November 24, 2025 • 46 mins
Guest: Andrew Letchuk—an autistic, disabled, and neurodivergent advocate, writer, and podcaster—to explore disability justice, representation, and what true access can look like in everyday life.
Andrew shares his journey through special education, diagnosis, and post-secondary accommodations, and how those experiences shaped his identity as a disabled person and pushed him into advocacy. Together, they unpack the differences between disability rights and disability justice, discuss media stereotypes of autism, and envision what it means to build accessible events, classrooms, and movements from the ground up.
This conversation is part story, part political education, and part invitation: to listen to disabled expertise, honour lived experience, and practice disability justice in our daily choices.
Connect with Andrew Letchuk:
Our Voices podcast: Our Voices: Conversations of Disability | Podcast on Spotify
Disability on the Street blog: Disability On The Street | disability issues neurodiversity social justice
FUTURES program (for interested listeners): Futures - The AccessStudio
Tangled Art + Disability: Tangled Art + Disability
The Disability Collective: Home | The Disability Collective
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Andrew Letchuk (00:00):
This is misconception about us autistic
(00:02):
people that we don't care aboutpeople, but the fact is, we do
care about people and Iunderstand that I can't speak on
behalf of all autistic peoplebecause of different lived
experiences, but we do careabout people it's just we show
it differently. We express ourfeelings differently. So, we may
sometimes have struggle with eyecontact with other people or we
(00:23):
tend to stammer or we talk toofast, but that's what makes us
unique makes us what us human.
Paul Cruz (00:35):
Hello and welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices
podcast. I'm your host, PaulCruz, and we're thrilled to have
you join us on this journey ofexploration, advocacy, and
celebration of neurodiversity.
Gino Akbari (00:48):
And I'm Gino Akbari. Together, we'll have
meaningful conversations, shareinspiring stories, and challenge
misconceptions aboutneurodiversity. We're so excited
(01:14):
to have you as we celebrate thebeauty of diverse minds and work
toward a more inclusive future.
Paul Cruz (01:20):
So sit back, relax, and let's get started. Welcome
to the Neurodiversity Voicespodcast. Today, we're joined by
Andrew Leczuk, an autistic,disabled, and neurodivergent
advocate with a deep passion fordisability and social justice.
Andrew is a proud graduate ofthe Educational Support and
(01:43):
Disability Studies program atSheridan and Toronto
Metropolitan University. Hehosts the podcast Conversations
of Disability and Rights forDisability on the Street.
When he's off the mic, you'lllikely find him walking around
Toronto browsing vintage shops,exploring coffee spots, and
(02:07):
listening to music. Andrew,welcome. Thanks for being here.
Andrew Letchuk (02:10):
It's my pleasure. I'm very honored.
Paul Cruz (02:16):
Let's start with your story. Which moments in your
schooling and early life mostshaped how you understand
disability and access today?
Andrew Letchuk (02:26):
So this is a really great question. So with
my personal narrative, it'sreally important to talk about.
Starting with how I was testedfor autism at my first school,
Riverside Public School. I wasstruggling in mainstream
education from grades one, two,and to the first month of grade
three. So the principal atRiverside, Bruce Mercer, who
(02:49):
just now retired, he recommendedme to be tested by a
psychologist and they found outthat I was tested for autism.
My parents were advised totransfer me to another school
that had an ASD program and Iactually live not too far from
Riverside, which is like ten orfifteen minutes from here, so
walking by that school has beenvery personal, brings back like
(03:12):
a lot of memories but then Ionce I started Britannia on my
first day 10/12/2004, accordingto my old school agenda, I was
placed into a smaller class withother autistic children with a
few ERFs or teaching assistantsAnd so I felt that I felt more
included into the school system.Special education is something
(03:37):
that has been a part of my lifethroughout Britannia Public
School, Camilla Road SeniorPublic School, and up to West
Credit Secondary School. Specialeducation helped me learn how to
grow as a person, learn how tobecome successful in my
education. There's the phrasefalling through the cracks has
often been brought up with mymom, because I've been we've all
(03:59):
been talking about howremembering the times of what
when I did this, what happenedto me back then, but with middle
school, especially in gradeeight, I had a school
psychologist named Doctor.Roberts.
So he took me into like anotherroom from my ASD class and
basically he gave me a series oftestings based on my
linguistics, mathematics skills,reasoning and critical thinking,
(04:22):
so because it was also in theworks of developing my
individual education plan orIEP, so that carried all the way
into high school. So I was alsoplaced in a resource room called
Homebase, so it's basicallydesigned for in my time, it's
for vocational one and twostudents. So I was a vocational
two student in my program. So Iit's kind of also helps me get
(04:48):
free access to like foremotional support from my ERFs
or from Kathy Hill, who is nowretired from West Credit. And
also coming up to accommodationsand accessibility, post
secondary education has beenvery important chapter in my
life, especially with when itcomes to having access needs met
and having accommodations likehaving the right to have so
(05:11):
under the Human Rights Code ofOntario.
But like with accessibility,special education, diagnosis has
been what really shaped my livedexperience of being disabled.
Because I mentioned the worddisabled for two reasons from
one, the social model lens ofdisability, because disability
has always been a very sociallyconstructed and political
(05:32):
phenomenon. So I am disabled bythe attitudes in society,
especially if it's from in theworkplace setting, or like in
education or like withgovernment related policies. But
I'm also disabled by the medicalmodel of how autism has been
pathologized by medical doctorsand families and occupational
(05:54):
therapists, etc. So I want toclarify on that why I use the
word disabled.
Not everyone prefers to haveidentity first language, some
choose to have person firstlanguage, so it's like a matter
of personal preference. So likethe social constructions of
accessibility, special educationhas helped me get to where I am
(06:14):
today as a person.
Gino Akbari (06:19):
And Andrew, you went from navigating the systems
to helping change them. How didthose experiences move you into
advocacy as a writer andorganizer and podcaster?
Andrew Letchuk (06:31):
I really feel that with navigating through
those systems, it really helpsme wanting to make social change
for my community. So I justwanna share that I'm actually
starting my leadership programcalled FUTURES. So I just had my
first meeting last night and wewere talking about like the
overview program of what toexpect. So we'll be having like
(06:52):
guest speakers, workshops. We'realso gonna be having like this
activation project, so it's likea community project where we
work independently and alsoworking with other people.
So, I really feel that thisprogram for instance would
really help me learn how toamplify my voice and to promote
awarenesses in the community, solike bestow power to other
(07:14):
people who have been silenced orbeen oppressed or marginalized.
I want to be clear that I can'tspeak on behalf of the entire
community because disabledpeople's experiences are
nuanced. So we're talking aboutgender, sexuality, race,
religion, class, and I identifyas a white settler as autistic,
disabled, and also asexual andaromantic. So our experiences
(07:35):
are very nuanced. So I want tonavigate those systems to base
from my experience to makepolitical change, to make other
people's voices feel heard.
And so that's why I use like mypodcast as well. My friend
Christina had told me that I'vebeen centralizing disabled
voices in my podcast as like acompliment. And that's what was
(07:56):
my intention with Our Voices. Wewant to ask the listener, what
does an accessible world looklike? Imagining them, what would
this world be if it was ableistfree and inclusive and
diversified?
So going back to the Futuresprogram, so I really am excited
to be learning how to become aninnovative leader, learning how
(08:18):
to build lifelong connections,and as what Christina and I were
talking about, relationality, sohow we relate to others. So I
really want to build like a webof community.
Paul Cruz (08:32):
Many people know disability rights but you also
champion a broader frame. Forfolks who know disability rights
but not disability justice, howdo you explain the difference in
everyday terms?
Andrew Letchuk (08:46):
Thank you for that question. So to start off,
disability justice was born outof a movement that was designed
from white heterosexualprivileged disabled men, because
like especially with the ADA Actin 1990 of The United States and
with AODA in Ontario. Sodisability rights was more of
(09:07):
catering to privileged disabledpeople, so especially that it
only caters to that kind ofgroup, but disability justice is
born out of social movements,basically grassroot movements
that is rooted in feminism,queer, crip feminism, black
indigenous people of color. Sobasically, disability justice
was like a political platformfor trans two spirit LGBTQ folks
(09:32):
to make their voices heardknowing that disability justice
doesn't speak for them. So, inwhat ways can we make a movement
that responds to our experienceswith oppression and when it
comes to ableism, madness, orsanism, which is like a type of
prejudice against people withpsychiatric disabilities.
