October 11, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode, Paul speaks with occupational therapist Cynthia Miller-Lautman, whose work bridges sensory science and neurodiversity-affirming practice. From creating sensory-safe spaces in schools and clinics to reframing “behaviours” as communication, Cynthia shares decades of wisdom shaped by her clinical work, her family life, and her collaborations with educators and parents.
Together, we explore the eight senses, how to set up simple but powerful microsensory safe spots at home or in classrooms, and why sensory tools must be seen as supports—not rewards. Cynthia also shares practical strategies for parents, teachers, and therapists to stabilize regulation and reframe challenging behaviours with empathy.
Guest: Cynthia Miller-Lautman – Occupational Therapist, Educator, and Host of Swinging Upside Down
Key Quotes
- “Sensory is not a reward. Sensory is a human need.” – Cynthia Miller-Lautman
- “Behaviours are often signals—our detective work is figuring out what’s really going on.”
- “Parents, teachers, and therapists must become sensory detectives to help kids (and adults) find ‘just right.’”
Resources & Links
- Cynthia’s course and webinars: https://courses.cynthiamillerlautman.com (Listeners can use the code sensory20 to get 20% off at checkout
- Cynthia’s podcast: Swinging Upside Down
- Upcoming talk: November 6 at the Montreal Teachers Convention, Bonaventure Hotel
- Website & resources: cynthiamillerlautman.com
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cynthiamillerlautmanot
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cynthiamillerlautman
- TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@cynthiamillerlautman
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cynthiamillerlautman
Connect With Us
- Learn more about the Neurodiversity Voices Podcast: www.neurodiversityvoices.com
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Sensory Science and Neurodiversity
05:52 Cynthia's Journey: Learning Through Experience
16:39 Understanding the Eight Senses
22:34 Creating Sensory Safe Spaces
27:29 Reframing Behaviour: Signals of Dysregulation
35:01 Sensory Needs Across All Ages
Disclaimer:
The content provided in this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paul Cruz (00:04):
Hello and welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices
Podcast. I'm your host, PaulCruz, and I'm thrilled to have
you join me on this journey ofexploration, advocacy, and
celebration of neurodiversity.Together, we'll have meaningful
conversations, share inspiringstories, and challenge
misconceptions aboutneurodiversity. This podcast is
(00:28):
for everyone, whether you'reneurodivergent yourself, an
educator, a parent, or justsomeone curious to learn more.
My goal is to amplify voices,foster understanding, and spark
change in the way we view andsupport neurodiversity.
I'm so excited to have you as wecelebrate the beauty of diverse
minds and work toward a moreinclusive future. So sit back,
(00:53):
relax, and let's get started.Welcome to the Neurodiversity
Voices Podcast. You're listeningto the Neurodiversity Voices
Podcast. I'm Paul Cruz, proudadvocator with lives in the
balance, where together we'rebuilding a world of compassion,
collaboration, and hope forevery child.
Today's guest is Cynthia MillerLotman, an occupational
(01:17):
therapist whose work bridgessensory science and
neurodiversity affirmingpractice. From her formative
years at Summit School totraining with the Cree Board of
Health, she's learned to watchthe person and to build sensory
safe spaces that turn so calledbehaviors into signals we can
(01:37):
support. We'll unpack the eightsenses, show how to set up a
microsensory safe spot at schoolor home, and talk about changes
clinics and classrooms can makesensory regulation today?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (02:03):
Oh, Kate, thank you. Yes. When I
think back to my earliest days,I realized that I didn't learn a
lot of what I know now in myschooling. So I really needed to
learn on the job. So I had myfirst stag, sorry, my last stag
as an occupational therapist ata special needs school.
And it was there that I met anoccupational therapist who was
(02:23):
my mentor. And I still credither for how she taught me how to
think about sensory. I wasgetting lost in all the
assessments and the tools andall the lingo. And as you say,
like the science part of it. AndI was having trouble of how to
communicate it in a report to ateacher.
And so my first alone client, Iwas working with a young student
(02:44):
who was autistic and he was nonspeaking and he had very, very
limited eye contact. And so hewould kind of do his own thing
until we got into the sensoryroom. And that's where I learned
to be an occupational therapistwho does sensory activities.
Because I would roll him, bouncehim on a ball, give him
vibration, give him a massage,and he would like come alive. He
(03:07):
would start making eye contactand actually communicating with
small words.
He would smile and giggle andactually have lots of circles of
communication. So I learnedreally early that by doing
sensory activities, it canreally help someone communicate
and form bonds andrelationships. And so that was
really that stuck with me, thatfirst client that I worked with.
(03:31):
And later on, I moved on and hadmy own children. And that was
probably the next experiencethat really taught me.
I had first a very colicky firstborn baby and I had no idea what
I was doing. And I started tolearn how just typically
developing what we thoughttypically developing children
can have sensory issues frombirth. They need to be rocked
and cuddled and bounced andsoothed. So that taught me again
(03:55):
and my brain was going and I wasthinking so much about that. And
comes to my third daughter andmy third child.
And when she was born, shedeveloped meningitis. She was
five days old and she spent alot of time in the hospital. And
any parent that has had apremature baby or a child that
gets sick can know the impact ofall those tubes and things on
(04:17):
their children and how much thatcan create a mini sensory trauma
for them. And that's where Istarted to learn how
hospitalizations and dentaloffices and all of that can
shape how people respond to theworld and sensory world. So that
was another learning.
And then my last story, reallysticks with me, and this was
(04:39):
really ten years into mypractice, but again, I was still
learning. I had a mom come whodesperately wanted to be part of
all the therapy sessions. And Iloved it because to me, the
parents are hand in hand. It'snot me just doing the therapy
outside and the parents watch.They're part of it.
And she and her son taught methat sometimes the first words
(05:00):
can take place during a sensoryactivity. So after eighteen
weeks of working together, hergoal was her son to talk, but we
did that through sensoryexperiences. And I'll never
forget, she was sitting in theswing with him in my office with
a cushion on him and swingingback and forth. And he said his
first words and the tears ofjoy. I learned how important it
(05:23):
is to involve the parents.
It's not remove the child and dothe therapy. It to me, it's
really a family process. And Ispent equal time working with
mom as I did with a child,because it's both. As parents,
we don't know this journey andit's new and we don't have a
roadmap for our neuro diversechildren. So it's really
(05:43):
important that we work hand inhand and there's equal time for
the parents.
So that's my last story that Ithink really shaped me.
Paul Cruz (05:52):
You often say, watch the person. What does that look
like in real time when you aremeeting someone for the first
session?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (06:01):
So I'm always observing. That was one
thing I learned as an OT is thatall these tests are important,
but your observation skills areeven more. So when I say watch a
person, I mean, I'd actually askthe person if they can speak, I
would ask them. If it's a littlechild, what do you want to try
first? What do you like?
And I would ask. If they cannotspeak, I would ask their
(06:24):
caregiver, their parentaccompanying them. If it's
someone older, I would ask theparent if it's for a child, or I
would ask the children if it'sfor their parent to tell me a
little bit about. But then thewatching what's really the
watching is what do they go toin my sensory room? Do they go
to the mats?
Do they go to the bean bag? Dothey go try to swing on that
swing right away? And I would bewatching these things for clues.
(06:47):
Are they a little clumsy? Arethey bumping into things?
Can they not actually take offtheir jacket because they can't
really feel where their body is?Can they not untake off their
shoes or take off their coat?All of that I'd be watching and
with a little sensory lens to,to say, so it's not like they
can't take off, but why can'tthey take off their coat? Why
(07:07):
are they going towards theswing? I'm starting to form
questions and a hypothesis onthe person, but watching is the
most important.
That's why I need to spend timewith the clients. And you can't
do that in a short period oftime. You need to see them also
on different days so you canknow, what they're like. And
that's why I love it. Parentsand teachers know the most
(07:28):
because they're with them allthe time.
And I see a tiny snapshot.
Paul Cruz (07:36):
Let's ground the science without the jargon. How
do you explain the eight senses,especially touch, vestibular and
proprioception as the base forregulation?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (07:48):
Yeah. When I give my course to people,
I always marvel. Even theprofessionals, we're not sure.
It's all these terms and jargonin our head. So I love that
because the senses we learn inkindergarten, most of them, not
all of them.
And there's eight of them. And Iwill go through them all if
that's okay. And I'll tell you alittle bit about each one. And
I'm going to start with thethree main ones. So there's the
(08:10):
touch vestibular andproprioceptive senses.
So the touch sense you'velearned about in kindergarten,
you know that that is how youfeel touch, but did you know
there's light touch and deeptouch? And people respond
differently to both of thosesenses. Someone could be craving
deep touch to help them calmdown, but could not stand the
(08:30):
light feeling of a scratchyshirt on their sleeve. Or if
someone is approached with lighttouch, they might hit you if
they're in high stress level,but they might really be craving
that deep touch of likesomething weighted or cozy
blanket around them. So that'sthe touch system in a nutshell.
