August 11, 2025 • 52 mins
Student leaders from the Neurodiversity Students Association (NDSA) at Toronto Metropolitan University — Jenna Ignaczak, Malka Finkelstein, and Maddie Sardone — discuss what it truly means to be a neurodivergent student in post-secondary education today.
Together, they share stories of inclusion, moments of isolation, experiences with ableism, and insights into how universities can better support neurodivergent students. The conversation dives into policy challenges, mental health, masking, equity vs. equality, and the importance of community.
Whether you’re a student, educator, ally, or policymaker, this episode will leave you informed, inspired, and motivated to advocate for a more inclusive future in higher education.
Quotes to Remember:
“It’s not about equality, it’s about equity.” – Malka
“We don’t know what we don’t know. Ask students what they need.” – Jenna
“It’s easier to get rid of us than support us. That’s the problem.” – Maddie
Neurodiversity Students Association, Toronto Metropolitan University
Instagram: @tmu_ndsa
Telos: A Neurodiversity Conversation Podcast: https://anchor.fm/s/fc565318/podcast/rss
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- Learn more about the Neurodiversity Voices Podcast: www.neurodiversityvoices.com
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Neurodiversity in Education
04:21 Personal Definitions of Neurodiversity
06:00 Experiences of Support and Understanding
08:24 Challenges Faced by Neurodivergent Students
10:30 Evaluating University Support Systems
13:50 Imagining an Inclusive Future
16:57 Creating a Neurodivergent-Friendly Campus
20:48 Being an Ally to Neurodivergent Peers
23:40 The Role of Educators in Inclusivity
24:10 Creating Inclusive Spaces in Education
28:38 Navigating Accommodations and Disclosure
32:18 Challenges of Current Assessment Methods
37:20 The Pressure to Mask Neurodivergence
41:47 Gen Z's Impact on Neurodiversity
42:38 Hope for Future Education and Accessibility
45:12 Messages for University Administrators
Disclaimer:
The content provided in this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paul Cruz (00:02):
Hello and welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices
podcast. I'm your host, PaulCruz, and I'm thrilled to have
you join us on this journey ofexploration, advocacy, and
celebration of neurodiversity.Together, we'll have meaningful
conversations, share inspiringstories, and challenge
misconceptions aboutneurodiversity. This podcast is
(00:26):
for everyone, whether you'reneurodivergent yourself, an
educator, parent, or justsomeone curious to learn more.
Our goal is to amplify voices,foster understanding, and spark
change in the way we view andsupport neurodiversity.
We're so excited to have youwith us as we celebrate the
beauty of diverse minds and worktoward a more inclusive future.
(00:51):
So sit back, relax, and getstarted. Welcome to the
Neurodiversity Voices podcast.Today we're giving the
opportunity to two universitystudents, Hussein Saab and Zion
Chinwo from the Venture forCanada through their
Entrepreneurship Program, whichis a project based program
(01:11):
designed to show post secondarystudents that paid work
experience, network connections,and career clarity just come
from a job. They will take overour position as hosts for this
episode.
They will be joined by threeinspiring guests from the
Neurodiversity StudentsAssociation at Toronto
(01:36):
Metropolitan University Thispublic research university is in
the Garden District in DowntownToronto, Canada. Our guests are
Jenna Ignaczak, the Co PresidentMalka Finkelstein from the
Events and Marketing Committeeand Maddie Sardone, Vice
(01:57):
President of Marketing. Togetherthey will discuss what it really
means to build a neurodivergentfriendly campus, the systemic
barriers that still exist, andhow Generation Z is actively
shifting the narrative onneurodiversity. Let's get into
their conversation.
Hussein Saab (02:19):
Welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices broadcast,
where we embrace every mind andshare every voice. I'm Hussein.
Zion Chinwo (02:27):
And I'm Zion.
Hussein Saab (02:28):
And today, we're diving into the lived
experiences of neurodivergentstudents navigating post
secondary education.
Zion Chinwo (02:36):
And that's right. So today's episode is all about
inclusion, advocacy, andimagining a future where
neurodivergent students areseen, supported, and empowered
on campus.
Hussein Saab (02:45):
We're excited to welcome our guests from the
Neurodiversity StudentsAssociation at TMU. Let's kick
things off with someintroductions. Could each of you
tell us your name and a littleabout what inspired you to join
the NDSA?
Jenna Ignaczak (02:58):
Sure, my name's
Jenna and I first starteduniversity a few years ago and I
was having trouble makingfriends on campus, so I was
looking through the schoolwebsite to find a club that I
could join. Saw the NDSA listedthere and I decided to join. And
when I first joined, it was likevery dead and there wasn't a lot
(03:19):
of chatting going on, but slowlythe club picked up and there was
a new president and everythingjust got a lot more active. And
then that's how I kind of joinedthe committee and then became
director of events. Now I'm theco president.
Malka Finkelstein (03:31):
Hi, my name is Malka. I am a upcoming
student at TMU. So I start thisSeptember. I was actually aware
of the club before I became astudent. I have a friend who's
actually a TMU student who kindof introduced me to his friend
group, which just happened to bethe people that are in charge of
the club now.
So I was offered to join theclub as a committee member once
(03:54):
I was like officially enrolledat TMU. I was diagnosed with
ADHD as an adult. And so it'svery interesting for me because
I didn't realize I was ADHDuntil I was in my twenties. And
so with the club, I kind of feellike I want to be able to help
people who are kind of in thissimilar boat to me where they
weren't necessarily aware thatthey were neurodivergent as a
(04:15):
child, but now as an adult,everything kind of just like
falls into place.
Zion Chinwo (04:21):
To start us off, we'd love to hear from each of
you. What does the termneurodiversity mean to you
personally?
Jenna Ignaczak (04:27):
To me, neurodiversity is just like a
word that describes howeveryone's brain is different.
Kind of encompasses everyone.And then within neurodiversity,
you have both neurotypical andneurodivergent people. So pretty
broad term. I think I like it alot because instead of like
pathologizing people and puttingthem into like this outcasted
(04:49):
box, it kind of just says like,we're all neurodiverse and we
all work differently.
And it just emphasizes thatthere isn't one right way to be,
and everyone has certainstrengths and challenges. Then
you can kind of get into themore specific terms like
neurodivergent. And that is alsoa pretty broad term and it just
kind of like encompasseseveryone that isn't
(05:09):
neurotypical.
Malka Finkelstein (05:10):
So for me, I see neurodiversity as kind of
like what makes you unique. Andkind of forging off what Jenna
said is just, it's a way todescribe, you know, everyone as
a whole. And then, you know,within neurodiversity, there are
people who are neurodivergentand then people who are
neurotypical. For me, like,because I went so long not
(05:30):
knowing I was neurodivergent.Like I always grew up thinking
that was weird or like there'ssomething off with me because I
had like a weird thing with likecertain sensory things, like
smells or textures, but like, Ididn't consider that I was
neurodivergent.
And so when I got diagnosed asan adult, you start to kind of
really understand yourselfbetter and just kind of how
(05:51):
people around you workdifferently. And just because
you have a sensitivity, youknow, let's say to like tags on
the back of your clothes, itdoesn't necessarily make you,
like, weird or different. It'sjust part of, like, the
diversity of being human, beingalive is just being different
from everyone else. And that's
Hussein Saab (06:12):
Let's talk about your campus life. Have you
experienced moments where youfelt truly understood or
supported as a neurodivergentstudent? And what did that look
like?
Jenna Ignaczak (06:21):
My first year in nursing, I actually had a really
amazing professor. She reachedout to me and built a connection
when the semester first started.So how it works at TMU
specifically is that you havelike an accommodation plan
written by the accommodationsoffice, and then you send it to
each individual professor. Andusually, I never hear back from
the professors. They just kindado it on their end, and they
don't really, like, talk to meor check-in with me.
(06:43):
But she particularly alwaysemailed me before any tests. She
reminded me to register with thetest center, and she just, like,
frequently checked in and sentme emails to make sure I was
getting my needs met. It wassuper helpful because when you
have to register for every testand every assignment, it
sometimes is, like, dozens persemester, and it can be pretty
difficult to stay on top of it.And another time I had a really
(07:03):
good professor was in adisability studies class and she
was very accommodating. She madesure that everyone had access to
the notes, whether or not youhad that specific accommodation,
which was really neat because itdidn't really make you feel like
outcasted.
Sometimes advocating for gettingyour needs met can make you feel
like you don't have dignity orthat it's, it's sometimes can be
really exhausting and scary, butshe made it so that everyone
(07:26):
could have the accommodation andyou didn't really need to like
disclose super personal medicalinformation to get it. And it
would, that was really nice.
Malka Finkelstein (07:33):
So I am still a new student at TMU, so I don't
really have the most anecdotesto speak of yet. I'm hoping that
everything will go smoothly. I'mcurrently in the process of
getting registered with ourAccessibilities Office. I could
speak on the club that I feelvery welcomed by the club. When
(07:54):
I was like freshly diagnosedwith ADHD, I didn't really have
a lot of people to talk to whowere also neurodivergent.
And it was a little isolatingbecause I was experiencing a lot
of things, especially when Ibegan medication for the first
time. I would like have no oneto talk to. So being a part of
the clout has been like a verywelcoming experience thus far.
(08:16):
So yeah, I'm hoping to have onlygood things to say when I
actually start classes.
Zion Chinwo (08:24):
On the flip side, we do know that support isn't
always there. What challengeshave either of you faced either
as a neurodivergent student oras an ally when trying to
navigate the school system?
Malka Finkelstein (08:35):
Okay. I actually wrote notes for this
one because I had a lot to say,but I didn't want to ramble. So
for me, as someone with ADHD, itis really hard sometimes for
teachers to understand. I'm notpaying attention because I don't
care. I'm not paying attentionbecause it is very difficult for
me to stay focused at a task athand, especially if you need to
(08:58):
focus on multiple things at onceduring class.
So like writing notes, but thenalso listening to what the
teacher is saying, and then alsomaking sure you're writing down
the stuff that's needed or stuffthat you don't need to know. And
it's even more difficult when,especially if you're like
sensitive to noises like I am,that sounds like someone
sniffling from a cold or, like,chewing gum sounds like nails on
(09:20):
a chalkboard to me. And so itcan be very overstimulating in a
classroom environment sometimes.And a lot of times, professors
don't necessarily understandthis, or if they do, they don't
really care because they kind ofhave this mentality of, well,
you're an adult, so you'll justhave to deal with it, which can
be very difficult sometimesbecause I don't want to come off
(09:41):
childish being like, I can't payattention and I don't feel like
trying any harder. But at thesame time, the professors should
also also should understandthat, you know, our people with
neurodivergency, their brainsare wired differently.
So we respond different todifferent stimuli. Yeah.
