December 25, 2023 • 49 mins
"Episode 4 - Personal History with Kava" features a discussion between Douglas LaRose and Jimmy Price, exploring their individual journeys with kava. Douglas's story begins with discovering kava as a natural anxiety remedy in his late teens, experiencing immediate relief from a kava beverage. Jimmy's initial encounter with kava was less impactful, but its effectiveness in alleviating his roommate's OCD symptoms was notable. Post-college, facing addiction issues, Jimmy turned to kava as a natural anxiety solution, finding it significantly helpful. Both speakers emphasize kava's unique properties, distinguishing it from traditional drugs, and highlight their deep personal connections and passion for kava. The episode also delves into the complexities and evolutions within the kava community, including challenges, industry developments, and the personal significance of kava in their lives.
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Episode Transcript
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Douglas LaRose (00:07):
Pour in the tanoa and sit down and enjoy another
session of the Kava Lounge
welcome to the show, everyone.
Welcome back.
. Jimmy Price: all right.
I'll lead it off here, doug, let's havesome background on our our own personal
stories here and how we came to understandkava and how it came into our lives
and, what kind of role it played for us.
That sounds like a great idea, Jimmy.
(00:29):
I.
, I just read this really long,complicated paper and you're
changing it up for this episode, huh?
Look, it's a cool idea, you keepme on my toes, Jimmy, as always.
Of course.
. It's my job.
Yeah.
Kava, huh?
, how did we get into Kava?
I think we probably both havevery different stories to tell.
For me I was a young 18 year old
or 19 year old and SouthernCalifornia had just finished high
(00:51):
school and was really anxiousabout what was gonna come
afterwards.
and I was going to community collegeand at the time I was working at a
health food store called Jimbos in SanDiego I was trying a bunch of different
stuff that they had for anxiety and forto help me sleep and stuff like that.
And I'm not a big fan ofthe of the Devil's lettuce.
(01:12):
, the Mary Jane, I'm not a big fan.
I had some bad run-ins with Mary Janeand the Paranoia, so I never really got
much medicinal use out of marijuana.
So I was asking calming herbs andtonics and things of that nature.
And after trying a bunch of differentstuff like the roots and, yeah, really
strong chamomile tea which I still enjoy.
(01:33):
I eventually, came upon a little tinthat looked like a like a cocoa, hot
cocoa tin or something, but it was calleda kava king, and it was an instant kava.
And the lady that worked atthe natural pharmacy of this
health food store said, oh,that stuff is like super
strong , be careful with it.
And I was like none of thisother stuff has worked.
So how strong can it really be?
(01:53):
So I bought this tin of kava and Iwent home and took a big tablespoon
and mixed it in a glass of water.
And I tell you, within five minutes Iknew that this was the thing for me.
There was none of that reversetolerance, none of that kind of subtlety
that some people complain about.
It really hit me right awayand that anxiety that I had
as a young student who is.
(02:16):
Being thrown into a terrifying world.
It really did melt awaythat just after one
glass, one big glass of kava.
And that was, , that was the,that's really the summary of
how I got introduced to Kava.
Of course, , it's it's now25 years later, so a lot has
happened between now and then.
Not 25 years, like 20 years
And yeah, a lot has happenedbetween then and now.
(02:37):
But
Jimmy Price (02:37):
that story, , it keeps
unfolding.
So that's part one for me.
Part one,
Kava came into my life several timesactually once in college, and then after
that, it was several years later, butthe first time I came in contact with
anything kava related was with a kava,I think an kava extract that I bought
from I am Shaman or something like that.
And We we didn't know what to do with it.
(02:59):
So me and my roommate we took Tostitosships and dipped them into the into the
extract jar and just ate it off the chip.
So that was terrible.
But, and it didn't really, it didn'tstand out to me personally at that time.
However, my roommate , incollege was quite o c d.
He would get up in the middle ofthe night, go check his doors and
windows, on his car, if thingsweren't going in the right order,
(03:20):
he'd have to do 'em over again.
He said that after he took that kavaextract, he's I can see clearly.
He was like, I don't nuburdened by my compulsion.
And this was back in 2003, 2004.
So that was my first inkling that maybethere could be something more to this
.And I held it in the back of my mind, but of course I had more drugs to do.
I was in college , as one doesin college, we, , do drugs,
, apparently that's just what do no,it isn't for anyone listening.
(03:43):
That's not what you do.
But that's what I chose to do.
and as such, I paid the price for it.
And I ended up in treatment and , heck, itwas like, it was one of the last options.
, , you, when you want to take a day, youjust want a day for, you don't have
to go and get your drug of choice.
You just want one day whereyou're free of that, you.
You're stuck in a spot,you don't wanna be in.
(04:03):
And that's where I was at.
And I went to treatment got clean andwent to went to a Narcotics Anonymous
for about for about six or eight months.
And I was still having those reallyrepetitive thoughts and the desires
to use that same drug of choice,the, of course, mine were opiates.
But , it, at that time I was stilldealing with a good load of anxiety.
(04:25):
Just, from the unsteady state of mylife, , we just got outta treatment.
It was in n na for six months aroundpeople I'd never seen before.
Kava, these are my new family . Butafter that I searched for a
natural way of relieving anxiety.
I looked through all the different naturaloptions as supplements running into kava
I've actually started taking the GaiaHerbs, phyto Cap kava pills from Trader
(04:47):
Joe's or one of those health food stores.
But they actually worked, theyreduced my anxiety level and I
was like , this actually hasan effect I was not expecting.
And you're usually, used to those.
Things where it's oh, you gottatake it for six months before you
feel it, , that kind of thing.
It just doesn't, itdoesn't hit you right away.
But this was just like atotally different effect.
I could feel the anxiety andstress just rush away from me.
(05:08):
, I was like, oh, okay.
There's obviouslysomething different here.
So I went out and I got some kavapills, the, , the yellow ones that
you can find at the health food store.
So I was like, all right, sopeople make a drink outta this.
Oh, yeah.
And so I took the yellow kava extractpills, broke 'em open and water.
And of course that just doesnot mix together at all.
But I slowly figured out thatyou're supposed to, , take
(05:29):
a bag and actually need it.
And I would say sometime around 2005.
is when I actually got myfirst proper kava experience.
And that was with , the Kava King.
The Kava King's Reserve tin.
I bought them until theywere no longer available.
One tablespoon wasenough and that was that.
But after that I had to, figure out,, how do I actually get this stuff?
(05:50):
Then I found, knock 'em all at home,found the stone kava and yeah, that's
when my real love for Kava started.
Cuz it was just like, okay, there's alot more to this than what people were
saying I knew that there , , it had tobe more to it, but at that point it was a.
Still such an esoteric thing and not anormal subject to discuss with people.
It still felt like kind like adrug, I was doing a drug, but in
(06:10):
truth, it never panned out that way.
I was told a lot and NarcoticsAnonymous that, , you're
switching seats on the Titanic.
, you're still sinking if you're using,but this kava is a different thing.
It is not a drug in the traditional sense.
It never has made me crave it.
If I don't get it or if I justcan't have it, something's going
down and I can't have my kava, it'snot gonna end up with me shaking,
(06:31):
sweating, , my pupils are dilatedand I'm trying to, , get my next fix.
But it's not like that.
It doesn't have those sort of effects andI've never that sort of reaction from it.
And , I feel like that I'm aresearch study of one going
on however many years old.
But I've taken the addictive drugsand I've been addicted to those
addictive drugs and kava justdoesn't have the same properties.
(06:52):
I've gone long-winded, but whereI come from personally, we are
actually nothing to do with kava,nothing to do with the plant.
So I do restaurant refrigeration.
Oh.
And so that's a shocker for everyone.
They're like , where do you teach?
It's no, I'm sorry.
I don't, I'm actually just,I just do ice machines.
But kava is truly my passion.
Like from when I wake up, I thinkabout, , something to do with kava,
(07:13):
but it's not, "I've gotta drink it".
It's always something on the periphery,which makes me know that I actually
like it for what it is and not, , forwhat my reward circuits are telling me.
And that's a big deal for me.
I've always said that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Douglas LaRose (07:27):
I can testify to your.
Insatiable thirst forknowledge about kava?
It's very infectious.
. I think when I wake up, I actually dothink about drinking kava, , but I don't
I don't drink kava until it's like 4:00 PM
That that's my, you're the Kavasseur.
That's all right.
. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
So when I left San Diego in2002 I moved up to San Francisco
(07:47):
and then on to Santa Barbara.
And when I was in college,I had a lot of anxiety.
I have a very active mind.
I still have a very active mind, and Ialways am looking for things to quench
my curiosity, like reading a lot ofbooks, , playing music, getting involved
in all kinds of crazy stuff, and.
Kava was always there as something thatwould like, help me settle down and
(08:11):
stop my mind from moving at a millionmiles an hour at the end of the day.
But when I was in college in, at theUniversity of California in Santa Barbara,
I was taking six classes at a time.
I was working, I was doing a lot ofextracurricular stuff, and I was poor.
I was like super poor.
As you are when you're in college.
And I worked at this little liquor storeand probably made like $200 a week.
(08:32):
But I would go to the thegrocery store in Santa Barbara
and they didn't have the kava.
You couldn't get it.
I didn't like really trythat hard, to be honest.
I probably could have gone online andordered Kava King, but it was just
like harder to buy stuff back then.
This is like 2002, 2003.
Yeah.
, you couldn't just go online on, onAmazon and put in your debit card number
(08:53):
and get a, get something in the mailwith, in three days that it's like a
different world now than it was then.
Yes.
So I went to the grocery store and Ifound the yogi tea, the the cinnamon
Jimmy Price (09:04):
yogi release.
Douglas LaRose (09:05):
And I would load up on like 10 boxes of that.
It was like pretty expensive.
, at that time it was I think 299, I think today, now it's 5 99.
But I would load up on boxes of that stuffand then I would buy chamomile tea, which
was super cheap and I would always put akava stress relief in two chamomile bags.
and a cup like a, , a mug.
(09:26):
And that would be my nightlytea that I would drink.
. And then when I would finish drinkinga tea I would usually suck on the
bag.
Of the stress relief.
Cause like I could feel thekava like coming out of it.
And I actually I still tell peoplelike that's, that stuff is pretty good.
I don't, I'm not gonnaever dis c stress relief.
I don't know if it's likestill the same as it was back
Jimmy Price (09:44):
then.
It's not . Okay.
Okay.
It's not, the one thing that'sdifferent now is , they don't
put licorice from there.
And I think that's what was causingproblems cuz we were getting people
that had some weird issues and theywere like, why is Kava making me do this?
And first of all, you're drinkingYogi tea and that's not really kava.
And second of all, , I think, Ireally do think that the black
licorice caused some issues.
So they took that out and, huh.
(10:06):
I don't know.
It has about 25 milligramsof Kava lactone per teabag.
So you're getting about the same as,okay, you're getting a kava candy.
, huh?
When I
Douglas LaRose (10:15):
was like 22, 23, I've always been very sensitive to any
kind of psychoactive or any kindof substance or food or beverage.
So , it did the desired thing for me,and it was very noticeable because I I
wasn't like hyping up kave in my head.
I didn't know anything about it.
I just knew that I hadtried it and it had worked.
And whenever I came back toproducts that had kava in them,
(10:37):
they would always have that effect.
But I hadn't readanything about, Vanuatu.
I hadn't read.
What's the name of the
getting Stone With Savages.
Getting Stone Savages?
Yeah.
Yeah.
By j Martin Troost.
I hadn't read that book yet.
So I didn't know anything about KavaDrinking Culture or nakamals or anything.
So I had no romantic image in myhead of what Kava was supposed to do.
But then , fast forward, , I was in thePeace Corps and when I was in the Peace
(10:59):
Corps in Ghana, I had no access to Kava.
I might have brought a couple boxesof Yogi Tea with me to Ghana.
I can't remember.
But when I came back to the us I,when I was in graduate school, that's
when I started the kavasseur blogbecause I started reading about
kava and learning about it in mystudies as an anthropology student.
And then I went online and I foundvendors who were selling kava
(11:21):
root, and I just became obsessed.
That's why I started the blog,because there was nothing online.
Except for some YouTube videos wherepeople showed you how to make kava,
you could find no information on it.
So I just read every single website from,, from cover , to cover knock 'em All at
Home, kava by Rex , Hawaiian Kava Center.
