January 28, 2024 • 49 mins
Citation: Troost, J. Maarten. 2006. Getting Stoned with Savages: A Trip Through the Islands of Fiji and Vanuatu. Broadway Books.
The Kava Lounge Podcast discusses J. Maarten Troost which provides an in-depth discussion about Kava, its effects, and cultural significance. The hosts share personal experiences with Kava, reflecting on its sedative qualities and their journey from initial curiosity to deep appreciation. They explore J. Maarten Troost's book, focusing particularly on a chapter where Troost describes his firsthand experience with Kava in Vanuatu. The discussion covers different traditions and practices of Kava consumption across various Pacific islands, emphasizing the diversity in its usage and cultural importance. They also touch on topics like the difference between noble and non-noble Kava, the evolution of Kava culture, and the distinctions between Kava as a drink and as a dietary supplement. The hosts engage in a detailed conversation, blending personal anecdotes with insights into the broader cultural and historical context of Kava.
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Episode Transcript
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Douglas LaRose (00:07):
Pour in the tanoa and sit down and enjoy another
session of the Kava Lounge
Alright.
Welcome back to the Kava Lounge everyone.
I've been really excited aboutthis episode for a long time J.
Maarten Troost was to me what I think the
Kavasseur blog was toa lot of other people.
(00:29):
I had been drinking Kava on and off.
For about six or seven years before I readthe book that we're gonna discuss here.
And had only had the Yogi Teaand the Kava King, instant Kava.
when I read this book and got to thechapter where he talked about Kava,
I immediately my antenna went up Iwas thinking about trips to Vanuatu.
(00:52):
I was planning trips to the South Pacificbecause I needed to try this stuff out.
And I would, because I hadlove, I already loved Kava.
But when I read his description ofKava, I was like, this sounds like
exactly what I need, Alcohol's no good.
I've never been a big fan of marijuana, and this guy went to Vanuatu and
he tried the real thing had thisamazing relationship with Kava.
(01:15):
this book turned me into the Kavasseurit made me, excited about Kava.
And after reading this chapter, Iimmediately figured out that you could
buy Dried Ground Kava Online, and that'sthe like, basically where my blog started.
So that's some background for this.
Before we jump into the details,
Jimmy Price (01:34):
That's some origin story stuff, man.
That's awesome.
Douglas LaRose (01:37):
absolutely.
Jimmy Price (01:38):
I love it.
J.
Maarten Troost is the author of this book.
all of my research, on kava, allthe papers, research documents and
graphs I've never read this book.
until now 20 years drinking Kava.
But, I found it very interesting inhow he just organically tries Kava.
He didn't even hear ofit until he got there.
(02:00):
And he's talking to one of the peoplethere and he is you tried Kava.
And so he is the sunset wouldlook a lot better with some Kava.
he really does capture a very strongKava experience . And that's the thing I
think that we should highlight in this.
Podcast is that there are differenttraditions for consuming Kava.
there's different uses forconsuming Kava across these
(02:23):
different islands that produce it,that actually have cultivated it.
here we can see that, this isn'tsomething they savor even here they
talk about, it's just something weendure, which is part of the process
in terms of the taste and everything.
But he gets the organic experiences ofgoing straight in with no knowledge and
(02:44):
getting completely flatlined by kava.
with the description he gives,it makes me wonder how noble that
kava he was drinking really was.
Douglas LaRose (02:54):
Five shells.
Jimmy Price (02:55):
Five shells is enough to make you not want Kava for two days.
I have to wonder, what cultivarwas that, that they were making?
But you know what, at this time,probably no one cared about that.
But it's interesting to see the way thathe goes about this, We come at it from a
scientific angle, from a social angle.
He talks about how, what he doesn'tunderstand how someone could ever
(03:17):
want to avoid the Netherlandsas because of the lack of
narcotics.
he is a typical American there.
he doesn't understand these things.
And then by the end of the chapterhe completely understands, and
this is chapter four of the book.
Douglas LaRose (03:31):
so if you read the whole book his wife works in
the same line of work that I do.
She's a international developmentspecialist, and he moves to Vanuatu and
he's a writer and he is like trying tofind his voice in the writing world.
And I think this is his firstbook So he gets to Vanuatu.
(03:52):
this guy J.
Maarten Troost, he wasborn in the Netherlands.
I think he's about 55 years old right now.
But he was born in the Netherlands.
And He meets this guy Dirk, who is fromHolland, and they're like shooting the
and like talking about how much they Ms.
Holland and they miss the coffeeshops and they miss coffee shops being
(04:12):
the places you go to buy marijuana.
And then Dirk tellshim, and this is how J.
Maarten Troost hears about Kava.
He's I would never wannago back to Holland.
And then J.
Maarten Troost there is what?
You would never wanna go back toHolland, like your home country, which.
I think everybody thinks that,the Netherlands is probably
a pretty nice place to live.
But the guy responds to him never.
(04:33):
There is no Kava in Holland
There is no Kava in the USso I won't go there either.
when I reread this preparing for thispodcast, the world has changed so
much since I read this book the firsttime because at the time that this
book was written, it was probablyimpossible to get Kava in the us.
And I think probably still it'simpossible to get in the Netherlands.
(04:55):
but it is just amazing that,kava was such an unknown thing.
And then J.
Maarten Troost goes into this deepbeautiful narrative about how central
Kava is to the life of Neva Natupeople and how the Kava bars in Port
Villa are the center of society.
And if you go, if you wanna havea meeting with a Prime Minister or
(05:15):
the minister of Agriculture, Hey,let's go to the Knock 'em all in the
evening time and have a conversation.
it is such a beautifully written chapter.
I think that he gets a little bit carriedaway describing how the Kava affects him.
I've seen some YouTube videos of peoplehaving strong reactions to Kava, but
I've never, had a Kava experiencethat took me this far And then later
on in the podcast, I'll read somesections that I highlighted it's an
(05:38):
amazing chapter of an amazing book.
this guy disappeared.
I emailed him when I was in graduateschool asking him what kind of Kava
he drank and who he ordered it fromand he responded that, oh oh, I'm
in India right now, and I'm like,having a fight with my publisher.
And then there were a couple more booksafter that had nothing to do with India.
(05:59):
But he disappeared from the writing scene.
been like 10 years, published a book.
Jimmy Price (06:03):
if you go to his Wikipedia article, the Getting Stones with Savages
is from 2006 and it's a second book.
thE first one is TheSex Lives of Cannibals.
Douglas LaRose (06:13):
I've read that one too.
Yeah.
Jimmy Price (06:14):
and it says, I was told there'd be sex bots travels through
the future anticipated publication.
Summer 2017, not releasedas of April, 2022.
Douglas LaRose (06:24):
I remember when that book was supposed to come out and I was
anticipating it then it never came out.
his last book was called The Head Huntersat my Doorstep, it was about his battle
with alcoholism and his newfound sobriety.
But it wasn't, as good as his other ones.
So
maybe he just, Something else.
Jimmy Price (06:41):
there is a part in this chapter where he talks about how.
he Drinks Kava, he gets kinda loopyand he suddenly realizes that he's
being like completely faux pa likehe's being just, he's like laughing
and joking during a Kava ceremonywhere they're crowning a new princess
And I think at that point, he didn't knowanything about kava and he thought it
(07:03):
was pretty much equal to a couple beers.
And that was that.
So he he starts out with justnothing in terms of understanding.
And even he talks about, I thinksome of the things he, when he
compares Kava to other things, heeven says this was more like heroin.
It's consumption.
That is something thatyou had to be endured.
It's just God, alright.
(07:24):
I guess that's one way you could put it.
I'm not sure I could parallel anythingabout my Kava consumption too.
Heroin consumption, having done both?
No, but whatever.
Hey I'm not here to pick at it 'causeit's really, this was obviously
your first look into what theCabo scene might be in the world.
Where it exists, where it, where that'sa thing, we didn't have it in 2006.
(07:46):
I had just discovered Kava in 2006.
Like I had just figured outwhat Kava was in 2006 and right.
But, I mean that there, there was noinformation on the internet at that time.
There was a blue light post and therewas some iwi posts and there was some
Peace Corps posts, and that was it.
And then after a couple yearshere, here comes the Kavasseur.
(08:08):
We, I didn't know anyone elseeven knew about this stuff.
I thought, this was a secret that, onlya few people had it was just a, special
plant that no one knew anything about.
And that's how we came to Kava.
It was in this sort of fashion.
It wasn't, Fijian style or Tongan style.
It was this, in your face Drink this Kava,this is Kava is this is what it does.
(08:32):
You drink it like this and youhave these sort of effects.
It relaxes you and it makes you calm,calms you down makes you more chatty.
And there are cultures out therewhere it's not what you aim
for and it's just part of theceremonial consumption of Kava.
You drink your shell, you clap yourhands, you do this, you don't do that.
Like it there the rules are different.
(08:54):
And they were they were givento us differently when Kava
first arrived on the scene.
We didn't.
There was no ceremonial, like passed downof information when we first started.
So this being your first exposure to thekava scene makes sense because that's
where we were looking for Kava, wewere tired of all those other things.
We didn't want those other drugs.
(09:15):
We were, we tired of the optionsthat were out there and we were
looking for something different.
you put the Kavasseur blogout there and The Yuku forum.
And that was the onlysource of information.
And it's funny, you can see thisreflected in how we went after
kava, the research side of it.
The, what does it feel like, thedifferent cultivars, how did they
(09:37):
affect us differently, thatsort of hitting us and us
diving down that direction.
But I'll let you talkfor a little bit, Doug.
Sorry I stole it from you.
Douglas LaRose (09:45):
No.
This is a good conversation here.
One thing and I was thinkingabout this when I was reading
This chapter, I think this is theonly chapter of a book we've read.
That's, like a part of a longkind of unfolding narrative.
But one thing that stood out in J.
Maarten Troost very kinda cleverlyforeshadows something that I don't wanna
(10:06):
say haunts us, but haunts us to this day.
And you referred earlier to this theKava ceremony for the visiting Fijian
Princess, and he's in Tonga for that.
This is J.
Maarten Troost's firstencounter with Kava.
So he is at this, the Kava ceremonyfor this visiting Fijian princess.
He has what he considers to belike, eh, like a meh with Kava.
(10:30):
And they, they drink it and he feelslike a little bit relaxed, but he talks
more about the the Novocaine effect thatKava has on your lips and your mouth
Mumbles to the princess.
And then, him and his friendmake big fools of themselves.
But what stood out to me in that story.
More than anything else was the followinghe says she was being honored by the
(10:53):
Fijians living in Tonga, and unaware thatwhen that unaware then a Kava ceremony
was among Fijians and the aristocracy.
He's talking about him and hisfriend, not the Fijian princess.
So they were unaware what a big deal aKava ceremony was Fijians and Tongans.
And so they're in this Kava circleand it's a very formal, ritualistic
(11:14):
type of event probably similar towhat you experienced in Hawaii.
he turned to the princess andhe said, princess, how much Ava?
It's too much Ava.
his Nepalese friend, he turned to Mar J.
Maarten Troost and he says, you walkone E instead of you talk funny.
and then they start like rolling overwith laughter, and I think afterwards
(11:35):
they find out that was incrediblyinappropriate Kava in Fiji and Tonga
it is like this very ritualistic thingand you're supposed to respect it and
honor these traditions and yes, ifyou're ever in a traditional setting,
you should be honoring their traditions
and ask how you can be asrespectful as possible.