Maddie Sardone (09:58):
No, I agree. Both. I'm sorry. I'm Maddie.
Personally, I have had a hardtime navigating the system when
it comes to getting my needs metbecause I am labeled as
difficult due to the fact thatmy study is more complex than
the school wants to be. Sotherefore, I cannot get the help
(10:20):
needed. And they offered andtherefore, I've been told by my
adviser and the AAS to just giveup and quit school, to no one be
there because I am too much workto support is the best way to
put it.
Hussein Saab (10:41):
So what do you think your university is getting
right and where do they stillfall short?
Jenna Ignaczak (10:47):
Our university is they're definitely on the
right track in some ways. Likewe do have a specific
accommodations office set upwhere we have people there who
they're kind of trying to makethe bridge between the students
and the professors, and they domostly try to get us
accommodations, but sometimesit's still, there's a large lack
(11:09):
of education with theaccommodations office. We've had
a lot of students havingdifficulties particularly with
them because like, for example,one student had a shutdown and
the accommodations officethought that they were deaf
because they hadn't, they had noidea how to deal with that. And
they are supposed to be the oneresource that is there
specifically for disabledstudents, but it oftentimes does
(11:31):
still fall short. And likeMaddie said, a lot of times,
instead of advocating for us,they say it's too complex or
that it would be easier just todrop out.
Malka Finkelstein (11:39):
So even though I'm a new TMU student, I
went to a college previouslywhere I was involved in kind of
the accommodations relatedservices. And I feel like a lot
of schools have really, reallygood groundwork laid out in
terms
of
offering accommodations. Theproblem is actually securing
those proper accommodations andthen individualizing them for
(12:03):
every student. And then an evenbigger issue is having the
professors then follow throughwith that accommodations plan. I
feel like also a lot of thepeople that work for the
accommodations aren't asinformed as I would like them to
be on different disabilities andwhat different physical, mental
disabilities look like and howit can represent itself. Like
(12:26):
Jenna said, a student had toshut down, which can result in
someone not responding to peopletalking to them because they're
just so stuck in that momentright there.
And the fact that they thoughtthe student was deaf because
they couldn't recognize the factthat they were having a moment
is very disappointing. I feellike also a lot of times the
(12:46):
accommodations are not thatgreat. For example, TMU note
takers are supposed to be ableto help students take notes.
However, I've heard and havebeen told they're actually
really bad and oftenunderperform or just deliver
nothing at the end of the day.And I also hear a lot about
professors who just don't careenough, or they have a lot of
(13:09):
personal biases against studentswith accommodations.
So they just won't followthrough on the accommodation
plan that a student haspresented them from the
accessibility office. And sothat's why I said like, they
have really good groundwork.Like they have the proper stuff
started to get stuff rolling.The problem is the follow
through and the making sure thatpeople are actually informed to
(13:30):
work for the offices is just notthere. And it can be really
frustrating because from asurface level, it looks like
Team U does great in theiraccessibility, but then you see
all of the cracks kind ofunderneath the surface and it
can be kind of disheartening ifyou have more complex needs.
Zion Chinwo (13:49):
Yeah, certainly. So I love what you said, Malka,
about having the foundationalgroundwork in post secondary
education. So if we could abetter future and you could
redesign one part of postsecondary life to be more
inclusive, what would you changefirst?
Maddie Sardone (14:08):
Can I answer this question?
Zion Chinwo (14:09):
Yeah, of course. Go ahead.
Maddie Sardone (14:10):
Okay. Well, I can't switch to any four active
to type in this question becausethey were both tied together.
From personally, for me, it's sothe last question they asked, I
agree with Malka a lot, and Iagree to agree with Jenna a lot.
And they said then the thingthat I would add is they also
aren't like, I feel like theschool is not informed of those
(14:31):
with disabilities. They shouldbe.
And I also like to to studentsat all. And that that I think
they should definitely work ongoing forward is trying to just
maybe getting so they're havingeducators who actually
understand disabilities andactually knows the leaders
involved and have more people inthe school to be more involved,
(14:55):
to be more understandingdisabilities. That's a course to
take if that's, like, an extra,like, good class to take
because, like, I don't know.High school teachers have to go
to those meetings. And for that,there's other, like, workshops
to learn disabilities.
So I don't see why it's sodifferent universities to do the
same when when coming to highschools can. That's the biggest
issue I see. For myself, priormedications my disabilities so
(15:22):
different than others. I seepeople who have so much
disabilities like me who arebrain complex, they just don't
know how to help us. There arenot enough resources out there
where they can understand it.
I've had times already get mymom's email for me, can my brain
can't remember who I am. I can'tremember who what happens to me
or who I am around me. Sotherefore, my mom has to email
(15:45):
my professors and at first actthem mad, they're lazy, they
wouldn't that I can't email backthem properly. They had mom to
for me. So it's definitely is arough rough it really rough when
it comes to me.
I definitely think that's a hugeproblem that needs to be worked
on. And so that's the best partis maybe a week workshops. Going
(16:05):
to workshops, trying to find outif she needs them. That's my
take on it.
Jenna Ignaczak (16:09):
I think education, like Maddie said, is
super important. I think also away that the school could do
this is by having maybe likeother students paired up with
other disabled students so thatthey can kind of advocate on
each other's behalf. Because alot of times also when you're
joining these meetings with yourfacilitator, it can be really
(16:29):
exhausting trying to stand upfor yourself and also really
scary. You don't sometimes youdon't even know what's available
because everything is kind oflike hidden behind all the,
these different pathways thatyou can't really easily access.
So having someone there thatcould be advocating for you on
your behalf, whether it is likeanother student or someone else,
I think that would be reallyhelpful.
And that would probably reallyhelp make postsecondary life
(16:52):
better for a lot of people.
Hussein Saab (16:57):
Looking at the bigger picture now, what does a
truly neurodivergent friendlycampus look like to you?
Malka Finkelstein (17:04):
So this question I was like thinking on
answering because I was having ahard time coming up with an
answer because I'm not reallysure how to phrase this, like in
terms of my needs when it comesto accommodations, I would say
I'm like on the lower end ofneeds. A lot of the stuff that I
(17:27):
look for in accommodations isprobably the simplest ones they
give. And so I wasn't super surewith what a truly inclusive
campus would look like, but Ithink a really good start would
be talking to the voices thatyou need to talk to. So talking
to it, like talking toneurodivergent students and just
straight up asking them, whatwould you want to see in our
(17:48):
campus? What are some thingsthat you think would be more
neurodivergent friendly?
Because the best way to kind offigure that out is talk to the
people that need it the most.
Maddie Sardone (17:59):
Yeah. For me, it would definitely be, I think,
the best way to make it moresafe place for neurodivergent
students to go to school or evenbe part of school, we would
definitely be adding coursesonline or having classrooms
have, like, less having thelight the lights being more dim
(18:22):
is definitely helpful. Lightingin a lot of people is very
sensory issues. Having dimlighting and that does not have
my sounds, that'd be great. Ialso definitely do think that,
as well, like Melica said, Ithink you have to ask the
students what they need andgetting better resources.
Main notetakers to actually nottake notes. Get recordings.
(18:45):
Record your classes while doingthem. Like you don't have to
record the like a videorecording of it. You get
recording of like them talking.
Being able to even get likesorry transcripts. Those would
be many like those things wouldbe a life changer for a lot of
students and they're actuallynot doing it. And I think it's
because once again, it's thefact that it is much easier to
(19:08):
rid of us than it is to keep us.It lets you just say, you know
what? You're disabled.
Let's just get rid of you. Andthat's what they wanna do. They
wanna check the door. And I'mnot saying because I don't wanna
be I'm being biased and beingmean, but because I've seen it.
My whole life, I've seen somestudents and to be told, they're
not good enough.
Just go to the door. Just don'tinvolve school. We taught it.
(19:29):
And it helped me. Like I've haddoctors, teachers, professors my
whole life telling me I don't Ishouldn't go to school.
I'm not gonna go to school. Evenwhen I went to university, was
told to drop out and I was toldby a doctor that I should
consider well not a doctor ormedical professional that I
consider maid as an option dueto disability. So there's been
(19:50):
many different obstacles
Jenna Ignaczak (19:53):
when comes to learning. I agree with getting
hearing more people and whateveryone needs because
everyone's access needs are canbe so different to me. I think
it would be more openness onwhat resources are available for
us and how we can access them.More like clear instructions on
that. And also more onlineclasses or like Maddie said,
(20:16):
like even just the transcripts,like someone recording the
lecture and then sharing itbecause sometimes it's not
always possible to get in class,like, whether you're not feeling
good.
A lot of people have differentdisabilities that they can't
actually show up in person, butit's not very difficult to just
record the classes. I think it'ssomething that could be really
easily done, but unfortunately,it's not done.
Hussein Saab (20:39):
We know that peers and professors can play a big
role in shaping your experience.How can fellow students be
better allies to theirneurodivergent peers?
Malka Finkelstein (20:48):
That's really funny because I wrote like two
lines of notes. I wrote that I'mnot really sure how to answer
this because, and I feel likeI'm very lucky. I haven't really
dealt with issues of peoplebeing ableist to me. And I think
it's because for a really longtime, I was masking basically my
(21:10):
entire childhood, I want to say.A lot of the times, the only
people that I really see, likemaking blatant kind of, I'm not
sure the word I want to use isblatant, like talking down to
people with disabilities is likeboomers who go like, oh,
everyone these days is autistic.
I feel like a mistake thatpeople often make is thinking
(21:30):
like every autistic or everyADHD person is exactly the same,
when in reality it's very much aspectrum of different needs and
stuff like that.
Maddie Sardone (21:41):
It's our best question again?
Hussein Saab (21:42):
When it comes to students being better allies to
neurodivergent peers, what wouldyou like to see and how do you
think that could happen?
Maddie Sardone (21:52):
I'd say, advocate. Like, I think best
thing to do is you're in aclassroom. We're gonna see
people talking and they're gonnaand if you see something that's
unfair, think about it. Like,it's not hard to say, hey. I
don't think that's fair or, hey.
I don't think that's okay. Like,as a social work student, we're
told that. We're told to speakout. We're told to call it out.
(22:15):
And I think it's reallydisheartening because I've seen
it in my program where peopledon't.
I've been told many ninth ofpeers, what's wrong with you?
Why can't you just get ittogether? But I've seen who just
can't because disability agewon't let them. And it sucks
because every person who is alldisabled, I've had to step up
while having a seizure, havingto help other students out
(22:39):
because no one else will. Andthe professors don't really want
to, or the schools don't want tohelp me out.
So I have to then take a bondsperson who is support some for
students who actually is wayhigher up than AES. If you owe
them for massive big things andthey're not helping you
sometimes they don't really knowhow to help you out because
(23:03):
school is so limited andinstructors that leaves a lot of
students not being able to helptheir fall students out, which I
think is the problem withinstitution itself.
