October 26, 2025 ā¢ 41 mins
Why do so many Christian couples avoid counseling? Because they fear being seen. Dr. D Wright pulls back the curtain on marriage counseling, revealing why most couples come to win an argument instead of heal a relationship. Joined by Jesse and Bernie, he tackles male vulnerability, fear of emotional exposure, and the false stigma that counseling means failure. Expect laughter, conviction, and truth as these three men model honesty about love, ego, and spiritual accountability. š¬ Listen for insights that could transform your next conversation.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Coming up on this editionof the Joint Podcast
that I'm able to, to dothe things that I've done.
Had some, had some real hair, hairraising experiences, had guns pulled
on me and the whole nine yards.
But you just have, you just,you know, you have to somewhere.
You just have to trust God.
You have to trust God thatGod puts you out here.
And I have, I have to trust God.
(00:23):
We have to.
We have to.
And I think that's what we have to do now.
'cause people are complainingabout Trump and all that stuff.
I said.
What happened to God
at the intersection of logic and truth?
This is the logical lawyer,
and it's that part, exploringlegal, social, and cultural issues
(00:45):
with insight, clarity and purpose.
Purpose, truth and sharp and clear.
And.
Where truth meet logic in action,
(01:06):
it's the Logical lawyerand it's that part.
Welcome to the Talk of the Times,a joint production of the Logical
Lawyer with host Bernie Brown andthe It's that Part Podcast hosted
by yours truly, Jesse Lee Hammonds.
And although we approach the various itemsand persons of interest from different
backgrounds professionally, Bernie beinga prosecutor and former Los Angeles,
(01:30):
California Assistant City Attorney.
As well as a Hall of Fame member ofthe John m Langston Bar Association of
Los Angeles, just to name a couple ofheadliners and me, a longtime former
manager of human resources and corporateassets at the Fortune 500 Company at
and t. In former radio and internationalclub Jock, we have a shared commitment
(01:54):
to clarity, logic, lawfulness relevance,as well as truth in every fact.
All brought together with realconversations amongst ourselves.
And with others about the times inwhich we have and currently live.
It's the talk of the times.
On my way to work, I
drive down Florence.
(02:15):
I just watch, I watch people, uh, homelesspeople getting up, you know, just getting
up and shaking, rolling their bags up.
I watch people getting on the bus, youknow, smoking their cigarette, you know,
coming out the store with their beers,people, they, but you got people in
so many different diverse situationsand a lot of people that they're
still, they're, they're, they're inthe same place as the homeless person.
(02:36):
Mm-hmm.
They're, they're, they're,they're in the exact same place.
And no matter what it, if people in their.
Cars driving, yelling,screaming, cussing, you know, and
irritable, restless discontent.
You start to see the commonality is allthese people in all these different,
you know, somebody driving a Tesla?
Mm-hmm.
Frustrated, you know, somebody gettingon the bus and getting off a bus,
(02:57):
frustrated, somebody walking down thestreet trying to gather their belongs.
They frustrated.
Somebody cross the street, thelight is red and they cross.
And the hearts might honksand they're frustrated.
What you honk and you just see ahoba of frustration, you're, you
know, and this guy would go, wow.
Very seldom do you see people who arejust calm and moving, moving through,
(03:19):
you know, very seldom do you see that.
But most of you'll see peopleall in all kind of different, uh,
disarray, disarray, disarray, man.
It's, it's a bits of myth, you know?
Um, um, that bringssomething to mind here.
Um, uh, I don't know if I've told you, uh,in our previous conversation that not only
am I a a, a trained, uh, musician as well,he used to play the, the slide trombone.
(03:43):
Uh, I came up.
Yeah, yeah.
I came up back in the days of, of the funkbands of the seventies and everything.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well
know.
That's what we live by.
Right?
That's the cruise out,
out, out of Dayton, Ohio.
You know, where everythingwas coming out of.
Um, you guys
had it hot then.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, and I used to also dj, youknow, so I know about all that.
And everything.
(04:03):
Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Uh, there was this,this, uh, track, this secular, uh, track
by a sister by the name of Crystal Water.
You may or may not have heard of her.
Um, and she had this very populartune, and this is to your point about.
You know, that challenge, uh, she hadthis particular song, um, uh, it was
(04:26):
titled Gypsy Woman, and the, the hookin there before you, you got to the
la la was, she's just like you and me.
But she's homeless.
Mm-hmm.
You know, because she likes to getup in the morning, she got to do her
(04:46):
hair, now she gotta do her hair now.
And, and it goes, they rattle offa few other things that, that this
particular gypsy woman would do.
Uh, which was similar towhat everybody else is doing.
Right.
But she, and then of course,the hook comes back in.
Right.
She's just like you and me.
(05:07):
Right.
But she's homeless.
Right.
You know, that's the only difference.
And we,
and we forget that, you know?
Yeah.
And, and the cool part about it,the person out there knows that,
right?
So they're naturally not, they'renot gonna, they're not gonna
open up and give you their heart.
Because you haven't beengenuine with them either.
Mm.
So if you, if you can't begenuine, then they, they're not
gonna give you the genuineness.
(05:29):
And so you have, you have, ithas to be, I have to be able
to give genuineness to get it.
It has have, you have to, if you, ifthey don't feel, you know, especially,
don't, these people have been on thestreets for long periods of mm-hmm.
No, no, no.
You have to, you got.
A lot of times you haveto earn that trust.
You know, CC counseling, uh, canbe, uh, such a vulnerable space.
(05:50):
Uh, people come to you with, uh, brokenmarriages, I imagine, fractured family
substance abuse or, or, or crisis.
Uh.
They can't even put into words.
Right?
And yet in Christian communities, somestill see therapy as unnecessary, uh,
almost like, uh, prayers should be in up.
(06:11):
Mm. Uh, uh, from your experience,what blind spots do you think
Christians often, uh, have?
About counseling?
Well, first of all, I don'twanna counsel, 'cause I don't
want you to know who, who I am.
Mm. You
know, I think about when,whenever I do couples counseling,
(06:32):
I do it one individually.
I see one and I see the other one.
'cause what happens is when you'redriving, you and your wife and uh,
Jesse drive into a counseling session.
You know what you're doing in thecar, but don't talk about this.
Don't talk about that.
You know, don't do, don't.
No, we don't need to bring that up.
Okay.
Let this, are we in agreement with that?
(06:55):
Yeah.
We don't need to talk about this.
We don't need to talk about that
now.
We agree.
Yeah.
But then, but yeah.
But then here's part two of it.
When we get into counselingtogether, Jesse's trying to win
and his wife is trying to win.
Mm-hmm.
It's
your fault and it's your fault.
So what I need to do, I need tosit down with Jesse and have my
conversation with Jesse and let'sgo back and let's have a climb.
(07:18):
So once I get clear with Jesse andthen I take your wife in and I get
clear with her, now I can, now I canfigure out what we need to do too.
I don't, when we come back together,I don't want to hear all that,
but we, what we're doing now.
We're gonna go from what, what Ifound out, and we're gonna be, we're
gonna work from there moving forward.
Because if we keep goingback, we keep going back.
(07:40):
It, it's, we're not going anywhere.
But we came, we came for council, we cameto, to get to, to, to solve a problem.
I believe one thing that in thepracticalness of, of ministry.
There's a solution to every problem.
Hmm.
There's a solution to every problem.
We just have to sit down and, and figurewhat it is, what's the problem, you know?
And, and once we, once we canfigure out the problem, we
(08:00):
can get an honest solution.
So in counseling, the same thing.
I wanna sit down with people and.
People wanna say, well man,well what you gonna tell us?
I don't know yet.
I can't tell you what I'm gonna tell'cause I haven't talked to you yet.
Then I might talk to you and then realizethat I need to stay with you for a while.
Mm-hmm.
So I tell your wife, you know, just, justhold on till till I can, I can complete
(08:20):
my full counseling analysis on Jesse.
Once I get that complete and I'm, thenI can talk to her and then I might
have to stay with her for a while.
But once I get that complete andI'm, and I can, then I can put
together a plan we can put together.
Then when I sit down to talk to youabout it, I'm not talking about.
From Jesse's perspective or fromyour wife's perspective, we're
talking about from the actual factsthat I have on the table and, and
what, what the Bible says about it.
(08:41):
Here's what we need to do.
Here's the things thatwe need to think about.
'cause in, in those individuals,I'm gonna find out what you believe
your relationship with with God.
We're gonna, we're gonna, we'regonna explore all of that so
I can, I know where you are.
'cause you'll sit there and tell, ohman, I'm, I'm a solid Christian until
I start asking open-end questions.
Mm-hmm.
And we
start seeing where you really are.
Right.
(09:01):
And then the same thing with her now.
Now we can see where, where, where it.
Problem is, you know, youguys both perpetrating, right?
You see what I'm saying?
Trying to look good in front of man, andhere's, and, but the truth of the matter
is that you can't, it's impossible.
You can't do it.
Hey, hey, B Bernie, beforeyou go, go with yours.
Uh, let me do a disclaimer here.
(09:22):
Honey, if you listening, I, Iwasn't coming to Dr. Wright for us.
We're good to go.
There's no problem here.
That's right.
Well, we're fine, but we, we know whereto come though, but, uh, but we're good.
I just wanna disclaim that.
Yeah.
I don't know if she's listening,but at the time that she
hears this, yeah, he's good.
