I think, as with a
lot of freelancers, you will end
up with. Sometimes where they
can work in vdhc clients, I
would say, if you want to look
(25:04):
at the document in one go and
then leave it and then I'll take
all that's fine if you do bit by
bit. I'm not going to class that
as three separate amendment when
you've gone in and out, in and
out. Yeah. But another kind of
failsafe that I'm not sure
there's, like, a nice way to
word it, so I'll just say it the
way that I say it. There's the
twat tax, where, if there's a
client that's kind of like a bit
(25:26):
bit of a knob, or even, I've
seen twat tax, even when it's
something you don't like writing
about, or something that's going
to take a little longer, you
just add a bit more money on
what you're charging, because
you're accounting for the fact
that it's a bit more strenuous.
I've, talked so if you realise
it or not, when someone's gotten
in touch, you've been like,
adding another zero on this
(25:48):
package. I think, like, the
worst
Lea Turner (25:49):
thing is, though,
when you Well, I say the worst
thing, I've definitely added
large amounts to things thinking
they'll say no because they
won't want to do it. So I'll
just add a really, make it a
really high number, because I
don't want to do it, and they're
never going to pay that. So that
just and then they say yes.
You're like, oh, it's like
Grace Hall (26:10):
that constant to and
fro. And as a freelancer, where
you kind of start to get your
feet with price, and when you
just start going, Okay, I'll
just charge this amount, see how
it goes. And then when they say
yes, too quickly, like, fuck
yeah, I should have charged
more, but then you have no idea
whether that was just the right
amount for them. Yeah. I feel as
though you spend so much time
getting in your own head about
it that it's like you start to
(26:31):
forget that. It's like you can
increase your prices with
whichever client and just say,
well, this is for this package.
This is bespoke. It covers this.
But I feel like the second you
fall into a trap of assuming, oh
my God, I didn't charge enough?
Oh my God, I didn't charge
enough. It's never going to seem
like enough, because you're not
comfortable enough to jump in
right away, starting from a
certain amount. If that makes
Lea Turner (26:52):
I think there's a
real balance when it comes to
pricing in terms of, like, Is
this in do I feel like this is
enough. Like, will I be happy
earning this amount of money for
this many hours work with this
client on this project, and if
you're happy with that, great,
but then you do have to think
about bringing it up gradually
(27:14):
so that you can earn more, but
not so much that you feel really
under pressure to perform like
better than you feel you're
capable of well, because I
always feel
Grace Hall (27:26):
like too far like,
yeah, you start it almost
impacts your delivery of the
surface, because you feel like
you've overcharged and you're
not worthy of charging, whereas
it's that perfect threshold
where it's outside your comfort
zone, but not so much so that
you actually start to feel so I
get that
Lea Turner (27:42):
with speaking
speaking events, people like you
should be charging five figures
for speaking events. I'm like,
No, I bloody won't, because I
don't feel like and that's not
me having imposter syndrome. I
am not experienced enough to be
on a stage and demand five
figures. Yes, I might bring an
audience, but I know that I'm
going to feel so cripplingly
(28:03):
anxious about not being paid
that amount of money. People
Grace Hall (28:07):
on LinkedIn love
saying stuff like, charge you
with what the fuck does that
mean?
Lea Turner (28:13):
It's kind of like
it's very vague. It's a nice
sound bite, isn't it, to each
other, but, but you need to
actually work out, what will
people pay? What do you bring to
the table? That's like for
influencers, for example, it's
not just what's the package
you're delivering, it's how many
eyeballs are coming onto the
brand with that, and how much
(28:33):
time are you spending responding
to comments to boost the
visibility. There's lots of
other factors to think about,
but people do get it wrong. And
I do see people just throwing
out either really, really low
amounts or really high amounts
in your life, or people who
absolutely mug people off, where
a course is 250 pounds for three
months, and then they suddenly
(28:53):
slash it to 20 quid. And you're
like, Are you kidding me?
Grace Hall (28:57):
Just though it's
like, when it comes to pricing,
just with clients, you can
always start off higher and move
lower if you're willing to
compromise for work that, yeah,
that appeals to you. You can't
go up once you've gone down. No,
but it's like one of the most
logical things you can do,
really, is just think, what kind
of salary do I want to be on?