Jenna Ignaczak (23:12):
Definitely like surrounding yourself with
neurodivergent people, hearingwhat they have to say about it.
I think most people don't reallyrealize some of the things that
they're saying are harmful. WhatMalka said about how a lot of
people say like, oh, everyone'sa little bit autistic or people
saying like, oh yeah, I havetrouble focusing sometimes. I
have ADHD. But kind of using itin more of like a general sense
(23:35):
instead of like realizing howsignificantly these conditions
can actually affect people.
And then as Maddie said,speaking up about it when you
hear someone saying things thataren't true or just making sure
you're not perpetuating theharmful stereotypes that are out
there is really important.
Zion Chinwo (23:53):
Thank you both. And Malka, I think you made a really
good point that you stated yousaw a lot of ableism from older
generation. So what role shouldprofessors or administrators
play in creating inclusivespaces without overburdening
themselves or the system?
Jenna Ignaczak (24:10):
I've had some really good experiences with
professors like before theyemail me, before tests, making
sure I sign up and everything,that's super helpful. A lot of
times I think it is difficultbecause professors do have a lot
on their plates. But they doalso have teaching assistants.
And I think the best way was thedisability studies professor who
she had other students, insteadof having to write the weekly
(24:33):
discussion posts, she offered analternative of uploading the
notes for everyone. And that's areally good way to, like,
offload some of the work fromthemselves and just have it
like, the students really don'tmind, especially when they're
given, like, an alternativeassignment like that so that
they don't have extra work.
It's just something differentand still shows that they're
learning the content. And thenhaving the students supporting
(24:54):
other students is reallyeffective and a good way to do
it.
Maddie Sardone (24:56):
Yeah. For me, a professor's actually more
helpful than my my facilitatorshave been and the school's been.
Giving, like, differentalternate assignments, getting
longer on exams. So that's beenvery helpful for me. My
professor decided Hollywoodhelps me out more and, like, I
(25:19):
talk to them about my studyfirst.
And that's just that's it. Ithink that's the best thing
anything you can do and walkinto school is to first, like,
for being in school and withthat or trying to have my
teacher is talk to them. And Iit's sad to say, but you have
like, I don't get the privilegeof saying I'm I'm with AES, and
that's it. I have to tell themeverything about my body. He'll
(25:41):
tie into every little detailbecause I want because or else
I'll be portrayed as lazy.
He just says all that stuff.Then rumors that you would still
see somebody who's disabled. Andthat's or not. So I have more of
the have talked to the press allthe time. I'll tell them I sweat
(26:02):
it completely.
And it does suck, but it doesget me this part I need from
them. And then this part I getfrom my affair.
Malka Finkelstein (26:10):
I think Jenna and Maddie covered it pretty
well. Was, like, giving it areally good thought when you
asked the question, but Ipersonally can't really come up
with anything outside of just ifyou wanna, like, lessen the
burden on the teachers or on, Iguess, the institution itself is
find ways that students cansupport other students. What
(26:32):
Jenna mentioned with studentssharing their notes within each
other, it's really useful. WhenI was in college, we would
always help each other withassignments. So I guess try to
encourage kind of student onstudent assistance and just kind
of looking out for every
Maddie Sardone (26:47):
Quickly to add on to well, like I said, you
can't do that at TMU withoutbreaking policy 60. That's the
whole issue with the studentstudent help. It is irrelevant
because policy 60 didn't letyou.
Malka Finkelstein (27:01):
To be fair, I'm not a student yet. I didn't
notice. Okay. That's kinda kindanot good. Team you.
Way to go.
Zion Chinwo (27:12):
Maddie, do you wanna elaborate on what policy
60 is?
Maddie Sardone (27:16):
Yeah. So policy 60 basically says that you
cannot it's very contradictoryon itself. So it says you can't
turn out to the students. Youcan't huddle out projects. You
can't clarification withclarification.
You can't talk about on projectsat all times without
clarification at all. And it isI think I was reading it. I got
read it throughout the years. SoI'm part of AIA. There's
(27:38):
academic integrity ambassadors,and I'm part of it for years
now.
And it is the one of the mostconfusing policies out there, I
think. It makes no sense halftime because why can't we ask
students for help? Go peers andyou know talk to peers and ask
them what's this about, what'sthis what's about, without
having us fear that we're gonnaget in trouble, suspended,
(28:01):
failed, paying a fine. Like it'sjust about issues that it is
terrifying. And I limit studentsto even talk to one another
because we are always in terrorthat we're gonna end up in
suspension because there's notmuch information out there about
how what we can do, what wecan't do without being being
confused.
(28:21):
That's one issue I had with AASand well, not really. It's with
AIA and AIA and the wholeintegrity office is the fact
that we're not telling what's areal issue. We're not figuring
out how to make it moreunderstandable and simpler.
Hussein Saab (28:37):
Let's talk about accommodations and disclosure.
How do you guys approachconversations about your
neurodivergence in school oreven professional settings? Is
it empowering or stressful oreven both?
Jenna Ignaczak (28:52):
Definitely had a mix of both of those empowering
and stressful. I find it dependson the person you're talking to.
For example, I had a really goodemployer in the past where when
I disclosed it, like they wereactually happy to hear that I
was going to be working withother neurodivergent people. It
was a really good thing to havethe lived experience. And then
(29:12):
I've also been very afraid orscared to share that I need
accommodations when I've heardthis particular person I have to
talk to saying harmful thingsabout disability.
And when that's the case, it isdefinitely scary and stressful,
but it is something usually thatyou have to do. And I find
talking about it with likefriends and family beforehand,
(29:32):
having kind of like a script andknowing what you're going to say
is really helpful, butdefinitely it can be a mix of
both.
Malka Finkelstein (29:39):
So for me personally, I don't have an
issue asking for accommodationsor disclosing that I receive
accommodations. I totallyunderstand why it's stressful
because I've been in that spotbefore where I'm like, am I
gonna lose my job because I askfor accommodations? But then you
have to remember, thankfully welive in Canada where we have
(30:00):
laws that don't allow employersto discriminate against you for
having a disability. And if theydo, it's a crime. I find that
it's better to just, you know,even when it's really stressful
or scary to ask an employer, toask a, you know, educational
(30:21):
institution for accommodations.
You just have to be upfront whatyour needs are, because if they
don't know, they won't be ableto help you or offer you
anything. And additionally, thelack of accommodations can lead
to worse academic orprofessional outcomes. Again, it
is illegal in Canada todiscriminate or deny someone
(30:42):
from accommodations. So you haveevery right personally and
legally to request for it. So,yeah.
Maddie Sardone (30:50):
Like I just said, it is illegal in the
discrimination of race,discriminatory. Our promise is
they do it. Like it's done atuniversity. We've seen it. I I'm
proud of it.
Honestly, I haven't had a classthis last year in person and I
was not able at all to havenotes, lectures, nothing. I'd on
my own my own self, I've hadmyself the entire class, paid
(31:10):
for it, but I had no to teach meit. And I have to fight for
everything. I've had toconstantly sit down and talk to
our professors every singleclass. Hey.
This is my disability. And askthem fully what my disability
is. I don't have a chance to,like, oh, hi. I'm part AES, and
that's it. I full on tell themeverything that goes on with
(31:32):
disability and actually what itis.
And that sucks by itself. And Isaid before, like, that a job
placement, that's better. Like,I've had better job placements
than I had with the school. Jobslike, I've went into not jobs.
Like, I went to my placements,and they were very welcoming.
(31:56):
And they loved how I had reallife experiences to lead and and
all that stuff. And that way, ithelped me become a better I bet
helped me become a betteremployee for them in a way. So
because I knew how it would likeliving with somebody, and that
does not go away. That isdefinitely complicated. It gets
(32:17):
worse over time.
And it's just difficult at theschool.
Zion Chinwo (32:19):
I can imagine. Yeah. And even when it comes to
exams, essays, or evenparticipation methods, in what
ways do you think currentassessment methods such as those
disadvantage neurodivergentstudents? And what alternatives
would you like to see more of orwould you like to see in
general?
Maddie Sardone (32:37):
For me personally, because I have
memory issues, like before I dotend to have times where I had
seizures and I don't rememberanything at all happens. Now I
have ADHD which I think makes mewell, technically, ADD, what's
called ADD, now I have ADHD. Idon't remember things. My memory
is gone. Basically, I don't havemy memory is not there.
(32:58):
It's definitely more it's moreof a issue now than before. So I
definitely have an issue takingtests. My memory. Even the
little memories you give us,they're really memories at all.
It's just little abbreviations.
Oh, request a proposal and makethat short answer. Like, can't
do that. It's really hard. Andinstead, I prefer, like, a take
(33:21):
home exam where you can do it,with your notes or let's say a
essay. I'd rather do somethingwhere I can actually show my
learning through paper orsomething that has no memory to
rely on because memory is not anissue that I know a lot of
people struggle with especiallypeople with ADHD.
It is very hard to have a testand to not be able to remember
(33:45):
it because your brain can'tprocess it properly. No one else
does.
Jenna Ignaczak (33:48):
When I do tests, I tend to fidget a lot and it
can be particularly not good foronline ones that are proctored
because the camera is like sosmall and you have to be in the
frame the entire time. And whenI do it in person, I do have an
accommodation where I get like afive minute break per hour or
whatever. So I can like walkaround. But when it's online, it
(34:10):
is it always flags it. And thenit sends messages to the
professors and then theprofessors, they don't really
know what to do because it'ssaying that like I was cheating,
but I wasn't.
And it's just like a poorsystem. And I wish that that
system was better specificallyfor online. And in person, I
have an accommodation. You canwear headphones, but the
headphones they have are reallyuncomfortable and you can't
(34:32):
bring your own. So there's like,they have these accommodations
in place, but they're not alwaysvery good, especially online
ones.
Malka Finkelstein (34:39):
I was gonna say, so I am a chronic exam
failure. And it's not because Idon't know the information. It's
I have the same issue as Maddiewhere I have ADHD and I have
really bad memory recall,especially when I'm under
stress. I just remember it inlike high school, like pre
diagnosis, I would like studylike my butt off before an exam,
(35:01):
like every night, two weeksbefore the exam, I'd be studying
the over and over and over. AndI'm going into the test, like
repeating the answers in myhead.
I open the exam paper and mymind just goes blank. Like
there's just nothing there. Andin my brain, I know I studied
this. I should know theinformation. And so now suddenly
the information is not coming tome anymore.
And I like the idea of a takehome exam or just an alternative
(35:25):
way to show that you havelearned the information without
having to sit through a onehour, two hour test or exam. I
find that a lot of assessmentmethods are really difficult for
neurodivergent students. Likeinherently they're very like a
neurotypical thing, especiallyif it's like an open ended
question or there's trickquestions. My brain doesn't
process information the same waythat typical person would. And
(35:48):
so I can get very confused bytrick questions or open ended
questions.
