August 31, 2025 • 32 mins
America is at a crossroads. In this urgent episode, It’s That Part and The Logical Lawyer team up with two retired LAPD lieutenants to explore how politics, policing, and power collide in ways that endanger our freedoms. From unconstitutional ICE raids to dangerous policy shifts, the stakes have never been higher. With wisdom, logic, and personal stories from the front lines, this episode shines a light on the hidden forces shaping our communities and what must happen next to protect justice and accountability.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Coming up on this editionof the Joint Podcast,
but, uh, something that'skinda a little levity.
We had these jackets that were made, uh,and on the, uh, jackets, uh, we had it.
It
doesn't say ice does it?
No.
No.
Oh, okay.
I'm just checking.
Then we would have to wear amask then, so we don't wear mask.
(00:22):
But, uh, anyway.
You had these jackets and they were made.
And um, the brand of thejacket is Eddie Bauer.
And, um, and on the jackets we hadSouth Bri homicide emblem on over
the chest plate of that jacket.
So we respond to the scene.
We're doing an investigation.
It's a, it's a gang shooting and.
Uh, we have one young lady out thereand she's, uh, dating another lady.
(00:45):
They have an apartment there andshe's just raising all kind of sand at
scene and she's not being cooperative.
Um, we later get the video, see thatshe was there, but she swore she wasn't.
We talked to her research, her residence,and at the end of the investigation
we're, we're trying to leave.
And, uh, she keeps hollering out.
Hey, Eddie.
(01:05):
And so we're trying to figureout who she's talking to.
She says, Hey, Eddie, youhear me talking to you?
We were leaving and so we'relooking at each other and say.
Hey, Eddie Boo.
Eddie Booard.
Can you talk?
Yeah.
That's your name on your jacket.
(01:30):
At the intersection of logic and truth.
This is the Logical Lawyer, and it'sthat part, exploring legal, social, and
cultural issues with insight, clarity, andpurpose, truth and logic, sharp and clear.
Insight and hope we bring it here
(01:56):
where truth needs logic in action.
It's the Logical lawyerand it's that part.
You're listening to a jointepisode of The Logical Lawyer
and the It's that part podcast.
I'm Jesse Lee Hammonds and I'm herewith the Logical Lawyer himself.
(02:16):
Attorney Bernie Brown.
Now we come at these issues and concernsfrom different backgrounds professionally,
but with a shared commitment to clarity,logic, lawfulness truth in every
fact together with real conversation.
So Bernie.
(02:37):
You've worked inside the, legalsystem, as a prosecuting attorney.
In a few moments, we're gonnabring on some guests, but before
we do that, could you brieflyframe what's legally at stake here?
Well, I, I must say, Jesse, I'mreally concerned, uh, I'm concerned
about the state of our democracy.
(02:59):
I mean.
We have a president who's issuing ordersthat usurp con Congressional authority.
I mean, he's taking over, uh, thepowers of state and local governments
to police their own, uh, citizenry.
I mean, it's crazy.
I'm sorry.
(03:20):
He's taking away free speech, man.
Can you believe that?
Uh, uh, by, uh, suppressing, uh, incolleges and institutions and, and, and
taking their money, their funds away.
Uh, it, it's, it's terrible.
And, and then, uh, the, these sweepingsearches, these detentions of people
(03:44):
on the basis of, uh, of saying thatthere may be illegal, illegal citizens.
Uh, or aliens I should say, buthe's doing these mass sweeps.
It appears to be that he'sjust sweeping Hispanics.
So I, I'm really concerned about thefuture by democracy when a president
(04:07):
can take over authority, state andlocal, uh, authority, uh, when he
can usurp congressional authority.
Uh, when he can take away citizensand non-citizens, all Americans
constitutional rights, I mean, uh,the future of our democracy, the
(04:29):
future of our democracy is at stake.
Here.
At stake is it's a worrisomesituation as to what will come in
the months, in the years ahead of us.
And you know what I say to that?
It's that part.
Exactly.
(04:50):
And, and because it's one thing to see allof these things on paper or read them in a
social media post, but it's quite another.
To see it on the ground right before youreyes where the rubber meets the road.
So that's why we invited two seasonedvoices with firsthand experience,
(05:11):
both retired lieutenants of theLos Angeles Police Department
right here in California.
So let's welcome Byron Roberts andOtis Dobin, just to kick it off.
Um, and we were talking aboutjust a little bit before
you came on, brother Byron.
There a lot of, experiences,that, that you've had.
(05:35):
You three for that matter have had,good, bad, indifferent, over your
time in, your particular positionthere, could you share, you know.
One or two moments, of that, somethingthat, and we're not necessarily looking
for something that's altogether bad.
'cause I know that you were inhomicide, coming out, right?
(05:57):
Uh, yes.
I was.
So, every time you went outon a call, it wasn't good
or it wasn't,
or it wasn't?
Uh, well, not necessarily the best of,um, times for people that you're going
out there for, but there was momentsof, um, levity when you're out there.
(06:19):
Uh,
When you got the call, how did you prepareyourself or is there a preparation?
When you are going out there,how does the call come in and
then how do you dispatch on that?
Well, um, there's a couple of ways there.
Uh, sometimes you're at home.
There are times thatyou'll be in the office.
Um, most of the time when you're inoffice, uh, you will hear it come out
(06:42):
on the radio, some type of incident.
Uh, where someone is down and, uh,the RA is responding, and then you
probably get a call from that division.
And our watch commander's probablyprobably giving you some, uh,
basic information about the,uh, victim there at scene and,
uh, whether they're down or not.
And, uh, whether they, uh, rescueambulance has transported them
(07:04):
or whether or not they're notgonna be transported because.
Pronounce that scene.
Um, when you're at home,uh, almost similar.
You get a phone call, uh uh, in themiddle of the night or middle of
the day, whatever the case may be.
If you're off and, and after you get yourpreliminary information about the victim
location, you're calling your detectivesupervisor and you're notifying the
(07:27):
detective supervisor that's responsiblefor being on call at that time, and he
will then notify his team and their.
They're making a point to rushout the scene and be there first.
You don't want to be there before them.
Mm-hmm.
But
you want them to start working and, um,there's no reason for me to rush and be
there because they're the worker bees.
I'm just there to manage this scene.
(07:47):
Is it just
one lieutenant on scene?
Uh, from my division, yes.
Uh, I worked South Bureau homicide.
So, to give you an idea, when youworked South Bureau Homicide, you
are working at Bureau of Homicide.
You're responsible forfour different divisions.
Harvard Division,Southwest, Southeast in 77.
