Episode Transcript
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Paul Cruz (00:05):
Welcome back to the
Neurodiversity Voices podcast.
I'm Paul Cruz.
Letara Couto (00:10):
I'm Letara Couto.
Paul Cruz (00:12):
And we will host this
episode. We're so excited to
welcome today's guest, TamsenHawken, a specialist mental
health mentor supportinguniversity students across The
UK who completed her PhD at theUniversity of Bath. What makes
Tamsen's work so impactful isher lived experience. As a
(00:34):
queer, neurodivergent woman whogrew up in a rural, Cornish
village, Tamsen knows firsthandthe power of visibility,
support, and finding your voicein spaces that weren't always
built for you. She's passionateabout creating inclusive,
empowering environments.
We cannot wait for you to hearher story.
Letara Couto (00:57):
Tamsen and I both
found purpose through our
struggles throughneurodivergence and parenting
neurodivergent children andthrough navigating identity and
finding your voice in academia.That whole idea of transforming
challenging experiences intosomething empowering for others
is what draws people like us toadvocacy and psychology. How do
(01:21):
you feel about that wholemultiple, Tamsen?
Tamsyn Hawken (01:24):
Yeah, thank you
for that introduction. It's
really good to be here andrecording today. I'm really
looking forward to sharing moreabout my experience, my personal
experience, my experiencesthrough my work and yeah, just
that kind of key part ofcreating the inclusive
empowering environment becausethat just feels so important to
(01:47):
me and I just recognise andconstantly see the value of
providing a safe place forpeople to just be themselves and
actually sometimes learn whothey actually are. So I can't
wait to share more about that.
Paul Cruz (02:01):
Can you share more
about your journey of self
discovery and how you came toyour ADHD diagnosis?
Tamsyn Hawken (02:09):
So my sort of
journey with my diagnosis and
getting some of those labels formyself began a couple of years
ago when I, my living situationchanged enormously. I was living
nomadically so everywhere I wentmy home came with me. And I lost
(02:31):
that sort of in an instant. Itmeant that I kind of was
confronted with a realisationthat that way of living had been
really supporting me and mywell-being. So to lose that and
to have to start living betweenfour walls and in a house again,
just little things likeforgetting my ID card to get
(02:55):
into work or forgetting mylunch.
Whereas previously I'd been ableto just nip out to my van
because that's what I was livingin and grab those things or I
forgot my gym gear. It's fine,it's all in my van, I don't have
to remember anything. Equally ifI needed to be somewhere early I
could travel, drive nearby, staynearby, and not have to worry
(03:17):
about being on time or anythingthat might kind of get in the
way. So all of those kinds ofstrategies were just pulled out
from underneath me and my lifestarted feeling very, very
chaotic in a way that it hadn'tfor quite a long time. So I
started to consider thepossibility that I might have
ADHD.
I spoke with a few people andactually the majority of people
(03:40):
were kind of like, I wouldn'tsay that. Like of all the
neurodivergent boxes thatwouldn't be the one I'd dip. And
I didn't really think anythingof those comments until a few
months later I was working oneto one with a kind of a coach
and she sent me a link to a listof traits autistic traits in
women. I looked through the listand was kind of
(04:03):
gobsmackedincredibly rattledbecause I was like, oh wow, I
feel like I tick every singleone of these. That was when I
kind of started to consider thepossibility that I might be
autistic as well.
I kind of journeyed with that alittle, a little bit, decided to
try and seek a diagnosis. Andthen it was just over a year
(04:24):
later that I was diagnosed withautism. And then a few months
after that, that I was alsodiagnosed with ADD. The ADD
diagnosis was about six monthsago and the autism diagnosis was
about eleven months ago. Socoming up to a year.
Letara Couto (04:43):
And how did that
feel growing up in like a very
rural village?
Tamsyn Hawken (04:49):
I think I didn't
really kind of notice anything
really in terms of myneurodivergence. I don't think I
really noticed anything growingup. Was, I lived on a farm, I
was outdoors all the time. Likein many ways my environment was
quite supportive of myneurodivergence. And even in
(05:10):
kind of school, the kind ofclassic traits, if you like, the
stereotypical traits weren'treally there.
