August 4, 2025 • 52 mins
Angus Chan turned his early academic struggles into a mission to redesign education for everyone.
Angus Chan shares his deeply personal journey through higher education as a neurodivergent student and how those early struggles shaped his commitment to equity, inclusion, and educational reform.
We explore the evolving nature of autism understanding and why honouring cultural identity, holistic wellness, and student voice is essential in today’s classrooms. Angus reflects on the power of reciprocal teaching, how AI can enhance learning when used thoughtfully, and the role of collaboration among educators in fostering inclusive environments.
This conversation is a must-listen for anyone working toward a future where neurodiverse learners are not just supported, but celebrated.
Connect with Angus:
- https://www.activating-intelligence.com/
- LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/angusc1983/
- Blog - https://mrangusbeefblog.wordpress.com/
- Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/angusc83
- Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/angusc83
- YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@angusc1983
Connect With Us
- Learn more about the Neurodiversity Voices Podcast: www.neurodiversityvoices.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paul Cruz (00:04):
Hello, I'm your host Paul Cruz and welcome to the
Neurodiversity Voices podcastwhere we celebrate and amplify
the unique perspectives andexperiences of neurodiverse
individuals. I'm thrilled tohave you join us on this journey
of exploration, advocacy, andcelebration of neurodiversity.
Tayaba Khan (00:22):
I'm Tayaba Khan, your co host. Together, we'll
have meaningful conversations,share inspiring stories, and
challenge misconceptions aboutneurodiversity.
Paul Cruz (00:31):
This podcast is for everyone, whether you're
neurodivergent yourself, aneducator, a parent, or just
someone curious to learn more.Our goal is to amplify voices,
foster understanding, and sparkchange in the way we view and
support neurodiversity.
Tayaba Khan (00:48):
We're so excited to have you with us as we celebrate
the beauty of diverse minds andwork toward a more inclusive
future.
Paul Cruz (00:55):
So sit back, relax, and let's get started. Welcome
to the Neurodiversity Voicespodcast. Welcome to the show,
Angus.
Angus Chan (01:04):
Thanks, Paul. Thanks for having me. Good to see you,
Doctor. Khan. Thanks for beingwith me.
Yes. Can
Paul Cruz (01:10):
you share your journey in higher education and
what inspired you to focus onlearning assessment, curriculum
development, and studentsuccess?
Angus Chan (01:21):
Great. So my journey in higher education started in
02/2001, and it was rough atfirst. I flunked out of
university, SFU, wasted $20,000of my mom's dollars with 51, 53
credits and 1.91 GPA and noretakes in business
administration, but with helpand support managed to go back
(01:42):
in again in 2005 and, go on todo psychology and then a
master's in educationalpsychology. What this has led me
to while I was TAing from 2000onwards was that, well, there
are a lot of things I learnedthe hard way and I wish to help
students along the way. So theydon't have to learn the hard way
necessarily that I've gonethrough, others have gone
(02:02):
through.
So that was a prime motivationin sort of education in the post
secondary world. And I'll justpause from there. That's the
start of my journey.
Tayaba Khan (02:12):
Great. So your article on the history of
Asperger's syndrome and autismspectrum disorder is
fascinating. What motivated youto explore this topic and how
has your perspective evolvedaround this?
Angus Chan (02:26):
Right. My perspective continues to evolve
as the, spectrum of ASDcontinues to evolve. So in that
sense, when I wrote the article,I was in my graduate school and
I wanted a way to explore andarticulate where my
understanding of Asperger'ssyndrome has evolved. That's
(02:48):
what I was diagnosed with when Iwas young in the beginning. And
I could only learn from what myfamily has told me and what I
can learn from the interventioncenter back in Hong Kong and
what they did.
So it was a research project, areflection project, and at the
same time, it was a way to lookat how the diagnosis and the
(03:10):
labeling and the connotation ofAsperger's syndrome has evolved
from this process now that it'spart of the ASD spectrum. And
one thing that I kept in mind asI was writing this is that, you
know somebody with autism, youonly know that person with
autism. And even if I have itmyself, I really only know
myself and whoever I'm incontact with. So it was a good
(03:32):
way to remind myself and tocommunicate with readers that
even though Asperger's syndromeis no longer in use, if there
are people that still identifywith that or identify themselves
as that, then they have theirown sort of context.
Paul Cruz (03:47):
So your diversity statement emphasizes
acknowledging uniqueness inpursuing equity, quote end end
quote. How do you apply thisphilosophy in your work and
interactions with students andcolleagues?
Angus Chan (04:01):
Right, so in each of the roles that I would do this
with different partners in thissort of partnership. I work a
little differently for each. Solet's say I start with coworkers
in the administration or in theschool context, then I play my
(04:23):
role as either academic qualityassurance coordinator or
sessional instructor right now,or before I was a manager of
student services. So it depends,and I play to that role, working
with folks in their role in thatcontext. So the goal is the same
though.
It would be to work with staffand faculty for promoting
student success. And in theadministrative world right now,
(04:45):
I would work with them in termsof program reviews, course
evaluations, and beginning to dosome institutional research. And
then I have to pay attention towhat the faculty, the deans, the
sessional instructors, thetenured professors, what they
want. And then when I work as ainstructor, I work with other
instructors who have their wayof teaching the course. Work
(05:05):
with department heads, whichhave to manage the department.
And then I also work withstudents and student services,
for students they want to studyand complete their academic or
professional goals, or thestudent services that are there
to help the students. I payattention to what they want to
do and then see how I cancontribute to that.
Tayaba Khan (05:24):
That's very interesting. Your leadership
philosophy basically embracesthe idea of a reciprocal
relationship, right, in between,you know, between service and
leadership, and you kind oftalked about the service piece
here, right?
Angus Chan (05:38):
Yes.
Tayaba Khan (05:39):
So how you know, and you've already kind of, you
know, elaborated how you workwith staff, faculty, and
stakeholders. But what do youthink is the secret sauce that
kind of, you know, makes itwork? How how does this happen?
Angus Chan (05:53):
One thing I learned from working in the vulnerable
sector during my transitionperiod of graduating from a
master's in ed psych and thengoing back into teaching, it
took me seven years into thenonprofit sector. One thing I
learned from working withcounselors and government funded
agencies for youth transitiongroups that go into adulthood is
(06:14):
the idea of an informeddecision. And that I think this
works quite well in terms ofleadership, then we have
decisions to make. It's like theword problem we discussed
earlier. It's like, okay, that'sthe problem to be solved.
The question to be answered thisinformation and resources used
to answer those questions tosolve a problem. And then the
roles, skills, and so forth tomake the information work to
(06:34):
solve the problem. So in termsof relationally speaking, and in
terms of leadership, there aregoals to be accomplished, but
then how do we come to aninformed decision about how we
can allocate our resources andourselves time and effort to
accomplish those goals together?And the key here, the secret
sauce I think would be to dothis together. So sometimes it's
(06:55):
pushing, sometimes it's pulling,but we're in it together.
Paul Cruz (06:57):
You referenced a lyric from Phil Collins in your
teaching philosophy. How doesthis lyric resonate with your
approach to teaching andlearning?
Angus Chan (07:05):
Right. So, just in case, the lyric is from, one of
the Kyptho Collins song. It's,featured in the movie Tarzan.
And the lyric goes, In learningyou will teach and in teaching
you will learn. So again,continue with that sort of
reciprocal theme or thatcyclical theme there.
As an educator, I think if Istop learning, then I should
(07:28):
stop teaching. There's no pointanymore in that sense, because
it's like stagnant water, so tospeak, I were to use an analogy.
Me to keep going, I need to keepflowing. So in terms of that,
how I would apply this is, yes,I'm assigned to teach things. I
have curriculum guides I need tofollow.
I have learning outcomes that Iwould accomplish with my
(07:48):
students, but at the same time,the appropriate opportunities,
go, how can I do this better?What can help the students learn
more and what is going on withthe students right now? So it
isn't necessarily learning to,like, let's say a designation or
to become no more knowledgeable,although that's part of the
process. It's also learningabout the people I'm working
(08:10):
with and go like, okay, whatmakes them work? What makes them
tick?
One indication for me, as aneducator is, a success of
teaching somebody something isthat if they also want to teach
others, it doesn't have to beofficially, they become a
teacher or a tutor to do it, butif they start teaching each
other or just learning from eachother, yes, you can insert like
(08:32):
educational terms, scaffoldingand peer collaborative work,
anything like that, that theybegin to work with the concept
of skill and they start to teachand learn on their own. The
teacher then I believe has donemore of the job than just
transmitting information ortrying to teach a skill.
Tayaba Khan (08:49):
So I was talking to a family member of mine and I
have a teenage son and we werediscussing how the future
workforce is going to be acompletely different, you know,
realm compared to what we havebeen learning and what we have
been doing, what we have beentaught. So it's not just
teaching them the concepts now.It's more about, okay, how do
(09:12):
you develop the resilience tolearn new things, to do new
things? And how do youincorporate that with the rising
awareness of the differentneurodiverse types and how are
you going to bring this alltogether to make it work? Right?
So it's an interestingtransition, I think, in terms of
(09:33):
workforce in the future. AIdefinitely creates a, you know,
adds a new spice to the mix.Right? So, yes, please go ahead.
Angus Chan (09:43):
No, no, no. You might have a question. So if you
got a question, please ask me. Ihave some thoughts about that.
It gets all of them the idea ofteaching the next generation and
also the idea, let's say theemergence of AI, actually the
rising of AI.
One thing I'd say about that isas I work with students, more
schools, including the school Iteach at Alexander college,
they're trying to puttransferable skills as part of
(10:05):
their curriculum. It's like,okay, this is the reason why
you're learning this. And inadult education, it's not just
pedagogy, it's also andrologyand also hutabology, which is
like adult education and alsoself directed education. So it's
not just the more knowledgeableperson teaching less
knowledgeable people, althoughthat often is the case. So in
terms of activatingintelligence, I play around with
(10:27):
this a bit, and this came fromlike COVID because okay, COVID
came, everyone's has to doonline learning now.
And at the same time, thetechnology comes out, which
gives students more bit of anarms race edge. Cause there's
like Chegg and Course Hero andstuff like that. And ChatGPT
Copilot Gemini, whatever. So oneway I thought about this was
(10:47):
what if the courses were like,let's say a piano recital. Yes.
You can have like a Simply Pianoor whatever, and YouTube
tutorials that like, you don'tneed sheet music anymore. It's
like the notes coming down. It'sgreat.
Tayaba Khan (10:59):
Yeah.
Angus Chan (11:00):
However, it's still, the skill still remains in the
hands of the human being. As faras like, let's say piano goes.
So I play around with the ideaAI instead of artificial
intelligence, I make itactivating intelligence.
Interesting. Yes.
So whether it's math or writingor time management or life
skills coaching or whatever, aslong as human beings are what
(11:24):
they are, and this sounds a bitlike, you know, Bruce Lee
Marshall artsy, It's like, aslong as it's human and human
expression and humans aretrained to do that, then even
the technology can be used, notjust as a tool, but also as a
partner. And in some, like, inthe media or in the way they
portray, like, machines and AI,Matrix is one portrayal is like,
(11:46):
oh, the machine's But taking inother cultures it's like, well,
a lot of the film is like, well,machine is your partner. And so
in that sense, if the humans cantrain the skill, activating
intelligence, for example, math.And we talked about math can
like turn people's brains off orfry their brains. Right.
But if the skill is trained togo like, you know what, you can
do simple calculations, youknow, your bed mass or whatever
(12:08):
in your head. And, you know, ifyou can, if you realize what you
can do with those things andwhat you can use it even in
statistics, then it's like,okay, I don't need a calculator.