And so, um, in that particular case,they may have their personnel there at
(08:12):
scene when you arrive, which would besometimes a patrol supervisor if you
responded at a scene or sometimes even.
Patrol captain with the, withthe, uh, responding units.
But in that particular case, um,I'm just the lieutenant for the
investigative detail that's responsiblefor investigating that particular death.
(08:33):
Um, but, uh, somethingthat's kind, a little levity.
We had these jackets that were made, uh,and on the, uh, jackets, uh, we had it.
It
doesn't say ice, does it?
No.
No.
Oh,
okay.
I'm just checking.
Then we would've to wear a maskthen, so we don't wear a mask.
But, uh, anyway, you, you had thesejackets and they were made and, um,
(08:56):
the brand of the jacket is Eddie Bauer.
And, uh, and on the jackets we hadsouth real homicide emblem on over
the chest plate of that jacket.
So we responded.
The scene, we're doing an investigation.
It's a, it's a gang shooting and.
Uh, we have one young lady out thereand she's, uh, dating another lady.
They have an apartment there andshe's just raising all kind of sand at
(09:18):
scene and she's not being cooperative.
Um, we later get the video, see thatshe was there, but she swore she wasn't.
We talked to her research, herresidence, and at the end of the
investigation we're, we're trying toleave, and, uh, she keeps hollering out.
Hey, Eddie.
And so we're trying to figureout who she's talking to.
(09:39):
He says, Hey, Eddie, youhear me talking to you?
We leaving.
And so we're looking at each othersaying, Hey, Eddie, do Eddie, do y'all.
Can you?
She says, yeah, that'syour name on your jacket.
Okay.
Oh my goodness.
(10:01):
She had a good laugh out of it.
She was, uh, you know, she wassignificantly later on when she calmed,
once she calmed down to help us out.
But at first she wasjust, uh, definitely mad.
She, she was a victim.
Uh, no.
She was, she was definitely almosta, a, uh, participating witness.
Oh Lord.
You know, so, um, you know, of coursethey say they're not there, but then
(10:25):
you look at the video and you see who'sthere and you see that she was one of the
people that allowed one of the guys torun into her house and out the back door.
So,
um mm-hmm.
Weird times.
That is, that is Brother Otis.
What do, you got anything now,Inglewood, sister, city of la you know,
(10:45):
all of us, all of it in LA County.
Anything different?
Oh,
well, Otis was LAPD.
Oh, you were LAPD as well.
LAPD, yeah.
Oh, okay.
I was thinking Inglewood.
I'm sorry.
My bad.
No, no problem.
Well, um, it's Did you and, and,uh, uh, Byron know each other then?
Well, I know Byron said, said he knew you.
(11:07):
Well, this is my first meeting of Byron.
I didn't have any knowledge of Byronat the time, but I did 38 years
and, and to give you some backgroundas far as a lieutenant, I worked
a number of jobs as a lieutenant.
I was detective, commanding officer,Pacific detective at the time.
I left there and I went to robbery,homicide, and I had the robbery
(11:27):
section, bank robbery section.
Then I left there and went to alsoinvolved shooting section as a lieutenant.
And um, so I saw a lot of stuffas a lieutenant as far as crime
goes, as far as serious crimeswhere we had the specialized
detective Handleman in the crimes.
I was just wondering, youknow, 'cause were you guys ever
(11:48):
skied out there in the field?
As I know, I got to, as a prosecutor,we got to go on a ride along.
And I went on a ride along and they, wewere, I think with the sergeant and the
sergeant said, oh, they got a call thatthere was a homicide and a gang shooting.
And they told me, they said, oh, don'tworry every, all the other officers who
(12:09):
get there before us and then we'll comelater and you got nothing to worry about.
And then all of it, we arrived there.
And no one else was.
There we're the first officerson the scene and they somehow
pulling out their guns.
And I'm all, I'm duckingunderneath the seat.
So were you guys ever afraid?
Were there any scary moments?
(12:31):
Well, not, not as a lieutenant ora sergeant, uh, when I was a police
officer, that might have been some fearbecause the police officer who was first
responding to those type of seriouscause, and it can be kind of nourishing.
Unnerving at the time thatyou're responding once you get
there to handle the situation.
But once I made sergeant and promotedup to lieutenant, I responded the
(12:53):
scenes and I can't recall beingafraid of anything because my
officers were there before me and had.
Uh, handled the scene and allthe fear and danger generally was
taken care of before I got there.
Oh, okay.
All righty.
Well, that's, that's comfort.
What about you, Byron?
Any, any, any instances where youwere like, your nerves were just
(13:19):
going through the floor, like, oh, no.
Uh, can I
handle this Well, again, uh, I, I gotdegree with, uh, uh, Lieutenant Dobin.
Uh, it's hard for me to call him Otisbecause he's a lieutenant when I was
there, so it's been a number of years.
But anyway, yes, I mean, there'salways a certain amount of concern.
(13:39):
Uh, but again, as, uh, uh, Lieutenant Dobawas saying it's, it's for a lieutenant or
a sergeant, a lot of that fear is removed.
Because, uh, once you arriveat scene, it should be secure.
Uh, as a matter of fact, there aretimes as a lieutenant at the homicide, I
will respond and, uh, you know, they'reall tied up with the scene and I see
(14:02):
something like, we need some flares, orI need some more additional tape, and.
Everybody's tied up.
So I try to do it and they'rerun and take the tape from it
and say, oh, no, LT, we got it.
You know?
And so it's a lot of reverence,uh, for you out there in the scene.
But your, your focus is generallyspeaking on making sure that you
understand what's going on, makingsure that you have whatever resources
(14:22):
that are necessary for that.
Seen and then more, more than likely,you're trying to also provide an update.
Uh, so you, so you guys never had to
do a use of force.
I'm sorry to cut it.
No use of force.
You've never had to beat upanybody or shoot anybody or kill
anybody or anything like that.
That's terrible,
isn't it?
We, we don't beat up people.
(14:45):
We, we make sure we takepeople into custody.
Oh, okay.
That was, that was before my time.
I dunno about people.
Well, that, that's proper.
That's anything wrong with that?
I mean, you gotta get 'em in the car.
Well, well, the
current leader of this work of thisUnited States, he says that officers can
(15:07):
do anything they want to, to suspect.
So, uh, I would imaginesomething that's gonna occur.
Yeah.
What,
what do you think about that?
About the, the administrationsending in National Guard, they
send them into Washington, DC.
I mean, they aren'tqualified to do police work.
Uh, they, they're trainedfor that, are they?
(15:28):
Or
No, they're not.