(09:45):
Yeah, that's good.
That's safe.
That's it.
That's real safe.
Yeah, because you know, you, yougo, wait, one, one quick thing.
I'd like to say that Yeah.
Because you go to, becauseyou go to counsel doesn't
mean things are wrong either.
Right, right.
You know, it doesn't always,but, but that's the stigma.
That's the stigma thatyeah, that's the stigma.
It doesn't always have to be wrong.
It might be just, well, I was thinkingabout this and we were thinking about
this and, and I, I go to counselingto see if I can get some, some
(10:08):
counsel, both of us get to counsel.
Direction to which way to go.
Mm-hmm.
So it doesn't always have to be, I'mcoming because you, you know, you this
and you that, or you this and that.
Right.
We come together because we needsome, we need some financial counsel
or some Christian counseling.
As to how to move forward in termsof our, you know, with our kids
or, you know, that kind of a deal.
(10:28):
So it doesn't always haveto be a negative thing.
Right.
So you can use that in your disclaimer.
Yes, yes, yes.
Well, all of, all of us married men, uh.
Can join in on that disclaimer, but,but, uh, you know, it, it, part of it
is just everybody needs to improve.
I mean Right.
(10:48):
None of us are perfect.
Right.
And we all need to get better.
Yes, sir. I know I wake up everymorning, morning thinking, why
can't I be a better husband?
Mm-hmm.
You know, why can't I be more expressiveof my feelings and, you know, we,
we kind of in this hard shell ofwho we are and it's hard to change.
Mm-hmm.
Who we are Right.
(11:09):
To something that weeven know we should be.
We know we should be something else.
Right.
But it's so hard to change and it'sgreat to have people like you who
can channel us in that direction ofchange, uh, for to, to better ourselves
and to better our relationships.
Well, it's
fear, Uhhuh.
It's fear.
Yeah, because, because you,you say if I say the wrong
(11:31):
thing, you know, you know it.
You married to a sister, you know?
Hmm.
Yeah.
It's, it's on, it's off.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
So you, so you're scared.
First of all, I'm scaredto say Woo, man, you know?
Yeah.
So what has to happenis I have to think of.
The open-end way to talk, youknow, and not, not, you know, to
(11:52):
share, you know, where we're at.
And so those are things thatsometimes you have to sit down
and you have to work through.
'cause I, you know, all of us can saythat, you know, I, you know, we all
fall short, you know, I said if I'mnot paying attention, Darryl shows up.
You know, and I say, uh oh.
So that just, that's just,that's just the way we are.
It's not gonna ever, we're not gonna,ever better is always better, always
(12:14):
better, always, you know, always better.
We can cook something as much,say, well, you know, you make
a little better if you do this.
You make it a littlebetter if you do that.
You may it a little betterif you do it this way.
You know, so it, it's allthat's always on the table.
So that's, that's our, ourwalk with, with Christ.
We, we, we, we we're not.
We're working to be,to do better every day.
Not perfection.
'cause we won't get that till we get home.
(12:35):
But, you know, we work on, I can,my prayer life will be better.
Okay.
So then I always tell people,so what are you praying about?
I, I tell people always askthe pertinent questions, who,
what, where, when, and how.
Hmm.
If you do that, if you ask yourselfthat, that, you know, you say, well, why?
Okay, well, why do I need to pray better?
Okay.
And what does that look like?
(12:56):
Why am I praying better now?
Am I praying okay?
I mean, is there anything to gauge it by?
You know, so you, because a lotof times we overthink things and
you say, man, you right at thispoint, you're doing just fine.
It's just in your head thatyou think that, uh uh, oh
man, I need to pray better.
I mean.
So, so I'm saying when you startasking yourself the, the, the
pertinent questions, you'll startgiving yourself the pertinent answers
(13:18):
and it'll, it'll make some more,it'll make better sense to you.
Then when you talk, talk to me,your wife or somebody else, you
can talk from that perspective.
You know, Dave, I was thinkingabout this, you know, I was thinking
about the, about, about myself.
You know, I, I always, sothat way I'm not, I'm saying
it by my own introspective.
Perspective instead of, you know,so, and then she made comments.
(13:40):
She may go, you know, somethingthat's really good, I need to do that.
And you'd be like, when?
Win, win, win.
But I tell people, ask yourselfthe pertinent questions.
You know, um, what do I need to do?
How can I, is there, can I be better?
You know?
Yeah.
What triggers me?
Why, why, why, why?
When she says, why do I get mad?
(14:01):
Is that because you might goback and realize that's something
you've been doing all your life.
It may not just be something that she did.
It may be every turn.
It might be something that happenedwhen you was 15, 16, and every
time it comes up, it, it, it bringsthose, those thoughts to mind.
And, but you, because you haven'tthought about that, the, the,
the, the current stuff will haveyou thinking we say that's her.
(14:21):
She is, she says, you know, she, youknow, she's always saying something,
but it's like, but before her.
What about women youdated before or whatever.
You start to realize there's a patternthat I just didn't, I just didn't look at
till somebody brings it to my forefront.
Mental and and emotional triggers.
Yes, sir. Then we haveto work on the IQ and eq.
'cause you know, human beings, EQ alwayscomes out first when people get mad.
(14:47):
You have to, what do you have to do?
You have to calm them down.
So that you can talk to them.
People get real mad at theend, but EQ kicks in and EQ
takes the IQ off the table.
Mm-hmm.
So that person who whose EQ is workinghas to kind of, has to work it in
to calm that person down so I canbring you back down so that we can
(15:08):
come to a solution to the problem.
'cause the problem usually isnot as big as you've made it,
but to me it seems as though.
The most difficult, challenging,uh, problem would be dealing with
homeless people who are mentally ill.
Is there, is there a way to help them?
(15:30):
Because I mean, years ago therewas funding and there were all
of these services available.
Mm-hmm.
And help them mentallyill that are homeless.
Uh, uh, but now I'm not so sure.
How, how do you address that, that issue?
It is
a lot of prayer, man.
Um, because there's a lot of,there's a lot of factors to that.
(15:51):
Let me ask you a question.
You've seen, you ever seen somebody,and I know you have standing on
the street corner screaming Yes.
Yep.
And the light turned green.
He crossed the street.
Right?
How crazy is it?
Well, I'm, no, no, seriously,I, you, you, you know.
Know, I know part, part two.
He can ask you for a dollar, can't he?
(16:12):
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
So how crazy is he?
I've no, and I say that I'm not, I'mnot, I'm not, I'm not being funny.
But it is funny because I watchpeople yelling, scream on the, they
won't step off that curb in the left.
The light is red.
Well, I've seen some that will though.
No, that's, no, that's different.
No, that's different now.
Now we have a different, becausenow we can, yes, I can say that
person has a mental illness.
(16:33):
Yes.
Because he, he is at a point of No,he, he's really out of his mind.
He don't know where he is.
If he's where he is at.
Mm-hmm.
That's
different.
Yes.
You see.
But, but we all always say,well, that guy's crazy, but that
guy's not as crazy as you think.
He's
mm-hmm.
I
had a guy one time, um, he asked me fora dollar and he was acting on question.
I told him, I said, I'lltell you what I gotta.
Good deal for you.
I'll give you $5 if youcan quote me a scripture.
(16:56):
Uh oh.
That dude stopped and he startedquoting, oh, father, what in
heaven, how to be our name?
He quoted that scripture.
Then, you know what he told me?
He says, he said, wow, that's a good one.
He says, man, I, he said, wow.
He, I have to, I have to go think aboutthat because now he start realizing that
I'm not crazy and that I and I, thatI do have some sort of relationship.
(17:20):
And, you know, so, yeah, but itwas, it was, I just, and he, he, he
quoted that script because a, a real.
Somebody crazy wouldn'thave been able to do that.
I, I'll have to use that.
I like that.
Yeah.
But you, but it's ways to kind of seea, I have a, a good lady at my job.
She's, she's mentally ill,but she's fighting a demon.
(17:41):
And you, can you tell that because she.
Inside all of the schizophrenia that'sgoing on, she'll always go, yes, but I
love you Jesus, but I love you, Jesus.
She was going off oneday and and she stopped.
She says, gimme a minute,and she walked up.
She was raising her hands.
And she was praising, and then shecame back and she went back into,
(18:04):
so it, it's like a demon possession.
You start seeing that she's fighting,she's fighting for her life.
It's, it's, it's, it's,it's, it's like, wow.
I was praying, I was just praying over.
Said, Lord, Lord, help her.
I said, 'cause she's, she's striving.
The only problem is, is that the, thedemon part of her was so much bigger
than the, than the spiritual part.
But the spiritual part was strongenough to to to, to admit itself
(18:27):
to at, at times where it could.
Very interesting dynamic when yousee, 'cause I, you'll see people
that are, that are calmed down.
Or when we used to ministerat the Harvard Light downtown,
some people would come to eat.
You know, they'd come, they'd haveto come to the service we had.
So we'd be ministering andother people could sit there.
And quietly do a service and then all ofa sudden when they get back outside, it's
(18:52):
like they turn it off and turn it back on.
Mm.
So it is hard.
It's hard.
So it's, it's, it's hardto say definitively.
And then with the people who are seriouslymentally ill, there's no place for them.
So what they're, the goal is, orhere's, here's, here's something deep.