All these kava vendors thatare, a lot of 'em are now gone.
(11:42):
But I became obsessed and I justwanted to try every single kava.
I spent, , hundreds and hundredsof dollars that I didn't have on
kava that I wanted to try.
And I started just writing these blogentries and there was a huge reaction.
There were like, people were emailingme, people were, , commenting on my blog.
It was like this really exciting,stimulating back and forth I was having
(12:04):
with, I guess what was like the earlydays of the Kava online community.
Jimmy Price (12:08):
That's where my online kava thing started is when you started
your blog, because I was lookingaround and there was a blue light
posts, there was a few erowid tripreports and an entry for it on erowid.
But other than that, there wasnot really all that much on kava.
There wasn't anything online.
, you could just, it was just a blank.
(12:30):
It's just nothing.
Those days where all you could findwas a blue light post about it then
at that point I was still lookingaround for, , what is this stuff?
, what's the story behind kava?
, there's something morehere that's not being told.
Like the labels on the bottlesand stuff don't really tell
you everything about kava, but.
Yeah, this is one of the thingsthat some people may connect with,
is I spent nine years in NA and thatentire nine year period I drank kava.
(12:53):
I drink it every single night.
And it was my antidepressant,it was my anti-anxiety.
It was my my nightcap is what kindof shut me down and helped my brain
completely go to sleep at night andget more rest than I would normally.
But I made the kava starting fromsix months clean to nine years in na.
Every day.
And for the first good portion ofthat, struggled pretty heavily with
(13:16):
thinking about, is this a relapse?
am I using a drug?
Am I going against the very thing thatI'm, , trying not to do here in, in N.A.,
, but it did not actually turn out that way.
, this is another one that kinda leavesyou without words when you try to
describe kava and I know it's specialbecause is one of the only quote
unquote substances that I can't reallydescribe and put into words that
(13:37):
are relatable in a way that's liketranscribable in a about drug because.
It doesn't grab you and directs you.
, you can have a strong kava experienceif you want to, but it's not going
to make you , get in your car anddrive your, , car into a ditch and
you not remember anything it's notfour wheel, four wheel on top, but but
yeah before wheel on top, literally.
Yeah.
Literally.
But I struggled with that in my mindfor quite a number of years in na and.
(14:01):
. It took me realizing that mylife is not anyone else's to live.
And the effect that Kavagives me is not harmful.
It does not cause meto go rob my neighbors.
It does not cause me to, , empty mybank account when I don't have money.
It's not going to, , cause me to dothese things that these other drugs
would absolutely cause me to do.
And I think that's what makesit so unique is that it can't
(14:22):
be explained in that context.
It's not a drug, but in someways it is, but it isn't.
And it's just, very unique and , it'spharmacological profile is unique.
I know I won't get too deep intoanything, but just everything
about it is very different thanwhat we would normally see.
, we don't know exactly how the brain works,obviously, but we're figuring out receptor
sciences and ligands, and being able tofigure out how drugs fit into receptors.
(14:47):
And they still have yet to figureout how that works with kava.
Like , they stillhaven't gotten there yet.
So we still don't knowhow kava really works.
We have theories and everyonecan have a theory, but we still
don't know how it works.
, but yeah, it was then when you startedyour blog, that's when I was like,
okay, , there's something else about this,, and I didn't know what kava was good.
(15:09):
, I didn't know, , , no one talked abouttheir experience with kava, what it did.
, and it was the only place thatI could find that actually
provided that information.
And it influenced a lot of people.
I wouldn't be sitting here talkingto you if you hadn't made that.
Yeah, , there wouldn'tbe the, , kava forums.
There wouldn't be all thefriends in the network that we
have had you not started that.
So that is an absolute 100% you.
(15:31):
Crucial founding moment thereis when you started that blog and
made that decision to do that.
And also the the Yuku forums.
We had a a portion where doug created
Douglas LaRose (15:39):
after the
Jimmy Price (15:40):
I'll let you tell it . Yeah.
Douglas LaRose (15:41):
The, so the yuku forums . Okay.
So it's actually a funny story.
Like I I'm a big fan of the TV showSurvivor, and I was part of this survivor
forum on the yuku forums called, itwas called Survivor Sucks, but like
a totally ironic title for this.
This forum, it was like people whowere obsessed with Survivor and
(16:01):
posted about it after every episode.
Oh, I want, , Michelle to win or whatever.
And, , people, they would sharepictures and stuff of the TV show.
But I had noticed on the Yukuforums because I had already
started the Kavasseur blog.
So I noticed on the Yukuwebsite, you could start your
own discussion forums for free.
, free was a pretty enticing word.
, so I decided to just start the Yukuforums where people could go and
(16:24):
start threads and discuss kava.
And I just set it up , and createdthe categories and talked about it in
my blog, put links to it in my blog,and then people just started posting.
I think, , you started posting therepretty early and like a few other people.
, and then it just grew into likethis, , pretty active discussion forum.
I remember it's cool that youbring it up cause I remember I
(16:44):
finished graduate school and Imoved back to Ghana to be with my.
Coco farm and I just didn't havethat much time to ever even go online
because A, it was very difficult.
B it was very expensive.
, and c I didn't have any kava inGhana, . So I remember getting an
email from you or a Facebook message orsomething and you're like, Hey, Doug.
(17:07):
, would you mind if I started a kavadiscussion board and I Oh, absolutely.
I Go ahead, man.
That's fine.
It's too much for me to,
. Jimmy Price: There was a stipulation, and I remember it to this day , and
it was, you can't let this turn into adrug forms where we just That's right.
Talk about drugs.
And I absolutely held trueto that statement to the day.
That's right.
Yeah.
, Douglas LaRose: but Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause I was worried about that because Iwas already noticing among kava drinkers
(17:31):
this tendency to experiment with allkinds of other stuff that was unrelated
to Kava kratom and things like that.
And was like, I just do not want thisto become anything other than kava.
I don't want it to become erowid orI don't want it to be like, about
people's mushroom trips, like , ifyou're into that cool man, like move on.
? But I didn't want that to happenon the kava discussion board
(17:52):
because, Kava is so special to me.
It's the only two things that I'veever consumed frequently in my life
are kava and alcohol, and I gave updrinking a while And when I'm not
drinking my kava, and I can't getrelaxed and I can't calm down, I, I
try exercise, I do some of thosethings, but I'm tempted by the bottle.
(18:13):
If I don't have kava and kavakeeps me away from alcohol.
That has a lot to do with, me beinghealthy, me having a job, Yeah.
Me being a decent father isme staying away from alcohol.
Kava is so important to me and I don'twant it to get confused with all the
other crap that's out there that isnot helpful, does not help people.
Doesn't have a traditional historyof helping people and being part
(18:35):
of an important cultural practice.
So I really like, I, and that's why Ihave so much respect for you, because
you've done so much to defend Kava andthere are so many enemies of kava and
especially in our culture, in our country.
And, the community that you've , helpedcreate, has been a real godsend
for kava , I think for everybody.
(18:55):
Not only for Americans, but for, , peoplein the Pacific Islands too, because,
, they grow kava, they sell it to us.
It's a big economic benefit to themand to the, , the islanders that
Have moved to the USand have access to kava
because it's still legal and still
available.
Yeah.
Jimmy Price (19:09):
Yeah.
And honestly it's a team effort, man.
, where we are now is where I hoped.
We would eventually be when we started.
We've gone through so many different upsand downs, rough patches, smooth patches,
great patches, but this being able tospeak openly about our experiences with
kava and not have someone breathingdown the back of our necks about it.
And just being able to talk about how ittruly makes that deep impact in our life.
(19:35):
I feel like I owe my life to kavabecause of the reduction in my
compulsion for drugs, for drugusage, and for seeking and using.
Opioid drugs, it justcompletely ate that desire away.
, given, I don't want that to beconstrued with it removed withdrawals.
Those were gone a long time.
Before I tried kava I wanted tomake sure that I started with
(19:57):
a clean sort of baseline so Icould know where my issues were.
And I guess that's where it came up, thatmy anxiety was a problem at that point.
Yeah.
But you man, you started those boardsand , we just jumped in there and
took over , and I always wanted it tobe a together deal where it was the
kavasseur , and the community behind them.
(20:18):
I think that truly is, , where we'veended up here is that, , we have our
separate platforms, but , trulylike , I see us as, , doing the
same things on all these things.
It's not us Absolutely.
Versus anybody else.
It's, we're promoting the respectfulimage of Kava and it's not something
that we, , have to compete over.
And that's why if someone'syeah I'll make a better website.
(20:40):
I'm like, do it, please.
Please, we're not, I'm, Iwill never tell somebody.
, or someone who's I'llmake a better web for 'em.
I'm like, Hey man, after kava forums,I, you know what, , anything positive
for kava, like I'm 100% for, , I'mnot going to try to, , push anything
down that is positive for kava , andthat's just I'm right there with you.
Like kava, we shouldbe laser focused on it.
It's one of those things where it does nothave the added benefit of an addiction or
(21:05):
any sort of like real physical withdrawalprofile to keep people using it.
So it's one of those things where youhave to find ways to keep drinking it.
Like you have to find reasonsto keep drinking there.
There's, we have all thesedifferent ways of different
recipes and ways of drinking kava.
Then you have, for every otherthing you have, they're polar
opposite in how to quit it.
(21:27):
there's no quitting kava it's,that's such a good point Jimmy
Yeah, it's wild.
Such a good point.
Think and it's it's just oneof those, it kava just, and I
still, I always come back to it.
It occupies such a very unique spot.
And that's where I thinkit just, it shines.
It's not alcohol, it's notcannabis, it's not benzos.
It's not opioids.
It's not these things thathumanity has normally gone to
(21:47):
get high and screw up our life.
This is a different sort of thing.
It doesn't cause the same reaction.
People don't I don't know.
, it's just different.
, of course anybody listening to thiswill know that if you've gotten
this bar and you know us, then youprobably already love kava anyways.
But, it is a very unique sort of feeling.
And it doesn't ruin your life.
(22:08):
That's the biggest sort of takeaway.
It's , it doesn't ruin your life.
. I know that's a , a low bar forsomething, but , when it came down to
it, like every drug that I tried wouldbe something that would eventually,
, end up ruining my life in some way.
And Kava was not that.
Kava is just , anesthetic Planty.
Yeah.
Very vegetable.
Novocaine that really calms you down.
(22:28):
Nova . Novocaine, there'sa band name right there,
. Douglas LaRose: I wanna back up to something you just said because Yeah.
I feel like it's key.
You, you were just saying that wehave to find different ways to drink
it because it's so hard to drink.
People will find all these differentrecipes, they think of different
water temperatures and , differentconcoctions that they can make with kava
and Oh my goodness, you're so right.
(22:49):
, with kava, you really have to try so hard,you have to put in hours of work Yeah.
To get somebody to like kava.
Yeah.
. It's not easy.
You have to make kavafor them all the time.
Day after day.
And it's ex, it's like super expensive.
. It's super subtle.
So most people when you try to getthem to drink kava for the first time
because you know that it's gonna helpthem, , you're trying to help them.
(23:10):
most people are gonna be like, Ican't do this, man, this is horrible.
Yep.
You're making me drink this pond water.
And it's, I'm feeling it, but not really.
, and you really, it's like tryingto convert somebody to a religion.
, you're like, no, trust me.
You're just not getting it.
You just have to keep trying.
, Jimmy Price: you'll get it eventually.
, Douglas LaRose: you'll get it eventually, man.
And then for some people it justnever clicks, ? And that's fine.
Whatever.
(23:30):
Then for other people it's oh my God,my life is never gonna be the same.
This is exactly whatI've been looking for.
I can finally have hours of peace in theday or step from my mind to slow down
and , the world to come to a balance.
. But I think it's a really good point.
It's not , when you're in highschool or you're in college and
you drink for the first time,you have some crazy experience.
(23:51):
Like young people drinking.
, it's two things that unfortunatelyit's like a hand in a glove.
Like they go right all together.
It's always gonna be a good time.
It sucks and
it's unhealthy
and usually causes a lot of problems,but it's like you don't have to try hard
to get somebody to like alcohol, right?
When people smoke weed for thefirst time, they laugh and they
started giggling it in stupid littlethings and they have fun with it.
(24:11):
, the different drugs have differentthings that appeal to people,
but kava it usually takes a fewtimes for most people to get it.