You know, if you really give thoughtto it, like, I have my own personal
thoughts on that, and it allrelates to this guy that's leading
this country's being, trying tobe a dictator and he's referenced
himself, uh, uh, or be an example.
(15:49):
To other dictators in the world andhe's sending his troops in to do things
that's not necessarily be done, buthe's trying to show use of strength.
But all of that is not necessary, andespecially in Washington DC And one of
the concerns I have, as you know, themayor is female black, the chief of
police, female black, as far as I know.
(16:11):
And.
What's the use of what he's doing?
It's just a political, racist eventthat he's involving himself in, and
that man is racist from head to toe.
What do you think, Byron?
What do you think, Jesse?
I'll defer to Byron in this case.
(16:33):
I was gonna say, don't get me started.
It's, it's, it's Molly interesting that.
Both the female mayor of Los Angelesand the female mayor of DC are
being challenged by this male white.
It's not a coincidence.
No.
Um, there are things that we were taughtwhen I came on the job and I came on
(16:54):
after the Rodney King incident, but oneof the things that was really driven
home with racial profiling, uh, ice, isdefinitely not following those standards.
Uh, their, their purposefor stopping people.
Uh, the only reasonable suspicionthey have is that they're here
(17:15):
illegally and that they're Hispanic.
And, uh, most of the Hispanics that youspeak with will tell you that they're
targeting dark skinned Hispanics.
Uh, not the, not the fair skinnedHispanics, but the dark skinned Hispanics.
And so now.
You have a lot of lawlessnessbecause you have individuals that
have no accountability becausethey're covering up their face.
(17:36):
Uh, you don't know, uh, who they are.
And so now you have them gettingengaged in uses of forces, uh,
traffic accidents where they'restopping cars with their vehicles.
There, uh, even reported on the news lastnight about someone sh having a shots
fired at them, and I would know thatthat would be something that at LAPD,
(17:57):
uh, Lieutenant Dobin, his people wouldspawn out for a use of force investigation
or an OIS officer involved shooting.
I don't see any of those things happening.
Even taking people off the street, out oftheir cars and, you know, leaving their
property, their, their vending machinesthere on scene and they're not impounded.
So it's like, it's, it's thingsthat, um, that it goes against
(18:20):
everything that I was taught.
Uh, and as far as the FBI and DEA,and I've never been one of them, I've
worked as a federal investigator,but not for the Federal Bill,
federal Bureau of Investigation.
Um, a lot of those guys make, uh, theytake years before they make an arrest.
Uh, they're not used to work in thestreets, so the tactics that they
(18:41):
utilize is most likely different.
And then you have to dealwith the communication factor.
How do you communicate with the, the, uh.
Enforcement agency ofthat particular area.
And so from the friends that I dostill have on the job working, my
understanding is that they have calledthe watch commander office and they
just say, we're in your area, butthey don't tell you exactly where.
(19:01):
And so my concern would besometimes, maybe even a blue on blue
shooting because if someone callsin and says that someone has a.
Covered face and they'reattacking someone.
You, you rolling in there unlessthey're readily identifiable.
Some are in their iceuniforms, some are not.
Some are in dark color uniforms.
So it's multiple agencies, multiplepeople, people in the same area
(19:25):
leads to a multiple problems andsometimes some, some tragic ending.
Uh, one of the things they justreported is one guy ran from the
Home Depot in Monrovia and ran acrossthe freeway and got hit by a car.
But I says they wasn't chasing him,
but he, he was running from a
ghost or something.
(19:45):
But the fear that they're, that they'reputting into to the community, um,
you can make a consensual contactand you can develop your PC or your
reasonable cause once you make ana, a consensual encounter with them.
But they don't want a Concentra encounter.
They just wanna run out of vansand run out of trucks and grab
people and figure it out later whenthey get 'em back to the station.
(20:08):
And so it puts professional lawenforcement back hundreds of years,
and that's the concern that I have.
There are a lot of people thattake pride in the work that
we do and how we do the work.
We've come a long way in law enforcement,especially in the city of Los Angeles.
But, um, they're, they're notfollowing the standards that we,
(20:29):
that we've been trained and, and thatwe're held responsible for falling
because, and that's interesting.
Don't follow those standards.
You arrest, you will be, uh.
A complaint filed against you andinvestigated and there's, I just don't
see the liability for them at all.
And that's an interesting point.
You said that word trained, soLAPD is trained on, uh, when
(20:50):
they can lawfully detain someone.
Um, on, uh, individual rights, uh,people's citizens, individual rights
against unreasonable searches and seizuresand, uh, when warrants are required.
I'm assuming you receive all this trainingon the on Citizens' constitutional rights.
(21:12):
And what you can and cannot do,uh, to infringe upon those rights.
That's true.
And LAPD, uh, I have to say, is verygood at training people, training
their employees, especially the policeofficers, and they continue to do it.
When I was there.
And they train the uniform officers.
They train the detectives, they givethem the rules of laws pertain to arrest
(21:38):
the people, the detention of people.
So they, they are very well trainedand updated on current issues regarding
law enforcement or taking peopleinto custody or people's rights.
They are very well.
Updated and trained on that constantly.
They're, that's one good thing about LEPD.
They're good in training.
(21:59):
Uh, let me, can I makea comment about ice?
You know, and it, it goes back,it put me in mind of, before I
was born, uh, during, uh, worldWar II, when Hitler was in power.
Hmm.
What ICE is doing is like the Nazis didas a quarter of Hitler to go out and
(22:20):
round up all the Jews, and that's whatour, this guy that's leading this country
now is having ice through that, roundup all the Hispanics and dark colored,
uh, dark skinned Hispanics or blacks.
But one thing I haveto say about the Nazis.
They didn't have their faces covered.
(22:41):
These people that's doing that now inthe United States, they're cowardly.
They have to walk around with facecovered, not strong enough, and
the strength to present themselves.
Who they are, truly who they are.
Why do they have to hide behind a mask?
But to me that's cow relate and whatthey're doing to these people is
(23:01):
unjust the way they've being treated.
And camps like the Naziand Hil did to the Jews.
Well, you know, the Cola
Snake Klan, they hid behind, man.
I was just getting ready to say that theytraded in the, uh, the hoods were masks.
Yeah, you are, you're right about that.
But what's going on now?
(23:22):
Put me in mind.
Uh, before I was born, what the Jews,what the Germans did to the Jews, and
it's similar to what they did then.
It's going on now in this country.
And it seems like, like yousaid, uh, and also Byron said.
That, uh, they aren't trainedfor this type of thing.