How much would I have to earn a
month for that? And what can I
(29:18):
deliver service wise to account
for that? Now, it's not always
going to work that way, because
at the end of the day, the sales
and all of that required, but it
also forces you to sit down and
think, am I have I actually got
the capacity to deliver this
service twice a month, or this
one four times a month? Yeah.
And then when you actually think
about that, you get a good idea
of which services you actually
(29:38):
fucking hate. And you don't know
why you're doing
Lea Turner (29:40):
but you also have to
factor in the time for for your
brain, so especially something
like content creation,
copywriting, if you are tied to
your desk eight hours a day,
chucking out financial copy for
blogs or whatever you are going
to reach Wednesday and want to,
like, walk off a play. Life
(30:00):
because you need the space to
touch grass, go outside, have
fresh air, rest, because your
brain cannot be working like
that, especially if it's not
your finances. You said, That's
not one of your favourite areas.
It takes much more concentration
(30:22):
trying to write some an entire
website in a couple of days on
finances. You're probably not
going to want to do much else
that week, because you're going
to need the rest. I don't know
about you, but I'm not creative.
If I'm tired, I have to have
some good sleep.
Grace Hall (30:37):
But like the
service, delivery is my
favourite part about it. I love
having a stacks to do, list of
stuff to write, because it's
like being able to switch from
one thing to the other, and, you
know, not get too stagnant with
it when it's just one project at
a time. Yeah, it kind of drags a
bit. Like, if I could just get
someone's sales for me, I'd do
it. But as you say, like at the
(30:59):
moment, as a freelancer, I don't
want to be an agency. I don't
want to be a limited company. I
feel as though there's so much
pressure on platforms like
LinkedIn that it's like, you
have to get bigger, you have to
expand, you have to hire people
to be successful. And then I'm
like, right? But what kind of
knob would I be if I jumped into
that without thinking about it?
Hire someone and then after,
fire them a month later. And
(31:21):
then do
Lea Turner (31:21):
you feel like that's
something that you will do
eventually you just want to stay
as a freelancer for,
Grace Hall (31:27):
yeah, for the
foreseeable Yeah, I'm not like
thinking 10 years in advance
person. For me, just thinking
about the next couple of years.
I'm happy being a freelancer
like for I've seen people who've
tried to go down the agency
route and hiring people and the
toll that's taken on them,
(31:47):
because you forget that when
you're a freelancer, the
blessing and the curse is that
it's you. You're accountable for
everything, yeah, and that's
great in one sense, because it's
like you have ownership over
everything. You're the one
deciding what you do and don't
do. I feel like when you take on
the responsibility of something
like an employee, you might be
more prone to working with
clients that aren't a good fit,
(32:09):
and you might be more prone to
doing work you don't like doing
because there's another
financial stressing out on you.
Yeah? And it's not referring
someone as like a burden, but
the financial burden of having
employees massive, yeah? So I
just No, it doesn't appeal to
me.
Lea Turner (32:24):
But how is it? And
because this is a real character
strength that you clearly have
at 26 years old, you are
surrounded on LinkedIn, and you
know, you live in Manchester,
it's a very entrepreneurial hub
of people. We're surrounded by
people that are running towards
success, they want to be made.
How do you sort of keep your
(32:46):
head on that? This is what I
want. I'm happy running my
Freelancer business, making
enough money to get by your I
mean, I guess it sort of helps.
You're still living with your
family, because you haven't got
that kind of additional pressure
of,
Grace Hall (33:03):
oh yeah. I mean,
renting is not for people aren't
in relationships, that's for
sure. Like in Manchester, you're
talking what, 1500 a month, not
even including, like madness,
additional utilities. But how
Lea Turner (33:16):
have you stayed in
your lane and not got swept away
like the vast majority of
people, because I have this
conversation all the time with
people saying, but I need to do
this, but I need I'm like, why
are you making enough money to
live? Are you happy? So why do
why do you need to go for them?
And I've had to to rein myself
in when I find myself getting,
like, lost in this, this, I
(33:38):
don't know what to even call it
bullshit. Yeah, it is a sea of
bullshit. It's just like
everybody else is racing,
racing, racing, like, What's the
hurry? Why am I in such a rush?
I can do this at my own pace.