(19:14):
I work for, uh, I work for anagency that has independent.
There is apartment, butthere's independent living.
So these people came off the streets,got the housing vouchers, and they
put 'em up in these apartments.
And that's far as it goes.
That's it.
Sit It's no, unless, unless they pullit together and, and can do something
(19:37):
outside of that scope, chances arethey're gonna die in the department and
all of them, some of 'em are mentallyill, some of 'em are drug addicts.
You know, we've got somegood people in there.
They got kids, some of 'em got kids.
But it's an interesting thing to lookat that we picked you up off the street
and we put you in an apartment andthere's no, there's no other place to go.
(19:58):
That's it.
Well, it's like we've doneour job that's far as we.
We are gonna go with you.
And, and they, andthey, and they're stuck.
You know, it's almost like when theywere on the street, it said, the only
difference now is that I'm, I'm, I'm,I'm stuck in an apartment complex and
some of 'em tear, tear, tear it up, and.
And get kicked out andall the different things.
(20:20):
But, but it had never really dawnedon me that we, that we, we just
put a bandage on the problem.
And that's supposed to be okay, butthese people still need mental health,
you know, and they get a, they getsome of it, but it's, the problem
has, has escalated to where it, it,it has, it's running rampant up.
(20:40):
When I came in in 2004, it was like, it,it seemed like we, we had a handle on it.
But people, you know, so many peoplelosing jobs now and homeland homelessness
has so many different things.
Somebody gets, a family membergets killed and they just give up.
You know, all kind of situations.
And they then, a lot of homelesspeople were shipped from back east.
(21:01):
They just came up and they just dropped'em off in Los Angeles saying, well,
they'll, they'll take care of 'em.
But we not realizing we didn'thave the, you know, the methods
to, to take care of them.
And these people now become, youknow, become homeless on the.
Some got up, some got upand got off the street.
Very few, but most of them stayed on thestreet until they were able to move, to
(21:21):
move into housing or something like that.
Or died on the streetsare still out there.
Are we making progress?
Yeah, because progress, progress is,there's, is if I, if one person gets
off the street, we've made progress.
All right.
No sir. But now as far aslike my, my, we have like.
(21:42):
40 buildings and all 40of our buildings are full.
So that's progress.
So I, uh, I'd have to sayyes, there is progress.
Now how we justify, you know, themgetting better or not, that's, that's
a different subject because progresswould say, I took you off the street and
put you inside of an apartment complex.
(22:04):
But is it,
uh, I don't think, and I, Ijust, I don't think our listeners
understand many of them what it'slike to be addicted, uh, to a drug.
Uh, I wouldn't understand it myself.
Plus, you know, from a, from a personwho's never been addicted, they
say, well, why can't you just stop?
Why don't you just just say no?
(22:26):
Remember that mm-hmm.
Years ago, just say no.
But I remember I was addicted once.
Mm-hmm.
Way back.
I was totally addicted to cigarette and Icould not, you know, I wake up every day.
I had to have thosecigarettes and it was like.
And spro me.
Right, right.
(22:46):
So you understand?
Yes.
So here's a, here's the interesting fact.
You're still considered an, you'restill consider considered addicted.
Oh, you've just been delivered.
I, yeah, I, okay.
Okay.
Because, because if you hit a cigarette,if you took, if you took a hit of a
cigarette, what you think would happen?
Yeah.
Say, wait, whoa.
Look, look.
See, see.
(23:06):
Yeah.
You see what I mean?
Look right there.
See, see, see what you did.
Oh.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
See, so that you're delivered like me.
Mm-hmm.
So if you go in the dope house,I'm not coming to get you.
You understand?
I'm, I'm, I, I'm not even afterall the time you said, I'm no.
No, no, no, no, no.
But so, 'cause addictive personalityor, I tell people who don't understand,
there's things that I think about,somebody wants a, a, a certain kind of
(23:30):
hamburger and they get that, that taste.
And a cat say, well, I'm gonnadrive, I live down in Los Angeles.
I'm gonna drive all the wayto Carson to get that burger.
Because it's so good.
I don't care.
I'm going to Carson to buy a hamburgerthat I possibly, there's possibly
places around here that may have onebetter, but when that, when that craving
kicks in, or I want that certain flow,I want that certain kind of food.
(23:51):
And I, I only, I only go tocertain restaurant 'cause
I know that food is good.
It's like, like, and you going,you know, you gotta go over there.
It doesn't make a difference.
I don't care.
It may cost more.
Hair I want.
'cause I, that's something so that,but the addictive personality comes is
something that had, we've had since birth.
Or like one of my friends who died,described it perfectly, said my
(24:12):
mother gave us, gave me a bag ofcandy to share with my friends.
So what I did, I went in the broomand I gave everybody a piece of candy
and I put the resting under my bed.
So when your mother said,did you share the candy?
Yeah,
I did.
I share.
(24:32):
I did share it, yeah.
You did.
But I got a bag with ahundred pieces of candy.
There's six of us in there, and I gaveyou one piece, everybody a piece of
candy and I cooked the bag under my bed.
That's addictive personality.
Yeah,
because I,
yeah.
You know, I'm saying.
Yeah.
So it's interesting 'cause mostpeople, because they haven't had that,
it had, that hasn't been extreme.
(24:53):
All of us have the propensity and wehave to, we have to remember that,
that we, nobody, we all fall short.
Some of us is, you know, and I'll saythis 'cause some of us can relate.
Well also, you know, we was addictedto sex and chasing them women.
Mm-hmm.
I, I told the men's group the otherday, I said, that's just what we did.
I said, we all in here holier, endow.
(25:14):
I said, let, let that, let, let thatgood looking woman walk in this room
and everybody's brain goes the same way.
You may not say nothing, you'remarried, you love your wife, but
believe me, I, if you get openand honest to what she, if she's.
Good looking and she walk in that room.
I mean, that's, that's just real.
Not saying that you'll doanything, but it, it, it, oop,
(25:38):
it is.
And that's just real.
That's real.
That's real talk.
And, and it's that part.
We we're not ever, and we we'll neverget past, are moving to the next
level with, with our relationships ifwe're not open and honest like that.
Mm-hmm.
You lying?
Oh, no, I don't look at women.
And then, then are you gay?
You see what I'm saying?
No.
Being real.
Okay.
No, I love my wife.
It have nothing to do with that.
(25:59):
I'm not, I'm not saying thatyou're going to, to go with it.
That might, it might just be onethought, but it's, it's there.
You know, I, I ironicallythat, that topic, that exact
topic came up today in class.
Uh, a brother, a brother says, um.
Says, yeah.
Uh, pretty much the same scenario.
(26:22):
You know, someone walked in theroom or whatever, or you'd see 'em
and, and all of us are in there, arepretty seasoned guys or whatever.
He said, you'll look, but you won'tdo anything with it because you.
Anymore.
Right.
You know?
Right, right, right, right, right.
But the urge is there or the,the thought is there, but Right.
(26:42):
You know.
Right.
Uh, you know, you, you're notgonna do anything with that.
I mean, the single guys primarily,you know, uh, the married guys,
we, we've turned that off.
Well, I don't know.
So I got,
well, no, I, yeah, well, I'msaying you say that, but I
mean, I mean, it's, it is not.
The thought is fleeting.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't, I don't live there.
I don't live there anymore.
(27:02):
You
can't live there.
No, but you know, but you, but you,and the same thing for a woman.
They, they, you know, if a goodlooking man walks, they, I mean,
they gonna do the same thing.
You know, they might say,oh, but I love my husband.
Sure.
You saying that to convince yourself?
Yeah, because I, 'cause I wasthe dj, you know, and that was
my job to make these happen.
That's right.
(27:24):
Uh, so yeah, I can, I can attestto what you're saying there.
Yeah.
To be real about that.
Yeah, go ahead.
You, you're a father of three and,and a grandfather of two, right?
Mm-hmm.
Yes, sir. Uh, ministryand, and, and counseling.
You know, they're prettydemanding, I would think.
Uh, uh, they, they pull you at.
(27:45):
You know, uh, uh, your time and yourenergy, you know, they, that they,
is it a constant tug of war there?
Mm-hmm.
Uh, yet your children grew up watchingyou live this life of service, and now
your grandchildren are watching too.
Mm-hmm.
What has been.
A, a, a father and a grandfather orbeing a, a father and a grandfather.
(28:11):
Talk to you about your callingand, and what kind of legacy
do you hope your family carriesforward, uh, from your life?
Well, to be honest, you know,'cause everybody will, wants,
wants, wanna give you the, the, the,uh, the fairytale version of it.
My kids, my, my, my old, mytwo, the oldest ones were
(28:37):
well involved in my addiction.
'cause they're, they're 35, 38,39 and 40 or something like that.
Mm-hmm.
So when I came out of addictionand I went into the church, you
know, naturally I was trying to,trying to save everybody and trying.
So they turned against me becausethey were saying I was a zealot.
(28:58):
And they were living, you know, theywere good enough to live their own life.
They were doing their thing.
It was like I did, they waspartying and doing their thing.
So it got to a place where I had, I had tolearn how to be real realistic with them.
So it took, it took me a while'cause my son said something to me,
and boy, you talking, got me told,he said, you know something man.
He says, we're not doing real well.
(29:20):
And he says, and if you're not willing tokind of curtail it in to here, he says.
I'd be willing to cut ties.