So I think in some ways itreally helped because I was in a
supportive environment in asense of it just, nobody really
kind of battered my lid, butequally there wasn't a great
(05:32):
deal of representation either.So I think that's partly why it
took me such a long time tostart to have those
realizations.
Paul Cruz (05:39):
How has your lived
experience as a neurodivergent
individual shaped your approachto mentoring students?
Tamsyn Hawken (05:47):
It's been a
massive learning curve for sure.
I remember when I first startedin the role in sort of late
twenty nineteen, I would havestudents sort of say to me,
particularly female students sayto me, oh, I think I have ADHD,
like I'm pursuing a diagnosis.And I remember thinking, being
(06:09):
exactly the person that, youknow, I found frustrating when I
was going through my kind ofprocess of kind of being
thinking, really, you don't seemlike the kind of person that
would have ADHD. Because I waspretty clueless about it really,
you know, like a lot of people,I just had that classic naughty
boy at the back of theclassroom, couldn't focus, know
(06:31):
that very outward representationand manifestation of ADHD. But I
had these students coming in andsaying, yeah I've got a
diagnosis, I've got a diagnosis,which made me have to really
change my views and what Ithought in my head somebody with
ADHD looked like or you knowcame across as which was quite
(06:55):
confronting at times.
I'm like oh my gosh I've hadeverything wrong. I'm actually
really, really grateful to thestudents that I've worked with
who have allowed me to kind ofjourney with them. I would never
have learned as much aboutneurodivergence if I hadn't been
working with some of thesestudents who were exploring it
(07:16):
for themselves and sharing itwith me. I think that's such a
privilege and working one on onewith people and figuring it out
together as we go along I thinkis the best training possible.
Know I was always very carefulto make sure that the approach I
was taking was helpful ratherthan harmful.
For the most part that's beenthe case. But it's made me
(07:40):
realise and how my ownexperiences I think have
impacted the work I do is that Iwas really grateful for the
people who celebrated myneurodivergence as I was
exploring it even before I got adiagnosis. I always kind of say
the people who kind of saw mystripes and really appreciated
(08:03):
them, You know, they kind of sawall of that and allowed me to
unmask and to figure it out. Andnow, as I've said before, that's
something that I'm reallycommitted to is being a space
where people can figure it outand be clumsy and practice being
assertive and actually maybe,you know, feeling like they're
being a bit blunt or asking fortheir needs to be met in a
(08:25):
particular way and allowing themto figure that out in a safe
space so that they can get theconfidence to be able to do
that, you know, out in the realworld inverted commas. I think
as well, my lived experience isone that doesn't fit the
stereotypes of the naughty boyat the back of the classroom.
I was never that person. I wasthe grade A, really diligent,
(08:50):
really attentive to some extentstudent because studying was
kind of and learning was kind ofmy special interest when I was
younger. So it's also made mereally go there is no single way
that somebody who'sneurodivergent presents.
Letara Couto (09:06):
So when you say
unmasking, can you explain a
little bit more about what thatwas like for you or for some of
your students?
Tamsyn Hawken (09:14):
Yeah, for me,
it's really interesting because
when I was exploring bothaspects of ADHD and autism, the
ADHD I was relatively okay with.The autism, I was like, oh my
gosh, this changes everything. Ithink there was an element of
ADHD. You can get medication andthere's almost like a treatment
(09:37):
as such for it. And ADHD is kindof like something you have and
autism is something you are.
That was kind of how my braininterpreted it at the time.
Interestingly, for me, myautistic traits are ones that
are actually quite valued.Things like organization and
being on time and being really,you know, attention to detail,
(09:58):
being quite a good friend inthat sense, remembering
birthdays, remembering that thatfriend had an appointment last
week and asking how it went.However, the ADHD traits were
less kind of appreciated andsocially acceptable. They were
forgetting to reply to messagesor putting off replying to a
message and then thinking I'veleft it too long.
I can't possibly do that now.Or, you know disappearing off
(10:23):
the face of the earth for acouple of weeks and then being
like full on for another coupleof weeks. Not being as kind of
organized in some areas of mylife as others. So the unmasking
was really a challenge for mewith the ADHD because I also
valued how organised I was. Soyeah, the ADHD unmasking was a
lot harder for me, but equally Idon't know whether I'd call it
(10:45):
unmasking sort of honing thosekind of autistic traits and
actually not being ashamed ofthem I guess.
