August 11, 2025 • 57 mins
Guests: Jenna Ignaczak, Malka Finkelstein, and Maddie Sardone — Student leaders from the Neurodiversity Students Association (NDSA) at Toronto Metropolitan University discuss what it truly means to be a neurodivergent student in post-secondary education today.
In this powerful episode of The Neurodiversity Voices, host Paul Cruz hands the mic to Hussein and Zion, two university students from the Venture for Canada entrepreneurship program. They sit down with three student leaders from the Neurodiversity Students Association (NDSA) at Toronto Metropolitan University (TMU) to explore what it really means to create a neurodivergent-friendly campus.
You’ll hear honest, deeply personal stories about masking, accessibility, academic barriers, and the emotional toll of constantly self-advocating. You’ll also hear hopeful visions for a future where equity, not just equality, guides how universities support their students.
Together, they share stories of inclusion, moments of isolation, experiences with ableism, and insights into how universities can better support neurodivergent students. The conversation dives into policy challenges, mental health, masking, equity vs. equality, and the importance of community.
Whether you’re a student, educator, ally, or policymaker, this episode will leave you informed, inspired, and motivated to advocate for a more inclusive future in higher education.
Quotes to Remember:
“It’s not about equality, it’s about equity.” – Malka
“We don’t know what we don’t know. Ask students what they need.” – Jenna
“It’s easier to get rid of us than support us. That’s the problem.” – Maddie
Neurodiversity Students Association, Toronto Metropolitan University
Instagram: @tmu_ndsa
This episode also features a special clip from "Telos: A Neurodiversity Conversation," a youth-led podcast hosted by autistic teen Ares Wren.
Featured Clip: Telos – A Neurodiversity Conversation
We open with a segment from the podcast Telos, in the episode “In Neurodiversity: Why Race, Culture, and Language Matter.” The clip explores:
- How Asian, South Asian, Indigenous, and other BIPOC communities face unique barriers in diagnosis and support
- The role of medical mistrust, language barriers, and cultural stigma
- How masking can be not just a coping strategy, but a cultural expectation
- How systems, racism, and a lack of cultural humility can make being neurodivergent actively dangerous for some
You can listen to this full Telos episode on their feed https://anchor.fm/s/fc565318/podcast/rss
Host & Producer:
- Paul Cruz – Host of The Neurodiversity Voices Podcast
Connect With Us
- Learn more about the Neurodiversity Voices Podcast: www.neurodiversityvoices.com
Grab your The Neurodiversity Voices Podcast Merch Catalogue Items from our Store
https://www.neurodiversityvoices.com/category/all-products
The Neurodiversity Voices Podcast would love your feedback. Post a review to our Google profile.
https://share.google/9RAoxcWhwXu5Pl1xY
Support by joining our Patreon Community: https://www.patreon.com/14218572/join
Be A Neurodiversity Voices+ Subscriber
If you’re listening on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any podcast player you love, please take a moment to rate the show and leave a comment. It makes a huge difference!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paul Cruz (00:02):
Welcome to this special edition of the
Neurodiversity Voices podcast.Today we're featuring a fellow
podcast that we think you willlove. It's called Tell a
neurodiversity conversation.Tell Us is a youth led podcast
hosted by Eris, an autistic teenpassionate about mental health.
Through personal stories andexpert insights, it explores the
(00:26):
challenges, strengths, andidentities of neurodivergent
individuals, and we believe italigns beautifully with the
values and conversations weshare here.
Here's a segment from one oftheir latest episodes called
Diversity in Why Race, Cultureand Language Matter. Be sure to
(00:47):
check them out and subscribe ifyou enjoy what you hear.
Aeris Wren (00:50):
Asian, South Asian and Indigenous communities face
their own unique barriers. Manyimmigrant families struggle with
medical mistrust, languagebarriers, and cultural stigma
around disability. Somecultures, for instance,
associate diagnosis with familyshame or the fear of being
pathologized orinstitutionalized. As a result,
many neurodivergent BIPOC youthmask deeply, internalizing their
(01:15):
pain rather than riskdisability. We've talked about
masking before in this podcast,which is the act to camouflage
autistic or neurodivergenttraits to appear typical.
This is something many of uslearn early. But in some
cultures, masking is more thanjust a coping mechanism. It's an
expected behavior. For instance,in East Asian and Southeast
(01:35):
Asian families, for example,emotional restraint, academic
perfectionism, and conformityare often deeply ingrained. A
child who internalizes theirdistress, scripts social
interactions, and never causestrouble might be praised rather
than recognized as havingautistic traits.
And mental health stigma addsanother layer to that, where
(01:56):
diagnosis is often seen asshameful, unnecessary, or even
dangerous to the family family'simage. For many immigrant and
refugee families, interactingwith the health care system is
already intimidating. So nowwhen we add in racism, scent
discrimination, any lack oftranslated materials or cultural
awareness, it's no wonder thatso many families fall through
(02:17):
the cracks. But beyond that,sometimes the systems that we
live in mean beingneurodivergent can be dangerous.
I mean to share this not toscare anyone, but because
understanding the stakes herematters.
Paul Cruz (02:28):
That was a clip from TELUS, a neurodiversity
conversation. You can listen tothe full episode on their feed,
linked in our show notes. Now,back to our regular episode.
Hello and welcome to theNeurodiversity Voices Podcast.
(02:48):
I'm your host Paul Cruz, and I'mthrilled to have you join us on
this journey of exploration,advocacy and celebration of
neurodiversity.
Together, we'll have meaningfulconversations, share inspiring
stories and challengemisconceptions about
neurodiversity. This podcast isfor everyone, whether you're
(03:10):
neurodivergent yourself, aneducator, parent, or just
someone curious to learn more.Our goal is to amplify voices,
foster understanding, and sparkchange in the way we view and
support neurodiversity. We're soexcited to have you with us as
we celebrate the beauty ofdiverse minds and work toward a
(03:31):
more inclusive future. So sitback, relax, and let's get
started.
Welcome to the NeurodiversityVoices podcast. Today we're
giving the opportunity to twouniversity students, Husain Thab
and Sayang Chinwo, from theVenture for Canada through their
Entrepreneurship Program, whichis the project based program
(03:54):
designed to show post secondarystudents that paid work
experience, network connections,and career clarity don't just
come from a job. They will takeover our position as hoped for
this episode. They will bejoined by three inspiring guests
from the Neurodiversity StudentsAssociation at Toronto
(04:18):
Metropolitan University,formerly Ryerson University.
This public research universityis in the Garden District in
Downtown Toronto, Canada.
Our guests are Jenna Ignachtak,the Co President Malka
Filkenstein from the Events andthe
Hussein Saab (05:03):
to the Neurodiversity Voices podcast,
where we embrace every mind andshare every voice. I'm Hussein.
Zion Chinwo (05:11):
And I'm Zion
Hussein Saab (05:12):
And today, we're diving into the lived
experiences of neurodivergentstudents navigating
postsecondary education.
Zion Chinwo (05:20):
And that's right. So today's episode is all about
inclusion, advocacy, andimagining a future where
neurodivergent students areseen, supported, and empowered
on campus.
Hussein Saab (05:29):
We're excited to welcome our guests from the
Neurodiversity StudentsAssociation at TMU. Let's kick
things off with someintroductions. Could each of you
tell us your name and a littleabout what inspired you to join
the NDSA?
Maddie Sardone (05:43):
Sure. My name's
Jenna Ignaczak (05:44):
Jenna, and I first started university a few
years ago, and I was troublemaking friends on campus, so I
was looking through the schoolwebsite to find a club that I
could join. Saw the NDSA listedthere and I decided to join.