(23:43):
Uh, it, it, it does not appear thatthey are trained about constitutional
rights, probable cause warrants the,the legal constitutional basis for
detentions and searches and seizure.
They're just throwing that all out.
Just forget all of that.
They're just going in wholesaleand, and doing what they wanna
do and they're apparently, rightnow they're getting away with it.
(24:05):
You, you know what I wonder on that pointright there, Bernie, are they actually
officers or are they one percenters?
Uh, you know, uh, uh, the ProudBoys or somebody like that, that
that's, that's cosplaying orwhatever are, are they really
officers do, do we, do we know that?
How do we verify that?
Well, right now there's noaccountability because, um.
(24:30):
Uh, you have a person that squares a mask.
They've been given quotas to go out andget a certain amount of people a day.
And, um, when you don't haveaccountability, because you
don't have a, a name tag on your.
On your jacket or, or your shirt.
You have no badge that's visible.
(24:51):
Your face is covered.
That's when you have lawlessness.
Mm-hmm.
Because when I worked LAPD, and I'm prettysure when, uh, Lieutenant Divine worked
LAPD, we have family, we have children.
We don't want to go out there and doanything that's gonna be embarrassing
to our family where they will seeus on the news doing something
that's in inappropriate or, or.
(25:13):
Criminal In this particular case,these guys have masks over their
face, so they have no accountability.
Uh, they're not concerned about what theydo because they have basically, you know,
they're, they can hide their identity.
So when you're hiding your identity,you're not concerned about your
actions, embarrassing your family, your,your, your profession, you work in.
(25:37):
The agency you work for,things of that sort.
Then you're gonna have peoplegoing out, chasing people, doing
things, being heavy handed becausethere's no accountability there.
Um, and so now we're having people, uh,two incidents that I'm aware of, the guy
running across the freeway now, the otherguy that was at the marijuana location
(26:00):
in Oxnard allegedly fell out of a window.
He, he died, right?
And so, and now the other daywe have them taking shots at
people that are in the car.
'cause allegedly the cartried to drive and hit them.
But the video that's beingseen, you don't see that.
And so we have, uh, things thatare accountable in, in, uh, in law
(26:23):
enforcement now, such as body-wornvideos, digital in-car videos.
And at first we were resistantto it, but now as an agency.
We can't live without it becauseit's, it's basically everyone has a
camera, so you need to have a cameraof your own to more or less verify
what you're doing and also makesure that the complaints sometimes
(26:44):
that are lodge, sometimes are, are.
Frivolous, uh, falsebecause it didn't occur.
If it didn't see it on thevideo, it didn't occur.
And so these individuals justdon't have any accountability.
They don't have any body-worn video.
They don't have anydigital inquire videos.
They're covering their face.
They have no identity.
(27:04):
You don't see a name tag on 'em.
You don't see a badge.
Who, who who, who knows if they'relaw enforcement, as you said before,
we see they have uniforms that setice, some say some other agency.
But the reality of it is Iworked, uh, LAPD 29 years, I
did briefings on television.
My face was seen.
(27:25):
It doesn't matter about social media.
If you're doing the right thing, youhave no reason to hide your identity.
But when you're doing somethingthat's not correct, when you're
doing things that are fake and false,
that's why you're hiding your identity.
But what would we expect fromsomeone who release spellings?
(27:47):
That attacked other police at theUS Capitol on January the sixth, and
then turned around and released them.
But Holler, he's the law enforcementpresident, so I guess the Capitol
Police wasn't law enforcement
and, and he's also a felon.
Yes, well
imagine this, uh, it's notthe same only in America,
(28:09):
only in the USA, but the, ourgovernor's trying to fight, uh, Newsom.
He's brought this Posse Kamataact, you know, saying that.
Uh, that they, they, that they're,that they've infringed upon the
limits through the use of the militaryin, in domestic law enforcement.
That they've gone overboard, thatthey've gone beyond, uh, their legal,
(28:34):
uh, authority by, uh, descendingin the troops into LA to take over.
Uh, you know, that, that seems liketo me that that causes a lot of
confusion and a lot of disorganization.
And especially when LAPD didn'teven ask them, didn't want, doesn't
want them, doesn't need them.
(28:55):
And the, what we heard was these troopswere just standing around doing nothing.
I mean, they're supposedly protecting, uh,the ICE ages, but there's nobody you know.
So it's really almost.
I guess it's not comical 'cause it'sso serious and it's now some people
(29:15):
believe that they're just, thatthe president is setting the stage,
you know, that he's testing thegrounds for when he, later, when he.
Uh, initiates actions, uh, to, to, uh,instigate or initiate an authoritarian
state where he proceeds to try tobecome, should we say a dictator.
(29:40):
Uh, and, and, and so he's practicingby sending, sending in these troops
to see what he can get away with.
I don't know what youguys think about that.
Is, is that just anotherconspiracy theory?
I wouldn't say it'scompar conspiracy theory.
Bernie, I would've to agree with you.
Uh, this guy is testing the water tosee what he can get away with, and
(30:02):
he's getting away with it right now.
And this Supreme Court isnot doing anything too.
To assist American public indefending the American public from
this, this outrageous acts, this guyis permitting or allowed to occur.
That's going to do it for thisjoint episode of The Logical Lawyer
(30:22):
and the It's That Part podcast.
A big thanks again to our guest forjoining us and to you for listening.
Now, if you'd like to hear more fromattorney Bernie Brown, who's also
an author, he authored the book.
A prosecutor's analysis of personalsupernatural experiences, which is
a collection of fascinating storiesawaiting your verdict on whether the
(30:45):
experiences you read were fact fiction,fabrication, or fraud with stories
like the pastor and the Evil Force.
People who swear they saw a ghosttormented by demons or simply delusional
and many more on Amazon search,Bernie Brown, a prosecutor's analysis.
(31:05):
And it'll pop right up foryou, available in paperback and
in digital format on Kindle.
You can also check out the LogicalLawyer Podcast, where you can listen
to this episode again and shareit with your friends and family
and tell them to do the same.
Okay.
You can also connect withbernie@thelogicalattorney.me.
(31:25):
Yep.
The Logical attorney.me,and you've got him.
And for more episodes of the, it's ThatPart podcast, you can listen directly at.
It's that part.com where you'll also findan embedded player for both of our shows.
Again, we'd love for you to sharethese conversations with your family
and your friends and coworkers.
(31:47):
Leave a comment and do stay connectedwith the both of us, won't you?
So until the next time, asBernie would say, don't do crime.
Be aware and stay awake.
You've been listening to the LogicalLawyer and the, it's that part joint.
Podcast
(32:09):
at the intersection of logic and truth.