So in the spirit of the physicsfilm, it's like the thing with
Neo that he doesn't have tododge bullets anymore. Cause he
has gone beyond that. So yes, Ihave to sign a class where you
(12:30):
can learn college levelstatistics without a calculator.
So yes, it can be done. That'san
Tayaba Khan (12:37):
example. Good hope for me. There's hope for me.
Yeah. For a person who runs awayfrom maths.
Angus Chan (12:42):
And it also for the instructor, let's say, this is,
this is purely instructortalking about. You have contact
hours, right? Which is like, youknow, you have free credit
hours. And so you teach for freehours, but everybody knows
that's not all you're doing.Like you have to do like email
administration and office hoursand prep and so forth.
(13:02):
So I actually made spreadsheetto quantify all that and go
like, you know what, if you'reteaching a new class, developing
it, you're going to need morehours than if you're doing
something just maintenance fiveyears down the road. And you all
those have to consider shelflife and stuff like that. But
then it's like, okay, once we'reable to put some precise units
(13:24):
on everything, let's say forexample, instead of counting
days in a week for work, counthours in a week, one sixty
eight, 24 times seven, Then it'slike, I didn't need AI for that.
Yes. There's tools like Mondayand Workday.
Like Workday is more formanaging a whole company, Monday
and other things like Todoist.But then if you have that seal
on your own, and this is from mystats professor, he goes, any
(13:47):
person, and he would make thejoke about monkey, can press a
button on SPSS and do it. Again,he's joking. I don't wanna put
him on under fire nor do I, butthe
Tayaba Khan (13:56):
idea are is itching now.
Angus Chan (13:58):
I'm sorry. Right. Because we're on the podcast.
Right? So I had to be careful.
But the idea is that it's likeprocessed food. If you know how,
what the food is made and youknow how to make it yourself,
you are way more informed aboutwhat's being done. So that ties
in with the whole informeddecision, with the leadership,
with the equity. It's the ideaof being informed and empowering
(14:20):
people to make informeddecisions.
Tayaba Khan (14:22):
Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. So let's turn to Angus
himself. You've shared yourjourney of adopting different
names and identities while youwere growing up.
Right? And this this is a nicestory you were telling us, so I
hope you would repeat that here.How has this experience shaped
your understanding of culturaldiversity and neurodiversity?
Angus Chan (14:45):
Right. I think as a human condition, when we name
something, is taught inmythology, this is taught in
psychology and also history.Once we name something, I'm
paraphrasing, we have a sense ofcontrol over it. We assign value
to it. And so for example, andthen we can identify it.
So Asperger's syndrome, forexample, named after Hans
(15:07):
Asperger's, okay. Now it'schanged to autism spectrum
disorder. Okay. We're gonna addthe spectrum towards that. So
for me, personally speaking, myname was a way to identify
myself and also as a way tomanipulate or control, or at
least try to change how peopleidentify me.
My legal name is King Chi, whichI guess, you know, if I sound
(15:28):
like Kim Chi or King Kong, I hadother names that people say,
again, this is back in the earlynineties in Wales. I was in an
Anglican boarding school. So Ithought, okay, my name's too
different. I want to change itto something that's more
Anglican. So I went with nameslike David and Jonathan, they
didn't stick.
And in fact, the people that Iwas going to school with my
classmates, I was like the onlyAsian there at the time.
(15:51):
Everybody else was like, youknow, Welsh or British or
whatever. They seemed to justcall me King Chi and they used
it. And there was, yes, there'sracism and discrimination and
the occasional roughhousing, butin the end of the day, they
identified me as King Chi, eventhough I wanted to fit in and do
something different. So therewas something that I wanted to
do, but at the same time throughthere, I also learned that's not
(16:14):
what they wanted to do.
They'll still like, you know, goto school with me. They'll still
play with me from time to timeor whatever. And some of them
were friends with me and theyjust called me by my, by the
name that they first heard. Andthere was no like, you know,
politically correctness orwhatever at the time, we're
children. But over time I wantedto make an, find a name for
myself.
And so I found somebody with thesame last name as me. We're in
(16:35):
the boarding school together.He's a couple of years older and
I admired him. So I took hisname Angus. That's the name that
I have now.
And I thought if I took his namelike an avatar, I can be that
avatar. But funny enough, I was,when my mom took me to immigrate
to Canada and we were as, I wassuccessful English. So I spoke
with my sort of half Welshaccent in a Canadian school. And
(16:57):
then, so I told them my name wasAngus and then the teacher goes,
Oh, Angus, that's my dog's name.So I'm like, Oh shoot, now I'm
named after a dog.
And inside I'm going, do I haveto change my name again? There
were periods of my life where Igo, okay. Sometimes I wanted to
fit in and change my name.Sometimes I wanted a fresh
start, like the dog example, orwhen I flunked out of university
(17:19):
and go, maybe changing my namewould make a fresh start. But
again, based on the support andthings like that, it is fairly
obvious, like changing my namedoesn't really do anything.
It's more like changing mystrategies, changing my learning
style, my lifestyle that reallyhelped make the change. So I'm
sticking with Angus and maybepeople call me King to say some
of my legal name. Maybe somedayI'll adopt that, which is closer
(17:42):
to my legal name. But in the endnow the name is just the name
and maybe I can make somethingof it. That's where I am at now.
And in terms of culture, am fromHong Kong. It's now Chinese, I
guess, but I identify as HongKong Chinese because Hong Kong
used to be a British colony andI was raised in Wales. So I have
that sort of Britishness in me.But again, at this point I go,
well, I'm Angus no matter whatat this point, and whatever
(18:05):
culture I want to be identifiedwith, I need to know my roots
and then I need to acknowledgethem properly. So that's where I
am at now.
Paul Cruz (18:12):
You are passionate about lifelong learning
practices. How do you fostercollaboration and inclusivity in
educational settings to supportneurodiverse learners?
Angus Chan (18:22):
Right. Number one, I would three things. Number one,
I need to believe in what I'mlearning and also believe in
what I'm teaching. So I need to,that comes on that, that would
drive that conviction and thatpassion towards it. Number two,
it would be a curiosity in otherpeople.
Again, it's hard to work withpeople that I don't want to know
anything about. I mean, it'sthere, but it's kind of like the
(18:45):
passion's gone similar to like apartnership or a romance. If the
fire kind of dies in themarriage, yes, there's
commitment and that's veryimportant. But if there is a way
to spice things up, curiositywould be one of the ways to do
that. Yes, it helps things goalong.
And number three, I think it'sthe idea of working together. At
the end of the day, yes, thereare things I go, for me, and I
(19:08):
have to be careful about this, Igo, I can do this faster, more
efficiently, whatever, bymyself, just based on the
training. But number one, thatsounds bad coming out like this.
And number two, sometimes itdoesn't work because there are
things that is better donetogether. And if we need to do
it together, let's say forteaching, right?
Yeah, I know the stuff, but itisn't about me. It's about the
(19:29):
students learning this stuff. SoI have to match their pace. For
team projects and collaboration,yeah, of course I can do it
faster, but this is not like agroup project that you just need
to hand a product in. No, thisis building a team.
So yes, it, you do need, I hadto learn, in my graduate school
years, it's like you spend moretime training a team, but that
time, and when it goes well andwhen you're finished, it's worth
(19:51):
it. So I, for example, I, I wastasked to start this club, this
is international student club,and I poured my heart and soul
and time in, but what reallymade it work three or four
generations later, because I wasthe first student president,
like four student presidentslater, the people don't know me
anymore. And that's a sign. Thisis like, no, they know the club,
(20:12):
they know the current president,the system is established, and
so I have done the job ofestablishing that system that I
was tasked with to do. So in thesense of the leadership then,
it's not this sort of likemodesty or humidity type of
thing, where it's like, oh no,no, it's not about me.
It is, it is has to, there's youin it, but it's about others. So
there's one quote here. It'slike about humidity. It isn't
(20:34):
about thinking less of otherpeople. It's thinking, thinking
less about yourself, or isn'tthinking less of yourself, it's
thinking less about yourself.
Something like thinking yourselfless versus thinking less about
yourself.
Tayaba Khan (20:44):
Exactly. Yeah. That type of thing. Yes. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's true.I think the students now in
particular face a challenge.Whenever you give them a group
project, I always get, you know,10 or 12 emails. Do I have to?
Angus Chan (21:01):
Yes.
Tayaba Khan (21:01):
Can I do this alone?
Angus Chan (21:03):
Yes.
Tayaba Khan (21:03):
You know, in so many words, they're they say by
my coworkers and my stew youknow, my group members are, you
know, idiots. And, you know, Ican do this better. And then you
have to try to teach them. Youknow? You will come across
people and you you can't changeyour coworkers.
So you have to you're better offchanging your spouse, but it's a
(21:24):
little more tricky when you'retrying to change your workers.
So coworkers. So you have tolearn how to work with them,
negotiate with them, barter withthem, compromise. So I think
that that's absolutely correctwhat you're saying. That's a
very important, again, back totransferable skill that the
students need to learn.
(21:44):
So you, in our lastconversation, you were kind of
mentioning about holisticwellness that you bring to your
work. So how do you integrateit? Tell us the process of how
do you integrate it within youreducational programs and in your
interactions with students.
Angus Chan (22:01):
Right. First, in any context of program, it's a
matter of priority. So you canhit, you have schools that say
this now, and student servicesthat say this, your health and
safety is our priority. And thatis true. And if that priority
remains, then at least the drivethen is like, okay, it's not
just about the grades.
It's not just about, let's saythe employment outcome. Those
(22:24):
are important for metrics andthings like that, but for the
student and for the person, thenit's like, oh, okay, well, the
health is first. So in thatsense, let's say for teaching,
then yes, as a teacher, I needto understand that the stresses
that students are going throughand to be careful as to like,
okay, yes, the student could bestressed about, let's say
(22:47):
completing their program ontime, or they have family issues
or particularly forinternationals or anyone with
family that's far away, theycan't reach right away. What if
something happens to the family?I don't want that to happen.
But if something were to happen,then they're, it's out of their
reach. They want to dosomething, but they can't. Or if
something happens to them, thefamily's out of their reach and
(23:07):
it's hard to go to get help. Andeven for like doctor's notes, it
costs money now. And if you'renot insured, you're an
international, it's way tougher.
So having to work with that. Sosystemically speaking, I believe
that, and I see schools doingthis, that it's important for
the school to build a studentsupport program or division that
really treats that policy withrespect and treat the students
(23:30):
with respect. So then as aninstructor, I can refer with
confidence students to thosepolicies and go, yes, the
student service will take careof it, so the instructor can
focus on the teaching andtraining of the student. So in
that sense, if that is notthere, then the instructor will
have to do it, which adds totheir load, but it is important
(23:52):
to pay attention to thosethings. As far as for my work
then, it is less so, because Ideal with less with students,
but I also pay attention tothings like, okay, where's my
own work life balance orharmony, so to speak?
And how does that tie in with mycoworkers that I work with? And
how is it working with them? Sothere are things that my
director would look after in thecontext of my role, because I'm
(24:13):
not, I'm not quote unquote incharge of the division per se.
We have someone that does thatand I leave it to that person
that does that. But at the sametime, I don't want to add any
burden to my coworkers or to mydivisional school.
So I just pay attention thatway.
Paul Cruz (24:27):
As an academic quality assurance coordinator,
what challenges andopportunities do you encounter
in creating sustainable andinclusive programs for diverse
learners?
Angus Chan (24:37):
Right. I think it begins internally with the, with
the teams I work with. We havea, we have a, we have a team
that we're building to make astructure out of the program
review. I gotta be careful. Istill work in the school, but,
all we're saying is, is thatit's, it's going and we have,
it's a work in progress andwe're overcoming those
(24:59):
challenges.