Yeah.
, and if it, if they getit at all, like true.
And that's one of those things where, I'll say it, and I hate
to say it, but kava is not for everyone.
It just, it's not, there's some peoplethat just don't, it do, they don't
(24:33):
like it and it, and there's nothingthey can do and it's just, , that's
that . , , it's, that's okay.
There's nothing wrong with that.
Everybody has their own thing,but kava , it takes effort.
, it's not like you're not gonna just cozyup to a nice mug of kava, , first time
just make sure it's nice and warm too.
But make sure you get thosevapors off the top there.
Oh yeah, that'd be a realnice experience there.
(24:53):
But yeah it's a hard sell for somepeople and for a lot of people.
It's just, you have to have theright motivation for kava and the
motivation for kava is connectivity.
And it's also introspection.
It's also being able tosee what you are doing.
That's been my big thingwith it does . It Gives space.
It provides space for talanoa, whichis co conversation and discussion.
(25:15):
And it provides space for , just takinga moment and actually thinking about
your life or thinking about somethingthat you've done in a different context,
in a, like out of the box thinking itputs you on a different thinking
phase as to what you usually are.
And it's difficult to explain,but it gives you an edge on
being able to observe yourselffrom a different perspective
critically , but without being harsh.
(25:36):
It provides that kind of a pause and thatmoment for you to take things in and not
have to judge things instantly, not haveto knee-jerk reaction to everything.
And it allows you torespond instead of react.
So you have a moment to take asecond and just, , breathe and exist.
Douglas LaRose (25:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It has that mindfulness , when youlearn about mindfulness meditation
and Buddhism and things likethat, it's, , kava , it helps aid.
And mindful thinking and concentration,and it's probably one of the reasons
why it helps you fall asleep, right?
Is certainly if you have a lotof thoughts in your head that are
bouncing
around, kava will help thosethoughts settle down and go
(26:15):
to sleep, and rest your mind.
, and that's what it did for me as astudent was I had just my brain was
moving at a million miles an hourand I had a lot of intrusive thoughts
and, , I would sit down to read anddo research for graduate school.
And kava was the only thing that wouldhelp me, , not coffee, not like black tea
or whatever, but like kava would help me
(26:37):
be able to sit down and focus andconcentrate and not have my mind
jump to, oh, the amazing Spidermanor, , banjo or like whatever of my
other hobbies that I had at the time.
Or
video games.
It was just,
okay, I have my kava, I'm gonna sitdown, I'm gonna write my thesis.
, I wrote a 250 page thesis, half of thetime I was completely just to full of
(26:59):
kava, , and just focused andrelaxed and concentrating.
. But, it's funny when I started
my blog, I remember, and I,and this just jumped into my
head thinking about disgusting
kava recipes.
I ordered a bunch of kavafrom Nakamal at home.
And I had but at that point I hadtried a bunch of instant kavas, and
that was pretty straightforward.
(27:20):
But , I had never reallysqueezed and needed kava.
. So I bought a bag of wow and I think abag of stone or, , something like that.
. And I got my package in the mail andI went to the Nakamal at home website
and they had a YouTube video where theywere like, this is how you make Kava.
And the guy in the video I can't rememberwhat his name was, but he was a funny guy.
Not the owner, but somebody whoused to work at the bar, the kava
(27:41):
bar.
The guy in the video has I thinktwo cups of kava or something
like, or three cups of root.
And he mixes three cups of root.
It's two glass.
Two glasses of water or something.
It's like some crazyproportion of kava to water.
Like way too much kava.
, my first thought when I saw that videowas like, I'm gonna be poor as fuck.
(28:02):
. . Oh God.
If I drink kava every night and Iuse this recipe like I am doomed.
. But I followed the instructions and,
And I made this kava using thatvideo as my guide, and it came
out it was like paint, it lookedlike paint, like brown paint.
Yeah.
And so I was like, okay, here we go.
Yep.
I drank one shell reallyquickly, and it was horrible.
(28:22):
It was like the most disgusting,like nausea inducing thing
I ever tasted in my life.
. And I was like, all right,I'm gonna drink another shell.
Cause I really wanna feelthis for the first time.
Cause it was my firsttime going all in on Kava.
. And I got so sick.
Oh yeah.
. I was
like, so ill, I was so unbelievably sick.
I was throwing up my, I was when I wasin graduate school, I was looking with
(28:44):
my my mother and father, they came homeand they were , they were earlier in
the day they had, so you were gonnago get in and out Burger for dinner.
And I was like, ohyeah, that sounds great.
I love In and Out Burger.
They came home and I was runninginto the bathroom and puking.
Oh.
And they saw me drinking Kapa, andthey were like, what is that stuff?
Oh,
Jimmy Price (29:01):
yOu're doing something stupid, doing drugs.
Douglas LaRose (29:03):
Yeah.
Doing drugs.
Yeah.
And I was like, I'm not gonna beable to eat that in and Out Burger.
I'm sorry, . But but then Irealized, , after I did that.
That video was way wrong, . And I thinkI might have actually emailed Nakamal
at home and been like, Hey, you guysneed to change that video cause wow.
Like that is not gonna give yourcustomers a good experience,
, Jimmy Price: just drink it and throw it back up.
bUt did you feel it though,
(29:24):
? Douglas LaRose: I felt it.
I felt it, but was so not in a goodway that was like, , that, I dunno
if this has happened to you before,it probably has, but if you drink
too much kava too fast, it can havethe opposite effect where it makes
you like really anxious and clammy.
Yeah.
And nauseous and like kindof unstable almost like even
like psychologically unstable.
It had that effect.
It was the opposite of what I wanted.
(29:45):
I was gonna say, should we talka little bit about the the dark
years, just like touch on that?
Jimmy Price (29:50):
Sure.
Let's see . Yeah.
2014 is about when all thatsort of stuff went way down.
When everyone got reallytwisted up and yeah.
2014 there was a falling out.
There was a whole bunch of drama and thekava industry was much smaller back then.
There were maybe, How many,like seven or eight vendors?
(30:10):
There were not very manyvendors at that point.
That sounds about right.
Yeah.
They were still very competitive.
We had vendors that wouldthreaten each other.
We had vendors that were fighting.
, there were people that were makingwebsites about each other., it was
a wild time in the kava industry.
, there were some people that I stilldon't know who sent the glitter bomb.
I still swear I don't knowwho's in the glitter bomb.
There was a glitter bomb.
(30:31):
You know how they had those MailYour Enemies a big like envelope
full of glitter when they openit just, , sprays everywhere.
Uhhuh . And apparently one ofthe vendors received one of these
mails with the glitter bomb in it.
And it's I don't even,I didn't know that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I have a feeling it'sprobably another vendor,
But it was a chaotic time,but , it was a formative time.
We had I believe it was,obviously it was necessary.
(30:53):
It wouldn't have happened, but , we hadto figure out, Where we were at, I guess
what we were, what we needed to do.
And that was our, and I'll honestly sayit was much less maturity in that point.
Very glad to be we're at nowbecause , it was everywhere.
,, I will absolutely own 100% , of myabsenteeism and , my attitude during
the time and . But , it took a whileof just getting to know people.
(31:15):
Personally on, on a very personal levelbefore it all clicked before we realized,
oh, we're, wait, we're all on the sameteam , we shouldn't be fighting each other
. , there was some outside influences therethat did make their way into our circle.
And I would say that by andlarge those negative influences
are today no longer there.
Or if they are there, they haveno voice like they had before.
(31:37):
And we've taken our spots as in, notambassadors of kava but just Hey, if you
wanna know about kava come along with us.
This, we're gonna go on thisjourney with kava, , , if you
want to see it online, come along.
Douglas LaRose (31:47):
Yeah, , from my perspective so I was living in Ethiopia.
I lived in Ethiopia from 2012 to 2014.
And I came back a couple times while I wasliving in Ethiopia and I became friends
with the owner of Paradise Kava in Hawaii.
It's a vendor that no longer exists, butI remember having some phone calls with
him while I was back in the States, andhe would talk about how there were all
(32:12):
these people that were really concernedabout two day kava and how Two Day
Kava was going to get Kava banned andthat it was causing liver problems.
, and so I was like, oh, shit.
That's pretty scary.
And then the acet tests becamelike really in vogue for a minute.
Everybody was doing acet tests.
To, to test their kava.
Yes.
Make sure it wasn't, yeah.
Like you had people that sharepictures of ace tests like in
(32:33):
their bathroom window and stuff.
Uhhuh, . It was just wild.
And I just remember thinking that , like, either kava is good for you or kava is bad
for you, but whatever we're doing here isjust making , it there's a lot of smoke.
We're creating a lot of smoke.
And if people are, like, if peoplewithin the kava community are so
paranoid that they're gonna get sickfrom they're contaminated kava that
(32:57):
might have Issa or two today in it,that if even we are panicking and like
worried about kava, then it's probablynot gonna make it, it's probably
not gonna have a long time survival.
probability.
So I went on the complete extreme of let'sjust let kava growers grow what they want
and let's let vendors sell what they want.
And definitely looking back, Iwould not hold that position now
(33:20):
if I could advise my younger self.
But at the same time I also think thatif , at the end of the day, like the
kava vendors that provide quality,noble kava are, can you be the ones that
succeed?
Yes.
So like those, the ones
who had the, like the quote
unquote spiked kava that had two mixedinto it, adult traded trade, it, they
would have, they wouldn't have succeeded.
(33:41):
They would've eventuallystopped doing that because
they would've been outcompeted.
But the problem was that I thought thatpeople were putting kava in danger by
creating all of this noise around it.
And that eventually the.
Authorities would catch you windof this and say that, oh, so even
the people that drink this, no.
That it can cause liver damage.
I thought that was like a really dangerouskind of narrative to contribute to.
(34:04):
And I also thought therewas no evidence for it.
I, all the research that I did,there isn't basically you said
that no, even that two day stuffis not gonna cause liver damage.
So I didn't want that story out thereand I took this very extreme position and
I just eventually that led to the firejust growing in scope and burning more,
, Jimmy Price: burning long.
So we, yeah, it's been a long road.
(34:25):
We've been on this for very long time.
, we've gone through our differentsituations and now we finally
coalesced together around the ideathat, no one else out there is
a cheerleading, kava like this.
So if they're not, then we're gonna do it.
So it's the spot was there andit's just always been there , and
we've, we have people that like toparticipate and we just have people
(34:46):
that like to lurk, . but, . Yeah.
Yeah.
I think one really important thing, , looking back on
that and then looking at where weare now now, , the way that I see
Kava, , for the past three, fouryears it's really in a great place.
Vendors sell properly labeled safe.
Uncontaminated.
And by uncontaminated
(35:07):
, , no mold, no fungus, no Right bacteria they sell quality kava.
That is what it says it is.
. And there are no safety boards.
There are no like testingagencies that make sure that
the kava is what it says it is.
But the consumers, the cabbagedrinkers have been able to, I think,
exert enough demand for vendors tosell clean, safe, strong kava.
(35:32):
, and I think that we've done that asa community and I think that it's a
great example of of customers andvendors in a back and forth creating
a standard for what's of good quality.
Jimmy Price (35:42):
Agreed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's just a natural thing.
And I think it's the fact that.
. It was so chaotic asthat we went through it.
We were the ones that kind ofwitnessed it happening as it matured.
, there weren't any, there werelike two kava bars when this
started, or one, I think years.
It was just one.
So it in there's over 300.
So , it's a big machine now.
It's gone from something very small , and,, boutique and esoteric and, , what is that?
(36:07):
And it's gone from that to justsomething that people might actually
start knowing on a regular basis.
I've we're gonna get ait here in Nashville.
It does.
It is small.
It's still small.
Douglas LaRose (36:18):
I was just gonna say, I think that both you , and
I between the two of us, we know.
, everyone.
. Yeah.
So it's still like pretty small cuzlike between the two of us, we, I think
that we know every vendor personally.
So it's still not the soda business
. Jimmy Price: That's true.
And , I think that's whatmakes it really special too.
Yeah.
, I'm not somebody and I've justkinda walked in here and been
like, Hey, can I be a part of this?
(36:39):
, I've gone into Zoom meetingsfrom Australia about kava
and their legislation and juste anyone can be part of this.
It's not something thathas restrictions on it.
It's purely a global thing andyou can just walk up to it.