He said, I, I don't, he said, I'll cut.
He said, really?
He said, I'd cut ties with, yeah, I'd cutties with the relationship altogether.
And I,
and I couldn't have that.
(29:42):
So I had to, I had to reallyunderstand where they were.
In, in retrospect to their walk with God.
So I, I, I've kind of backed off andallowed them to just have their own,
their own experiences as I do now.
They're grown now, so they,they, they're living there now.
My grandson, mygranddaughter, she's in Texas.
(30:03):
I talk to her periodically, but mygrandson that I have here, you know,
I have a little bit more say now.
He, he's a, he's autistic one, but he'sa very, he's, he's a, he's a sponge.
Mm-hmm.
But I have to be real careful with my son.
'cause my son is a veryintelligent, he, he's, he's like me.
(30:25):
He just, he just not, he's notall the way scripture biblically,
but he's a thinker, philosopher.
So some of the things that hetalks about have a lot of validity.
You know, like he's the typethat he's not, he doesn't, he's
not trying to shelter my, seemy grandson from the world.
So my son listens to rap, so heallows my grandson to hear it, period.
(30:51):
I mean, some periodically.
And I, and I said, well, don'tyou think that he says, he
says he's gonna get it anyway.
He said, but if I can't be a best friend.
And I can't help him and I can't teachhim the truth of the, of what's going on.
He said, what kind of father would I be?
And I had, I had to, I had toagree with that to a, to a degree.
I said, so my prayer, as I prayed aboutit, I've just prayed that God will
(31:13):
will move him as his life changes,that he'll move more back onto the
spiritual side and he'll be able toguide my grandson further that way.
But I do understand what he'ssaying because he's saying that
what happens is they're goingto get that, I don't care how.
How church you have when they go toschool, they're gonna have to socialize,
they're gonna hear that kind of stuff.
They're gonna hear people cursing,they're gonna hear and he says, but,
(31:36):
but me teaching him, you'll havea, you know, have a better handle
on, on being able to, to handle it.
I was like, okay.
So tho I, those are the challengesthat I have that's trying to be
a, a, a, a good Christian fatherand grandfather and counselor.
My son was, will sit down with meand we, we'd be going, I mean, we're,
we're a lot better now because, youknow, we, we talk across the board.
(31:59):
I don't, I I don't ever try to put himdown or talk about him or what have you.
'cause he, he, one thing Ilove about him, he's, he, he's
very, he's well thought out.
He's, he's not gonna sayanything just haphazardly.
So you, you know, and then we can have,we can have a, a civilized conversation.
Whether we agree or not, that's adifferent ball game, but at least I can
have a, a realistic conversation with himand I, and I, and I'm grateful for that.
(32:25):
Very interesting.
It's, it's kind, it'shard, but it's, but it's a,
it's a, it's, it is almost the samebattle I have with the homeless.
You know?
I have to, I have to sit.
No, really, I have to sit down and wehave to have a real heart to heart.
Talk about where he is at, where I'm at.
You know, um, not a bad kid, you know,he's, he's, uh, he's working with
(32:47):
SpaceX, doing pretty well, takingcare of, taking care of business,
you know, he still drinks here andthere and, but very responsible.
So I have to, you know, I have togive, I have to give the props.
Where do.
And then we build from there.
So, okay,
(33:07):
Bernie.
Well, I'm, I'm, I'vegrown, my wisdom has grown.
My, my, my logical analysis has been,
it is just sail to a higher,uh, peak of aspiration.
So.
I feel fulfilled here today,
you know, you know, uh, uh, Dr.
(33:29):
Wright, when I hear your story,uh, uh, the, the sobriety, the,
the service, the studies, uh, and,uh, you're also an author, right?
You have a book?
Yes, sir. Okay.
What's, what's the name of the book?
Selfless, selflessness.
Selfishness to selflessness.
Okay.
Okay.
I got a couple, I got a couple more of itthat'll be on coming out pretty soon, but
(33:49):
this, it was about, it was written whenI was married, my first, my second wife.
And, uh.
I'm writing a book and my wife used totell me, I don't know how you writing
this book, and you the most selfish man.
I know.
Nah.
Mm mm
And it, but it, but, but, but when I hadto get real honest with myself, I realized
I was, 'cause there was a part of me thatI'm, uh, I'm writing now about the, uh.
(34:12):
Unfulfilled part that even to date,I don't think has ever been filled.
'cause I don't know what it is thatneeds to be go, that go in there, but
I know that humility was one of thethings that had, that had to take place.
And I think over periods of years, I've,I've become, I. A lot more humbler.
But I was, I was, I don't know, I just,um, I've always been, 'cause that's
(34:35):
the way I was raised, so I was raisedmaterialistically, so it was always
about me getting what I wanted, gettingwhat I wanted, getting what I wanted.
So that's kind of how that manifested.
So I think that just kind of, youknow, as part of the personality trait.
I had to work on as, as a Christian, justto be, to learn how to be more humble.
And I think working with homeless peopleand working, you know, in that field has
(34:59):
hell, has helped me with that immensely.
I had to humble myself in the churches,and we didn't talk about that part
because I, I had some real interestingchurch experiences that really, really,
you know, because I, I left church in 20 7, bowing not to ever work in a church
again because I'd been hurt church.
So church hurt.
Mm-hmm.
(35:20):
Forgetting that God had to show me that.
Regardless, they're still human.
They're still people just like you
and just because of the fact that you're,they did this or that doesn't mean that
they weren't called to preach the gospel.
They're still teaching you to correct thedoctrine correctly and and what have you.
And he says that's whatyou need to gravitate to.
Don't, don't push your focuson the man 'cause we all fall.
(35:42):
But it took me a while.
It took me a while to, to get that,
that's the achilles heel for me.
You know, um, uh, hearing, uh, youknow, all of that and, and, and, and
your whole story, uh, you know, it's,it's, you know, I, I don't hear.
(36:07):
Perfection.
But I do hear persistence.
Yes, sir. Um, uh, so Iwant to end it with this.
If someone listening right now,wherever you are, uh, wherever
that they may be, uh, they're,they're on the edge of giving up.
They might be on the edge of giving up.
It might be maybe, uh, on their marriage.
(36:29):
Uh, maybe on their sobriety,uh, maybe on their faiths.
What would you say to them in this moment?
First of all, they need to examinewhere they are, and they need to
get real honest about their faith.
Do I truly believe in JesusChrist as my Lord and Savior?
(36:52):
Did I, am I really married?
Because my, my, my secondmarriage wasn't a real marriage
because I didn't get, I didn't followany, I just got married outta convenience.
Mm.
We stayed married 20years, but it wasn't real.
So examine where you really are, you know?
(37:13):
Are you in love?
What is it to be in love?
Do you know what beingin love actually is?
So I would tell people that, that to,to really take, do some self-examination
to, and get real, real honest withwhere you really are before you start
making any decisions to, to going anyfurther or any to even moving ahead.
Or moving back because you, you, you canmove, you'll make a move going back and
(37:36):
regret it or you'll make a move forwardand it gets worse because I haven't taken
the time to be honest with my own self,you know, step two of alcoholics not that
came to believe that the power greaterthan myself can restore me to sanity.
So came, came to believe, and the onlyway I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna have
(37:58):
to have to really have to do some soulsearching and some real examinations.
Like, like, like, uh, Berniesays, Bernie says, well, you know,
enlightened because there's somethings I just had never looked at.
And somebody says thatsomebody speak speaks to you.
It's your spirit, yourheart, not your head.
'cause we, this is whatgets us in trouble.
(38:19):
'cause we, we know everything.
I can figure stuff out.
But the truth of the matter, if youget honest, will go to your heart.
In your heart, it was where the,the true, true answers come from.
Because that's where God is.
That's where God is.
So I would tell people on, on theedge before, before you do something
rash because you know, you know,we, we, we know You realize that.
(38:41):
I believe that everybody is,has, is, has a calling and God is
calling us to do certain things.
And that if we can, if we here listen,sit still and listen for that still
small voice, you know that God, Godwill, God will show up and God will
turn life around for you as he is done.
So many in the past just look at so manyof the past lives have changed, you know,
(39:02):
and that he wants to do the same for you.
You know, and on, uh, the podcastthat I do, uh, I, that was my, that
would be my cue to say It's that part.
It's that part.
Amen.
It's that part.
It's that part.
It's that part.
Amen.
It's that part right there.
God bless you.
Uh, Dr. Wright, thank youso much for joining us.
(39:24):
Uh, we really appreciate
Oh, a pleasure, man.
Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure.
And that's the talk of the times.
On behalf of the co-host BernieBrown, we thank you for listening and
we hope it compels you into actionor triggers some mindful thought
about the times in which we live.
We also invite you to check outthe Logical Lawyer, Bernie Brown
(39:46):
and the It's that part podcast withyours truly, Jesse Lee Hammonds
wherever you listen to your podcast.
And for even more, Bernie, check out hisbook on Amazon, a prosecutor's analysis
of Personal Supernatural Experiences.
Which is a collection of fascinatingstories awaiting your verdict of fact
(40:07):
fiction, fabrication, or fantasy.
You decide you can also connectwith Bernie on his website,
the logical attorney.me.
That's the logical attorney.me andconnect with me at it's that part.com
where you can also access both.
Podcast and now you've got it.