Challenges like making sure wehave a structure that works for
all program reviews and not justone at a time. So, and it's
like, okay, it's not like we'rejust trying to build a plane as
we fly it, which doesn't soundvery good, but sometimes it has
to be done that way becauselet's say we're understaffed or,
and my position was created tohave that. So I have to do my
(25:21):
job and I want to do my job inbuilding that structure so then
everybody wins. That's one ofthe challenges of overcoming. In
terms of the benefits then,we're seeing the benefits of
like, okay, we're building thatsort of awareness and building
that trust for the faculty togo, yeah, we're here to help
with this.
It's not just a governmentministry thing that the school
(25:44):
has to fulfill, but it alsogives the faculty and the school
an opportunity to receive thefeedback, to give their own
feedback and go, oh, what'sworking for us and what do we
need to improve our program andmake things work better for us
this way. So I think that'swhere I'm placed right now to do
that program review in thecontext of like course
(26:05):
evaluation and surveys,outcomes, and also in starting
in to do institutional research.So those, those are some
challenges and sort of benefitsare coming out of this right
now, this year.
Tayaba Khan (26:16):
Nice. Nice. So your story is fascinating. You're
coming from Hong Kong, then youwent to UK, then you came to
Canada, all three different, youknow, completely different
cultures, so to speak, you know,very, very different dynamics
going on there. So, and youemphasize the importance of
working with diverse communitiesand cultures.
So any initiatives or projectsthat you carried out where you
(26:38):
were able to bring, other peoplefrom different cultures, help
them gain perspective of eachother?
Angus Chan (26:44):
Right, right, right. So when I was a student, I was,
and a lot of it is I'm verythankful and I'd say fortunate
to be given those opportunities.And then it was, it was my, the
onus is on me to, you know, takeit and run with it. So let's say
when I was a graduate student,I, somebody asked me to run an
international student club. Andso, yeah, I ran with it.
(27:06):
It started with literally twohandfuls of people, like eight
people. And there was like sevenstaff and one international
student in our first clubmeeting, which was kind of sad,
thinking about it now. But it'sgone from like the eight people
to like 30 people and then 60people. And a lot of that was
thankful to, it was SFU at thetime. They had the Interfaith
(27:28):
Center and they had other clubsthat saw the value of this.
And even the InternationalStudent Club at SFU, they didn't
oppose. And they're like, Hey,if we can join, we would. And
that's the other thing. So itwas those partnership of like
clubs joining other clubs andpartnering up. And then the
professors saw value in it andbecame guest speakers sometimes.
And so we are, we are numbershave gone up for the last, when
(27:52):
I was there before years, itgone from like eight, sixteen,
thirty, forty. And then at somepoint we reached like 80 people
at one point and it goes up anddown because of exams and so
forth. So the initiative reallyworked and that was over there
where I learned the importanceof partnership. When I was
working in student services,was, we started committees and I
(28:14):
joined some committees like thescholarship adjudication
committee. We started aninternational student committee
and working with internationalstudents and go like, well, this
is a group that needs extrahelp, quote unquote, not to
stigmatize them, but there arereasons why they need the extra
support being an internationalstudent.
That's where we were comingfrom. And we also have things
like going out to support thevulnerable and other things like
(28:37):
a door is open or other, othersort of urban type of work. And
that was the thing that we go,okay, not only are we helping
the students per se that needhelp, but we're also encouraging
students to help others and oneanother. So it's that idea of
like, oh, we're not just doingthis for ourselves, We're doing
this with other people. Andmaybe if we have the resources
(28:58):
for it, we can do it for otherpeople.
So right now in my work, in myadministrative work, I look to
build connections. So there aresome initiatives, just some fun
ones where I make office signsfor, for, for father offices.
Cause, the, the standard one wehave is just a white piece of
paper with, with words on it.Now there's me being an art
(29:21):
school, they make their ownsign, but what if like we are
administrator and you just, youknow, want to get on with your
day, but want something nicer? Ihave a small background in
graphic design and creatinglogos and stuff like that.
So I thought, okay. This is agood way for me to know the
other offices to connect withthem. But at the same time,
there's something in it forthat. Overall for the past year
we've been doing that. We madeabout like, you know, 80 office
(29:43):
lines, cause there's someturnover sometimes and some
changes and whatnot.
Wow. Sometimes it's assigned forone person. Sometimes it's
assigned for like 20 peoplecause they're all instructors
and these are the instructorsthat go to that office. So then
it's like, okay, it's even thepurview of my work because I
have to know these things sothat I, it became an opportunity
for me to go, okay, how can Iconnect with other people
(30:05):
through that process?
Paul Cruz (30:06):
Yeah. What changes or advancements would you like to
see in how higher educationsupports neurodiverse students?
Angus Chan (30:14):
Right. In terms of changes I would like to see,
this is one area that I findinteresting, because I am pretty
sure lots of people are talkingabout this, but then the ratio
of how much is talked aboutamongst educators and amongst
professionals, and even inpodcasts like this, and how much
gets done is totallydisproportionate. I can, I don't
(30:36):
think, I don't think that's toostrong to say that? What I would
like to see, again, I often liketo begin with myself and I had
be careful when I say this,because my wife goes, maybe it's
your ego talking right now. Havemy masters.
Maybe it's my turn. If it helps,if it helps, not just boost my
ego or whatever, I will firstsay there's that. So I'm not
gonna hide it. I'm not gonnadeny it. It's there.
(30:58):
But if there's something more toit than that, let's say if it
helps me help other people.Like, okay, like right now, if
my master's is enough to feed myfamily, if it's enough to make
enough impact within mysurroundings and circles, that's
fine. Why spend the extra moneywhere it could be saved or
(31:18):
whatever, right? But if thereis, if circumstances lead to go,
okay, I can be in a position tohelp more people, like let's say
systemat, systemat, or aninstitution, it could be
institutional research oreducational leadership, and go
for neurodiversity. Let's say,Oh, we have this.
A friend of mine, he's thedirector of inclusive education
at Regent Christian Academy. Andhe was blogging about like the
(31:40):
most recent Canadian thing wherethey go, Oh, the funding for
inclusive education has gonedown. No. And we're talking
about it. Okay, well, if thereis funding for UDL, Universal
Design Learning for Learning, ifthere is funding for EDI or
JEDI, which I find it ironic,the JEDI order died out.
So if you name it after Jedi, Iknow that might ruffle some
(32:01):
feathers because the Yes.Anyway, the intent is there. If
there's funding for these twoprograms and others that go
like, okay, why not inclusiveeducation, which I would believe
is on the same line of thesethings. And it's from the K to
12 and having worked with from Kto 12 and see how they're
supposed to prepare students forpost secondary and beyond. If
the preparation is not donecorrectly and the gaps remain,
(32:24):
let's say academic writing, butthey don't teach that.
Math, they don't teach thatenough. Time management, you go
from a system of handholdingstudents at the eight, eight,
you know, day one, day twostructure or whatever. And then
you throw students intoscheduling their own time and
they think class time is all thetime they got. It's like, no, in
terms of that, I were in aposition or somebody at least,
(32:46):
they were in a position to golike, Hey, can make these
changes in educationalleadership. Maybe it starts with
one school.
Maybe it goes to multipleschools. Maybe the ministry
picks up on it and goes, okay,well, this theory works. Let's
use it. Then it would start tobenefit the municipality and
maybe the city and beyond. Imean, I dream big at this point,
but where I would begin is like,Hey, what sort of platform, what
(33:09):
sort of partnerships and whatsort of priorities would be
there to help make that happen?
I understand there's like alearning disability society.
They got some high fire folks inVancouver that would do stuff
like that. And there'salternative high schools. So I
think with cumulative knowledgeof this stuff, I would like to
see ways of making the communityand the committees go, this is
(33:34):
how we can come together. It's abit like the pride parade, but
at the same time it's like,okay, if there are different
neurodiversity agencies andorganizations out there, is
there a way to go, what is ourunited vision?
What are sort of the ways we canhelp schools go, okay, this will
work for all parties. This willwork to make the school better.
(33:54):
One example of this would beMontessori education.
Montessori's model wasinitially, I don't think we know
this, maybe I'm speaking to thelisteners, where it's like, it
was initially used forvulnerable children or disabled
children, but then it works sowell, now it's used for gifted
children. So maybe that side ofthing sets precedent to go, Hey,
(34:15):
if we do something forneurodiversity, we see the world
differently.
I'm speaking we here as theneurodivergent. Or at least when
we look at it through that lens,maybe there's some solutions to
some long standing problems thatcan be solved this way. Maybe.
That's And why I would like
Tayaba Khan (34:28):
you're so right. I mean, I see a lot of students
who come into our programs andthey have absolutely no clue how
to manage their work. They don'tknow how to reach out to their
teachers. They don't know even,you know, if they're stuck
somewhere in their homeworks,they don't know that they don't,
they don't even realize thatthey can actually come to the
teacher and ask them. And it's
Angus Chan (34:49):
so, and you might say,
Tayaba Khan (34:52):
exactly. Exactly. So you're like, wow, it's for
us, it's common sense. Youshould be as an adult learner,
able to problem solve and reachout to the right people to get
an answer for yourself, but youdon't. And you're so absolutely
right.
This is a conversation I've beenhaving with my, one of my
colleagues at work that we,post, you know, from, from high
(35:14):
school to post graduation, thetransition is so murky. And I
feel like a lot of the studentsjust fall through the cracks
because they didn't know how tostudy. Like, you know, coming
back to, you know, yourexperience from before, right?
You had to, you had to figureyourself out as to how you would
study and not everybody fits inthe same mold. Right?
(35:38):
So, yeah, you're absolutelyright. So you like, what I hear,
you like spending time with yourfamily and you like new foods,
exploring new foods. Is thatcorrect?
Angus Chan (35:48):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, food brings a lot of people
together. There's a couple ofquote unquote F words, not F
word, that brings peopletogether. Food is first.
And that's something we use atthe International Student Cup.
Food, yeah, you smell somethinggood. You wanna eat, you're
hungry. Food, something fun,friends, and then some type of
fellowship, a journey orwhatever. Those are some f
words.
Yeah. Family. Yeah. That'simportant. Family.
(36:09):
So, yes. So
Tayaba Khan (36:11):
how you know, those are, of course, your personal
experiences, you know, youexploring something outside, but
how does, how do you think thatthose personal experiences have
also, you know, have they helpedyou get a professional
perspective on diversity, oninclusion?
Angus Chan (36:26):
Right. I think for me, it is interesting because I
have to learn several things.Number one, me as a
neurodivergent, so to speak. Andthen there's the people closest
to me. My mom was number one inthat order.
Then now it's like, sort of myI'm working on that. So then
it's like, they worked with me,right? And it's like, what is
(36:47):
their experience? A lot of folksthat seek the help, it isn't
necessarily the childrenthemselves. The first one would
be the parents or their primarycaregiver.
It's like, they usually, usuallyI'm speaking in general here,
usually are not neurodivergentthemselves, or at least they're
high functioning enough to seekthe help for their children. And
(37:09):
then now it's like a doublechallenge. Number one, you have
to manage your own life. Andnumber two, you have to manage
that person's life and you'reseeking help to do it. So in
terms of professionally, it'slike, okay, just me thinking
about my neurodiversity is notenough.
So in a way, working for sevenyears in that nonprofit
government sector has reallyhelped me learn a lot because it
(37:31):
is one other thing to work withpeople in that sector. Then when
myself in that sector, there areadvantages and disadvantages.
For example, for me, and I'mjust speaking freely now, it's
like, I can see them and I canread them fairly quickly,
because it takes one to know oneso to speak. But at the same
time, I have to be aware, maybeI have the similar difficulties
(37:53):
or I have my own difficultieswhen I'm working with them. So
for example, like from ourconversation, I can take things
into detail and break them down.