So disability justice is morecatering to people of color who
(09:56):
have been oppressed or beenexperienced systemic bias or
gender bias. So it's I just Idon't want people to be confused
with disability rights andjustice, but I presume that it
goes can go hand in hand, but wewant to make sure that
disability justice is theforefront. Like disability is
doesn't is should not be onlyviewed as to people who are
(10:20):
heterosexual or who are white orcisgender. We also want to
consider nuanced sexualities,gender, class. So it's a very
diversified concept and acommunity.
Gino Akbari (10:36):
So let's put those ideas into practice. Which
disability justice principlesfeel most alive in your work
right now? And how do they showup day to day?
Andrew Letchuk (10:47):
I could bring up one of the principles from Sins
Invalid, which isintersectionality. So the reason
for that is that I also haveautistic friends who are people
of color, especially women ofcolor as well from middle school
and public school and in highschool as well. So
intersectionality is I've beenmostly following disability
(11:07):
figures who are who identify asa person of color like Mia
Mingus, for example. I reallylike her work because she talks
about how accessibility is notjust about providing wheelchair
ramps or doors, but it's alsolike a support network, like an
open access support, likeworking interdependently. So
like what that person needs,what can I do for you, or how
(11:30):
can we work together to makethose needs met?
So intersectionality isimportant into my work because
you have people in my communitywho are living in poverty, for
example, or experiencing trauma,or colonial policies in
government in provincial andfederal policies. You also want
to talk about how disabledpeople of color are experiencing
(11:52):
homelessness. So, important toaddress those issues with people
and also kind of giving themthat voice to make other
people's voices feel heard. So,you have transgender folks or
those who are queer or nonbinary, and I know that what's
happening not only in Canada,but The United States, knowing
that the Trump administration istrying to destroy or trying to
(12:14):
roll back on the rights movementor the disability justice,
because like now that withqueer, trans and disabled BIPOC
folks are being targeted,especially like with racism and
Christian nationalist ideologyand ableism, ableism is still
around. You have internalizedableism, you have benevolent
(12:35):
ableism, systemic ableism.
So I really feel thatintersectionality is one of many
principles that must bechampioned in the work we do as
activists.
Paul Cruz (12:47):
What patterns or tropes in autistic
representation do you see most?
Andrew Letchuk (12:54):
I love this question. So stereotypes have
been a very interesting subject,especially not only in
educational settings but mediarepresentation for instance. So,
have like The Good Doctor orRain Man or there's another
movie called Sing no, I can'tremember the name of the title
(13:15):
but it was directed by Sia. Sobasically, the film has an
autistic girl as the mainprotagonist. Unfortunately, the
actor in real life is notautistic.
So, cripping there's this ideacalled the cripping up, which is
a concept in which able or nondisabled actors play disabled
(13:36):
characters. So, it's basicallyit's like a Halloween costume
that you wear and then you putit on a coat rack. And so, was
actually for instance, I was inToronto yesterday and there was
a costume at Spirit Halloweenthat says blind referee and I'm
thinking, I saw this last yearand knowing that disabled
costumes are disability is not aHalloween costume, the same
(13:56):
thing with autism. If someone ispretending to be autistic, it's
not only insulting, but you'redisrespecting someone who
actually has autism, whether itcould be non speaking or those
who could be stimming or thosewho have like Asperger's
syndrome. So I feel that that'sanother one prime example.
So another one is called theAutistic Savant trope, so
(14:17):
basically portraying autisticpeople as unempathetic or who is
incapable of struggling to careabout other people, so, and this
is misconception about usautistic people that we don't
care about people but the factis, we do care about people and
I understand that I can't speakon behalf of all autistic people
(14:37):
because of different livedexperiences but we do care about
people, it's just we show itdifferently. We express our
feelings differently. So, we maysometimes have struggle with eye
contact with other people or wetend to stammer or we talk too
fast, but that's what makes usunique, makes us what us human.
So like with mediarepresentation has been this
(14:59):
site of stereotypes, and Ipresume that Hollywood is still
trying to include more and hiredisabled actors. Historically,
people have been misunderstoodas people who we people assume
that we act weird or we looklike like as freakish, like
we're as freaks or as spaz, butthose misconceptions are not
(15:22):
true.
It's most of them are quiteableist, especially especially
parents who have an autisticchild, they don't even some of
them may not know how to respondor to how to raise their
autistic children. So sometimesthey turn to TV shows or if
someone who is interested aboutautism, if they're not in a
resource room or like a studentcould be outside of a home based
(15:46):
program who is neurotypical, andthey would just make us laugh at
us or give us dirty looksknowing that you're not like,
just don't treat us like withrespect. If you follow these
stereotypes, if you watch moviesthat have stereotypes, you're
gonna, would assume that we actlike that in real life, but what
I want to say is that listeningto disabled people, we are the
(16:08):
experts of lived experience.Autistic people are experts, you
could ask questions just knowingabout like what they know about
autism and how they relate tothe world, how they connect with
the world having an autisticbrain, or you could ask someone
about who has ADHD or having alearning disability or having
epilepsy. So I emphasize thisclearly in the work that lived
(16:32):
experience by disabled people isimportant.
Expert knowledge is important.And there's a difference between
expert knowledge andexperiential knowledge where you
have experiential knowledgecoming, experiential knowledge
comes from doctors orprofessionals who believe that
they are the experts of autism,like based on research, where
(16:52):
you have expertise knowledgefrom disabled people, we have
the lived experience, we haveproper knowledge, whereas the
medical profession just know oftheir knowledge based on bias
through research andpresumptions. So, with media
representation, medicalprofessional worlds, it's
important for people to knowthat you shouldn't always rely
(17:15):
on media on movies andtelevision to understand
disability. While it's great toinclude that in like an episode
or a movie plot, but to rememberthat disabled people are the
experts of lived experience, soalways turn to them. I feel that
first of all, it's important tolearn how to be professional
(17:39):
about it.
Had an experience in theemployment center at South
Common Mall in Mississauga lastspring. It was like an intake
meeting where this woman who Ishall keep it privately, she
asked me if I had like adisorder or a disability and I
felt comfortable of disclosingit because it's my choice to
(18:01):
share my disability. So I said,well, I was diagnosed with
autism. And then from the lookof it, she said, from how I see
it, you don't seem to haveautism. And then she lectured me
about how everything, noteverything in life is permanent.
So I sat in my chair and Idon't, I didn't want to lash
out, but I felt, I felt antsyknowing that I wanted to say
(18:23):
something instead of being madabout it, I would say I was
technically diagnosed twentyyears ago, which was last 2004,
which was twenty one years agothis year. So when people say
you don't look autistic or youdon't look sick or you're,
you're faking your illness, oneof the one of the things that I
(18:43):
can say that it could lead tointernalized ableism. If someone
tells you that and then it willmake you start to doubt yourself
if you're really disabled. So, Itry not to let that get to me
because I know that for whatlike one, she doesn't know or
doesn't have the right todictate how autistic people look
(19:05):
like. You can't see all thetraits, not all autistic people
have the same traits and I wastalking about this with my
friend Theo from my meeting lastnight about how people say you
don't look autistic enough to beautistic.
So, and we would say, so what doyou, how do you define autistic
people? So, I would reallyrecommend not to be defensive
(19:27):
about it because you wannareally wanna keep it
professional and I know that itrarely happens a lot to me, but
I know a lot of people who havechronic pain or people who have
like heart conditions or likewith medical disabilities,
people often take one good lookat you and just assume that you
don't look disabled, especiallyin a prime example where you're
(19:49):
parking in an accessible lot,and then you have your parking
license, accessibility license.Let's say you're not allowed to
park there, it's illegal. Youdon't look disabled. So what
does autism or being disabledlook like to you?
So a lot of it's a matter ofignorance. So if you take one
(20:10):
good look at someone, you'rejust assuming that invisible
disabilities are no such thingto them. But I've really been
wanting to talk about this andeducate people about invisible
disabilities. Like people oftenmistaken disability as a
physical entity, like thevisibility, but there are people
(20:30):
who've been posting on LinkedInsaying like not all disabilities
are visible. Some look likethis.
You have like a just like ahuman person looking fine and
all that, but you can't see whatthey're going through. And
especially with autistic people,we tell people that well, you
don't know what it's like to beautistic if you're not in our
shoes. You don't know what it'slike having difficulty learning
(20:51):
to start a conversation withsomeone or just wanting to learn
how to start a conversation.Like there are times where like,
I sometimes have a bit ofdifficulty trying to start a
conversation where I just lookat someone and waiting for and
hoping for someone to come andchat with me. But the fact is,
it's not it's not all about howto get it's not about to get you
(21:14):
have to put the work into it.