When I first joined, it was verydead and there wasn't a lot of
chatting going on, but slowlythe club picked up and there was
(06:06):
a new president and everythingjust got a lot more active. And
then that's how I kind of joinedthe committee and then became
director of events and
Zion Chinwo (06:14):
now I'm
Jenna Ignaczak (06:14):
the co president.
Malka Filkenstein (06:15):
I'm Malka. I am a upcoming student at TMU, so
I start this September. I wasactually aware of the club
before I became a student. Ihave a friend who's actually a
TMU student who kind ofintroduced me to his friend
group, which just happened to bethe people that are in charge of
the club now. So I was offeredto join the club as a committee
(06:38):
member once I was, like,officially enrolled at TMU.
I was diagnosed with ADHD as anadult, so it's very interesting
for me because I didn't realizeI was ADHD until I was in my
twenties. And so with the club,I kind of feel like I want to be
able to help people who are kindof in this similar boat to me
where they weren't necessarilyaware that they were
(06:58):
neurodivergent as a child, butnow as an adult, everything kind
of just like falls into place.
Zion Chinwo (07:06):
To start us off, we'd love to hear from each of
you. What does the termneurodiversity mean to you
personally?
Jenna Ignaczak (07:11):
To me, neurodiversity is just like a
word that describes howeveryone's brain is different,
kind of encompasses everyone.And then within neurodiversity,
you have both neurotypical andneurodivergent people. So pretty
broad term. I think I like it alot because instead of like
pathologizing people and puttingthem into like this outcasted
(07:33):
box, it kind of just says like,we're all neurodiverse and we
all work differently. And itjust emphasizes that there isn't
one right way to be, andeveryone has certain strengths
and challenges.
Then you can kind of get intothe more specific terms like
neurodivergent. And that is alsoa pretty broad term and it just
kind of like encompasseseveryone that isn't
(07:53):
neurotypical.
Malka Filkenstein (07:54):
So for me, I see neurodiversity as kind of
like what makes you unique. Andkind of forging off what Jenna
said is just, it's a way todescribe, you know, as a whole.
And then, you know, withinneurodiversity, there are people
who are neurodivergent and thenpeople who are neurotypical for
me, like, because I went so longnot knowing was neurodivergent.
(08:16):
Like I always grew up thinkingthat was weird, or like there's
something off with me because Ihad like a weird thing with like
certain sensory things, likesmells or textures, but like, I
didn't consider that I wasneurodivergent. And so when I
got diagnosed as an adult, youstart to kind of really
understand yourself better andjust kind of how people around
(08:36):
you work differently.
And just because you have asensitivity, you know, let's
say, to, like, tags on the backof your clothes, it doesn't
necessarily make you, like,weird or different. It's just
part of, like, the diversity ofbeing human, being alive is just
being different from everyoneelse, and that's fine.
Hussein Saab (08:56):
Let's talk about your campus life. Have you
experienced moments where youfelt truly understood or
supported as a neurodivergentstudent, and what did that look
like?
Jenna Ignaczak (09:06):
My first year in nursing, I actually had a really
amazing professor. She reachedout to me and built a connection
when the semester first started.So how it works at TMU
specifically is that you havelike an accommodation plan
written by the accommodationsoffice, and then you send it to
each individual professor. Andusually I never hear back from
the professors. They just kindof do it on their end and they
don't really like talk to me orcheck-in with me.
(09:27):
But she particularly alwaysemailed me before any tests. She
reminded me to register with thetest center and she just like
frequently checked in and sentme emails to make sure I was
getting my needs met. It wassuper helpful because when you
have to register for every testand every assignment, it
sometimes is like dozens persemester and it can be pretty
difficult to stay on top of it.And another time I had a really
(09:47):
good professor was in adisability studies class and she
was very accommodating. She madesure that everyone had access to
the notes, whether or not youhad that specific accommodation,
which was really neat because itdidn't really make you feel like
outcasted and sometimesadvocating for getting your
needs met can make you feel likeyou don't have dignity or that
it's, it's sometimes can bereally exhausting and scary, but
(10:09):
she made it so that everyonecould have the accommodation and
you didn't really need to likedisclose super personal medical
information to get it.
And it was, that was reallynice.
Malka Filkenstein (10:18):
So I am still a new student at TMU, so I don't
really have the most anecdotesto speak of yet. I'm hoping that
everything will go smoothly. I'mcurrently in the process of
getting registered with ourAccessibilities Office. I could
speak on the club that I feelvery welcomed by the club. When
(10:38):
I was like freshly diagnosedwith ADHD, I didn't really have
a lot of people to talk to whowere also neurodivergent.
And it was a little isolatingbecause I was experiencing a lot
of things, especially when Ibegan medication for the first
time. I would like have no oneto talk to. So being a part of
the clout has been like a verywelcoming experience thus far.
(11:00):
So yeah, I'm hoping to have onlygood things to say when I
actually start classes.
Zion Chinwo (11:08):
On the flip side, we do know that support isn't
always there. What challengeshave either of you faced either
as a neurodivergent student oras an ally when trying to
navigate the school system?
Malka Filkenstein (11:20):
Okay. I actually wrote notes for this
one because I had a lot to say,but I didn't want to ramble. So
for me, as someone with ADHD, itis really hard sometimes for
teachers to understand. I'm notpaying attention because I don't
care. I'm not paying attentionbecause it is very difficult for
me to stay focused at a task athand, especially if you need to
(11:43):
focus on multiple things at onceduring class.
So like writing notes, but thenalso listening to what the
teacher is saying, and then alsomaking sure you're writing down
the stuff that's needed or stuffthat you don't need to know. And
it's even more difficult when,especially if you're like
sensitive to noises like I am,that sounds like someone
sniffling from a cold or likechewing gum sounds like nails on
(12:05):
a chalk board to me. And so itcan be very overstimulating in a
classroom environment sometimes.And a lot of times professors
don't necessarily understandthis, or if they do, they don't
really care because they kind ofhave this mentality of, well,
you're an adult, so you'll justhave to deal with it, which can
be very difficult sometimesbecause I don't want to come off
(12:25):
childish being like, I can't payattention and I don't feel like
trying any harder, but at thesame time, the professors should
also also should understandthat, you know, our people with
neurodivergency, their brainsare wired differently. And so we
respond different to differentstimuli and yeah.
Maddie Sardone (12:42):
No. I agree. Sorry. I'm I'm Maddie.
Personally, I have had a hardtime nagging the system when it
comes to getting my needs metbecause I am labeled as
difficult due to the fact thatmy study is more complex than
the school wants to be.
So therefore I cannot get thehelp needed. And they offer and
(13:06):
therefore my, I've been toldthat just give up and quit
school to no one be therebecause I am too much work to
support is the best way to putit.
Hussein Saab (13:21):
So what do you think your university is getting
right, and where do they stillfall short?
Jenna Ignaczak (13:28):
Our university is they're definitely on the
right track in some ways. Likewe do have a specific
accommodations office set upwhere we have people there who
they're kind of trying to makethe bridge between students and
the professors, and they domostly try to get us
accommodations, but sometimesit's still, there's a large lack
(13:49):
of education with theaccommodations office. We've had
a lot of students havingdifficulties particularly with
them because like, for example,one student had a shutdown and
the accommodations officethought that they were Deaf
because they hadn't like, theyhad no idea how to deal with
that. They are supposed to bethe one resource that is there
specifically for disabledstudents, but it oftentimes does
(14:11):
still fall short. Like Maddiesaid, a lot of times, instead of
advocating for us, they say it'stoo complex or that it would be
easier just to drop out.