And I personally, you know, I dobest when the question is just
straight up, like, here's theinformation we're looking for.
What is it? I also think likeputting a time limit on exams or
tests can be really stressful. Imentioned that like, especially
under stress, when you know youonly have two hours to take this
(36:09):
test, you start overthinkingabout all the questions you need
to answer and it can be reallyoverwhelming or you could
completely shut down and justfail, which is what I did a lot
in high school. So I think thebest way to find an alternative
is work with each studentindividually and find the, like
an alternative method of howthey can prove that they learned
(36:32):
the information.
And, you know, some studentsneed frequent breaks, some
students need more instruction,some need just, you know, a
gentle push to answer anotherquestion, just things that
aren't just plunking a studentdown and saying good luck and
leaving them alone for twohours.
Jenna Ignaczak (36:48):
The role where you have to constantly have your
eyes on your paper and you can'thave like wandering eyes or like
whatever the term is, is alsosuper difficult, especially for
neurodivergent people. Like whenI'm thinking like naturally my
eyes like tend to look around ata bunch of different things, but
that is like not allowed. Theythink you're cheating if your
eyes are like moving around andlooking at different things. So
(37:08):
that's really stressful as well.
Hussein Saab (37:12):
So have you guys ever felt like you needed to
mask or suppress parts ofyourself to succeed
academically?
Malka Finkelstein (37:21):
For entirety. When I was in elementary and
high school, I had an IEP and itwas very obvious that I had some
form of learning disability, butthey my parents, for whatever
reason, didn't want to get metested. So on that IEP, which I
used for all of elementary andhigh school, it just said
undiagnosed learning disability.And I grew up in a religious
(37:44):
environment. So I was in privateschool where I was learning half
the education was like regularschool studies and the other
half was religious studies.
And especially when you're in,you know, a small enclosed
environment, most, if not allthe students are neurotypical.
And unfortunately, they don'tknow what to do with students
who aren't. And so I was one ofthose students where they didn't
(38:07):
really know what to do with me.So they just kind of tried their
best. It let me skate bysomehow.
And so I learned really quicklygrowing up that if I just
pretend to understand or justsay whatever the teachers want
to hear in my answers, that'sgood enough because then I won't
get yelled at or I won't getlike told off for not passing.
(38:30):
And it was difficult because Ireally struggled in that
environment. I was very muchlike the worst student. I always
got told, oh, you aren't tryinghard enough or you're not living
up to your potential. And it'slike, I'm trying in the
environment that you've placedme in, but obviously it's not
working.
I find that traditional teachingmethods don't really work on
(38:53):
people who are neurodivergentbecause by nature, it is a very
neurotypical environment. So itforces a lot of neurodivergent
students to either likecompletely flunk or they really
have to mask and conform to theenvironment, which is a huge
detriment to themselves. And Ijust really wish that there was
more teachers that understoodthat it's not a one size fits
all teaching kind of style.
Maddie Sardone (39:16):
For me, I had the opposite experience. I was
diagnosed as a kid at age six.Age six, I was diagnosed with a
I have like many disabilities. Idon't know how many I was
diagnosed with. Was unlearnedabilities, medications.
So it means it's up to like sixdisabilities I have. My aunt,
the witch, psychologist, helpedme figure out which one I
actually had because they don'ttell you. Unless it's, like, one
(39:41):
is only they'll tell you. But wehad many of the ages that had
disabilities. And so my auntwent through it and found out
which one I had and what was.
But as well as I also have ADHDand I have a trilogy mutation.
We just call them my seizuresand all the all my other issues.
So basically for me, it wasknown as in school. I was known
(40:04):
as demonic. I was calleddemonic.
I was told never I'm gonna passschool. I thought I had to
literally make sure that I wasprestigious perfect. And I
always I used to study from andthis is at the age of seven
years old. I used to study fromthe from the time I got home at
5PM. Sometimes till like six inthe morning.
(40:26):
I didn't sleep. In high school Iwas lucky if I got five minutes
of sleep because I constantlythought education a privilege
and not a right. Like, I Ididn't think I had a right to
education. I thought it was I'mI'm lucky I'm in school. I'm
lucky I'm in high school.
I'm lucky I get the I'm in gradeschool. I had to fight for
everything since the age since Iwas six. If I didn't okay myself
(40:48):
and say hey I want to learn theywould have gave me answer on
tests which happened frequently.I wasn't even answers I was told
an idiot I was called his namesand I had teachers literally
tell me I'm never in my life. Ihad a doctor told me that no
matter what I did I'm nevergoing to get to university.
And here I am still fighting herrights, still trying to get
(41:09):
through school. And I have tosit here and I've seen my own
sisters and stuff like that.I've seen what I might with the
school system. I've seen it withhigh school, the grade schools,
and it's still happening. That'sjust so hidden that unless
you're disabled yourself orunless you really wanna learn,
you do no one else is gonnanotice it.
No one else is gonna help youback, help you back because they
don't see it.
Zion Chinwo (41:33):
Jenna, just zooming out and from the perspective of
someone who's an executive teamin this club, how is Gen Z
shifting the narrative aroundneurodiversity and changing what
normal even means?
Jenna Ignaczak (41:47):
So really cool question. I think about that a
lot as well. I think it's likethe openness of our generation
and I think maybe we're a lotless judgmental than previous
generations and kind of workingto get rid of the mold of like
what a person should be and thatpeople should be doing this. And
(42:08):
instead changing it to be like,can be their authentic selves
and that's okay. And even thingslike this podcast and there's a
lot more organizations poppingup, but people are sharing their
lived experiences, which alsoencourages others to share their
lived experiences and kindacreates a community of people
who now can all share with oneanother.
Hussein Saab (42:30):
So I wanted to ask you guys, what gives you hope
for the future of education andaccessibility?
Maddie Sardone (42:38):
Social workers, the social students, I can
always say we're a lot of socialworkers are looking at how to
improve systems. Our job is totake places to glue systems and
policies and tear apart. We'realso to colonize a lot of it.
And that's our job and that'swhat we do. And that's what I've
been doing.
I am doing it my whole life. Sofor me, it's not, it's not like
(43:02):
a big thing. I'm like, oh yeah,this is something that's huge.
It's me. It's like, okay, here'sthe stuff.
Look at it. Look at all thepolicies that I did this year
with the policy for permanentflexibility for disabilities,
the policies for a for policy60, both policies looked at both
of them and I literally tookthem and I read them all and I
cut them apart like sciencefiction and I had submitted a
(43:25):
paper right before I professortalking about how they should be
done in school. And it is not aneasy job. It's not going be done
in a day or a week, but the morewe are able to talk about issues
and more we're able tounderstand what's happening and
the magnitude of what is goingon, the issue isn't solely going
(43:47):
to become the problem. If thereis real change happening and
people really want it to happen.
That's what it takes. It takesthe fact that you have to really
want to change it. You have toreally want to make the change.
Cause it's always saying, Hey,want to change. But yet when the
process actually makes a changeis a difficult part, part.
(44:08):
Like I'm a guy, myself, I'm aresearch student and I've done
that where I've had to look atit, look at the policy 60, try
and inform somebody about it,try to see the collations
between cheating, disabilities,mental health, and policy 60 to
see where are we going wrong.And the problem is no one wants
to look at that of those issues.So how can we really change it
(44:31):
if no one look at the issues?And that's the problem that
we're having. And that's gonnabe a solution as well.
So if we do those issues, we dowe actually do take a lens and
stop trying to see all thegoodness of a thing and actually
look behind it all, all thecracks. Look at the formation.
Look at how it's broken down. Wecan then fix it from there. But
it's only if we're willing to.
Zion Chinwo (44:55):
Definitely comes from a willingness to be able to
change the systematic nature ofthe higher education system. And
finally, if every universityadmin in the country had to hear
this episode, What is one briefmessage that you'd want them to
take away from your story?
Malka Finkelstein (45:12):
Oh, I wanna say if they could take away
anything from this podcastepisode, I would say it's not
just about equality. It's aboutequity. So what I mean by that
is that they need to understandthat not every neurodivergent
student fits into this kind ofgeneral box of neurodiversity.
(45:32):
Very often, accommodations andother things that are set up to
assist students are verygeneric, very kind of
lackluster, and they're verylike one size fits all. But the
problem is that not everystudent needs that kind of one
size fits all type of mentality.
They need personalizedaccommodation plans, and on top
(45:55):
of that, they just kind of needthings tailored to what they
need rather than what theadministrative thinks they need,
which is why I say it's aboutequity not equality, because we
can all be equal, but ifsomeone's struggling under that
equality, then that's not reallyfair at the end of the day.
Jenna Ignaczak (46:13):
I think it's important to realize that we
don't really know what we don'tknow. It's important to ask
questions to students instead ofjust assuming that they are
being lazy. A lot of studentsare trying their best,
especially in higher education.People are paying to be there.
And they've applied to theseprograms and they do want to
succeed, but oftentimes they'renot given the resources they
(46:35):
need.
So instead of assuming thingsabout the student, I think we
should have a meeting with themand discuss what specifically
they need to help them succeed.
Zion Chinwo (46:43):
Yeah, of course, heavy emphasis on every student
is trying their best. Yeah, Idefinitely agree with that. And
Maddie, what would you like toadd?
Maddie Sardone (46:51):
I'd say it's KQA. This is for sure. This is
your type. Like, at the types.Look at the way your your
student's body and absolutelychange the mindset you have.
I'm looking at your symptoms intotal. Like, what are you doing
to make him more ableist? Whatare you doing that's not helping
it? And what are your beliefs?And how can you change that?
Because, again, I don't reallyhate this complexity. We're not
(47:12):
we're looking at more at moresports and more help. I love the
health and health sports. We'regoing to have more students
feeling absolutely lost. And I'mlucky that I was always fighting
because I was two years old.
I'm lucky that my mom has alwaystold me from the very beginning
that I am disabled, that I'mdifferent, and I always just
(47:34):
treat differently. So I'm luckyI had that experience when I was
a little kid and bullied andsurrendered against and I was
harmed, disabled, or else whoknows where it would end up. But
that's not the problem. How fardo we have to go for one
dangerous for us to realize theproblem? Please look at this
issue.
(47:54):
Look at the abilities,everything around you and don't
be ignorant to it because thereare students who probably have
done have done a whole thing tothemselves just to try to be
good enough. Don't let don't letit go that far.
Hussein Saab (48:11):
Thank you so much for sharing your stories, your
insights, your vision. Yourvoices are very powerful and
very necessary, and we really,really appreciate that you took
the time to join us on thispodcast. It was a very
insightful experience, and I'msure many will take a lot from
(48:32):
it. Thank you once again, Malka,Jenna, and Maddie.