(40:29):
It's the talk of the Times
at the intersection of logic and truth.
This is the Logical lawyer
and it's that part, exploring legal,social, and cultural issues with
insight, clarity, and purpose,truth and logic, sharp and clear
(40:52):
insight and hope we bring it.
Where truth,
the.
Coming up on this editionof the Joint Podcast
that I'm able to, to dothe things that I've done.
Had some, had some real hair, hairraising experiences, had guns pulled
on me and the whole nine yards.
But you just have, you just,you know, you have to somewhere.
You just have to trust God.
You have to trust God thatGod puts you out here.
And I have, I have to trust God.
(00:23):
We have to.
We have to.
And I think that's what we have to do now.
'cause people are complainingabout Trump and all that stuff.
I said.
What happened to God
at the intersection of logic and truth?
This is the logical lawyer,
and it's that part, exploringlegal, social, and cultural issues
(00:45):
with insight, clarity and purpose.
Purpose, truth and sharp and clear.
And.
Where truth meet logic in action,
(01:06):
it's the Logical lawyerand it's that part.
Welcome to the Talk of the Times,a joint production of the Logical
Lawyer with host Bernie Brown andthe It's that Part Podcast hosted
by yours truly, Jesse Lee Hammonds.
And although we approach the various itemsand persons of interest from different
backgrounds professionally, Bernie beinga prosecutor and former Los Angeles,
(01:30):
California Assistant City Attorney.
As well as a Hall of Fame member ofthe John m Langston Bar Association of
Los Angeles, just to name a couple ofheadliners and me, a longtime former
manager of human resources and corporateassets at the Fortune 500 Company at
and t. In former radio and internationalclub Jock, we have a shared commitment
(01:54):
to clarity, logic, lawfulness relevance,as well as truth in every fact.
All brought together with realconversations amongst ourselves.
And with others about the times inwhich we have and currently live.
It's the talk of the times.
On my way to work, I
drive down Florence.
(02:15):
I just watch, I watch people, uh, homelesspeople getting up, you know, just getting
up and shaking, rolling their bags up.
I watch people getting on the bus, youknow, smoking their cigarette, you know,
coming out the store with their beers,people, they, but you got people in
so many different diverse situationsand a lot of people that they're
still, they're, they're, they're inthe same place as the homeless person.
(02:36):
Mm-hmm.
They're, they're, they're,they're in the exact same place.
And no matter what it, if people in their.
Cars driving, yelling,screaming, cussing, you know, and
irritable, restless discontent.
You start to see the commonality is allthese people in all these different,
you know, somebody driving a Tesla?
Mm-hmm.
Frustrated, you know, somebody gettingon the bus and getting off a bus,
(02:57):
frustrated, somebody walking down thestreet trying to gather their belongs.
They frustrated.
Somebody cross the street, thelight is red and they cross.
And the hearts might honksand they're frustrated.
What you honk and you just see ahoba of frustration, you're, you
know, and this guy would go, wow.
Very seldom do you see people who arejust calm and moving, moving through,
(03:19):
you know, very seldom do you see that.
But most of you'll see peopleall in all kind of different, uh,
disarray, disarray, disarray, man.
It's, it's a bits of myth, you know?
Um, um, that bringssomething to mind here.
Um, uh, I don't know if I've told you, uh,in our previous conversation that not only
am I a a, a trained, uh, musician as well,he used to play the, the slide trombone.
(03:43):
Uh, I came up.
Yeah, yeah.
I came up back in the days of, of the funkbands of the seventies and everything.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well
know.
That's what we live by.
Right?
That's the cruise out,
out, out of Dayton, Ohio.
You know, where everythingwas coming out of.
Um, you guys
had it hot then.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, and I used to also dj, youknow, so I know about all that.
And everything.
(04:03):
Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Uh, there was this,this, uh, track, this secular, uh, track
by a sister by the name of Crystal Water.
You may or may not have heard of her.
Um, and she had this very populartune, and this is to your point about.
You know, that challenge, uh, she hadthis particular song, um, uh, it was
(04:26):
titled Gypsy Woman, and the, the hookin there before you, you got to the
la la was, she's just like you and me.
But she's homeless.
Mm-hmm.
You know, because she likes to getup in the morning, she got to do her
(04:46):
hair, now she gotta do her hair now.
And, and it goes, they rattle offa few other things that, that this
particular gypsy woman would do.
Uh, which was similar towhat everybody else is doing.
Right.
But she, and then of course,the hook comes back in.
Right.
She's just like you and me.
(05:07):
Right.
But she's homeless.
Right.
You know, that's the only difference.
And we,
and we forget that, you know?
Yeah.
And, and the cool part about it,the person out there knows that,
right?
So they're naturally not, they'renot gonna, they're not gonna
open up and give you their heart.
Because you haven't beengenuine with them either.
Mm.
So if you, if you can't begenuine, then they, they're not
gonna give you the genuineness.
(05:29):
And so you have, you have, ithas to be, I have to be able
to give genuineness to get it.
It has have, you have to, if you, ifthey don't feel, you know, especially,
don't, these people have been on thestreets for long periods of mm-hmm.
No, no, no.
You have to, you got.
A lot of times you haveto earn that trust.
You know, CC counseling, uh, canbe, uh, such a vulnerable space.
(05:50):
Uh, people come to you with, uh, brokenmarriages, I imagine, fractured family
substance abuse or, or, or crisis.
Uh.
They can't even put into words.
Right?
And yet in Christian communities, somestill see therapy as unnecessary, uh,
almost like, uh, prayers should be in up.
(06:11):
Mm. Uh, uh, from your experience,what blind spots do you think
Christians often, uh, have?
About counseling?
Well, first of all, I don'twanna counsel, 'cause I don't
want you to know who, who I am.
Mm. You
know, I think about when,whenever I do couples counseling,
(06:32):
I do it one individually.
I see one and I see the other one.
'cause what happens is when you'redriving, you and your wife and uh,
Jesse drive into a counseling session.
You know what you're doing in thecar, but don't talk about this.
Don't talk about that.
You know, don't do, don't.
No, we don't need to bring that up.
Okay.
Let this, are we in agreement with that?
(06:55):
Yeah.
We don't need to talk about this.
We don't need to talk about that
now.
We agree.
Yeah.
But then, but yeah.
But then here's part two of it.
When we get into counselingtogether, Jesse's trying to win
and his wife is trying to win.
Mm-hmm.
It's
your fault and it's your fault.
So what I need to do, I need tosit down with Jesse and have my
conversation with Jesse and let'sgo back and let's have a climb.
(07:18):
So once I get clear with Jesse andthen I take your wife in and I get
clear with her, now I can, now I canfigure out what we need to do too.
I don't, when we come back together,I don't want to hear all that,
but we, what we're doing now.
We're gonna go from what, what Ifound out, and we're gonna be, we're
gonna work from there moving forward.
Because if we keep goingback, we keep going back.
(07:40):
It, it's, we're not going anywhere.
But we came, we came for council, we cameto, to get to, to, to solve a problem.
I believe one thing that in thepracticalness of, of ministry.
There's a solution to every problem.
Hmm.
There's a solution to every problem.
We just have to sit down and, and figurewhat it is, what's the problem, you know?
And, and once we, once we canfigure out the problem, we
(08:00):
can get an honest solution.
So in counseling, the same thing.
I wanna sit down with people and.
People wanna say, well man,well what you gonna tell us?
I don't know yet.
I can't tell you what I'm gonna tell'cause I haven't talked to you yet.
Then I might talk to you and then realizethat I need to stay with you for a while.
Mm-hmm.
So I tell your wife, you know, just, justhold on till till I can, I can complete
(08:20):
my full counseling analysis on Jesse.
Once I get that complete and I'm, thenI can talk to her and then I might
have to stay with her for a while.
But once I get that complete andI'm, and I can, then I can put
together a plan we can put together.
Then when I sit down to talk to youabout it, I'm not talking about.
From Jesse's perspective or fromyour wife's perspective, we're
talking about from the actual factsthat I have on the table and, and
what, what the Bible says about it.
(08:41):
Here's what we need to do.
Here's the things thatwe need to think about.
'cause in, in those individuals,I'm gonna find out what you believe
your relationship with with God.
We're gonna, we're gonna, we'regonna explore all of that so
I can, I know where you are.
'cause you'll sit there and tell, ohman, I'm, I'm a solid Christian until
I start asking open-end questions.
Mm-hmm.
And we
start seeing where you really are.
Right.
(09:01):
And then the same thing with her now.
Now we can see where, where, where it.
Problem is, you know, youguys both perpetrating, right?
You see what I'm saying?
Trying to look good in front of man, andhere's, and, but the truth of the matter
is that you can't, it's impossible.
You can't do it.
Hey, hey, B Bernie, beforeyou go, go with yours.
Uh, let me do a disclaimer here.
(09:22):
Honey, if you listening, I, Iwasn't coming to Dr. Wright for us.
We're good to go.
There's no problem here.
That's right.
Well, we're fine, but we, we know whereto come though, but, uh, but we're good.
I just wanna disclaim that.
Yeah.
I don't know if she's listening,but at the time that she
hears this, yeah, he's good.
(09:45):
Yeah, that's good.
That's safe.
That's it.
That's real safe.
Yeah, because you know, you, yougo, wait, one, one quick thing.
I'd like to say that Yeah.