Malka Filkenstein (14:19):
So even though I'm a new TMU student, I
went to a college previouslywhere I was involved in the
accommodations related services.And I feel like a lot of schools
have really, really goodgroundwork laid out in terms of
offering accommodations. Theproblem is actually securing
(14:39):
those proper accommodations andthen individualizing them for
every student. And then an evenbigger issue is having the
professors then follow throughwith that accommodations plan. I
feel like also a lot of thepeople that work for the
accommodations aren't asinformed as I would like them to
be on different disabilities andwhat different physical, mental
(15:02):
disabilities look like and howit can represent itself.
Like Jenna said, a student had ashutdown, which can result in
someone not responding to peopletalking to them because they're
just so stuck in that momentright there. And the fact that
they thought the student wasdeaf because they couldn't
recognize the fact that theywere having a moment is very
(15:23):
disappointing. I feel like alsoa lot of times the
accommodations are not thatgreat. For example, TMU note
takers are supposed to be ableto help students take notes.
However, I've heard and havebeen told they're actually
really bad and oftenunderperform or just deliver
nothing at the end of the day.
(15:43):
And I also hear a lot aboutprofessors who just don't care
enough, or they have a lot ofpersonal biases against students
with accommodations. So theyjust won't follow through on the
accommodation plan that astudent has presented them from
the accessibility office. And sothat's why I said like, they
have really good groundwork.Like they have the proper stuff
(16:03):
started to get stuff rolling.The problem is the follow
through and the making sure thatpeople are actually informed to
work for the offices is just notthere.
And it can be really frustratingbecause from a surface level, it
looks like TMU does great intheir accessibility, but then
you see all of the cracks kindof underneath the surface and it
can be kind of disheartening ifyou have more complex needs.
Zion Chinwo (16:29):
Yeah, certainly. So I love what you said, Malka,
about having the foundationalgroundwork in post secondary
education. So if we couldimagine a better future and you
could redesign one part of postsecondary life to be more
inclusive, what would you changefirst?
Maddie Sardone (16:47):
Can I answer this question?
Zion Chinwo (16:49):
Yeah, of course. Go ahead.
Maddie Sardone (16:50):
Okay. Well, I can't stress to in this question
because they were both tiedtogether. From personally, for
me, it's so the last questionthey asked, I agree with Malka a
lot, and I agree to agree withJenna a lot. And they said then
the thing that I would add isthey also aren't like, I feel
like the school is not informedof those with disabilities. They
(17:12):
should be.
And I also like listen tostudents at all. And then that I
think they should definitelywork on going forward is trying
to just maybe getting so they'rehaving educators who actually
understand disabilities andactually knows the leaders
involved and have more people inthe school to be more involved,
(17:35):
to be more understandingdisabilities. That's a course to
take if that's like an extra,like, good class to take
because, like, I don't know highschool. Teachers have to go to
those meetings. And for them,there's other, like, workshops
to learn disabilities.
So I don't see why it's set upfor universities to do the same
when when coming to high schoolscan. That's the biggest issue I
(17:55):
see. Other than myself priormedications my disabilities so
different than others. That Isee people who have so much
disabilities like me who arebrain complex, they just don't
know how to help us. There arenot enough resources out there
where they can understand it.
I've had times already get mymom to email me, can my brain
(18:18):
can't remember who I am. I can'tremember who happens to me or
who I am around me. Sotherefore, my mom has to email
the professors. And at first, Iacted mad. They're lazy because
I wouldn't that I can't emailback them properly.
They amount it for me. So stufflike it's a rough rough it
really rough when it comes tome. I definitely think that's a
(18:40):
huge problem that needs to beworked on. So that's the best
part is maybe a week workshops.Go to workshops, trying to turn
our brain understands them.
That's my take on it.
Jenna Ignaczak (18:49):
I think education, like Maddie said, is
super important. I think also away that the school could do
this is by having maybe likeother students paired up with
other disabled students so thatthey can kind of advocate on
each other's behalf. Because alot of times also when you're
joining these meetings with yourfacilitator, it can be really
(19:09):
exhausting trying to stand upfor yourself and also really
scary. You don't, sometimes youdon't even know what's available
because everything is kind oflike hidden behind all the,
these different pathways thatyou can't really easily access.
So having someone there thatcould be advocating for you on
your behalf, whether it is likeanother student or someone else,
I think that would be reallyhelpful.
And that would probably reallyhelp make postsecondary life
(19:32):
better for a lot of people.
Hussein Saab (19:37):
Looking at the bigger picture now, what does a
truly neurodivergent friendlycampus look like to you?
Malka Filkenstein (19:44):
So this question I was like thinking on
answering because I was having ahard time coming up with an
answer because I'm not reallysure how to phrase this, like in
terms of my needs when it comesto accommodations, I would say
I'm like on the lower end ofneeds. A lot of the stuff that I
(20:07):
look for in accommodations isprobably the simplest ones they
give. And so I wasn't super surewith what a truly inclusive
campus would look like, but Ithink a really good start would
be talking to the voices thatyou need to talk to. So talking
to, like talking toneurodivergent students and just
straight up asking them, whatwould you want to see in our
(20:28):
campus? What are some thingsthat you think would be more
neurodivergent friendly?
Because the best way to kind offigure that out is talk to the
people that need it the most.
Maddie Sardone (20:38):
Yeah. For me, it would definitely be, I think the
best way to make it more a safeplace for neurodivergent
students to go to school or evenbe part of school. We would
definitely be adding coursesonline or having classrooms have
like less having a light thelights being more dim is
(21:02):
definitely helpful. Lighting ina lot of people is very sensory
issues. Having dim lighting andthat does not have the sensory
sounds, that'd be great.
I also definitely do think that,like Malka said, I think you
have to ask the students whatthey need and getting better
resources. Gain note takers toactually not take notes. Get
(21:24):
recordings, record your classeswhile doing them. You don't have
to record the like a videorecording of it, but you get
recording of like them talking.Being able to even get like,
sorry, transcripts.
Those would be many like, thosethings would be a life changer
for a lot of students andthey're actually not doing it.
And I think it's because onceagain, it's the fact that it is
(21:46):
much easier to rid of us than itis to keep us. It lets you just
say, you know what? You'redisabled. Let's just get rid of
you.
And that's what they want to do.They want us to check the door.
And I'm not saying because Idon't want to be I'm being
biased and being mean, butbecause I've seen it. My whole
life, I've seen some studentsand to be told they're not good
enough, just get out of the dooror just don't involve school. We
(22:08):
taught it and it didn't help me.
Like I've had doctors, teachers,professors my whole life telling
me I don't I shouldn't go toschool I'm not gonna go to
school even when went touniversity I was told to drop
out and I was told by doctorthat I should consider well not
doctor medical professional butI consider a maid as an option
(22:28):
due to disability. So there'sbeen different obstacles when
comes to learning.
Jenna Ignaczak (22:34):
I agree with getting, hearing more people and
what everyone needs becauseeveryone's access needs are, can
be so different to me. I thinkit would be more openness on
what resources are available forus and how we can access them.
More, like, clear instructionson that and also more online
(22:55):
classes or, like Maddie said,like, even just the transcripts.
Like, someone recording thelecture and then sharing it
because sometimes it's notalways possible to get in class,
like, whether you're not feelinggood. A lot of people have
different disabilities that theycan't actually show up in
person, but it's not verydifficult to just record the
classes.
I think it's something thatcould be really easily done, but
unfortunately, it's not done.