It's developing in utero whenbabies are developing and it can
(08:51):
be immediately affected whenchildren have had
hospitalizations. When adultsare hospitalized, our touch
system needs to be activated. Weneed to be touched to have it
working on just right. So whenthere are situations that make
it unsafe or you feel threatenedthat can affect your touch
system in a nutshell. The secondmost important sense is, and
(09:11):
they're equally important, isyour vestibular sense.
So this sense is really like twolittle inner ear circular canals
that sit like this in your innerear. And they sense they're
super sensitive to sensemovement. If you're off balance,
your head is tipped, if you needto re correct. But
unfortunately, some people donot feel just right on their
vestibular system. So two waysthey could feel too much or too
(09:34):
little.
So a too much vestibular systemwould be they cannot tolerate
the car or spinning or theirparents bouncing them up and
down. They feel sick, they cry,they don't want it. So that is
either they could feel on highto linear, so back and forth
like a swing or rotational,which a lot of people can get
(09:54):
sick quite easily from. Sothat's the vestibular system in
a nutshell. But in a sense, whatI look for is are people feeling
too much or too little?
If they're feeling too much,they feel sick usually and will
refuse to do something. But ifthey feel too little, they might
go out looking for vestibular.So there'll be swinging and
getting out of their chair andrunning and spinning, or maybe
(10:16):
subtly keeping moving their headand rocking in their chair. So
that's already telling me thattheir vestibular system might
not be on just right. Andthey're trying to get there.
The third most important sense.And again, a sense you probably
didn't learn about inkindergarten is the
proprioceptive sense. And thisis the sense that you can feel
where your body is in space withyour eyes closed. So I could
touch my nose with my eyesclosed and not miss it. I could
(10:40):
get to my nose.
And this sense is working in thebackground. So most people do
not know it's there, but whenit's not working on just right,
you know, and you know itbecause you're uncoordinated.
You can't quite feel where yourbody is. You may then develop
messy writing because you can'tfeel your hand. It might be a
bit clumsy at sports becauseyour body just doesn't sense
(11:01):
exactly where that racket is orwhere that ball is.
And so it's really working inthe background, but it can cause
a whole bunch of havoc in a kidthat doesn't feel enough. So you
may have someone that doesn'tfeel enough of their
proprioceptive system. So someof them go out to get it. So
they'll be leaning on things andthey'll be reaching for things
and looking for deep pressurebecause it actually gets them to
(11:22):
just write. And someone who isreally good with their purpose,
they feel a lot.
These are the kids and adultsthat are really good at sports.
They are hyper athletes and theycan do perform really well
because they have a really goodtuned sense of that. So that's
in a really small nutshell, theproprioceptive system. And then
we have the five other senses,which I'll go through just a
(11:42):
little quicker, but you probablyknow most of them. The first is
the taste system and any parentor someone that knows someone
that is a picky eater, as wemight say, which I feel is a bit
more of a negative term, butselective eaters, the way we
like to say it now is that theyare sensitive sometimes to taste
and it affects them so much.
They don't want to take touch anew food and they don't want to
(12:04):
eat certain foods. They'rereally go after predictable
foods because they it feels toomuch in their mouth. So that's
the taste system in a nutshell.But the taste system is really,
really, really closely affectedby the touch system. So usually
when someone is having a tastedifficulty, there's something
going on in their touch system.
The next sense is the sense ofsmell, which we all, again, all
(12:26):
know, but it's also directlyrelated to taste. When you smell
something that's not good, it'shuman nature and it's a
protective mechanism to not eatit. Right? We don't eat garbage.
We don't eat food that'sspoiled, but some people feel
too much on the sense and theirsense of smell is so strong.
They can't walk into a room withcertain kinds of smells. And
(12:46):
this makes it hard. This makesit hard to be in a typical world
with smells and differentexperiences. Again, when there's
a smell sensitivity, I'm usuallyseeing another regulation
problem in the touch vestibularand proprioceptive sense.
Usually something also a cluethere that something's not on
just right.
Then there's the auditory sense.And anyone who has been
(13:09):
sensitive to noise or hastrouble sleeping when there's
noise will know this sense. Whensomething is too loud or hurts
your ears, you don't want to bethere and you cover it and you
move away. And this is really,really disruptive and can be
really hard for someone who isfeeling too much on this system
to stay in a crowded place, togo to the movies, to go to the
(13:31):
grocery store. But again,there's a clue there.
When the auditory system is noton just right and responding too
much on high, what might happenis one, the person might plug
their ears and make their ownnoises so that they can block
out the other noises. So itlooks like they're seeking
auditory, but they are, but theyare comfort zone of auditory.
(13:53):
And the second thing they mightdo is run away and leave the
environment. And yet we saythat's a behavior. Often they're
just trying to get what theyneed, But that auditory system
is an indicative thatsomething's going on most likely
in the touch vestibular andproprioceptive sense.
The next sense that's againimportant is, but also not as
important as those three mainsenses, is your visual sense.
(14:14):
And this is where you might seesomeone who is very overwhelmed
by visual experiences. So youmight say, okay, they can watch
a video game and play it andplay it. By the end of that
video game, they're vibrating.It's like it was too much for
them.
The other thing could be inclassroom or a doctor's office.
So the lights, those neon lightsthat are so bright take a toll
(14:35):
on all of us. But someone who isfeeling too much to their visual
system might really have a lotof trouble concentrating because
of that bright light.Distracting walls, busy walls,
flashing lights. All of thesethings can be really hard,
especially for someone autisticindividuals talk about this a
lot.
That their peripheral vision isreally, really, really strong.
(14:55):
So they look to the side andthey see all of those signs that
you and I might be able toignore and say, Hey, it's a
behavior, just pay attention.But that's not so easy for
someone who has a really strongperipheral vision. So you can
see that it can look like abehavior, but really their
visual system is not on justright. Again, the clue is in the
(15:16):
touch vestibular andperpoceptive sense.
Also probably dysregulationgoing on there. And the last
sense, which is not new, butnewer on the field of science in
the senses is the interocepticsystem. And I have learned a lot
in the last little while aboutthat system, but it's everything
to do with your internal bodysenses. So are you hungry,
(15:38):
thirsty, tired? Are you feelingstressed?
Is your heart beating? Do youhave to go to the bathroom? So
to me, this is like a wholebunch of senses all in one, but
I'm learning a lot about theinteroceptive and there's people
doing some great work on that.And again, if the interoceptive
system is not on just right, I'dbe looking at the touch
vestibular and proprioceptivesystems to increase activity
(16:00):
there to help regulate thosesenses, to help them be even
able to feel an internal bodycue. So if you don't feel good
in your touch and yourvestibular and your perceptive
system, there's like very littlechance you're going to be able
to feel all those internal bodycues, which is why you see some
neurodiverse people running outof the room quickly to go to the
bathroom or someone with ADHD isnot learning, has not learned to
(16:21):
feel that cue of I've got to goto bathroom.
So it happens at the last secondor oops, I forgot to eat because
I didn't have that internalhunger cue. And so suddenly I'm
ravenous or now I'm really in abad mood. So in a nutshell, that
is the eight senses.
Paul Cruz (16:39):
Families need usable, not perfect. When translating
complex sensory science, what doyou keep and what do you leave
out so it stays actionable?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (16:51):
Right. I think I already kind of use some
of the lingo, but I myself hadto clarify how do you say it and
explain it to parents andtherapists, even a psychologist,
a social worker, the teacherworking with the child. And I
really like to use the justright language theory. It's
like, if you are just right onyour senses, that's just right.
You're able to participate.
(17:12):
You're able to do the classroomactivity. You're able to do the
work. You're able to eat yourmeal without disruptions, but
that is just right. Anything onhigh would be feeling like on
overload to that sense. So Ireally explained the senses as I
did in kind of, are you justright?
Are you feeling too much on highor are you feeling too little?
(17:33):
Are you on low? Do you need moreof it because you can't go get
it yourself? So you need helpgetting enough or maybe you can
go get it yourself. So you'reseeking a lot of movement
because you're trying to get tojust right.
So basically, that's thelanguage I use. And when I think
about things, I'm like, what isthe person trying to get? Are
they trying to get to justright? And are they going about
it the right way? Or is itreally disruptive and hurtful
(17:56):
sometimes to them?
So that's the theory in general.There is a lot more complexity
when you go into therapy worldand assessments. There's really
a lot of nuances. And that is atime when you're with a
therapist and occupationaltherapist, especially who knows
sensory, they would work on muchmore fine tuning of those
(18:17):
skills. But in general, whenwe're trying to help our
families and our teachers andour therapists have a safer
sensory environment, we need tothink about just right and how
do we get there.
Paul Cruz (18:29):
If we walked into a space you helped set up, what
would we see and why?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (18:36):
I like to talk about the three
different spaces I would set upbecause there's the classroom,
there's a home, and then there'sa therapy office or dental or
medical office. But in aclassroom, when I walked into a
classroom, I would want to see aspace in a corner or in one part
of the room that is sensorysafe. And by what I mean by
that, I would mean that thelights are dimmer or there's a
(18:58):
sheet over a table or there's atent. There's something really
comfortable to sit on, a beanbagchair, a mat, a pillow. I would
want to make sure that in thatspace there was access to
something touch vestibular andproprioception.