Paul Cruz (48:40):
Thank you for tuning in to this powerful episode of
the Neurodiversity Voicespodcast. We're so grateful to
Jenna, Malka and Maddie fortheir courage, insight and
honesty. We also want to give awarm appreciation to our two
amazing hosts, Hussein and Zion.This conversation was more than
(49:01):
just informative. It was a callto action.
If there's one thing we hope youtake away, it's that equity
matters. Listening to livedexperience matters. And
together, we can createeducational spaces that honor
and uplift every kind of mind.If you enjoyed this
conversation, please rate,share, follow, subscribe, and
(49:25):
leave a review on your favoritepodcast app. If you have any
questions, ideas, or storiesyou'd like to share, please feel
free to contact us or fill outour listener survey form on our
website atwww.neurodiversityvoices.com.
We'd love to hear from you.Until next time, take care, stay
(49:48):
curious, and keep celebratingthe beauty of diverse minds.
Thanks for listening to theNeurodiversity Voices podcast.
Hello and welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices
podcast. I'm your host, PaulCruz, and I'm thrilled to have
you join us on this journey ofexploration, advocacy, and
celebration of neurodiversity.Together, we'll have meaningful
conversations, share inspiringstories, and challenge
misconceptions aboutneurodiversity. This podcast is
(00:26):
for everyone, whether you'reneurodivergent yourself, an
educator, parent, or justsomeone curious to learn more.
Our goal is to amplify voices,foster understanding, and spark
change in the way we view andsupport neurodiversity.
We're so excited to have youwith us as we celebrate the
beauty of diverse minds and worktoward a more inclusive future.
(00:51):
So sit back, relax, and getstarted. Welcome to the
Neurodiversity Voices podcast.Today we're giving the
opportunity to two universitystudents, Hussein Saab and Zion
Chinwo from the Venture forCanada through their
Entrepreneurship Program, whichis a project based program
(01:11):
designed to show post secondarystudents that paid work
experience, network connections,and career clarity just come
from a job. They will take overour position as hosts for this
episode.
They will be joined by threeinspiring guests from the
Neurodiversity StudentsAssociation at Toronto
(01:36):
Metropolitan University Thispublic research university is in
the Garden District in DowntownToronto, Canada. Our guests are
Jenna Ignaczak, the Co PresidentMalka Finkelstein from the
Events and Marketing Committeeand Maddie Sardone, Vice
(01:57):
President of Marketing. Togetherthey will discuss what it really
means to build a neurodivergentfriendly campus, the systemic
barriers that still exist, andhow Generation Z is actively
shifting the narrative onneurodiversity. Let's get into
their conversation.
Hussein Saab (02:19):
Welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices broadcast,
where we embrace every mind andshare every voice. I'm Hussein.
Zion Chinwo (02:27):
And I'm Zion.
Hussein Saab (02:28):
And today, we're diving into the lived
experiences of neurodivergentstudents navigating post
secondary education.
Zion Chinwo (02:36):
And that's right. So today's episode is all about
inclusion, advocacy, andimagining a future where
neurodivergent students areseen, supported, and empowered
on campus.
Hussein Saab (02:45):
We're excited to welcome our guests from the
Neurodiversity StudentsAssociation at TMU. Let's kick
things off with someintroductions. Could each of you
tell us your name and a littleabout what inspired you to join
the NDSA?
Jenna Ignaczak (02:58):
Sure, my name's
Jenna and I first starteduniversity a few years ago and I
was having trouble makingfriends on campus, so I was
looking through the schoolwebsite to find a club that I
could join. Saw the NDSA listedthere and I decided to join. And
when I first joined, it was likevery dead and there wasn't a lot
(03:19):
of chatting going on, but slowlythe club picked up and there was
a new president and everythingjust got a lot more active. And
then that's how I kind of joinedthe committee and then became
director of events. Now I'm theco president.
Malka Finkelstein (03:31):
Hi, my name is Malka. I am a upcoming
student at TMU. So I start thisSeptember. I was actually aware
of the club before I became astudent. I have a friend who's
actually a TMU student who kindof introduced me to his friend
group, which just happened to bethe people that are in charge of
the club now.
So I was offered to join theclub as a committee member once
(03:54):
I was like officially enrolledat TMU. I was diagnosed with
ADHD as an adult. And so it'svery interesting for me because
I didn't realize I was ADHDuntil I was in my twenties. And
so with the club, I kind of feellike I want to be able to help
people who are kind of in thissimilar boat to me where they
weren't necessarily aware thatthey were neurodivergent as a
(04:15):
child, but now as an adult,everything kind of just like
falls into place.
Zion Chinwo (04:21):
To start us off, we'd love to hear from each of
you. What does the termneurodiversity mean to you
personally?
Jenna Ignaczak (04:27):
To me, neurodiversity is just like a
word that describes howeveryone's brain is different.
Kind of encompasses everyone.And then within neurodiversity,
you have both neurotypical andneurodivergent people. So pretty
broad term. I think I like it alot because instead of like
pathologizing people and puttingthem into like this outcasted
(04:49):
box, it kind of just says like,we're all neurodiverse and we
all work differently.
And it just emphasizes thatthere isn't one right way to be,
and everyone has certainstrengths and challenges. Then
you can kind of get into themore specific terms like
neurodivergent. And that is alsoa pretty broad term and it just
kind of like encompasseseveryone that isn't
(05:09):
neurotypical.
Malka Finkelstein (05:10):
So for me, I see neurodiversity as kind of
like what makes you unique. Andkind of forging off what Jenna
said is just, it's a way todescribe, you know, everyone as
a whole. And then, you know,within neurodiversity, there are
people who are neurodivergentand then people who are
neurotypical. For me, like,because I went so long not
(05:30):
knowing I was neurodivergent.Like I always grew up thinking
that was weird or like there'ssomething off with me because I
had like a weird thing with likecertain sensory things, like
smells or textures, but like, Ididn't consider that I was
neurodivergent.
And so when I got diagnosed asan adult, you start to kind of
really understand yourselfbetter and just kind of how
(05:51):
people around you workdifferently. And just because
you have a sensitivity, youknow, let's say to like tags on
the back of your clothes, itdoesn't necessarily make you,
like, weird or different. It'sjust part of, like, the
diversity of being human, beingalive is just being different
from everyone else. And that's
Hussein Saab (06:12):
Let's talk about your campus life. Have you
experienced moments where youfelt truly understood or
supported as a neurodivergentstudent? And what did that look
like?
Jenna Ignaczak (06:21):
My first year in nursing, I actually had a really
amazing professor. She reachedout to me and built a connection
when the semester first started.So how it works at TMU
specifically is that you havelike an accommodation plan
written by the accommodationsoffice, and then you send it to
each individual professor. Andusually, I never hear back from
the professors. They just kindado it on their end, and they
don't really, like, talk to meor check-in with me.
(06:43):
But she particularly alwaysemailed me before any tests. She
reminded me to register with thetest center, and she just, like,
frequently checked in and sentme emails to make sure I was
getting my needs met. It wassuper helpful because when you
have to register for every testand every assignment, it
sometimes is, like, dozens persemester, and it can be pretty
difficult to stay on top of it.And another time I had a really
(07:03):
good professor was in adisability studies class and she
was very accommodating. She madesure that everyone had access to
the notes, whether or not youhad that specific accommodation,
which was really neat because itdidn't really make you feel like
outcasted.
Sometimes advocating for gettingyour needs met can make you feel
like you don't have dignity orthat it's, it's sometimes can be
really exhausting and scary, butshe made it so that everyone
(07:26):
could have the accommodation andyou didn't really need to like
disclose super personal medicalinformation to get it. And it
would, that was really nice.
Malka Finkelstein (07:33):
So I am still a new student at TMU, so I don't
really have the most anecdotesto speak of yet. I'm hoping that
everything will go smoothly. I'mcurrently in the process of
getting registered with ourAccessibilities Office. I could
speak on the club that I feelvery welcomed by the club. When
(07:54):
I was like freshly diagnosedwith ADHD, I didn't really have
a lot of people to talk to whowere also neurodivergent.
And it was a little isolatingbecause I was experiencing a lot
of things, especially when Ibegan medication for the first
time. I would like have no oneto talk to. So being a part of
the clout has been like a verywelcoming experience thus far.
(08:16):
So yeah, I'm hoping to have onlygood things to say when I
actually start classes.
Zion Chinwo (08:24):
On the flip side, we do know that support isn't
always there. What challengeshave either of you faced either
as a neurodivergent student oras an ally when trying to
navigate the school system?
Malka Finkelstein (08:35):
Okay. I actually wrote notes for this
one because I had a lot to say,but I didn't want to ramble. So
for me, as someone with ADHD, itis really hard sometimes for
teachers to understand. I'm notpaying attention because I don't
care. I'm not paying attentionbecause it is very difficult for
me to stay focused at a task athand, especially if you need to
(08:58):
focus on multiple things at onceduring class.
So like writing notes, but thenalso listening to what the
teacher is saying, and then alsomaking sure you're writing down
the stuff that's needed or stuffthat you don't need to know. And
it's even more difficult when,especially if you're like
sensitive to noises like I am,that sounds like someone
sniffling from a cold or, like,chewing gum sounds like nails on
(09:20):
a chalkboard to me. And so itcan be very overstimulating in a
classroom environment sometimes.And a lot of times, professors
don't necessarily understandthis, or if they do, they don't
really care because they kind ofhave this mentality of, well,
you're an adult, so you'll justhave to deal with it, which can
be very difficult sometimesbecause I don't want to come off
(09:41):
childish being like, I can't payattention and I don't feel like
trying any harder. But at thesame time, the professors should
also also should understandthat, you know, our people with
neurodivergency, their brainsare wired differently.
So we respond different todifferent stimuli. Yeah.
Maddie Sardone (09:58):
No, I agree. Both. I'm sorry. I'm Maddie.
Personally, I have had a hardtime navigating the system when
it comes to getting my needs metbecause I am labeled as
difficult due to the fact thatmy study is more complex than
the school wants to be. Sotherefore, I cannot get the help
(10:20):
needed. And they offered andtherefore, I've been told by my
adviser and the AAS to just giveup and quit school, to no one be
there because I am too much workto support is the best way to
put it.
Hussein Saab (10:41):
So what do you think your university is getting
right and where do they stillfall short?
Jenna Ignaczak (10:47):
Our university is they're definitely on the
right track in some ways. Likewe do have a specific
accommodations office set upwhere we have people there who
they're kind of trying to makethe bridge between the students
and the professors, and they domostly try to get us
accommodations, but sometimesit's still, there's a large lack
(11:09):
of education with theaccommodations office. We've had
a lot of students havingdifficulties particularly with
them because like, for example,one student had a shutdown and
the accommodations officethought that they were deaf
because they hadn't, they had noidea how to deal with that. And
they are supposed to be the oneresource that is there
specifically for disabledstudents, but it oftentimes does
(11:31):
still fall short. And likeMaddie said, a lot of times,
instead of advocating for us,they say it's too complex or
that it would be easier just todrop out.