But when it comes to buildingrelationship, there's no time
for that. That's not whatthey're for. And it's just the
building up the liking and it'smore of a vibe thing. So it
comes across as like my firstimpression or the things we do
(38:15):
or the things they feel, whatthey feel and remember about
you. So one barrier of practicefor me would be my own family.
And as a personal reflection islike, yeah, I can go, I can
chase towards some profession orwhatever, but if I forget my
family, this is a reminder formyself that my wife and I would
tell myself and go like, if Iforget my own son, then I failed
(38:37):
them and I failed my ownprofession and so forth. So I
often am reminded of that and Ihave to be careful of that. So
in a way, the better husband andfather and human being I am, I
can, I can, I'm confident aboutmy professionalism, but if I'm
not no longer human, if I'm nolonger a husband and father,
then what's the point of mebeing a professional? Because
(38:58):
that's what the people feel. Andthat's the bound, that's the
basis of the relationship in thefirst place.
That's what I believe anyway.
Paul Cruz (39:04):
So in your role at Emily Carr University, how do
you ensure that courseevaluations and program reviews
address the needs ofneurodiverse learners?
Angus Chan (39:14):
That's a wow, that question really makes me think.
Because there's a balance.Research wise speaking, every
time we change a question, thatchanges not only the question
set, but that also changes thewhole dataset. So, and this one
didn't come from me. This onecame from the director of the
teaching and learning center.
They wanted to change thequestion to make it more
(39:35):
inclusive. And I'm totally onboard with that. Lots of people
are on board with that. And thenwhen it came to actually doing
it, well, it takes more timethan we thought. It's going to
change the question.
We're going to have to look atthe data differently. And my job
at the time, and my job there isto go, well, these are the
different things we have to lookat based on that. And so
(39:56):
together, me and the directorare like, we're being more
informed together and go like,you know what? We would like
this change to be made, but weneed to spend more time on this
to make it work. So in thatsense, it's like the changes we
want to make them.
And this is where I understandfrom the backend, where if you
hear it from the front end, it'slike, it's not happening yet.
(40:16):
Oh, we're still working thingsout. And it's like, you're not
delivering the promise that youmade, or you're not meeting our
expectations. And this is whereI'm torn because the researcher
in me goes, yeah, we want tomake this change work. So for
me, I would like to go, yeah,there are ways to make that more
efficient, to automate thatprocess.
So then the changes we make canactually happen sooner and more
(40:40):
effectively. So that's the sortof thing I want to build in
making that more inclusive,because the nice thing is there
are people that, that, are soldor bought in already that want
to make this change. We have astudent rights and
responsibilities person, acoordinator, we have
accessibility manager, we have astudent support and we have
indigenization and so forth. Wewant that in there and so do I.
(41:03):
So my job then is to go, how dowe make that system work so then
we can come together and dothat?
And one area of that would beinstitutional research and the
data governance, or at least thedata management. So that would
be my world right now in termsof how I can make that more
inclusive. Because at the end ofthe day, if we want to do
evidence based research, we needto work well with that evidence.
(41:27):
Because again, that's the systemwe're in. Yes.
Working with the system, notcheating it, not necessarily
beating it, but working with it.
Tayaba Khan (41:34):
Yeah. So, so far we have been, you know, since the
start of this conversation, onething I've noticed is we, it's
the neuro divergent populationsthat are advocating for
themselves.
Angus Chan (41:44):
Yes.
Tayaba Khan (41:45):
Right. Kind of a lonely battle at times. What do
you think the institutions cando to better advocate for
neurodiverse individuals,especially in their academic and
professional settings?
Angus Chan (41:57):
Well, I'd say, and this is half joke, I say this as
half joking. If you put aneurodivergent person in charge,
the human condition kicks in,right? For better or worse,
changes will come with that sortof vested interest in mind. Let
me give some positive examples.This is from BCIT, and this is
again So during of all timesduring COVID, BCIT built their
(42:21):
office of international studentsand also made a building for the
office of internationalstudents.
And so what made that work wastop down. So they had the board
on board, they have the governorand so forth on board. So it's
not like a grassroot effort,which ties in with the whole,
like lonely uphill battle,pushing the boulder up the hill
type of thing. Right. So in thatsense, how would that challenge
(42:44):
work in terms of theapplication?
I think in digitalization orsort of like the gender bred
person or that type of thing,where you go like allies or
champions or advocates. Thoseare all well and good, I think,
but I think they come from aperspective of the dominant
group. Like this is the dominantgroup that goes, I want to be an
(43:05):
ally for the minority group. Ifthe neurodivergent group is
labeled as minority and it'sabout hill battle for the
minority group, then the onlyhelp they're gonna get that is
from the non minority groupwould have them to come from the
dominant group. And then whatmakes the dominant group want to
help?
Tayaba Khan (43:25):
Okay.
Angus Chan (43:26):
One way to, and again, this is from my
perspective. I go, well, it'slike Inception, the movie, where
it had to make them think it'stheir idea, and part of it is
their idea. Okay. They want tohelp, but maybe like the how,
maybe sometimes even the why.It's not like us telling them
that they need to help us, butit's like, if the timing is
(43:49):
good, if the buy in is there,then it's like building that
relationship and then gettingthat buy in is there, which is
why I think this is why it worksin some institutions, but not
others, because the person incharge isn't necessarily
neurodivergent or supportive ofthat or knows somebody.
So I think in that sense, it's abit of a lottery going on, that
(44:12):
part is left to chance.
Tayaba Khan (44:14):
Yeah, maybe leave some sticky notes at their
station. Oops, where did thatcome from?
Angus Chan (44:18):
Well, I think this is where, as of history, and
this is where I go like, hey,history is boring. There's in
fact like pictures on the web ofa history lecture and the people
were falling asleep in medievaltimes of that lecture. But it's
important that history is aboutpeople. And this is like
learning from history, okay,well, the history of, let's say,
Black People's History Month orAsian History Month. In
(44:39):
Vancouver, there's a museum forChinese culture now in downtown,
in Chinatown.
But how did those happen? Ithink there's two pronged
approach is similar to theresearch I did with the
indigenous hope of culturalcontinuity. And what we found
there was, is that if there isthings that help the group, the
indigenous band, the firstnation band, have their own self
agency. So their own government,their own school, their own
(45:01):
hospital, their own firedepartment, their own police
department, those are the thingsthat help them stand on their
feet, so to speak. And then thisbenefits the children that have
a route to go back to.
So in that sense, it would be achallenge for the neuro diverse
community to build those things.So I think in the sense, I can
see what this podcast is doing.Yes, there are people including
(45:23):
myself, like, oh, I wanna behurt, selfishly or whatever. I
wanna speak up. Great.
But I would imagine, and pleasecorrect me if I'm wrong, if this
is a way of gathering the voicestogether, as I can read the
embracing every mind, sharingevery voice, and that sharing of
the voices then becomes, youknow, building them. Then, and
then, okay, maybe there, maybethere could be more like a
(45:45):
Canadian autism network orautism speaks where you go,
okay, you build a structure outof it. You build a business
model out of it. And then, andthen this can build a community
out of it. Maybe then those areways of like raising awareness,
building support, gatheringresources, training
professionals and so forth,where you can build that.
Cause there's a teacher shortageright now, I think, among other
(46:07):
things. And so maybe, maybe downthe road that can make some
positive changes that gosystemic. Who knows?
Paul Cruz (46:13):
Yes. So Angus, to wrap things up, we have a
segment called theNeurodiversity Myth Busting
Segment. We also hope toencourage our listeners to
submit their responses to thesix myths that found on our
website. Yeah. And we mayfeature them on our next podcast
episode.
So we will ask our guest speakerto give us his thoughts on one
(46:36):
of the myths as
Angus Chan (46:37):
well. Okay.
Paul Cruz (46:40):
So, yeah, first myth is neurodiverse individuals are
less intelligent. Second,neurodiverse individuals cannot
succeed in the workplace. Third,neurodiverse individuals lack
social skills. Fourth,neurodiversity is a disorder
that needs to be cured. Fifth,neurodiverse individuals are all
(47:04):
the same.
And sixth, neurodiverseindividuals are always
introverted and prefer to bealone.
Angus Chan (47:12):
How many of those, miss? Is it for next time or
this time? Just I just wanna besure.
Tayaba Khan (47:18):
If you wanted to pick one.
Angus Chan (47:19):
Oh, one.
Tayaba Khan (47:19):
Which one would you want to bust today?
Angus Chan (47:22):
Bust. Okay. Can go in order if you want. I think
the first one was people withneurodiversity are less
intelligent or not asintelligent. Is that the first
one?
Tayaba Khan (47:30):
Yep. That's the one.
Paul Cruz (47:32):
Just pick one of them and then bust one Okay. Of
Angus Chan (47:35):
I'd say the first one is probably the easiest to
bust. I mean, add this type in,you can Google search somebody
famous, and then you attach someneuro diverse condition next to
it. And you're probably gonnafind something Einstein, Elon
Musk anyway, but it's often youmake associations and coming
(47:59):
from my own perspective is like,well, it can be done as a coping
mechanism. It can be done as away to go, oh, wait, just trying
to see who's out there. And it'sone thing to go looking your own
circle and some neuro diverseconditions are invisible and
others are less, more visible.
Then, so in that sense, in termsof intelligence, I think
(48:21):
intelligence in this way is alsoa mask of the neuro diversity.
Giftedness and sort of likecertain conditions or disorders,
that's another myth to bust,because I'm using the word
condition as we probably would.They often can not only
compliment each other, but theyalso sometimes sort of
overshadow each other, so tospeak. So I think in terms of
(48:43):
that myth I would say if it's aperson to person context and and
let's say a person startssharing that they have some sort
of neurodiversity I think thatthe assumption of intelligence
has already been made regardlessof the condition. You meet with
that person and go okay yeahthat person makes a judgment
call or an impression is thatperson intelligent or not.
(49:05):
So I think then if thatassumption has already been
made, then any condition that isdisclosed on them would just
sort of add fuel to the fire.Oh, if that person thinks the
other person's intelligent andthen they hear about this, oh,
okay, that person is specialnow. They're intelligent because
of that condition or whatever orthey have that condition because
(49:25):
they're intelligent. They mightmake that kind of confusion. If
it was a negative connotation,that person's less intelligent,
it's like the attribution error.
Then that condition that, okaythey're not intelligent because
of that condition. So I wouldsay in that sense, the myth here
isn't necessarily about theconnection between the person's
intelligence and that condition.It's really more about the
(49:47):
assumptions, the stereotypesthat I'll start with myself,
that I make with that conditionor with intelligence as a whole.
Because even the theory ofintelligence, again, associate
my field, like that theory ischanging. They used to do like
multiple theories ofintelligence, their outputs fall
out of favor, my IQ test isstill a thing because it's
standardized in a way, but atthe same time now you have
(50:11):
transferable skills or skillbased intelligence and so forth.
Then I believe a way to bustthat myth is to learn about both
of us. Learn what intelligenceis and how that has changed.
Learn about neurodiversity andhow that has changed. And I
think that would make a moreinformed connection between the
two and then it would helpworking with people and go well
(50:34):
okay what's your intelligence ifyou're asking that question
what's your neurodiversity ifyou're asking that question and
then looking at them firstseparately and then maybe ways
together as long as you
Paul Cruz (50:44):
get to know that person. So thank you, Angus,
sharing your story and expertisewith us today. Thanks for having
me. That's all for today'sepisode of the Neurodiversity
Voices podcast. Thank you somuch for tuning in and being
part of this importantconversation.
Tayaba Khan (51:00):
We hope you found today's discussion insightful
and inspiring. Remember, everyvoice matters and together we
can create a more inclusive andunderstanding world for
neurodivergent individuals.
Paul Cruz (51:12):
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a
rating or a review on yourfavorite podcast platforms or
share it with your friends,family, or anyone who might
benefit from theseconversations.