So could there be a littlerocking chair or an office chair
if you don't have access to arocking chair? Could there be a
weighted lap pillow or aweighted animal if it's littler
(19:21):
kids that is give somethingweighted that we know activates
the proprioceptive and the touchsystem? Is there something
vibration that you can have?Like we have vibrating snakes
and little sensory tubes thatthey can have access to, which
can really help get their systemto just right. So I'd really
want to see a sensory safecorner.
It doesn't have to be expensive.You can buy the vibration
(19:43):
handheld tools at thepharmacist, at the drugstores
and the weighted things I'vemade them before. I take a sock
and I fill it with beans and Isew the end shot in dried beans
and you can, they can wear thaton them. So it can be simple. It
can be inexpensive and you cando it with an old couch cushion
and an old curtain that you putover a table or an old sheet.
(20:07):
So that would be a classroom. IfI could, if it was ideal, I
would stack when I walked intothat classroom, there would be
the sensory corner. And thenthere would be at least one wall
when the children had to focusthat had nothing on it, that
just had the essentials on it.Maybe the SMART Board where they
have to focus, but there wouldnot be artwork all around that.
So someone with a very strongperipheral sense of vision would
(20:27):
not be looking at all of that.
So I would have at least onewall where they could turn when
there's a test or when they needto focus to look at. So that's a
nutshell in a classroom. I wouldalso have though the light
covers, the neon light covers.So you didn't have that strong
neon light all day and I wouldhope to have nice open windows.
At home, there's two differentways.
(20:48):
Some people live in a smallapartment and they don't have a
lot of space. So say they mightneed a removable sensory space.
I still encourage that at home,there's a space somewhere that a
child or adult who's feeling toomuch has a space to go that is
sensory safe. Again, mimickingthat classroom setup. Something
on the floor where you can getdown to the floor and feel
(21:08):
comfortable, maybe a rockingchair or an office chair that
you can get some vestibular,something weighted, something
vibration, maybe noise cancelingheadphones.
If you need to tune out thenoisy family around you, But it
needs to have a space that theycan go to and it's not a
punishment and it's not areward. It's somewhere they can
go when they need to regulate.Same thing in a therapist's
(21:29):
office. When we bring ourchildren or when we ourselves go
to a doctor or a therapist, it'susually stressful, especially if
you're talking psychology,social work, speech therapy.
There's a lot of demands on thekids or the adults that are
going there and emotionaldemands, and that can trigger
stress.
So again, I really like to seean office and it's not
traditional. I haven't seen manypeople do it, but people are
(21:51):
starting. That is not just yousitting in an office chair, that
there is a place on the floorwith a match or a bean bag. And
all the things I talked about, aweighted lap pillow. So that
person can feel grounded whilethey're talking to you or doing
these hard therapy.
So the same concepts, but. Andpeople say, but have a small
office. I've done it in supersmall offices. I've redesigned
(22:14):
with a social worker recentlyand we redesigned our office. We
turned off the upper lights.
We brought in a lamp and shecould turn on that light and she
had the corner with her bean bagand her sensory tools. It just
changed the dynamic of heroffice and the feeling when you
walked in, it became a reallywelcoming space.
Paul Cruz (22:34):
And how we use tool matters. How do you coach staff
to shift from earn a break tosupports to do the work?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (22:43):
Well, one of them logo, the mottos I
say is sensory is not a reward.Sensory is a human need. We
would not not give someone theirmedication because they were
good or bad. We would give itbecause they need it. We give
glasses to people who needglasses.
We need to have sensoryregulation opportunities for
everyone in our classrooms, inour therapy offices, in our
(23:05):
homes, because we may need it atdifferent times. So that mindset
has to shift. You don't get togo to the sensory corner because
you've been good or you did yourwork. You get to go to the
sensory corner so you can doyour work. So you can be the
best part of you at school, homeor therapy.
And what do I do to teach it? Ioften reframe. So if I hear a
(23:27):
teacher, therapist, parents saythey're being bad or it's a
behavior and they're just sothey're trying to get me mad.
I'll reframe. I'll literally saythe words, you know what?
It might feel that way, butthey're actually telling you
something. They're actuallycommunicating something to you.
If they're showing you thatthey're upset and they're
leaving the room or yourclassroom, they're telling you
it's too much. Now it's yourdetective work to learn what is
(23:50):
too much in that classroom. AndI keep saying it again.
I really find that we all needmore and more reminders to
change how we think aboutcertain things. So I do that a
lot and I give trainings. I findthat trainings really, really
help. When we speak to a group,it's like people are open to
listening. And one of myfavorite things I do in my
course is I teach what it feelslike to be sensory overwhelmed.
(24:14):
So I do a sensory activity thatmakes the entire audience feel
overwhelmed sensory wise withtheir touch vestibular and
proprioceptive system. And bydoing that, that's when I get
people believing, because whenwe can really feel what it's
like to be dysregulated sensorywise, we're much more empathetic
and we're much more attuned tothe students and people we work
(24:37):
with.
Paul Cruz (24:40):
Let's talk about what gets labeled as behavior. How do
you help adults see defiance orinattention as signals of
dysregulation instead?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (24:51):
Well, again, I refrain when, and I
teach the detective kind ofpatterns. So if someone, for
example, would say a student'srocking in their chair all the
time and they're falling offtheir chair. I would say, woah,
they're rocking in their chairbecause they're telling you they
need to rock in their chair.What is rocking? Linear
vestibular back and forth.
So maybe we need to provide themwith an office chair or a
(25:12):
rocking chair that they can workat, or they have rocking stools
and they call them T stools.There's tons of different
seating opportunities for kidsand adults too, to wiggle while
they learn. So that would beone, it's again, reframing why
it's happening. And often whenwe are frustrated as an adult
and don't know why something'shappening, we tend to blame.
(25:33):
Whereas if we can learn to ask aquestion, why I do feel we can
change that negativity.
Another really common one I seeis they keep getting out of
their chair. They're alwaysmoving. They're disrupting
everyone in the classroom. And Isee this a lot in the littler
grades when they're learning tosit and stay still and really a
(25:54):
four year old can sit about fiveor ten minutes. So that's not
long.
So sometimes I see circle timesthat last thirty minutes. Well,
of course they're going to getup. And remember that is the
average child that would sit forfive to ten minutes. So then you
have a child that has needs morevestibular and more movement and
more touch. So they're going toget up in that circle time and
(26:15):
move around and maybe come up toyou and touch you.
And that seems annoying, butthey need it. I'm going to
remember the age we're workingwith. And if it is someone
older, what is theirdevelopmental age? Then their
attention and sitting ability isthat age. So that's another
common one I see.
And I'm just saying, well, whydon't we get the whole group up
and move? We can all do thisstanding up and we can rock
(26:36):
while we're learning about frogsand science and whatever you're
learning about. I see anotherone that I hear they're refusing
to eat. This is common atlunchtime, sometimes at schools
when kids are staying for lunchand you have the lunch monitors,
or parents that are reallyworried about their kid not
eating. And I reframe that withsaying it's not refusing to eat.
(26:57):
It's maybe they're reallysensitive to their taste system.
Maybe they're a super taster andthey really taste the pepper in
that food. Maybe they, theirsense of smell is on high and
they feel too much. They reallycan't stand that strong smell of
fish or whatever that is. Soagain, it's a reframing so we
can get away from forcing eatingbecause that does a whole other,
(27:19):
bout of damage and trauma tosomeone who has to eat that food
before they get to go out forrecess.
Paul Cruz (27:29):
Support also means safety and consent. With items
like weighted tools or movementactivities, how do you handle
dosage, consent, and groupsafety?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (27:41):
Right. The big safety concern I have is
with weighted equipment. I loveweighted equipment. However,
there is rules and you can neverput 10, more than 10% of body
weight, of weight on a child oradult. Especially if they are
low muscle tone, you know, theyhave trouble moving.
So like an elderly person, forexample, or a child who has
(28:03):
motor problems, but it doesn'tmean it's not good for them, but
just never go up past that 10%.So with weighted stuff, that's
really clear. And I don't leavethem unattended, especially if
we're using it in a group, in aschool, you really need to be
attentive. You don't just go offsomewhere else while they're
wrapped in a big weightedblanket and walk away because
(28:23):
that's when problems can happenand they could get scared one
thing, or if they're low muscletone or have a breathing
difficulty, it could bedangerous. But the other thing I
really have to be careful with,and this is consent and
everyone's like, well, how doyou get consent if someone's non
speaking?
And what I love and what Ilearned early on is that most
people can tell you. I remembermy grandmother in the late
(28:45):
stages of dementia and shecouldn't speak anymore because
she could barely move. But boy,did her eyes tell me what she
liked and what she didn't. Andshe could turn her head and she
could look at me and she couldtell me she wanted that touch
and that head rub or thatmassage to continue. So just
because someone's non speakingor can't move very well, doesn't
mean they can't tell you.