But to contrast that laterin the chapter, he contrasts
(11:59):
Vanuatu Kava drinking culture.
this is a big debate right nowin the Kava community about how
to respect Kava and what culturalappropriation is and what it isn't.
he shows that even at that time in2005, you could look at Vanuatu Kava
Drinking Culture and Fijian Kava DrinkingCulture and compare them Tongans and
(12:20):
Fijians were still very traditional.
they drank Kava in thismore of a formal setting.
Whereas in Vanuatu you hadthe nakamals where it's a bar.
People, you go to the bar they spoonout your shell of Kava, you pay
them and then you hang out with yourfriends or you go by yourself and
you drink Kava under a tree It wasinteresting to see that, comparison of
(12:41):
the two ceremonies because it affectedhis experience of Kava both times.
I think it also helps.
I.
Give a good illustration ofhow Kava is not one thing.
Kava is many different things acrosscountries and times and cultures.
So I just wanted to point that out 'causeI thought it was interesting given the
(13:01):
kind of current debates been having.
Jimmy Price (13:04):
2006 was just a little while ago, man.
That's, or 2005.
That was almost 20 years ago.
We're getting old.
But, I thought one of the funniestthings in here was how he described Kava.
He said that he watched someone make it.
he said, someone was describing whatthey were doing and he said, Kava
is like the sausage of the Pacific.
douglas--bud-bro-_1_01-27-2024_193650 (13:25):
I
Jimmy Price (13:25):
if you saw some of these knock 'em alls, and he was
in the bush with a meat grinder.
Mix it up with your hands and strain itthrough a cloth, and dump it into a bucket
So he was probably seeing the real waythat that Kava was consumed on the island.
I'm sure that it would seem like somethingyou wouldn't wanna know how it's made.
But now I'm sure that'squite a bit different.
(13:47):
they have a tourist appeal for that.
a lot of people that drink kavaknow where the good kava is.
if you don't have good kava,you won't get customers.
I thought that was hilarious.
He was like, what do you do?
You take your bowl, find something nice tolook at, the sunset, the stars, the trees,
Then with that image in mind, you takethe kava and you drink it all at once.
then you listen to the kavaand try not to throw up.
(14:11):
And I was just like, when I readthat to my wife and she laughed.
'cause she has always had issues with it.
But after a while, even the bestof us have issues with kava every
now and then where we drink toomuch and we haven't eaten anything
that day and it doesn't agree us.
maybe once a year it turns on you.
But, I can understand that drinkingreally strong Kava, if you were
(14:31):
drinking it excessively for the firsttime, you might wanna, go a slow and
this whole chapter is a reminder to.
When drinking Kava, go slow.
Drink your shell.
Listen to that.
If it gets too loud, stop.
he does go into, what it means to beconnected to the Kava Bar and what it
means to the locals to be connected tothe , the nakamal, he even says to his
(14:55):
friend, if you have an issue, you go toRonnie's, knock, all you know, got robbed.
One of his friends was robbed.
He said, do you have any connectionsto the Kava drinking culture here?
And they're like, no.
He's go to Ronnie's, talked tothe chief and got his stuff back.
it was a pillar of the Vanuatucommunity in 2006 when this book was
written, and it still is in 2024.
(15:17):
their total GDPs is quite entangled withtheir export of Kava it's big and I'm
glad that he was able to influence youinto this that gave us the incentive to.
Do our research Obviously thisstuff is legitimate 'cause this
dude is writing a blog about it,and there's, people that drink it.
(15:37):
So it was a new thing to us in America.
And I'm glad it was through this way,even though I think about it when I
view it from the lens of the culturalSouth Pacific Fiji where what we
are doing is almost sacrilegious.
'cause we're like breaking downand studying something that
they've been consuming for thepast, countless generations.
it would be like if someonewas deeply studying coffee.
(15:58):
it came across interestingly to America
I'm glad it did because we wouldn'thave gotten so deeply interested in it.
I think it gravitatedtowards the right people.
It's different.
It has the people that get involved withKava have interesting, li always have
interesting backgrounds in lives and thisco this guy, being there consequentially
(16:21):
not intent, not because he moved thereintentionally to, go live with the locals.
He was there, with his wife.
it's interesting to see his point of itand going through the whole, getting to
understand the culture and it truly wasthrough Kava that he got to understand.
Vanuatu and the people of Vanuatuand it is that connector and
(16:43):
cultural carrier of informationand connections between people.
Even though he was just able to understandthe language of Islam, he knew he was
becoming part of the community throughhis interactions with this drink.
And that's awesome, but I'll let you talk.
Douglas LaRose (17:00):
Yeah by the end of the chapter, a lot of dialogue
back and forth that's in B Islamand it's interesting to read that.
so when I read this book, I immediatelywent online 'cause I drank the yogi tea.
I drank the Kava King, but I waslike, I gotta try the real thing.
I had this like urge to try the real thing
and I was like, looking atflights to the South Pacific.
(17:20):
I was thinking about changing mygraduate research to focus on Kava.
You have to be obsessed withsomething to start a blog, right?
So I ordered, a bunch of Kavafrom Knock 'em All at Home.
I ordered.
I ordered Black Sand.
There was like a Fijian Kava thatthey sold at the time, but I remember
getting my first bag of Kava inthe mail and I was so excited.
(17:44):
And my my, I was living at, withmy parents at the time 'cause I was
going to San Diego State Universityand my mom they hadn't retired yet.
So I had the house tomyself for the afternoon.
And I got this bag of Kava in the mail.
And when you first have your first bagof Kava, you're like, how do I get.
That to turn into a drink.
(18:06):
so I went to YouTube and I watched thisvideo on how to make Kava And I was like,
I'm gonna drink the Wow Kava, 'cause thisstuff is supposed to be the real deal.
and I had this strainer that Iordered from N Kamal at home.
I had the soy lessin,
Jimmy Price (18:19):
do.
I had it myself.
Douglas LaRose (18:21):
And I watched this video and they were like, you take
one cup of Kava to one cup of water.
Jimmy Price (18:28):
Yeah.
Douglas LaRose (18:29):
And I followed the instructions on the video
and my first thought was really?
Like I just paid $40 for this bag of Kava.
So anyways I made this bowl of Kavathat looked like a can of paint.
And it was the thickest,nastiest, most peppery.
Sludge I've ever had that I calledKava and I threw back one shell
(18:54):
and I was like, oh God, that's,oh, that's just as bad as J.
Maarten Troost re described it.
and I didn't really feel too much,gave it another 10 or 15 minutes and
then I went and I mixed up the bowl'cause it had started to like separate
and I threw back a second shell andthen I became unbelievably sick.
I Felt so sick.
Like all those Kava Lactone, I think ithas something to do with the numbing of
(19:17):
your stomach from the research I've done.
But I ran to the bathroom and I.
Definitely threw up multiple times.
And then my mother came home from workwe had planned to go to, In-N-Out Burger
for Dinner, which is, the greatest placeto get a burger in the United States.
Debatable.
But it's my opinion.
And I was like, mom I really, you reallycan't go get a cheeseburger right now.
(19:40):
I feel so sick.
And she's like, why do you feel so sick?
And I was like I drank this Kava stuff.
she immediately thoughtit was some horrible drug.
And I, was in my late twenties Ibought it on the internet, it was a
lot like this book where, I thoughtthat, okay, this stuff is gonna always
taste really bad and later I found outthat okay, you don't have to use that
much Kava to make a Tanoa of Kava.
(20:02):
You can use like one cup ofKava for an entire, session.
Jimmy Price (20:06):
Hey.
At least you.
At least you.
strained your.
Wow.
I didn't, I
Douglas LaRose (20:10):
right,
Jimmy Price (20:10):
I was just putting the tablespoons into a glass and
just stirring it up and drinking.
this tastes better than the other ones.
Douglas LaRose (20:17):
Yeah.
It was a remarkable experience.
if you go to the kasewer.blogspot.com, you should
find some of those, early reviews.
they were all written, like I,I sat down and I wrote them.
Because, to upload a video to YouTubeback then was like a whole ordeal,
Jimmy Price (20:30):
it's still up as of this video's release in January of 2024
Douglas LaRose (20:35):
Nice.
Yeah.
And I miss the written review part of it.
that was always something we would alwayslike, talk about, it would go to the
forums and we'd talk about your reviewsand he'd be like, oh, we gotta try that.
Or, he didn't like that one.
I bet I'm gonna try it anyways.
We were always, going after yourreviews Trying the stuff out ourselves.
it was a fun time in the Kavaworld because it was what we had
(20:57):
to talk about in terms of Kava.
And this is the kavasseur has takenon several forms over the years.
But it we would, this is the only spot to,to actually see a review or a an honest
review on Kavas that you could drink.
it was something I felt likeonly a few people knew about.
It was my own, secret.
Yeah.
so somebody was asking me the otherday in the comments of one of my videos
(21:21):
they're like, sometimes I don't see thepoint of watching your videos because
you like all the Kava that you drink.
And I was like, yeah, I do Veryrare that I drink a Kava where I'm
like, oh, this isn't a good Kava.
If it's Kava and it's hygienic,like I'm probably gonna like it.
So
Jimmy Price (21:36):
I expect the kasur to bring us reviews on good Kava.
I know there are somekavas that aren't good.
And that's obviously a subjectiveterm, but I'm sure you agree.
we wouldn't expect you to bring us just,complete, terrible, alright, today's
terrible re Kava review of the day.
That that's not what we would expectfrom the kasur, that just one week we
(21:58):
wouldn't see of Kava review becausethat Kava you got probably just was
crap and you didn't want to, put it outthere, you didn't want to tell people,
And second of all, you don't wanna, putout there in the community that a kava is
bad when they have a vendor should be ableto be contacted if their Kava is bad, they
should be told and they should be guided.
(22:18):
It shouldn't be like somethingwe put out there and blast.
Hey, this dude's Kava sucks.
that's that's not how we behave.
We should be like, Hey,let's work with them.
Let's, let's tell them, that there'san issue with that and get with a
vendor because, just proclaimingon the internet, it's bad.
It doesn't do anything.
But that ties into the factthat we expect the kasur to
(22:38):
bring us reviews of good kavas.
even though you never, post a badreview, it still falls in line with
what I would expect with the kasur.
If the, it's like on the, our Kava,if you're on Reddit if you don't see
it on the list, it's not that we'resaying it's bad, but we're saying,
eh, eh, we're not gonna, I'm notgonna tell you it's bad, but I'm just
(23:01):
gonna say your mileage may vary in
Douglas LaRose (23:04):
there is one.
I think there's onereview on my old website.
I stopped reviewing thesekinds of products, it was a
pill, sold by K Kava farm.
And I think it was called I Kava LoveTone I bought it from k Kava Farm and,
it's like any Kava pill, it's useless.
I remember, taking this thing and thentaking half the bottle because I was
(23:28):
like if it's just Kava, it's just Kava.
And even when I took half the bottle ofthese pills and I think I actually crushed
opened them up and like mixed 'em in water
It was still, it did absolutely nothing.
So I gave them a zero out of 10 and then Inever tried one of the supplements again.
Jimmy Price (23:44):
Yeah.
there
are, extracts and supplements outthere, but it's important that we
recognize them for what they are.
the FDA is to recognizethem for what they are.
but there are specificinstances where I could see.