Hussein Saab (23:19):
We know that peers and professors can play a big
role in shaping your experience.How can fellow students be
better allies to theirneurodivergent peers?
Malka Filkenstein (23:28):
That's really funny because I wrote like two
lines of notes. I wrote that I'mnot really sure how to answer
this because, and I feel likeI'm very lucky. I haven't really
dealt with issues of peoplebeing ableist to me. And I think
it's because for a really longtime, I was masking basically my
(23:50):
entire childhood, I wanna say. Alot of the times, the only
people that I really see, likemaking blatant kind of, I'm not
sure the word I wanna use isblatant, like talking down to
people with disabilities is likeboomers who go like, everyone
these days is autistic.
I feel like a mistake thatpeople often make is thinking
(24:10):
like every autistic or everyADHD person is exactly the same.
When in reality, it's very mucha spectrum of different needs
and stuff like that.
Maddie Sardone (24:21):
Sorry about this question again?
Hussein Saab (24:22):
When it comes to students being better allies to
neurodivergent peers, what wouldyou like to see and how do you
think that could happen?
Maddie Sardone (24:32):
I'd say advocate, like, think the best
thing to do is in yourclassroom, we're gonna see
people talking and they're gonnaand if you say something that's
unfair, think about it. Like,it's not hard to say, hey. I
don't think that's fair or, hey.I don't think that's okay. Like,
as a social work student, we'retold that.
We're told to speak out. We'retold to call it out. And I think
(24:56):
it's really dishearteningbecause I've seen it in my
program where people don't. I'vebeen told many of my peers,
what's wrong with you? Why can'tyou just get it together?
Bad students. And I've seen thestudents who just can't because
of disability age you won't letthem. And it sucks because a
person who is all disabled, I'vehad to step up while having a
(25:16):
seizure, having to help otherstudents out because no one else
will. And the professors don'treally want to or the schools
don't want to help me out. So Ihave to then take a Bonds person
who is support some Bondsstudents who actually is way
higher up than AES.
If you owe them for massive bigthings and they're not helping
(25:38):
you sometimes they don't reallyknow how to help you out because
school is so limited andinstructors. That leaves a lot
students not able to help theirfall students out, which I think
is the problem with theinstitution itself.
Jenna Ignaczak (25:52):
Definitely like surrounding yourself with
neurodivergent people, hearingwhat they have to say about it.
A lot of, I think most peopledon't really realize some of the
things that they're saying areharmful. What Malka said about
how a lot of people say like,Oh, everyone's a little bit
autistic. Or people saying like,Oh yeah, I have trouble focusing
sometimes. I have ADHD.
(26:13):
But kind of using it in more oflike a general sense instead of
like realizing how significantlythese conditions can actually
affect people. And then asMaddie said, like speaking up
about it, when you hear someonesaying things that aren't true
or just making sure you're notperpetuating the harmful
stereotypes that are out thereis really important.
Zion Chinwo (26:33):
Thank you both. And Malka, I think you made a really
good point that you stated yousaw a lot of ableism from older
generation. So what role shouldprofessors or administrators
play in creating inclusivespaces without overburdening
themselves or the system?
Jenna Ignaczak (26:50):
I've had some really good experiences with
professors like before theyemail me before tests, making
sure I sign up and everything.That's super helpful. A lot of
times I think it is difficultbecause professors do have a lot
on their plates. But they doalso have teaching assistants.
And I think the best way was thedisability studies professor who
she had other students, insteadof having to write the weekly
(27:13):
discussion posts, she offered analternative of uploading the
notes for everyone.
And that's a really good way tolike offload some of the work
from themselves and just have itlike the students really don't
mind, especially when they'regiven like an alternative
assignment like that so thatthey don't have extra work. It's
just something different andstill shows that they're
learning the content. Thenhaving the students supporting
(27:33):
other students is reallyeffective and a good way to do
it.
Maddie Sardone (27:36):
Yeah. For me, my professors actually are more
helpful than my facilitatorshave been and the school's been.
Giving, like, differentalternate assignments, getting
longer on exams. So that's beenvery helpful. For me, professors
decide helps me out more and,like, I talk to them about my
(28:00):
study first.
And then just that's it. I thinkthat's the best thing anything
can do and walk into school isto first, like, for them being
in school and with that ortrying to have my teacher is
talk to them. And I it's sad tosay, but you have like, I don't
get the privilege of saying I'mI'm with AES, and that's it. I
have to tell them everythingabout my disability. So time to
(28:21):
every little detail because Iwant because or else I'll be
portrayed as lazy.
He just says all that stuff.Then remembers that you would
start seeing somebody who'sdisabled. And that's or not. So
I have more of the have talkedto best all the time. I'll tell
them I sweat it completely.
(28:43):
And it does suck, but it doesget me this part I need from
them. And then this part I getfrom my upset later.
Malka Filkenstein (28:49):
I think Jenna and Maddie covered it pretty
well. Was, like, giving it areally good thought when you
asked the question, but Ipersonally can't really come up
with anything outside of just ifyou wanna, like, lessen the
burden on the teachers or on, Iguess, the institution itself is
find ways that students cansupport other students. What
(29:12):
Jenna mentioned with studentssharing their notes within each
other, it's really useful. WhenI was in college, we would
always help each other withassignments. So I guess try to
encourage kind of student onstudent assistance and just kind
of looking out for every
Maddie Sardone (29:27):
Quickly to add on to well, like I said, you
can't do that there at TMUwithout breaking policy 60.
That's the whole issue with thestudent student help. It is it's
really limited because the POS60 didn't let you.
Jenna Ignaczak (29:41):
To be fair, I'm not
Malka Filkenstein (29:42):
a student yet. I didn't know this. Okay.
That's kinda kinda not good. TMU
Way to go?
Zion Chinwo (29:52):
Maddie, do you wanna elaborate on what class 60
is?
Maddie Sardone (29:55):
Yeah. So class 60 basically says that you
cannot it's very contradictoryon itself. So it says you can't
turn out to the students, youcan't huddle out projects, you
can't clarification withclarification, you can't talk
about on projects at all timeswithout clarification at all.
And it is, I think, a readingit, I got read it throughout the
years. I'm part of AIA.
(30:17):
There's an academic integrityambassadors, and I'm part of it
for years now. And it is the oneof the most confusing policies
out there, I think. It makes nosense half time because why
can't we ask students for help?Go up here and you know talk to
peers and ask them how this isabout, what is talking about
without having us fear thatwe're gonna get in trouble,
(30:40):
suspended, bailed, paying afine. Like it's just a bunch of
issues that it is terrifying andI limit students to even talk to
one another because we arealways in terror that we're
gonna end up in suspensionbecause there's not much
information out there about howwhat we can do, what we can't do
without being being confused.
(31:01):
That's one issue I had with AASand well, not really. It's with
AIA and AIA and the wholeintegrity office is the fact
that we're not telling what's areal issue. We're not figuring
out how to make it moreunderstandable and simpler.
Hussein Saab (31:17):
Let's talk about accommodations and disclosure.
How do you guys approachconversations about your
neurodivergence in school oreven professional settings? Is
it empowering or stressful oreven both?
Jenna Ignaczak (31:32):
Definitely had a mix of both of those empowering
and stressful. I find it dependson the person you're talking to.
For example, I had a really goodemployer in the past where when
I disclosed it, like they wereactually happy to hear that I
was going to be working withother neurodivergent people. It
was a really good thing to havethe lived experience. And then
(31:52):
I've also been very afraid orscared to share that I need
accommodations when I've heardthis particular person I have to
talk to saying harmful thingsabout disability.