(29:05):
So you really want to watch theeyes. The eyes that people have
said are the windows to thesoul. And I do believe they tell
you a lot. They tell you whensomeone's scared, eye contact
and eye expression can reallygive you a lot of feedback. So
I'm always watching.
I put something weighted onsomeone and they push it away, I
take it off. It's not my, it's,I'm not there to force. I'm
(29:28):
there to expose and teach andtry and let's be a detective. I
would never force weightedequipment on someone, but it
doesn't mean that cause they tryit once. I don't try it again
because just because maybe thefirst time they felt that
weighted lizard or animal onthem, they felt that light touch
of the scratchy material andthey couldn't tolerate it, but
they really need it.
So the next time we try it,they're wearing a blanket on top
(29:50):
of them. Then we put theweighted thing and guess what?
Like it. So you keep trying, youkeep being a detective. And
honestly, I don't always know.
I have to try with the kids. Theother thing is that when someone
pulls away at all, so they jerkaway, that is telling you
something. That is consent tosay, I don't like this. And it's
important to respect that. And Isee, unfortunately, a lot of in
(30:12):
adult child relationships thatare not the parent that there's,
you know, touch by instinct, wewant to touch someone to help
them calm down, but that's notalways the place to start.
And you really need to be in atrusting relationship because
anyone who is defensive,especially to touch will react
to that. And you couldtraumatize them and delay all
(30:32):
the work you do. So reallyimportant to look at the eye
contact, look at the bodylanguage when you're working
with someone and being thatdetective.
Paul Cruz (30:44):
Sensory needs aren't just for kids. What does sensory
safe design look like in dentalor medical offices, waiting
rooms or workplaces?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (30:53):
Right. You know, we talk about sensory
in terms of kids and that is anabsolute myth. It is in
everyone, in all agepopulations, in many different
diagnoses and many differenttypical developing people have
different experiences ofsensory. So yes, it's not just
for kids. It's all through theages and through many different
(31:14):
individual diagnoses.
So one of the common things thatis very difficult for someone
with sensory difficulties,especially if they have taste
and sensitivities, is going tothe dentist. These kids, adults
often need to be put undergeneral anesthetic to get basic
treatments like maybe a toothpulled because they are so
fearful and they feel so much.So they are rightfully scared
(31:34):
because they are feeling a lotmore pain or anxiety compared to
someone who doesn't feel that.So that waiting room is a
stressful place for a kid thatknows or an adult that knows
they have to do somethingstressful. So that waiting room
should be just like thatclassroom.
Is there a sensory safe spotthat someone can go to? And
there is dental. If you Googleit, you can see dental offices,
especially India. They're doinga lot of this that are sensory
(31:57):
safe. You can look at images ofit, but is there a rocking
chair, an office chair?
You know, you go to an officeand you're sitting side by side
with people stuck like thisreally close contact. Is there a
space they can have to relax andfeel just right before they go
in? Because if they're not on itjust right before you go in,
good luck in the procedure. Soagain, it would be a space with
(32:19):
maybe a mat, a washable beanbag. Cause I know for men, for
hygiene reasons, it can't bejust material.
It might need to be like aplasticized material, but you
can get those rocking chair,office chair, just so that
there's movement. Maybe ifyou're willing to get some of
the vibration tubes and avibrating mat, they have
waterproof covers for them.Someone could go lie on it
before their session. And thatis sensory safe. And it's
(32:42):
happening.
I was in the chair in a dentaloffice or especially a dental
office, let's say they useweight by, because they have to,
when they're taking an x-ray,they put a weighted pad over you
to take that x-ray to protectyou. But it feels so good if
you've ever had it. You're like,this is great because it's
providing a proprioceptivefeedback. You feel grounded. And
(33:04):
when we're stressed thatproprioceptive feedback helps us
calm down and get to just right.
So I would wear that. I wouldhave someone wear that the whole
time. If I knew that they weresensory dysregulated in the
dental office, that would stayon them. So that's not something
new they need to buy that wouldbe on them. I would also
possibly even have vibrationtools that the person could have
(33:24):
while they're doing, because ifinstead of focusing here, they
could be holding that vibrationtool in their hand and getting
the vibration to their hand.
So you know that when we havepain, we often grab something
and hold it. So it would be thatsame kind of theory as giving
them what they need so that theycan cope with that stressful
situation. In a medical office,it would look quite similar. I
(33:46):
wish in most pediatric offices,waiting rooms, that's sometimes
you're waiting a long time. Andif you have a child that is
neurodiverse and sensorydysregulated, that is very hard.
So again, I would have thesensory set of space in all of
these. I would have mats on thefloor. I would maybe have a
sensory tent that a child couldgo in that is calming without
the bright lights of the office.And you need to have to have
(34:08):
safe tools. I wouldn't probablyhave the vibration tools and
everything there because kidscan take them apart and get into
trouble if they're not watched.
But I would have a sensory safespace they could escape to so
they could get to just right.And when you were in the office,
how many times are parentslistening and while their
neurodiverse child who issensory dysregulated is running
and they can't listen. So thedoctor's giving them important
(34:30):
information, but they can'tlisten because their child is
running or crying or moving. Soagain, I would have a little
corner with a mat, maybe alittle sensory tent right in the
office. I know they're small,but I've seen it done.
And in that place, might have aweighted lap pad that the child
could sit on them, maybeearphones, noise cancelings,
they could put them on. I wouldhave some of those options. So
(34:51):
it's safer for parents too, sothey can be regulated themselves
when they're listening toimportant medical information.
Paul Cruz (35:01):
Words shape care. How do you keep practicing
neurodiversity affirming insidemedical systems that can
pathologize?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (35:10):
Right. I've learned a lot about this
and I'm continuing to learn. Iknow my colleagues and I
practice regularly talking andlearning and reading about the
new neuro affirming tools andterms to use. And one of them
that I'm really using, and Ithink you've heard me say here,
I don't say they're noncommunicative because everyone's
communicating. I say nonspeaking because that's very
different than communicatingbecause if we can blink, we're
(35:33):
communicating.
But non speaking is not usingwords to speak. So that is an
example of one that we're reallytrying to use a lot more.
Paul Cruz (35:44):
Many listeners are juggling limited time and
energy. What's your minimumviable plan to stabilize
regulation at home or school?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (35:54):
Right. So there's no cookie cutter plan
and that would be unsafe to do.If you were a parent or teacher
trying to make somethingtomorrow, set up a sensory
corner, set up a little sheetover a couch or over a table and
see. Put something comfy, put acushion inside. That's where I
would start.
But you wanna also think aboutwhat's going on in the touch
(36:16):
vestibular and proprioceptivesense. Are you providing
activities to your child thatare vestibular and
proprioceptive? So touch, weknow that might be massage. That
might be weighted equipment,which is also the proprioceptive
sense. When we put weights onourselves and move through that,
we can activate.
So like a weighted hand weight,you can move through that. So
(36:37):
think about weights, never morethan 10% of the body weight. And
then with vestibular, when ourchild is not listening and
mealtime was a mess, did theymove enough before dinner so
that they have the ability tosit and eat their dinner? Maybe
not. Well, you try again nexttime.
Okay. Maybe they need to runoutside for a few minutes
before, or maybe we need to spinthem in an office chair for a
little bit. Maybe they need todo a little jump on a
(36:59):
trampoline, an inside one or anoutside one, or little jump on
your couch, maybe holding yourhands. But these activities can
help regulate to just write sothat remember we talked about
those other senses can beactivated, like eating and
smelling and tasting and all ofthose other senses that are
important at home.
Paul Cruz (37:19):
Let's end with what's next and something listeners can
try. Which frontier, likeinteroception or stress
literacy, are you most excitedto develop? And what would you
ask listeners to try this week?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (37:34):
So for myself, I'm really interested in
the interoceptive system. I'mtrying to understand how we can
help it more and how we canteach the attunement. So I'm
working with a psychologist tolearn more about that and how
she's implying that into herpractice with her clients. And
I'm also developing a talk onhow stress affects sensory
(37:55):
regulation and vice versa. How,when you're not sensory
regulated, it can increase yourstress level.
And so we say we're stressed,but maybe we're not sensory
regulated or we've somethingstressful has happened and
suddenly we're not sensoryregulated. So that is what I'm
excited about. But for theparents, like what can you try
tomorrow? If you're a teacherlistening to therapist, become a
(38:15):
sensory detective, be thatperson that can help the person
you love or are caring for orteaching, figure out how to get
to just right. Become thatdetective and don't give up
because you didn't figure itout.
Try again. The tool you triedtoday might not work and
actually it might work today andnot work tomorrow, but be that
detective. That is the one bestthing you can give someone who
(38:36):
is not able to get to just writeon their own.
Paul Cruz (38:41):
Cynthia, where can we find your work or resources? And
do you have any upcoming talks,trainings or guides?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (38:49):
Yes. So I just recorded a four hour live
webinar, which is on demand, andyou can find that at
And I'm really excited foranyone in Montreal, Quebec. I'm
giving this talk at theTeachers' Convention in Montreal
in November, November 6 at theBonaventure Hotel. So I'm very
excited for that because I lovedoing that to educators.