So yeah, the ADHD unmasking wasa lot harder for me. But
equally, I don't know whetherI'd call it unmasking but sort
of owning those kind of autistictraits and actually not being
(11:10):
ashamed of them, I guess.
Letara Couto (11:12):
Ashamed. Yeah.
That's I find, like why I said
label in the beginning isbecause I just find that
sometimes when I can label mytraits as, like, this is not,
something that I should beashamed of. This is something
that comes from dealing withADHD. And if I actually just
(11:34):
label it, then I can figure outsome things that I can do.
But once I can say, oh, this isbecause, you know, I have
rejection sensitivity and itactually has nothing to do with
me and I can label it as that,then it's actually easier for me
when I get in that zone to belike, nope, this is actually
just what we're dealing with.And it's okay. Everybody has
(11:56):
their own lives and everybody'sbusy. That it's so much easier
for me to accept it. And it istrue, like, to not take on that
shame and keep it on me as if Ineed to collect the shame for
everyone and myself.
Tamsyn Hawken (12:12):
Yes. Yeah,
totally. One thing for me was
kind of making peace with thisidea that I'm highly strung, you
know, that I need to know whereand when. You know, when a
friend says, oh, let's justlet's just check-in. We'll meet
at six and let's just decidebeforehand what we're gonna do.
(12:32):
No, sorry. Oh, I can't do it.Some days I can, if I'm the one
saying it, but that's the ironyI think of the ADHD autism is
kind of like somebody else isorganizing something. Need to
know where, when, what. But ifmy kind of ADHD is in the
driving seat, I'm like, yeah,sure.
You know, whatever. Let's, let'sdo, let's organize it nearer the
(12:53):
time.
Letara Couto (12:54):
Yeah. Again,
because it goes back to that
owning it. Right. It's so true.Once you can say this is because
of this and you can own it, thenit's easier to talk about it
openly and find those safespaces where they do accept your
stripe.
Tamsyn Hawken (13:08):
Yes. Yeah,
absolutely. Definitely.
Paul Cruz (13:12):
What message would
you like to share with educators
and professionals working withneurodivergent individuals?
Tamsyn Hawken (13:20):
Be open minded.
Whenever somebody says to you
know, I'm neurodivergent, I'mautistic, I have ADHD, I'm
dyslexic, whatever it might be,try as hard as you possibly can
to keep your mind open and kindof talk to this person as if
they're the first person you'veever met, you know, who's
(13:44):
neurodivergent. Like seeing themas like a fresh slate, a fresh
page and don't put judgments orstereotypes or preexisting ideas
onto that person because they'regoing to be probably finding
things hard anyway. And they,they don't need that. Just being
open minded to what theirexperience might be and what
(14:09):
their needs might be as well.
As easy as possible for peopleto ask for their
Letara Couto (14:15):
needs to be met,
Tamsyn Hawken (14:16):
They might not be
able to be met, know, the need
that they have might not be ableto be met in the way that they
would ideally like to. You knowmaybe it just can't work because
of the system or whateverresources, whatever it might be.
But being open and giving them aspace where they can ask, think
is so important because itactually empowers people to take
(14:39):
responsibility for themselvesand to feel an element of pride
when they ask for their needs tobe met, you know, rather than
them being kind of secondguessed or that kind of thing.
Letara Couto (14:52):
Yeah. I, I find it
just very interesting that you
yourself, with autism and ADHDhave spoken one on one to people
and have had that same thought.Like, oh, I didn't you don't
look you don't seem likeneurodivergent. So what if what
could you say to an educator orjust a person that has no
(15:14):
experience with neurodivergencythat they know of to be a little
more open minded unlike howsometimes you used to have that
thought?
Tamsyn Hawken (15:22):
Like I say just
being really kind of conscious
of what biases might be comingin, what judgments might be
coming in. And then alsoeducating yourself and educating
yourself from a variety ofsources. You know, books,
YouTube, social media. There'ssome amazing stuff on social
(15:44):
media at the moment and actuallysocial media, Facebook,
Instagram, you know, that's beenhuge for me learning about
myself.