Taking a small amount of Kava on aregular basis would be a good thing.
in extract forms and pillsthose are dietary supplements.
(24:08):
when we talk about Kava, we are talkingabout the traditional beverage of the
South Pacific and those products thatuse extracts or, I guess I, I'm not sure
I could say ca there's some people thatthere's some products manufacturers that
take in cap up just plain Kava in pillsand they sell that it's just ground,
(24:30):
micronized or medium grind Kava in pills.
That I can't really speak on because it'stoss and wash in Kava, but these extracts
and these things that are, build is kava.
It's not.
An extract of the plant is not the plant.
When we speak of kava, we speakabout an aqueous suspension of kava
when it's strained through water.
(24:51):
You're not extracting kava lactones.
You are essentially massaging bits andpieces of the powder off mixing them
with water and suspending them in water.
And I would
not call that an extraction.
But, it is more of a suspension,not an emulsion, because if it were
an emulsion, it wouldn't sit there.
when let your cave sit for awhile, it would never settle
(25:13):
out into two specific layers.
It is a suspension of kavalactones.
Attached to Kava pieces, moreor less the bark and not the
the center perma of the Kava.
That is essentially what we're consumingand extracts of these are, and I'll Dr.
(25:34):
Lebo use this same analogyand I'll use it as well.
'cause it is so aptt forthis application here.
You don't take, no dose caffeineextract and call it, I had coffee today.
you're not capturing thewhole plant with a solvent.
I'm sorry.
Like you're just not, there are things init that you are not getting and there are
(25:57):
studies that absolutelyprove that there are.
Many more constituents in Kavathan there are in Kava extracts.
that's why we wanna make a cleardistinction between Kava as a beverage
and Kava as a dietary supplement,we now have two states in the United
States that see Kava as a food, aslong as it's within Codex standards.
(26:20):
And now the United States is part ofthe Codex with the South Pacific and
we have a Kava standard for Kava.
So things are changing for us in termsof traditional Kava dietary supplements.
Still in that dietary supplement categoryyou still have to go by the same laws.
However, Kava is being consumed,mixed with water and is a generally
(26:43):
recognized safe food, that's why wekeep the distinguishing between dietary
supplements, which would includethe extracts and solvent extracts.
CO2 extracts, hydrocarbon extracts anysort of extract of the plant using a
solvent, that needs to be evaporatedor, sublimated That is an extract.
(27:03):
Our version of Kava, what we're talkingabout every time we come on here,
we're talking about kava as a drink.
And that's a kind of an issue withthe research that there is on kava
The research we have that people wannacite is done with Kava extracts being
applied directly to cells, which isnot how human pharmacokinetics work.
(27:25):
So it's, we still have some realscience to do in terms of knowing
exactly how Kava works, because ithasn't been addressed as a drink.
It's only been addressedas a dietary supplement.
So there are actually people workingon that and in terms of what it can
do for PTSD and what effects it hason driving all those sort of things.
(27:47):
So it's in the works in terms ofhow it affects you as a drink.
I like to make sure thatthose two things are separate.
I see a lot of things that are trying toconflate Kava and other things they're
using extracts and they're mixing extractswith other things and calling it Kava.
it's not Kava.
you're taking the plant, condensingit, extracting it, mixing it with
(28:09):
something else, using carriersIt's not Kava, you're messing with
it, It's a Kava, lacone product
Douglas LaRose (28:15):
I, think what you're saying here, speaks to.
How far we've come since,this book came out.
as fans of Kava at the time aspeople who were interested in
Kava, curious at the time, like thelinks that we would go to try Kava.
And I remember, thewhole muddy water thing.
So in the book he says there'sa quote in here that's really
(28:37):
funny about muddy water.
Oh yeah.
So with his wife and,the proprietor dipped.
The proprietor dipped the bowlsinto a plastic bucket, brimming with
Kava, and we brought them back towhere Sylvia and Patricia stood.
So Patricia is the wife of his friend.
So his wife says, it doesn'tlook very appetizing.
(28:57):
It looks like muddy water.
And then Patricia, She says,wait until you taste it.
You'll wish it was muddy water.
that speaks to where theextracts and the flavored kavas
and the Kava Hall, comes from.
That's one of the challenges that Iface is it's not even an acquired taste.
It's, something you endure, And Ithink mentally I justify the taste
(29:18):
of Kava the effects that it gives me.
And I've been drinking it for solong now that the smell of Kava and
the taste this is my happy place.
I'm about to enter my happy place.
So like that I associate inthat flavor with my happy place
made me like not thinkthat's a bad flavor, right?
It's like I now like the flavor.
'cause it's that familiar littletaste that I get before I embark on
(29:41):
my euphoric journey into the evening.
Jimmy Price (29:44):
Exactly.
You have that
condition place preferencewith that flavor and wherever
you are you drink your kava.
'cause I drink my kava at my sink.
And I used to do that because I wouldbe, it would be the place I could cuss
at my back splash 'cause of the taste.
But after becoming more educated,after reading more about kava and its
history and , how important it is tothe cultures of some of these people.
(30:07):
I drink Kava with a different attitude.
I drink it almost with especially and Ithink one we've already gone over, one
of them it was and we might not have, butthe one where he's Kava drinking in e epi.
And he was, there's some sort ofChristianity paper on the missionaries
in Kava and how Kava was used asa symbol of rebellion for these
(30:31):
missionaries and the colonial waysof life that they represented.
And man, that just mademe drink Kava even harder.
I was like, I gotta drink that Kava.
It is, it's, I really do love itand I'm on the side of those people
that has trouble with the flavor.
That's not really an issue for me anymore.
This is part of, the experience.
(30:51):
If I don't want to, if you don'tlike the flavor of kava and you,
Dr, you still want to drink kava andyou want to, still partake, chill
it, put it in the refrigerator,
then drink your kava.
It will not do as much to your mouthand you will not taste as much.
you could probably ease yourselfinto kava a bit easier if it were
chilled And there's people that willargue with me say that's not true,
Douglas LaRose (31:12):
My one caveat to that advice if you're going to do that, sure
that you only chill it for an hour oran hour and a half if you leave your
Kava in the refrigerator for a night.
It's going to turn sour.
put ice in your Kava onceyou've made it to chill it.
Kava Kava turns so quick.
sometimes I make two or three a night.
And the third one I'll just be like,Ooh, I'll be shell faced that I
(31:37):
look at that third to know and I'mlike, oh my, how am I gonna do this?
and I'll put it in the refrigerator.
And even in the morning, it'salready starting to turn.
So just A word to the wise,a word from the wise, I don't
know how that saying works.
Like definitely.
If you're gonna do the refrigeratorroute, make sure that you're still
drinking it with like a 12 hour window.
Jimmy Price (31:55):
And there's gonna be people that would probably argue with that
because
there are people that leave their kava outfor quite a while, and I know people that
leave their kava in their refrigeratorfor a few days and it turns and it
takes on this weird silky texture to it
It takes on, it makes this weird texturewhere it's like it's easier to drink.
I don't even know what that is.
(32:16):
But that
threshold is, there for sure.
Douglas LaRose (32:20):
So here I just wanted to read some more from his chapter.
He says no formal event in Fijior Tonga occurs without Kava.
But mostly Kava is usedas a social lubricant.
It is not uncommon for men in Fijito spend an entire day around the
Kava Bowl shooting the as it were,as they consume upwards of 30 shells.
(32:40):
It's different in Vanuatu.
No one drinks Kava during the day.
Not even the Kava heads, the true addicts.
Okay, I'm gonna take issuewith the word addicts.
I'm gonna, let's pretendlike you didn't just
Jimmy Price (32:51):
no.
This is a podcast for Kava addicts.
You're fine.
Douglas LaRose (32:55):
yeah.
It's taken only around dusk andinto the early hours of the evening.
And more interestingly, I thoughtas I watched a man take his shell
and wander away from his companions,one drinks Kava alone in Vanuatu.
Interesting.
That's a narrative breaker.
Because we were always told thatyou should never drink Kava alone.
(33:16):
And I get it like they're at a nakamal,with your friends, but when you go off
to drink by yourself you're watching abanana tree or the sunset then you're
gulping the Kava back and gettingback together with your friends.
But, it's interesting because wealways, we're always told that no,
you should never drink Kava alone.
It's a, uh, it violatesa sacrosanct practice.
(33:39):
but I just think it's aninteresting anecdote there.
I want to read a section of thisbook because I think it's so funny.
he says I could carryonly two bowls at a time.
Returning from mine, I was met by aNi-Vanuatu man who was like, everyone
else clad in shorts and flip flops.
(34:00):
Hello.
He said, where are you from?
I've just arrived from America.
I said, ah.
He said, my name is Sam.
I thought you from Australia, not manypeople from America come to Vanuatu.
Only Peace Corps are you Peace Corps.
I admitted that I was not.
Tourist?
Not many tourist come to the nakamal.
I explained that I wasn't a touristeither, and that I was here in
(34:21):
his land because my wife had ajob here and I had followed her.
That's what I do.
I explained, I follow my wife around.
He thought that was very funny.
How many shells do you have?
This'll be my second.
full shells already.
He admitted a low whistle.
Maybe you'll have two day Kava.
What's two Day Kava?
I asked, that's when the Kavatalks to you for two days.
(34:43):
Like a hangover?
No.
He said not like a hangover,like a dream that doesn't end.
But in Fiji, I noted peoplecan drink 30 shells a day and
still be alert in the morning.
but this isn't Fiji Kava.
This is Vanuatu Kavafrom Pentecost Island.
It is the best in the world.
Very strong.
I asked him where his home island was.
(35:05):
I am from Pentecost Island, hesaid, and then he goes into this
description about how every island likecelebrates the Kava from their island.
It shows that Jay Martin probablydidn't go super deep on Kava in the
sense that he like studied it and theculvitars in the properties because.
Maybe he was drinking two day Kava, maybebecause if the guy said you'll get two day
(35:29):
Kava, maybe at that Kava bar, if this iswritten with accuracy to what was actually
said, maybe he was drinking two day Kava.
And that explains what happens later inthe chapter where he can't move his legs.
But I just thought it was interestingthat the Ni-Vanuatu man that he ran into
said oh, you've already had two shellsand like now you're going for a third.
You might get two de Kava.
Jimmy Price (35:48):
Was that a warning?
It could have been.
Go ahead.
douglas--bud-bro-_1_01-27-2024_193650: what's interesting too is I remember in (35:52):
undefined
the early two thousands there was thisrumor that we weren't getting the best
Kava, like we were getting like basicallythe Kava that the Ni-Vanuatu didn't want,
and that there was this medicinal Kava.
That was, we didn't have like accessto all this information back then that
(36:15):
there was this medicinal Kava that wasused for rituals and mystical traditions.
we were never gonna get itbecause of the Kava Act.
And the Kava Act prevented it from beingexported because it was only supposed
to be used for religious reasons.
Do you remember that?
Track 1 (36:30):
I don't remember that one specifically.
It took its height in 2014 It started.
When, Andrew of Noble Kavawent to Vanuatu, filmed Dr.
Lebo talking about two day Kava and howit wasn't the Kava that we wanted to
drink, and that's when this whole thingstarted that are we getting noble Kava?
(36:54):
This, everyone says it's nobleKava, but how do we know?
And then he even gives a wayto test in that video, like
if your Kava was noble or not.
we're gonna run out andbuy some acetone right now.