Malka Finkelstein (11:39):
So even though I'm a new TMU student, I
went to a college previouslywhere I was involved in kind of
the accommodations relatedservices. And I feel like a lot
of schools have really, reallygood groundwork laid out in
terms
of
offering accommodations. Theproblem is actually securing
those proper accommodations andthen individualizing them for
(12:03):
every student. And then an evenbigger issue is having the
professors then follow throughwith that accommodations plan. I
feel like also a lot of thepeople that work for the
accommodations aren't asinformed as I would like them to
be on different disabilities andwhat different physical, mental
disabilities look like and howit can represent itself. Like
(12:26):
Jenna said, a student had toshut down, which can result in
someone not responding to peopletalking to them because they're
just so stuck in that momentright there.
And the fact that they thoughtthe student was deaf because
they couldn't recognize the factthat they were having a moment
is very disappointing. I feellike also a lot of times the
(12:46):
accommodations are not thatgreat. For example, TMU note
takers are supposed to be ableto help students take notes.
However, I've heard and havebeen told they're actually
really bad and oftenunderperform or just deliver
nothing at the end of the day.And I also hear a lot about
professors who just don't careenough, or they have a lot of
(13:09):
personal biases against studentswith accommodations.
So they just won't followthrough on the accommodation
plan that a student haspresented them from the
accessibility office. And sothat's why I said like, they
have really good groundwork.Like they have the proper stuff
started to get stuff rolling.The problem is the follow
through and the making sure thatpeople are actually informed to
(13:30):
work for the offices is just notthere. And it can be really
frustrating because from asurface level, it looks like
Team U does great in theiraccessibility, but then you see
all of the cracks kind ofunderneath the surface and it
can be kind of disheartening ifyou have more complex needs.
Zion Chinwo (13:49):
Yeah, certainly. So I love what you said, Malka,
about having the foundationalgroundwork in post secondary
education. So if we could abetter future and you could
redesign one part of postsecondary life to be more
inclusive, what would you changefirst?
Maddie Sardone (14:08):
Can I answer this question?
Zion Chinwo (14:09):
Yeah, of course. Go ahead.
Maddie Sardone (14:10):
Okay. Well, I can't switch to any four active
to type in this question becausethey were both tied together.
From personally, for me, it's sothe last question they asked, I
agree with Malka a lot, and Iagree to agree with Jenna a lot.
And they said then the thingthat I would add is they also
aren't like, I feel like theschool is not informed of those
(14:31):
with disabilities. They shouldbe.
And I also like to to studentsat all. And that that I think
they should definitely work ongoing forward is trying to just
maybe getting so they're havingeducators who actually
understand disabilities andactually knows the leaders
involved and have more people inthe school to be more involved,
(14:55):
to be more understandingdisabilities. That's a course to
take if that's, like, an extra,like, good class to take
because, like, I don't know.High school teachers have to go
to those meetings. And for that,there's other, like, workshops
to learn disabilities.
So I don't see why it's sodifferent universities to do the
same when when coming to highschools can. That's the biggest
issue I see. For myself, priormedications my disabilities so
(15:22):
different than others. I seepeople who have so much
disabilities like me who arebrain complex, they just don't
know how to help us. There arenot enough resources out there
where they can understand it.
I've had times already get mymom's email for me, can my brain
can't remember who I am. I can'tremember who what happens to me
or who I am around me. Sotherefore, my mom has to email
(15:45):
my professors and at first actthem mad, they're lazy, they
wouldn't that I can't email backthem properly. They had mom to
for me. So it's definitely is arough rough it really rough when
it comes to me.
I definitely think that's a hugeproblem that needs to be worked
on. And so that's the best partis maybe a week workshops. Going
(16:05):
to workshops, trying to find outif she needs them. That's my
take on it.
Jenna Ignaczak (16:09):
I think education, like Maddie said, is
super important. I think also away that the school could do
this is by having maybe likeother students paired up with
other disabled students so thatthey can kind of advocate on
each other's behalf. Because alot of times also when you're
joining these meetings with yourfacilitator, it can be really
(16:29):
exhausting trying to stand upfor yourself and also really
scary. You don't sometimes youdon't even know what's available
because everything is kind oflike hidden behind all the,
these different pathways thatyou can't really easily access.
So having someone there thatcould be advocating for you on
your behalf, whether it is likeanother student or someone else,
I think that would be reallyhelpful.
And that would probably reallyhelp make postsecondary life
(16:52):
better for a lot of people.
Hussein Saab (16:57):
Looking at the bigger picture now, what does a
truly neurodivergent friendlycampus look like to you?
Malka Finkelstein (17:04):
So this question I was like thinking on
answering because I was having ahard time coming up with an
answer because I'm not reallysure how to phrase this, like in
terms of my needs when it comesto accommodations, I would say
I'm like on the lower end ofneeds. A lot of the stuff that I
(17:27):
look for in accommodations isprobably the simplest ones they
give. And so I wasn't super surewith what a truly inclusive
campus would look like, but Ithink a really good start would
be talking to the voices thatyou need to talk to. So talking
to it, like talking toneurodivergent students and just
straight up asking them, whatwould you want to see in our
(17:48):
campus? What are some thingsthat you think would be more
neurodivergent friendly?
Because the best way to kind offigure that out is talk to the
people that need it the most.
Maddie Sardone (17:59):
Yeah. For me, it would definitely be, I think,
the best way to make it moresafe place for neurodivergent
students to go to school or evenbe part of school, we would
definitely be adding coursesonline or having classrooms
have, like, less having thelight the lights being more dim
(18:22):
is definitely helpful. Lightingin a lot of people is very
sensory issues. Having dimlighting and that does not have
my sounds, that'd be great. Ialso definitely do think that,
as well, like Melica said, Ithink you have to ask the
students what they need andgetting better resources.
Main notetakers to actually nottake notes. Get recordings.
(18:45):
Record your classes while doingthem. Like you don't have to
record the like a videorecording of it. You get
recording of like them talking.
Being able to even get likesorry transcripts. Those would
be many like those things wouldbe a life changer for a lot of
students and they're actuallynot doing it. And I think it's
because once again, it's thefact that it is much easier to
(19:08):
rid of us than it is to keep us.It lets you just say, you know
what? You're disabled.
Let's just get rid of you. Andthat's what they wanna do. They
wanna check the door. And I'mnot saying because I don't wanna
be I'm being biased and beingmean, but because I've seen it.
My whole life, I've seen somestudents and to be told, they're
not good enough.
Just go to the door. Just don'tinvolve school. We taught it.
(19:29):
And it helped me. Like I've haddoctors, teachers, professors my
whole life telling me I don't Ishouldn't go to school.
I'm not gonna go to school. Evenwhen I went to university, was
told to drop out and I was toldby a doctor that I should
consider well not a doctor ormedical professional that I
consider maid as an option dueto disability. So there's been
(19:50):
many different obstacles
Jenna Ignaczak (19:53):
when comes to learning. I agree with getting
hearing more people and whateveryone needs because
everyone's access needs are canbe so different to me. I think
it would be more openness onwhat resources are available for
us and how we can access them.More like clear instructions on
that. And also more onlineclasses or like Maddie said,
(20:16):
like even just the transcripts,like someone recording the
lecture and then sharing itbecause sometimes it's not
always possible to get in class,like, whether you're not feeling
good.
A lot of people have differentdisabilities that they can't
actually show up in person, butit's not very difficult to just
record the classes. I think it'ssomething that could be really
easily done, but unfortunately,it's not done.
Hussein Saab (20:39):
We know that peers and professors can play a big
role in shaping your experience.How can fellow students be
better allies to theirneurodivergent peers?
Malka Finkelstein (20:48):
That's really funny because I wrote like two
lines of notes. I wrote that I'mnot really sure how to answer
this because, and I feel likeI'm very lucky. I haven't really
dealt with issues of peoplebeing ableist to me. And I think
it's because for a really longtime, I was masking basically my
(21:10):
entire childhood, I want to say.A lot of the times, the only
people that I really see, likemaking blatant kind of, I'm not
sure the word I want to use isblatant, like talking down to
people with disabilities is likeboomers who go like, oh,
everyone these days is autistic.
I feel like a mistake thatpeople often make is thinking
(21:30):
like every autistic or everyADHD person is exactly the same,
when in reality it's very much aspectrum of different needs and
stuff like that.
Maddie Sardone (21:41):
It's our best question again?
Hussein Saab (21:42):
When it comes to students being better allies to
neurodivergent peers, what wouldyou like to see and how do you
think that could happen?
Maddie Sardone (21:52):
I'd say, advocate. Like, I think best
thing to do is you're in aclassroom. We're gonna see
people talking and they're gonnaand if you see something that's
unfair, think about it. Like,it's not hard to say, hey. I
don't think that's fair or, hey.
I don't think that's okay. Like,as a social work student, we're
told that. We're told to speakout. We're told to call it out.
(22:15):
And I think it's reallydisheartening because I've seen
it in my program where peopledon't.
I've been told many ninth ofpeers, what's wrong with you?
Why can't you just get ittogether? But I've seen who just
can't because disability agewon't let them. And it sucks
because every person who is alldisabled, I've had to step up
while having a seizure, havingto help other students out
(22:39):
because no one else will. Andthe professors don't really want
to, or the schools don't want tohelp me out.
So I have to then take a bondsperson who is support some for
students who actually is wayhigher up than AES. If you owe
them for massive big things andthey're not helping you
sometimes they don't really knowhow to help you out because
(23:03):
school is so limited andinstructors that leaves a lot of
students not being able to helptheir fall students out, which I
think is the problem withinstitution itself.
Jenna Ignaczak (23:12):
Definitely like surrounding yourself with
neurodivergent people, hearingwhat they have to say about it.
I think most people don't reallyrealize some of the things that
they're saying are harmful. WhatMalka said about how a lot of
people say like, oh, everyone'sa little bit autistic or people
saying like, oh yeah, I havetrouble focusing sometimes. I
have ADHD. But kind of using itin more of like a general sense
(23:35):
instead of like realizing howsignificantly these conditions
can actually affect people.
And then as Maddie said,speaking up about it when you
hear someone saying things thataren't true or just making sure
you're not perpetuating theharmful stereotypes that are out
there is really important.
Zion Chinwo (23:53):
Thank you both. And Malka, I think you made a really
good point that you stated yousaw a lot of ableism from older
generation. So what role shouldprofessors or administrators
play in creating inclusivespaces without overburdening
themselves or the system?