(39:11):
You can also, I have a podcastcalled Swinging Upside Down
where I record every one episodea year when it's meaningful. You
can find stuff there. And I'm,you can also look for me,
Cynthia Miller Lawton dot com onsocial media.
Paul Cruz (39:26):
Doctor. Cynthia, thank you. Links are in the show
notes, so thank you for coming.
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (39:31):
Doctor. Jose
Paul Cruz (39:37):
To our listeners, if this conversation resonated with
you, please share this episode.Don't forget to subscribe to the
Neurodiversity Voices podcastwherever you get your podcasts
and even rate our podcast onyour favorite podcast app. If
you have any questions, ideas,or stories you'd like to share,
(39:57):
please feel free to write us orsign up to be a guest on our
podcast website atwww.neurodiversityvoices.com.
We'd love to hear from you.Until next time, take care, stay
curious, and keep celebratingthe beauty of diverse minds.
(40:17):
Thanks for listening to theNeurodiversity Voices Podcast
Hello and welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices
Podcast. I'm your host, PaulCruz, and I'm thrilled to have
you join me on this journey ofexploration, advocacy, and
celebration of neurodiversity.Together, we'll have meaningful
conversations, share inspiringstories, and challenge
misconceptions aboutneurodiversity. This podcast is
(00:28):
for everyone, whether you'reneurodivergent yourself, an
educator, a parent, or justsomeone curious to learn more.
My goal is to amplify voices,foster understanding, and spark
change in the way we view andsupport neurodiversity.
I'm so excited to have you as wecelebrate the beauty of diverse
minds and work toward a moreinclusive future. So sit back,
(00:53):
relax, and let's get started.Welcome to the Neurodiversity
Voices Podcast. You're listeningto the Neurodiversity Voices
Podcast. I'm Paul Cruz, proudadvocator with lives in the
balance, where together we'rebuilding a world of compassion,
collaboration, and hope forevery child.
Today's guest is Cynthia MillerLotman, an occupational
(01:17):
therapist whose work bridgessensory science and
neurodiversity affirmingpractice. From her formative
years at Summit School totraining with the Cree Board of
Health, she's learned to watchthe person and to build sensory
safe spaces that turn so calledbehaviors into signals we can
(01:37):
support. We'll unpack the eightsenses, show how to set up a
microsensory safe spot at schoolor home, and talk about changes
clinics and classrooms can makesensory regulation today?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (02:03):
Oh, Kate, thank you. Yes. When I
think back to my earliest days,I realized that I didn't learn a
lot of what I know now in myschooling. So I really needed to
learn on the job. So I had myfirst stag, sorry, my last stag
as an occupational therapist ata special needs school.
And it was there that I met anoccupational therapist who was
(02:23):
my mentor. And I still credither for how she taught me how to
think about sensory. I wasgetting lost in all the
assessments and the tools andall the lingo. And as you say,
like the science part of it. AndI was having trouble of how to
communicate it in a report to ateacher.
And so my first alone client, Iwas working with a young student
(02:44):
who was autistic and he was nonspeaking and he had very, very
limited eye contact. And so hewould kind of do his own thing
until we got into the sensoryroom. And that's where I learned
to be an occupational therapistwho does sensory activities.
Because I would roll him, bouncehim on a ball, give him
vibration, give him a massage,and he would like come alive. He
(03:07):
would start making eye contactand actually communicating with
small words.
He would smile and giggle andactually have lots of circles of
communication. So I learnedreally early that by doing
sensory activities, it canreally help someone communicate
and form bonds andrelationships. And so that was
really that stuck with me, thatfirst client that I worked with.
(03:31):
And later on, I moved on and hadmy own children. And that was
probably the next experiencethat really taught me.
I had first a very colicky firstborn baby and I had no idea what
I was doing. And I started tolearn how just typically
developing what we thoughttypically developing children
can have sensory issues frombirth. They need to be rocked
and cuddled and bounced andsoothed. So that taught me again
(03:55):
and my brain was going and I wasthinking so much about that. And
comes to my third daughter andmy third child.
And when she was born, shedeveloped meningitis. She was
five days old and she spent alot of time in the hospital. And
any parent that has had apremature baby or a child that
gets sick can know the impact ofall those tubes and things on
(04:17):
their children and how much thatcan create a mini sensory trauma
for them. And that's where Istarted to learn how
hospitalizations and dentaloffices and all of that can
shape how people respond to theworld and sensory world. So that
was another learning.
And then my last story, reallysticks with me, and this was
(04:39):
really ten years into mypractice, but again, I was still
learning. I had a mom come whodesperately wanted to be part of
all the therapy sessions. And Iloved it because to me, the
parents are hand in hand. It'snot me just doing the therapy
outside and the parents watch.They're part of it.
And she and her son taught methat sometimes the first words
(05:00):
can take place during a sensoryactivity. So after eighteen
weeks of working together, hergoal was her son to talk, but we
did that through sensoryexperiences. And I'll never
forget, she was sitting in theswing with him in my office with
a cushion on him and swingingback and forth. And he said his
first words and the tears ofjoy. I learned how important it
(05:23):
is to involve the parents.
It's not remove the child and dothe therapy. It to me, it's
really a family process. And Ispent equal time working with
mom as I did with a child,because it's both. As parents,
we don't know this journey andit's new and we don't have a
roadmap for our neuro diversechildren. So it's really
(05:43):
important that we work hand inhand and there's equal time for
the parents.
So that's my last story that Ithink really shaped me.
Paul Cruz (05:52):
You often say, watch the person. What does that look
like in real time when you aremeeting someone for the first
session?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (06:01):
So I'm always observing. That was one
thing I learned as an OT is thatall these tests are important,
but your observation skills areeven more. So when I say watch a
person, I mean, I'd actually askthe person if they can speak, I
would ask them. If it's a littlechild, what do you want to try
first? What do you like?
And I would ask. If they cannotspeak, I would ask their
(06:24):
caregiver, their parentaccompanying them. If it's
someone older, I would ask theparent if it's for a child, or I
would ask the children if it'sfor their parent to tell me a
little bit about. But then thewatching what's really the
watching is what do they go toin my sensory room? Do they go
to the mats?
Do they go to the bean bag? Dothey go try to swing on that
swing right away? And I would bewatching these things for clues.
(06:47):
Are they a little clumsy? Arethey bumping into things?
Can they not actually take offtheir jacket because they can't
really feel where their body is?Can they not untake off their
shoes or take off their coat?All of that I'd be watching and
with a little sensory lens to,to say, so it's not like they
can't take off, but why can'tthey take off their coat? Why
(07:07):
are they going towards theswing? I'm starting to form
questions and a hypothesis onthe person, but watching is the
most important.
That's why I need to spend timewith the clients. And you can't
do that in a short period oftime. You need to see them also
on different days so you canknow, what they're like. And
that's why I love it. Parentsand teachers know the most
(07:28):
because they're with them allthe time.
And I see a tiny snapshot.
Paul Cruz (07:36):
Let's ground the science without the jargon. How
do you explain the eight senses,especially touch, vestibular and
proprioception as the base forregulation?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (07:48):
Yeah. When I give my course to people,
I always marvel. Even theprofessionals, we're not sure.
It's all these terms and jargonin our head. So I love that
because the senses we learn inkindergarten, most of them, not
all of them.
And there's eight of them. And Iwill go through them all if
that's okay. And I'll tell you alittle bit about each one. And
I'm going to start with thethree main ones. So there's the
(08:10):
touch vestibular andproprioceptive senses.
So the touch sense you'velearned about in kindergarten,
you know that that is how youfeel touch, but did you know
there's light touch and deeptouch? And people respond
differently to both of thosesenses. Someone could be craving
deep touch to help them calmdown, but could not stand the
(08:30):
light feeling of a scratchyshirt on their sleeve. Or if
someone is approached with lighttouch, they might hit you if
they're in high stress level,but they might really be craving
that deep touch of likesomething weighted or cozy
blanket around them. So that'sthe touch system in a nutshell.
It's developing in utero whenbabies are developing and it can
(08:51):
be immediately affected whenchildren have had
hospitalizations. When adultsare hospitalized, our touch
system needs to be activated. Weneed to be touched to have it
working on just right. So whenthere are situations that make
it unsafe or you feel threatenedthat can affect your touch
system in a nutshell. The secondmost important sense is, and
(09:11):
they're equally important, isyour vestibular sense.
So this sense is really like twolittle inner ear circular canals
that sit like this in your innerear. And they sense they're
super sensitive to sensemovement. If you're off balance,
your head is tipped, if you needto re correct. But
unfortunately, some people donot feel just right on their
vestibular system. So two waysthey could feel too much or too
(09:34):
little.
So a too much vestibular systemwould be they cannot tolerate
the car or spinning or theirparents bouncing them up and
down. They feel sick, they cry,they don't want it. So that is
either they could feel on highto linear, so back and forth
like a swing or rotational,which a lot of people can get
(09:54):
sick quite easily from. Sothat's the vestibular system in
a nutshell. But in a sense, whatI look for is are people feeling
too much or too little?