Tayaba Khan (51:25):
If you have any questions, ideas, or stories
you'd like to share, please feelfree to fill out our listener
feedback and survey form or evenapply to be our guest speaker on
our website,www.neurodiversityvoices.com.
We'd love to hear from you.
Paul Cruz (51:41):
Until next time, take care, stay curious, and keep
celebrating the beauty ofdiverse minds.
Tayaba Khan (51:47):
Thanks for listening to the neurodiversity
voices podcast.
Hello, I'm your host Paul Cruz and welcome to the
Neurodiversity Voices podcastwhere we celebrate and amplify
the unique perspectives andexperiences of neurodiverse
individuals. I'm thrilled tohave you join us on this journey
of exploration, advocacy, andcelebration of neurodiversity.
Tayaba Khan (00:22):
I'm Tayaba Khan, your co host. Together, we'll
have meaningful conversations,share inspiring stories, and
challenge misconceptions aboutneurodiversity.
Paul Cruz (00:31):
This podcast is for everyone, whether you're
neurodivergent yourself, aneducator, a parent, or just
someone curious to learn more.Our goal is to amplify voices,
foster understanding, and sparkchange in the way we view and
support neurodiversity.
Tayaba Khan (00:48):
We're so excited to have you with us as we celebrate
the beauty of diverse minds andwork toward a more inclusive
future.
Paul Cruz (00:55):
So sit back, relax, and let's get started. Welcome
to the Neurodiversity Voicespodcast. Welcome to the show,
Angus.
Angus Chan (01:04):
Thanks, Paul. Thanks for having me. Good to see you,
Doctor. Khan. Thanks for beingwith me.
Yes. Can
Paul Cruz (01:10):
you share your journey in higher education and
what inspired you to focus onlearning assessment, curriculum
development, and studentsuccess?
Angus Chan (01:21):
Great. So my journey in higher education started in
02/2001, and it was rough atfirst. I flunked out of
university, SFU, wasted $20,000of my mom's dollars with 51, 53
credits and 1.91 GPA and noretakes in business
administration, but with helpand support managed to go back
(01:42):
in again in 2005 and, go on todo psychology and then a
master's in educationalpsychology. What this has led me
to while I was TAing from 2000onwards was that, well, there
are a lot of things I learnedthe hard way and I wish to help
students along the way. So theydon't have to learn the hard way
necessarily that I've gonethrough, others have gone
(02:02):
through.
So that was a prime motivationin sort of education in the post
secondary world. And I'll justpause from there. That's the
start of my journey.
Tayaba Khan (02:12):
Great. So your article on the history of
Asperger's syndrome and autismspectrum disorder is
fascinating. What motivated youto explore this topic and how
has your perspective evolvedaround this?
Angus Chan (02:26):
Right. My perspective continues to evolve
as the, spectrum of ASDcontinues to evolve. So in that
sense, when I wrote the article,I was in my graduate school and
I wanted a way to explore andarticulate where my
understanding of Asperger'ssyndrome has evolved. That's
(02:48):
what I was diagnosed with when Iwas young in the beginning. And
I could only learn from what myfamily has told me and what I
can learn from the interventioncenter back in Hong Kong and
what they did.
So it was a research project, areflection project, and at the
same time, it was a way to lookat how the diagnosis and the
(03:10):
labeling and the connotation ofAsperger's syndrome has evolved
from this process now that it'spart of the ASD spectrum. And
one thing that I kept in mind asI was writing this is that, you
know somebody with autism, youonly know that person with
autism. And even if I have itmyself, I really only know
myself and whoever I'm incontact with. So it was a good
(03:32):
way to remind myself and tocommunicate with readers that
even though Asperger's syndromeis no longer in use, if there
are people that still identifywith that or identify themselves
as that, then they have theirown sort of context.
Paul Cruz (03:47):
So your diversity statement emphasizes
acknowledging uniqueness inpursuing equity, quote end end
quote. How do you apply thisphilosophy in your work and
interactions with students andcolleagues?
Angus Chan (04:01):
Right, so in each of the roles that I would do this
with different partners in thissort of partnership. I work a
little differently for each. Solet's say I start with coworkers
in the administration or in theschool context, then I play my
(04:23):
role as either academic qualityassurance coordinator or
sessional instructor right now,or before I was a manager of
student services. So it depends,and I play to that role, working
with folks in their role in thatcontext. So the goal is the same
though.
It would be to work with staffand faculty for promoting
student success. And in theadministrative world right now,
(04:45):
I would work with them in termsof program reviews, course
evaluations, and beginning to dosome institutional research. And
then I have to pay attention towhat the faculty, the deans, the
sessional instructors, thetenured professors, what they
want. And then when I work as ainstructor, I work with other
instructors who have their wayof teaching the course. Work
(05:05):
with department heads, whichhave to manage the department.
And then I also work withstudents and student services,
for students they want to studyand complete their academic or
professional goals, or thestudent services that are there
to help the students. I payattention to what they want to
do and then see how I cancontribute to that.
Tayaba Khan (05:24):
That's very interesting. Your leadership
philosophy basically embracesthe idea of a reciprocal
relationship, right, in between,you know, between service and
leadership, and you kind oftalked about the service piece
here, right?
Angus Chan (05:38):
Yes.
Tayaba Khan (05:39):
So how you know, and you've already kind of, you
know, elaborated how you workwith staff, faculty, and
stakeholders. But what do youthink is the secret sauce that
kind of, you know, makes itwork? How how does this happen?
Angus Chan (05:53):
One thing I learned from working in the vulnerable
sector during my transitionperiod of graduating from a
master's in ed psych and thengoing back into teaching, it
took me seven years into thenonprofit sector. One thing I
learned from working withcounselors and government funded
agencies for youth transitiongroups that go into adulthood is
(06:14):
the idea of an informeddecision. And that I think this
works quite well in terms ofleadership, then we have
decisions to make. It's like theword problem we discussed
earlier. It's like, okay, that'sthe problem to be solved.
The question to be answered thisinformation and resources used
to answer those questions tosolve a problem. And then the
roles, skills, and so forth tomake the information work to
(06:34):
solve the problem. So in termsof relationally speaking, and in
terms of leadership, there aregoals to be accomplished, but
then how do we come to aninformed decision about how we
can allocate our resources andourselves time and effort to
accomplish those goals together?And the key here, the secret
sauce I think would be to dothis together. So sometimes it's
(06:55):
pushing, sometimes it's pulling,but we're in it together.
Paul Cruz (06:57):
You referenced a lyric from Phil Collins in your
teaching philosophy. How doesthis lyric resonate with your
approach to teaching andlearning?
Angus Chan (07:05):
Right. So, just in case, the lyric is from, one of
the Kyptho Collins song. It's,featured in the movie Tarzan.
And the lyric goes, In learningyou will teach and in teaching
you will learn. So again,continue with that sort of
reciprocal theme or thatcyclical theme there.
As an educator, I think if Istop learning, then I should
(07:28):
stop teaching. There's no pointanymore in that sense, because
it's like stagnant water, so tospeak, I were to use an analogy.
Me to keep going, I need to keepflowing. So in terms of that,
how I would apply this is, yes,I'm assigned to teach things. I
have curriculum guides I need tofollow.
I have learning outcomes that Iwould accomplish with my
(07:48):
students, but at the same time,the appropriate opportunities,
go, how can I do this better?What can help the students learn
more and what is going on withthe students right now? So it
isn't necessarily learning to,like, let's say a designation or
to become no more knowledgeable,although that's part of the
process. It's also learningabout the people I'm working
(08:10):
with and go like, okay, whatmakes them work? What makes them
tick?
One indication for me, as aneducator is, a success of
teaching somebody something isthat if they also want to teach
others, it doesn't have to beofficially, they become a
teacher or a tutor to do it, butif they start teaching each
other or just learning from eachother, yes, you can insert like
(08:32):
educational terms, scaffoldingand peer collaborative work,
anything like that, that theybegin to work with the concept
of skill and they start to teachand learn on their own. The
teacher then I believe has donemore of the job than just
transmitting information ortrying to teach a skill.
Tayaba Khan (08:49):
So I was talking to a family member of mine and I
have a teenage son and we werediscussing how the future
workforce is going to be acompletely different, you know,
realm compared to what we havebeen learning and what we have
been doing, what we have beentaught. So it's not just
teaching them the concepts now.It's more about, okay, how do
(09:12):
you develop the resilience tolearn new things, to do new
things? And how do youincorporate that with the rising
awareness of the differentneurodiverse types and how are
you going to bring this alltogether to make it work? Right?
So it's an interestingtransition, I think, in terms of
(09:33):
workforce in the future. AIdefinitely creates a, you know,
adds a new spice to the mix.Right? So, yes, please go ahead.
Angus Chan (09:43):
No, no, no. You might have a question. So if you
got a question, please ask me. Ihave some thoughts about that.
It gets all of them the idea ofteaching the next generation and
also the idea, let's say theemergence of AI, actually the
rising of AI.
One thing I'd say about that isas I work with students, more
schools, including the school Iteach at Alexander college,
they're trying to puttransferable skills as part of
(10:05):
their curriculum. It's like,okay, this is the reason why
you're learning this. And inadult education, it's not just
pedagogy, it's also andrologyand also hutabology, which is
like adult education and alsoself directed education. So it's
not just the more knowledgeableperson teaching less
knowledgeable people, althoughthat often is the case. So in
terms of activatingintelligence, I play around with
(10:27):
this a bit, and this came fromlike COVID because okay, COVID
came, everyone's has to doonline learning now.
And at the same time, thetechnology comes out, which
gives students more bit of anarms race edge. Cause there's
like Chegg and Course Hero andstuff like that. And ChatGPT
Copilot Gemini, whatever. So oneway I thought about this was
(10:47):
what if the courses were like,let's say a piano recital. Yes.
You can have like a Simply Pianoor whatever, and YouTube
tutorials that like, you don'tneed sheet music anymore. It's
like the notes coming down. It'sgreat.
Tayaba Khan (10:59):
Yeah.
Angus Chan (11:00):
However, it's still, the skill still remains in the
hands of the human being. As faras like, let's say piano goes.
So I play around with the ideaAI instead of artificial
intelligence, I make itactivating intelligence.
Interesting. Yes.
So whether it's math or writingor time management or life
skills coaching or whatever, aslong as human beings are what
(11:24):
they are, and this sounds a bitlike, you know, Bruce Lee
Marshall artsy, It's like, aslong as it's human and human
expression and humans aretrained to do that, then even
the technology can be used, notjust as a tool, but also as a
partner. And in some, like, inthe media or in the way they
portray, like, machines and AI,Matrix is one portrayal is like,
(11:46):
oh, the machine's But taking inother cultures it's like, well,
a lot of the film is like, well,machine is your partner. And so
in that sense, if the humans cantrain the skill, activating
intelligence, for example, math.And we talked about math can
like turn people's brains off orfry their brains. Right.
But if the skill is trained togo like, you know what, you can
do simple calculations, youknow, your bed mass or whatever
(12:08):
in your head. And, you know, ifyou can, if you realize what you
can do with those things andwhat you can use it even in
statistics, then it's like,okay, I don't need a calculator.
So in the spirit of the physicsfilm, it's like the thing with
Neo that he doesn't have tododge bullets anymore. Cause he
has gone beyond that. So yes, Ihave to sign a class where you
(12:30):
can learn college levelstatistics without a calculator.
So yes, it can be done. That'san
Tayaba Khan (12:37):
example. Good hope for me. There's hope for me.
Yeah. For a person who runs awayfrom maths.
Angus Chan (12:42):
And it also for the instructor, let's say, this is,
this is purely instructortalking about. You have contact
hours, right? Which is like, youknow, you have free credit
hours. And so you teach for freehours, but everybody knows
that's not all you're doing.Like you have to do like email
administration and office hoursand prep and so forth.