Jenna Ignaczak (24:10):
I've had some really good experiences with
professors like before theyemail me, before tests, making
sure I sign up and everything,that's super helpful. A lot of
times I think it is difficultbecause professors do have a lot
on their plates. But they doalso have teaching assistants.
And I think the best way was thedisability studies professor who
she had other students, insteadof having to write the weekly
(24:33):
discussion posts, she offered analternative of uploading the
notes for everyone. And that's areally good way to, like,
offload some of the work fromthemselves and just have it
like, the students really don'tmind, especially when they're
given, like, an alternativeassignment like that so that
they don't have extra work.
It's just something differentand still shows that they're
learning the content. And thenhaving the students supporting
(24:54):
other students is reallyeffective and a good way to do
it.
Maddie Sardone (24:56):
Yeah. For me, a professor's actually more
helpful than my my facilitatorshave been and the school's been.
Giving, like, differentalternate assignments, getting
longer on exams. So that's beenvery helpful for me. My
professor decided Hollywoodhelps me out more and, like, I
(25:19):
talk to them about my studyfirst.
And that's just that's it. Ithink that's the best thing
anything you can do and walkinto school is to first, like,
for being in school and withthat or trying to have my
teacher is talk to them. And Iit's sad to say, but you have
like, I don't get the privilegeof saying I'm I'm with AES, and
that's it. I have to tell themeverything about my body. He'll
(25:41):
tie into every little detailbecause I want because or else
I'll be portrayed as lazy.
He just says all that stuff.Then rumors that you would still
see somebody who's disabled. Andthat's or not. So I have more of
the have talked to the press allthe time. I'll tell them I sweat
(26:02):
it completely.
And it does suck, but it doesget me this part I need from
them. And then this part I getfrom my affair.
Malka Finkelstein (26:10):
I think Jenna and Maddie covered it pretty
well. Was, like, giving it areally good thought when you
asked the question, but Ipersonally can't really come up
with anything outside of just ifyou wanna, like, lessen the
burden on the teachers or on, Iguess, the institution itself is
find ways that students cansupport other students. What
(26:32):
Jenna mentioned with studentssharing their notes within each
other, it's really useful. WhenI was in college, we would
always help each other withassignments. So I guess try to
encourage kind of student onstudent assistance and just kind
of looking out for every
Maddie Sardone (26:47):
Quickly to add on to well, like I said, you
can't do that at TMU withoutbreaking policy 60. That's the
whole issue with the studentstudent help. It is irrelevant
because policy 60 didn't letyou.
Malka Finkelstein (27:01):
To be fair, I'm not a student yet. I didn't
notice. Okay. That's kinda kindanot good. Team you.
Way to go.
Zion Chinwo (27:12):
Maddie, do you wanna elaborate on what policy
60 is?
Maddie Sardone (27:16):
Yeah. So policy 60 basically says that you
cannot it's very contradictoryon itself. So it says you can't
turn out to the students. Youcan't huddle out projects. You
can't clarification withclarification.
You can't talk about on projectsat all times without
clarification at all. And it isI think I was reading it. I got
read it throughout the years. SoI'm part of AIA. There's
(27:38):
academic integrity ambassadors,and I'm part of it for years
now.
And it is the one of the mostconfusing policies out there, I
think. It makes no sense halftime because why can't we ask
students for help? Go peers andyou know talk to peers and ask
them what's this about, what'sthis what's about, without
having us fear that we're gonnaget in trouble, suspended,
(28:01):
failed, paying a fine. Like it'sjust about issues that it is
terrifying. And I limit studentsto even talk to one another
because we are always in terrorthat we're gonna end up in
suspension because there's notmuch information out there about
how what we can do, what wecan't do without being being
confused.
(28:21):
That's one issue I had with AASand well, not really. It's with
AIA and AIA and the wholeintegrity office is the fact
that we're not telling what's areal issue. We're not figuring
out how to make it moreunderstandable and simpler.
Hussein Saab (28:37):
Let's talk about accommodations and disclosure.
How do you guys approachconversations about your
neurodivergence in school oreven professional settings? Is
it empowering or stressful oreven both?
Jenna Ignaczak (28:52):
Definitely had a mix of both of those empowering
and stressful. I find it dependson the person you're talking to.
For example, I had a really goodemployer in the past where when
I disclosed it, like they wereactually happy to hear that I
was going to be working withother neurodivergent people. It
was a really good thing to havethe lived experience. And then
(29:12):
I've also been very afraid orscared to share that I need
accommodations when I've heardthis particular person I have to
talk to saying harmful thingsabout disability.
And when that's the case, it isdefinitely scary and stressful,
but it is something usually thatyou have to do. And I find
talking about it with likefriends and family beforehand,
(29:32):
having kind of like a script andknowing what you're going to say
is really helpful, butdefinitely it can be a mix of
both.
Malka Finkelstein (29:39):
So for me personally, I don't have an
issue asking for accommodationsor disclosing that I receive
accommodations. I totallyunderstand why it's stressful
because I've been in that spotbefore where I'm like, am I
gonna lose my job because I askfor accommodations? But then you
have to remember, thankfully welive in Canada where we have
(30:00):
laws that don't allow employersto discriminate against you for
having a disability. And if theydo, it's a crime. I find that
it's better to just, you know,even when it's really stressful
or scary to ask an employer, toask a, you know, educational
(30:21):
institution for accommodations.
You just have to be upfront whatyour needs are, because if they
don't know, they won't be ableto help you or offer you
anything. And additionally, thelack of accommodations can lead
to worse academic orprofessional outcomes. Again, it
is illegal in Canada todiscriminate or deny someone
(30:42):
from accommodations. So you haveevery right personally and
legally to request for it. So,yeah.
Maddie Sardone (30:50):
Like I just said, it is illegal in the
discrimination of race,discriminatory. Our promise is
they do it. Like it's done atuniversity. We've seen it. I I'm
proud of it.
Honestly, I haven't had a classthis last year in person and I
was not able at all to havenotes, lectures, nothing. I'd on
my own my own self, I've hadmyself the entire class, paid
(31:10):
for it, but I had no to teach meit. And I have to fight for
everything. I've had toconstantly sit down and talk to
our professors every singleclass. Hey.
This is my disability. And askthem fully what my disability
is. I don't have a chance to,like, oh, hi. I'm part AES, and
that's it. I full on tell themeverything that goes on with
(31:32):
disability and actually what itis.
And that sucks by itself. And Isaid before, like, that a job
placement, that's better. Like,I've had better job placements
than I had with the school. Jobslike, I've went into not jobs.
Like, I went to my placements,and they were very welcoming.
(31:56):
And they loved how I had reallife experiences to lead and and
all that stuff. And that way, ithelped me become a better I bet
helped me become a betteremployee for them in a way. So
because I knew how it would likeliving with somebody, and that
does not go away. That isdefinitely complicated. It gets
(32:17):
worse over time.
And it's just difficult at theschool.
Zion Chinwo (32:19):
I can imagine. Yeah. And even when it comes to
exams, essays, or evenparticipation methods, in what
ways do you think currentassessment methods such as those
disadvantage neurodivergentstudents? And what alternatives
would you like to see more of orwould you like to see in
general?
Maddie Sardone (32:37):
For me personally, because I have
memory issues, like before I dotend to have times where I had
seizures and I don't rememberanything at all happens. Now I
have ADHD which I think makes mewell, technically, ADD, what's
called ADD, now I have ADHD. Idon't remember things. My memory
is gone. Basically, I don't havemy memory is not there.
(32:58):
It's definitely more it's moreof a issue now than before. So I
definitely have an issue takingtests. My memory. Even the
little memories you give us,they're really memories at all.
It's just little abbreviations.
Oh, request a proposal and makethat short answer. Like, can't
do that. It's really hard. Andinstead, I prefer, like, a take
(33:21):
home exam where you can do it,with your notes or let's say a
essay. I'd rather do somethingwhere I can actually show my
learning through paper orsomething that has no memory to
rely on because memory is not anissue that I know a lot of
people struggle with especiallypeople with ADHD.
It is very hard to have a testand to not be able to remember
(33:45):
it because your brain can'tprocess it properly. No one else
does.
Jenna Ignaczak (33:48):
When I do tests, I tend to fidget a lot and it
can be particularly not good foronline ones that are proctored
because the camera is like sosmall and you have to be in the
frame the entire time. And whenI do it in person, I do have an
accommodation where I get like afive minute break per hour or
whatever. So I can like walkaround. But when it's online, it
(34:10):
is it always flags it. And thenit sends messages to the
professors and then theprofessors, they don't really
know what to do because it'ssaying that like I was cheating,
but I wasn't.
And it's just like a poorsystem. And I wish that that
system was better specificallyfor online. And in person, I
have an accommodation. You canwear headphones, but the
headphones they have are reallyuncomfortable and you can't
(34:32):
bring your own. So there's like,they have these accommodations
in place, but they're not alwaysvery good, especially online
ones.
Malka Finkelstein (34:39):
I was gonna say, so I am a chronic exam
failure. And it's not because Idon't know the information. It's
I have the same issue as Maddiewhere I have ADHD and I have
really bad memory recall,especially when I'm under
stress. I just remember it inlike high school, like pre
diagnosis, I would like studylike my butt off before an exam,
(35:01):
like every night, two weeksbefore the exam, I'd be studying
the over and over and over. AndI'm going into the test, like
repeating the answers in myhead.
I open the exam paper and mymind just goes blank. Like
there's just nothing there. Andin my brain, I know I studied
this. I should know theinformation. And so now suddenly
the information is not coming tome anymore.
And I like the idea of a takehome exam or just an alternative
(35:25):
way to show that you havelearned the information without
having to sit through a onehour, two hour test or exam. I
find that a lot of assessmentmethods are really difficult for
neurodivergent students. Likeinherently they're very like a
neurotypical thing, especiallyif it's like an open ended
question or there's trickquestions. My brain doesn't
process information the same waythat typical person would. And
(35:48):
so I can get very confused bytrick questions or open ended
questions.
And I personally, you know, I dobest when the question is just
straight up, like, here's theinformation we're looking for.
What is it? I also think likeputting a time limit on exams or
tests can be really stressful. Imentioned that like, especially
under stress, when you know youonly have two hours to take this
(36:09):
test, you start overthinkingabout all the questions you need
to answer and it can be reallyoverwhelming or you could
completely shut down and justfail, which is what I did a lot
in high school. So I think thebest way to find an alternative
is work with each studentindividually and find the, like
an alternative method of howthey can prove that they learned
(36:32):
the information.
And, you know, some studentsneed frequent breaks, some
students need more instruction,some need just, you know, a
gentle push to answer anotherquestion, just things that
aren't just plunking a studentdown and saying good luck and
leaving them alone for twohours.