Letara Couto (15:53):
And understanding
because we're all going, we all
deal with someone or deal withourselves experiencing
neurodivergencies. And I justfind what's very empowering
about social media is listeningto somebody else's lived
experience. And then being like,oh my goodness, I'm not alone.
Tamsyn Hawken (16:13):
Yeah. But also
what I love is going, oh, this
person's autistic. And they saysomething and I'm like, no, that
doesn't capture me at all. Buthow amazing, you know, that's
the whole spectrum. Like howamazing that I've just learned
about how autism is experiencedfor somebody else.
(16:33):
And I try really hard now toexpose myself to different
groups of people, you know,older people who have got a
diagnosis, people in theirfifties, sixties, seventies
even, exposing myself to that.Mothers, I'm not a mother, but
exposing myself to parents whoare kind of dealing with
(16:54):
neurodivergence.
Paul Cruz (16:55):
Have you found spaces
in academia that truly feel
inclusive and adaptive or isthis still something we're
working toward?
Tamsyn Hawken (17:05):
I haven't and
it's interesting. I actually put
a post out on social media aboutthis today because I loved
academia and in many ways Ithrived in it. Patterns,
collecting data, puttingstructures in place, research.
Absolutely loved it teaching,really enjoyed that. I applied
(17:28):
for a couple of lectureships,got interviews, but turned them
down.
I got offered a postdoc. Iturned that down because there
was just something in me thatwas like, I don't think I'm cut
out for academia. That was kindof what I was saying. And it
felt like a truthful statementand not a self deprecating one
either. It was just, we're amismatch.
Now what I realise is actuallyacademia isn't cut out for me.
(17:51):
It's not that I'm not right foracademia, it's just that
academia isn't or at least whenI was applying sort of five, six
years ago, academia wasn't cutout for me. It wasn't accessible
for me. The amount of energy andwork that it took to be able to
(18:12):
operate and function withinacademia in a way that didn't
mess me up was so big that I waskind of like, I don't, I can
keep doing this. I don't, I wantto use this energy in other
areas of my life.
And at that point I didn't evenknow I was neurodivergent. You
know, that point it was moreabout having a chronic illness
and having to manage thatalongside academia. So I think
(18:36):
it's something that we're stillworking towards. I haven't been
in academia for five or sixyears now. Obviously I have an
insight into it with thestudents I work with.
I think the students I workwith, some of them find pockets
of inclusive and accessiblespaces. It might be a particular
(18:59):
lecturer or tutor that they havea real affinity with and gets
the way their brain works,celebrates it, works in the
right way. Or it could be withina society that's based on a
student society that's based ontheir special interest. And
suddenly they're like, oh, thesepeople are kind of like me in a
similar way. But I definitelythink there's still a lot of
(19:19):
work to do and that's again whyI'm so passionate about being
that space because I haven't hadit and I know how positive
having it can be that if I can,you know, even if I only worked
with someone for a few weeks, Iwant them to go away feeling
(19:39):
like the space I provided wassupportive and inclusive and
adaptive, you know, andaccessible and all of those kind
of buzzwords, but essentiallysafe.
That's something I am so liketalk about until the cows come
home, making students feel safe,being a safe space where
everything is welcome, likeeverything.
Letara Couto (20:01):
I wanted you to so
the safe space and you talked
about like your friendsaccepting your stripes. I know
you have this beautiful storyabout the zebra and the manuals
and I just wanted you toelaborate on that because I
think everyone needs to hearthat.
Tamsyn Hawken (20:18):
People were
talking to me and kind of
saying, well, why do you want toget a diagnosis? Why do you want
to get a label? You know, why isthat important? Just be
yourself. Just find places whereyou're accepted and all of this
kind of thing.
I had a, I had this dream duringthe diagnosis process, where I
(20:42):
was in this field and I knewthat I was a creature of some
sort. And I was in a field withhorses and I was looking around
at these horses and I couldn'tkeep up with them. The food they
were eating didn't agree with meand I was just different to
them. And eventually it kind oftranspired in this dream that I
was actually a zebra. I wasn't ahorse and being able to kind of
(21:09):
realize, okay, I'm not just afunny looking horse.