We're test all the kavas.
But it turns out there are somethat are so subtle that you need.
A laboratory piece of equipmentto tell if you do the aceto test.
(37:15):
you could not tell whether theyare today or noble with your eyes.
it can tell you if your Kava iswildly bad, if you put your Kava
in acetone and shake it up, 30milliliters, acetone 10 grams of Kava.
Shake that up, let it settle overnightand look at the super natin or the layer
at the top, and you'll see if it's purelynoble, it'll just be a golden color.
(37:41):
But if it's a wild kava or really gnarlytwo day kava, it'll be either red or
I've had one that was black, but thatsort of thing tells you that you should
and this, it's a good field test forexporters to see, that's a really quick
way of knowing if your Kava is, good orif you should probably test it further.
(38:01):
If it doesn't come out the way youwant it, it just means it needs to
be tested, by an actual HPLC or toH-T-P-L-C something that's a lab
grade equipment that can actuallytell you what's in the Kava But
that was a big point in that whole.
Debate on two-day, And from myexperience with two-Day Kaaba that I
know was the isa or Madang Short thatwas brought from Papua New Guinea
(38:25):
and planted in, in okay, here's thestory on isa, and this is ISA Plant in
America is not, it was not American.
Dr.
Lebo brought a sample for his herbariumhere in Hawaii It was an interesting
plant because its genetics were differentthan all the other Kava plants, but
it broke, quote unquote broke out ofthe botanical specimen library they
(38:50):
had and became a commercial crop.
Yeah, it grows faster.
You can climb it like a tree.
It's huge.
Douglas LaRose (38:57):
you done that?
Have you
Jimmy Price (38:58):
I've seen one in Ed's property that I think I could have
climbed, but it's a different plantwith different genetics from a
different part of the world that gotplaced in Hawaii that, did really
well in terms of its survival.
So naturally it's everywhere.
And that's the kava that I consumedmicronized for about eight months.
(39:23):
I would drink about a tablespoon a day.
two or three tablespoonsmixed into one cup of water.
It was terrible.
would
drink
Douglas LaRose (39:31):
which one were you drinking?
Which vendor?
Jimmy Price (39:33):
It was Hawaii.
kava Center, and
douglas--bud-bro-_1_01-27-2024_193650: Yeah, I remember that. (39:37):
undefined
Jimmy Price (39:38):
the other Kavas were awesome.
he sold micronized kavas.
Douglas LaRose (39:41):
Oh, no, he sold medium grain.
Yeah.
I think maybe in the early daysthey sold them in like coffee bags.
Jimmy Price (39:46):
all coffee bags.
I remember that.
But I don't ever remember straining everone of it's kavas, but that could be on
me.
But yeah he that I drank Isa for abouteight months, and it made my back bleed.
Like it made my
skin split bleed made mehave weird sort of symptoms.
and the only thing, like it didn't.
(40:07):
It harmed me in the way, like thatit was uncomfortable, but in terms
of physical, it didn't actually hurtme, but it I think what it boiled
down to was, as an industry, wewanna put our best foot forward.
And with a Kava like that, it's noteven really, yeah, it's Kava, but
it's not, it may not be Piper Mathum.
(40:28):
It's got such weak, it's genetics areoff the charts in terms of comparing
it to Kava from anywhere else.
So it's a strange one.
It doesn't mean it's not drinkable.
it's just a strange one.
And I think it's genetics are interestingand it's when one of the only cultivars
that I've made a kava effect on mysubstack on in terms of its, people always
(40:48):
being so like, interested, what is Isa?
It's a cultivar that wasbrought to Hawaii by Dr.
Dr.
Lebo and that it escaped and has been usedas a cultivated crop there, and it doesn't
create seeds or reproduce naturally.
So it's still it's still Kava,but it's just a weird one.
(41:09):
but it was my only, in, myonly known introduction or
consumption of a non noble Kava.
But in terms of some of these vendorsback in that day they had some
kavas come out that were horrific.
They horrific.
They would make you visit thebathroom and throw up every time
you it,
Douglas LaRose (41:28):
yeah.
Jimmy Price (41:29):
mean, I.
It was a
time
when we didn't know, even thevendors at that time didn't know.
we were all discovering at the sametime what we needed as a industry to
make sure that we were putting ourbest foot forward for the customer.
I think that was just too strongfor a first introduction and making
somebody sick and something like that.
(41:49):
But yeah, if drank kava for a longtime and you wanna try Isa, try it.
It's not kill you, but it's not agame changer and it's not gonna.
Fix the world, and they'replanting it in Florida.
I think that's awesome in terms ofhaving a reminder of how sacred Kava is.
I wish I could grow a Kava plant here.
I would just have it justto know and appreciate
(42:11):
the plan itself, truly.
And that's the
I
see the thing in Florida, is that peopleare able to appreciate the plan itself.
And there's a lot of, there's a lot ofdebate and controversy around that, but
Douglas LaRose (42:23):
I have one in my window.
Jimmy Price (42:24):
oh, nice.
Douglas LaRose (42:25):
Yeah.
O like overlooking Baltimore city
and, you It's still alive.
I've had it for four monthsand, or maybe three months.
time means in strangeways, still very healthy.
Was gonna, I was gonna say alsothat, just to connect it back to
this book that Isa, in Vanuatuthey would call it Two Day Kava.
that's the actual name of the Kava is
(42:46):
T-U-D-E-I two day Kava.
That's the name that theyhave for Isa in Vanuatu.
And when you drink it, if you drinkKava on a regular basis and you're
drinking Noble Kava and you get Isa.
You're pretty much gonnaknow that you're drinking Isa
when the last time you had Isa was,but when you make Isa or two de Kava,
(43:09):
it has this like kind of thin texture
to it's like very peppery
Jimmy Price (43:13):
Pine.
Douglas LaRose (43:13):
Cutting the flavor of grass cuttings.
Jimmy Price (43:16):
Flake like you're drinking grass and pine cones mixed together.
Douglas LaRose (43:19):
the pine cones That's a good description.
you're gonna notice that theeffects are more stimulating.
For me at least, I don't know thatpeople are different, but like I
find that the effects to be morestimulating and they stick around longer.
Um, and like the next day you mightbe dragging your feet a little bit.
Which is why I don't like it.
Jimmy Price (43:37):
Yeah.
You wanna drink kava and then when youwake up in the morning, be all right.
And honestly, even noble kava can carryover into the next day with how I feel.
But I'm not
complaining about it.
I don't complain about that.
I like that.
It's like I'm a little bit.
The next day as I go to work and
Douglas LaRose (43:54):
Oh, absolutely.
Jimmy Price (43:55):
I think it's great.
Douglas LaRose (43:56):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I'm celebrated around my office asbeing the chillest person and the most
compassionate and kind and mindful personbecause, I'm really cooking myself up here
Track 1 (44:08):
Dirt bag.
Douglas LaRose (44:09):
but a lot of it has to do with the Kava.
I
can concentrate and I can do a reallygood job at my office without getting
stressed out Because of Kava and I don'thave to be drinking it during the day.
I think it's a cumulativeeffect on my personality
from drinking so much Kava Thataura of calmness around people,
Jimmy Price (44:30):
Yeah, it's a stark difference in your life lifestyle.
I'm glad I found the kavasseurLike it changed everything
about how I approach my life.
Kava gives me space, it gives me thistime to reflect on myself without being
overly critical I can be constructiveabout myself and it gives me that ability.
(44:53):
this book he covers in his account of it,I think everyone should read Some people
can be like, oh yeah, I've been there.
Okay, yeah, this guy knows, This is real.
He uses some interesting languageBut I thought it was a very
excellent read and anybody that
Kaaba should read that.
Douglas LaRose (45:11):
I do have one more topic I wanted to discuss we wrap up.
Okay.
So when he gets to this section, I'llask you first, when he describes how
Kava felt like on that first encounterin Vanuatu he had to get carried off.
have you ever this experience withKava, like the way he describes it?
Jimmy Price (45:35):
I've fallen on my face one time, but yes, it's possible.
And in Vanuatu it's not hard.
Douglas LaRose (45:42):
So maybe what I'll do is I'll read this to close it out This is,
these are the words hit a young Douglas.
And basically turnedme into The Kavasseur.
So, because I wanted thisexperience, I don't think I've ever
had a Kava experience like this.
So here we go.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna read thisand then we can close it out.
So he says he, so they're at thethey're at the Knock 'em mall,
(46:04):
and he's sitting next to hisnew friend Sam who's a Natu man.
And, Dirk is also there, who's his friend.
And then there are two wives.
All right, I'm gonnaread this little excerpt.
I on the bench next to Sam, my brother,who's not his brother, by the way.
It's, this is his new NevonWaze friend smoked a cigarette.
(46:28):
So sweet.
This tobacco.
Very heavy to lift this cigarette.
I am.
I thought I am here.
There others, such good people.
There are my brothers.
There is no time.
No such thing.
There is now, and it goes forever.
On and on backwards too, to the past.
(46:49):
So heavy.
This cigarette, another shell.
A voice.
Whose voice?
Dirks a good man.
Dirk.
He is my brother.
Yes.
I said, let us fly on.
Cannot move feet.
Why do you not move feet?
We'll speak to legs.
Legs need help too.
Push up with arms.
(47:10):
Yes.
Standing now.
Must get from here to there.
Legs not moving.
Why will you not move Legs?
Ah, happy now.
No need to move legs here.
Is Dirk a good man?
Dirk?
Thank you.
Tomas.
to speak.
Shall stop speaking.
Here is the kava.
There are the lights, stars.
My brothers good.
Kava, very smooth.
(47:31):
Can sit down now have missed bench.
Jimmy Price (47:34):
Oops.
Douglas LaRose (47:35):
Here is the dirt.
Shall rest here.
Dirty.
This dirt.
Ashes to ashes.
Dust to dust.
I am one with the dirt.
is this lifting?
Me?
Why there is Sam?
Hello Sam, can you hear me?
Yes you can.
We are brothers.
Thank you Sam.
There's my wife.
I love her.
So she'll tell her when mouth works.
She's speaking.
(47:56):
Go.
She says no.
Cannot go.
Cannot move.
Legs stay.
We must.
Sounds like Yoda.
Right there.
There is the moon.
I see you Moon.
Beautiful moon.
I'm watching you.
Do you see me?
I am one with you.
Still feel very heavy.
So heavy.
Shall sleep.
Now, who is this carrying me.
Hello Sam.
Hello Dirk.
My brothers do not carry me.
Just let me lie here.
(48:17):
I'll be one with the dirtworld is moving much too fast.
Lights, darkness, lights again.
Many more lights.
Am inside a car.
Do not like cars.
Here's my wife, here's my house.
No.
Do not turn on lights.
I can totally relate to that.
Lights must go off.
Yes, the bed.
Good idea.
Shall just lie here for a moment.
Am dreaming very strange dreams.
(48:40):
Would like to wake up now.
Cannot wake up.
that.
Jimmy Price (48:44):
I think my
favorite part of that is Iwill be one with the dirt.
Douglas LaRose (48:48):
Yeah.
Jimmy Price (48:49):
we can all agree that when we drink kava, we become one with the earth.
Douglas LaRose (48:54):
Yeah.
didn't think about it that way.
Jimmy Price (48:56):
Okay hey, it was a great
Douglas LaRose (48:57):
Good stuff.