So and that's how I like tolearn it through icebreaker
activities, which I've done lastnight. So, it was like my way to
it was like the way to help melearn to start a conversation
with another disabled person.Like, there are there is a
tendency for me to get veryanxious or just get very shy,
(21:34):
like I just don't know how totalk to that person or someone,
but then really, reeling back toabout that filling into the
shoes, a non disabled persondoesn't know what it feels like
to be disabled or feel like anoutsider to the ableist world or
into this near typical group ofpeople, especially at West
Credit, especially the schoolthat I went to. So I have always
(21:57):
tried attempted to fit in intothe in crowd, so like with
people who want to be popular,but I felt like I wasn't being
myself, was wearing likeclothing that I would not wear
today, and I ultimately regrettrying to fit in with those kind
of people because that's justnot me. So when I found my
disability community, it reallyfelt like home, knowing that
(22:18):
with disability politics andissues that that speaks the same
language and the experiencesthat I've been dealing with my
life, and knowing that it's justlearning to be about yourself,
just being yourself.
So I really feel that it'simportant for people to not
assume or to not make themistake of judging us just
because of our physicalappearance. We may you may see
(22:41):
us as if we're normal, butespecially for neurodivergent
folks, we are often stigmatized.We are often judged by people,
especially like with employersor in the educational or
institutional care, people oftentake one good look at us and
say, you look fine, you looknormal, but I just want to
clarify that we are invisiblydisabled, it's just you can't
(23:04):
see our traits.
Paul Cruz (23:08):
Let's shift from narrative to the nuts and bolts
of Axis. If you could redesignone common event from invites to
follow ups, how would you bakein Axis from the start?
Andrew Letchuk (23:20):
That's a really good question. So what the first
thing that I would make sure isto be negotiable and be flexible
on a person's availability. Sofor instance, with my podcast, I
always want to do follow upswith a person to see if what
their the best day to talk on mypodcast. I'm the kind of person
(23:41):
who don't put pressure onpeople, like say, for instance,
we're gonna do this day andexpect to follow that day, but
what if someone something cameup in someone's availability or
like a death in the family orlike work related, like last
minute work availability. SoI've I've always been respectful
on that because sometimes ourschedules can be compiled up
(24:02):
with work related or like withlike grading papers, for
example, or working at a job ortaking care of like our own
children or like with a familymember.
So like with invites, I alwayswant to make sure that it's
accessible like through email.So I basically, I try to do my
best clarify on what to expectfor like a podcast interview,
like we're gonna be doing audiorecording, I will also, if
(24:25):
you're interested to send like,I'll send you like a transcript
for instance, if you'reinterested, so I want to be very
clear that the language is clearand concise and not to be like
using jargon language. The samething if I was invited to do
something, I wanna make surethat the instructions and
directions are clear andconcise. And what I mentioned
earlier about negotiation, solike kind of like negotiating a
(24:48):
good time and day to talk. So,and then if someone wants to
reschedule, and I am- then I amall up for it.
Like there's no rush. I have norush or deadline to do this
episode, like running at my owncrip time. So which is kind of
like a concept, whereas adisabled person uses their own
(25:09):
set their own pace and time intheir own space to do like a
project or something.Flexibility and negotiation is
my way of making sure that aperson's availability is
accessible and helps for thatperson to be prepared of how to
respond to the interviewquestions and the answers that I
look for in my podcast.
Gino Akbari (25:32):
Access also shows up in how we share the mic. On
our voices, how do you balancetelling your story with
amplifying others, especiallyguests with different identities
and needs?
Andrew Letchuk (25:45):
Great question. So, I want to start off like, I
want to talk about power based,powered knowledge. So, it's just
like in research where you havethe researcher and the
participant if we're conductinglike a research study on
disability justice, for example.So from all my podcasts, I want
to make sure that the guestspeaker that I choose or chose,
(26:07):
they make sure that theirknowledge is heard or valued
because I have this moral that Idon't want to really speak too
much of my lived experience. Iwant to talk about it, but I
also want to balance it withother people's lived
experiences.
So like kind of like a contrast.So I don't really want to over
dominate like dominate like theconversation. So, it's important
(26:28):
that participants also haveknowledge as well. They carry
knowledge of their own livedexperience. So, you wanna make
sure that both parties have anequally good conversation or
commentate or something that orinterject on something that pops
in their brain or like in theirmind.
Say if someone talks about likewith ableism, systemic ableism,
and then I would chime in to saylike, I remember learning this
(26:51):
in one of my DSC courses or myeducational support courses, but
I wanna make sure I wanna givethe guest speaker the spotlight,
and so I would just like listento their stories because the
best thing about having a guestspeaker on my podcast is it's
not only beneficial for theguest speaker but for the
listener but also for myself.It's a very educational
(27:12):
platform. So we're talking abouthow knowledge is the stow is the
stowed, how we give each otherpower to talk and not letting of
not letting other peopleinterrupt one another or taking
that conversation and making itall about them. So, you want to
make sure that they have thechance and the opportunity to
(27:33):
give them time to talk aboutwhat they want to say or how
they feel about this certaintopic.
Paul Cruz (27:41):
You don't just talk about change, you create it
through art and writing. Whatcan your podcast and disability
on the street blog do fordisability culture that
traditional media often can't?
Andrew Letchuk (27:56):
Well, yeah, Christina told me on my podcast
a while ago that with mypodcast, as I mentioned, to make
media production be knownbecause not a lot of disabled
folks who can access like apodcast, mainstream podcast or a
podcast that doesn't talk aboutdisabilities. So there are a few
(28:18):
disability podcasts on Spotifyand Apple podcasts, but I really
feel that with media productionand disability is crucial, is
essential. So especially withthe Our Voices podcast, I want
to make sure that that a podcastcentralizes disabled and
neurodivergent voices. So likefrom intersectional identities,
talk about identity politics,talk about things that actually
(28:38):
that they relate to, andespecially also with my blog
posts, Disability on the Street.I've been taking a break from it
for a while, but I really wantedto talk about how disability is
situated in Canadian, US andother international politics.
What I've been recently did wastalking about the controversial
(28:58):
big beautiful bill that happenedin The United States by the
Trump administration. So, I wantto talk about how this bill
would cost millions of disabledAmericans to be off Medicare or
Medicaid and also for veteransas well. So I really want my
blog post and my podcast toreach out to not only Canadians,
(29:18):
but those across the country,like in The United States, or
like if it's from England orScotland or from other countries
in Europe. So it's important tohave disability centralizing
disability media production inpolitics and society and
culture. But I want to I wantpeople to feel, especially with
disabled people, to feel thatthey're not alone, like they're
(29:40):
not ostracized in this ableistworld, especially we're living
in a new world order of the riseof the far right movement.
So, how can we centralizedisability into with media? So
we have podcasts. There'sanother podcast I want to share
is called the Crip Times, whichmy friend Christina and Kayla
(30:01):
and Yousef made during theCOVID-nineteen pandemic. So
basically the conception oftheir podcast is about how do
disabled people spend their timeor how they produce their work
in pandemic times. So, the firsttwo seasons are out, but it's
also given a grant fund by theOntario Arts Council.
So, they stopped doing thepodcast production like over two
(30:23):
years ago for a couple yearsnow. So like with examples of
media production is very crucialto the work we do as disabled
activists and those who work inacademics.
Gino Akbari (30:38):
Let's turn to classrooms and campuses, Andrew,
the places many listeners workand study. If a principal or
dean is listening right now,what one policy and one practice
they could change this semesterto improve access?
Andrew Letchuk (30:53):
This is a really good one. So I really want for
them to know that it's importantto prioritize diversity, equity,
inclusion, yet because DEI isbasically the root of inclusion
in campuses and in classrooms. Ireally want to advise like a
dean or someone who works at thecampus that to prioritize
accessibility, for example. Youalso want to consider about
(31:18):
services for indigenous people,for example, or if the or people
who have different religiousbeliefs. So you want to make it
inclusive.
You don't want to include don'twant to have barriers in these
services. If someone wants topractice their religious beliefs
or or those who have experiencedableism or racist oppressive
(31:40):
attitudes on campus orsomething, or if it's whether
it's intentional orunintentional. So I would advise
them to really if there if evenif there are issues in the
system, to make sure to rectifythose issues so that it wouldn't
happen again. I also wouldconsult with students or like
(32:02):
kind of like have like an eventor like a talk about how they
feel or like basically feedbackfor the campus like Sheridan
College, for example. I knowToronto Metropolitan University
is a very diversified postinstitution, but there are some
there are times where postsecondary institutions can have
issues.