I'm actually a zebra andactually being in an environment
that is supportive of zebras andyou know have other zebras
around me is really valuable.That kind of moment of being
like, oh okay I'm not the wrongversion of something else, I am
(21:29):
actually different. And thatkind of being a positive thing.
The other kind of metaphor andthe other thing that I used to
say to people was about howactually getting a diagnosis
very much felt like being giventhe right manual for my brain.
(21:50):
And I compared it to two kitchenappliances, a kettle and a
toaster, and how both of theseitems heat something up.
But you do not want to beputting water into the toaster
and you do not want to beputting bread into the kettle
because that's not going to gowell. And it's kind of like, oh,
actually I've had a manual for akettle when I've always been a
(22:13):
toaster. And it's like, okay,now I've actually got the right
manual. I can start kind ofusing myself in the way that I
was meant to and actuallyfunctioning in the way I was
meant to, and getting theoutcomes that I was meant to.
Letara Couto (22:30):
Yes. I love those
stories. Honestly, I've been
thinking about this since thefirst time we talk. I think
they're so amazing. I've eventalked to my students about
them.
So I'm glad we got, I hopeeveryone hears that because wow,
what a powerful thing to say andwhat a powerful dream to have
when you're on that journey.
Tamsyn Hawken (22:50):
Yes. And what's
even weirder is that in '20,
gosh, when would it have been2013, 2014? I was visiting a
friend and like four or fivehours away from Bath where I was
at the time. And we went intothis garden center and I am not
an art person. Like I canappreciate art, but I don't
(23:13):
really buy it.
It never even crossed my mind.But there was this picture on
the wall of these two zebras.It's not the one like I've got
one behind me now, but it's notthat one, but they are kind of
like interlaced. Their heads aresort of on each other's sort of
shoulders. One is black andwhite and the other one is
rainbow colored.
(23:34):
And I bought it and I couldn'treally afford it at the time. I
had no idea where I was goingput it. We couldn't, we could
only just fit it in her littlecart on my friend, But I had to
have it. And now, know, tenyears later, I look at it and I
just think, oh wow, I had noidea how special that piece of
(23:55):
art was actually going to becomebecause it just feels like it
represents everything and I'llnever ever get rid of it.
Letara Couto (24:03):
Definitely meant
to have that. And zebras must
mean something special to you.
Tamsyn Hawken (24:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
My special interest at the
moment and has been for the lastcouple of years is horse riding.
So I think there's like anelement of that. That's possibly
why that dream kind of camethrough. And then also the
zebras that I was looking atconstantly, on my wall, it kind
of came together for thatperfect dream.
That was really helpful andactually gave me, like I said,
(24:29):
gave me a way to explain it topeople and helped them to kind
of go, oh, actually. That makessense. My special interest at
the moment and has been for thelast couple of years is horse
riding. So I think there's likean element of that. That's
possibly why that dream kind ofcame through.
And then also the zebras that Iwas looking at constantly, on my
wall, it kind of came togetherfor that perfect dream. That was
(24:53):
really helpful and actually gaveme, like I said, gave me a way
to explain it to people andhelped them to kind of go, oh,
actually. Yeah, that makessense.
Letara Couto (25:03):
That's amazing. I
love a good metaphor too. And I
just find like what a beautifulthing to go through while you're
going through your journey ofdiagnosis and also being able to
express what's actually happenedinside of you to people and not
hiding. But also being able toexpress it in a way where you're
(25:24):
being so true to yourself. Ilove a good metaphor.
Like, for us, like, if there's astudent maybe going into post
secondary and they're kind of ona similar journey to you, what
advice would you give someonejust entering post secondary or
(25:45):
transitioning or who's feelingunsure or just even invisible?