Track 1 (48:58):
Yep.
And I
fully encourage everyone toread this book and to enjoy this
experience thanks for joining in.
Doug, you can sign us off
douglas--bud-bro-_1_01-27-2024_193650: like all good things this episode (49:07):
undefined
of the Kava Lounge must come toan end we hope you enjoyed it.
please do check out this book and ifyou get a chance, read the whole thing.
enjoy your Kava and bula ofthe hula and see you next time.
Track 1 (49:20):
Bula.
Pour in the tanoa and sit down and enjoy another
session of the Kava Lounge
Alright.
Welcome back to the Kava Lounge everyone.
I've been really excited aboutthis episode for a long time J.
Maarten Troost was to me what I think the
Kavasseur blog was toa lot of other people.
(00:29):
I had been drinking Kava on and off.
For about six or seven years before I readthe book that we're gonna discuss here.
And had only had the Yogi Teaand the Kava King, instant Kava.
when I read this book and got to thechapter where he talked about Kava,
I immediately my antenna went up Iwas thinking about trips to Vanuatu.
(00:52):
I was planning trips to the South Pacificbecause I needed to try this stuff out.
And I would, because I hadlove, I already loved Kava.
But when I read his description ofKava, I was like, this sounds like
exactly what I need, Alcohol's no good.
I've never been a big fan of marijuana, and this guy went to Vanuatu and
he tried the real thing had thisamazing relationship with Kava.
(01:15):
this book turned me into the Kavasseurit made me, excited about Kava.
And after reading this chapter, Iimmediately figured out that you could
buy Dried Ground Kava Online, and that'sthe like, basically where my blog started.
So that's some background for this.
Before we jump into the details,
Jimmy Price (01:34):
That's some origin story stuff, man.
That's awesome.
Douglas LaRose (01:37):
absolutely.
Jimmy Price (01:38):
I love it.
J.
Maarten Troost is the author of this book.
all of my research, on kava, allthe papers, research documents and
graphs I've never read this book.
until now 20 years drinking Kava.
But, I found it very interesting inhow he just organically tries Kava.
He didn't even hear ofit until he got there.
(02:00):
And he's talking to one of the peoplethere and he is you tried Kava.
And so he is the sunset wouldlook a lot better with some Kava.
he really does capture a very strongKava experience . And that's the thing I
think that we should highlight in this.
Podcast is that there are differenttraditions for consuming Kava.
there's different uses forconsuming Kava across these
(02:23):
different islands that produce it,that actually have cultivated it.
here we can see that, this isn'tsomething they savor even here they
talk about, it's just something weendure, which is part of the process
in terms of the taste and everything.
But he gets the organic experiences ofgoing straight in with no knowledge and
(02:44):
getting completely flatlined by kava.
with the description he gives,it makes me wonder how noble that
kava he was drinking really was.
Douglas LaRose (02:54):
Five shells.
Jimmy Price (02:55):
Five shells is enough to make you not want Kava for two days.
I have to wonder, what cultivarwas that, that they were making?
But you know what, at this time,probably no one cared about that.
But it's interesting to see the way thathe goes about this, We come at it from a
scientific angle, from a social angle.
He talks about how, what he doesn'tunderstand how someone could ever
(03:17):
want to avoid the Netherlandsas because of the lack of
narcotics.
he is a typical American there.
he doesn't understand these things.
And then by the end of the chapterhe completely understands, and
this is chapter four of the book.
Douglas LaRose (03:31):
so if you read the whole book his wife works in
the same line of work that I do.
She's a international developmentspecialist, and he moves to Vanuatu and
he's a writer and he is like trying tofind his voice in the writing world.
And I think this is his firstbook So he gets to Vanuatu.
(03:52):
this guy J.
Maarten Troost, he wasborn in the Netherlands.
I think he's about 55 years old right now.
But he was born in the Netherlands.
And He meets this guy Dirk, who is fromHolland, and they're like shooting the
and like talking about how much they Ms.
Holland and they miss the coffeeshops and they miss coffee shops being
(04:12):
the places you go to buy marijuana.
And then Dirk tellshim, and this is how J.
Maarten Troost hears about Kava.
He's I would never wannago back to Holland.
And then J.
Maarten Troost there is what?
You would never wanna go back toHolland, like your home country, which.
I think everybody thinks that,the Netherlands is probably
a pretty nice place to live.
But the guy responds to him never.
(04:33):
There is no Kava in Holland
There is no Kava in the USso I won't go there either.
when I reread this preparing for thispodcast, the world has changed so
much since I read this book the firsttime because at the time that this
book was written, it was probablyimpossible to get Kava in the us.
And I think probably still it'simpossible to get in the Netherlands.
(04:55):
but it is just amazing that,kava was such an unknown thing.
And then J.
Maarten Troost goes into this deepbeautiful narrative about how central
Kava is to the life of Neva Natupeople and how the Kava bars in Port
Villa are the center of society.
And if you go, if you wanna havea meeting with a Prime Minister or
(05:15):
the minister of Agriculture, Hey,let's go to the Knock 'em all in the
evening time and have a conversation.
it is such a beautifully written chapter.
I think that he gets a little bit carriedaway describing how the Kava affects him.
I've seen some YouTube videos of peoplehaving strong reactions to Kava, but
I've never, had a Kava experiencethat took me this far And then later
on in the podcast, I'll read somesections that I highlighted it's an
(05:38):
amazing chapter of an amazing book.
this guy disappeared.
I emailed him when I was in graduateschool asking him what kind of Kava
he drank and who he ordered it fromand he responded that, oh oh, I'm
in India right now, and I'm like,having a fight with my publisher.
And then there were a couple more booksafter that had nothing to do with India.
(05:59):
But he disappeared from the writing scene.
been like 10 years, published a book.
Jimmy Price (06:03):
if you go to his Wikipedia article, the Getting Stones with Savages
is from 2006 and it's a second book.
thE first one is TheSex Lives of Cannibals.
Douglas LaRose (06:13):
I've read that one too.
Yeah.
Jimmy Price (06:14):
and it says, I was told there'd be sex bots travels through
the future anticipated publication.
Summer 2017, not releasedas of April, 2022.
Douglas LaRose (06:24):
I remember when that book was supposed to come out and I was
anticipating it then it never came out.
his last book was called The Head Huntersat my Doorstep, it was about his battle
with alcoholism and his newfound sobriety.
But it wasn't, as good as his other ones.
So
maybe he just, Something else.
Jimmy Price (06:41):
there is a part in this chapter where he talks about how.
he Drinks Kava, he gets kinda loopyand he suddenly realizes that he's
being like completely faux pa likehe's being just, he's like laughing
and joking during a Kava ceremonywhere they're crowning a new princess
And I think at that point, he didn't knowanything about kava and he thought it
(07:03):
was pretty much equal to a couple beers.
And that was that.
So he he starts out with justnothing in terms of understanding.
And even he talks about, I thinksome of the things he, when he
compares Kava to other things, heeven says this was more like heroin.
It's consumption.
That is something thatyou had to be endured.
It's just God, alright.
(07:24):
I guess that's one way you could put it.
I'm not sure I could parallel anythingabout my Kava consumption too.
Heroin consumption, having done both?
No, but whatever.
Hey I'm not here to pick at it 'causeit's really, this was obviously
your first look into what theCabo scene might be in the world.
Where it exists, where it, where that'sa thing, we didn't have it in 2006.
(07:46):
I had just discovered Kava in 2006.
Like I had just figured outwhat Kava was in 2006 and right.
But, I mean that there, there was noinformation on the internet at that time.
There was a blue light post and therewas some iwi posts and there was some
Peace Corps posts, and that was it.
And then after a couple yearshere, here comes the Kavasseur.
(08:08):
We, I didn't know anyone elseeven knew about this stuff.
I thought, this was a secret that, onlya few people had it was just a, special
plant that no one knew anything about.
And that's how we came to Kava.
It was in this sort of fashion.
It wasn't, Fijian style or Tongan style.
It was this, in your face Drink this Kava,this is Kava is this is what it does.
(08:32):
You drink it like this and youhave these sort of effects.
It relaxes you and it makes you calm,calms you down makes you more chatty.
And there are cultures out therewhere it's not what you aim
for and it's just part of theceremonial consumption of Kava.
You drink your shell, you clap yourhands, you do this, you don't do that.
Like it there the rules are different.
(08:54):
And they were they were givento us differently when Kava
first arrived on the scene.
We didn't.
There was no ceremonial, like passed downof information when we first started.
So this being your first exposure to thekava scene makes sense because that's
where we were looking for Kava, wewere tired of all those other things.
We didn't want those other drugs.
(09:15):
We were, we tired of the optionsthat were out there and we were
looking for something different.
you put the Kavasseur blogout there and The Yuku forum.
And that was the onlysource of information.
And it's funny, you can see thisreflected in how we went after
kava, the research side of it.
The, what does it feel like, thedifferent cultivars, how did they
(09:37):
affect us differently, thatsort of hitting us and us
diving down that direction.
But I'll let you talkfor a little bit, Doug.
Sorry I stole it from you.
Douglas LaRose (09:45):
No.
This is a good conversation here.
One thing and I was thinkingabout this when I was reading
This chapter, I think this is theonly chapter of a book we've read.
That's, like a part of a longkind of unfolding narrative.
But one thing that stood out in J.
Maarten Troost very kinda cleverlyforeshadows something that I don't wanna
(10:06):
say haunts us, but haunts us to this day.
And you referred earlier to this theKava ceremony for the visiting Fijian
Princess, and he's in Tonga for that.
This is J.
Maarten Troost's firstencounter with Kava.
So he is at this, the Kava ceremonyfor this visiting Fijian princess.
He has what he considers to belike, eh, like a meh with Kava.
(10:30):
And they, they drink it and he feelslike a little bit relaxed, but he talks
more about the the Novocaine effect thatKava has on your lips and your mouth
Mumbles to the princess.
And then, him and his friendmake big fools of themselves.
But what stood out to me in that story.
More than anything else was the followinghe says she was being honored by the
(10:53):
Fijians living in Tonga, and unaware thatwhen that unaware then a Kava ceremony
was among Fijians and the aristocracy.
He's talking about him and hisfriend, not the Fijian princess.
So they were unaware what a big deal aKava ceremony was Fijians and Tongans.
And so they're in this Kava circleand it's a very formal, ritualistic
(11:14):
type of event probably similar towhat you experienced in Hawaii.
he turned to the princess andhe said, princess, how much Ava?
It's too much Ava.
his Nepalese friend, he turned to Mar J.
Maarten Troost and he says, you walkone E instead of you talk funny.
and then they start like rolling overwith laughter, and I think afterwards
(11:35):
they find out that was incrediblyinappropriate Kava in Fiji and Tonga
it is like this very ritualistic thingand you're supposed to respect it and
honor these traditions and yes, ifyou're ever in a traditional setting,
you should be honoring their traditions
and ask how you can be asrespectful as possible.
But to contrast that laterin the chapter, he contrasts
(11:59):
Vanuatu Kava drinking culture.
this is a big debate right nowin the Kava community about how
to respect Kava and what culturalappropriation is and what it isn't.
he shows that even at that time in2005, you could look at Vanuatu Kava
Drinking Culture and Fijian Kava DrinkingCulture and compare them Tongans and
(12:20):
Fijians were still very traditional.
they drank Kava in thismore of a formal setting.