So, it's like with racism andespecially there's with protests
(32:25):
as well, like so like people whohave like a right to protest or
if they want to feel included inthese conversations. But when in
terms of accessibility, makingsure that the services are
accessible, not only physically,but also mentally and
emotionally. For instance, theassessment center at Sheridan
College has moved down to thebasement level, unfortunately.
(32:47):
But my issue with it is that ifthe elevator is out of service,
where would that wheelchair userwould go? How would they get to
the assessment center?
If there's only one elevator andthere's like two or three
staircases, like, how would howwould we get to the center? Like
how to do our writer exams? Butit's also considering the
person's access needs aboutextra time on exams or quizzes
(33:11):
and do extensions onassignments. So there are
unfortunately, there's stillphysical barriers and
attitudinal barriers. So a lotof the again, coming from
ignorance of the lack ofeducation of people's
understanding of disability,diversity, equity and inclusion.
And I want to clarify thatpeople who keep throwing the
(33:31):
word woke around on socialmedia, work woke is not a bad
thing. It means that youactually empathize with people's
human rights, equality. I just Ifind that insulting that people
would make fun of the word wokebecause the fact is there's
injustices that is happening oncampus. So how would we address
this? So like this intervention,have a dean set up an event or
(33:53):
bring guest speakers to talkabout how they feel about DEI
and accessibility.
So especially important to haveland acknowledgements as well to
make it inclusive. Like on thetraditional lands of the
Mississauga, the Credit FirstNation, talk about the dish with
one spoon. So I really want orrecommend that to be championed
(34:15):
in post secondary.
Gino Akbari (34:17):
I think that the word woke has been politicized,
of course, and made intosomething the other side or
whatever that side is, to beused as this bad thing. So, I
think resurrecting the word inmy experience, is probably not
the best thing. We need to comeup with something different. So
EDI now in most universities hasbeen changed into ACB, right?
(34:42):
It's like access, community, andbelonging.
Getting away from that EDIthing. So now people are
receiving it a little bit moreuntil they turn that into
something negative as well. Whatare your thoughts on what I just
said?
Andrew Letchuk (34:59):
Well, feel that it's important that
unfortunately, like even ifpeople were using throwing the
word woke around, it's just it'swe have to work around that as
well. Like try not to let peopleis mostly mostly with like with
right wing wing trolls that Ithat I came across on social
media. So I try not to let thatget to me because knowing that
(35:21):
we could also pop possibly useanother word to describe
diversity, equity, andinclusion. But I really feel
that it's just if we feed intothat that, like, say like a
troll on threads or like withInstagram because a lot of
times, like, I've been reading,like, going off topic talk about
like how there's like Marvelupdates and people say, this is
(35:43):
so woke. This this movie isgonna do bad because of woke and
you.
But I I just I'm just reallydon't understand why they are so
against about having inclusionand diversity, especially when
we're talking about disability.Like, it's not bad to it's not
wrong to have empathy forpeople's human rights. Like,
I've always believed in women'srights, the women's right to
(36:05):
vote, for example. It's justunfortunate that people have
politicized the word, especiallyfrom the far right and make it
into like a bad thing. It's justunfortunate that they, it's
gotten, it's still happening onsocial media, but we try not to
bait ourselves into the trollingcommunity because it becomes
toxic.
Gino Akbari (36:24):
Absolutely. Thank you.
Paul Cruz (36:28):
Doing this work sustainably matters. Advocacy
can be exhausting. Whatboundaries or routines help you
lead sustainably without burningout?
Andrew Letchuk (36:39):
This is a really good question as well. So I
think I've been talking aboutthis with my friends. I do get
like a burnout. So becausesetting boundaries and limits is
most important to me. So I'vebeen taught that it's always
okay to have self care.
There's a big difference betweenself care and selfishness. So,
I've always put people's needsfirst before me. So, I'm
(37:02):
thinking like, do you need abreak? Or do you like, and I
don't always expect people totext every day or get a
response, but I feel like withadvocacy work, yes, Paul, it
could be exhausting, but if weput our own limits, our own
boundaries, like recharge ourenergy, then we can come back to
what we were just talking about,like in a group, for example. So
(37:24):
I feel like and I've I've dealtlike a bit of this experience
with a couple of toxic exfriends that I used to know.
I've had experience where I feltlike I was forced to communicate
on their own terms, like in agroup, my ex, I don't want to go
into that, but I've beenexperiencing how being like
(37:45):
these kind of people about howthey have so much expectations
about me, like how I felt that Ihave to please them, like have
to do what they say, but I get aburnout like I don't like
talking twenty four hours a day.Having autism like I just this
is my way to explain why I don'talways talk or text every day. I
like to talk two or three timesa week, but not twenty four
(38:07):
hours, like per day. So, butit's also okay to just recharge
yourself, like to recharge yourenergy. It's just that when it
comes to certain people who justwant your time, especially like
with toxic people, it couldreally drain your energy out.
And this is just how I reallyfeel about it. But when it comes
to like advocacy, like, I'malways really excited to talk,
(38:28):
like if they have like aquestion or have any advice, or
if they want to vent or ventabout something that they are
overwhelmed about or reallyangry about, we get cut straight
to the chase. But when it comesto like social time, it could be
very exhausting, but luckily inmy community, we always respect
people's boundaries, their time.Like I've always respected my
(38:51):
friends at Tangled for having wedo chat, but we also give each
other space to like eitherfinish work or just wanted to
have a rest in the office space.Well, Tangled's office space has
been very accessible, has beenvery relaxing, but like
generally, like it's okay tohave a burn a burnout.
It's natural in our humanevolution, but I really feel
(39:13):
that putting our own boundariesas self care is important
because we don't want to loseour energy during the day if
we're doing something productiveor something that we focus on
one thing and then we get aburnout at the end of the day.
But I think that self care isnot being selfish. It's just you
want to take good care ofyourself.
Gino Akbari (39:38):
So Andrew, let's land with something listeners
can carry into their week. Iflisteners do one concrete thing
after this episode to practicedisability justice in daily
life, what should it be andwhere can they learn more about
your work?
Andrew Letchuk (39:54):
So I'm gonna start with the first answer. So
what the concrete thing that Iwant listeners to take away is
that lived experience isimportant when we're engaging in
politics, especially indisability justice. You want to
make sure that you want to givethe spotlight to people who have
those experiences from thosemarginalized communities. You
(40:15):
always want to make you alwayswant to listen to how they feel
about like, it's basically, it'sa very rewarding experience when
they're talking about ableism,oppression, samism, classism
because they hold thoseexperiences based on their
involvement in social movements,grassroot movements, collective
access. It's like with theToronto Disability Pride March,
(40:36):
for example.
So if the listener is interestedin disability justice, I would
advise following and honoringthe legacies of disabled leaders
in our time. So you have likeJudy Heumann, for example,
especially in the Section fivezero four Rehabilitation
Movement for the DisabilityRights. But you also have Mia
Mingus, Leah Lakshmi. Butthere's so many political
(40:58):
leaders that people can followon social media, TikTok and
Facebook. I also recommendattending like a press
conference or a symposium thatrelates to disability justice
rights, intersectionality, orlike anti ableism, anti
capitalist movements, or likewith talking about anti
capitalist talks or evendisability arts talks.
(41:21):
Disability arts culture is areally good example if people
want to understand howdisability is represented
through the arts. So instead ofwith media representation, visit
Tangle Art, which is located at401 Richmond At Spadina in
Richmond. So it's Canada's firstart, Canada's first accessible
art gallery, where they displayexhibits of disabled,
(41:44):
irrigender, indigenous, deafartists. So I feel like it's a
really great experience to learnfrom these artists who have
lived experience with the world.And then the social media that
with TikTok, they have plenty ofreally plenty of great
disability content creators andInstagram.
(42:04):
I've followed a few people onInstagram. I can't I think one
of them is called Pixie by Shar,for example. She was talking
about the different types ofableism. So, like, these
contents can be very educationalfor people or for listeners who
want to learn more about what Isaid on this podcast.
Paul Cruz (42:25):
Andrew, thank you for sharing your time and
perspective. We'll linkConversations of Disability,
Disability on the Street, andthe others in the show notes.
Andrew Letchuk (42:36):
Thank you so much guys for inviting me on the
show. Really meant a lot.
Paul Cruz (42:40):
You're welcome. To our listeners, please share this
episode if this conversationresonated with you. Don't forget
to subscribe to theneurodiversity voices podcast
wherever you get your podcastsand even rate us on your
(43:01):
favorite podcast app.