If they're feeling too much,they feel sick usually and will
refuse to do something. But ifthey feel too little, they might
go out looking for vestibular.So there'll be swinging and
getting out of their chair andrunning and spinning, or maybe
(10:16):
subtly keeping moving their headand rocking in their chair. So
that's already telling me thattheir vestibular system might
not be on just right. Andthey're trying to get there.
The third most important sense.And again, a sense you probably
didn't learn about inkindergarten is the
proprioceptive sense. And thisis the sense that you can feel
where your body is in space withyour eyes closed. So I could
touch my nose with my eyesclosed and not miss it. I could
(10:40):
get to my nose.
And this sense is working in thebackground. So most people do
not know it's there, but whenit's not working on just right,
you know, and you know itbecause you're uncoordinated.
You can't quite feel where yourbody is. You may then develop
messy writing because you can'tfeel your hand. It might be a
bit clumsy at sports becauseyour body just doesn't sense
(11:01):
exactly where that racket is orwhere that ball is.
And so it's really working inthe background, but it can cause
a whole bunch of havoc in a kidthat doesn't feel enough. So you
may have someone that doesn'tfeel enough of their
proprioceptive system. So someof them go out to get it. So
they'll be leaning on things andthey'll be reaching for things
and looking for deep pressurebecause it actually gets them to
(11:22):
just write. And someone who isreally good with their purpose,
they feel a lot.
These are the kids and adultsthat are really good at sports.
They are hyper athletes and theycan do perform really well
because they have a really goodtuned sense of that. So that's
in a really small nutshell, theproprioceptive system. And then
we have the five other senses,which I'll go through just a
(11:42):
little quicker, but you probablyknow most of them. The first is
the taste system and any parentor someone that knows someone
that is a picky eater, as wemight say, which I feel is a bit
more of a negative term, butselective eaters, the way we
like to say it now is that theyare sensitive sometimes to taste
and it affects them so much.
They don't want to take touch anew food and they don't want to
(12:04):
eat certain foods. They'rereally go after predictable
foods because they it feels toomuch in their mouth. So that's
the taste system in a nutshell.But the taste system is really,
really, really closely affectedby the touch system. So usually
when someone is having a tastedifficulty, there's something
going on in their touch system.
The next sense is the sense ofsmell, which we all, again, all
(12:26):
know, but it's also directlyrelated to taste. When you smell
something that's not good, it'shuman nature and it's a
protective mechanism to not eatit. Right? We don't eat garbage.
We don't eat food that'sspoiled, but some people feel
too much on the sense and theirsense of smell is so strong.
They can't walk into a room withcertain kinds of smells. And
(12:46):
this makes it hard. This makesit hard to be in a typical world
with smells and differentexperiences. Again, when there's
a smell sensitivity, I'm usuallyseeing another regulation
problem in the touch vestibularand proprioceptive sense.
Usually something also a cluethere that something's not on
just right.
Then there's the auditory sense.And anyone who has been
(13:09):
sensitive to noise or hastrouble sleeping when there's
noise will know this sense. Whensomething is too loud or hurts
your ears, you don't want to bethere and you cover it and you
move away. And this is really,really disruptive and can be
really hard for someone who isfeeling too much on this system
to stay in a crowded place, togo to the movies, to go to the
(13:31):
grocery store. But again,there's a clue there.
When the auditory system is noton just right and responding too
much on high, what might happenis one, the person might plug
their ears and make their ownnoises so that they can block
out the other noises. So itlooks like they're seeking
auditory, but they are, but theyare comfort zone of auditory.
(13:53):
And the second thing they mightdo is run away and leave the
environment. And yet we saythat's a behavior. Often they're
just trying to get what theyneed, But that auditory system
is an indicative thatsomething's going on most likely
in the touch vestibular andproprioceptive sense.
The next sense that's againimportant is, but also not as
important as those three mainsenses, is your visual sense.
(14:14):
And this is where you might seesomeone who is very overwhelmed
by visual experiences. So youmight say, okay, they can watch
a video game and play it andplay it. By the end of that
video game, they're vibrating.It's like it was too much for
them.
The other thing could be inclassroom or a doctor's office.
So the lights, those neon lightsthat are so bright take a toll
(14:35):
on all of us. But someone who isfeeling too much to their visual
system might really have a lotof trouble concentrating because
of that bright light.Distracting walls, busy walls,
flashing lights. All of thesethings can be really hard,
especially for someone autisticindividuals talk about this a
lot.
That their peripheral vision isreally, really, really strong.
(14:55):
So they look to the side andthey see all of those signs that
you and I might be able toignore and say, Hey, it's a
behavior, just pay attention.But that's not so easy for
someone who has a really strongperipheral vision. So you can
see that it can look like abehavior, but really their
visual system is not on justright. Again, the clue is in the
(15:16):
touch vestibular andperpoceptive sense.
Also probably dysregulationgoing on there. And the last
sense, which is not new, butnewer on the field of science in
the senses is the interocepticsystem. And I have learned a lot
in the last little while aboutthat system, but it's everything
to do with your internal bodysenses. So are you hungry,
(15:38):
thirsty, tired? Are you feelingstressed?
Is your heart beating? Do youhave to go to the bathroom? So
to me, this is like a wholebunch of senses all in one, but
I'm learning a lot about theinteroceptive and there's people
doing some great work on that.And again, if the interoceptive
system is not on just right, I'dbe looking at the touch
vestibular and proprioceptivesystems to increase activity
(16:00):
there to help regulate thosesenses, to help them be even
able to feel an internal bodycue. So if you don't feel good
in your touch and yourvestibular and your perceptive
system, there's like very littlechance you're going to be able
to feel all those internal bodycues, which is why you see some
neurodiverse people running outof the room quickly to go to the
bathroom or someone with ADHD isnot learning, has not learned to
(16:21):
feel that cue of I've got to goto bathroom.
So it happens at the last secondor oops, I forgot to eat because
I didn't have that internalhunger cue. And so suddenly I'm
ravenous or now I'm really in abad mood. So in a nutshell, that
is the eight senses.
Paul Cruz (16:39):
Families need usable, not perfect. When translating
complex sensory science, what doyou keep and what do you leave
out so it stays actionable?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (16:51):
Right. I think I already kind of use some
of the lingo, but I myself hadto clarify how do you say it and
explain it to parents andtherapists, even a psychologist,
a social worker, the teacherworking with the child. And I
really like to use the justright language theory. It's
like, if you are just right onyour senses, that's just right.
You're able to participate.
(17:12):
You're able to do the classroomactivity. You're able to do the
work. You're able to eat yourmeal without disruptions, but
that is just right. Anything onhigh would be feeling like on
overload to that sense. So Ireally explained the senses as I
did in kind of, are you justright?
Are you feeling too much on highor are you feeling too little?
(17:33):
Are you on low? Do you need moreof it because you can't go get
it yourself? So you need helpgetting enough or maybe you can
go get it yourself. So you'reseeking a lot of movement
because you're trying to get tojust right.
So basically, that's thelanguage I use. And when I think
about things, I'm like, what isthe person trying to get? Are
they trying to get to justright? And are they going about
it the right way? Or is itreally disruptive and hurtful
(17:56):
sometimes to them?
So that's the theory in general.There is a lot more complexity
when you go into therapy worldand assessments. There's really
a lot of nuances. And that is atime when you're with a
therapist and occupationaltherapist, especially who knows
sensory, they would work on muchmore fine tuning of those
(18:17):
skills. But in general, whenwe're trying to help our
families and our teachers andour therapists have a safer
sensory environment, we need tothink about just right and how
do we get there.
Paul Cruz (18:29):
If we walked into a space you helped set up, what
would we see and why?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (18:36):
I like to talk about the three
different spaces I would set upbecause there's the classroom,
there's a home, and then there'sa therapy office or dental or
medical office. But in aclassroom, when I walked into a
classroom, I would want to see aspace in a corner or in one part
of the room that is sensorysafe. And by what I mean by
that, I would mean that thelights are dimmer or there's a
(18:58):
sheet over a table or there's atent. There's something really
comfortable to sit on, a beanbagchair, a mat, a pillow. I would
want to make sure that in thatspace there was access to
something touch vestibular andproprioception.
So could there be a littlerocking chair or an office chair
if you don't have access to arocking chair? Could there be a
weighted lap pillow or aweighted animal if it's littler
(19:21):
kids that is give somethingweighted that we know activates
the proprioceptive and the touchsystem? Is there something
vibration that you can have?Like we have vibrating snakes
and little sensory tubes thatthey can have access to, which
can really help get their systemto just right. So I'd really
want to see a sensory safecorner.
It doesn't have to be expensive.You can buy the vibration
(19:43):
handheld tools at thepharmacist, at the drugstores
and the weighted things I'vemade them before. I take a sock
and I fill it with beans and Isew the end shot in dried beans
and you can, they can wear thaton them. So it can be simple. It
can be inexpensive and you cando it with an old couch cushion
and an old curtain that you putover a table or an old sheet.