And that's, I think that's still a reallyinteresting aspect the kava industry
still is that it's still accessible.
And Absolutely.
I think it still goes backto kava takes dedication and
(37:01):
it takes people that love it.
, and that's the way that Kavahas been since the beginning.
It's required people that loved it.
It wouldn't be around it ifthe appreciation and love for
kava weren't there, it wouldn'thave so many variations.
There wouldn't be so many differentcultivars it wouldn't be present , and
we know that it was carried bycanoe from one country to another.
So , it demands certain peopleto really look after it.
(37:24):
, when I was in Hawaii, one of thethings that was said quite often
was that, , I didn't choose kava.
It shows me and truly, in termsof the things that we do, yeah.
Kava shows us, man , wedidn't have a choice in that.
It was gonna, , we were gonna do that.
We were gonna, I agree.
Go through this , and be what we are forkava , and , it's not hard for me to put
up a really big, nice picture of kava.
(37:45):
It's not difficult.
There things you have to , overlookcertain aspects or say only if you
take it this certain amount of timesor don't use it for two weeks straight.
Or , it doesn't have those constraintsand it's just it's a wild different thing.
And of course like it goes backto the love that it demands
and it requires, To grow.
, when you meet the people that grow kavait's, , they, you look at 'em and you're
(38:06):
like, yeah, I can tell you grow kava bythe way you look it just, they exude
kava it is just something about it.
It's not something you choose.
If it really wants you,you don't have a choice.
Cause Kavas coming from Korea, so
, Douglas LaRose: you don't have a chance.
Hey, kava can come from me all at once.
That's right.
Welcome.
I think, , before we close this out,one of the people that I really wanted
to shine a light on is is Mike Munsell
Because Mike he was, , com withKaVo was one of the early vendors.
(38:29):
And, , there's a lot of kavavendors out there and a lot of
them, , are from the Pacific Islands.
A lot of them have rootsin the Pacific Islands.
Jimmy Price (38:37):
Yeah.
Literally.
Yeah.
Figuratively,
. Douglas LaRose: But Mike, , Mike was one of these people that had a lot of anxiety
in his life, , I think growing up andas an adult, and Kava helped him a lot.
But he, , he didn't just become a kavavendor who wanted to have a business.
He was really deeply caring of thecommunities in Fiji and Vanuatu.
(38:58):
Yep.
Would go, and travel extensively in thosecountries make deals and relationships
with kava farming families work oncommunity projects in those countries.
And I just really wanna underscore , howto this day, , how much inspiration
I get from, , the life of Mike.
Who just passed awaya couple of years ago.
It's really rare that you findpeople like that in your life.
(39:19):
And he was really just one of a kind.
And he did so much for the Kava community.
E even when I wasbuttoning heads with Mike
, when during this the two day Wars , the two day wars.
That's it.
At the end of the day.
I remember one
time I had posted something really stupidon my blog about about two day and how
like big alcohol was coming after Kava.
I don't know if you remember that.
And Mike called me on my phone.
(39:41):
I was like, cooking dinner and I think Iwas just, , drinking wine or something.
I was just drinking alcohol.
And Mike called me on myphone and just cold called me.
And I, and it was Mike.
So I picked up the phone.
I don't like to pick up the phone whenpeople just randomly call me, but I saw
that it was Mike, so I answered the phone.
Billings, Montana, and and hewas like, Hey man, how's it going?
I was like, oh, pretty good.
And he is yeah, I wanted totalk about that blog post.
(40:02):
, after doing kind of niceties and he'syeah, I wanted to talk about that blog
post cuz I know it's not coming froma healthy place, ? And I know that
you're struggling , and that's fine,, but it's not coming from a, it doesn't
seem like it's coming from a happyplace and it's not gonna help anybody.
And I was like, you know what, man?
You're totally right.
? And he was like, checking in onme, he was like really concerned
about my health and my wellbeing.
(40:22):
And he was like, yeah, you seemlike you're angry right now and you
wanna you want me to send you somekava and , drink some shells of kava
and get back on track and, , I justthought that was so like emblematic and
definitive of Mike's character
to be so caring about another person
that he had never even met.
But.
Who he knew and he was worried about, and he was rightly worried about
(40:42):
, just, I just wanna
send those thoughts out thosefeelings out to Mike and his family.
Yeah.
Cause he's been such
a huge keystone of this
community in the past 20 years.
Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah.
Mike was a great guy.
He was someone with manyyears behind his eyes.
I truly would be like, Mike,just text me wherever you go.
Just send me pictures where you go.
(41:02):
I wanna live through you.
He truly lived the lifethat I wish I could live.
He would just fly out to Van Watu andjust, , look over like seedlings of Kava
, he would just be able to just go and dothat kind of stuff , and, , bring water
filters with him , and seller power thingsand all that stuff with him as well.
So not only did he cometo , remove a resource, but
also give a resource as well.
So he did try to giveback as much as he took.
(41:25):
And it actually angered quite alot of people in the process too.
He was a very successful business personand he went directly to farmers and did
quite a bit of cutting out middlemen.
And it did not go over verywell when that went down.
But , he always had a veryunique way of doing it.
And he was just like,what, let me add it.
, I'll go over there myselfand take care of it.
Instead of just, , call somebody,he's I'll go, I'll do it myself.
(41:47):
, him , and the owner of of Kavasociety got together, and created
a fresh green bottled beverage.
And the lenghts they went to goand create this beverage were.
Extraordinary.
They were lugging I think they said50 or 60 kilos of fresh kava roots
on the carryon on the airplane.
And dragging these things throughthe airports to get these to
(42:09):
the places where they were gonnatest out , their equipment.
And , they were all over thecountry of New Zealand working to
get these things taken care of andmade bottled up and everything.
It truly was a herculean effort.
For a while there I was worried.
But there are a lot of people that arestepping up and taking the place and
one of Mike's friends and one of ourfriends Morgan, who used to actually
(42:31):
Morgan had no interaction with the kavaindustry whatsoever when we knew him.
He was a member of Kavaforums and he was just a blog.
He did a blog called the KavaFlow, and he actually ended up
buying Kaman Kabb after Mike Pass.
So we've watched the industry go fromvery little to, to what it is today.
And we've been there forit and watched it grow up.
So it's been quite, quite a good thing.
(42:52):
But yeah, Mike truly wasan inspiration for me.
I saw his kava patch.
I was able to walk around inhis cova patch in Hawaii and
see the plants that he planted.
It was a very special experienceto be able to walk through
where Mike stood in Hawaii.
His shoes were large, but thereare quite a number of people
that are looking to fill them.
And they do a good job of it.
(43:14):
And he will never be replaced.
Mike was one of a kind but his legacywill be sought to be equaled from now on.
But Commonwealth Kava will alwayshave an interesting story attached
to it but yeah, I think that Mike,
Douglas LaRose (43:25):
Yeah, I was just gonna say for me, I think Mike In the
past, , five to 10 years, he's beenthe most, , influential person in Kava.
And, , particularly in the United Stateskava scene, the overseas kava scene, I
think that he really quietly led , a verylike, peaceful movement of kava drinkers.
Yep.
To get kava to a better placein a more respected place.
Jimmy Price (43:47):
He told me himself, , the reason he's doing it all is cuz
he wanted to drink good kava . Andthat's, yeah, that's great.
That's truly the way that some of thebest kava companies have started is just
people just wanna get a good line on somekava that they like personally and it
ends up turning into, Hey, let's sell it
Douglas LaRose (44:02):
Yeah, that makes me think of the kava roots.
That's another very small vendorthat is, , a very small company.
But I know that the owner of the Kavaroots and , he source, like what he
considers the best kava and sells it.
It's very expensive, but it's very good.
. And yeah, it's
Jimmy Price (44:17):
The same deal.
Douglas LaRose (44:18):
It's not a big business.
It's not like his mainfocus, just the side project,
, Jimmy Price: yep.
That's a lot for this episode, . Yeah.
But hopefully anybody listening mighthave gotten a little bit better of
understanding of where we come from asindividuals in this whole puzzle of kava.
We don't make any money doing what we do.
We're not paid to havethe opinions that we have.
(44:39):
We don't get kickbacks.
, Doug might get some free kata reviewand that's if now that's totally fine.
And then Doug's a kava reviewer,and that's what we expect actually.
But in terms of being paid, we are paidin the stories that we hear, we are
paid in the people that talk about how,hey, I don't wanna drink alcohol anymore.
That's that sort of thing is the payment.
(45:01):
That we get.
And that is truly some ofthe most lasting payment.
I can think back about , the interactionsthat I've had with individuals that have
been like, eye-opening and just riveting.
And I, , I can remember those specificmoments in my life where people have
been like, Hey, this actually works.
This is awesome.
, I really appreciate you guys bringingthis to the attention of everyone.
And , that is our payment.
(45:21):
It truly is.
It's weird.
Some people don't even wanna believe that.
It's that strange that I guess thatwe would be that willing to donate so
much of our time and our effort andart , just our everything to, to kava.
Know that it comes from the heart.
We're here because we love kava.
We want to help steward it inthe most respectful way possible
with science at the forefrontand logic and no misinformation.
(45:45):
And we will, , continuefrom that spot from here on.
And that, I agreed at thebeginning when you said, yeah, I
guess you can make another forum.
And I didn't wanna do itwithout your permission.
I bought kava forums like , it wasjust a purchased web name cuz I was
like, I was not going to do anythinguntil I got the kava urs okay.
About it.
. This needs to be part of everything. We've gone a long time together and , it
(46:07):
is good to be where we are right now.
Yeah.
And be on the same page with stuff.
And I can say, Hey, Doug,check out this paper.
, this is awesome.
And you can be like this is great.
, we read the same paper and everything, andit's just, , it's fun and it's enriching.
It makes my life better.
And that's really why I do it.
It's my hobby.
? I don't fly drones.
I don't play video games.
I, , , I read kava papers.
I look up Kave information online.
Like I want to know more.
And I think you, you share that samesort of fire for kava and that, I think
(46:31):
most people listening to this, if they'vegotten this far, you probably do too.
But it truly, takes that dedicationand love for kava to appreciate it.
When you do, it's somethingthat you just can't look over
And, , just to pull back the curtain a little bit on my blog,
the video reviews that I do, I believeit or not, like when I do one of those
videos, I just do it all in one take.
I just sit down.
, you probably can believe it cuz someof 'em are so sloppy . But I just
(46:53):
sit down and I turn on the camera andI'm like, Hey everybody, this is C
sewer, , I'm at you from Baltimore.
I got this new cova, I'm gonna try it out.
Yeah.
It tastes great.
Oh, the effects really mellow.
, it that's the extent of it.
I do no research.
I just turn on the video and I startrecording and , I should probably
actually do more videos than I do.
But I just get lazy and I gettired at the end of the workday
(47:14):
and I just wanna drink my kava and
. Jimmy Price: Exactly.
But anyways,
It's such a simple thing that blog, it's been a hobby
for 15, 16 years or whatever and it'sreally, it's that straightforward.
I get kava, I either buy it or peoplesend it to me and then I review it.
That's it.
Yep.
Haven't made any money and probablywill never make money doing it.
Jimmy Price (47:33):
So Yeah,
and that's one of the things I thinkthat makes us a bit different is that we
don't actually take any money from anyvendors to forward any sort of agenda
you can see that there'sads on kava forms.
I, somebody was like you sell the ads.
I'm like, actually we don't, , youcan't purchase those ads.
Those are there because those are , thecompanies that , we've personally found
that are reputable and that will takecare of problems if they arise and have
(47:57):
good quality kaas and all that good stuff.
It's not even somethingthat you could pay for.
And I've had people try to pay for it.
I've had many people try to purchasekava forms, but , it's not a commodity.
kava forums is our history.
It's our past.
It actually, it contains in, thismay not be something that many
people know, but kava forums actuallydoes contain the Yuku forums.
Within it.
If you go to legacysection, at the bottom.
(48:18):
You can find all of our old conversationstalking about what Kava does.
, I think I made kava with snow one time,cuz everybody's oh, it's snowing . Has
anyone made kava with snow before?
I don't know.
Let's be the first.
You can go back and see likeall of our, actually went fine.
Like I took some snow and made sure therewasn't yellow and made kava with it.
But it did work out it's a tome ofinformation of just our past and our
(48:41):
history and the places that we'vegone , in this whole, , weird puzzle and
weird, , winding path of kava , that justhas so many different turns and twists.