But at 26 I don't mean that to
sound patronising. So many
people are getting lost in this
buzz that are in that sort of
entrepreneurial world. I have to
grow this. I need to reach,
(33:59):
reach six figures, seven
figures, eight figures, before
I'm 30, you You haven't got lost
in that. And what do you think
it is about you or how you're
living your life that helps you
to not not get lost in that? I
mean,
Grace Hall (34:13):
I think some of it's
been on LinkedIn Since 2019, a
lot of the types of people who
dive into that and don't
actually do a good job and lie
about how much you're earning to
sell. Like, oh, here's how I
made. Six figures. You need to
pay me 10 grand to teach you. I
just think you're a knob. And
that's just not for me. And on
(34:33):
top of that, it's like I enjoy
again, like the service delivery
of being a freelancer. I think
for me as well. It's one of
those things where it's kind of
like growth isn't always a
linear thing. You know, to
Lea Turner (34:47):
Stephen Bartlett
infographic, fuck off.
Grace Hall (34:53):
That's actually
upset. We're
Unknown (34:56):
gonna talk about this
later. I.
Grace Hall (35:00):
Four point being
like, when I've spoken to people
who are actual business owners,
limited business owners, like
it's a lot of it is smoke and
mirrors, because you're not
going to post about when you're
having a year where you're not
sure whether you can pay your
employees. You're not going to
post about all of those times
where you think I should have
just stayed running it by myself
(35:20):
for a little while longer, and
having that clarity of, like, a
lot of what is being posted
online about why it's great to
grow is ignoring all of the
super shit bits about it. And
for me, I'm like, the shit parts
of being a freelancer are still
infinitely easier than the shit
parts of being somebody that's
running an agency with multiple
employees. And to me, it's like,
(35:42):
you can always go up that way if
you want to, but it's very hard
to scale back down if you go
there without thinking it
through first. Because it's it's
not just like the fact that
you'd feel bad for doing that,
it's the fact that publicly, you
would have to kind of make some
comment about the fact that
you've suddenly gone from an
agency, multiple employees and
all this. It's like a one
(36:02):
person. I
Lea Turner (36:03):
see that happening
on LinkedIn as well, and I you
know, you'll see someone
announced, it's like, quiet
quitting for entrepreneurs. And
six months later, you're like,
What happened to that thing that
they were doing? Like, oh, they
were gonna do this. They were
gonna do
Grace Hall (36:15):
that. Oh, a few of
those, the it's like they start
off at LinkedIn girls round, and
then all of a Tiktok agency,
like, What the fuck? Just throw
a
Lea Turner (36:24):
load of spaghetti at
the wall, see which one sticks.
But that's the
Grace Hall (36:27):
thing I'm like, if I
think there's just nothing wrong
with just saying that's not for
me to be responsible for other
people, like, it's a bit of a
bar late being responsible for
just me sometimes, you know. So
it's like, just me is fine, and
that can change, and that will
be fine as well as for right
now. Just know it's
Lea Turner (36:45):
I chose the same
route because I tried having an
employee, and I was like, oh
god, I've got to keep telling
her what to do all the time.
This is not fun. People don't
Grace Hall (36:53):
realise this.
Management goes into like, you
can't just say, Here's your
role. Get going. You know, you
have to onboard them. You have
to make sure they have
everything they need to get
going. And you can't just leave
them to it. So I outsourcing
where that's someone's bread and
butter. That's their job. Yeah,
when it's an employee, you have
to update them on how the
business is doing, all the new
(37:13):
updates in terms of clients,
what they need to be doing, and
you will need to hold the hand
for it. And I think some people
have gone into it, and they're
just not equipped to have that,
you know? They don't want to do
that. They don't want to be
somebody who sat there doing
circle time at their
Lea Turner (37:29):
own I'm absolutely
not that kind of person. And
having a team of freelancers
where everybody knows what they
need to do for me, I know, I
literally just fire out WhatsApp
throughout the day, and I never
even say, like, a time scale. If
it's urgent, I say this is when
I need this by this one's an
important one, but that's so
rare that I have to specify a
time period. It's just when you
(37:51):
get to it, which inevitably was
usually within 48 hours for all
of them, because I'm not in a
situation where much is in a
rush, other than you know, if
there's member issues in the
community, someone can't log in
that one gets
Grace Hall (38:02):
about copywriters
and like, short life or death
words, words on a website,
Lea Turner (38:08):
and you probably
have, like, quite a long lead
time on most of your work
anyway, right? Or they get a
SWAT tax on it. I
Grace Hall (38:15):
think it's one of
those things as well where it's
like, naturally, you're gonna
have periods where it's like
four or five projects back to
back, shorter and longer ones,
and you're like, Yeah, this is
great. And then you'll get one
project that's dragging out, and
you're, oh, my God, but it's
kind of like just part and
parcel of it, really, isn't it?