Because you go to, becauseyou go to counsel doesn't
mean things are wrong either.
Right, right.
You know, it doesn't always,but, but that's the stigma.
That's the stigma thatyeah, that's the stigma.
It doesn't always have to be wrong.
It might be just, well, I was thinkingabout this and we were thinking about
this and, and I, I go to counselingto see if I can get some, some
(10:08):
counsel, both of us get to counsel.
Direction to which way to go.
Mm-hmm.
So it doesn't always have to be, I'mcoming because you, you know, you this
and you that, or you this and that.
Right.
We come together because we needsome, we need some financial counsel
or some Christian counseling.
As to how to move forward in termsof our, you know, with our kids
or, you know, that kind of a deal.
(10:28):
So it doesn't always haveto be a negative thing.
Right.
So you can use that in your disclaimer.
Yes, yes, yes.
Well, all of, all of us married men, uh.
Can join in on that disclaimer, but,but, uh, you know, it, it, part of it
is just everybody needs to improve.
I mean Right.
(10:48):
None of us are perfect.
Right.
And we all need to get better.
Yes, sir. I know I wake up everymorning, morning thinking, why
can't I be a better husband?
Mm-hmm.
You know, why can't I be more expressiveof my feelings and, you know, we,
we kind of in this hard shell ofwho we are and it's hard to change.
Mm-hmm.
Who we are Right.
(11:09):
To something that weeven know we should be.
We know we should be something else.
Right.
But it's so hard to change and it'sgreat to have people like you who
can channel us in that direction ofchange, uh, for to, to better ourselves
and to better our relationships.
Well, it's
fear, Uhhuh.
It's fear.
Yeah, because, because you,you say if I say the wrong
(11:31):
thing, you know, you know it.
You married to a sister, you know?
Hmm.
Yeah.
It's, it's on, it's off.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
So you, so you're scared.
First of all, I'm scaredto say Woo, man, you know?
Yeah.
So what has to happenis I have to think of.
The open-end way to talk, youknow, and not, not, you know, to
(11:52):
share, you know, where we're at.
And so those are things thatsometimes you have to sit down
and you have to work through.
'cause I, you know, all of us can saythat, you know, I, you know, we all
fall short, you know, I said if I'mnot paying attention, Darryl shows up.
You know, and I say, uh oh.
So that just, that's just,that's just the way we are.
It's not gonna ever, we're not gonna,ever better is always better, always
(12:14):
better, always, you know, always better.
We can cook something as much,say, well, you know, you make
a little better if you do this.
You make it a littlebetter if you do that.
You may it a little betterif you do it this way.
You know, so it, it's allthat's always on the table.
So that's, that's our, ourwalk with, with Christ.
We, we, we, we we're not.
We're working to be,to do better every day.
Not perfection.
'cause we won't get that till we get home.
(12:35):
But, you know, we work on, I can,my prayer life will be better.
Okay.
So then I always tell people,so what are you praying about?
I, I tell people always askthe pertinent questions, who,
what, where, when, and how.
Hmm.
If you do that, if you ask yourselfthat, that, you know, you say, well, why?
Okay, well, why do I need to pray better?
Okay.
And what does that look like?
(12:56):
Why am I praying better now?
Am I praying okay?
I mean, is there anything to gauge it by?
You know, so you, because a lotof times we overthink things and
you say, man, you right at thispoint, you're doing just fine.
It's just in your head thatyou think that, uh uh, oh
man, I need to pray better.
I mean.
So, so I'm saying when you startasking yourself the, the, the
pertinent questions, you'll startgiving yourself the pertinent answers
(13:18):
and it'll, it'll make some more,it'll make better sense to you.
Then when you talk, talk to me,your wife or somebody else, you
can talk from that perspective.
You know, Dave, I was thinkingabout this, you know, I was thinking
about the, about, about myself.
You know, I, I always, sothat way I'm not, I'm saying
it by my own introspective.
Perspective instead of, you know,so, and then she made comments.
(13:40):
She may go, you know, somethingthat's really good, I need to do that.
And you'd be like, when?
Win, win, win.
But I tell people, ask yourselfthe pertinent questions.
You know, um, what do I need to do?
How can I, is there, can I be better?
You know?
Yeah.
What triggers me?
Why, why, why, why?
When she says, why do I get mad?
(14:01):
Is that because you might goback and realize that's something
you've been doing all your life.
It may not just be something that she did.
It may be every turn.
It might be something that happenedwhen you was 15, 16, and every
time it comes up, it, it, it bringsthose, those thoughts to mind.
And, but you, because you haven'tthought about that, the, the,
the, the current stuff will haveyou thinking we say that's her.
(14:21):
She is, she says, you know, she, youknow, she's always saying something,
but it's like, but before her.
What about women youdated before or whatever.
You start to realize there's a patternthat I just didn't, I just didn't look at
till somebody brings it to my forefront.
Mental and and emotional triggers.
Yes, sir. Then we haveto work on the IQ and eq.
'cause you know, human beings, EQ alwayscomes out first when people get mad.
(14:47):
You have to, what do you have to do?
You have to calm them down.
So that you can talk to them.
People get real mad at theend, but EQ kicks in and EQ
takes the IQ off the table.
Mm-hmm.
So that person who whose EQ is workinghas to kind of, has to work it in
to calm that person down so I canbring you back down so that we can
(15:08):
come to a solution to the problem.
'cause the problem usually isnot as big as you've made it,
but to me it seems as though.
The most difficult, challenging,uh, problem would be dealing with
homeless people who are mentally ill.
Is there, is there a way to help them?
(15:30):
Because I mean, years ago therewas funding and there were all
of these services available.
Mm-hmm.
And help them mentallyill that are homeless.
Uh, uh, but now I'm not so sure.
How, how do you address that, that issue?
It is
a lot of prayer, man.
Um, because there's a lot of,there's a lot of factors to that.
(15:51):
Let me ask you a question.
You've seen, you ever seen somebody,and I know you have standing on
the street corner screaming Yes.
Yep.
And the light turned green.
He crossed the street.
Right?
How crazy is it?
Well, I'm, no, no, seriously,I, you, you, you know.
Know, I know part, part two.
He can ask you for a dollar, can't he?
(16:12):
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
So how crazy is he?
I've no, and I say that I'm not, I'mnot, I'm not, I'm not being funny.
But it is funny because I watchpeople yelling, scream on the, they
won't step off that curb in the left.
The light is red.
Well, I've seen some that will though.
No, that's, no, that's different.
No, that's different now.
Now we have a different, becausenow we can, yes, I can say that
person has a mental illness.
(16:33):
Yes.
Because he, he is at a point of No,he, he's really out of his mind.
He don't know where he is.
If he's where he is at.
Mm-hmm.
That's
different.
Yes.
You see.
But, but we all always say,well, that guy's crazy, but that
guy's not as crazy as you think.
He's
mm-hmm.
I
had a guy one time, um, he asked me fora dollar and he was acting on question.
I told him, I said, I'lltell you what I gotta.
Good deal for you.
I'll give you $5 if youcan quote me a scripture.
(16:56):
Uh oh.
That dude stopped and he startedquoting, oh, father, what in
heaven, how to be our name?
He quoted that scripture.
Then, you know what he told me?
He says, he said, wow, that's a good one.
He says, man, I, he said, wow.
He, I have to, I have to go think aboutthat because now he start realizing that
I'm not crazy and that I and I, thatI do have some sort of relationship.
(17:20):
And, you know, so, yeah, but itwas, it was, I just, and he, he, he
quoted that script because a, a real.
Somebody crazy wouldn'thave been able to do that.
I, I'll have to use that.
I like that.
Yeah.
But you, but it's ways to kind of seea, I have a, a good lady at my job.
She's, she's mentally ill,but she's fighting a demon.
(17:41):
And you, can you tell that because she.
Inside all of the schizophrenia that'sgoing on, she'll always go, yes, but I
love you Jesus, but I love you, Jesus.
She was going off oneday and and she stopped.
She says, gimme a minute,and she walked up.
She was raising her hands.
And she was praising, and then shecame back and she went back into,
(18:04):
so it, it's like a demon possession.
You start seeing that she's fighting,she's fighting for her life.
It's, it's, it's, it's,it's, it's like, wow.
I was praying, I was just praying over.
Said, Lord, Lord, help her.
I said, 'cause she's, she's striving.
The only problem is, is that the, thedemon part of her was so much bigger
than the, than the spiritual part.
But the spiritual part was strongenough to to to, to admit itself
(18:27):
to at, at times where it could.
Very interesting dynamic when yousee, 'cause I, you'll see people
that are, that are calmed down.
Or when we used to ministerat the Harvard Light downtown,
some people would come to eat.
You know, they'd come, they'd haveto come to the service we had.
So we'd be ministering andother people could sit there.
And quietly do a service and then all ofa sudden when they get back outside, it's
(18:52):
like they turn it off and turn it back on.
Mm.
So it is hard.
It's hard.
So it's, it's, it's hardto say definitively.
And then with the people who are seriouslymentally ill, there's no place for them.
So what they're, the goal is, orhere's, here's, here's something deep.
(19:14):
I work for, uh, I work for anagency that has independent.
There is apartment, butthere's independent living.
So these people came off the streets,got the housing vouchers, and they
put 'em up in these apartments.
And that's far as it goes.
That's it.