Gino Akbari (43:02):
If you have any questions, ideas or stories
you'd like to share, pleasewrite us or sign up to be a
guest on our website atwww.neurodiversityvoices.com.
We'd love to hear from you.
Paul Cruz (43:17):
Till next time, take care, stay curious, and keep
celebrating the beauty ofdiverse minds.
Gino Akbari (43:24):
Thanks for listening to the Neurodiversity
Voices podcast.
This is misconception about us autistic
(00:02):
people that we don't care aboutpeople, but the fact is, we do
care about people and Iunderstand that I can't speak on
behalf of all autistic peoplebecause of different lived
experiences, but we do careabout people it's just we show
it differently. We express ourfeelings differently. So, we may
sometimes have struggle with eyecontact with other people or we
(00:23):
tend to stammer or we talk toofast, but that's what makes us
unique makes us what us human.
Paul Cruz (00:35):
Hello and welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices
podcast. I'm your host, PaulCruz, and we're thrilled to have
you join us on this journey ofexploration, advocacy, and
celebration of neurodiversity.
Gino Akbari (00:48):
And I'm Gino Akbari. Together, we'll have
meaningful conversations, shareinspiring stories, and challenge
misconceptions aboutneurodiversity. We're so excited
(01:14):
to have you as we celebrate thebeauty of diverse minds and work
toward a more inclusive future.
Paul Cruz (01:20):
So sit back, relax, and let's get started. Welcome
to the Neurodiversity Voicespodcast. Today, we're joined by
Andrew Leczuk, an autistic,disabled, and neurodivergent
advocate with a deep passion fordisability and social justice.
Andrew is a proud graduate ofthe Educational Support and
(01:43):
Disability Studies program atSheridan and Toronto
Metropolitan University. Hehosts the podcast Conversations
of Disability and Rights forDisability on the Street.
When he's off the mic, you'lllikely find him walking around
Toronto browsing vintage shops,exploring coffee spots, and
(02:07):
listening to music. Andrew,welcome. Thanks for being here.
Andrew Letchuk (02:10):
It's my pleasure. I'm very honored.
Paul Cruz (02:16):
Let's start with your story. Which moments in your
schooling and early life mostshaped how you understand
disability and access today?
Andrew Letchuk (02:26):
So this is a really great question. So with
my personal narrative, it'sreally important to talk about.
Starting with how I was testedfor autism at my first school,
Riverside Public School. I wasstruggling in mainstream
education from grades one, two,and to the first month of grade
three. So the principal atRiverside, Bruce Mercer, who
(02:49):
just now retired, he recommendedme to be tested by a
psychologist and they found outthat I was tested for autism.
My parents were advised totransfer me to another school
that had an ASD program and Iactually live not too far from
Riverside, which is like ten orfifteen minutes from here, so
walking by that school has beenvery personal, brings back like
(03:12):
a lot of memories but then Ionce I started Britannia on my
first day 10/12/2004, accordingto my old school agenda, I was
placed into a smaller class withother autistic children with a
few ERFs or teaching assistantsAnd so I felt that I felt more
included into the school system.Special education is something
(03:37):
that has been a part of my lifethroughout Britannia Public
School, Camilla Road SeniorPublic School, and up to West
Credit Secondary School. Specialeducation helped me learn how to
grow as a person, learn how tobecome successful in my
education. There's the phrasefalling through the cracks has
often been brought up with mymom, because I've been we've all
(03:59):
been talking about howremembering the times of what
when I did this, what happenedto me back then, but with middle
school, especially in gradeeight, I had a school
psychologist named Doctor.Roberts.
So he took me into like anotherroom from my ASD class and
basically he gave me a series oftestings based on my
linguistics, mathematics skills,reasoning and critical thinking,
(04:22):
so because it was also in theworks of developing my
individual education plan orIEP, so that carried all the way
into high school. So I was alsoplaced in a resource room called
Homebase, so it's basicallydesigned for in my time, it's
for vocational one and twostudents. So I was a vocational
two student in my program. So Iit's kind of also helps me get
(04:48):
free access to like foremotional support from my ERFs
or from Kathy Hill, who is nowretired from West Credit. And
also coming up to accommodationsand accessibility, post
secondary education has beenvery important chapter in my
life, especially with when itcomes to having access needs met
and having accommodations likehaving the right to have so
(05:11):
under the Human Rights Code ofOntario.
But like with accessibility,special education, diagnosis has
been what really shaped my livedexperience of being disabled.
Because I mentioned the worddisabled for two reasons from
one, the social model lens ofdisability, because disability
has always been a very sociallyconstructed and political
(05:32):
phenomenon. So I am disabled bythe attitudes in society,
especially if it's from in theworkplace setting, or like in
education or like withgovernment related policies. But
I'm also disabled by the medicalmodel of how autism has been
pathologized by medical doctorsand families and occupational
(05:54):
therapists, etc. So I want toclarify on that why I use the
word disabled.
Not everyone prefers to haveidentity first language, some
choose to have person firstlanguage, so it's like a matter
of personal preference. So likethe social constructions of
accessibility, special educationhas helped me get to where I am
(06:14):
today as a person.
Gino Akbari (06:19):
And Andrew, you went from navigating the systems
to helping change them. How didthose experiences move you into
advocacy as a writer andorganizer and podcaster?
Andrew Letchuk (06:31):
I really feel that with navigating through
those systems, it really helpsme wanting to make social change
for my community. So I justwanna share that I'm actually
starting my leadership programcalled FUTURES. So I just had my
first meeting last night and wewere talking about like the
overview program of what toexpect. So we'll be having like
(06:52):
guest speakers, workshops. We'realso gonna be having like this
activation project, so it's likea community project where we
work independently and alsoworking with other people.
So, I really feel that thisprogram for instance would
really help me learn how toamplify my voice and to promote
awarenesses in the community, solike bestow power to other
(07:14):
people who have been silenced orbeen oppressed or marginalized.
I want to be clear that I can'tspeak on behalf of the entire
community because disabledpeople's experiences are
nuanced. So we're talking aboutgender, sexuality, race,
religion, class, and I identifyas a white settler as autistic,
disabled, and also asexual andaromantic. So our experiences
(07:35):
are very nuanced. So I want tonavigate those systems to base
from my experience to makepolitical change, to make other
people's voices feel heard.
And so that's why I use like mypodcast as well. My friend
Christina had told me that I'vebeen centralizing disabled
voices in my podcast as like acompliment. And that's what was
(07:56):
my intention with Our Voices. Wewant to ask the listener, what
does an accessible world looklike? Imagining them, what would
this world be if it was ableistfree and inclusive and
diversified?
So going back to the Futuresprogram, so I really am excited
to be learning how to become aninnovative leader, learning how
(08:18):
to build lifelong connections,and as what Christina and I were
talking about, relationality, sohow we relate to others. So I
really want to build like a webof community.
Paul Cruz (08:32):
Many people know disability rights but you also
champion a broader frame. Forfolks who know disability rights
but not disability justice, howdo you explain the difference in
everyday terms?
Andrew Letchuk (08:46):
Thank you for that question. So to start off,
disability justice was born outof a movement that was designed
from white heterosexualprivileged disabled men, because
like especially with the ADA Actin 1990 of The United States and
with AODA in Ontario. Sodisability rights was more of
(09:07):
catering to privileged disabledpeople, so especially that it
only caters to that kind ofgroup, but disability justice is
born out of social movements,basically grassroot movements
that is rooted in feminism,queer, crip feminism, black
indigenous people of color. Sobasically, disability justice
was like a political platformfor trans two spirit LGBTQ folks
(09:32):
to make their voices heardknowing that disability justice
doesn't speak for them. So, inwhat ways can we make a movement
that responds to our experienceswith oppression and when it
comes to ableism, madness, orsanism, which is like a type of
prejudice against people withpsychiatric disabilities.
So disability justice is morecatering to people of color who
(09:56):
have been oppressed or beenexperienced systemic bias or
gender bias. So it's I just Idon't want people to be confused
with disability rights andjustice, but I presume that it
goes can go hand in hand, but wewant to make sure that
disability justice is theforefront. Like disability is
doesn't is should not be onlyviewed as to people who are
(10:20):
heterosexual or who are white orcisgender. We also want to
consider nuanced sexualities,gender, class. So it's a very
diversified concept and acommunity.
Gino Akbari (10:36):
So let's put those ideas into practice. Which
disability justice principlesfeel most alive in your work
right now? And how do they showup day to day?