This is the Logical Lawyer and it's thatpart exploring legal, social, and cultural
issues with insight, clarity and purpose.
Purpose, truth andsharp and clear insight.
And.
(32:35):
Where truth, logic, in action,
it's the.
Coming up on this editionof the Joint Podcast,
but, uh, something that'skinda a little levity.
We had these jackets that were made, uh,and on the, uh, jackets, uh, we had it.
It
doesn't say ice does it?
No.
No.
Oh, okay.
I'm just checking.
Then we would have to wear amask then, so we don't wear mask.
(00:22):
But, uh, anyway.
You had these jackets and they were made.
And um, the brand of thejacket is Eddie Bauer.
And, um, and on the jackets we hadSouth Bri homicide emblem on over
the chest plate of that jacket.
So we respond to the scene.
We're doing an investigation.
It's a, it's a gang shooting and.
Uh, we have one young lady out thereand she's, uh, dating another lady.
(00:45):
They have an apartment there andshe's just raising all kind of sand at
scene and she's not being cooperative.
Um, we later get the video, see thatshe was there, but she swore she wasn't.
We talked to her research, her residence,and at the end of the investigation
we're, we're trying to leave.
And, uh, she keeps hollering out.
Hey, Eddie.
(01:05):
And so we're trying to figureout who she's talking to.
She says, Hey, Eddie, youhear me talking to you?
We were leaving and so we'relooking at each other and say.
Hey, Eddie Boo.
Eddie Booard.
Can you talk?
Yeah.
That's your name on your jacket.
(01:30):
At the intersection of logic and truth.
This is the Logical Lawyer, and it'sthat part, exploring legal, social, and
cultural issues with insight, clarity, andpurpose, truth and logic, sharp and clear.
Insight and hope we bring it here
(01:56):
where truth needs logic in action.
It's the Logical lawyerand it's that part.
You're listening to a jointepisode of The Logical Lawyer
and the It's that part podcast.
I'm Jesse Lee Hammonds and I'm herewith the Logical Lawyer himself.
(02:16):
Attorney Bernie Brown.
Now we come at these issues and concernsfrom different backgrounds professionally,
but with a shared commitment to clarity,logic, lawfulness truth in every
fact together with real conversation.
So Bernie.
(02:37):
You've worked inside the, legalsystem, as a prosecuting attorney.
In a few moments, we're gonnabring on some guests, but before
we do that, could you brieflyframe what's legally at stake here?
Well, I, I must say, Jesse, I'mreally concerned, uh, I'm concerned
about the state of our democracy.
(02:59):
I mean.
We have a president who's issuing ordersthat usurp con Congressional authority.
I mean, he's taking over, uh, thepowers of state and local governments
to police their own, uh, citizenry.
I mean, it's crazy.
I'm sorry.
(03:20):
He's taking away free speech, man.
Can you believe that?
Uh, uh, by, uh, suppressing, uh, incolleges and institutions and, and, and
taking their money, their funds away.
Uh, it, it's, it's terrible.
And, and then, uh, the, these sweepingsearches, these detentions of people
(03:44):
on the basis of, uh, of saying thatthere may be illegal, illegal citizens.
Uh, or aliens I should say, buthe's doing these mass sweeps.
It appears to be that he'sjust sweeping Hispanics.
So I, I'm really concerned about thefuture by democracy when a president
(04:07):
can take over authority, state andlocal, uh, authority, uh, when he
can usurp congressional authority.
Uh, when he can take away citizensand non-citizens, all Americans
constitutional rights, I mean, uh,the future of our democracy, the
(04:29):
future of our democracy is at stake.
Here.
At stake is it's a worrisomesituation as to what will come in
the months, in the years ahead of us.
And you know what I say to that?
It's that part.
Exactly.
(04:50):
And, and because it's one thing to see allof these things on paper or read them in a
social media post, but it's quite another.
To see it on the ground right before youreyes where the rubber meets the road.
So that's why we invited two seasonedvoices with firsthand experience,
(05:11):
both retired lieutenants of theLos Angeles Police Department
right here in California.
So let's welcome Byron Roberts andOtis Dobin, just to kick it off.
Um, and we were talking aboutjust a little bit before
you came on, brother Byron.
There a lot of, experiences,that, that you've had.
(05:35):
You three for that matter have had,good, bad, indifferent, over your
time in, your particular positionthere, could you share, you know.
One or two moments, of that, somethingthat, and we're not necessarily looking
for something that's altogether bad.
'cause I know that you were inhomicide, coming out, right?
(05:57):
Uh, yes.
I was.
So, every time you went outon a call, it wasn't good
or it wasn't,
or it wasn't?
Uh, well, not necessarily the best of,um, times for people that you're going
out there for, but there was momentsof, um, levity when you're out there.
(06:19):
Uh,
When you got the call, how did you prepareyourself or is there a preparation?
When you are going out there,how does the call come in and
then how do you dispatch on that?
Well, um, there's a couple of ways there.
Uh, sometimes you're at home.
There are times thatyou'll be in the office.
Um, most of the time when you're inoffice, uh, you will hear it come out
(06:42):
on the radio, some type of incident.
Uh, where someone is down and, uh,the RA is responding, and then you
probably get a call from that division.
And our watch commander's probablyprobably giving you some, uh,
basic information about the,uh, victim there at scene and,
uh, whether they're down or not.
And, uh, whether they, uh, rescueambulance has transported them
(07:04):
or whether or not they're notgonna be transported because.
Pronounce that scene.
Um, when you're at home,uh, almost similar.
You get a phone call, uh uh, in themiddle of the night or middle of
the day, whatever the case may be.
If you're off and, and after you get yourpreliminary information about the victim
location, you're calling your detectivesupervisor and you're notifying the
(07:27):
detective supervisor that's responsiblefor being on call at that time, and he
will then notify his team and their.
They're making a point to rushout the scene and be there first.
You don't want to be there before them.
Mm-hmm.
But
you want them to start working and, um,there's no reason for me to rush and be
there because they're the worker bees.
I'm just there to manage this scene.
(07:47):
Is it just
one lieutenant on scene?
Uh, from my division, yes.
Uh, I worked South Bureau homicide.
So, to give you an idea, when youworked South Bureau Homicide, you
are working at Bureau of Homicide.
You're responsible forfour different divisions.
Harvard Division,Southwest, Southeast in 77.
And so, um, in that particular case,they may have their personnel there at
(08:12):
scene when you arrive, which would besometimes a patrol supervisor if you
responded at a scene or sometimes even.
Patrol captain with the, withthe, uh, responding units.