Sit It's no, unless, unless they pullit together and, and can do something
(19:37):
outside of that scope, chances arethey're gonna die in the department and
all of them, some of 'em are mentallyill, some of 'em are drug addicts.
You know, we've got somegood people in there.
They got kids, some of 'em got kids.
But it's an interesting thing to lookat that we picked you up off the street
and we put you in an apartment andthere's no, there's no other place to go.
(19:58):
That's it.
Well, it's like we've doneour job that's far as we.
We are gonna go with you.
And, and they, andthey, and they're stuck.
You know, it's almost like when theywere on the street, it said, the only
difference now is that I'm, I'm, I'm,I'm stuck in an apartment complex and
some of 'em tear, tear, tear it up, and.
And get kicked out andall the different things.
(20:20):
But, but it had never really dawnedon me that we, that we, we just
put a bandage on the problem.
And that's supposed to be okay, butthese people still need mental health,
you know, and they get a, they getsome of it, but it's, the problem
has, has escalated to where it, it,it has, it's running rampant up.
(20:40):
When I came in in 2004, it was like, it,it seemed like we, we had a handle on it.
But people, you know, so many peoplelosing jobs now and homeland homelessness
has so many different things.
Somebody gets, a family membergets killed and they just give up.
You know, all kind of situations.
And they then, a lot of homelesspeople were shipped from back east.
(21:01):
They just came up and they just dropped'em off in Los Angeles saying, well,
they'll, they'll take care of 'em.
But we not realizing we didn'thave the, you know, the methods
to, to take care of them.
And these people now become, youknow, become homeless on the.
Some got up, some got upand got off the street.
Very few, but most of them stayed on thestreet until they were able to move, to
(21:21):
move into housing or something like that.
Or died on the streetsare still out there.
Are we making progress?
Yeah, because progress, progress is,there's, is if I, if one person gets
off the street, we've made progress.
All right.
No sir. But now as far aslike my, my, we have like.
(21:42):
40 buildings and all 40of our buildings are full.
So that's progress.
So I, uh, I'd have to sayyes, there is progress.
Now how we justify, you know, themgetting better or not, that's, that's
a different subject because progresswould say, I took you off the street and
put you inside of an apartment complex.
(22:04):
But is it,
uh, I don't think, and I, Ijust, I don't think our listeners
understand many of them what it'slike to be addicted, uh, to a drug.
Uh, I wouldn't understand it myself.
Plus, you know, from a, from a personwho's never been addicted, they
say, well, why can't you just stop?
Why don't you just just say no?
(22:26):
Remember that mm-hmm.
Years ago, just say no.
But I remember I was addicted once.
Mm-hmm.
Way back.
I was totally addicted to cigarette and Icould not, you know, I wake up every day.
I had to have thosecigarettes and it was like.
And spro me.
Right, right.
(22:46):
So you understand?
Yes.
So here's a, here's the interesting fact.
You're still considered an, you'restill consider considered addicted.
Oh, you've just been delivered.
I, yeah, I, okay.
Okay.
Because, because if you hit a cigarette,if you took, if you took a hit of a
cigarette, what you think would happen?
Yeah.
Say, wait, whoa.
Look, look.
See, see.
(23:06):
Yeah.
You see what I mean?
Look right there.
See, see, see what you did.
Oh.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
See, so that you're delivered like me.
Mm-hmm.
So if you go in the dope house,I'm not coming to get you.
You understand?
I'm, I'm, I, I'm not even afterall the time you said, I'm no.
No, no, no, no, no.
But so, 'cause addictive personalityor, I tell people who don't understand,
there's things that I think about,somebody wants a, a, a certain kind of
(23:30):
hamburger and they get that, that taste.
And a cat say, well, I'm gonnadrive, I live down in Los Angeles.
I'm gonna drive all the wayto Carson to get that burger.
Because it's so good.
I don't care.
I'm going to Carson to buy a hamburgerthat I possibly, there's possibly
places around here that may have onebetter, but when that, when that craving
kicks in, or I want that certain flow,I want that certain kind of food.
(23:51):
And I, I only, I only go tocertain restaurant 'cause
I know that food is good.
It's like, like, and you going,you know, you gotta go over there.
It doesn't make a difference.
I don't care.
It may cost more.
Hair I want.
'cause I, that's something so that,but the addictive personality comes is
something that had, we've had since birth.
Or like one of my friends who died,described it perfectly, said my
(24:12):
mother gave us, gave me a bag ofcandy to share with my friends.
So what I did, I went in the broomand I gave everybody a piece of candy
and I put the resting under my bed.
So when your mother said,did you share the candy?
Yeah,
I did.
I share.
(24:32):
I did share it, yeah.
You did.
But I got a bag with ahundred pieces of candy.
There's six of us in there, and I gaveyou one piece, everybody a piece of
candy and I cooked the bag under my bed.
That's addictive personality.
Yeah,
because I,
yeah.
You know, I'm saying.
Yeah.
So it's interesting 'cause mostpeople, because they haven't had that,
it had, that hasn't been extreme.
(24:53):
All of us have the propensity and wehave to, we have to remember that,
that we, nobody, we all fall short.
Some of us is, you know, and I'll saythis 'cause some of us can relate.
Well also, you know, we was addictedto sex and chasing them women.
Mm-hmm.
I, I told the men's group the otherday, I said, that's just what we did.
I said, we all in here holier, endow.
(25:14):
I said, let, let that, let, let thatgood looking woman walk in this room
and everybody's brain goes the same way.
You may not say nothing, you'remarried, you love your wife, but
believe me, I, if you get openand honest to what she, if she's.
Good looking and she walk in that room.
I mean, that's, that's just real.
Not saying that you'll doanything, but it, it, it, oop,
(25:38):
it is.
And that's just real.
That's real.
That's real talk.
And, and it's that part.
We we're not ever, and we we'll neverget past, are moving to the next
level with, with our relationships ifwe're not open and honest like that.
Mm-hmm.
You lying?
Oh, no, I don't look at women.
And then, then are you gay?
You see what I'm saying?
No.
Being real.
Okay.
No, I love my wife.
It have nothing to do with that.
(25:59):
I'm not, I'm not saying thatyou're going to, to go with it.
That might, it might just be onethought, but it's, it's there.
You know, I, I ironicallythat, that topic, that exact
topic came up today in class.
Uh, a brother, a brother says, um.
Says, yeah.
Uh, pretty much the same scenario.
(26:22):
You know, someone walked in theroom or whatever, or you'd see 'em
and, and all of us are in there, arepretty seasoned guys or whatever.
He said, you'll look, but you won'tdo anything with it because you.
Anymore.
Right.
You know?
Right, right, right, right, right.
But the urge is there or the,the thought is there, but Right.
(26:42):
You know.
Right.
Uh, you know, you, you're notgonna do anything with that.
I mean, the single guys primarily,you know, uh, the married guys,
we, we've turned that off.
Well, I don't know.
So I got,
well, no, I, yeah, well, I'msaying you say that, but I
mean, I mean, it's, it is not.
The thought is fleeting.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't, I don't live there.
I don't live there anymore.
(27:02):
You
can't live there.
No, but you know, but you, but you,and the same thing for a woman.
They, they, you know, if a goodlooking man walks, they, I mean,
they gonna do the same thing.
You know, they might say,oh, but I love my husband.
Sure.
You saying that to convince yourself?
Yeah, because I, 'cause I wasthe dj, you know, and that was
my job to make these happen.
That's right.
(27:24):
Uh, so yeah, I can, I can attestto what you're saying there.
Yeah.
To be real about that.
Yeah, go ahead.
You, you're a father of three and,and a grandfather of two, right?
Mm-hmm.
Yes, sir. Uh, ministryand, and, and counseling.
You know, they're prettydemanding, I would think.
Uh, uh, they, they pull you at.
(27:45):
You know, uh, uh, your time and yourenergy, you know, they, that they,
is it a constant tug of war there?
Mm-hmm.
Uh, yet your children grew up watchingyou live this life of service, and now
your grandchildren are watching too.
Mm-hmm.
What has been.
A, a, a father and a grandfather orbeing a, a father and a grandfather.
(28:11):
Talk to you about your callingand, and what kind of legacy
do you hope your family carriesforward, uh, from your life?
Well, to be honest, you know,'cause everybody will, wants,
wants, wanna give you the, the, the,uh, the fairytale version of it.
My kids, my, my, my old, mytwo, the oldest ones were
(28:37):
well involved in my addiction.
'cause they're, they're 35, 38,39 and 40 or something like that.
Mm-hmm.
So when I came out of addictionand I went into the church, you
know, naturally I was trying to,trying to save everybody and trying.
So they turned against me becausethey were saying I was a zealot.
(28:58):
And they were living, you know, theywere good enough to live their own life.
They were doing their thing.
It was like I did, they waspartying and doing their thing.
So it got to a place where I had, I had tolearn how to be real realistic with them.
So it took, it took me a while'cause my son said something to me,
and boy, you talking, got me told,he said, you know something man.
He says, we're not doing real well.
(29:20):
And he says, and if you're not willing tokind of curtail it in to here, he says.
I'd be willing to cut ties.
He said, I, I don't, he said, I'll cut.
He said, really?
He said, I'd cut ties with, yeah, I'd cutties with the relationship altogether.
And I,
and I couldn't have that.
(29:42):
So I had to, I had to reallyunderstand where they were.