Whereas in Vanuatu you hadthe nakamals where it's a bar.
People, you go to the bar they spoonout your shell of Kava, you pay
them and then you hang out with yourfriends or you go by yourself and
you drink Kava under a tree It wasinteresting to see that, comparison of
(12:41):
the two ceremonies because it affectedhis experience of Kava both times.
I think it also helps.
I.
Give a good illustration ofhow Kava is not one thing.
Kava is many different things acrosscountries and times and cultures.
So I just wanted to point that out 'causeI thought it was interesting given the
(13:01):
kind of current debates been having.
Jimmy Price (13:04):
2006 was just a little while ago, man.
That's, or 2005.
That was almost 20 years ago.
We're getting old.
But, I thought one of the funniestthings in here was how he described Kava.
He said that he watched someone make it.
he said, someone was describing whatthey were doing and he said, Kava
is like the sausage of the Pacific.
douglas--bud-bro-_1_01-27-2024_193650 (13:25):
I
Jimmy Price (13:25):
if you saw some of these knock 'em alls, and he was
in the bush with a meat grinder.
Mix it up with your hands and strain itthrough a cloth, and dump it into a bucket
So he was probably seeing the real waythat that Kava was consumed on the island.
I'm sure that it would seem like somethingyou wouldn't wanna know how it's made.
But now I'm sure that'squite a bit different.
(13:47):
they have a tourist appeal for that.
a lot of people that drink kavaknow where the good kava is.
if you don't have good kava,you won't get customers.
I thought that was hilarious.
He was like, what do you do?
You take your bowl, find something nice tolook at, the sunset, the stars, the trees,
Then with that image in mind, you takethe kava and you drink it all at once.
then you listen to the kavaand try not to throw up.
(14:11):
And I was just like, when I readthat to my wife and she laughed.
'cause she has always had issues with it.
But after a while, even the bestof us have issues with kava every
now and then where we drink toomuch and we haven't eaten anything
that day and it doesn't agree us.
maybe once a year it turns on you.
But, I can understand that drinkingreally strong Kava, if you were
(14:31):
drinking it excessively for the firsttime, you might wanna, go a slow and
this whole chapter is a reminder to.
When drinking Kava, go slow.
Drink your shell.
Listen to that.
If it gets too loud, stop.
he does go into, what it means to beconnected to the Kava Bar and what it
means to the locals to be connected tothe , the nakamal, he even says to his
(14:55):
friend, if you have an issue, you go toRonnie's, knock, all you know, got robbed.
One of his friends was robbed.
He said, do you have any connectionsto the Kava drinking culture here?
And they're like, no.
He's go to Ronnie's, talked tothe chief and got his stuff back.
it was a pillar of the Vanuatucommunity in 2006 when this book was
written, and it still is in 2024.
(15:17):
their total GDPs is quite entangled withtheir export of Kava it's big and I'm
glad that he was able to influence youinto this that gave us the incentive to.
Do our research Obviously thisstuff is legitimate 'cause this
dude is writing a blog about it,and there's, people that drink it.
(15:37):
So it was a new thing to us in America.
And I'm glad it was through this way,even though I think about it when I
view it from the lens of the culturalSouth Pacific Fiji where what we
are doing is almost sacrilegious.
'cause we're like breaking downand studying something that
they've been consuming for thepast, countless generations.
it would be like if someonewas deeply studying coffee.
(15:58):
it came across interestingly to America
I'm glad it did because we wouldn'thave gotten so deeply interested in it.
I think it gravitatedtowards the right people.
It's different.
It has the people that get involved withKava have interesting, li always have
interesting backgrounds in lives and thisco this guy, being there consequentially
(16:21):
not intent, not because he moved thereintentionally to, go live with the locals.
He was there, with his wife.
it's interesting to see his point of itand going through the whole, getting to
understand the culture and it truly wasthrough Kava that he got to understand.
Vanuatu and the people of Vanuatuand it is that connector and
(16:43):
cultural carrier of informationand connections between people.
Even though he was just able to understandthe language of Islam, he knew he was
becoming part of the community throughhis interactions with this drink.
And that's awesome, but I'll let you talk.
Douglas LaRose (17:00):
Yeah by the end of the chapter, a lot of dialogue
back and forth that's in B Islamand it's interesting to read that.
so when I read this book, I immediatelywent online 'cause I drank the yogi tea.
I drank the Kava King, but I waslike, I gotta try the real thing.
I had this like urge to try the real thing
and I was like, looking atflights to the South Pacific.
(17:20):
I was thinking about changing mygraduate research to focus on Kava.
You have to be obsessed withsomething to start a blog, right?
So I ordered, a bunch of Kavafrom Knock 'em All at Home.
I ordered.
I ordered Black Sand.
There was like a Fijian Kava thatthey sold at the time, but I remember
getting my first bag of Kava inthe mail and I was so excited.
(17:44):
And my my, I was living at, withmy parents at the time 'cause I was
going to San Diego State Universityand my mom they hadn't retired yet.
So I had the house tomyself for the afternoon.
And I got this bag of Kava in the mail.
And when you first have your first bagof Kava, you're like, how do I get.
That to turn into a drink.
(18:06):
so I went to YouTube and I watched thisvideo on how to make Kava And I was like,
I'm gonna drink the Wow Kava, 'cause thisstuff is supposed to be the real deal.
and I had this strainer that Iordered from N Kamal at home.
I had the soy lessin,
Jimmy Price (18:19):
do.
I had it myself.
Douglas LaRose (18:21):
And I watched this video and they were like, you take
one cup of Kava to one cup of water.
Jimmy Price (18:28):
Yeah.
Douglas LaRose (18:29):
And I followed the instructions on the video
and my first thought was really?
Like I just paid $40 for this bag of Kava.
So anyways I made this bowl of Kavathat looked like a can of paint.
And it was the thickest,nastiest, most peppery.
Sludge I've ever had that I calledKava and I threw back one shell
(18:54):
and I was like, oh God, that's,oh, that's just as bad as J.
Maarten Troost re described it.
and I didn't really feel too much,gave it another 10 or 15 minutes and
then I went and I mixed up the bowl'cause it had started to like separate
and I threw back a second shell andthen I became unbelievably sick.
I Felt so sick.
Like all those Kava Lactone, I think ithas something to do with the numbing of
(19:17):
your stomach from the research I've done.
But I ran to the bathroom and I.
Definitely threw up multiple times.
And then my mother came home from workwe had planned to go to, In-N-Out Burger
for Dinner, which is, the greatest placeto get a burger in the United States.
Debatable.
But it's my opinion.
And I was like, mom I really, you reallycan't go get a cheeseburger right now.
(19:40):
I feel so sick.
And she's like, why do you feel so sick?
And I was like I drank this Kava stuff.
she immediately thoughtit was some horrible drug.
And I, was in my late twenties Ibought it on the internet, it was a
lot like this book where, I thoughtthat, okay, this stuff is gonna always
taste really bad and later I found outthat okay, you don't have to use that
much Kava to make a Tanoa of Kava.
(20:02):
You can use like one cup ofKava for an entire, session.
Jimmy Price (20:06):
Hey.
At least you.
At least you.
strained your.
Wow.
I didn't, I
Douglas LaRose (20:10):
right,
Jimmy Price (20:10):
I was just putting the tablespoons into a glass and
just stirring it up and drinking.
this tastes better than the other ones.
Douglas LaRose (20:17):
Yeah.
It was a remarkable experience.
if you go to the kasewer.blogspot.com, you should
find some of those, early reviews.
they were all written, like I,I sat down and I wrote them.
Because, to upload a video to YouTubeback then was like a whole ordeal,
Jimmy Price (20:30):
it's still up as of this video's release in January of 2024
Douglas LaRose (20:35):
Nice.
Yeah.
And I miss the written review part of it.
that was always something we would alwayslike, talk about, it would go to the
forums and we'd talk about your reviewsand he'd be like, oh, we gotta try that.
Or, he didn't like that one.
I bet I'm gonna try it anyways.
We were always, going after yourreviews Trying the stuff out ourselves.
it was a fun time in the Kavaworld because it was what we had
(20:57):
to talk about in terms of Kava.
And this is the kavasseur has takenon several forms over the years.
But it we would, this is the only spot to,to actually see a review or a an honest
review on Kavas that you could drink.
it was something I felt likeonly a few people knew about.
It was my own, secret.
Yeah.
so somebody was asking me the otherday in the comments of one of my videos
(21:21):
they're like, sometimes I don't see thepoint of watching your videos because
you like all the Kava that you drink.
And I was like, yeah, I do Veryrare that I drink a Kava where I'm
like, oh, this isn't a good Kava.
If it's Kava and it's hygienic,like I'm probably gonna like it.
So
Jimmy Price (21:36):
I expect the kasur to bring us reviews on good Kava.
I know there are somekavas that aren't good.
And that's obviously a subjectiveterm, but I'm sure you agree.
we wouldn't expect you to bring us just,complete, terrible, alright, today's
terrible re Kava review of the day.
That that's not what we would expectfrom the kasur, that just one week we
(21:58):
wouldn't see of Kava review becausethat Kava you got probably just was
crap and you didn't want to, put it outthere, you didn't want to tell people,
And second of all, you don't wanna, putout there in the community that a kava is
bad when they have a vendor should be ableto be contacted if their Kava is bad, they
should be told and they should be guided.
(22:18):
It shouldn't be like somethingwe put out there and blast.
Hey, this dude's Kava sucks.
that's that's not how we behave.
We should be like, Hey,let's work with them.
Let's, let's tell them, that there'san issue with that and get with a
vendor because, just proclaimingon the internet, it's bad.
It doesn't do anything.
But that ties into the factthat we expect the kasur to
(22:38):
bring us reviews of good kavas.
even though you never, post a badreview, it still falls in line with
what I would expect with the kasur.
If the, it's like on the, our Kava,if you're on Reddit if you don't see
it on the list, it's not that we'resaying it's bad, but we're saying,
eh, eh, we're not gonna, I'm notgonna tell you it's bad, but I'm just
(23:01):
gonna say your mileage may vary in
Douglas LaRose (23:04):
there is one.
I think there's onereview on my old website.
I stopped reviewing thesekinds of products, it was a
pill, sold by K Kava farm.
And I think it was called I Kava LoveTone I bought it from k Kava Farm and,
it's like any Kava pill, it's useless.
I remember, taking this thing and thentaking half the bottle because I was
(23:28):
like if it's just Kava, it's just Kava.
And even when I took half the bottle ofthese pills and I think I actually crushed
opened them up and like mixed 'em in water
It was still, it did absolutely nothing.
So I gave them a zero out of 10 and then Inever tried one of the supplements again.
Jimmy Price (23:44):
Yeah.
there
are, extracts and supplements outthere, but it's important that we
recognize them for what they are.
the FDA is to recognizethem for what they are.
but there are specificinstances where I could see.
Taking a small amount of Kava on aregular basis would be a good thing.
in extract forms and pillsthose are dietary supplements.
(24:08):
when we talk about Kava, we are talkingabout the traditional beverage of the
South Pacific and those products thatuse extracts or, I guess I, I'm not sure
I could say ca there's some people thatthere's some products manufacturers that
take in cap up just plain Kava in pillsand they sell that it's just ground,
(24:30):
micronized or medium grind Kava in pills.