And when that's the case, it isdefinitely scary and stressful,
but it is something usually thatyou have to do. And I find
talking about it with likefriends and family beforehand,
(32:12):
having kind of like a script andknowing what you're going to say
is really helpful, butdefinitely it can be a mix of
both.
Malka Filkenstein (32:19):
So for me personally, I don't have an
issue asking for accommodationsor disclosing that I receive
accommodations. I totallyunderstand why it's stressful
because I've been in that spotbefore where I'm like, am I
gonna lose my job because I askfor accommodations? But then you
have to remember, thankfully welive in Canada where we have
(32:40):
laws that don't allow employersto discriminate against you for
having a disability. And if theydo, it's a crime. I find that
it's better to just, you know,even when it's really stressful
or scary to ask an employer, toask a, you know, educational
(33:01):
institution for accommodations.
You just have to be upfront whatyour needs are, because if they
don't know, they won't be ableto help you or offer you
anything. And additionally, thelack of accommodations can lead
to worse academic orprofessional outcomes. Again, it
is illegal in Canada todiscriminate or deny someone
(33:22):
from accommodations. So you haveevery right personally and
legally to request for it. So,yeah.
Maddie Sardone (33:30):
Like I just said, it is illegal in the
university but promise they doit. Like it's done at
university. We've seen it.
I'm probably above it. Honestly,I haven't had a class this last
year in person and I was notable at all to have notes,
lectures, nothing.
I had on my own self and bymyself the entire class paid for
(33:50):
it, but I had no pressure toteach me it. And I have to fight
for everything. I've had toconstantly sit down and talk to
my professors every singleclass. Hey. This is my
disability.
And I've told them fully what mydisability is. I don't have
chance to, like, oh, I'm part ofAAS, and that's it. I full on
tell them everything that goeson disability and actually what
(34:13):
it is and that sucks by itself.And I said before like that a
job placement that's better.I've had better job placements
than I had with the school.
Jobs like, I've went into notjobs. Like, I went to my
placement, and they were verywelcoming. And I love that how I
(34:36):
had real life experiences tolead and all that stuff. And
that way, it helped me become abetter I bet help me become a
better employee for them in away. So because I knew how it
would like living with somebody,and that does not go away.
That is definitely complicated.It gets worse over time and it's
(34:58):
just difficult I with the school
Zion Chinwo (34:59):
I can imagine. Yeah. And even when it comes to
exams, essays, or evenparticipation methods, in what
ways do you think currentassessment methods such as those
disadvantage neurodivergentstudents? And what alternatives
would you like to see more of orwould you like to see in
general?
Maddie Sardone (35:17):
For me personally, good memory
seriously. I to tend to havetimes where I had seizures and I
remember anything at allhappens. Now I have ADHD which I
think makes me well, panic withADD, what's called ADHD. Now I
have ADHD. I don't rememberthings.
My memory is gone. Basicallylike I don't have my memory is
not there. It's definitely moreit's more of a issue now than
(35:42):
before. So I definitely have anissue taking tests. My memory.
Even those memories you give us,they're really memories at all.
It's just little abbreviations.Oh, request a proposal and make
that short answer. Like, can'tdo that. It's really hard.
And instead, I prefer like atake home exam where you can do
it like with your notes or let'ssay a essay. I'd rather do
(36:07):
something where I can actuallyshow my learning through paper
or something that has no memoryto rely on because memory is not
an issue that I know a lot ofpeople struggle with especially
people with ADHD. It is veryhard to have a test and to not
be able to remember it becauseyour brain can't process it
properly. No one else does.
Jenna Ignaczak (36:28):
When I do tests, I tend to fidget a lot and it
can be particularly not good foronline ones that are proctored
because the camera is like sosmall and you have to be in the
frame the entire time. And whenI do it in person, I do have an
accommodation where I get like afive minute break per hour or
whatever. So I can like walkaround. But when it's online, it
(36:50):
is it always flags it. And thenit sends messages to the
professors and then theprofessors, they don't really
know what to do because it'ssaying that like I was cheating,
but I wasn't.
And it's just like a poorsystem. And I wish that that
system was better specificallyfor online. And in person, have
an accommodation. You can wearheadphones, but the headphones
they have are reallyuncomfortable and you can't
(37:12):
bring your own. So there's like,they have these accommodations
in place, but they're not alwaysvery good, especially online
ones.
Malka Filkenstein (37:19):
I was gonna say, so I am a chronic exam
failure. And it's not because Idon't know the information. It's
I have the same issue as Maddie,where I have ADHD and I have
really bad memory recall,especially when I'm under
stress. I just remember in,like, high school, like, pre
diagnosis, I would, study, like,my butt off before exam, like
(37:41):
every night, two weeks beforethe exam, I'd be studying the
notes over and over and over.And I'm going into the test,
like repeating the answers in myhead.
I open the exam paper and mymind just goes blank. Like
there's just nothing there. Andin my brain, I know I studied
this. I should know theinformation. And so now suddenly
the information is not coming tome anymore.
And I like the idea of a takehome exam or just an alternative
(38:05):
way to show that you havelearned the information without
having to sit through a onehour, two hour test or exam. I
find that a lot of assessmentmethods are really difficult for
neurodivergent students. Likeinherently, they're very like a
neurotypical thing, especiallyif it's like an open ended
question or there's trickquestions. My brain doesn't
process information the same waythat a neurotypical person
(38:27):
would. And so I can get veryconfused by trick questions or
open ended questions.
And I personally, you know, I dobest when the question is just
straight up, like here's theinformation we're looking for.
What is it? I also think likeputting a time limit on exams or
tests can be really stressful. Imentioned that like, especially
under stress, when you know, youonly have two hours to take this
(38:49):
test, you start overthinkingabout all the questions you need
to answer, and it could bereally overwhelming, or you
could completely shut down andjust fail, which is what I did a
lot in high school. So I thinkthe best way to find an
alternative is work with eachstudent individually and find
the like, an alternative methodof how they can prove that they
(39:12):
learned the information.
And, you know, some studentsneed frequent breaks. Some
students need more instruction.Some need just, you know, a
gentle push to answer anotherquestion. Just things that
aren't just plunking a studentdown and saying good luck and
leaving them alone for twohours.
Jenna Ignaczak (39:28):
The role where you have to constantly have your
eyes on your paper and you can'thave like wandering eyes or like
whatever the term is, is alsosuper difficult, especially for
neurodivergent people. When I'mthinking naturally my eyes like
tend to look around at a bunchof different things, but that is
like not allowed. They thinkyou're cheating if your eyes are
like moving around and lookingat different things. That's
(39:48):
really stressful as well.
Hussein Saab (39:52):
So have you guys ever felt like you needed to
mask or suppress parts ofyourself to succeed
academically?
Malka Filkenstein (40:01):
For entirety. When I was in elementary and
high school, I had an IEP and itwas very obvious that I had some
form of learning disability, butthey, you know, my parents, for
whatever reason, didn't want toget me tested. So on that IEP,
which I used for all ofelementary and high school, it
just said undiagnosed learningdisability. And I grew up in a
(40:24):
religious environment. And so Iwas in private school where I
was learning half the educationwas like regular school studies
and the other half was religiousstudies.
And especially when you're in,you know, a small enclosed
environment, most, if not allthe students are neurotypical.
And unfortunately, they don'tknow what to do with students
who aren't. And so I was one ofthose students where they didn't
(40:47):
really know what to do with me.So they just kind of tried their
best. It let me skate bysomehow.