Andrew Letchuk (10:47):
I could bring up one of the principles from Sins
Invalid, which isintersectionality. So the reason
for that is that I also haveautistic friends who are people
of color, especially women ofcolor as well from middle school
and public school and in highschool as well. So
intersectionality is I've beenmostly following disability
(11:07):
figures who are who identify asa person of color like Mia
Mingus, for example. I reallylike her work because she talks
about how accessibility is notjust about providing wheelchair
ramps or doors, but it's alsolike a support network, like an
open access support, likeworking interdependently. So
like what that person needs,what can I do for you, or how
(11:30):
can we work together to makethose needs met?
So intersectionality isimportant into my work because
you have people in my communitywho are living in poverty, for
example, or experiencing trauma,or colonial policies in
government in provincial andfederal policies. You also want
to talk about how disabledpeople of color are experiencing
(11:52):
homelessness. So, important toaddress those issues with people
and also kind of giving themthat voice to make other
people's voices feel heard. So,you have transgender folks or
those who are queer or nonbinary, and I know that what's
happening not only in Canada,but The United States, knowing
that the Trump administration istrying to destroy or trying to
(12:14):
roll back on the rights movementor the disability justice,
because like now that withqueer, trans and disabled BIPOC
folks are being targeted,especially like with racism and
Christian nationalist ideologyand ableism, ableism is still
around. You have internalizedableism, you have benevolent
(12:35):
ableism, systemic ableism.
So I really feel thatintersectionality is one of many
principles that must bechampioned in the work we do as
activists.
Paul Cruz (12:47):
What patterns or tropes in autistic
representation do you see most?
Andrew Letchuk (12:54):
I love this question. So stereotypes have
been a very interesting subject,especially not only in
educational settings but mediarepresentation for instance. So,
have like The Good Doctor orRain Man or there's another
movie called Sing no, I can'tremember the name of the title
(13:15):
but it was directed by Sia. Sobasically, the film has an
autistic girl as the mainprotagonist. Unfortunately, the
actor in real life is notautistic.
So, cripping there's this ideacalled the cripping up, which is
a concept in which able or nondisabled actors play disabled
(13:36):
characters. So, it's basicallyit's like a Halloween costume
that you wear and then you putit on a coat rack. And so, was
actually for instance, I was inToronto yesterday and there was
a costume at Spirit Halloweenthat says blind referee and I'm
thinking, I saw this last yearand knowing that disabled
costumes are disability is not aHalloween costume, the same
(13:56):
thing with autism. If someone ispretending to be autistic, it's
not only insulting, but you'redisrespecting someone who
actually has autism, whether itcould be non speaking or those
who could be stimming or thosewho have like Asperger's
syndrome. So I feel that that'sanother one prime example.
So another one is called theAutistic Savant trope, so
(14:17):
basically portraying autisticpeople as unempathetic or who is
incapable of struggling to careabout other people, so, and this
is misconception about usautistic people that we don't
care about people but the factis, we do care about people and
I understand that I can't speakon behalf of all autistic people
(14:37):
because of different livedexperiences but we do care about
people, it's just we show itdifferently. We express our
feelings differently. So, we maysometimes have struggle with eye
contact with other people or wetend to stammer or we talk too
fast, but that's what makes usunique, makes us what us human.
So like with mediarepresentation has been this
(14:59):
site of stereotypes, and Ipresume that Hollywood is still
trying to include more and hiredisabled actors. Historically,
people have been misunderstoodas people who we people assume
that we act weird or we looklike like as freakish, like
we're as freaks or as spaz, butthose misconceptions are not
(15:22):
true.
It's most of them are quiteableist, especially especially
parents who have an autisticchild, they don't even some of
them may not know how to respondor to how to raise their
autistic children. So sometimesthey turn to TV shows or if
someone who is interested aboutautism, if they're not in a
resource room or like a studentcould be outside of a home based
(15:46):
program who is neurotypical, andthey would just make us laugh at
us or give us dirty looksknowing that you're not like,
just don't treat us like withrespect. If you follow these
stereotypes, if you watch moviesthat have stereotypes, you're
gonna, would assume that we actlike that in real life, but what
I want to say is that listeningto disabled people, we are the
(16:08):
experts of lived experience.Autistic people are experts, you
could ask questions just knowingabout like what they know about
autism and how they relate tothe world, how they connect with
the world having an autisticbrain, or you could ask someone
about who has ADHD or having alearning disability or having
epilepsy. So I emphasize thisclearly in the work that lived
(16:32):
experience by disabled people isimportant.
Expert knowledge is important.And there's a difference between
expert knowledge andexperiential knowledge where you
have experiential knowledgecoming, experiential knowledge
comes from doctors orprofessionals who believe that
they are the experts of autism,like based on research, where
(16:52):
you have expertise knowledgefrom disabled people, we have
the lived experience, we haveproper knowledge, whereas the
medical profession just know oftheir knowledge based on bias
through research andpresumptions. So, with media
representation, medicalprofessional worlds, it's
important for people to knowthat you shouldn't always rely
(17:15):
on media on movies andtelevision to understand
disability. While it's great toinclude that in like an episode
or a movie plot, but to rememberthat disabled people are the
experts of lived experience, soalways turn to them. I feel that
first of all, it's important tolearn how to be professional
(17:39):
about it.
Had an experience in theemployment center at South
Common Mall in Mississauga lastspring. It was like an intake
meeting where this woman who Ishall keep it privately, she
asked me if I had like adisorder or a disability and I
felt comfortable of disclosingit because it's my choice to
(18:01):
share my disability. So I said,well, I was diagnosed with
autism. And then from the lookof it, she said, from how I see
it, you don't seem to haveautism. And then she lectured me
about how everything, noteverything in life is permanent.
So I sat in my chair and Idon't, I didn't want to lash
out, but I felt, I felt antsyknowing that I wanted to say
(18:23):
something instead of being madabout it, I would say I was
technically diagnosed twentyyears ago, which was last 2004,
which was twenty one years agothis year. So when people say
you don't look autistic or youdon't look sick or you're,
you're faking your illness, oneof the one of the things that I
(18:43):
can say that it could lead tointernalized ableism. If someone
tells you that and then it willmake you start to doubt yourself
if you're really disabled. So, Itry not to let that get to me
because I know that for whatlike one, she doesn't know or
doesn't have the right todictate how autistic people look
(19:05):
like. You can't see all thetraits, not all autistic people
have the same traits and I wastalking about this with my
friend Theo from my meeting lastnight about how people say you
don't look autistic enough to beautistic.
So, and we would say, so what doyou, how do you define autistic
people? So, I would reallyrecommend not to be defensive
(19:27):
about it because you wannareally wanna keep it
professional and I know that itrarely happens a lot to me, but
I know a lot of people who havechronic pain or people who have
like heart conditions or likewith medical disabilities,
people often take one good lookat you and just assume that you
don't look disabled, especiallyin a prime example where you're
(19:49):
parking in an accessible lot,and then you have your parking
license, accessibility license.Let's say you're not allowed to
park there, it's illegal. Youdon't look disabled. So what
does autism or being disabledlook like to you?
So a lot of it's a matter ofignorance. So if you take one
(20:10):
good look at someone, you'rejust assuming that invisible
disabilities are no such thingto them. But I've really been
wanting to talk about this andeducate people about invisible
disabilities. Like people oftenmistaken disability as a
physical entity, like thevisibility, but there are people
(20:30):
who've been posting on LinkedInsaying like not all disabilities
are visible. Some look likethis.
You have like a just like ahuman person looking fine and
all that, but you can't see whatthey're going through. And
especially with autistic people,we tell people that well, you
don't know what it's like to beautistic if you're not in our
shoes. You don't know what it'slike having difficulty learning
(20:51):
to start a conversation withsomeone or just wanting to learn
how to start a conversation.Like there are times where like,
I sometimes have a bit ofdifficulty trying to start a
conversation where I just lookat someone and waiting for and
hoping for someone to come andchat with me. But the fact is,
it's not it's not all about howto get it's not about to get you
(21:14):
have to put the work into it.