That I can't really speak on because it'stoss and wash in Kava, but these extracts
and these things that are, build is kava.
It's not.
An extract of the plant is not the plant.
When we speak of kava, we speakabout an aqueous suspension of kava
when it's strained through water.
(24:51):
You're not extracting kava lactones.
You are essentially massaging bits andpieces of the powder off mixing them
with water and suspending them in water.
And I would
not call that an extraction.
But, it is more of a suspension,not an emulsion, because if it were
an emulsion, it wouldn't sit there.
when let your cave sit for awhile, it would never settle
(25:13):
out into two specific layers.
It is a suspension of kavalactones.
Attached to Kava pieces, moreor less the bark and not the
the center perma of the Kava.
That is essentially what we're consumingand extracts of these are, and I'll Dr.
(25:34):
Lebo use this same analogyand I'll use it as well.
'cause it is so aptt forthis application here.
You don't take, no dose caffeineextract and call it, I had coffee today.
you're not capturing thewhole plant with a solvent.
I'm sorry.
Like you're just not, there are things init that you are not getting and there are
(25:57):
studies that absolutelyprove that there are.
Many more constituents in Kavathan there are in Kava extracts.
that's why we wanna make a cleardistinction between Kava as a beverage
and Kava as a dietary supplement,we now have two states in the United
States that see Kava as a food, aslong as it's within Codex standards.
(26:20):
And now the United States is part ofthe Codex with the South Pacific and
we have a Kava standard for Kava.
So things are changing for us in termsof traditional Kava dietary supplements.
Still in that dietary supplement categoryyou still have to go by the same laws.
However, Kava is being consumed,mixed with water and is a generally
(26:43):
recognized safe food, that's why wekeep the distinguishing between dietary
supplements, which would includethe extracts and solvent extracts.
CO2 extracts, hydrocarbon extracts anysort of extract of the plant using a
solvent, that needs to be evaporatedor, sublimated That is an extract.
(27:03):
Our version of Kava, what we're talkingabout every time we come on here,
we're talking about kava as a drink.
And that's a kind of an issue withthe research that there is on kava
The research we have that people wannacite is done with Kava extracts being
applied directly to cells, which isnot how human pharmacokinetics work.
(27:25):
So it's, we still have some realscience to do in terms of knowing
exactly how Kava works, because ithasn't been addressed as a drink.
It's only been addressedas a dietary supplement.
So there are actually people workingon that and in terms of what it can
do for PTSD and what effects it hason driving all those sort of things.
(27:47):
So it's in the works in terms ofhow it affects you as a drink.
I like to make sure thatthose two things are separate.
I see a lot of things that are trying toconflate Kava and other things they're
using extracts and they're mixing extractswith other things and calling it Kava.
it's not Kava.
you're taking the plant, condensingit, extracting it, mixing it with
(28:09):
something else, using carriersIt's not Kava, you're messing with
it, It's a Kava, lacone product
Douglas LaRose (28:15):
I, think what you're saying here, speaks to.
How far we've come since,this book came out.
as fans of Kava at the time aspeople who were interested in
Kava, curious at the time, like thelinks that we would go to try Kava.
And I remember, thewhole muddy water thing.
So in the book he says there'sa quote in here that's really
(28:37):
funny about muddy water.
Oh yeah.
So with his wife and,the proprietor dipped.
The proprietor dipped the bowlsinto a plastic bucket, brimming with
Kava, and we brought them back towhere Sylvia and Patricia stood.
So Patricia is the wife of his friend.
So his wife says, it doesn'tlook very appetizing.
(28:57):
It looks like muddy water.
And then Patricia, She says,wait until you taste it.
You'll wish it was muddy water.
that speaks to where theextracts and the flavored kavas
and the Kava Hall, comes from.
That's one of the challenges that Iface is it's not even an acquired taste.
It's, something you endure, And Ithink mentally I justify the taste
(29:18):
of Kava the effects that it gives me.
And I've been drinking it for solong now that the smell of Kava and
the taste this is my happy place.
I'm about to enter my happy place.
So like that I associate inthat flavor with my happy place
made me like not thinkthat's a bad flavor, right?
It's like I now like the flavor.
'cause it's that familiar littletaste that I get before I embark on
(29:41):
my euphoric journey into the evening.
Jimmy Price (29:44):
Exactly.
You have that
condition place preferencewith that flavor and wherever
you are you drink your kava.
'cause I drink my kava at my sink.
And I used to do that because I wouldbe, it would be the place I could cuss
at my back splash 'cause of the taste.
But after becoming more educated,after reading more about kava and its
history and , how important it is tothe cultures of some of these people.
(30:07):
I drink Kava with a different attitude.
I drink it almost with especially and Ithink one we've already gone over, one
of them it was and we might not have, butthe one where he's Kava drinking in e epi.
And he was, there's some sort ofChristianity paper on the missionaries
in Kava and how Kava was used asa symbol of rebellion for these
(30:31):
missionaries and the colonial waysof life that they represented.
And man, that just mademe drink Kava even harder.
I was like, I gotta drink that Kava.
It is, it's, I really do love itand I'm on the side of those people
that has trouble with the flavor.
That's not really an issue for me anymore.
This is part of, the experience.
(30:51):
If I don't want to, if you don'tlike the flavor of kava and you,
Dr, you still want to drink kava andyou want to, still partake, chill
it, put it in the refrigerator,
then drink your kava.
It will not do as much to your mouthand you will not taste as much.
you could probably ease yourselfinto kava a bit easier if it were
chilled And there's people that willargue with me say that's not true,
Douglas LaRose (31:12):
My one caveat to that advice if you're going to do that, sure
that you only chill it for an hour oran hour and a half if you leave your
Kava in the refrigerator for a night.
It's going to turn sour.
put ice in your Kava onceyou've made it to chill it.
Kava Kava turns so quick.
sometimes I make two or three a night.
And the third one I'll just be like,Ooh, I'll be shell faced that I
(31:37):
look at that third to know and I'mlike, oh my, how am I gonna do this?
and I'll put it in the refrigerator.
And even in the morning, it'salready starting to turn.
So just A word to the wise,a word from the wise, I don't
know how that saying works.
Like definitely.
If you're gonna do the refrigeratorroute, make sure that you're still
drinking it with like a 12 hour window.
Jimmy Price (31:55):
And there's gonna be people that would probably argue with that
because
there are people that leave their kava outfor quite a while, and I know people that
leave their kava in their refrigeratorfor a few days and it turns and it
takes on this weird silky texture to it
It takes on, it makes this weird texturewhere it's like it's easier to drink.
I don't even know what that is.
(32:16):
But that
threshold is, there for sure.
Douglas LaRose (32:20):
So here I just wanted to read some more from his chapter.
He says no formal event in Fijior Tonga occurs without Kava.
But mostly Kava is usedas a social lubricant.
It is not uncommon for men in Fijito spend an entire day around the
Kava Bowl shooting the as it were,as they consume upwards of 30 shells.
(32:40):
It's different in Vanuatu.
No one drinks Kava during the day.
Not even the Kava heads, the true addicts.
Okay, I'm gonna take issuewith the word addicts.
I'm gonna, let's pretendlike you didn't just
Jimmy Price (32:51):
no.
This is a podcast for Kava addicts.
You're fine.
Douglas LaRose (32:55):
yeah.
It's taken only around dusk andinto the early hours of the evening.
And more interestingly, I thoughtas I watched a man take his shell
and wander away from his companions,one drinks Kava alone in Vanuatu.
Interesting.
That's a narrative breaker.
Because we were always told thatyou should never drink Kava alone.
(33:16):
And I get it like they're at a nakamal,with your friends, but when you go off
to drink by yourself you're watching abanana tree or the sunset then you're
gulping the Kava back and gettingback together with your friends.
But, it's interesting because wealways, we're always told that no,
you should never drink Kava alone.
It's a, uh, it violatesa sacrosanct practice.
(33:39):
but I just think it's aninteresting anecdote there.
I want to read a section of thisbook because I think it's so funny.
he says I could carryonly two bowls at a time.
Returning from mine, I was met by aNi-Vanuatu man who was like, everyone
else clad in shorts and flip flops.
(34:00):
Hello.
He said, where are you from?
I've just arrived from America.
I said, ah.
He said, my name is Sam.
I thought you from Australia, not manypeople from America come to Vanuatu.
Only Peace Corps are you Peace Corps.
I admitted that I was not.
Tourist?
Not many tourist come to the nakamal.
I explained that I wasn't a touristeither, and that I was here in
(34:21):
his land because my wife had ajob here and I had followed her.
That's what I do.
I explained, I follow my wife around.
He thought that was very funny.
How many shells do you have?
This'll be my second.
full shells already.
He admitted a low whistle.
Maybe you'll have two day Kava.
What's two Day Kava?
I asked, that's when the Kavatalks to you for two days.
(34:43):
Like a hangover?
No.
He said not like a hangover,like a dream that doesn't end.
But in Fiji, I noted peoplecan drink 30 shells a day and
still be alert in the morning.
but this isn't Fiji Kava.
This is Vanuatu Kavafrom Pentecost Island.
It is the best in the world.
Very strong.
I asked him where his home island was.
(35:05):
I am from Pentecost Island, hesaid, and then he goes into this
description about how every island likecelebrates the Kava from their island.
It shows that Jay Martin probablydidn't go super deep on Kava in the
sense that he like studied it and theculvitars in the properties because.
Maybe he was drinking two day Kava, maybebecause if the guy said you'll get two day
(35:29):
Kava, maybe at that Kava bar, if this iswritten with accuracy to what was actually
said, maybe he was drinking two day Kava.
And that explains what happens later inthe chapter where he can't move his legs.
But I just thought it was interestingthat the Ni-Vanuatu man that he ran into
said oh, you've already had two shellsand like now you're going for a third.
You might get two de Kava.
Jimmy Price (35:48):
Was that a warning?
It could have been.
Go ahead.
douglas--bud-bro-_1_01-27-2024_193650: what's interesting too is I remember in (35:52):
undefined
the early two thousands there was thisrumor that we weren't getting the best
Kava, like we were getting like basicallythe Kava that the Ni-Vanuatu didn't want,
and that there was this medicinal Kava.
That was, we didn't have like accessto all this information back then that
(36:15):
there was this medicinal Kava that wasused for rituals and mystical traditions.
we were never gonna get itbecause of the Kava Act.
And the Kava Act prevented it from beingexported because it was only supposed
to be used for religious reasons.
Do you remember that?
Track 1 (36:30):
I don't remember that one specifically.
It took its height in 2014 It started.
When, Andrew of Noble Kavawent to Vanuatu, filmed Dr.
Lebo talking about two day Kava and howit wasn't the Kava that we wanted to
drink, and that's when this whole thingstarted that are we getting noble Kava?
(36:54):
This, everyone says it's nobleKava, but how do we know?
And then he even gives a wayto test in that video, like
if your Kava was noble or not.
we're gonna run out andbuy some acetone right now.
We're test all the kavas.
But it turns out there are somethat are so subtle that you need.
A laboratory piece of equipmentto tell if you do the aceto test.
(37:15):
you could not tell whether theyare today or noble with your eyes.
it can tell you if your Kava iswildly bad, if you put your Kava
in acetone and shake it up, 30milliliters, acetone 10 grams of Kava.
Shake that up, let it settle overnightand look at the super natin or the layer
at the top, and you'll see if it's purelynoble, it'll just be a golden color.