But yeah, . I think that's probably good.
Nice.
On that note,
Douglas LaRose (48:54):
The hula and the next episode will come back with another paper.
, something fun, somethinganthropological, historical.
Jimmy Price (49:00):
This is the Kava Lounge.
Thank you for
Douglas LaRose (49:02):
thank you for taking a seat and having a
Jimmy Price (49:04):
shell.
Right on.
Pour in the tanoa and sit down and enjoy another
session of the Kava Lounge
welcome to the show, everyone.
Welcome back.
. Jimmy Price: all right.
I'll lead it off here, doug, let's havesome background on our our own personal
stories here and how we came to understandkava and how it came into our lives
and, what kind of role it played for us.
That sounds like a great idea, Jimmy.
(00:29):
I.
, I just read this really long,complicated paper and you're
changing it up for this episode, huh?
Look, it's a cool idea, you keepme on my toes, Jimmy, as always.
Of course.
. It's my job.
Yeah.
Kava, huh?
, how did we get into Kava?
I think we probably both havevery different stories to tell.
For me I was a young 18 year old
or 19 year old and SouthernCalifornia had just finished high
(00:51):
school and was really anxiousabout what was gonna come
afterwards.
and I was going to community collegeand at the time I was working at a
health food store called Jimbos in SanDiego I was trying a bunch of different
stuff that they had for anxiety and forto help me sleep and stuff like that.
And I'm not a big fan ofthe of the Devil's lettuce.
(01:12):
, the Mary Jane, I'm not a big fan.
I had some bad run-ins with Mary Janeand the Paranoia, so I never really got
much medicinal use out of marijuana.
So I was asking calming herbs andtonics and things of that nature.
And after trying a bunch of differentstuff like the roots and, yeah, really
strong chamomile tea which I still enjoy.
(01:33):
I eventually, came upon a little tinthat looked like a like a cocoa, hot
cocoa tin or something, but it was calleda kava king, and it was an instant kava.
And the lady that worked atthe natural pharmacy of this
health food store said, oh,that stuff is like super
strong , be careful with it.
And I was like none of thisother stuff has worked.
So how strong can it really be?
(01:53):
So I bought this tin of kava and Iwent home and took a big tablespoon
and mixed it in a glass of water.
And I tell you, within five minutes Iknew that this was the thing for me.
There was none of that reversetolerance, none of that kind of subtlety
that some people complain about.
It really hit me right awayand that anxiety that I had
as a young student who is.
(02:16):
Being thrown into a terrifying world.
It really did melt awaythat just after one
glass, one big glass of kava.
And that was, , that was the,that's really the summary of
how I got introduced to Kava.
Of course, , it's it's now25 years later, so a lot has
happened between now and then.
Not 25 years, like 20 years
And yeah, a lot has happenedbetween then and now.
(02:37):
But
Jimmy Price (02:37):
that story, , it keeps
unfolding.
So that's part one for me.
Part one,
Kava came into my life several timesactually once in college, and then after
that, it was several years later, butthe first time I came in contact with
anything kava related was with a kava,I think an kava extract that I bought
from I am Shaman or something like that.
And We we didn't know what to do with it.
(02:59):
So me and my roommate we took Tostitosships and dipped them into the into the
extract jar and just ate it off the chip.
So that was terrible.
But, and it didn't really, it didn'tstand out to me personally at that time.
However, my roommate , incollege was quite o c d.
He would get up in the middle ofthe night, go check his doors and
windows, on his car, if thingsweren't going in the right order,
(03:20):
he'd have to do 'em over again.
He said that after he took that kavaextract, he's I can see clearly.
He was like, I don't nuburdened by my compulsion.
And this was back in 2003, 2004.
So that was my first inkling that maybethere could be something more to this
.And I held it in the back of my mind, but of course I had more drugs to do.
I was in college , as one doesin college, we, , do drugs,
, apparently that's just what do no,it isn't for anyone listening.
(03:43):
That's not what you do.
But that's what I chose to do.
and as such, I paid the price for it.
And I ended up in treatment and , heck, itwas like, it was one of the last options.
, , you, when you want to take a day, youjust want a day for, you don't have
to go and get your drug of choice.
You just want one day whereyou're free of that, you.
You're stuck in a spot,you don't wanna be in.
(04:03):
And that's where I was at.
And I went to treatment got clean andwent to went to a Narcotics Anonymous
for about for about six or eight months.
And I was still having those reallyrepetitive thoughts and the desires
to use that same drug of choice,the, of course, mine were opiates.
But , it, at that time I was stilldealing with a good load of anxiety.
(04:25):
Just, from the unsteady state of mylife, , we just got outta treatment.
It was in n na for six months aroundpeople I'd never seen before.
Kava, these are my new family . Butafter that I searched for a
natural way of relieving anxiety.
I looked through all the different naturaloptions as supplements running into kava
I've actually started taking the GaiaHerbs, phyto Cap kava pills from Trader
(04:47):
Joe's or one of those health food stores.
But they actually worked, theyreduced my anxiety level and I
was like , this actually hasan effect I was not expecting.
And you're usually, used to those.
Things where it's oh, you gottatake it for six months before you
feel it, , that kind of thing.
It just doesn't, itdoesn't hit you right away.
But this was just like atotally different effect.
I could feel the anxiety andstress just rush away from me.
(05:08):
, I was like, oh, okay.
There's obviouslysomething different here.
So I went out and I got some kavapills, the, , the yellow ones that
you can find at the health food store.
So I was like, all right, sopeople make a drink outta this.
Oh, yeah.
And so I took the yellow kava extractpills, broke 'em open and water.
And of course that just doesnot mix together at all.
But I slowly figured out thatyou're supposed to, , take
(05:29):
a bag and actually need it.
And I would say sometime around 2005.
is when I actually got myfirst proper kava experience.
And that was with , the Kava King.
The Kava King's Reserve tin.
I bought them until theywere no longer available.
One tablespoon wasenough and that was that.
But after that I had to, figure out,, how do I actually get this stuff?
(05:50):
Then I found, knock 'em all at home,found the stone kava and yeah, that's
when my real love for Kava started.
Cuz it was just like, okay, there's alot more to this than what people were
saying I knew that there , , it had tobe more to it, but at that point it was a.
Still such an esoteric thing and not anormal subject to discuss with people.
It still felt like kind like adrug, I was doing a drug, but in
(06:10):
truth, it never panned out that way.
I was told a lot and NarcoticsAnonymous that, , you're
switching seats on the Titanic.
, you're still sinking if you're using,but this kava is a different thing.
It is not a drug in the traditional sense.
It never has made me crave it.
If I don't get it or if I justcan't have it, something's going
down and I can't have my kava, it'snot gonna end up with me shaking,
(06:31):
sweating, , my pupils are dilatedand I'm trying to, , get my next fix.
But it's not like that.
It doesn't have those sort of effects andI've never that sort of reaction from it.
And , I feel like that I'm aresearch study of one going
on however many years old.
But I've taken the addictive drugsand I've been addicted to those
addictive drugs and kava justdoesn't have the same properties.
(06:52):
I've gone long-winded, but whereI come from personally, we are
actually nothing to do with kava,nothing to do with the plant.
So I do restaurant refrigeration.
Oh.
And so that's a shocker for everyone.
They're like , where do you teach?
It's no, I'm sorry.
I don't, I'm actually just,I just do ice machines.
But kava is truly my passion.
Like from when I wake up, I thinkabout, , something to do with kava,
(07:13):
but it's not, "I've gotta drink it".
It's always something on the periphery,which makes me know that I actually
like it for what it is and not, , forwhat my reward circuits are telling me.
And that's a big deal for me.
I've always said that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Douglas LaRose (07:27):
I can testify to your.
Insatiable thirst forknowledge about kava?
It's very infectious.
. I think when I wake up, I actually dothink about drinking kava, , but I don't
I don't drink kava until it's like 4:00 PM
That that's my, you're the Kavasseur.
That's all right.
. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
So when I left San Diego in2002 I moved up to San Francisco
(07:47):
and then on to Santa Barbara.
And when I was in college,I had a lot of anxiety.
I have a very active mind.
I still have a very active mind, and Ialways am looking for things to quench
my curiosity, like reading a lot ofbooks, , playing music, getting involved
in all kinds of crazy stuff, and.
Kava was always there as something thatwould like, help me settle down and
(08:11):
stop my mind from moving at a millionmiles an hour at the end of the day.
But when I was in college in, at theUniversity of California in Santa Barbara,
I was taking six classes at a time.
I was working, I was doing a lot ofextracurricular stuff, and I was poor.
I was like super poor.
As you are when you're in college.
And I worked at this little liquor storeand probably made like $200 a week.
(08:32):
But I would go to the thegrocery store in Santa Barbara
and they didn't have the kava.
You couldn't get it.
I didn't like really trythat hard, to be honest.
I probably could have gone online andordered Kava King, but it was just
like harder to buy stuff back then.
This is like 2002, 2003.
Yeah.
, you couldn't just go online on, onAmazon and put in your debit card number
(08:53):
and get a, get something in the mailwith, in three days that it's like a
different world now than it was then.
Yes.
So I went to the grocery store and Ifound the yogi tea, the the cinnamon
Jimmy Price (09:04):
yogi release.
Douglas LaRose (09:05):
And I would load up on like 10 boxes of that.
It was like pretty expensive.
, at that time it was I think 299, I think today, now it's 5 99.
But I would load up on boxes of that stuffand then I would buy chamomile tea, which
was super cheap and I would always put akava stress relief in two chamomile bags.
and a cup like a, , a mug.
(09:26):
And that would be my nightlytea that I would drink.
. And then when I would finish drinkinga tea I would usually suck on the
bag.
Of the stress relief.
Cause like I could feel thekava like coming out of it.
And I actually I still tell peoplelike that's, that stuff is pretty good.
I don't, I'm not gonnaever dis c stress relief.
I don't know if it's likestill the same as it was back
Jimmy Price (09:44):
then.
It's not . Okay.
Okay.
It's not, the one thing that'sdifferent now is , they don't
put licorice from there.
And I think that's what was causingproblems cuz we were getting people
that had some weird issues and theywere like, why is Kava making me do this?
And first of all, you're drinkingYogi tea and that's not really kava.
And second of all, , I think, Ireally do think that the black
licorice caused some issues.
So they took that out and, huh.
(10:06):
I don't know.
It has about 25 milligramsof Kava lactone per teabag.
So you're getting about the same as,okay, you're getting a kava candy.
, huh?
When I
Douglas LaRose (10:15):
was like 22, 23, I've always been very sensitive to any
kind of psychoactive or any kindof substance or food or beverage.
So , it did the desired thing for me,and it was very noticeable because I I
wasn't like hyping up kave in my head.
I didn't know anything about it.
I just knew that I hadtried it and it had worked.
And whenever I came back toproducts that had kava in them,
(10:37):
they would always have that effect.
But I hadn't readanything about, Vanuatu.
I hadn't read.
What's the name of the
getting Stone With Savages.
Getting Stone Savages?
Yeah.
Yeah.
By j Martin Troost.
I hadn't read that book yet.
So I didn't know anything about KavaDrinking Culture or nakamals or anything.
So I had no romantic image in myhead of what Kava was supposed to do.
But then , fast forward, , I was in thePeace Corps and when I was in the Peace
(10:59):
Corps in Ghana, I had no access to Kava.
I might have brought a couple boxesof Yogi Tea with me to Ghana.
I can't remember.
But when I came back to the us I,when I was in graduate school, that's
when I started the kavasseur blogbecause I started reading about
kava and learning about it in mystudies as an anthropology student.
And then I went online and I foundvendors who were selling kava
(11:21):
root, and I just became obsessed.
That's why I started the blog,because there was nothing online.
Except for some YouTube videos wherepeople showed you how to make kava,
you could find no information on it.
So I just read every single website from,, from cover , to cover knock 'em All at
Home, kava by Rex , Hawaiian Kava Center.
All these kava vendors thatare, a lot of 'em are now gone.
(11:42):
But I became obsessed and I justwanted to try every single kava.
I spent, , hundreds and hundredsof dollars that I didn't have on
kava that I wanted to try.
And I started just writing these blogentries and there was a huge reaction.
There were like, people were emailingme, people were, , commenting on my blog.
It was like this really exciting,stimulating back and forth I was having
(12:04):
with, I guess what was like the earlydays of the Kava online community.