Like, if, if you don't enjoy
(38:35):
having at least a bit of quiet
time, like, yeah, financially.
Is it great? No. But I feel so
anyone who says that when
they're freelancing, they don't
have quiet periods. I don't know
what you're doing to get that,
unless you have like five
retainer clients, it's going to
happen is,
Lea Turner (38:52):
and I noticed a lot
of copywriters talking about how
quiet things were last year. I
don't know why. Maybe just like
said, The competition's high.
There's a lot of lot more people
coming into the market, into the
job market, that want these sort
of freelance, digital nomad type
jobs. So maybe that's AI, oh
yeah, of course, yeah. I didn't
even think about that. So
(39:13):
nobody, nobody needs you anymore
because they've got chat. GPT,
that'll be the fucking day. No,
it makes me laugh, because with
the transcription that I used to
do, I'd have been out of a job
now, because everybody uses
otter AI, it feels serendipitous
that I left that app as things
like otter AI started coming in.
(39:33):
I thank God I got out when I
did, because my job would now
just be proofreading rather than
all
Grace Hall (39:38):
I'd say is read a
couple things, chat GPT puts out
for a website or both. Tell me
you don't need a copyright. Oh
my
Lea Turner (39:45):
god. The stuff that
it puts in my comment sections
on social media, I'm just like,
Oh my God. People actually think
the amount of of respected CEOs
who I get commenting on my
content on LinkedIn, great. Just
about insert. Topic, you know
that their little $5 an hour,
VA, that they've hired from some
(40:05):
sweatshop in the Philippines is
running everything through chat.
GPT, so problematic
Grace Hall (40:10):
that so many of them
openly talk about that they're
proud
Lea Turner (40:13):
of having people
they pay $5 an hour. I can't
sorry I'm gonna see by people,
but prejudice
Grace Hall (40:21):
really to be like,
I've gone out of my way to hire
someone in a country where I
know I can get a going rate
that's cheaper. I've
Lea Turner (40:29):
got a community
manager that lives in India and
a community manager that lives
in the UK. They're paid the
same,
Grace Hall (40:37):
too many bills about
like you, I've heard this bit of
this amount of money, and it's
like, why are you,
Lea Turner (40:44):
why are you happy to
advertise this? It just makes me
very uncomfortable when I see
we've had a few people, um,
promote them within the
community, and might, no, we
don't. We don't promote
essentially save labour. There's
no way they can actually be
making any money from even,
even? Yeah. Oh, that, it does
(41:05):
make me mad as well. Um, so if
you could give yourself when you
were, let's say one year into
your business, if you could now
give yourself some advice back
at 20 years old, or was it 22
years old, a year into
freelancing, what would you what
would you say to yourself that
(41:25):
would make the next four years
easier?
Grace Hall (41:31):
Probably just, you
know what you fucking doing. You
know what you're talking about.
Like, late last year, I started
doing mentoring for girls in
marketing. I love that. And for
me, it was very validating. The
first few calls I was preparing
for him, I was writing notes and
everything. And then when I
started doing more, and I got
into I was like, you don't even
need to do that, because you
(41:52):
just know, like, when they're
talking about stuff, they're
asking for advice, you already
know. But when you're just in
the business, you don't really
acknowledge how much you know
about it, because it's the same
way when people get really angry
about a client not knowing why
you've made a decision, you
don't know what you don't
fucking know, like they've got
no idea why you've done it that
way, because that's why they've
(42:12):
asked you to do it. So I think
for me, it just be like, you
know, doing something right? You
know, you're still getting
clients, you're getting great
feedback. Just keep doing what
you're doing in terms of Be
assertive about the decisions
you're making the type of
clients you want to work with. I
mean, content on LinkedIn is
fine. LinkedIn as a platform, I
(42:33):
have no idea what's going on
with it half the time, but, you
know, I still get feedback
occasionally from people in DMS.