But in that particular case, um,I'm just the lieutenant for the
investigative detail that's responsiblefor investigating that particular death.
(08:33):
Um, but, uh, somethingthat's kind, a little levity.
We had these jackets that were made, uh,and on the, uh, jackets, uh, we had it.
It
doesn't say ice, does it?
No.
No.
Oh,
okay.
I'm just checking.
Then we would've to wear a maskthen, so we don't wear a mask.
But, uh, anyway, you, you had thesejackets and they were made and, um,
(08:56):
the brand of the jacket is Eddie Bauer.
And, uh, and on the jackets we hadsouth real homicide emblem on over
the chest plate of that jacket.
So we responded.
The scene, we're doing an investigation.
It's a, it's a gang shooting and.
Uh, we have one young lady out thereand she's, uh, dating another lady.
They have an apartment there andshe's just raising all kind of sand at
(09:18):
scene and she's not being cooperative.
Um, we later get the video, see thatshe was there, but she swore she wasn't.
We talked to her research, herresidence, and at the end of the
investigation we're, we're trying toleave, and, uh, she keeps hollering out.
Hey, Eddie.
And so we're trying to figureout who she's talking to.
(09:39):
He says, Hey, Eddie, youhear me talking to you?
We leaving.
And so we're looking at each othersaying, Hey, Eddie, do Eddie, do y'all.
Can you?
She says, yeah, that'syour name on your jacket.
Okay.
Oh my goodness.
(10:01):
She had a good laugh out of it.
She was, uh, you know, she wassignificantly later on when she calmed,
once she calmed down to help us out.
But at first she wasjust, uh, definitely mad.
She, she was a victim.
Uh, no.
She was, she was definitely almosta, a, uh, participating witness.
Oh Lord.
You know, so, um, you know, of coursethey say they're not there, but then
(10:25):
you look at the video and you see who'sthere and you see that she was one of the
people that allowed one of the guys torun into her house and out the back door.
So,
um mm-hmm.
Weird times.
That is, that is Brother Otis.
What do, you got anything now,Inglewood, sister, city of la you know,
(10:45):
all of us, all of it in LA County.
Anything different?
Oh,
well, Otis was LAPD.
Oh, you were LAPD as well.
LAPD, yeah.
Oh, okay.
I was thinking Inglewood.
I'm sorry.
My bad.
No, no problem.
Well, um, it's Did you and, and,uh, uh, Byron know each other then?
Well, I know Byron said, said he knew you.
(11:07):
Well, this is my first meeting of Byron.
I didn't have any knowledge of Byronat the time, but I did 38 years
and, and to give you some backgroundas far as a lieutenant, I worked
a number of jobs as a lieutenant.
I was detective, commanding officer,Pacific detective at the time.
I left there and I went to robbery,homicide, and I had the robbery
(11:27):
section, bank robbery section.
Then I left there and went to alsoinvolved shooting section as a lieutenant.
And um, so I saw a lot of stuffas a lieutenant as far as crime
goes, as far as serious crimeswhere we had the specialized
detective Handleman in the crimes.
I was just wondering, youknow, 'cause were you guys ever
(11:48):
skied out there in the field?
As I know, I got to, as a prosecutor,we got to go on a ride along.
And I went on a ride along and they, wewere, I think with the sergeant and the
sergeant said, oh, they got a call thatthere was a homicide and a gang shooting.
And they told me, they said, oh, don'tworry every, all the other officers who
(12:09):
get there before us and then we'll comelater and you got nothing to worry about.
And then all of it, we arrived there.
And no one else was.
There we're the first officerson the scene and they somehow
pulling out their guns.
And I'm all, I'm duckingunderneath the seat.
So were you guys ever afraid?
Were there any scary moments?
(12:31):
Well, not, not as a lieutenant ora sergeant, uh, when I was a police
officer, that might have been some fearbecause the police officer who was first
responding to those type of seriouscause, and it can be kind of nourishing.
Unnerving at the time thatyou're responding once you get
there to handle the situation.
But once I made sergeant and promotedup to lieutenant, I responded the
(12:53):
scenes and I can't recall beingafraid of anything because my
officers were there before me and had.
Uh, handled the scene and allthe fear and danger generally was
taken care of before I got there.
Oh, okay.
All righty.
Well, that's, that's comfort.
What about you, Byron?
Any, any, any instances where youwere like, your nerves were just
(13:19):
going through the floor, like, oh, no.
Uh, can I
handle this Well, again, uh, I, I gotdegree with, uh, uh, Lieutenant Dobin.
Uh, it's hard for me to call him Otisbecause he's a lieutenant when I was
there, so it's been a number of years.
But anyway, yes, I mean, there'salways a certain amount of concern.
(13:39):
Uh, but again, as, uh, uh, Lieutenant Dobawas saying it's, it's for a lieutenant or
a sergeant, a lot of that fear is removed.
Because, uh, once you arriveat scene, it should be secure.
Uh, as a matter of fact, there aretimes as a lieutenant at the homicide, I
will respond and, uh, you know, they'reall tied up with the scene and I see
(14:02):
something like, we need some flares, orI need some more additional tape, and.
Everybody's tied up.
So I try to do it and they'rerun and take the tape from it
and say, oh, no, LT, we got it.
You know?
And so it's a lot of reverence,uh, for you out there in the scene.
But your, your focus is generallyspeaking on making sure that you
understand what's going on, makingsure that you have whatever resources
(14:22):
that are necessary for that.
Seen and then more, more than likely,you're trying to also provide an update.
Uh, so you, so you guys never had to
do a use of force.
I'm sorry to cut it.
No use of force.
You've never had to beat upanybody or shoot anybody or kill
anybody or anything like that.
That's terrible,
isn't it?
We, we don't beat up people.
(14:45):
We, we make sure we takepeople into custody.
Oh, okay.
That was, that was before my time.
I dunno about people.
Well, that, that's proper.
That's anything wrong with that?
I mean, you gotta get 'em in the car.
Well, well, the
current leader of this work of thisUnited States, he says that officers can
(15:07):
do anything they want to, to suspect.
So, uh, I would imaginesomething that's gonna occur.
Yeah.
What,
what do you think about that?
About the, the administrationsending in National Guard, they
send them into Washington, DC.
I mean, they aren'tqualified to do police work.
Uh, they, they're trainedfor that, are they?
(15:28):
Or
No, they're not.
You know, if you really give thoughtto it, like, I have my own personal
thoughts on that, and it allrelates to this guy that's leading
this country's being, trying tobe a dictator and he's referenced
himself, uh, uh, or be an example.