Jimmy Price (12:08):
That's where my online kava thing started is when you started
your blog, because I was lookingaround and there was a blue light
posts, there was a few erowid tripreports and an entry for it on erowid.
But other than that, there wasnot really all that much on kava.
There wasn't anything online.
, you could just, it was just a blank.
(12:30):
It's just nothing.
Those days where all you could findwas a blue light post about it then
at that point I was still lookingaround for, , what is this stuff?
, what's the story behind kava?
, there's something morehere that's not being told.
Like the labels on the bottlesand stuff don't really tell
you everything about kava, but.
Yeah, this is one of the thingsthat some people may connect with,
is I spent nine years in NA and thatentire nine year period I drank kava.
(12:53):
I drink it every single night.
And it was my antidepressant,it was my anti-anxiety.
It was my my nightcap is what kindof shut me down and helped my brain
completely go to sleep at night andget more rest than I would normally.
But I made the kava starting fromsix months clean to nine years in na.
Every day.
And for the first good portion ofthat, struggled pretty heavily with
(13:16):
thinking about, is this a relapse?
am I using a drug?
Am I going against the very thing thatI'm, , trying not to do here in, in N.A.,
, but it did not actually turn out that way.
, this is another one that kinda leavesyou without words when you try to
describe kava and I know it's specialbecause is one of the only quote
unquote substances that I can't reallydescribe and put into words that
(13:37):
are relatable in a way that's liketranscribable in a about drug because.
It doesn't grab you and directs you.
, you can have a strong kava experienceif you want to, but it's not going
to make you , get in your car anddrive your, , car into a ditch and
you not remember anything it's notfour wheel, four wheel on top, but but
yeah before wheel on top, literally.
Yeah.
Literally.
But I struggled with that in my mindfor quite a number of years in na and.
(14:01):
. It took me realizing that mylife is not anyone else's to live.
And the effect that Kavagives me is not harmful.
It does not cause meto go rob my neighbors.
It does not cause me to, , empty mybank account when I don't have money.
It's not going to, , cause me to dothese things that these other drugs
would absolutely cause me to do.
And I think that's what makesit so unique is that it can't
(14:22):
be explained in that context.
It's not a drug, but in someways it is, but it isn't.
And it's just, very unique and , it'spharmacological profile is unique.
I know I won't get too deep intoanything, but just everything
about it is very different thanwhat we would normally see.
, we don't know exactly how the brain works,obviously, but we're figuring out receptor
sciences and ligands, and being able tofigure out how drugs fit into receptors.
(14:47):
And they still have yet to figureout how that works with kava.
Like , they stillhaven't gotten there yet.
So we still don't knowhow kava really works.
We have theories and everyonecan have a theory, but we still
don't know how it works.
, but yeah, it was then when you startedyour blog, that's when I was like,
okay, , there's something else about this,, and I didn't know what kava was good.
(15:09):
, I didn't know, , , no one talked abouttheir experience with kava, what it did.
, and it was the only place thatI could find that actually
provided that information.
And it influenced a lot of people.
I wouldn't be sitting here talkingto you if you hadn't made that.
Yeah, , there wouldn'tbe the, , kava forums.
There wouldn't be all thefriends in the network that we
have had you not started that.
So that is an absolute 100% you.
(15:31):
Crucial founding moment thereis when you started that blog and
made that decision to do that.
And also the the Yuku forums.
We had a a portion where doug created
Douglas LaRose (15:39):
after the
Jimmy Price (15:40):
I'll let you tell it . Yeah.
Douglas LaRose (15:41):
The, so the yuku forums . Okay.
So it's actually a funny story.
Like I I'm a big fan of the TV showSurvivor, and I was part of this survivor
forum on the yuku forums called, itwas called Survivor Sucks, but like
a totally ironic title for this.
This forum, it was like people whowere obsessed with Survivor and
(16:01):
posted about it after every episode.
Oh, I want, , Michelle to win or whatever.
And, , people, they would sharepictures and stuff of the TV show.
But I had noticed on the Yukuforums because I had already
started the Kavasseur blog.
So I noticed on the Yukuwebsite, you could start your
own discussion forums for free.
, free was a pretty enticing word.
, so I decided to just start the Yukuforums where people could go and
(16:24):
start threads and discuss kava.
And I just set it up , and createdthe categories and talked about it in
my blog, put links to it in my blog,and then people just started posting.
I think, , you started posting therepretty early and like a few other people.
, and then it just grew into likethis, , pretty active discussion forum.
I remember it's cool that youbring it up cause I remember I
(16:44):
finished graduate school and Imoved back to Ghana to be with my.
Coco farm and I just didn't havethat much time to ever even go online
because A, it was very difficult.
B it was very expensive.
, and c I didn't have any kava inGhana, . So I remember getting an
email from you or a Facebook message orsomething and you're like, Hey, Doug.
(17:07):
, would you mind if I started a kavadiscussion board and I Oh, absolutely.
I Go ahead, man.
That's fine.
It's too much for me to,
. Jimmy Price: There was a stipulation, and I remember it to this day , and
it was, you can't let this turn into adrug forms where we just That's right.
Talk about drugs.
And I absolutely held trueto that statement to the day.
That's right.
Yeah.
, Douglas LaRose: but Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause I was worried about that because Iwas already noticing among kava drinkers
(17:31):
this tendency to experiment with allkinds of other stuff that was unrelated
to Kava kratom and things like that.
And was like, I just do not want thisto become anything other than kava.
I don't want it to become erowid orI don't want it to be like, about
people's mushroom trips, like , ifyou're into that cool man, like move on.
? But I didn't want that to happenon the kava discussion board
(17:52):
because, Kava is so special to me.
It's the only two things that I'veever consumed frequently in my life
are kava and alcohol, and I gave updrinking a while And when I'm not
drinking my kava, and I can't getrelaxed and I can't calm down, I, I
try exercise, I do some of thosethings, but I'm tempted by the bottle.
(18:13):
If I don't have kava and kavakeeps me away from alcohol.
That has a lot to do with, me beinghealthy, me having a job, Yeah.
Me being a decent father isme staying away from alcohol.
Kava is so important to me and I don'twant it to get confused with all the
other crap that's out there that isnot helpful, does not help people.
Doesn't have a traditional historyof helping people and being part
(18:35):
of an important cultural practice.
So I really like, I, and that's why Ihave so much respect for you, because
you've done so much to defend Kava andthere are so many enemies of kava and
especially in our culture, in our country.
And, the community that you've , helpedcreate, has been a real godsend
for kava , I think for everybody.
(18:55):
Not only for Americans, but for, , peoplein the Pacific Islands too, because,
, they grow kava, they sell it to us.
It's a big economic benefit to themand to the, , the islanders that
Have moved to the USand have access to kava
because it's still legal and still
available.
Yeah.
Jimmy Price (19:09):
Yeah.
And honestly it's a team effort, man.
, where we are now is where I hoped.
We would eventually be when we started.
We've gone through so many different upsand downs, rough patches, smooth patches,
great patches, but this being able tospeak openly about our experiences with
kava and not have someone breathingdown the back of our necks about it.
And just being able to talk about how ittruly makes that deep impact in our life.
(19:35):
I feel like I owe my life to kavabecause of the reduction in my
compulsion for drugs, for drugusage, and for seeking and using.
Opioid drugs, it justcompletely ate that desire away.
, given, I don't want that to beconstrued with it removed withdrawals.
Those were gone a long time.
Before I tried kava I wanted tomake sure that I started with
(19:57):
a clean sort of baseline so Icould know where my issues were.
And I guess that's where it came up, thatmy anxiety was a problem at that point.
Yeah.
But you man, you started those boardsand , we just jumped in there and
took over , and I always wanted it tobe a together deal where it was the
kavasseur , and the community behind them.
(20:18):
I think that truly is, , where we'veended up here is that, , we have our
separate platforms, but , trulylike , I see us as, , doing the
same things on all these things.
It's not us Absolutely.
Versus anybody else.
It's, we're promoting the respectfulimage of Kava and it's not something
that we, , have to compete over.
And that's why if someone'syeah I'll make a better website.
(20:40):
I'm like, do it, please.
Please, we're not, I'm, Iwill never tell somebody.
, or someone who's I'llmake a better web for 'em.
I'm like, Hey man, after kava forums,I, you know what, , anything positive
for kava, like I'm 100% for, , I'mnot going to try to, , push anything
down that is positive for kava , andthat's just I'm right there with you.
Like kava, we shouldbe laser focused on it.
It's one of those things where it does nothave the added benefit of an addiction or
(21:05):
any sort of like real physical withdrawalprofile to keep people using it.
So it's one of those things where youhave to find ways to keep drinking it.
Like you have to find reasonsto keep drinking there.
There's, we have all thesedifferent ways of different
recipes and ways of drinking kava.
Then you have, for every otherthing you have, they're polar
opposite in how to quit it.
(21:27):
there's no quitting kava it's,that's such a good point Jimmy
Yeah, it's wild.
Such a good point.
Think and it's it's just oneof those, it kava just, and I
still, I always come back to it.
It occupies such a very unique spot.
And that's where I thinkit just, it shines.
It's not alcohol, it's notcannabis, it's not benzos.
It's not opioids.
It's not these things thathumanity has normally gone to
(21:47):
get high and screw up our life.
This is a different sort of thing.
It doesn't cause the same reaction.
People don't I don't know.
, it's just different.
, of course anybody listening to thiswill know that if you've gotten
this bar and you know us, then youprobably already love kava anyways.
But, it is a very unique sort of feeling.
And it doesn't ruin your life.
(22:08):
That's the biggest sort of takeaway.
It's , it doesn't ruin your life.
. I know that's a , a low bar forsomething, but , when it came down to
it, like every drug that I tried wouldbe something that would eventually,
, end up ruining my life in some way.
And Kava was not that.
Kava is just , anesthetic Planty.
Yeah.
Very vegetable.
Novocaine that really calms you down.
(22:28):
Nova . Novocaine, there'sa band name right there,
. Douglas LaRose: I wanna back up to something you just said because Yeah.
I feel like it's key.
You, you were just saying that wehave to find different ways to drink
it because it's so hard to drink.
People will find all these differentrecipes, they think of different
water temperatures and , differentconcoctions that they can make with kava
and Oh my goodness, you're so right.
(22:49):
, with kava, you really have to try so hard,you have to put in hours of work Yeah.
To get somebody to like kava.
Yeah.
. It's not easy.
You have to make kavafor them all the time.
Day after day.
And it's ex, it's like super expensive.
. It's super subtle.
So most people when you try to getthem to drink kava for the first time
because you know that it's gonna helpthem, , you're trying to help them.
(23:10):
most people are gonna be like, Ican't do this, man, this is horrible.
Yep.
You're making me drink this pond water.
And it's, I'm feeling it, but not really.
, and you really, it's like tryingto convert somebody to a religion.
, you're like, no, trust me.
You're just not getting it.
You just have to keep trying.
, Jimmy Price: you'll get it eventually.
, Douglas LaRose: you'll get it eventually, man.
And then for some people it justnever clicks, ? And that's fine.
Whatever.
(23:30):
Then for other people it's oh my God,my life is never gonna be the same.
This is exactly whatI've been looking for.
I can finally have hours of peace in theday or step from my mind to slow down
and , the world to come to a balance.
. But I think it's a really good point.
It's not , when you're in highschool or you're in college and
you drink for the first time,you have some crazy experience.
(23:51):
Like young people drinking.
, it's two things that unfortunatelyit's like a hand in a glove.
Like they go right all together.
It's always gonna be a good time.
It sucks and
it's unhealthy
and usually causes a lot of problems,but it's like you don't have to try hard
to get somebody to like alcohol, right?
When people smoke weed for thefirst time, they laugh and they
started giggling it in stupid littlethings and they have fun with it.
(24:11):
, the different drugs have differentthings that appeal to people,
but kava it usually takes a fewtimes for most people to get it.
Yeah.
, and if it, if they getit at all, like true.
And that's one of those things where, I'll say it, and I hate
to say it, but kava is not for everyone.
It just, it's not, there's some peoplethat just don't, it do, they don't
(24:33):
like it and it, and there's nothingthey can do and it's just, , that's
that . , , it's, that's okay.
There's nothing wrong with that.
Everybody has their own thing,but kava , it takes effort.