I just I love your content. Or
I've showed this to my team
because I think it reminded me
how dry my content is. And I was
like, That's lovely. I write
some stupid stuff on there. So
when someone goes out the way to
message something like that, I'm
(42:54):
like, I just want you to know,
but my day has been made. You
know, I'm sitting there like,
Oh,
Lea Turner (42:59):
I love that. It's
funny actually, because I posted
about similar subjects as you,
talking about mentoring last
last week on LinkedIn, and I was
talking about the fact that
everyone says you should always
be the dumbest person in the
room if you're an entrepreneur.
And actually, there's so much
value to being one of the
smarter people in the room,
because you realise how much
you've learned. And when you do
mentoring and you have
(43:19):
conversations with people behind
you. You go, damn, I look at,
look at all this stuff that I've
learned. Didn't even, I don't,
don't even know who this person
is that's falling out of my
mouth right now. You don't
Grace Hall (43:30):
have to be the
dumbest person in the room,
because, hey, you know when
people are dealing with imposter
syndrome already, you don't need
to reinforce that. It's just
about having an openness to the
fact that you won't know
everything. Yeah, all the stuff
that you're familiar with, you
know Well, and that's fine, just
an openness to learning from
people ahead of you and to
trying to help those say behind
you, but you know, earlier on in
(43:50):
that journey, yeah. So to me,
that's been so valuable, because
I feel as though, if you lean
too much in giving advice to
people who are entry level, you
start to think you're like the
pinnacle, yeah? If you keep an
eye ahead of people that you
would admire, and they're doing
things that you just appreciate
and aspire to, then you've kind
(44:10):
of got that nice balance, right?
So I don't know everything, but
I do know
Lea Turner (44:14):
one's ahead to keep
you hungry, and the ones behind
to keep you humble. Or the one
I'm always
Grace Hall (44:18):
hungry, yeah, or the
other you've not heard stomach
noises this entire time. Grand,
hungry for work, obviously.
Lea Turner (44:28):
What is it? Well,
tell us then, because we'll put
this in, who are your favourite
people to work with?
Grace Hall (44:34):
Just whether it's a
early stage or just a small
business, just business owners
that are just passionate about
what they do, because I've
worked with everyone from people
in risk management, like
building, lighting, air service
type stuff, I have to look up a
lot about that traditional
marketing agency owners, people
(44:56):
who would describe themselves as
solopreneurs. But the thing that
they all have in common is that.
They know their business, they
love what they do. They just
don't know how to write for it.
Yeah, and I love that, because
it's like, you do know your
business, but it's my job to
take what you know and market
basically. So not no industry
niche, but I primarily focus on
website, copy tone of voice
(45:17):
guys, copy audits and blog posts
and the strategy, passionate
about what they do. Yes, I've
got to fucking love it.
Lea Turner (45:26):
That's the soundbite
ever I heard one. Thank you so
much for coming on the podcast.
Grace. It's been really great to
chat with you. And once again,
this one, Bronson, has been good
as gold.
Unknown (45:36):
Thank you.
Lea Turner (45:38):
Supporting small
business owners is my biggest
passion, and that's what my
membership community the HoLT is
all about. Inside the HoLT are
more than 150 master classes
from experts in every business
skill you could ever want, and
we add more every single month.
There are also sales clinics,
tech clinics, well being support
and advice and discounts on a
(45:59):
huge range of software and
services. But it's so much more
than just trainings and
resources. Everyone inside the
HoLT shares their years of
knowledge and experience
generously with kindness and
without judgement. They're super
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(46:20):
succeed and helping you wherever
they can. And we offer all of
this and much more at an
extremely low price, because we
know that budgets are tight when
you're bootstrapping a business.
The HoLT is a kind, inclusive
and non judgmental place where
everyone knows that working
together is the fastest way to
succeed, and it makes it a whole
(46:40):
lot more fun. We would love for
you to join us. You can check
out the full details on the
halt.com or if communities
aren't really your vibe and you
just want access to the hundreds
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recordings with a combined value
of more than 10,000 pounds. You
can access the vault right now
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(47:02):
classes with none of the chat or
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Visit the-holt.com/vault to sign
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leading experts you
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