(37:41):
But if it's a wild kava or really gnarlytwo day kava, it'll be either red or
I've had one that was black, but thatsort of thing tells you that you should
and this, it's a good field test forexporters to see, that's a really quick
way of knowing if your Kava is, good orif you should probably test it further.
(38:01):
If it doesn't come out the way youwant it, it just means it needs to
be tested, by an actual HPLC or toH-T-P-L-C something that's a lab
grade equipment that can actuallytell you what's in the Kava But
that was a big point in that whole.
Debate on two-day, And from myexperience with two-Day Kaaba that I
know was the isa or Madang Short thatwas brought from Papua New Guinea
(38:25):
and planted in, in okay, here's thestory on isa, and this is ISA Plant in
America is not, it was not American.
Dr.
Lebo brought a sample for his herbariumhere in Hawaii It was an interesting
plant because its genetics were differentthan all the other Kava plants, but
it broke, quote unquote broke out ofthe botanical specimen library they
(38:50):
had and became a commercial crop.
Yeah, it grows faster.
You can climb it like a tree.
It's huge.
Douglas LaRose (38:57):
you done that?
Have you
Jimmy Price (38:58):
I've seen one in Ed's property that I think I could have
climbed, but it's a different plantwith different genetics from a
different part of the world that gotplaced in Hawaii that, did really
well in terms of its survival.
So naturally it's everywhere.
And that's the kava that I consumedmicronized for about eight months.
(39:23):
I would drink about a tablespoon a day.
two or three tablespoonsmixed into one cup of water.
It was terrible.
would
drink
Douglas LaRose (39:31):
which one were you drinking?
Which vendor?
Jimmy Price (39:33):
It was Hawaii.
kava Center, and
douglas--bud-bro-_1_01-27-2024_193650: Yeah, I remember that. (39:37):
undefined
Jimmy Price (39:38):
the other Kavas were awesome.
he sold micronized kavas.
Douglas LaRose (39:41):
Oh, no, he sold medium grain.
Yeah.
I think maybe in the early daysthey sold them in like coffee bags.
Jimmy Price (39:46):
all coffee bags.
I remember that.
But I don't ever remember straining everone of it's kavas, but that could be on
me.
But yeah he that I drank Isa for abouteight months, and it made my back bleed.
Like it made my
skin split bleed made mehave weird sort of symptoms.
and the only thing, like it didn't.
(40:07):
It harmed me in the way, like thatit was uncomfortable, but in terms
of physical, it didn't actually hurtme, but it I think what it boiled
down to was, as an industry, wewanna put our best foot forward.
And with a Kava like that, it's noteven really, yeah, it's Kava, but
it's not, it may not be Piper Mathum.
(40:28):
It's got such weak, it's genetics areoff the charts in terms of comparing
it to Kava from anywhere else.
So it's a strange one.
It doesn't mean it's not drinkable.
it's just a strange one.
And I think it's genetics are interestingand it's when one of the only cultivars
that I've made a kava effect on mysubstack on in terms of its, people always
(40:48):
being so like, interested, what is Isa?
It's a cultivar that wasbrought to Hawaii by Dr.
Dr.
Lebo and that it escaped and has been usedas a cultivated crop there, and it doesn't
create seeds or reproduce naturally.
So it's still it's still Kava,but it's just a weird one.
(41:09):
but it was my only, in, myonly known introduction or
consumption of a non noble Kava.
But in terms of some of these vendorsback in that day they had some
kavas come out that were horrific.
They horrific.
They would make you visit thebathroom and throw up every time
you it,
Douglas LaRose (41:28):
yeah.
Jimmy Price (41:29):
mean, I.
It was a
time
when we didn't know, even thevendors at that time didn't know.
we were all discovering at the sametime what we needed as a industry to
make sure that we were putting ourbest foot forward for the customer.
I think that was just too strongfor a first introduction and making
somebody sick and something like that.
(41:49):
But yeah, if drank kava for a longtime and you wanna try Isa, try it.
It's not kill you, but it's not agame changer and it's not gonna.
Fix the world, and they'replanting it in Florida.
I think that's awesome in terms ofhaving a reminder of how sacred Kava is.
I wish I could grow a Kava plant here.
I would just have it justto know and appreciate
(42:11):
the plan itself, truly.
And that's the
I
see the thing in Florida, is that peopleare able to appreciate the plan itself.
And there's a lot of, there's a lot ofdebate and controversy around that, but
Douglas LaRose (42:23):
I have one in my window.
Jimmy Price (42:24):
oh, nice.
Douglas LaRose (42:25):
Yeah.
O like overlooking Baltimore city
and, you It's still alive.
I've had it for four monthsand, or maybe three months.
time means in strangeways, still very healthy.
Was gonna, I was gonna say alsothat, just to connect it back to
this book that Isa, in Vanuatuthey would call it Two Day Kava.
that's the actual name of the Kava is
(42:46):
T-U-D-E-I two day Kava.
That's the name that theyhave for Isa in Vanuatu.
And when you drink it, if you drinkKava on a regular basis and you're
drinking Noble Kava and you get Isa.
You're pretty much gonnaknow that you're drinking Isa
when the last time you had Isa was,but when you make Isa or two de Kava,
(43:09):
it has this like kind of thin texture
to it's like very peppery
Jimmy Price (43:13):
Pine.
Douglas LaRose (43:13):
Cutting the flavor of grass cuttings.
Jimmy Price (43:16):
Flake like you're drinking grass and pine cones mixed together.
Douglas LaRose (43:19):
the pine cones That's a good description.
you're gonna notice that theeffects are more stimulating.
For me at least, I don't know thatpeople are different, but like I
find that the effects to be morestimulating and they stick around longer.
Um, and like the next day you mightbe dragging your feet a little bit.
Which is why I don't like it.
Jimmy Price (43:37):
Yeah.
You wanna drink kava and then when youwake up in the morning, be all right.
And honestly, even noble kava can carryover into the next day with how I feel.
But I'm not
complaining about it.
I don't complain about that.
I like that.
It's like I'm a little bit.
The next day as I go to work and
Douglas LaRose (43:54):
Oh, absolutely.
Jimmy Price (43:55):
I think it's great.
Douglas LaRose (43:56):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I'm celebrated around my office asbeing the chillest person and the most
compassionate and kind and mindful personbecause, I'm really cooking myself up here
Track 1 (44:08):
Dirt bag.
Douglas LaRose (44:09):
but a lot of it has to do with the Kava.
I
can concentrate and I can do a reallygood job at my office without getting
stressed out Because of Kava and I don'thave to be drinking it during the day.
I think it's a cumulativeeffect on my personality
from drinking so much Kava Thataura of calmness around people,
Jimmy Price (44:30):
Yeah, it's a stark difference in your life lifestyle.
I'm glad I found the kavasseurLike it changed everything
about how I approach my life.
Kava gives me space, it gives me thistime to reflect on myself without being
overly critical I can be constructiveabout myself and it gives me that ability.
(44:53):
this book he covers in his account of it,I think everyone should read Some people
can be like, oh yeah, I've been there.
Okay, yeah, this guy knows, This is real.
He uses some interesting languageBut I thought it was a very
excellent read and anybody that
Kaaba should read that.
Douglas LaRose (45:11):
I do have one more topic I wanted to discuss we wrap up.
Okay.
So when he gets to this section, I'llask you first, when he describes how
Kava felt like on that first encounterin Vanuatu he had to get carried off.
have you ever this experience withKava, like the way he describes it?
Jimmy Price (45:35):
I've fallen on my face one time, but yes, it's possible.
And in Vanuatu it's not hard.
Douglas LaRose (45:42):
So maybe what I'll do is I'll read this to close it out This is,
these are the words hit a young Douglas.
And basically turnedme into The Kavasseur.
So, because I wanted thisexperience, I don't think I've ever
had a Kava experience like this.
So here we go.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna read thisand then we can close it out.
So he says he, so they're at thethey're at the Knock 'em mall,
(46:04):
and he's sitting next to hisnew friend Sam who's a Natu man.
And, Dirk is also there, who's his friend.
And then there are two wives.
All right, I'm gonnaread this little excerpt.
I on the bench next to Sam, my brother,who's not his brother, by the way.
It's, this is his new NevonWaze friend smoked a cigarette.
(46:28):
So sweet.
This tobacco.
Very heavy to lift this cigarette.
I am.
I thought I am here.
There others, such good people.
There are my brothers.
There is no time.
No such thing.
There is now, and it goes forever.
On and on backwards too, to the past.
(46:49):
So heavy.
This cigarette, another shell.
A voice.
Whose voice?
Dirks a good man.
Dirk.
He is my brother.
Yes.
I said, let us fly on.
Cannot move feet.
Why do you not move feet?
We'll speak to legs.
Legs need help too.
Push up with arms.
(47:10):
Yes.
Standing now.
Must get from here to there.
Legs not moving.
Why will you not move Legs?
Ah, happy now.
No need to move legs here.
Is Dirk a good man?
Dirk?
Thank you.
Tomas.
to speak.
Shall stop speaking.
Here is the kava.
There are the lights, stars.
My brothers good.
Kava, very smooth.
(47:31):
Can sit down now have missed bench.
Jimmy Price (47:34):
Oops.
Douglas LaRose (47:35):
Here is the dirt.
Shall rest here.
Dirty.
This dirt.
Ashes to ashes.
Dust to dust.
I am one with the dirt.
is this lifting?
Me?
Why there is Sam?
Hello Sam, can you hear me?
Yes you can.
We are brothers.
Thank you Sam.
There's my wife.
I love her.
So she'll tell her when mouth works.
She's speaking.
(47:56):
Go.
She says no.
Cannot go.
Cannot move.
Legs stay.
We must.
Sounds like Yoda.
Right there.
There is the moon.
I see you Moon.
Beautiful moon.
I'm watching you.
Do you see me?
I am one with you.
Still feel very heavy.
So heavy.
Shall sleep.
Now, who is this carrying me.
Hello Sam.
Hello Dirk.
My brothers do not carry me.
Just let me lie here.
(48:17):
I'll be one with the dirtworld is moving much too fast.
Lights, darkness, lights again.
Many more lights.
Am inside a car.
Do not like cars.
Here's my wife, here's my house.
No.
Do not turn on lights.
I can totally relate to that.
Lights must go off.
Yes, the bed.
Good idea.
Shall just lie here for a moment.
Am dreaming very strange dreams.
(48:40):
Would like to wake up now.
Cannot wake up.
that.
Jimmy Price (48:44):
I think my
favorite part of that is Iwill be one with the dirt.
Douglas LaRose (48:48):
Yeah.
Jimmy Price (48:49):
we can all agree that when we drink kava, we become one with the earth.
Douglas LaRose (48:54):
Yeah.
didn't think about it that way.
Jimmy Price (48:56):
Okay hey, it was a great
Douglas LaRose (48:57):
Good stuff.
Track 1 (48:58):
Yep.
And I
fully encourage everyone toread this book and to enjoy this
experience thanks for joining in.
Doug, you can sign us off
douglas--bud-bro-_1_01-27-2024_193650: like all good things this episode (49:07):
undefined
of the Kava Lounge must come toan end we hope you enjoyed it.
please do check out this book and ifyou get a chance, read the whole thing.
enjoy your Kava and bula ofthe hula and see you next time.
Track 1 (49:20):
Bula.
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