And so I learned really quicklygrowing up that if I just
pretend to understand or justsay whatever the teachers want
to hear in my answers, that'sgood enough because then I won't
get yelled at or I won't getlike told off for not passing.
(41:10):
And it was difficult because Ireally struggled in that
environment. I was very muchlike the worst student. I always
got told, oh, you aren't tryinghard enough, or you're not
living up to your potential. Andit's like, I'm trying in the
environment that you've placedme in, but obviously it's not
working.
I find that traditional teachingmethods don't really work on
(41:33):
people who are neurodivergentbecause by nature, it is a very
neurotypical environment. So itforces a lot of neurodivergent
students to either likecompletely flunk or they really
have to mask and conform to theenvironment, which is a huge
detriment to themselves. And Ijust really wish that there was
more teachers that understoodthat it's not a one size fits
all teaching kind of style. So
Maddie Sardone (41:56):
So for me, I had the opposite opposite
experience. I was diagnosed as akid at age six. Age six, I was
diagnosed with disability. Ihave, like, many disabilities. I
don't know how many I wasdiagnosed.
It was unlearned disabilities,medications. So it means it's up
to, like, disabilities I have.My aunt, the rich psychologist,
me which is what I actually hadbecause they don't tell you.
(42:18):
Unless it's, like, one is onlyto tell you. But we had many of
the ages that had disabilities.
And so my aunt went through andI found out which one I had and
what was. But as well as I alsohave ADHD and I have a treat or
a mutation. We just call them myseizures and all all my other
(42:39):
issues. So basically for me, itwas known as in school. I was
known as demonic.
I was called demonic. I was toldnever gonna pass school. I
thought I had to literally makesure that I was prestigious
perfect. And I always I used tostudy from and this is at the
age of seven years old. I usedto study from the from time I
(43:03):
got home at 3PM.
It happens till like six in themorning. I didn't sleep. In high
school, I was lucky if I gotfive minutes of sleep because I
constantly thought thateducation a privilege and not a
right. Like, I I didn't think Ihad a right to education. I
thought it was I'm I'm lucky I'min school.
I'm lucky I'm I'm in highschool. I'm lucky I get the I'm
in grade school. I had to fightfor everything since the age of
(43:25):
since I was six. If I didn'tokay myself and say hey I want
to learn they would have gave meanswer on tests which happened
frequently. We're not evenanswers I was told an idiot I
was called names and I hadteachers literally tell me I'm
never in my life.
I had a doctor told me that nomatter what I did I'm never
going to get to university. Andhere I am still fighting her
(43:48):
rights, still trying to getthrough school. And I have to
sit here and I've seen it withown sisters and stuff like that.
I've seen it with my with theschool system. I've seen it with
high school, the grade schools,and it's still happening.
That's just so hidden thatunless you're disabled yourself
or unless you really wannalearn, you do no one else is
gonna notice it. No one else isgonna hug you back hug you back
(44:08):
because they don't see it.
Zion Chinwo (44:12):
Jenna, just zooming out and from the perspective of
someone who's an executive teamin this club, how is Gen Z
shifting the narrative aroundneurodiversity and changing what
normal even means?
Jenna Ignaczak (44:27):
That's a really cool question. I think about
that a lot as well. I think it'slike the openness of our
generation and I think maybewe're a lot less judgmental than
previous generations and kind ofworking to get rid of the mold
of like what a person should beand that people should be doing
(44:47):
this. And instead changing it tobe like, can be their authentic
selves and that's okay. And eventhings like this podcast and
there's a lot more organizationspopping up, but people are
sharing their lived experiences,which also encourages others to
share their lived experiencesand kind of creates a community
of people who now can all sharewith one another.
Hussein Saab (45:10):
So I wanted to ask you guys, what gives you hope
for the future of education andaccessibility?
Maddie Sardone (45:18):
The social workers, the social workers, I
can almost say we're a lot ofsocial workers are looking at
how to improve systems. Our jobis to take places to go to
systems and policies and tearapart. We're also to colonize a
lot of it. And that's our joband that's what we do. And
that's what I've been doing.
I am doing it my whole life. Sofor me, it's not, it's not like
(45:42):
a big thing. I'm like, oh, yeah.That's something that's huge.
It's me.
It's like, okay. Here's the Lookat it. Look at all the policies
that I did this year with thepolicy for for disability for
disabilities, the policies for afor policy 60, both policies,
looked at both of them. And Iliterally took them and I read
them all and I have to themapart, like science fiction and
(46:04):
I had submitted a paper rightbefore I professor talking about
how they should run at school.And it is not an easy job.
It's not going be done in a dayor a week, but the more we are
able to talk about issues andmore we're able to understand
what's happening and themagnitude of what is going on,
(46:24):
the issue isn't solely going tobecome a problem. If there is
real change happening and peoplereally want it to happen. That's
what it takes. It takes the factthat you have to really want to
change it. You have to reallywant to make the change.
Cause it's always saying, Hey,I'll make change. But yet when
the process of actually making achange is a difficult part, like
(46:48):
I myself, I'm a research studentand I've done that where I've
had to look at it, look at thepolicy 60, try and inform us
about it, try to see thecollations between cheating,
disabilities, mental health, andpolicy 60 to see where are we
going wrong. And problem is noone wants to look at that those
(47:08):
issues. So how can we reallychange it if no one look at the
issues? And that's the problemthat we're having.
And that's gonna be a solutionas well. So if we do those
issues, we do we actually dotake the lens and stop trying to
see all the goodness of thething and actually look behind
it all, all the cracks. Look atthe formation. Look at how it's
broken down. We can then fix itfrom there.
(47:30):
But it's only if we're willingto.
Zion Chinwo (47:35):
It definitely comes from a willingness to be able to
change the systematic nature ofthe higher education system. And
finally, if every universityadmin in the country had to hear
this episode, What is one briefmessage that you'd want them to
take away from your story?
Malka Filkenstein (47:52):
Oh, I wanna say if they could take away
anything from this podcastepisode, I would say it's not
just about equality. It's aboutequity. So what I mean by that
is that they need to understandthat not every neurodivergent
student fits into this kind ofgeneral box of neurodiversity.
(48:12):
Very often, accommodations andother things that are set up to
assist students are verygeneric, very
Zion Chinwo (48:21):
kind of
Malka Filkenstein (48:21):
life luster, and they're very like one size
fits all. But the problem isthat not every student needs
that kind of one size fits alltype of mentality. They need
personalized accommodationplans, and on top of that, they
just kind of need thingstailored to what they need
rather than what theadministrative thinks they need,
(48:43):
which is why I say it's aboutequity, not equality, because we
could all be equal, but ifsomeone's struggling under that
equality, then that's not reallyfair at the end of the day.
Maddie Sardone (48:53):
So
Jenna Ignaczak (48:53):
I think it's important to realize that we
don't really know what what wedon't don't know, and it's
important to ask questions tostudents instead of just
assuming that they are beinglazy. A lot of students are
trying their best, especially inhigher education. People are
paying to be there, and they'veapplied to these programs and
they do want to succeed, butoftentimes they're not given the
(49:14):
resources they need. So insteadof assuming things about the
student, I think we should havea meeting with them and discuss
what specifically they need tohelp them succeed.
Zion Chinwo (49:23):
Yeah, of course, heavy emphasis on every student
is trying their best. Yeah, Idefinitely agree with that. And
Maddie, for Genentech.
Maddie Sardone (49:30):
I'd say I speak away this this is your shirt and
stereotype. Like, look at yourhips. Look at the way you're
you're sitting slowly andabsolutely change the mindset
around. And look at your sensein total. Like, what you doing
to make him more ableist?