Tamsyn Hawken (25:50):
My advice would
be to try and find, sometimes
create a space where they didn'tfeel invisible, where they did
feel seen, which can be so, sohard to do when you're feeling
unsure because that's a really,really vulnerable place to be in
(26:13):
when you yourself are uncertainand haven't got things figured
out to then be seen in thatplace by somebody else. It takes
an enormous amount of courage.Finding that space if you can, I
think is really, reallyimportant? The other thing, and
my students I think sometimes Idon't see it but I sense like an
(26:38):
eye roll at the end of mysessions or during my sessions
when I'm kind of like, you knowwhat I'm going to say, which is
to be kind with yourself, to begentle with yourself, to give
yourself a bit of grace, torecognize you might get it wrong
and you might explain thingswrong to certain people, or you
(27:00):
might come out of a situationand be like, I really didn't
want a mask there, but I did.Being compassionate with
yourself and like I say, givingyourself that grace and time to
figure things out.
Most people have that process offinding their self identity
(27:20):
during childhood, maybe teens.And people tend to give people
that age a bit more grace and abit more sort of permission to
get it wrong and mess it up. Soas you get older I think that
gets less and less. There's lesspatience, there's less kindness.
So it's really important to giveit, give it to yourself.
(27:41):
And there will be days where youfeel like the grottiest person
on the planet. That you feellike you just mess everything up
or that you're doing it wrong oryou're not cut out for it.
Creating that safe space isabout in a first session what
I'm doing is trying to putpeople at ease. I'm telling them
that everything is welcome andthat I am never judging. I'm not
(28:08):
sort of thinking, oh wow thatperson has just told me that
they haven't brushed their teethfor five days.
I'm not thinking, ew, I'mthinking okay what's going on
there? You know what's happeningthere? And approaching it with
curiosity and compassion. Somaking that known to the
students that I'm working withfrom the get go that like I say
(28:28):
all is welcome, there isn'tanything really that could shock
or surprise me or make me thinkbadly of them. And that's mainly
because I felt that process withmyself.
Know, I've looked at some reallydark parts of myself that I
didn't really like and tried tohide and felt a lot of shame
about. And I've, you know, sortof shone a light on those and
(28:50):
really got to grips with them.So kind of being able to hold
that space for myself feels likeI can then hold that space for
other people. So all is welcome.And modelling.
Modelling a lot of the time.Being kind to myself if because
my autism doesn't let it happenbut if I'm running a couple of
(29:11):
minutes late, you know,apologizing but being kind to
myself and obviously takingresponsibility, being kind to
myself and taking my vacationand my holiday when I need it.
Practicing what I preach a lotof the time. More recently where
it's felt appropriate,potentially sharing my own
(29:32):
experiences if I feel like itcan help a student go, I'm not
the only one, you know, kind oflike you were saying before that
they're not completely on theirown with it. Cause a lot of the
things that they're sharing,they do feel shame around.
They do feel vulnerable aroundand they may not have actually
told anyone before. So alwaysholding that with a sense of
(29:56):
privilege and honoring whatthey're sharing. And like I say,
if it feels appropriate kind ofbeing like, yeah, you know, I
can understand that. And this ishow that is for me. I've had
students be like, oh wow.
Okay. That means I'm not crazy.And I'm like, well, it either
means you're not crazy or itmeans we go far. So, you know,
(30:18):
it depends whether you feel likeyou're in good company or not.
But yeah, you know, that's,that's a shared kind of
experience.
Letara Couto (30:25):
Yes. And thank you
for the reminder that we're not
actually broken, that sometimeswe just have been reading the
wrong manual.
Tamsyn Hawken (30:32):
Exactly. Yeah. Or
we've put these coping
strategies in place thatactually once served a purpose
and maybe no longer do, becauseI think that's the other thing
is sometimes I'll have studentswho are behaving in ways that
they, they kind of know aren'tright and that doesn't feel
right to them. So not right asin like right or wrong
(30:53):
externally, but doesn't feelright to them. They kind of know
there's a better way or adifferent way that they could be
handling it.
But the first step is thatawareness of what's this
actually doing for me? Like itmust be doing something positive
for me. It must be serving somekind of purpose. So like as an
example, and this is kind ofleaning more into the kind of
(31:17):
mental health side of things asopposed to necessarily like
neurodivergence. But I had onestudent who used to drink quite
a lot of alcohol and would sendmessages to friends saying that
she wasn't in a very good place.