(15:49):
To other dictators in the world andhe's sending his troops in to do things
that's not necessarily be done, buthe's trying to show use of strength.
But all of that is not necessary, andespecially in Washington DC And one of
the concerns I have, as you know, themayor is female black, the chief of
police, female black, as far as I know.
(16:11):
And.
What's the use of what he's doing?
It's just a political, racist eventthat he's involving himself in, and
that man is racist from head to toe.
What do you think, Byron?
What do you think, Jesse?
I'll defer to Byron in this case.
(16:33):
I was gonna say, don't get me started.
It's, it's, it's Molly interesting that.
Both the female mayor of Los Angelesand the female mayor of DC are
being challenged by this male white.
It's not a coincidence.
No.
Um, there are things that we were taughtwhen I came on the job and I came on
(16:54):
after the Rodney King incident, but oneof the things that was really driven
home with racial profiling, uh, ice, isdefinitely not following those standards.
Uh, their, their purposefor stopping people.
Uh, the only reasonable suspicionthey have is that they're here
(17:15):
illegally and that they're Hispanic.
And, uh, most of the Hispanics that youspeak with will tell you that they're
targeting dark skinned Hispanics.
Uh, not the, not the fair skinnedHispanics, but the dark skinned Hispanics.
And so now.
You have a lot of lawlessnessbecause you have individuals that
have no accountability becausethey're covering up their face.
(17:36):
Uh, you don't know, uh, who they are.
And so now you have them gettingengaged in uses of forces, uh,
traffic accidents where they'restopping cars with their vehicles.
There, uh, even reported on the news lastnight about someone sh having a shots
fired at them, and I would know thatthat would be something that at LAPD,
(17:57):
uh, Lieutenant Dobin, his people wouldspawn out for a use of force investigation
or an OIS officer involved shooting.
I don't see any of those things happening.
Even taking people off the street, out oftheir cars and, you know, leaving their
property, their, their vending machinesthere on scene and they're not impounded.
So it's like, it's, it's thingsthat, um, that it goes against
(18:20):
everything that I was taught.
Uh, and as far as the FBI and DEA,and I've never been one of them, I've
worked as a federal investigator,but not for the Federal Bill,
federal Bureau of Investigation.
Um, a lot of those guys make, uh, theytake years before they make an arrest.
Uh, they're not used to work in thestreets, so the tactics that they
(18:41):
utilize is most likely different.
And then you have to dealwith the communication factor.
How do you communicate with the, the, uh.
Enforcement agency ofthat particular area.
And so from the friends that I dostill have on the job working, my
understanding is that they have calledthe watch commander office and they
just say, we're in your area, butthey don't tell you exactly where.
(19:01):
And so my concern would besometimes, maybe even a blue on blue
shooting because if someone callsin and says that someone has a.
Covered face and they'reattacking someone.
You, you rolling in there unlessthey're readily identifiable.
Some are in their iceuniforms, some are not.
Some are in dark color uniforms.
So it's multiple agencies, multiplepeople, people in the same area
(19:25):
leads to a multiple problems andsometimes some, some tragic ending.
Uh, one of the things they justreported is one guy ran from the
Home Depot in Monrovia and ran acrossthe freeway and got hit by a car.
But I says they wasn't chasing him,
but he, he was running from a
ghost or something.
(19:45):
But the fear that they're, that they'reputting into to the community, um,
you can make a consensual contactand you can develop your PC or your
reasonable cause once you make ana, a consensual encounter with them.
But they don't want a Concentra encounter.
They just wanna run out of vansand run out of trucks and grab
people and figure it out later whenthey get 'em back to the station.
(20:08):
And so it puts professional lawenforcement back hundreds of years,
and that's the concern that I have.
There are a lot of people thattake pride in the work that
we do and how we do the work.
We've come a long way in law enforcement,especially in the city of Los Angeles.
But, um, they're, they're notfollowing the standards that we,
(20:29):
that we've been trained and, and thatwe're held responsible for falling
because, and that's interesting.
Don't follow those standards.
You arrest, you will be, uh.
A complaint filed against you andinvestigated and there's, I just don't
see the liability for them at all.
And that's an interesting point.
You said that word trained, soLAPD is trained on, uh, when
(20:50):
they can lawfully detain someone.
Um, on, uh, individual rights, uh,people's citizens, individual rights
against unreasonable searches and seizuresand, uh, when warrants are required.
I'm assuming you receive all this trainingon the on Citizens' constitutional rights.
(21:12):
And what you can and cannot do,uh, to infringe upon those rights.
That's true.
And LAPD, uh, I have to say, is verygood at training people, training
their employees, especially the policeofficers, and they continue to do it.
When I was there.
And they train the uniform officers.
They train the detectives, they givethem the rules of laws pertain to arrest
(21:38):
the people, the detention of people.
So they, they are very well trainedand updated on current issues regarding
law enforcement or taking peopleinto custody or people's rights.
They are very well.
Updated and trained on that constantly.
They're, that's one good thing about LEPD.
They're good in training.
(21:59):
Uh, let me, can I makea comment about ice?
You know, and it, it goes back,it put me in mind of, before I
was born, uh, during, uh, worldWar II, when Hitler was in power.
Hmm.
What ICE is doing is like the Nazis didas a quarter of Hitler to go out and
(22:20):
round up all the Jews, and that's whatour, this guy that's leading this country
now is having ice through that, roundup all the Hispanics and dark colored,
uh, dark skinned Hispanics or blacks.
But one thing I haveto say about the Nazis.
They didn't have their faces covered.
(22:41):
These people that's doing that now inthe United States, they're cowardly.
They have to walk around with facecovered, not strong enough, and
the strength to present themselves.
Who they are, truly who they are.
Why do they have to hide behind a mask?
But to me that's cow relate and whatthey're doing to these people is
(23:01):
unjust the way they've being treated.
And camps like the Naziand Hil did to the Jews.
Well, you know, the Cola
Snake Klan, they hid behind, man.
I was just getting ready to say that theytraded in the, uh, the hoods were masks.
Yeah, you are, you're right about that.
But what's going on now?
(23:22):
Put me in mind.
Uh, before I was born, what the Jews,what the Germans did to the Jews, and
it's similar to what they did then.
It's going on now in this country.
And it seems like, like yousaid, uh, and also Byron said.
That, uh, they aren't trainedfor this type of thing.
(23:43):
Uh, it, it, it does not appear thatthey are trained about constitutional
rights, probable cause warrants the,the legal constitutional basis for
detentions and searches and seizure.
They're just throwing that all out.
Just forget all of that.
They're just going in wholesaleand, and doing what they wanna
do and they're apparently, rightnow they're getting away with it.