So and that's how I like tolearn it through icebreaker
activities, which I've done lastnight. So, it was like my way to
it was like the way to help melearn to start a conversation
with another disabled person.Like, there are there is a
tendency for me to get veryanxious or just get very shy,
(21:34):
like I just don't know how totalk to that person or someone,
but then really, reeling back toabout that filling into the
shoes, a non disabled persondoesn't know what it feels like
to be disabled or feel like anoutsider to the ableist world or
into this near typical group ofpeople, especially at West
Credit, especially the schoolthat I went to. So I have always
(21:57):
tried attempted to fit in intothe in crowd, so like with
people who want to be popular,but I felt like I wasn't being
myself, was wearing likeclothing that I would not wear
today, and I ultimately regrettrying to fit in with those kind
of people because that's justnot me. So when I found my
disability community, it reallyfelt like home, knowing that
(22:18):
with disability politics andissues that that speaks the same
language and the experiencesthat I've been dealing with my
life, and knowing that it's justlearning to be about yourself,
just being yourself.
So I really feel that it'simportant for people to not
assume or to not make themistake of judging us just
because of our physicalappearance. We may you may see
(22:41):
us as if we're normal, butespecially for neurodivergent
folks, we are often stigmatized.We are often judged by people,
especially like with employersor in the educational or
institutional care, people oftentake one good look at us and
say, you look fine, you looknormal, but I just want to
clarify that we are invisiblydisabled, it's just you can't
(23:04):
see our traits.
Paul Cruz (23:08):
Let's shift from narrative to the nuts and bolts
of Axis. If you could redesignone common event from invites to
follow ups, how would you bakein Axis from the start?
Andrew Letchuk (23:20):
That's a really good question. So what the first
thing that I would make sure isto be negotiable and be flexible
on a person's availability. Sofor instance, with my podcast, I
always want to do follow upswith a person to see if what
their the best day to talk on mypodcast. I'm the kind of person
(23:41):
who don't put pressure onpeople, like say, for instance,
we're gonna do this day andexpect to follow that day, but
what if someone something cameup in someone's availability or
like a death in the family orlike work related, like last
minute work availability. SoI've I've always been respectful
on that because sometimes ourschedules can be compiled up
(24:02):
with work related or like withlike grading papers, for
example, or working at a job ortaking care of like our own
children or like with a familymember.
So like with invites, I alwayswant to make sure that it's
accessible like through email.So I basically, I try to do my
best clarify on what to expectfor like a podcast interview,
like we're gonna be doing audiorecording, I will also, if
(24:25):
you're interested to send like,I'll send you like a transcript
for instance, if you'reinterested, so I want to be very
clear that the language is clearand concise and not to be like
using jargon language. The samething if I was invited to do
something, I wanna make surethat the instructions and
directions are clear andconcise. And what I mentioned
earlier about negotiation, solike kind of like negotiating a
(24:48):
good time and day to talk. So,and then if someone wants to
reschedule, and I am- then I amall up for it.
Like there's no rush. I have norush or deadline to do this
episode, like running at my owncrip time. So which is kind of
like a concept, whereas adisabled person uses their own
(25:09):
set their own pace and time intheir own space to do like a
project or something.Flexibility and negotiation is
my way of making sure that aperson's availability is
accessible and helps for thatperson to be prepared of how to
respond to the interviewquestions and the answers that I
look for in my podcast.
Gino Akbari (25:32):
Access also shows up in how we share the mic. On
our voices, how do you balancetelling your story with
amplifying others, especiallyguests with different identities
and needs?
Andrew Letchuk (25:45):
Great question. So, I want to start off like, I
want to talk about power based,powered knowledge. So, it's just
like in research where you havethe researcher and the
participant if we're conductinglike a research study on
disability justice, for example.So from all my podcasts, I want
to make sure that the guestspeaker that I choose or chose,
(26:07):
they make sure that theirknowledge is heard or valued
because I have this moral that Idon't want to really speak too
much of my lived experience. Iwant to talk about it, but I
also want to balance it withother people's lived
experiences.
So like kind of like a contrast.So I don't really want to over
dominate like dominate like theconversation. So, it's important
(26:28):
that participants also haveknowledge as well. They carry
knowledge of their own livedexperience. So, you wanna make
sure that both parties have anequally good conversation or
commentate or something that orinterject on something that pops
in their brain or like in theirmind.
Say if someone talks about likewith ableism, systemic ableism,
and then I would chime in to saylike, I remember learning this
(26:51):
in one of my DSC courses or myeducational support courses, but
I wanna make sure I wanna givethe guest speaker the spotlight,
and so I would just like listento their stories because the
best thing about having a guestspeaker on my podcast is it's
not only beneficial for theguest speaker but for the
listener but also for myself.It's a very educational
(27:12):
platform. So we're talking abouthow knowledge is the stow is the
stowed, how we give each otherpower to talk and not letting of
not letting other peopleinterrupt one another or taking
that conversation and making itall about them. So, you want to
make sure that they have thechance and the opportunity to
(27:33):
give them time to talk aboutwhat they want to say or how
they feel about this certaintopic.
Paul Cruz (27:41):
You don't just talk about change, you create it
through art and writing. Whatcan your podcast and disability
on the street blog do fordisability culture that
traditional media often can't?
Andrew Letchuk (27:56):
Well, yeah, Christina told me on my podcast
a while ago that with mypodcast, as I mentioned, to make
media production be knownbecause not a lot of disabled
folks who can access like apodcast, mainstream podcast or a
podcast that doesn't talk aboutdisabilities. So there are a few
(28:18):
disability podcasts on Spotifyand Apple podcasts, but I really
feel that with media productionand disability is crucial, is
essential. So especially withthe Our Voices podcast, I want
to make sure that that a podcastcentralizes disabled and
neurodivergent voices. So likefrom intersectional identities,
talk about identity politics,talk about things that actually
(28:38):
that they relate to, andespecially also with my blog
posts, Disability on the Street.I've been taking a break from it
for a while, but I really wantedto talk about how disability is
situated in Canadian, US andother international politics.
What I've been recently did wastalking about the controversial
(28:58):
big beautiful bill that happenedin The United States by the
Trump administration. So, I wantto talk about how this bill
would cost millions of disabledAmericans to be off Medicare or
Medicaid and also for veteransas well. So I really want my
blog post and my podcast toreach out to not only Canadians,
(29:18):
but those across the country,like in The United States, or
like if it's from England orScotland or from other countries
in Europe. So it's important tohave disability centralizing
disability media production inpolitics and society and
culture. But I want to I wantpeople to feel, especially with
disabled people, to feel thatthey're not alone, like they're
(29:40):
not ostracized in this ableistworld, especially we're living
in a new world order of the riseof the far right movement.
So, how can we centralizedisability into with media? So
we have podcasts. There'sanother podcast I want to share
is called the Crip Times, whichmy friend Christina and Kayla
(30:01):
and Yousef made during theCOVID-nineteen pandemic. So
basically the conception oftheir podcast is about how do
disabled people spend their timeor how they produce their work
in pandemic times. So, the firsttwo seasons are out, but it's
also given a grant fund by theOntario Arts Council.
So, they stopped doing thepodcast production like over two
(30:23):
years ago for a couple yearsnow. So like with examples of
media production is very crucialto the work we do as disabled
activists and those who work inacademics.
Gino Akbari (30:38):
Let's turn to classrooms and campuses, Andrew,
the places many listeners workand study. If a principal or
dean is listening right now,what one policy and one practice
they could change this semesterto improve access?
Andrew Letchuk (30:53):
This is a really good one. So I really want for
them to know that it's importantto prioritize diversity, equity,
inclusion, yet because DEI isbasically the root of inclusion
in campuses and in classrooms. Ireally want to advise like a
dean or someone who works at thecampus that to prioritize
accessibility, for example. Youalso want to consider about
(31:18):
services for indigenous people,for example, or if the or people
who have different religiousbeliefs. So you want to make it
inclusive.
You don't want to include don'twant to have barriers in these
services. If someone wants topractice their religious beliefs
or or those who have experiencedableism or racist oppressive
(31:40):
attitudes on campus orsomething, or if it's whether
it's intentional orunintentional. So I would advise
them to really if there if evenif there are issues in the
system, to make sure to rectifythose issues so that it wouldn't
happen again. I also wouldconsult with students or like
(32:02):
kind of like have like an eventor like a talk about how they
feel or like basically feedbackfor the campus like Sheridan
College, for example. I knowToronto Metropolitan University
is a very diversified postinstitution, but there are some
there are times where postsecondary institutions can have
issues.
So, it's like with racism andespecially there's with protests
(32:25):
as well, like so like people whohave like a right to protest or
if they want to feel included inthese conversations. But when in
terms of accessibility, makingsure that the services are
accessible, not only physically,but also mentally and
emotionally. For instance, theassessment center at Sheridan
College has moved down to thebasement level, unfortunately.
(32:47):
But my issue with it is that ifthe elevator is out of service,
where would that wheelchair userwould go? How would they get to
the assessment center?