(13:02):
So I actually made spreadsheetto quantify all that and go
like, you know what, if you'reteaching a new class, developing
it, you're going to need morehours than if you're doing
something just maintenance fiveyears down the road. And you all
those have to consider shelflife and stuff like that. But
then it's like, okay, once we'reable to put some precise units
(13:24):
on everything, let's say forexample, instead of counting
days in a week for work, counthours in a week, one sixty
eight, 24 times seven, Then it'slike, I didn't need AI for that.
Yes. There's tools like Mondayand Workday.
Like Workday is more formanaging a whole company, Monday
and other things like Todoist.But then if you have that seal
on your own, and this is from mystats professor, he goes, any
(13:47):
person, and he would make thejoke about monkey, can press a
button on SPSS and do it. Again,he's joking. I don't wanna put
him on under fire nor do I, butthe
Tayaba Khan (13:56):
idea are is itching now.
Angus Chan (13:58):
I'm sorry. Right. Because we're on the podcast.
Right? So I had to be careful.
But the idea is that it's likeprocessed food. If you know how,
what the food is made and youknow how to make it yourself,
you are way more informed aboutwhat's being done. So that ties
in with the whole informeddecision, with the leadership,
with the equity. It's the ideaof being informed and empowering
(14:20):
people to make informeddecisions.
Tayaba Khan (14:22):
Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. So let's turn to Angus
himself. You've shared yourjourney of adopting different
names and identities while youwere growing up.
Right? And this this is a nicestory you were telling us, so I
hope you would repeat that here.How has this experience shaped
your understanding of culturaldiversity and neurodiversity?
Angus Chan (14:45):
Right. I think as a human condition, when we name
something, is taught inmythology, this is taught in
psychology and also history.Once we name something, I'm
paraphrasing, we have a sense ofcontrol over it. We assign value
to it. And so for example, andthen we can identify it.
So Asperger's syndrome, forexample, named after Hans
(15:07):
Asperger's, okay. Now it'schanged to autism spectrum
disorder. Okay. We're gonna addthe spectrum towards that. So
for me, personally speaking, myname was a way to identify
myself and also as a way tomanipulate or control, or at
least try to change how peopleidentify me.
My legal name is King Chi, whichI guess, you know, if I sound
(15:28):
like Kim Chi or King Kong, I hadother names that people say,
again, this is back in the earlynineties in Wales. I was in an
Anglican boarding school. So Ithought, okay, my name's too
different. I want to change itto something that's more
Anglican. So I went with nameslike David and Jonathan, they
didn't stick.
And in fact, the people that Iwas going to school with my
classmates, I was like the onlyAsian there at the time.
(15:51):
Everybody else was like, youknow, Welsh or British or
whatever. They seemed to justcall me King Chi and they used
it. And there was, yes, there'sracism and discrimination and
the occasional roughhousing, butin the end of the day, they
identified me as King Chi, eventhough I wanted to fit in and do
something different. So therewas something that I wanted to
do, but at the same time throughthere, I also learned that's not
(16:14):
what they wanted to do.
They'll still like, you know, goto school with me. They'll still
play with me from time to timeor whatever. And some of them
were friends with me and theyjust called me by my, by the
name that they first heard. Andthere was no like, you know,
politically correctness orwhatever at the time, we're
children. But over time I wantedto make an, find a name for
myself.
And so I found somebody with thesame last name as me. We're in
(16:35):
the boarding school together.He's a couple of years older and
I admired him. So I took hisname Angus. That's the name that
I have now.
And I thought if I took his namelike an avatar, I can be that
avatar. But funny enough, I was,when my mom took me to immigrate
to Canada and we were as, I wassuccessful English. So I spoke
with my sort of half Welshaccent in a Canadian school. And
(16:57):
then, so I told them my name wasAngus and then the teacher goes,
Oh, Angus, that's my dog's name.So I'm like, Oh shoot, now I'm
named after a dog.
And inside I'm going, do I haveto change my name again? There
were periods of my life where Igo, okay. Sometimes I wanted to
fit in and change my name.Sometimes I wanted a fresh
start, like the dog example, orwhen I flunked out of university
(17:19):
and go, maybe changing my namewould make a fresh start. But
again, based on the support andthings like that, it is fairly
obvious, like changing my namedoesn't really do anything.
It's more like changing mystrategies, changing my learning
style, my lifestyle that reallyhelped make the change. So I'm
sticking with Angus and maybepeople call me King to say some
of my legal name. Maybe somedayI'll adopt that, which is closer
(17:42):
to my legal name. But in the endnow the name is just the name
and maybe I can make somethingof it. That's where I am at now.
And in terms of culture, am fromHong Kong. It's now Chinese, I
guess, but I identify as HongKong Chinese because Hong Kong
used to be a British colony andI was raised in Wales. So I have
that sort of Britishness in me.But again, at this point I go,
well, I'm Angus no matter whatat this point, and whatever
(18:05):
culture I want to be identifiedwith, I need to know my roots
and then I need to acknowledgethem properly. So that's where I
am at now.
Paul Cruz (18:12):
You are passionate about lifelong learning
practices. How do you fostercollaboration and inclusivity in
educational settings to supportneurodiverse learners?
Angus Chan (18:22):
Right. Number one, I would three things. Number one,
I need to believe in what I'mlearning and also believe in
what I'm teaching. So I need to,that comes on that, that would
drive that conviction and thatpassion towards it. Number two,
it would be a curiosity in otherpeople.
Again, it's hard to work withpeople that I don't want to know
anything about. I mean, it'sthere, but it's kind of like the
(18:45):
passion's gone similar to like apartnership or a romance. If the
fire kind of dies in themarriage, yes, there's
commitment and that's veryimportant. But if there is a way
to spice things up, curiositywould be one of the ways to do
that. Yes, it helps things goalong.
And number three, I think it'sthe idea of working together. At
the end of the day, yes, thereare things I go, for me, and I
(19:08):
have to be careful about this, Igo, I can do this faster, more
efficiently, whatever, bymyself, just based on the
training. But number one, thatsounds bad coming out like this.
And number two, sometimes itdoesn't work because there are
things that is better donetogether. And if we need to do
it together, let's say forteaching, right?
Yeah, I know the stuff, but itisn't about me. It's about the
(19:29):
students learning this stuff. SoI have to match their pace. For
team projects and collaboration,yeah, of course I can do it
faster, but this is not like agroup project that you just need
to hand a product in. No, thisis building a team.
So yes, it, you do need, I hadto learn, in my graduate school
years, it's like you spend moretime training a team, but that
time, and when it goes well andwhen you're finished, it's worth
(19:51):
it. So I, for example, I, I wastasked to start this club, this
is international student club,and I poured my heart and soul
and time in, but what reallymade it work three or four
generations later, because I wasthe first student president,
like four student presidentslater, the people don't know me
anymore. And that's a sign. Thisis like, no, they know the club,
(20:12):
they know the current president,the system is established, and
so I have done the job ofestablishing that system that I
was tasked with to do. So in thesense of the leadership then,
it's not this sort of likemodesty or humidity type of
thing, where it's like, oh no,no, it's not about me.
It is, it is has to, there's youin it, but it's about others. So
there's one quote here. It'slike about humidity. It isn't
(20:34):
about thinking less of otherpeople. It's thinking, thinking
less about yourself, or isn'tthinking less of yourself, it's
thinking less about yourself.
Something like thinking yourselfless versus thinking less about
yourself.
Tayaba Khan (20:44):
Exactly. Yeah. That type of thing. Yes. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's true.I think the students now in
particular face a challenge.Whenever you give them a group
project, I always get, you know,10 or 12 emails. Do I have to?
Angus Chan (21:01):
Yes.
Tayaba Khan (21:01):
Can I do this alone?
Angus Chan (21:03):
Yes.
Tayaba Khan (21:03):
You know, in so many words, they're they say by
my coworkers and my stew youknow, my group members are, you
know, idiots. And, you know, Ican do this better. And then you
have to try to teach them. Youknow? You will come across
people and you you can't changeyour coworkers.
So you have to you're better offchanging your spouse, but it's a
(21:24):
little more tricky when you'retrying to change your workers.
So coworkers. So you have tolearn how to work with them,
negotiate with them, barter withthem, compromise. So I think
that that's absolutely correctwhat you're saying. That's a
very important, again, back totransferable skill that the
students need to learn.
(21:44):
So you, in our lastconversation, you were kind of
mentioning about holisticwellness that you bring to your
work. So how do you integrateit? Tell us the process of how
do you integrate it within youreducational programs and in your
interactions with students.
Angus Chan (22:01):
Right. First, in any context of program, it's a
matter of priority. So you canhit, you have schools that say
this now, and student servicesthat say this, your health and
safety is our priority. And thatis true. And if that priority
remains, then at least the drivethen is like, okay, it's not
just about the grades.
It's not just about, let's saythe employment outcome. Those
(22:24):
are important for metrics andthings like that, but for the
student and for the person, thenit's like, oh, okay, well, the
health is first. So in thatsense, let's say for teaching,
then yes, as a teacher, I needto understand that the stresses
that students are going throughand to be careful as to like,
okay, yes, the student could bestressed about, let's say
(22:47):
completing their program ontime, or they have family issues
or particularly forinternationals or anyone with
family that's far away, theycan't reach right away. What if
something happens to the family?I don't want that to happen.
But if something were to happen,then they're, it's out of their
reach. They want to dosomething, but they can't. Or if
something happens to them, thefamily's out of their reach and
(23:07):
it's hard to go to get help. Andeven for like doctor's notes, it
costs money now. And if you'renot insured, you're an
international, it's way tougher.
So having to work with that. Sosystemically speaking, I believe
that, and I see schools doingthis, that it's important for
the school to build a studentsupport program or division that
really treats that policy withrespect and treat the students
(23:30):
with respect. So then as aninstructor, I can refer with
confidence students to thosepolicies and go, yes, the
student service will take careof it, so the instructor can
focus on the teaching andtraining of the student. So in
that sense, if that is notthere, then the instructor will
have to do it, which adds totheir load, but it is important
(23:52):
to pay attention to thosethings. As far as for my work
then, it is less so, because Ideal with less with students,
but I also pay attention tothings like, okay, where's my
own work life balance orharmony, so to speak?
And how does that tie in with mycoworkers that I work with? And
how is it working with them? Sothere are things that my
director would look after in thecontext of my role, because I'm
(24:13):
not, I'm not quote unquote incharge of the division per se.
We have someone that does thatand I leave it to that person
that does that. But at the sametime, I don't want to add any
burden to my coworkers or to mydivisional school.
So I just pay attention thatway.
Paul Cruz (24:27):
As an academic quality assurance coordinator,
what challenges andopportunities do you encounter
in creating sustainable andinclusive programs for diverse
learners?
Angus Chan (24:37):
Right. I think it begins internally with the, with
the teams I work with. We havea, we have a, we have a team
that we're building to make astructure out of the program
review. I gotta be careful. Istill work in the school, but,
all we're saying is, is thatit's, it's going and we have,
it's a work in progress andwe're overcoming those
(24:59):
challenges.
Challenges like making sure wehave a structure that works for
all program reviews and not justone at a time. So, and it's
like, okay, it's not like we'rejust trying to build a plane as
we fly it, which doesn't soundvery good, but sometimes it has
to be done that way becauselet's say we're understaffed or,
and my position was created tohave that. So I have to do my
(25:21):
job and I want to do my job inbuilding that structure so then
everybody wins. That's one ofthe challenges of overcoming. In
terms of the benefits then,we're seeing the benefits of
like, okay, we're building thatsort of awareness and building
that trust for the faculty togo, yeah, we're here to help
with this.