, it's not like you're not gonna just cozyup to a nice mug of kava, , first time
just make sure it's nice and warm too.
But make sure you get thosevapors off the top there.
Oh yeah, that'd be a realnice experience there.
(24:53):
But yeah it's a hard sell for somepeople and for a lot of people.
It's just, you have to have theright motivation for kava and the
motivation for kava is connectivity.
And it's also introspection.
It's also being able tosee what you are doing.
That's been my big thingwith it does . It Gives space.
It provides space for talanoa, whichis co conversation and discussion.
(25:15):
And it provides space for , just takinga moment and actually thinking about
your life or thinking about somethingthat you've done in a different context,
in a, like out of the box thinking itputs you on a different thinking
phase as to what you usually are.
And it's difficult to explain,but it gives you an edge on
being able to observe yourselffrom a different perspective
critically , but without being harsh.
(25:36):
It provides that kind of a pause and thatmoment for you to take things in and not
have to judge things instantly, not haveto knee-jerk reaction to everything.
And it allows you torespond instead of react.
So you have a moment to take asecond and just, , breathe and exist.
Douglas LaRose (25:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It has that mindfulness , when youlearn about mindfulness meditation
and Buddhism and things likethat, it's, , kava , it helps aid.
And mindful thinking and concentration,and it's probably one of the reasons
why it helps you fall asleep, right?
Is certainly if you have a lotof thoughts in your head that are
bouncing
around, kava will help thosethoughts settle down and go
(26:15):
to sleep, and rest your mind.
, and that's what it did for me as astudent was I had just my brain was
moving at a million miles an hourand I had a lot of intrusive thoughts
and, , I would sit down to read anddo research for graduate school.
And kava was the only thing that wouldhelp me, , not coffee, not like black tea
or whatever, but like kava would help me
(26:37):
be able to sit down and focus andconcentrate and not have my mind
jump to, oh, the amazing Spidermanor, , banjo or like whatever of my
other hobbies that I had at the time.
Or
video games.
It was just,
okay, I have my kava, I'm gonna sitdown, I'm gonna write my thesis.
, I wrote a 250 page thesis, half of thetime I was completely just to full of
(26:59):
kava, , and just focused andrelaxed and concentrating.
. But, it's funny when I started
my blog, I remember, and I,and this just jumped into my
head thinking about disgusting
kava recipes.
I ordered a bunch of kavafrom Nakamal at home.
And I had but at that point I hadtried a bunch of instant kavas, and
that was pretty straightforward.
(27:20):
But , I had never reallysqueezed and needed kava.
. So I bought a bag of wow and I think abag of stone or, , something like that.
. And I got my package in the mail andI went to the Nakamal at home website
and they had a YouTube video where theywere like, this is how you make Kava.
And the guy in the video I can't rememberwhat his name was, but he was a funny guy.
Not the owner, but somebody whoused to work at the bar, the kava
(27:41):
bar.
The guy in the video has I thinktwo cups of kava or something
like, or three cups of root.
And he mixes three cups of root.
It's two glass.
Two glasses of water or something.
It's like some crazyproportion of kava to water.
Like way too much kava.
, my first thought when I saw that videowas like, I'm gonna be poor as fuck.
(28:02):
. . Oh God.
If I drink kava every night and Iuse this recipe like I am doomed.
. But I followed the instructions and,
And I made this kava using thatvideo as my guide, and it came
out it was like paint, it lookedlike paint, like brown paint.
Yeah.
And so I was like, okay, here we go.
Yep.
I drank one shell reallyquickly, and it was horrible.
(28:22):
It was like the most disgusting,like nausea inducing thing
I ever tasted in my life.
. And I was like, all right,I'm gonna drink another shell.
Cause I really wanna feelthis for the first time.
Cause it was my firsttime going all in on Kava.
. And I got so sick.
Oh yeah.
. I was
like, so ill, I was so unbelievably sick.
I was throwing up my, I was when I wasin graduate school, I was looking with
(28:44):
my my mother and father, they came homeand they were , they were earlier in
the day they had, so you were gonnago get in and out Burger for dinner.
And I was like, ohyeah, that sounds great.
I love In and Out Burger.
They came home and I was runninginto the bathroom and puking.
Oh.
And they saw me drinking Kapa, andthey were like, what is that stuff?
Oh,
Jimmy Price (29:01):
yOu're doing something stupid, doing drugs.
Douglas LaRose (29:03):
Yeah.
Doing drugs.
Yeah.
And I was like, I'm not gonna beable to eat that in and Out Burger.
I'm sorry, . But but then Irealized, , after I did that.
That video was way wrong, . And I thinkI might have actually emailed Nakamal
at home and been like, Hey, you guysneed to change that video cause wow.
Like that is not gonna give yourcustomers a good experience,
, Jimmy Price: just drink it and throw it back up.
bUt did you feel it though,
(29:24):
? Douglas LaRose: I felt it.
I felt it, but was so not in a goodway that was like, , that, I dunno
if this has happened to you before,it probably has, but if you drink
too much kava too fast, it can havethe opposite effect where it makes
you like really anxious and clammy.
Yeah.
And nauseous and like kindof unstable almost like even
like psychologically unstable.
It had that effect.
It was the opposite of what I wanted.
(29:45):
I was gonna say, should we talka little bit about the the dark
years, just like touch on that?
Jimmy Price (29:50):
Sure.
Let's see . Yeah.
2014 is about when all thatsort of stuff went way down.
When everyone got reallytwisted up and yeah.
2014 there was a falling out.
There was a whole bunch of drama and thekava industry was much smaller back then.
There were maybe, How many,like seven or eight vendors?
(30:10):
There were not very manyvendors at that point.
That sounds about right.
Yeah.
They were still very competitive.
We had vendors that wouldthreaten each other.
We had vendors that were fighting.
, there were people that were makingwebsites about each other., it was
a wild time in the kava industry.
, there were some people that I stilldon't know who sent the glitter bomb.
I still swear I don't knowwho's in the glitter bomb.
There was a glitter bomb.
(30:31):
You know how they had those MailYour Enemies a big like envelope
full of glitter when they openit just, , sprays everywhere.
Uhhuh . And apparently one ofthe vendors received one of these
mails with the glitter bomb in it.
And it's I don't even,I didn't know that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I have a feeling it'sprobably another vendor,
But it was a chaotic time,but , it was a formative time.
We had I believe it was,obviously it was necessary.
(30:53):
It wouldn't have happened, but , we hadto figure out, Where we were at, I guess
what we were, what we needed to do.
And that was our, and I'll honestly sayit was much less maturity in that point.
Very glad to be we're at nowbecause , it was everywhere.
,, I will absolutely own 100% , of myabsenteeism and , my attitude during
the time and . But , it took a whileof just getting to know people.
(31:15):
Personally on, on a very personal levelbefore it all clicked before we realized,
oh, we're, wait, we're all on the sameteam , we shouldn't be fighting each other
. , there was some outside influences therethat did make their way into our circle.
And I would say that by andlarge those negative influences
are today no longer there.
Or if they are there, they haveno voice like they had before.
(31:37):
And we've taken our spots as in, notambassadors of kava but just Hey, if you
wanna know about kava come along with us.
This, we're gonna go on thisjourney with kava, , , if you
want to see it online, come along.
Douglas LaRose (31:47):
Yeah, , from my perspective so I was living in Ethiopia.
I lived in Ethiopia from 2012 to 2014.
And I came back a couple times while I wasliving in Ethiopia and I became friends
with the owner of Paradise Kava in Hawaii.
It's a vendor that no longer exists, butI remember having some phone calls with
him while I was back in the States, andhe would talk about how there were all
(32:12):
these people that were really concernedabout two day kava and how Two Day
Kava was going to get Kava banned andthat it was causing liver problems.
, and so I was like, oh, shit.
That's pretty scary.
And then the acet tests becamelike really in vogue for a minute.
Everybody was doing acet tests.
To, to test their kava.
Yes.
Make sure it wasn't, yeah.
Like you had people that sharepictures of ace tests like in
(32:33):
their bathroom window and stuff.
Uhhuh, . It was just wild.
And I just remember thinking that , like, either kava is good for you or kava is bad
for you, but whatever we're doing here isjust making , it there's a lot of smoke.
We're creating a lot of smoke.
And if people are, like, if peoplewithin the kava community are so
paranoid that they're gonna get sickfrom they're contaminated kava that
(32:57):
might have Issa or two today in it,that if even we are panicking and like
worried about kava, then it's probablynot gonna make it, it's probably
not gonna have a long time survival.
probability.
So I went on the complete extreme of let'sjust let kava growers grow what they want
and let's let vendors sell what they want.
And definitely looking back, Iwould not hold that position now
(33:20):
if I could advise my younger self.
But at the same time I also think thatif , at the end of the day, like the
kava vendors that provide quality,noble kava are, can you be the ones that
succeed?
Yes.
So like those, the ones
who had the, like the quote
unquote spiked kava that had two mixedinto it, adult traded trade, it, they
would have, they wouldn't have succeeded.
(33:41):
They would've eventuallystopped doing that because
they would've been outcompeted.
But the problem was that I thought thatpeople were putting kava in danger by
creating all of this noise around it.
And that eventually the.
Authorities would catch you windof this and say that, oh, so even
the people that drink this, no.
That it can cause liver damage.
I thought that was like a really dangerouskind of narrative to contribute to.
(34:04):
And I also thought therewas no evidence for it.
I, all the research that I did,there isn't basically you said
that no, even that two day stuffis not gonna cause liver damage.
So I didn't want that story out thereand I took this very extreme position and
I just eventually that led to the firejust growing in scope and burning more,
, Jimmy Price: burning long.
So we, yeah, it's been a long road.
(34:25):
We've been on this for very long time.
, we've gone through our differentsituations and now we finally
coalesced together around the ideathat, no one else out there is
a cheerleading, kava like this.
So if they're not, then we're gonna do it.
So it's the spot was there andit's just always been there , and
we've, we have people that like toparticipate and we just have people
(34:46):
that like to lurk, . but, . Yeah.
Yeah.
I think one really important thing, , looking back on
that and then looking at where weare now now, , the way that I see
Kava, , for the past three, fouryears it's really in a great place.
Vendors sell properly labeled safe.
Uncontaminated.
And by uncontaminated
(35:07):
, , no mold, no fungus, no Right bacteria they sell quality kava.
That is what it says it is.
. And there are no safety boards.
There are no like testingagencies that make sure that
the kava is what it says it is.
But the consumers, the cabbagedrinkers have been able to, I think,
exert enough demand for vendors tosell clean, safe, strong kava.
(35:32):
, and I think that we've done that asa community and I think that it's a
great example of of customers andvendors in a back and forth creating
a standard for what's of good quality.
Jimmy Price (35:42):
Agreed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's just a natural thing.
And I think it's the fact that.
. It was so chaotic asthat we went through it.
We were the ones that kind ofwitnessed it happening as it matured.
, there weren't any, there werelike two kava bars when this
started, or one, I think years.
It was just one.
So it in there's over 300.
So , it's a big machine now.
It's gone from something very small , and,, boutique and esoteric and, , what is that?
(36:07):
And it's gone from that to justsomething that people might actually
start knowing on a regular basis.
I've we're gonna get ait here in Nashville.
It does.
It is small.
It's still small.
Douglas LaRose (36:18):
I was just gonna say, I think that both you , and
I between the two of us, we know.
, everyone.
. Yeah.
So it's still like pretty small cuzlike between the two of us, we, I think
that we know every vendor personally.
So it's still not the soda business
. Jimmy Price: That's true.
And , I think that's whatmakes it really special too.
Yeah.
, I'm not somebody and I've justkinda walked in here and been
like, Hey, can I be a part of this?
(36:39):
, I've gone into Zoom meetingsfrom Australia about kava
and their legislation and juste anyone can be part of this.
It's not something thathas restrictions on it.
It's purely a global thing andyou can just walk up to it.
And that's, I think that's still a reallyinteresting aspect the kava industry
still is that it's still accessible.
And Absolutely.
I think it still goes backto kava takes dedication and
(37:01):
it takes people that love it.
, and that's the way that Kavahas been since the beginning.
It's required people that loved it.
It wouldn't be around it ifthe appreciation and love for
kava weren't there, it wouldn'thave so many variations.
There wouldn't be so many differentcultivars it wouldn't be present , and
we know that it was carried bycanoe from one country to another.