What are you doing that's nothelping it? And what are your
beliefs? And how can you changethat? Because again, I don't
really hate this complexity.We're not we're looking at more
(49:54):
more sports and more help.
I love the health and healthsports. We're going to have more
students feeling absolutelylost. And I'm lucky that I was
always fighting because I wastwo years old. I'm lucky that my
mom has always told me from thevery beginning that I am
disabled, that I'm different, Ialways was treated differently.
(50:14):
So I'm lucky I had thatexperience when I was a little
kid and bullied anddiscriminated against and I was
harmed to disabled or else whoknows where it would end up.
But that's not the problem. Howfar do we have to go for our own
dangerous for us to realize theproblem? Please look at this
issue. Look at the abilities,everything around you and don't
(50:38):
be ignorant to it because thereare students who probably have
done have done upholdingsthemselves just to try to be
good enough. Don't let don't letit get that hard.
Hussein Saab (50:54):
Thank you so much for sharing your stories, your
insights, your vision. Yourvoices are very powerful and
very necessary, and we really,really appreciate that you took
the time to join us on thispodcast. It was a very
insightful experience, and I'msure many will take a lot from
(51:14):
it. Thank you once again, Melka,Jenna, and Maddie.
Maddie Sardone (51:19):
Having us.
Paul Cruz (51:23):
Thank you for tuning in to this powerful episode of
the Neurodiversity Voicespodcast. We're so grateful to
Jenna, Malca, and Maddie fortheir courage, insight, and
honesty. We also want to give awarm appreciation to our two
amazing hosts, Hussein and Zion.This conversation was more than
(51:44):
just informative. It was a callto action.
If there is one thing we hopeyou take away, it's that equity
matters. Listening to livedexperience matters. And
together, we can createeducational spaces that honor
and uplift every kind of mind.If you enjoyed this
conversation, please rate,share, follow, subscribe, and
(52:08):
leave a review on your favoritepodcast app. If you have any
questions, ideas, or storiesyou'd like to share, please feel
free to contact us or fill outour listener survey form on our
website atyou.neurodiversityvoices.com.
We'd love to hear from you.Until next time, take care, stay
(52:30):
curious, and keep celebratingthe beauty of diverse minds.
Thanks for listening to theNeurodiversity Voices podcast.
Welcome to this special edition of the
Neurodiversity Voices podcast.Today we're featuring a fellow
podcast that we think you willlove. It's called Tell a
neurodiversity conversation.Tell Us is a youth led podcast
hosted by Eris, an autistic teenpassionate about mental health.
Through personal stories andexpert insights, it explores the
(00:26):
challenges, strengths, andidentities of neurodivergent
individuals, and we believe italigns beautifully with the
values and conversations weshare here.
Here's a segment from one oftheir latest episodes called
Diversity in Why Race, Cultureand Language Matter. Be sure to
(00:47):
check them out and subscribe ifyou enjoy what you hear.
Aeris Wren (00:50):
Asian, South Asian and Indigenous communities face
their own unique barriers. Manyimmigrant families struggle with
medical mistrust, languagebarriers, and cultural stigma
around disability. Somecultures, for instance,
associate diagnosis with familyshame or the fear of being
pathologized orinstitutionalized. As a result,
many neurodivergent BIPOC youthmask deeply, internalizing their
(01:15):
pain rather than riskdisability. We've talked about
masking before in this podcast,which is the act to camouflage
autistic or neurodivergenttraits to appear typical.
This is something many of uslearn early. But in some
cultures, masking is more thanjust a coping mechanism. It's an
expected behavior. For instance,in East Asian and Southeast
(01:35):
Asian families, for example,emotional restraint, academic
perfectionism, and conformityare often deeply ingrained. A
child who internalizes theirdistress, scripts social
interactions, and never causestrouble might be praised rather
than recognized as havingautistic traits.
And mental health stigma addsanother layer to that, where
(01:56):
diagnosis is often seen asshameful, unnecessary, or even
dangerous to the family family'simage. For many immigrant and
refugee families, interactingwith the health care system is
already intimidating. So nowwhen we add in racism, scent
discrimination, any lack oftranslated materials or cultural
awareness, it's no wonder thatso many families fall through
(02:17):
the cracks. But beyond that,sometimes the systems that we
live in mean beingneurodivergent can be dangerous.
I mean to share this not toscare anyone, but because
understanding the stakes herematters.
Paul Cruz (02:28):
That was a clip from TELUS, a neurodiversity
conversation. You can listen tothe full episode on their feed,
linked in our show notes. Now,back to our regular episode.
Hello and welcome to theNeurodiversity Voices Podcast.
(02:48):
I'm your host Paul Cruz, and I'mthrilled to have you join us on
this journey of exploration,advocacy and celebration of
neurodiversity.
Together, we'll have meaningfulconversations, share inspiring
stories and challengemisconceptions about
neurodiversity. This podcast isfor everyone, whether you're
(03:10):
neurodivergent yourself, aneducator, parent, or just
someone curious to learn more.Our goal is to amplify voices,
foster understanding, and sparkchange in the way we view and
support neurodiversity. We're soexcited to have you with us as
we celebrate the beauty ofdiverse minds and work toward a
(03:31):
more inclusive future. So sitback, relax, and let's get
started.
Welcome to the NeurodiversityVoices podcast. Today we're
giving the opportunity to twouniversity students, Husain Thab
and Sayang Chinwo, from theVenture for Canada through their
Entrepreneurship Program, whichis the project based program
(03:54):
designed to show post secondarystudents that paid work
experience, network connections,and career clarity don't just
come from a job. They will takeover our position as hoped for
this episode. They will bejoined by three inspiring guests
from the Neurodiversity StudentsAssociation at Toronto
(04:18):
Metropolitan University,formerly Ryerson University.
This public research universityis in the Garden District in
Downtown Toronto, Canada.
Our guests are Jenna Ignachtak,the Co President Malka
Filkenstein from the Events andthe
Hussein Saab (05:03):
to the Neurodiversity Voices podcast,
where we embrace every mind andshare every voice. I'm Hussein.
Zion Chinwo (05:11):
And I'm Zion
Hussein Saab (05:12):
And today, we're diving into the lived
experiences of neurodivergentstudents navigating
postsecondary education.
Zion Chinwo (05:20):
And that's right. So today's episode is all about
inclusion, advocacy, andimagining a future where
neurodivergent students areseen, supported, and empowered
on campus.
Hussein Saab (05:29):
We're excited to welcome our guests from the
Neurodiversity StudentsAssociation at TMU. Let's kick
things off with someintroductions. Could each of you
tell us your name and a littleabout what inspired you to join
the NDSA?
Maddie Sardone (05:43):
Sure. My name's
Jenna Ignaczak (05:44):
Jenna, and I first started university a few
years ago, and I was troublemaking friends on campus, so I
was looking through the schoolwebsite to find a club that I
could join. Saw the NDSA listedthere and I decided to join.
When I first joined, it was verydead and there wasn't a lot of
chatting going on, but slowlythe club picked up and there was
(06:06):
a new president and everythingjust got a lot more active. And
then that's how I kind of joinedthe committee and then became
director of events and
Zion Chinwo (06:14):
now I'm
Jenna Ignaczak (06:14):
the co president.
Malka Filkenstein (06:15):
I'm Malka. I am a upcoming student at TMU, so
I start this September. I wasactually aware of the club
before I became a student. Ihave a friend who's actually a
TMU student who kind ofintroduced me to his friend
group, which just happened to bethe people that are in charge of
the club now. So I was offeredto join the club as a committee
(06:38):
member once I was, like,officially enrolled at TMU.