(20:07):
So that would be a classroom. IfI could, if it was ideal, I
would stack when I walked intothat classroom, there would be
the sensory corner. And thenthere would be at least one wall
when the children had to focusthat had nothing on it, that
just had the essentials on it.Maybe the SMART Board where they
have to focus, but there wouldnot be artwork all around that.
So someone with a very strongperipheral sense of vision would
(20:27):
not be looking at all of that.
So I would have at least onewall where they could turn when
there's a test or when they needto focus to look at. So that's a
nutshell in a classroom. I wouldalso have though the light
covers, the neon light covers.So you didn't have that strong
neon light all day and I wouldhope to have nice open windows.
At home, there's two differentways.
(20:48):
Some people live in a smallapartment and they don't have a
lot of space. So say they mightneed a removable sensory space.
I still encourage that at home,there's a space somewhere that a
child or adult who's feeling toomuch has a space to go that is
sensory safe. Again, mimickingthat classroom setup. Something
on the floor where you can getdown to the floor and feel
(21:08):
comfortable, maybe a rockingchair or an office chair that
you can get some vestibular,something weighted, something
vibration, maybe noise cancelingheadphones.
If you need to tune out thenoisy family around you, But it
needs to have a space that theycan go to and it's not a
punishment and it's not areward. It's somewhere they can
go when they need to regulate.Same thing in a therapist's
(21:29):
office. When we bring ourchildren or when we ourselves go
to a doctor or a therapist, it'susually stressful, especially if
you're talking psychology,social work, speech therapy.
There's a lot of demands on thekids or the adults that are
going there and emotionaldemands, and that can trigger
stress.
So again, I really like to seean office and it's not
traditional. I haven't seen manypeople do it, but people are
(21:51):
starting. That is not just yousitting in an office chair, that
there is a place on the floorwith a match or a bean bag. And
all the things I talked about, aweighted lap pillow. So that
person can feel grounded whilethey're talking to you or doing
these hard therapy.
So the same concepts, but. Andpeople say, but have a small
office. I've done it in supersmall offices. I've redesigned
(22:14):
with a social worker recentlyand we redesigned our office. We
turned off the upper lights.
We brought in a lamp and shecould turn on that light and she
had the corner with her bean bagand her sensory tools. It just
changed the dynamic of heroffice and the feeling when you
walked in, it became a reallywelcoming space.
Paul Cruz (22:34):
And how we use tool matters. How do you coach staff
to shift from earn a break tosupports to do the work?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (22:43):
Well, one of them logo, the mottos I
say is sensory is not a reward.Sensory is a human need. We
would not not give someone theirmedication because they were
good or bad. We would give itbecause they need it. We give
glasses to people who needglasses.
We need to have sensoryregulation opportunities for
everyone in our classrooms, inour therapy offices, in our
(23:05):
homes, because we may need it atdifferent times. So that mindset
has to shift. You don't get togo to the sensory corner because
you've been good or you did yourwork. You get to go to the
sensory corner so you can doyour work. So you can be the
best part of you at school, homeor therapy.
And what do I do to teach it? Ioften reframe. So if I hear a
(23:27):
teacher, therapist, parents saythey're being bad or it's a
behavior and they're just sothey're trying to get me mad.
I'll reframe. I'll literally saythe words, you know what?
It might feel that way, butthey're actually telling you
something. They're actuallycommunicating something to you.
If they're showing you thatthey're upset and they're
leaving the room or yourclassroom, they're telling you
it's too much. Now it's yourdetective work to learn what is
(23:50):
too much in that classroom. AndI keep saying it again.
I really find that we all needmore and more reminders to
change how we think aboutcertain things. So I do that a
lot and I give trainings. I findthat trainings really, really
help. When we speak to a group,it's like people are open to
listening. And one of myfavorite things I do in my
course is I teach what it feelslike to be sensory overwhelmed.
(24:14):
So I do a sensory activity thatmakes the entire audience feel
overwhelmed sensory wise withtheir touch vestibular and
proprioceptive system. And bydoing that, that's when I get
people believing, because whenwe can really feel what it's
like to be dysregulated sensorywise, we're much more empathetic
and we're much more attuned tothe students and people we work
(24:37):
with.
Paul Cruz (24:40):
Let's talk about what gets labeled as behavior. How do
you help adults see defiance orinattention as signals of
dysregulation instead?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (24:51):
Well, again, I refrain when, and I
teach the detective kind ofpatterns. So if someone, for
example, would say a student'srocking in their chair all the
time and they're falling offtheir chair. I would say, woah,
they're rocking in their chairbecause they're telling you they
need to rock in their chair.What is rocking? Linear
vestibular back and forth.
So maybe we need to provide themwith an office chair or a
(25:12):
rocking chair that they can workat, or they have rocking stools
and they call them T stools.There's tons of different
seating opportunities for kidsand adults too, to wiggle while
they learn. So that would beone, it's again, reframing why
it's happening. And often whenwe are frustrated as an adult
and don't know why something'shappening, we tend to blame.
(25:33):
Whereas if we can learn to ask aquestion, why I do feel we can
change that negativity.
Another really common one I seeis they keep getting out of
their chair. They're alwaysmoving. They're disrupting
everyone in the classroom. And Isee this a lot in the littler
grades when they're learning tosit and stay still and really a
(25:54):
four year old can sit about fiveor ten minutes. So that's not
long.
So sometimes I see circle timesthat last thirty minutes. Well,
of course they're going to getup. And remember that is the
average child that would sit forfive to ten minutes. So then you
have a child that has needs morevestibular and more movement and
more touch. So they're going toget up in that circle time and
(26:15):
move around and maybe come up toyou and touch you.
And that seems annoying, butthey need it. I'm going to
remember the age we're workingwith. And if it is someone
older, what is theirdevelopmental age? Then their
attention and sitting ability isthat age. So that's another
common one I see.
And I'm just saying, well, whydon't we get the whole group up
and move? We can all do thisstanding up and we can rock
(26:36):
while we're learning about frogsand science and whatever you're
learning about. I see anotherone that I hear they're refusing
to eat. This is common atlunchtime, sometimes at schools
when kids are staying for lunchand you have the lunch monitors,
or parents that are reallyworried about their kid not
eating. And I reframe that withsaying it's not refusing to eat.
(26:57):
It's maybe they're reallysensitive to their taste system.
Maybe they're a super taster andthey really taste the pepper in
that food. Maybe they, theirsense of smell is on high and
they feel too much. They reallycan't stand that strong smell of
fish or whatever that is. Soagain, it's a reframing so we
can get away from forcing eatingbecause that does a whole other,
(27:19):
bout of damage and trauma tosomeone who has to eat that food
before they get to go out forrecess.
Paul Cruz (27:29):
Support also means safety and consent. With items
like weighted tools or movementactivities, how do you handle
dosage, consent, and groupsafety?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (27:41):
Right. The big safety concern I have is
with weighted equipment. I loveweighted equipment. However,
there is rules and you can neverput 10, more than 10% of body
weight, of weight on a child oradult. Especially if they are
low muscle tone, you know, theyhave trouble moving.
So like an elderly person, forexample, or a child who has
(28:03):
motor problems, but it doesn'tmean it's not good for them, but
just never go up past that 10%.So with weighted stuff, that's
really clear. And I don't leavethem unattended, especially if
we're using it in a group, in aschool, you really need to be
attentive. You don't just go offsomewhere else while they're
wrapped in a big weightedblanket and walk away because
(28:23):
that's when problems can happenand they could get scared one
thing, or if they're low muscletone or have a breathing
difficulty, it could bedangerous. But the other thing I
really have to be careful with,and this is consent and
everyone's like, well, how doyou get consent if someone's non
speaking?
And what I love and what Ilearned early on is that most
people can tell you. I remembermy grandmother in the late
(28:45):
stages of dementia and shecouldn't speak anymore because
she could barely move. But boy,did her eyes tell me what she
liked and what she didn't. Andshe could turn her head and she
could look at me and she couldtell me she wanted that touch
and that head rub or thatmassage to continue. So just
because someone's non speakingor can't move very well, doesn't
mean they can't tell you.
(29:05):
So you really want to watch theeyes. The eyes that people have
said are the windows to thesoul. And I do believe they tell
you a lot. They tell you whensomeone's scared, eye contact
and eye expression can reallygive you a lot of feedback. So
I'm always watching.
I put something weighted onsomeone and they push it away, I
take it off. It's not my, it's,I'm not there to force. I'm
(29:28):
there to expose and teach andtry and let's be a detective. I
would never force weightedequipment on someone, but it
doesn't mean that cause they tryit once. I don't try it again
because just because maybe thefirst time they felt that
weighted lizard or animal onthem, they felt that light touch
of the scratchy material andthey couldn't tolerate it, but
they really need it.
So the next time we try it,they're wearing a blanket on top
(29:50):
of them. Then we put theweighted thing and guess what?
Like it. So you keep trying, youkeep being a detective. And
honestly, I don't always know.
I have to try with the kids. Theother thing is that when someone
pulls away at all, so they jerkaway, that is telling you
something. That is consent tosay, I don't like this. And it's
important to respect that. And Isee, unfortunately, a lot of in
(30:12):
adult child relationships thatare not the parent that there's,
you know, touch by instinct, wewant to touch someone to help
them calm down, but that's notalways the place to start.