If there's only one elevator andthere's like two or three
staircases, like, how would howwould we get to the center? Like
how to do our writer exams? Butit's also considering the
person's access needs aboutextra time on exams or quizzes
(33:11):
and do extensions onassignments. So there are
unfortunately, there's stillphysical barriers and
attitudinal barriers. So a lotof the again, coming from
ignorance of the lack ofeducation of people's
understanding of disability,diversity, equity and inclusion.
And I want to clarify thatpeople who keep throwing the
(33:31):
word woke around on socialmedia, work woke is not a bad
thing. It means that youactually empathize with people's
human rights, equality. I just Ifind that insulting that people
would make fun of the word wokebecause the fact is there's
injustices that is happening oncampus. So how would we address
this? So like this intervention,have a dean set up an event or
(33:53):
bring guest speakers to talkabout how they feel about DEI
and accessibility.
So especially important to haveland acknowledgements as well to
make it inclusive. Like on thetraditional lands of the
Mississauga, the Credit FirstNation, talk about the dish with
one spoon. So I really want orrecommend that to be championed
(34:15):
in post secondary.
Gino Akbari (34:17):
I think that the word woke has been politicized,
of course, and made intosomething the other side or
whatever that side is, to beused as this bad thing. So, I
think resurrecting the word inmy experience, is probably not
the best thing. We need to comeup with something different. So
EDI now in most universities hasbeen changed into ACB, right?
(34:42):
It's like access, community, andbelonging.
Getting away from that EDIthing. So now people are
receiving it a little bit moreuntil they turn that into
something negative as well. Whatare your thoughts on what I just
said?
Andrew Letchuk (34:59):
Well, feel that it's important that
unfortunately, like even ifpeople were using throwing the
word woke around, it's just it'swe have to work around that as
well. Like try not to let peopleis mostly mostly with like with
right wing wing trolls that Ithat I came across on social
media. So I try not to let thatget to me because knowing that
(35:21):
we could also pop possibly useanother word to describe
diversity, equity, andinclusion. But I really feel
that it's just if we feed intothat that, like, say like a
troll on threads or like withInstagram because a lot of
times, like, I've been reading,like, going off topic talk about
like how there's like Marvelupdates and people say, this is
(35:43):
so woke. This this movie isgonna do bad because of woke and
you.
But I I just I'm just reallydon't understand why they are so
against about having inclusionand diversity, especially when
we're talking about disability.Like, it's not bad to it's not
wrong to have empathy forpeople's human rights. Like,
I've always believed in women'srights, the women's right to
(36:05):
vote, for example. It's justunfortunate that people have
politicized the word, especiallyfrom the far right and make it
into like a bad thing. It's justunfortunate that they, it's
gotten, it's still happening onsocial media, but we try not to
bait ourselves into the trollingcommunity because it becomes
toxic.
Gino Akbari (36:24):
Absolutely. Thank you.
Paul Cruz (36:28):
Doing this work sustainably matters. Advocacy
can be exhausting. Whatboundaries or routines help you
lead sustainably without burningout?
Andrew Letchuk (36:39):
This is a really good question as well. So I
think I've been talking aboutthis with my friends. I do get
like a burnout. So becausesetting boundaries and limits is
most important to me. So I'vebeen taught that it's always
okay to have self care.
There's a big difference betweenself care and selfishness. So,
I've always put people's needsfirst before me. So, I'm
(37:02):
thinking like, do you need abreak? Or do you like, and I
don't always expect people totext every day or get a
response, but I feel like withadvocacy work, yes, Paul, it
could be exhausting, but if weput our own limits, our own
boundaries, like recharge ourenergy, then we can come back to
what we were just talking about,like in a group, for example. So
(37:24):
I feel like and I've I've dealtlike a bit of this experience
with a couple of toxic exfriends that I used to know.
I've had experience where I feltlike I was forced to communicate
on their own terms, like in agroup, my ex, I don't want to go
into that, but I've beenexperiencing how being like
(37:45):
these kind of people about howthey have so much expectations
about me, like how I felt that Ihave to please them, like have
to do what they say, but I get aburnout like I don't like
talking twenty four hours a day.Having autism like I just this
is my way to explain why I don'talways talk or text every day. I
like to talk two or three timesa week, but not twenty four
(38:07):
hours, like per day. So, butit's also okay to just recharge
yourself, like to recharge yourenergy. It's just that when it
comes to certain people who justwant your time, especially like
with toxic people, it couldreally drain your energy out.
And this is just how I reallyfeel about it. But when it comes
to like advocacy, like, I'malways really excited to talk,
(38:28):
like if they have like aquestion or have any advice, or
if they want to vent or ventabout something that they are
overwhelmed about or reallyangry about, we get cut straight
to the chase. But when it comesto like social time, it could be
very exhausting, but luckily inmy community, we always respect
people's boundaries, their time.Like I've always respected my
(38:51):
friends at Tangled for having wedo chat, but we also give each
other space to like eitherfinish work or just wanted to
have a rest in the office space.Well, Tangled's office space has
been very accessible, has beenvery relaxing, but like
generally, like it's okay tohave a burn a burnout.
It's natural in our humanevolution, but I really feel
(39:13):
that putting our own boundariesas self care is important
because we don't want to loseour energy during the day if
we're doing something productiveor something that we focus on
one thing and then we get aburnout at the end of the day.
But I think that self care isnot being selfish. It's just you
want to take good care ofyourself.
Gino Akbari (39:38):
So Andrew, let's land with something listeners
can carry into their week. Iflisteners do one concrete thing
after this episode to practicedisability justice in daily
life, what should it be andwhere can they learn more about
your work?
Andrew Letchuk (39:54):
So I'm gonna start with the first answer. So
what the concrete thing that Iwant listeners to take away is
that lived experience isimportant when we're engaging in
politics, especially indisability justice. You want to
make sure that you want to givethe spotlight to people who have
those experiences from thosemarginalized communities. You
(40:15):
always want to make you alwayswant to listen to how they feel
about like, it's basically, it'sa very rewarding experience when
they're talking about ableism,oppression, samism, classism
because they hold thoseexperiences based on their
involvement in social movements,grassroot movements, collective
access. It's like with theToronto Disability Pride March,
(40:36):
for example.
So if the listener is interestedin disability justice, I would
advise following and honoringthe legacies of disabled leaders
in our time. So you have likeJudy Heumann, for example,
especially in the Section fivezero four Rehabilitation
Movement for the DisabilityRights. But you also have Mia
Mingus, Leah Lakshmi. Butthere's so many political
(40:58):
leaders that people can followon social media, TikTok and
Facebook. I also recommendattending like a press
conference or a symposium thatrelates to disability justice
rights, intersectionality, orlike anti ableism, anti
capitalist movements, or likewith talking about anti
capitalist talks or evendisability arts talks.
(41:21):
Disability arts culture is areally good example if people
want to understand howdisability is represented
through the arts. So instead ofwith media representation, visit
Tangle Art, which is located at401 Richmond At Spadina in
Richmond. So it's Canada's firstart, Canada's first accessible
art gallery, where they displayexhibits of disabled,
(41:44):
irrigender, indigenous, deafartists. So I feel like it's a
really great experience to learnfrom these artists who have
lived experience with the world.And then the social media that
with TikTok, they have plenty ofreally plenty of great
disability content creators andInstagram.
(42:04):
I've followed a few people onInstagram. I can't I think one
of them is called Pixie by Shar,for example. She was talking
about the different types ofableism. So, like, these
contents can be very educationalfor people or for listeners who
want to learn more about what Isaid on this podcast.
Paul Cruz (42:25):
Andrew, thank you for sharing your time and
perspective. We'll linkConversations of Disability,
Disability on the Street, andthe others in the show notes.
Andrew Letchuk (42:36):
Thank you so much guys for inviting me on the
show. Really meant a lot.
Paul Cruz (42:40):
You're welcome. To our listeners, please share this
episode if this conversationresonated with you. Don't forget
to subscribe to theneurodiversity voices podcast
wherever you get your podcastsand even rate us on your
(43:01):
favorite podcast app.
Gino Akbari (43:02):
If you have any questions, ideas or stories
you'd like to share, pleasewrite us or sign up to be a
guest on our website atwww.neurodiversityvoices.com.
We'd love to hear from you.
Paul Cruz (43:17):
Till next time, take care, stay curious, and keep
celebrating the beauty ofdiverse minds.
Gino Akbari (43:24):
Thanks for listening to the Neurodiversity
Voices podcast.
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