It's not just a governmentministry thing that the school
(25:44):
has to fulfill, but it alsogives the faculty and the school
an opportunity to receive thefeedback, to give their own
feedback and go, oh, what'sworking for us and what do we
need to improve our program andmake things work better for us
this way. So I think that'swhere I'm placed right now to do
that program review in thecontext of like course
(26:05):
evaluation and surveys,outcomes, and also in starting
in to do institutional research.So those, those are some
challenges and sort of benefitsare coming out of this right
now, this year.
Tayaba Khan (26:16):
Nice. Nice. So your story is fascinating. You're
coming from Hong Kong, then youwent to UK, then you came to
Canada, all three different, youknow, completely different
cultures, so to speak, you know,very, very different dynamics
going on there. So, and youemphasize the importance of
working with diverse communitiesand cultures.
So any initiatives or projectsthat you carried out where you
(26:38):
were able to bring, other peoplefrom different cultures, help
them gain perspective of eachother?
Angus Chan (26:44):
Right, right, right. So when I was a student, I was,
and a lot of it is I'm verythankful and I'd say fortunate
to be given those opportunities.And then it was, it was my, the
onus is on me to, you know, takeit and run with it. So let's say
when I was a graduate student,I, somebody asked me to run an
international student club. Andso, yeah, I ran with it.
(27:06):
It started with literally twohandfuls of people, like eight
people. And there was like sevenstaff and one international
student in our first clubmeeting, which was kind of sad,
thinking about it now. But it'sgone from like the eight people
to like 30 people and then 60people. And a lot of that was
thankful to, it was SFU at thetime. They had the Interfaith
(27:28):
Center and they had other clubsthat saw the value of this.
And even the InternationalStudent Club at SFU, they didn't
oppose. And they're like, Hey,if we can join, we would. And
that's the other thing. So itwas those partnership of like
clubs joining other clubs andpartnering up. And then the
professors saw value in it andbecame guest speakers sometimes.
And so we are, we are numbershave gone up for the last, when
(27:52):
I was there before years, itgone from like eight, sixteen,
thirty, forty. And then at somepoint we reached like 80 people
at one point and it goes up anddown because of exams and so
forth. So the initiative reallyworked and that was over there
where I learned the importanceof partnership. When I was
working in student services,was, we started committees and I
(28:14):
joined some committees like thescholarship adjudication
committee. We started aninternational student committee
and working with internationalstudents and go like, well, this
is a group that needs extrahelp, quote unquote, not to
stigmatize them, but there arereasons why they need the extra
support being an internationalstudent.
That's where we were comingfrom. And we also have things
like going out to support thevulnerable and other things like
(28:37):
a door is open or other, othersort of urban type of work. And
that was the thing that we go,okay, not only are we helping
the students per se that needhelp, but we're also encouraging
students to help others and oneanother. So it's that idea of
like, oh, we're not just doingthis for ourselves, We're doing
this with other people. Andmaybe if we have the resources
(28:58):
for it, we can do it for otherpeople.
So right now in my work, in myadministrative work, I look to
build connections. So there aresome initiatives, just some fun
ones where I make office signsfor, for, for father offices.
Cause, the, the standard one wehave is just a white piece of
paper with, with words on it.Now there's me being an art
(29:21):
school, they make their ownsign, but what if like we are
administrator and you just, youknow, want to get on with your
day, but want something nicer? Ihave a small background in
graphic design and creatinglogos and stuff like that.
So I thought, okay. This is agood way for me to know the
other offices to connect withthem. But at the same time,
there's something in it forthat. Overall for the past year
we've been doing that. We madeabout like, you know, 80 office
(29:43):
lines, cause there's someturnover sometimes and some
changes and whatnot.
Wow. Sometimes it's assigned forone person. Sometimes it's
assigned for like 20 peoplecause they're all instructors
and these are the instructorsthat go to that office. So then
it's like, okay, it's even thepurview of my work because I
have to know these things sothat I, it became an opportunity
for me to go, okay, how can Iconnect with other people
(30:05):
through that process?
Paul Cruz (30:06):
Yeah. What changes or advancements would you like to
see in how higher educationsupports neurodiverse students?
Angus Chan (30:14):
Right. In terms of changes I would like to see,
this is one area that I findinteresting, because I am pretty
sure lots of people are talkingabout this, but then the ratio
of how much is talked aboutamongst educators and amongst
professionals, and even inpodcasts like this, and how much
gets done is totallydisproportionate. I can, I don't
(30:36):
think, I don't think that's toostrong to say that? What I would
like to see, again, I often liketo begin with myself and I had
be careful when I say this,because my wife goes, maybe it's
your ego talking right now. Havemy masters.
Maybe it's my turn. If it helps,if it helps, not just boost my
ego or whatever, I will firstsay there's that. So I'm not
gonna hide it. I'm not gonnadeny it. It's there.
(30:58):
But if there's something more toit than that, let's say if it
helps me help other people.Like, okay, like right now, if
my master's is enough to feed myfamily, if it's enough to make
enough impact within mysurroundings and circles, that's
fine. Why spend the extra moneywhere it could be saved or
(31:18):
whatever, right? But if thereis, if circumstances lead to go,
okay, I can be in a position tohelp more people, like let's say
systemat, systemat, or aninstitution, it could be
institutional research oreducational leadership, and go
for neurodiversity. Let's say,Oh, we have this.
A friend of mine, he's thedirector of inclusive education
at Regent Christian Academy. Andhe was blogging about like the
(31:40):
most recent Canadian thing wherethey go, Oh, the funding for
inclusive education has gonedown. No. And we're talking
about it. Okay, well, if thereis funding for UDL, Universal
Design Learning for Learning, ifthere is funding for EDI or
JEDI, which I find it ironic,the JEDI order died out.
So if you name it after Jedi, Iknow that might ruffle some
(32:01):
feathers because the Yes.Anyway, the intent is there. If
there's funding for these twoprograms and others that go
like, okay, why not inclusiveeducation, which I would believe
is on the same line of thesethings. And it's from the K to
12 and having worked with from Kto 12 and see how they're
supposed to prepare students forpost secondary and beyond. If
the preparation is not donecorrectly and the gaps remain,
(32:24):
let's say academic writing, butthey don't teach that.
Math, they don't teach thatenough. Time management, you go
from a system of handholdingstudents at the eight, eight,
you know, day one, day twostructure or whatever. And then
you throw students intoscheduling their own time and
they think class time is all thetime they got. It's like, no, in
terms of that, I were in aposition or somebody at least,
(32:46):
they were in a position to golike, Hey, can make these
changes in educationalleadership. Maybe it starts with
one school.
Maybe it goes to multipleschools. Maybe the ministry
picks up on it and goes, okay,well, this theory works. Let's
use it. Then it would start tobenefit the municipality and
maybe the city and beyond. Imean, I dream big at this point,
but where I would begin is like,Hey, what sort of platform, what
(33:09):
sort of partnerships and whatsort of priorities would be
there to help make that happen?
I understand there's like alearning disability society.
They got some high fire folks inVancouver that would do stuff
like that. And there'salternative high schools. So I
think with cumulative knowledgeof this stuff, I would like to
see ways of making the communityand the committees go, this is
(33:34):
how we can come together. It's abit like the pride parade, but
at the same time it's like,okay, if there are different
neurodiversity agencies andorganizations out there, is
there a way to go, what is ourunited vision?
What are sort of the ways we canhelp schools go, okay, this will
work for all parties. This willwork to make the school better.
(33:54):
One example of this would beMontessori education.
Montessori's model wasinitially, I don't think we know
this, maybe I'm speaking to thelisteners, where it's like, it
was initially used forvulnerable children or disabled
children, but then it works sowell, now it's used for gifted
children. So maybe that side ofthing sets precedent to go, Hey,
(34:15):
if we do something forneurodiversity, we see the world
differently.
I'm speaking we here as theneurodivergent. Or at least when
we look at it through that lens,maybe there's some solutions to
some long standing problems thatcan be solved this way. Maybe.
That's And why I would like
Tayaba Khan (34:28):
you're so right. I mean, I see a lot of students
who come into our programs andthey have absolutely no clue how
to manage their work. They don'tknow how to reach out to their
teachers. They don't know even,you know, if they're stuck
somewhere in their homeworks,they don't know that they don't,
they don't even realize thatthey can actually come to the
teacher and ask them. And it's
Angus Chan (34:49):
so, and you might say,
Tayaba Khan (34:52):
exactly. Exactly. So you're like, wow, it's for
us, it's common sense. Youshould be as an adult learner,
able to problem solve and reachout to the right people to get
an answer for yourself, but youdon't. And you're so absolutely
right.
This is a conversation I've beenhaving with my, one of my
colleagues at work that we,post, you know, from, from high
(35:14):
school to post graduation, thetransition is so murky. And I
feel like a lot of the studentsjust fall through the cracks
because they didn't know how tostudy. Like, you know, coming
back to, you know, yourexperience from before, right?
You had to, you had to figureyourself out as to how you would
study and not everybody fits inthe same mold. Right?
(35:38):
So, yeah, you're absolutelyright. So you like, what I hear,
you like spending time with yourfamily and you like new foods,
exploring new foods. Is thatcorrect?
Angus Chan (35:48):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, food brings a lot of people
together. There's a couple ofquote unquote F words, not F
word, that brings peopletogether. Food is first.
And that's something we use atthe International Student Cup.
Food, yeah, you smell somethinggood. You wanna eat, you're
hungry. Food, something fun,friends, and then some type of
fellowship, a journey orwhatever. Those are some f
words.
Yeah. Family. Yeah. That'simportant. Family.
(36:09):
So, yes. So
Tayaba Khan (36:11):
how you know, those are, of course, your personal
experiences, you know, youexploring something outside, but
how does, how do you think thatthose personal experiences have
also, you know, have they helpedyou get a professional
perspective on diversity, oninclusion?
Angus Chan (36:26):
Right. I think for me, it is interesting because I
have to learn several things.Number one, me as a
neurodivergent, so to speak. Andthen there's the people closest
to me. My mom was number one inthat order.
Then now it's like, sort of myI'm working on that. So then
it's like, they worked with me,right? And it's like, what is
(36:47):
their experience? A lot of folksthat seek the help, it isn't
necessarily the childrenthemselves. The first one would
be the parents or their primarycaregiver.
It's like, they usually, usuallyI'm speaking in general here,
usually are not neurodivergentthemselves, or at least they're
high functioning enough to seekthe help for their children. And
(37:09):
then now it's like a doublechallenge. Number one, you have
to manage your own life. Andnumber two, you have to manage
that person's life and you'reseeking help to do it. So in
terms of professionally, it'slike, okay, just me thinking
about my neurodiversity is notenough.
So in a way, working for sevenyears in that nonprofit
government sector has reallyhelped me learn a lot because it
(37:31):
is one other thing to work withpeople in that sector. Then when
myself in that sector, there areadvantages and disadvantages.
For example, for me, and I'mjust speaking freely now, it's
like, I can see them and I canread them fairly quickly,
because it takes one to know oneso to speak. But at the same
time, I have to be aware, maybeI have the similar difficulties
(37:53):
or I have my own difficultieswhen I'm working with them. So
for example, like from ourconversation, I can take things
into detail and break them down.
But when it comes to buildingrelationship, there's no time
for that. That's not whatthey're for. And it's just the
building up the liking and it'smore of a vibe thing. So it
comes across as like my firstimpression or the things we do
(38:15):
or the things they feel, whatthey feel and remember about
you. So one barrier of practicefor me would be my own family.