In, in retrospect to their walk with God.
So I, I, I've kind of backed off andallowed them to just have their own,
their own experiences as I do now.
They're grown now, so they,they, they're living there now.
My grandson, mygranddaughter, she's in Texas.
(30:03):
I talk to her periodically, but mygrandson that I have here, you know,
I have a little bit more say now.
He, he's a, he's autistic one, but he'sa very, he's, he's a, he's a sponge.
Mm-hmm.
But I have to be real careful with my son.
'cause my son is a veryintelligent, he, he's, he's like me.
(30:25):
He just, he just not, he's notall the way scripture biblically,
but he's a thinker, philosopher.
So some of the things that hetalks about have a lot of validity.
You know, like he's the typethat he's not, he doesn't, he's
not trying to shelter my, seemy grandson from the world.
So my son listens to rap, so heallows my grandson to hear it, period.
(30:51):
I mean, some periodically.
And I, and I said, well, don'tyou think that he says, he
says he's gonna get it anyway.
He said, but if I can't be a best friend.
And I can't help him and I can't teachhim the truth of the, of what's going on.
He said, what kind of father would I be?
And I had, I had to, I had toagree with that to a, to a degree.
I said, so my prayer, as I prayed aboutit, I've just prayed that God will
(31:13):
will move him as his life changes,that he'll move more back onto the
spiritual side and he'll be able toguide my grandson further that way.
But I do understand what he'ssaying because he's saying that
what happens is they're goingto get that, I don't care how.
How church you have when they go toschool, they're gonna have to socialize,
they're gonna hear that kind of stuff.
They're gonna hear people cursing,they're gonna hear and he says, but,
(31:36):
but me teaching him, you'll havea, you know, have a better handle
on, on being able to, to handle it.
I was like, okay.
So tho I, those are the challengesthat I have that's trying to be
a, a, a, a good Christian fatherand grandfather and counselor.
My son was, will sit down with meand we, we'd be going, I mean, we're,
we're a lot better now because, youknow, we, we talk across the board.
(31:59):
I don't, I I don't ever try to put himdown or talk about him or what have you.
'cause he, he, one thing Ilove about him, he's, he, he's
very, he's well thought out.
He's, he's not gonna sayanything just haphazardly.
So you, you know, and then we can have,we can have a, a civilized conversation.
Whether we agree or not, that's adifferent ball game, but at least I can
have a, a realistic conversation with himand I, and I, and I'm grateful for that.
(32:25):
Very interesting.
It's, it's kind, it'shard, but it's, but it's a,
it's a, it's, it is almost the samebattle I have with the homeless.
You know?
I have to, I have to sit.
No, really, I have to sit down and wehave to have a real heart to heart.
Talk about where he is at, where I'm at.
You know, um, not a bad kid, you know,he's, he's, uh, he's working with
(32:47):
SpaceX, doing pretty well, takingcare of, taking care of business,
you know, he still drinks here andthere and, but very responsible.
So I have to, you know, I have togive, I have to give the props.
Where do.
And then we build from there.
So, okay,
(33:07):
Bernie.
Well, I'm, I'm, I'vegrown, my wisdom has grown.
My, my, my logical analysis has been,
it is just sail to a higher,uh, peak of aspiration.
So.
I feel fulfilled here today,
you know, you know, uh, uh, Dr.
(33:29):
Wright, when I hear your story,uh, uh, the, the sobriety, the,
the service, the studies, uh, and,uh, you're also an author, right?
You have a book?
Yes, sir. Okay.
What's, what's the name of the book?
Selfless, selflessness.
Selfishness to selflessness.
Okay.
Okay.
I got a couple, I got a couple more of itthat'll be on coming out pretty soon, but
(33:49):
this, it was about, it was written whenI was married, my first, my second wife.
And, uh.
I'm writing a book and my wife used totell me, I don't know how you writing
this book, and you the most selfish man.
I know.
Nah.
Mm mm
And it, but it, but, but, but when I hadto get real honest with myself, I realized
I was, 'cause there was a part of me thatI'm, uh, I'm writing now about the, uh.
(34:12):
Unfulfilled part that even to date,I don't think has ever been filled.
'cause I don't know what it is thatneeds to be go, that go in there, but
I know that humility was one of thethings that had, that had to take place.
And I think over periods of years, I've,I've become, I. A lot more humbler.
But I was, I was, I don't know, I just,um, I've always been, 'cause that's
(34:35):
the way I was raised, so I was raisedmaterialistically, so it was always
about me getting what I wanted, gettingwhat I wanted, getting what I wanted.
So that's kind of how that manifested.
So I think that just kind of, youknow, as part of the personality trait.
I had to work on as, as a Christian, justto be, to learn how to be more humble.
And I think working with homeless peopleand working, you know, in that field has
(34:59):
hell, has helped me with that immensely.
I had to humble myself in the churches,and we didn't talk about that part
because I, I had some real interestingchurch experiences that really, really,
you know, because I, I left church in 20 7, bowing not to ever work in a church
again because I'd been hurt church.
So church hurt.
Mm-hmm.
(35:20):
Forgetting that God had to show me that.
Regardless, they're still human.
They're still people just like you
and just because of the fact that you're,they did this or that doesn't mean that
they weren't called to preach the gospel.
They're still teaching you to correct thedoctrine correctly and and what have you.
And he says that's whatyou need to gravitate to.
Don't, don't push your focuson the man 'cause we all fall.
(35:42):
But it took me a while.
It took me a while to, to get that,
that's the achilles heel for me.
You know, um, uh, hearing, uh, youknow, all of that and, and, and, and
your whole story, uh, you know, it's,it's, you know, I, I don't hear.
(36:07):
Perfection.
But I do hear persistence.
Yes, sir. Um, uh, so Iwant to end it with this.
If someone listening right now,wherever you are, uh, wherever
that they may be, uh, they're,they're on the edge of giving up.
They might be on the edge of giving up.
It might be maybe, uh, on their marriage.
(36:29):
Uh, maybe on their sobriety,uh, maybe on their faiths.
What would you say to them in this moment?
First of all, they need to examinewhere they are, and they need to
get real honest about their faith.
Do I truly believe in JesusChrist as my Lord and Savior?
(36:52):
Did I, am I really married?
Because my, my, my secondmarriage wasn't a real marriage
because I didn't get, I didn't followany, I just got married outta convenience.
Mm.
We stayed married 20years, but it wasn't real.
So examine where you really are, you know?
(37:13):
Are you in love?
What is it to be in love?
Do you know what beingin love actually is?
So I would tell people that, that to,to really take, do some self-examination
to, and get real, real honest withwhere you really are before you start
making any decisions to, to going anyfurther or any to even moving ahead.
Or moving back because you, you, you canmove, you'll make a move going back and
(37:36):
regret it or you'll make a move forwardand it gets worse because I haven't taken
the time to be honest with my own self,you know, step two of alcoholics not that
came to believe that the power greaterthan myself can restore me to sanity.
So came, came to believe, and the onlyway I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna have
(37:58):
to have to really have to do some soulsearching and some real examinations.
Like, like, like, uh, Berniesays, Bernie says, well, you know,
enlightened because there's somethings I just had never looked at.
And somebody says thatsomebody speak speaks to you.
It's your spirit, yourheart, not your head.
'cause we, this is whatgets us in trouble.
(38:19):
'cause we, we know everything.
I can figure stuff out.
But the truth of the matter, if youget honest, will go to your heart.
In your heart, it was where the,the true, true answers come from.
Because that's where God is.
That's where God is.
So I would tell people on, on theedge before, before you do something
rash because you know, you know,we, we, we know You realize that.
(38:41):
I believe that everybody is,has, is, has a calling and God is
calling us to do certain things.
And that if we can, if we here listen,sit still and listen for that still
small voice, you know that God, Godwill, God will show up and God will
turn life around for you as he is done.
So many in the past just look at so manyof the past lives have changed, you know,
(39:02):
and that he wants to do the same for you.
You know, and on, uh, the podcastthat I do, uh, I, that was my, that
would be my cue to say It's that part.
It's that part.
Amen.
It's that part.
It's that part.
It's that part.
Amen.
It's that part right there.
God bless you.
Uh, Dr. Wright, thank youso much for joining us.
(39:24):
Uh, we really appreciate
Oh, a pleasure, man.
Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure.
And that's the talk of the times.
On behalf of the co-host BernieBrown, we thank you for listening and
we hope it compels you into actionor triggers some mindful thought
about the times in which we live.
We also invite you to check outthe Logical Lawyer, Bernie Brown
(39:46):
and the It's that part podcast withyours truly, Jesse Lee Hammonds
wherever you listen to your podcast.
And for even more, Bernie, check out hisbook on Amazon, a prosecutor's analysis
of Personal Supernatural Experiences.
Which is a collection of fascinatingstories awaiting your verdict of fact
(40:07):
fiction, fabrication, or fantasy.
You decide you can also connectwith Bernie on his website,
the logical attorney.me.
That's the logical attorney.me andconnect with me at it's that part.com
where you can also access both.
Podcast and now you've got it.
(40:29):
It's the talk of the Times
at the intersection of logic and truth.
This is the Logical lawyer
and it's that part, exploring legal,social, and cultural issues with
insight, clarity, and purpose,truth and logic, sharp and clear
(40:52):
insight and hope we bring it.
Where truth,
the.
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