So , it demands certain peopleto really look after it.
(37:24):
, when I was in Hawaii, one of thethings that was said quite often
was that, , I didn't choose kava.
It shows me and truly, in termsof the things that we do, yeah.
Kava shows us, man , wedidn't have a choice in that.
It was gonna, , we were gonna do that.
We were gonna, I agree.
Go through this , and be what we are forkava , and , it's not hard for me to put
up a really big, nice picture of kava.
(37:45):
It's not difficult.
There things you have to , overlookcertain aspects or say only if you
take it this certain amount of timesor don't use it for two weeks straight.
Or , it doesn't have those constraintsand it's just it's a wild different thing.
And of course like it goes backto the love that it demands
and it requires, To grow.
, when you meet the people that grow kavait's, , they, you look at 'em and you're
(38:06):
like, yeah, I can tell you grow kava bythe way you look it just, they exude
kava it is just something about it.
It's not something you choose.
If it really wants you,you don't have a choice.
Cause Kavas coming from Korea, so
, Douglas LaRose: you don't have a chance.
Hey, kava can come from me all at once.
That's right.
Welcome.
I think, , before we close this out,one of the people that I really wanted
to shine a light on is is Mike Munsell
Because Mike he was, , com withKaVo was one of the early vendors.
(38:29):
And, , there's a lot of kavavendors out there and a lot of
them, , are from the Pacific Islands.
A lot of them have rootsin the Pacific Islands.
Jimmy Price (38:37):
Yeah.
Literally.
Yeah.
Figuratively,
. Douglas LaRose: But Mike, , Mike was one of these people that had a lot of anxiety
in his life, , I think growing up andas an adult, and Kava helped him a lot.
But he, , he didn't just become a kavavendor who wanted to have a business.
He was really deeply caring of thecommunities in Fiji and Vanuatu.
(38:58):
Yep.
Would go, and travel extensively in thosecountries make deals and relationships
with kava farming families work oncommunity projects in those countries.
And I just really wanna underscore , howto this day, , how much inspiration
I get from, , the life of Mike.
Who just passed awaya couple of years ago.
It's really rare that you findpeople like that in your life.
(39:19):
And he was really just one of a kind.
And he did so much for the Kava community.
E even when I wasbuttoning heads with Mike
, when during this the two day Wars , the two day wars.
That's it.
At the end of the day.
I remember one
time I had posted something really stupidon my blog about about two day and how
like big alcohol was coming after Kava.
I don't know if you remember that.
And Mike called me on my phone.
(39:41):
I was like, cooking dinner and I think Iwas just, , drinking wine or something.
I was just drinking alcohol.
And Mike called me on myphone and just cold called me.
And I, and it was Mike.
So I picked up the phone.
I don't like to pick up the phone whenpeople just randomly call me, but I saw
that it was Mike, so I answered the phone.
Billings, Montana, and and hewas like, Hey man, how's it going?
I was like, oh, pretty good.
And he is yeah, I wanted totalk about that blog post.
(40:02):
, after doing kind of niceties and he'syeah, I wanted to talk about that blog
post cuz I know it's not coming froma healthy place, ? And I know that
you're struggling , and that's fine,, but it's not coming from a, it doesn't
seem like it's coming from a happyplace and it's not gonna help anybody.
And I was like, you know what, man?
You're totally right.
? And he was like, checking in onme, he was like really concerned
about my health and my wellbeing.
(40:22):
And he was like, yeah, you seemlike you're angry right now and you
wanna you want me to send you somekava and , drink some shells of kava
and get back on track and, , I justthought that was so like emblematic and
definitive of Mike's character
to be so caring about another person
that he had never even met.
But.
Who he knew and he was worried about, and he was rightly worried about
(40:42):
, just, I just wanna
send those thoughts out thosefeelings out to Mike and his family.
Yeah.
Cause he's been such
a huge keystone of this
community in the past 20 years.
Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah.
Mike was a great guy.
He was someone with manyyears behind his eyes.
I truly would be like, Mike,just text me wherever you go.
Just send me pictures where you go.
(41:02):
I wanna live through you.
He truly lived the lifethat I wish I could live.
He would just fly out to Van Watu andjust, , look over like seedlings of Kava
, he would just be able to just go and dothat kind of stuff , and, , bring water
filters with him , and seller power thingsand all that stuff with him as well.
So not only did he cometo , remove a resource, but
also give a resource as well.
So he did try to giveback as much as he took.
(41:25):
And it actually angered quite alot of people in the process too.
He was a very successful business personand he went directly to farmers and did
quite a bit of cutting out middlemen.
And it did not go over verywell when that went down.
But , he always had a veryunique way of doing it.
And he was just like,what, let me add it.
, I'll go over there myselfand take care of it.
Instead of just, , call somebody,he's I'll go, I'll do it myself.
(41:47):
, him , and the owner of of Kavasociety got together, and created
a fresh green bottled beverage.
And the lenghts they went to goand create this beverage were.
Extraordinary.
They were lugging I think they said50 or 60 kilos of fresh kava roots
on the carryon on the airplane.
And dragging these things throughthe airports to get these to
(42:09):
the places where they were gonnatest out , their equipment.
And , they were all over thecountry of New Zealand working to
get these things taken care of andmade bottled up and everything.
It truly was a herculean effort.
For a while there I was worried.
But there are a lot of people that arestepping up and taking the place and
one of Mike's friends and one of ourfriends Morgan, who used to actually
(42:31):
Morgan had no interaction with the kavaindustry whatsoever when we knew him.
He was a member of Kavaforums and he was just a blog.
He did a blog called the KavaFlow, and he actually ended up
buying Kaman Kabb after Mike Pass.
So we've watched the industry go fromvery little to, to what it is today.
And we've been there forit and watched it grow up.
So it's been quite, quite a good thing.
(42:52):
But yeah, Mike truly wasan inspiration for me.
I saw his kava patch.
I was able to walk around inhis cova patch in Hawaii and
see the plants that he planted.
It was a very special experienceto be able to walk through
where Mike stood in Hawaii.
His shoes were large, but thereare quite a number of people
that are looking to fill them.
And they do a good job of it.
(43:14):
And he will never be replaced.
Mike was one of a kind but his legacywill be sought to be equaled from now on.
But Commonwealth Kava will alwayshave an interesting story attached
to it but yeah, I think that Mike,
Douglas LaRose (43:25):
Yeah, I was just gonna say for me, I think Mike In the
past, , five to 10 years, he's beenthe most, , influential person in Kava.
And, , particularly in the United Stateskava scene, the overseas kava scene, I
think that he really quietly led , a verylike, peaceful movement of kava drinkers.
Yep.
To get kava to a better placein a more respected place.
Jimmy Price (43:47):
He told me himself, , the reason he's doing it all is cuz
he wanted to drink good kava . Andthat's, yeah, that's great.
That's truly the way that some of thebest kava companies have started is just
people just wanna get a good line on somekava that they like personally and it
ends up turning into, Hey, let's sell it
Douglas LaRose (44:02):
Yeah, that makes me think of the kava roots.
That's another very small vendorthat is, , a very small company.
But I know that the owner of the Kavaroots and , he source, like what he
considers the best kava and sells it.
It's very expensive, but it's very good.
. And yeah, it's
Jimmy Price (44:17):
The same deal.
Douglas LaRose (44:18):
It's not a big business.
It's not like his mainfocus, just the side project,
, Jimmy Price: yep.
That's a lot for this episode, . Yeah.
But hopefully anybody listening mighthave gotten a little bit better of
understanding of where we come from asindividuals in this whole puzzle of kava.
We don't make any money doing what we do.
We're not paid to havethe opinions that we have.
(44:39):
We don't get kickbacks.
, Doug might get some free kata reviewand that's if now that's totally fine.
And then Doug's a kava reviewer,and that's what we expect actually.
But in terms of being paid, we are paidin the stories that we hear, we are
paid in the people that talk about how,hey, I don't wanna drink alcohol anymore.
That's that sort of thing is the payment.
(45:01):
That we get.
And that is truly some ofthe most lasting payment.
I can think back about , the interactionsthat I've had with individuals that have
been like, eye-opening and just riveting.
And I, , I can remember those specificmoments in my life where people have
been like, Hey, this actually works.
This is awesome.
, I really appreciate you guys bringingthis to the attention of everyone.
And , that is our payment.
(45:21):
It truly is.
It's weird.
Some people don't even wanna believe that.
It's that strange that I guess thatwe would be that willing to donate so
much of our time and our effort andart , just our everything to, to kava.
Know that it comes from the heart.
We're here because we love kava.
We want to help steward it inthe most respectful way possible
with science at the forefrontand logic and no misinformation.
(45:45):
And we will, , continuefrom that spot from here on.
And that, I agreed at thebeginning when you said, yeah, I
guess you can make another forum.
And I didn't wanna do itwithout your permission.
I bought kava forums like , it wasjust a purchased web name cuz I was
like, I was not going to do anythinguntil I got the kava urs okay.
About it.
. This needs to be part of everything. We've gone a long time together and , it
(46:07):
is good to be where we are right now.
Yeah.
And be on the same page with stuff.
And I can say, Hey, Doug,check out this paper.
, this is awesome.
And you can be like this is great.
, we read the same paper and everything, andit's just, , it's fun and it's enriching.
It makes my life better.
And that's really why I do it.
It's my hobby.
? I don't fly drones.
I don't play video games.
I, , , I read kava papers.
I look up Kave information online.
Like I want to know more.
And I think you, you share that samesort of fire for kava and that, I think
(46:31):
most people listening to this, if they'vegotten this far, you probably do too.
But it truly, takes that dedicationand love for kava to appreciate it.
When you do, it's somethingthat you just can't look over
And, , just to pull back the curtain a little bit on my blog,
the video reviews that I do, I believeit or not, like when I do one of those
videos, I just do it all in one take.
I just sit down.
, you probably can believe it cuz someof 'em are so sloppy . But I just
(46:53):
sit down and I turn on the camera andI'm like, Hey everybody, this is C
sewer, , I'm at you from Baltimore.
I got this new cova, I'm gonna try it out.
Yeah.
It tastes great.
Oh, the effects really mellow.
, it that's the extent of it.
I do no research.
I just turn on the video and I startrecording and , I should probably
actually do more videos than I do.
But I just get lazy and I gettired at the end of the workday
(47:14):
and I just wanna drink my kava and
. Jimmy Price: Exactly.
But anyways,
It's such a simple thing that blog, it's been a hobby
for 15, 16 years or whatever and it'sreally, it's that straightforward.
I get kava, I either buy it or peoplesend it to me and then I review it.
That's it.
Yep.
Haven't made any money and probablywill never make money doing it.
Jimmy Price (47:33):
So Yeah,
and that's one of the things I thinkthat makes us a bit different is that we
don't actually take any money from anyvendors to forward any sort of agenda
you can see that there'sads on kava forms.
I, somebody was like you sell the ads.
I'm like, actually we don't, , youcan't purchase those ads.
Those are there because those are , thecompanies that , we've personally found
that are reputable and that will takecare of problems if they arise and have
(47:57):
good quality kaas and all that good stuff.
It's not even somethingthat you could pay for.
And I've had people try to pay for it.
I've had many people try to purchasekava forms, but , it's not a commodity.
kava forums is our history.
It's our past.
It actually, it contains in, thismay not be something that many
people know, but kava forums actuallydoes contain the Yuku forums.
Within it.
If you go to legacysection, at the bottom.
(48:18):
You can find all of our old conversationstalking about what Kava does.
, I think I made kava with snow one time,cuz everybody's oh, it's snowing . Has
anyone made kava with snow before?
I don't know.
Let's be the first.
You can go back and see likeall of our, actually went fine.
Like I took some snow and made sure therewasn't yellow and made kava with it.
But it did work out it's a tome ofinformation of just our past and our
(48:41):
history and the places that we'vegone , in this whole, , weird puzzle and
weird, , winding path of kava , that justhas so many different turns and twists.
But yeah, . I think that's probably good.
Nice.
On that note,
Douglas LaRose (48:54):
The hula and the next episode will come back with another paper.
, something fun, somethinganthropological, historical.
Jimmy Price (49:00):
This is the Kava Lounge.
Thank you for
Douglas LaRose (49:02):
thank you for taking a seat and having a
Jimmy Price (49:04):
shell.
Right on.
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