And as a personal reflection islike, yeah, I can go, I can
chase towards some profession orwhatever, but if I forget my
family, this is a reminder formyself that my wife and I would
tell myself and go like, if Iforget my own son, then I failed
(38:37):
them and I failed my ownprofession and so forth. So I
often am reminded of that and Ihave to be careful of that. So
in a way, the better husband andfather and human being I am, I
can, I can, I'm confident aboutmy professionalism, but if I'm
not no longer human, if I'm nolonger a husband and father,
then what's the point of mebeing a professional? Because
(38:58):
that's what the people feel. Andthat's the bound, that's the
basis of the relationship in thefirst place.
That's what I believe anyway.
Paul Cruz (39:04):
So in your role at Emily Carr University, how do
you ensure that courseevaluations and program reviews
address the needs ofneurodiverse learners?
Angus Chan (39:14):
That's a wow, that question really makes me think.
Because there's a balance.Research wise speaking, every
time we change a question, thatchanges not only the question
set, but that also changes thewhole dataset. So, and this one
didn't come from me. This onecame from the director of the
teaching and learning center.
They wanted to change thequestion to make it more
(39:35):
inclusive. And I'm totally onboard with that. Lots of people
are on board with that. And thenwhen it came to actually doing
it, well, it takes more timethan we thought. It's going to
change the question.
We're going to have to look atthe data differently. And my job
at the time, and my job there isto go, well, these are the
different things we have to lookat based on that. And so
(39:56):
together, me and the directorare like, we're being more
informed together and go like,you know what? We would like
this change to be made, but weneed to spend more time on this
to make it work. So in thatsense, it's like the changes we
want to make them.
And this is where I understandfrom the backend, where if you
hear it from the front end, it'slike, it's not happening yet.
(40:16):
Oh, we're still working thingsout. And it's like, you're not
delivering the promise that youmade, or you're not meeting our
expectations. And this is whereI'm torn because the researcher
in me goes, yeah, we want tomake this change work. So for
me, I would like to go, yeah,there are ways to make that more
efficient, to automate thatprocess.
So then the changes we make canactually happen sooner and more
(40:40):
effectively. So that's the sortof thing I want to build in
making that more inclusive,because the nice thing is there
are people that, that, are soldor bought in already that want
to make this change. We have astudent rights and
responsibilities person, acoordinator, we have
accessibility manager, we have astudent support and we have
indigenization and so forth. Wewant that in there and so do I.
(41:03):
So my job then is to go, how dowe make that system work so then
we can come together and dothat?
And one area of that would beinstitutional research and the
data governance, or at least thedata management. So that would
be my world right now in termsof how I can make that more
inclusive. Because at the end ofthe day, if we want to do
evidence based research, we needto work well with that evidence.
(41:27):
Because again, that's the systemwe're in. Yes.
Working with the system, notcheating it, not necessarily
beating it, but working with it.
Tayaba Khan (41:34):
Yeah. So, so far we have been, you know, since the
start of this conversation, onething I've noticed is we, it's
the neuro divergent populationsthat are advocating for
themselves.
Angus Chan (41:44):
Yes.
Tayaba Khan (41:45):
Right. Kind of a lonely battle at times. What do
you think the institutions cando to better advocate for
neurodiverse individuals,especially in their academic and
professional settings?
Angus Chan (41:57):
Well, I'd say, and this is half joke, I say this as
half joking. If you put aneurodivergent person in charge,
the human condition kicks in,right? For better or worse,
changes will come with that sortof vested interest in mind. Let
me give some positive examples.This is from BCIT, and this is
again So during of all timesduring COVID, BCIT built their
(42:21):
office of international studentsand also made a building for the
office of internationalstudents.
And so what made that work wastop down. So they had the board
on board, they have the governorand so forth on board. So it's
not like a grassroot effort,which ties in with the whole,
like lonely uphill battle,pushing the boulder up the hill
type of thing. Right. So in thatsense, how would that challenge
(42:44):
work in terms of theapplication?
I think in digitalization orsort of like the gender bred
person or that type of thing,where you go like allies or
champions or advocates. Thoseare all well and good, I think,
but I think they come from aperspective of the dominant
group. Like this is the dominantgroup that goes, I want to be an
(43:05):
ally for the minority group. Ifthe neurodivergent group is
labeled as minority and it'sabout hill battle for the
minority group, then the onlyhelp they're gonna get that is
from the non minority groupwould have them to come from the
dominant group. And then whatmakes the dominant group want to
help?
Tayaba Khan (43:25):
Okay.
Angus Chan (43:26):
One way to, and again, this is from my
perspective. I go, well, it'slike Inception, the movie, where
it had to make them think it'stheir idea, and part of it is
their idea. Okay. They want tohelp, but maybe like the how,
maybe sometimes even the why.It's not like us telling them
that they need to help us, butit's like, if the timing is
(43:49):
good, if the buy in is there,then it's like building that
relationship and then gettingthat buy in is there, which is
why I think this is why it worksin some institutions, but not
others, because the person incharge isn't necessarily
neurodivergent or supportive ofthat or knows somebody.
So I think in that sense, it's abit of a lottery going on, that
(44:12):
part is left to chance.
Tayaba Khan (44:14):
Yeah, maybe leave some sticky notes at their
station. Oops, where did thatcome from?
Angus Chan (44:18):
Well, I think this is where, as of history, and
this is where I go like, hey,history is boring. There's in
fact like pictures on the web ofa history lecture and the people
were falling asleep in medievaltimes of that lecture. But it's
important that history is aboutpeople. And this is like
learning from history, okay,well, the history of, let's say,
Black People's History Month orAsian History Month. In
(44:39):
Vancouver, there's a museum forChinese culture now in downtown,
in Chinatown.
But how did those happen? Ithink there's two pronged
approach is similar to theresearch I did with the
indigenous hope of culturalcontinuity. And what we found
there was, is that if there isthings that help the group, the
indigenous band, the firstnation band, have their own self
agency. So their own government,their own school, their own
(45:01):
hospital, their own firedepartment, their own police
department, those are the thingsthat help them stand on their
feet, so to speak. And then thisbenefits the children that have
a route to go back to.
So in that sense, it would be achallenge for the neuro diverse
community to build those things.So I think in the sense, I can
see what this podcast is doing.Yes, there are people including
(45:23):
myself, like, oh, I wanna behurt, selfishly or whatever. I
wanna speak up. Great.
But I would imagine, and pleasecorrect me if I'm wrong, if this
is a way of gathering the voicestogether, as I can read the
embracing every mind, sharingevery voice, and that sharing of
the voices then becomes, youknow, building them. Then, and
then, okay, maybe there, maybethere could be more like a
(45:45):
Canadian autism network orautism speaks where you go,
okay, you build a structure outof it. You build a business
model out of it. And then, andthen this can build a community
out of it. Maybe then those areways of like raising awareness,
building support, gatheringresources, training
professionals and so forth,where you can build that.
Cause there's a teacher shortageright now, I think, among other
(46:07):
things. And so maybe, maybe downthe road that can make some
positive changes that gosystemic. Who knows?
Paul Cruz (46:13):
Yes. So Angus, to wrap things up, we have a
segment called theNeurodiversity Myth Busting
Segment. We also hope toencourage our listeners to
submit their responses to thesix myths that found on our
website. Yeah. And we mayfeature them on our next podcast
episode.
So we will ask our guest speakerto give us his thoughts on one
(46:36):
of the myths as
Angus Chan (46:37):
well. Okay.
Paul Cruz (46:40):
So, yeah, first myth is neurodiverse individuals are
less intelligent. Second,neurodiverse individuals cannot
succeed in the workplace. Third,neurodiverse individuals lack
social skills. Fourth,neurodiversity is a disorder
that needs to be cured. Fifth,neurodiverse individuals are all
(47:04):
the same.
And sixth, neurodiverseindividuals are always
introverted and prefer to bealone.
Angus Chan (47:12):
How many of those, miss? Is it for next time or
this time? Just I just wanna besure.
Tayaba Khan (47:18):
If you wanted to pick one.
Angus Chan (47:19):
Oh, one.
Tayaba Khan (47:19):
Which one would you want to bust today?
Angus Chan (47:22):
Bust. Okay. Can go in order if you want. I think
the first one was people withneurodiversity are less
intelligent or not asintelligent. Is that the first
one?
Tayaba Khan (47:30):
Yep. That's the one.
Paul Cruz (47:32):
Just pick one of them and then bust one Okay. Of
Angus Chan (47:35):
I'd say the first one is probably the easiest to
bust. I mean, add this type in,you can Google search somebody
famous, and then you attach someneuro diverse condition next to
it. And you're probably gonnafind something Einstein, Elon
Musk anyway, but it's often youmake associations and coming
(47:59):
from my own perspective is like,well, it can be done as a coping
mechanism. It can be done as away to go, oh, wait, just trying
to see who's out there. And it'sone thing to go looking your own
circle and some neuro diverseconditions are invisible and
others are less, more visible.
Then, so in that sense, in termsof intelligence, I think
(48:21):
intelligence in this way is alsoa mask of the neuro diversity.
Giftedness and sort of likecertain conditions or disorders,
that's another myth to bust,because I'm using the word
condition as we probably would.They often can not only
compliment each other, but theyalso sometimes sort of
overshadow each other, so tospeak. So I think in terms of
(48:43):
that myth I would say if it's aperson to person context and and
let's say a person startssharing that they have some sort
of neurodiversity I think thatthe assumption of intelligence
has already been made regardlessof the condition. You meet with
that person and go okay yeahthat person makes a judgment
call or an impression is thatperson intelligent or not.
(49:05):
So I think then if thatassumption has already been
made, then any condition that isdisclosed on them would just
sort of add fuel to the fire.Oh, if that person thinks the
other person's intelligent andthen they hear about this, oh,
okay, that person is specialnow. They're intelligent because
of that condition or whatever orthey have that condition because
(49:25):
they're intelligent. They mightmake that kind of confusion. If
it was a negative connotation,that person's less intelligent,
it's like the attribution error.
Then that condition that, okaythey're not intelligent because
of that condition. So I wouldsay in that sense, the myth here
isn't necessarily about theconnection between the person's
intelligence and that condition.It's really more about the
(49:47):
assumptions, the stereotypesthat I'll start with myself,
that I make with that conditionor with intelligence as a whole.
Because even the theory ofintelligence, again, associate
my field, like that theory ischanging. They used to do like
multiple theories ofintelligence, their outputs fall
out of favor, my IQ test isstill a thing because it's
standardized in a way, but atthe same time now you have
(50:11):
transferable skills or skillbased intelligence and so forth.
Then I believe a way to bustthat myth is to learn about both
of us. Learn what intelligenceis and how that has changed.
Learn about neurodiversity andhow that has changed. And I
think that would make a moreinformed connection between the
two and then it would helpworking with people and go well
(50:34):
okay what's your intelligence ifyou're asking that question
what's your neurodiversity ifyou're asking that question and
then looking at them firstseparately and then maybe ways
together as long as you
Paul Cruz (50:44):
get to know that person. So thank you, Angus,
sharing your story and expertisewith us today. Thanks for having
me. That's all for today'sepisode of the Neurodiversity
Voices podcast. Thank you somuch for tuning in and being
part of this importantconversation.
Tayaba Khan (51:00):
We hope you found today's discussion insightful
and inspiring. Remember, everyvoice matters and together we
can create a more inclusive andunderstanding world for
neurodivergent individuals.
Paul Cruz (51:12):
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a
rating or a review on yourfavorite podcast platforms or
share it with your friends,family, or anyone who might
benefit from theseconversations.
Tayaba Khan (51:25):
If you have any questions, ideas, or stories
you'd like to share, please feelfree to fill out our listener
feedback and survey form or evenapply to be our guest speaker on
our website,www.neurodiversityvoices.com.
We'd love to hear from you.
Paul Cruz (51:41):
Until next time, take care, stay curious, and keep
celebrating the beauty ofdiverse minds.
Tayaba Khan (51:47):
Thanks for listening to the neurodiversity
voices podcast.
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