And those friends would be like,I'll be right over. They would
come over, she'd hang out withthem. And the next day she would
(31:39):
feel quite a lot of shame andregret about the way that she'd
handled it. So we kind ofexplored that and we said, okay,
well how is this actuallybenefiting you? What are you
getting out of it?
What need is being met by youdoing that? And the trick was
that she felt really lonely butshe didn't feel worthy of
messaging a friend and beinglike, Hey, I'm feeling a bit
(31:59):
lonely. Do you fancy poppingover tonight? You know, there
was the fear of rejection. Therewas a lot going on.
So it was like, okay, now weknow what this is doing for you.
We can find and explore otherways to meet that need. So it's,
it's kind of going, we're notbroken. And these, but these
coping strategies might be now,you know, they once served a
(32:22):
really, really helpful purpose.They helped you survive
potentially.
Whereas now maybe there's adifferent way or a better way.
And I think that's where thekind of trauma informed aspect
of my work comes in where it'skind of recognizing that.
Letara Couto (32:37):
That's amazing. So
do you talk about this stuff on
social media and where canpeople follow you?
Tamsyn Hawken (32:42):
Yes. So I do talk
about this stuff on social
media. I am on Instagram and Iam on Facebook, Tamsin Hawkin
PhD. That's kind of where youcan find me. And yeah, I'm
posting about things and I'mactually in the process of sort
of developing a couple of onlinecourses that are around things
like self advocacy for peopledealing with long term health
(33:05):
conditions, mental healthconditions, neurodivergence,
like within academia, withinstudies.
So yeah, how to advocate foryour needs, how to even know
what your needs are in the firstplace. And yeah, I've got a
couple of other courses in thepipeline as well.
Letara Couto (33:20):
Amazing. So Timton
Harkins, PhD?
Tamsyn Hawken (33:23):
Yes, that's me.
Paul Cruz (33:27):
Do you want us to
add, promote, or share anything
with our listeners?
Tamsyn Hawken (33:31):
Don't think so.
Just my social media and just
that I do work privately. I'vegot some availability to take on
private students over the nextcouple of months. I work with
students 16 plus online. So Iwork remotely with them and I
can do more coaching.
So just a few weeks or months ofreally focused work, but then
(33:52):
also kind of more on the morementoring side that tends to be
longer term and a bit more sortof gentle and a bit more holding
and going a bit deeper than thecoaching.
Paul Cruz (34:04):
If you leave
listeners with one key takeaway
about embracing neurodivergence,what would it be?
Tamsyn Hawken (34:10):
It's really
ironic because I said about my
students rolling their eyeswhenever I say it, being kind to
yourself, having patience withyourself, recognizing
neurodivergence, coming to termswith neurodivergence. Those are
the steps before embracing it.And it can be rocky. It can be
really painful. It can be a lotof grief.
(34:30):
There can also be a lot of joy.And it's being kind to yourself
and embracing all aspects of itbecause actually embracing it
and learning about it and beingkind to yourself in the process
means that you can explore somuch about yourself and start to
(34:52):
feel proud of who you are, whichmeans you then get to show more
of who you are to the world,which in my eyes is one of the
most important things that we doin our lifetime, is to become
more of ourselves and to sharethat with other people.
Letara Couto (35:10):
I miss and the
grace. It's a beautiful thing to
leave off on because grace issomething something that's
really, I feel like, easy forsome people who experience
neurodivergence to give, but notnecessarily to ourselves. So
give yourselves grace andkindness, the same as you would
(35:30):
to others. But thank you somuch, Tamsen, for coming on the
Neurodiversity Voices podcastand letting people hear
everything you have to saybecause what a little treasure
trove of information.
Tamsyn Hawken (35:44):
Thank you. Thank
you for having me. It's been
really lovely and I always thinkthese opportunities are a
continuum of that embracing yourneurodivergence. Know, This in
itself for me is an embracing.It's sharing it.
I haven't really shared openlyprior to this, so not online
(36:08):
anyway. So actually it's been areally kind of a gift for me
actually to be able to do this.So thank you.
Letara Couto (36:15):
Yeah, thank you
for coming and sharing. And you
know what? Everyone's going tobenefit by listening to this and
just feeling less alone.
Tamsyn Hawken (36:25):
Hope so. Yeah, I
really hope so.