(24:05):
You, you know what I wonder on that pointright there, Bernie, are they actually
officers or are they one percenters?
Uh, you know, uh, uh, the ProudBoys or somebody like that, that
that's, that's cosplaying orwhatever are, are they really
officers do, do we, do we know that?
How do we verify that?
Well, right now there's noaccountability because, um.
(24:30):
Uh, you have a person that squares a mask.
They've been given quotas to go out andget a certain amount of people a day.
And, um, when you don't haveaccountability, because you
don't have a, a name tag on your.
On your jacket or, or your shirt.
You have no badge that's visible.
(24:51):
Your face is covered.
That's when you have lawlessness.
Mm-hmm.
Because when I worked LAPD, and I'm prettysure when, uh, Lieutenant Divine worked
LAPD, we have family, we have children.
We don't want to go out there and doanything that's gonna be embarrassing
to our family where they will seeus on the news doing something
that's in inappropriate or, or.
(25:13):
Criminal In this particular case,these guys have masks over their
face, so they have no accountability.
Uh, they're not concerned about what theydo because they have basically, you know,
they're, they can hide their identity.
So when you're hiding your identity,you're not concerned about your
actions, embarrassing your family, your,your, your profession, you work in.
(25:37):
The agency you work for,things of that sort.
Then you're gonna have peoplegoing out, chasing people, doing
things, being heavy handed becausethere's no accountability there.
Um, and so now we're having people, uh,two incidents that I'm aware of, the guy
running across the freeway now, the otherguy that was at the marijuana location
(26:00):
in Oxnard allegedly fell out of a window.
He, he died, right?
And so, and now the other daywe have them taking shots at
people that are in the car.
'cause allegedly the cartried to drive and hit them.
But the video that's beingseen, you don't see that.
And so we have, uh, things thatare accountable in, in, uh, in law
(26:23):
enforcement now, such as body-wornvideos, digital in-car videos.
And at first we were resistantto it, but now as an agency.
We can't live without it becauseit's, it's basically everyone has a
camera, so you need to have a cameraof your own to more or less verify
what you're doing and also makesure that the complaints sometimes
(26:44):
that are lodge, sometimes are, are.
Frivolous, uh, falsebecause it didn't occur.
If it didn't see it on thevideo, it didn't occur.
And so these individuals justdon't have any accountability.
They don't have any body-worn video.
They don't have anydigital inquire videos.
They're covering their face.
They have no identity.
(27:04):
You don't see a name tag on 'em.
You don't see a badge.
Who, who who, who knows if they'relaw enforcement, as you said before,
we see they have uniforms that setice, some say some other agency.
But the reality of it is Iworked, uh, LAPD 29 years, I
did briefings on television.
My face was seen.
(27:25):
It doesn't matter about social media.
If you're doing the right thing, youhave no reason to hide your identity.
But when you're doing somethingthat's not correct, when you're
doing things that are fake and false,
that's why you're hiding your identity.
But what would we expect fromsomeone who release spellings?
(27:47):
That attacked other police at theUS Capitol on January the sixth, and
then turned around and released them.
But Holler, he's the law enforcementpresident, so I guess the Capitol
Police wasn't law enforcement
and, and he's also a felon.
Yes, well
imagine this, uh, it's notthe same only in America,
(28:09):
only in the USA, but the, ourgovernor's trying to fight, uh, Newsom.
He's brought this Posse Kamataact, you know, saying that.
Uh, that they, they, that they're,that they've infringed upon the
limits through the use of the militaryin, in domestic law enforcement.
That they've gone overboard, thatthey've gone beyond, uh, their legal,
(28:34):
uh, authority by, uh, descendingin the troops into LA to take over.
Uh, you know, that, that seems liketo me that that causes a lot of
confusion and a lot of disorganization.
And especially when LAPD didn'teven ask them, didn't want, doesn't
want them, doesn't need them.
(28:55):
And the, what we heard was these troopswere just standing around doing nothing.
I mean, they're supposedly protecting, uh,the ICE ages, but there's nobody you know.
So it's really almost.
I guess it's not comical 'cause it'sso serious and it's now some people
(29:15):
believe that they're just, thatthe president is setting the stage,
you know, that he's testing thegrounds for when he, later, when he.
Uh, initiates actions, uh, to, to, uh,instigate or initiate an authoritarian
state where he proceeds to try tobecome, should we say a dictator.
(29:40):
Uh, and, and, and so he's practicingby sending, sending in these troops
to see what he can get away with.
I don't know what youguys think about that.
Is, is that just anotherconspiracy theory?
I wouldn't say it'scompar conspiracy theory.
Bernie, I would've to agree with you.
Uh, this guy is testing the water tosee what he can get away with, and
(30:02):
he's getting away with it right now.
And this Supreme Court isnot doing anything too.
To assist American public indefending the American public from
this, this outrageous acts, this guyis permitting or allowed to occur.
That's going to do it for thisjoint episode of The Logical Lawyer
(30:22):
and the It's That Part podcast.
A big thanks again to our guest forjoining us and to you for listening.
Now, if you'd like to hear more fromattorney Bernie Brown, who's also
an author, he authored the book.
A prosecutor's analysis of personalsupernatural experiences, which is
a collection of fascinating storiesawaiting your verdict on whether the
(30:45):
experiences you read were fact fiction,fabrication, or fraud with stories
like the pastor and the Evil Force.
People who swear they saw a ghosttormented by demons or simply delusional
and many more on Amazon search,Bernie Brown, a prosecutor's analysis.
(31:05):
And it'll pop right up foryou, available in paperback and
in digital format on Kindle.
You can also check out the LogicalLawyer Podcast, where you can listen
to this episode again and shareit with your friends and family
and tell them to do the same.
Okay.
You can also connect withbernie@thelogicalattorney.me.
(31:25):
Yep.
The Logical attorney.me,and you've got him.
And for more episodes of the, it's ThatPart podcast, you can listen directly at.
It's that part.com where you'll also findan embedded player for both of our shows.
Again, we'd love for you to sharethese conversations with your family
and your friends and coworkers.
(31:47):
Leave a comment and do stay connectedwith the both of us, won't you?
So until the next time, asBernie would say, don't do crime.
Be aware and stay awake.
You've been listening to the LogicalLawyer and the, it's that part joint.
Podcast
(32:09):
at the intersection of logic and truth.
This is the Logical Lawyer and it's thatpart exploring legal, social, and cultural
issues with insight, clarity and purpose.
Purpose, truth andsharp and clear insight.
And.
(32:35):
Where truth, logic, in action,
it's the.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!