Jenna Ignaczak (36:48):
The role where you have to constantly have your
eyes on your paper and you can'thave like wandering eyes or like
whatever the term is, is alsosuper difficult, especially for
neurodivergent people. Like whenI'm thinking like naturally my
eyes like tend to look around ata bunch of different things, but
that is like not allowed. Theythink you're cheating if your
eyes are like moving around andlooking at different things. So
(37:08):
that's really stressful as well.
Hussein Saab (37:12):
So have you guys ever felt like you needed to
mask or suppress parts ofyourself to succeed
academically?
Malka Finkelstein (37:21):
For entirety. When I was in elementary and
high school, I had an IEP and itwas very obvious that I had some
form of learning disability, butthey my parents, for whatever
reason, didn't want to get metested. So on that IEP, which I
used for all of elementary andhigh school, it just said
undiagnosed learning disability.And I grew up in a religious
(37:44):
environment. So I was in privateschool where I was learning half
the education was like regularschool studies and the other
half was religious studies.
And especially when you're in,you know, a small enclosed
environment, most, if not allthe students are neurotypical.
And unfortunately, they don'tknow what to do with students
who aren't. And so I was one ofthose students where they didn't
(38:07):
really know what to do with me.So they just kind of tried their
best. It let me skate bysomehow.
And so I learned really quicklygrowing up that if I just
pretend to understand or justsay whatever the teachers want
to hear in my answers, that'sgood enough because then I won't
get yelled at or I won't getlike told off for not passing.
(38:30):
And it was difficult because Ireally struggled in that
environment. I was very muchlike the worst student. I always
got told, oh, you aren't tryinghard enough or you're not living
up to your potential. And it'slike, I'm trying in the
environment that you've placedme in, but obviously it's not
working.
I find that traditional teachingmethods don't really work on
(38:53):
people who are neurodivergentbecause by nature, it is a very
neurotypical environment. So itforces a lot of neurodivergent
students to either likecompletely flunk or they really
have to mask and conform to theenvironment, which is a huge
detriment to themselves. And Ijust really wish that there was
more teachers that understoodthat it's not a one size fits
all teaching kind of style.
Maddie Sardone (39:16):
For me, I had the opposite experience. I was
diagnosed as a kid at age six.Age six, I was diagnosed with a
I have like many disabilities. Idon't know how many I was
diagnosed with. Was unlearnedabilities, medications.
So it means it's up to like sixdisabilities I have. My aunt,
the witch, psychologist, helpedme figure out which one I
actually had because they don'ttell you. Unless it's, like, one
(39:41):
is only they'll tell you. But wehad many of the ages that had
disabilities. And so my auntwent through it and found out
which one I had and what was.
But as well as I also have ADHDand I have a trilogy mutation.
We just call them my seizuresand all the all my other issues.
So basically for me, it wasknown as in school. I was known
(40:04):
as demonic. I was calleddemonic.
I was told never I'm gonna passschool. I thought I had to
literally make sure that I wasprestigious perfect. And I
always I used to study from andthis is at the age of seven
years old. I used to study fromthe from the time I got home at
5PM. Sometimes till like six inthe morning.
(40:26):
I didn't sleep. In high school Iwas lucky if I got five minutes
of sleep because I constantlythought education a privilege
and not a right. Like, I Ididn't think I had a right to
education. I thought it was I'mI'm lucky I'm in school. I'm
lucky I'm in high school.
I'm lucky I get the I'm in gradeschool. I had to fight for
everything since the age since Iwas six. If I didn't okay myself
(40:48):
and say hey I want to learn theywould have gave me answer on
tests which happened frequently.I wasn't even answers I was told
an idiot I was called his namesand I had teachers literally
tell me I'm never in my life. Ihad a doctor told me that no
matter what I did I'm nevergoing to get to university.
And here I am still fighting herrights, still trying to get
(41:09):
through school. And I have tosit here and I've seen my own
sisters and stuff like that.I've seen what I might with the
school system. I've seen it withhigh school, the grade schools,
and it's still happening. That'sjust so hidden that unless
you're disabled yourself orunless you really wanna learn,
you do no one else is gonnanotice it.
No one else is gonna help youback, help you back because they
don't see it.
Zion Chinwo (41:33):
Jenna, just zooming out and from the perspective of
someone who's an executive teamin this club, how is Gen Z
shifting the narrative aroundneurodiversity and changing what
normal even means?
Jenna Ignaczak (41:47):
So really cool question. I think about that a
lot as well. I think it's likethe openness of our generation
and I think maybe we're a lotless judgmental than previous
generations and kind of workingto get rid of the mold of like
what a person should be and thatpeople should be doing this. And
(42:08):
instead changing it to be like,can be their authentic selves
and that's okay. And even thingslike this podcast and there's a
lot more organizations poppingup, but people are sharing their
lived experiences, which alsoencourages others to share their
lived experiences and kindacreates a community of people
who now can all share with oneanother.
Hussein Saab (42:30):
So I wanted to ask you guys, what gives you hope
for the future of education andaccessibility?
Maddie Sardone (42:38):
Social workers, the social students, I can
always say we're a lot of socialworkers are looking at how to
improve systems. Our job is totake places to glue systems and
policies and tear apart. We'realso to colonize a lot of it.
And that's our job and that'swhat we do. And that's what I've
been doing.
I am doing it my whole life. Sofor me, it's not, it's not like
(43:02):
a big thing. I'm like, oh yeah,this is something that's huge.
It's me. It's like, okay, here'sthe stuff.
Look at it. Look at all thepolicies that I did this year
with the policy for permanentflexibility for disabilities,
the policies for a for policy60, both policies looked at both
of them and I literally tookthem and I read them all and I
cut them apart like sciencefiction and I had submitted a
(43:25):
paper right before I professortalking about how they should be
done in school. And it is not aneasy job. It's not going be done
in a day or a week, but the morewe are able to talk about issues
and more we're able tounderstand what's happening and
the magnitude of what is goingon, the issue isn't solely going
(43:47):
to become the problem. If thereis real change happening and
people really want it to happen.
That's what it takes. It takesthe fact that you have to really
want to change it. You have toreally want to make the change.
Cause it's always saying, Hey,want to change. But yet when the
process actually makes a changeis a difficult part, part.
(44:08):
Like I'm a guy, myself, I'm aresearch student and I've done
that where I've had to look atit, look at the policy 60, try
and inform somebody about it,try to see the collations
between cheating, disabilities,mental health, and policy 60 to
see where are we going wrong.And the problem is no one wants
to look at that of those issues.So how can we really change it
(44:31):
if no one look at the issues?And that's the problem that
we're having. And that's gonnabe a solution as well.
So if we do those issues, we dowe actually do take a lens and
stop trying to see all thegoodness of a thing and actually
look behind it all, all thecracks. Look at the formation.
Look at how it's broken down. Wecan then fix it from there. But
it's only if we're willing to.
Zion Chinwo (44:55):
Definitely comes from a willingness to be able to
change the systematic nature ofthe higher education system. And
finally, if every universityadmin in the country had to hear
this episode, What is one briefmessage that you'd want them to
take away from your story?
Malka Finkelstein (45:12):
Oh, I wanna say if they could take away
anything from this podcastepisode, I would say it's not
just about equality. It's aboutequity. So what I mean by that
is that they need to understandthat not every neurodivergent
student fits into this kind ofgeneral box of neurodiversity.
(45:32):
Very often, accommodations andother things that are set up to
assist students are verygeneric, very kind of
lackluster, and they're verylike one size fits all. But the
problem is that not everystudent needs that kind of one
size fits all type of mentality.
They need personalizedaccommodation plans, and on top
(45:55):
of that, they just kind of needthings tailored to what they
need rather than what theadministrative thinks they need,
which is why I say it's aboutequity not equality, because we
can all be equal, but ifsomeone's struggling under that
equality, then that's not reallyfair at the end of the day.
Jenna Ignaczak (46:13):
I think it's important to realize that we
don't really know what we don'tknow. It's important to ask
questions to students instead ofjust assuming that they are
being lazy. A lot of studentsare trying their best,
especially in higher education.People are paying to be there.
And they've applied to theseprograms and they do want to
succeed, but oftentimes they'renot given the resources they
(46:35):
need.
So instead of assuming thingsabout the student, I think we
should have a meeting with themand discuss what specifically
they need to help them succeed.
Zion Chinwo (46:43):
Yeah, of course, heavy emphasis on every student
is trying their best. Yeah, Idefinitely agree with that. And
Maddie, what would you like toadd?
Maddie Sardone (46:51):
I'd say it's KQA. This is for sure. This is
your type. Like, at the types.Look at the way your your
student's body and absolutelychange the mindset you have.
I'm looking at your symptoms intotal. Like, what are you doing
to make him more ableist? Whatare you doing that's not helping
it? And what are your beliefs?And how can you change that?
Because, again, I don't reallyhate this complexity. We're not
(47:12):
we're looking at more at moresports and more help. I love the
health and health sports. We'regoing to have more students
feeling absolutely lost. And I'mlucky that I was always fighting
because I was two years old.
I'm lucky that my mom has alwaystold me from the very beginning
that I am disabled, that I'mdifferent, and I always just
(47:34):
treat differently. So I'm luckyI had that experience when I was
a little kid and bullied andsurrendered against and I was
harmed, disabled, or else whoknows where it would end up. But
that's not the problem. How fardo we have to go for one
dangerous for us to realize theproblem? Please look at this
issue.
(47:54):
Look at the abilities,everything around you and don't
be ignorant to it because thereare students who probably have
done have done a whole thing tothemselves just to try to be
good enough. Don't let don't letit go that far.
Hussein Saab (48:11):
Thank you so much for sharing your stories, your
insights, your vision. Yourvoices are very powerful and
very necessary, and we really,really appreciate that you took
the time to join us on thispodcast. It was a very
insightful experience, and I'msure many will take a lot from
(48:32):
it. Thank you once again, Malka,Jenna, and Maddie.
Paul Cruz (48:40):
Thank you for tuning in to this powerful episode of
the Neurodiversity Voicespodcast. We're so grateful to
Jenna, Malka and Maddie fortheir courage, insight and
honesty. We also want to give awarm appreciation to our two
amazing hosts, Hussein and Zion.This conversation was more than
(49:01):
just informative. It was a callto action.
If there's one thing we hope youtake away, it's that equity
matters. Listening to livedexperience matters. And
together, we can createeducational spaces that honor
and uplift every kind of mind.If you enjoyed this
conversation, please rate,share, follow, subscribe, and
(49:25):
leave a review on your favoritepodcast app. If you have any
questions, ideas, or storiesyou'd like to share, please feel
free to contact us or fill outour listener survey form on our
website atwww.neurodiversityvoices.com.
We'd love to hear from you.Until next time, take care, stay
(49:48):
curious, and keep celebratingthe beauty of diverse minds.
Thanks for listening to theNeurodiversity Voices podcast.
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