And you really need to be in atrusting relationship because
anyone who is defensive,especially to touch will react
to that. And you couldtraumatize them and delay all
(30:32):
the work you do. So reallyimportant to look at the eye
contact, look at the bodylanguage when you're working
with someone and being thatdetective.
Paul Cruz (30:44):
Sensory needs aren't just for kids. What does sensory
safe design look like in dentalor medical offices, waiting
rooms or workplaces?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (30:53):
Right. You know, we talk about sensory
in terms of kids and that is anabsolute myth. It is in
everyone, in all agepopulations, in many different
diagnoses and many differenttypical developing people have
different experiences ofsensory. So yes, it's not just
for kids. It's all through theages and through many different
(31:14):
individual diagnoses.
So one of the common things thatis very difficult for someone
with sensory difficulties,especially if they have taste
and sensitivities, is going tothe dentist. These kids, adults
often need to be put undergeneral anesthetic to get basic
treatments like maybe a toothpulled because they are so
fearful and they feel so much.So they are rightfully scared
(31:34):
because they are feeling a lotmore pain or anxiety compared to
someone who doesn't feel that.So that waiting room is a
stressful place for a kid thatknows or an adult that knows
they have to do somethingstressful. So that waiting room
should be just like thatclassroom.
Is there a sensory safe spotthat someone can go to? And
there is dental. If you Googleit, you can see dental offices,
especially India. They're doinga lot of this that are sensory
(31:57):
safe. You can look at images ofit, but is there a rocking
chair, an office chair?
You know, you go to an officeand you're sitting side by side
with people stuck like thisreally close contact. Is there a
space they can have to relax andfeel just right before they go
in? Because if they're not on itjust right before you go in,
good luck in the procedure. Soagain, it would be a space with
(32:19):
maybe a mat, a washable beanbag. Cause I know for men, for
hygiene reasons, it can't bejust material.
It might need to be like aplasticized material, but you
can get those rocking chair,office chair, just so that
there's movement. Maybe ifyou're willing to get some of
the vibration tubes and avibrating mat, they have
waterproof covers for them.Someone could go lie on it
before their session. And thatis sensory safe. And it's
(32:42):
happening.
I was in the chair in a dentaloffice or especially a dental
office, let's say they useweight by, because they have to,
when they're taking an x-ray,they put a weighted pad over you
to take that x-ray to protectyou. But it feels so good if
you've ever had it. You're like,this is great because it's
providing a proprioceptivefeedback. You feel grounded. And
(33:04):
when we're stressed thatproprioceptive feedback helps us
calm down and get to just right.
So I would wear that. I wouldhave someone wear that the whole
time. If I knew that they weresensory dysregulated in the
dental office, that would stayon them. So that's not something
new they need to buy that wouldbe on them. I would also
possibly even have vibrationtools that the person could have
(33:24):
while they're doing, because ifinstead of focusing here, they
could be holding that vibrationtool in their hand and getting
the vibration to their hand.
So you know that when we havepain, we often grab something
and hold it. So it would be thatsame kind of theory as giving
them what they need so that theycan cope with that stressful
situation. In a medical office,it would look quite similar. I
(33:46):
wish in most pediatric offices,waiting rooms, that's sometimes
you're waiting a long time. Andif you have a child that is
neurodiverse and sensorydysregulated, that is very hard.
So again, I would have thesensory set of space in all of
these. I would have mats on thefloor. I would maybe have a
sensory tent that a child couldgo in that is calming without
the bright lights of the office.And you need to have to have
(34:08):
safe tools. I wouldn't probablyhave the vibration tools and
everything there because kidscan take them apart and get into
trouble if they're not watched.
But I would have a sensory safespace they could escape to so
they could get to just right.And when you were in the office,
how many times are parentslistening and while their
neurodiverse child who issensory dysregulated is running
and they can't listen. So thedoctor's giving them important
(34:30):
information, but they can'tlisten because their child is
running or crying or moving. Soagain, I would have a little
corner with a mat, maybe alittle sensory tent right in the
office. I know they're small,but I've seen it done.
And in that place, might have aweighted lap pad that the child
could sit on them, maybeearphones, noise cancelings,
they could put them on. I wouldhave some of those options. So
(34:51):
it's safer for parents too, sothey can be regulated themselves
when they're listening toimportant medical information.
Paul Cruz (35:01):
Words shape care. How do you keep practicing
neurodiversity affirming insidemedical systems that can
pathologize?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (35:10):
Right. I've learned a lot about this
and I'm continuing to learn. Iknow my colleagues and I
practice regularly talking andlearning and reading about the
new neuro affirming tools andterms to use. And one of them
that I'm really using, and Ithink you've heard me say here,
I don't say they're noncommunicative because everyone's
communicating. I say nonspeaking because that's very
different than communicatingbecause if we can blink, we're
(35:33):
communicating.
But non speaking is not usingwords to speak. So that is an
example of one that we're reallytrying to use a lot more.
Paul Cruz (35:44):
Many listeners are juggling limited time and
energy. What's your minimumviable plan to stabilize
regulation at home or school?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (35:54):
Right. So there's no cookie cutter plan
and that would be unsafe to do.If you were a parent or teacher
trying to make somethingtomorrow, set up a sensory
corner, set up a little sheetover a couch or over a table and
see. Put something comfy, put acushion inside. That's where I
would start.
But you wanna also think aboutwhat's going on in the touch
(36:16):
vestibular and proprioceptivesense. Are you providing
activities to your child thatare vestibular and
proprioceptive? So touch, weknow that might be massage. That
might be weighted equipment,which is also the proprioceptive
sense. When we put weights onourselves and move through that,
we can activate.
So like a weighted hand weight,you can move through that. So
(36:37):
think about weights, never morethan 10% of the body weight. And
then with vestibular, when ourchild is not listening and
mealtime was a mess, did theymove enough before dinner so
that they have the ability tosit and eat their dinner? Maybe
not. Well, you try again nexttime.
Okay. Maybe they need to runoutside for a few minutes
before, or maybe we need to spinthem in an office chair for a
little bit. Maybe they need todo a little jump on a
(36:59):
trampoline, an inside one or anoutside one, or little jump on
your couch, maybe holding yourhands. But these activities can
help regulate to just write sothat remember we talked about
those other senses can beactivated, like eating and
smelling and tasting and all ofthose other senses that are
important at home.
Paul Cruz (37:19):
Let's end with what's next and something listeners can
try. Which frontier, likeinteroception or stress
literacy, are you most excitedto develop? And what would you
ask listeners to try this week?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (37:34):
So for myself, I'm really interested in
the interoceptive system. I'mtrying to understand how we can
help it more and how we canteach the attunement. So I'm
working with a psychologist tolearn more about that and how
she's implying that into herpractice with her clients. And
I'm also developing a talk onhow stress affects sensory
(37:55):
regulation and vice versa. How,when you're not sensory
regulated, it can increase yourstress level.
And so we say we're stressed,but maybe we're not sensory
regulated or we've somethingstressful has happened and
suddenly we're not sensoryregulated. So that is what I'm
excited about. But for theparents, like what can you try
tomorrow? If you're a teacherlistening to therapist, become a
(38:15):
sensory detective, be thatperson that can help the person
you love or are caring for orteaching, figure out how to get
to just right. Become thatdetective and don't give up
because you didn't figure itout.
Try again. The tool you triedtoday might not work and
actually it might work today andnot work tomorrow, but be that
detective. That is the one bestthing you can give someone who
(38:36):
is not able to get to just writeon their own.
Paul Cruz (38:41):
Cynthia, where can we find your work or resources? And
do you have any upcoming talks,trainings or guides?
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (38:49):
Yes. So I just recorded a four hour live
webinar, which is on demand, andyou can find that at
And I'm really excited foranyone in Montreal, Quebec. I'm
giving this talk at theTeachers' Convention in Montreal
in November, November 6 at theBonaventure Hotel. So I'm very
excited for that because I lovedoing that to educators.
(39:11):
You can also, I have a podcastcalled Swinging Upside Down
where I record every one episodea year when it's meaningful. You
can find stuff there. And I'm,you can also look for me,
Cynthia Miller Lawton dot com onsocial media.
Paul Cruz (39:26):
Doctor. Cynthia, thank you. Links are in the show
notes, so thank you for coming.
Cynthia Miller-Lautman (39:31):
Doctor. Jose
Paul Cruz (39:37):
To our listeners, if this conversation resonated with
you, please share this episode.Don't forget to subscribe to the
Neurodiversity Voices podcastwherever you get your podcasts
and even rate our podcast onyour favorite podcast app. If
you have any questions, ideas,or stories you'd like to share,
(39:57):
please feel free to write us orsign up to be a guest on our
podcast website atwww.neurodiversityvoices.com.
We'd love to hear from you.Until next time, take care, stay
curious, and keep celebratingthe beauty of diverse minds.
(40:17):
Thanks for listening to theNeurodiversity Voices Podcast
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It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.