I was diagnosed with ADHD as anadult, so it's very interesting
for me because I didn't realizeI was ADHD until I was in my
twenties. And so with the club,I kind of feel like I want to be
able to help people who are kindof in this similar boat to me
where they weren't necessarilyaware that they were
(06:58):
neurodivergent as a child, butnow as an adult, everything kind
of just like falls into place.
Zion Chinwo (07:06):
To start us off, we'd love to hear from each of
you. What does the termneurodiversity mean to you
personally?
Jenna Ignaczak (07:11):
To me, neurodiversity is just like a
word that describes howeveryone's brain is different,
kind of encompasses everyone.And then within neurodiversity,
you have both neurotypical andneurodivergent people. So pretty
broad term. I think I like it alot because instead of like
pathologizing people and puttingthem into like this outcasted
(07:33):
box, it kind of just says like,we're all neurodiverse and we
all work differently. And itjust emphasizes that there isn't
one right way to be, andeveryone has certain strengths
and challenges.
Then you can kind of get intothe more specific terms like
neurodivergent. And that is alsoa pretty broad term and it just
kind of like encompasseseveryone that isn't
(07:53):
neurotypical.
Malka Filkenstein (07:54):
So for me, I see neurodiversity as kind of
like what makes you unique. Andkind of forging off what Jenna
said is just, it's a way todescribe, you know, as a whole.
And then, you know, withinneurodiversity, there are people
who are neurodivergent and thenpeople who are neurotypical for
me, like, because I went so longnot knowing was neurodivergent.
(08:16):
Like I always grew up thinkingthat was weird, or like there's
something off with me because Ihad like a weird thing with like
certain sensory things, likesmells or textures, but like, I
didn't consider that I wasneurodivergent. And so when I
got diagnosed as an adult, youstart to kind of really
understand yourself better andjust kind of how people around
(08:36):
you work differently.
And just because you have asensitivity, you know, let's
say, to, like, tags on the backof your clothes, it doesn't
necessarily make you, like,weird or different. It's just
part of, like, the diversity ofbeing human, being alive is just
being different from everyoneelse, and that's fine.
Hussein Saab (08:56):
Let's talk about your campus life. Have you
experienced moments where youfelt truly understood or
supported as a neurodivergentstudent, and what did that look
like?
Jenna Ignaczak (09:06):
My first year in nursing, I actually had a really
amazing professor. She reachedout to me and built a connection
when the semester first started.So how it works at TMU
specifically is that you havelike an accommodation plan
written by the accommodationsoffice, and then you send it to
each individual professor. Andusually I never hear back from
the professors. They just kindof do it on their end and they
don't really like talk to me orcheck-in with me.
(09:27):
But she particularly alwaysemailed me before any tests. She
reminded me to register with thetest center and she just like
frequently checked in and sentme emails to make sure I was
getting my needs met. It wassuper helpful because when you
have to register for every testand every assignment, it
sometimes is like dozens persemester and it can be pretty
difficult to stay on top of it.And another time I had a really
(09:47):
good professor was in adisability studies class and she
was very accommodating. She madesure that everyone had access to
the notes, whether or not youhad that specific accommodation,
which was really neat because itdidn't really make you feel like
outcasted and sometimesadvocating for getting your
needs met can make you feel likeyou don't have dignity or that
it's, it's sometimes can bereally exhausting and scary, but
(10:09):
she made it so that everyonecould have the accommodation and
you didn't really need to likedisclose super personal medical
information to get it.
And it was, that was reallynice.
Malka Filkenstein (10:18):
So I am still a new student at TMU, so I don't
really have the most anecdotesto speak of yet. I'm hoping that
everything will go smoothly. I'mcurrently in the process of
getting registered with ourAccessibilities Office. I could
speak on the club that I feelvery welcomed by the club. When
(10:38):
I was like freshly diagnosedwith ADHD, I didn't really have
a lot of people to talk to whowere also neurodivergent.
And it was a little isolatingbecause I was experiencing a lot
of things, especially when Ibegan medication for the first
time. I would like have no oneto talk to. So being a part of
the clout has been like a verywelcoming experience thus far.
(11:00):
So yeah, I'm hoping to have onlygood things to say when I
actually start classes.
Zion Chinwo (11:08):
On the flip side, we do know that support isn't
always there. What challengeshave either of you faced either
as a neurodivergent student oras an ally when trying to
navigate the school system?
Malka Filkenstein (11:20):
Okay. I actually wrote notes for this
one because I had a lot to say,but I didn't want to ramble. So
for me, as someone with ADHD, itis really hard sometimes for
teachers to understand. I'm notpaying attention because I don't
care. I'm not paying attentionbecause it is very difficult for
me to stay focused at a task athand, especially if you need to
(11:43):
focus on multiple things at onceduring class.
So like writing notes, but thenalso listening to what the
teacher is saying, and then alsomaking sure you're writing down
the stuff that's needed or stuffthat you don't need to know. And
it's even more difficult when,especially if you're like
sensitive to noises like I am,that sounds like someone
sniffling from a cold or likechewing gum sounds like nails on
(12:05):
a chalk board to me. And so itcan be very overstimulating in a
classroom environment sometimes.And a lot of times professors
don't necessarily understandthis, or if they do, they don't
really care because they kind ofhave this mentality of, well,
you're an adult, so you'll justhave to deal with it, which can
be very difficult sometimesbecause I don't want to come off
(12:25):
childish being like, I can't payattention and I don't feel like
trying any harder, but at thesame time, the professors should
also also should understandthat, you know, our people with
neurodivergency, their brainsare wired differently. And so we
respond different to differentstimuli and yeah.
Maddie Sardone (12:42):
No. I agree. Sorry. I'm I'm Maddie.
Personally, I have had a hardtime nagging the system when it
comes to getting my needs metbecause I am labeled as
difficult due to the fact thatmy study is more complex than
the school wants to be.
So therefore I cannot get thehelp needed. And they offer and
(13:06):
therefore my, I've been toldthat just give up and quit
school to no one be therebecause I am too much work to
support is the best way to putit.
Hussein Saab (13:21):
So what do you think your university is getting
right, and where do they stillfall short?
Jenna Ignaczak (13:28):
Our university is they're definitely on the
right track in some ways. Likewe do have a specific
accommodations office set upwhere we have people there who
they're kind of trying to makethe bridge between students and
the professors, and they domostly try to get us
accommodations, but sometimesit's still, there's a large lack
(13:49):
of education with theaccommodations office. We've had
a lot of students havingdifficulties particularly with
them because like, for example,one student had a shutdown and
the accommodations officethought that they were Deaf
because they hadn't like, theyhad no idea how to deal with
that. They are supposed to bethe one resource that is there
specifically for disabledstudents, but it oftentimes does
(14:11):
still fall short. Like Maddiesaid, a lot of times, instead of
advocating for us, they say it'stoo complex or that it would be
easier just to drop out.
Malka Filkenstein (14:19):
So even though I'm a new TMU student, I
went to a college previouslywhere I was involved in the
accommodations related services.And I feel like a lot of schools
have really, really goodgroundwork laid out in terms of
offering accommodations. Theproblem is actually securing
(14:39):
those proper accommodations andthen individualizing them for
every student. And then an evenbigger issue is having the
professors then follow throughwith that accommodations plan. I
feel like also a lot of thepeople that work for the
accommodations aren't asinformed as I would like them to
be on different disabilities andwhat different physical, mental
(15:02):
disabilities look like and howit can represent itself.
Like Jenna said, a student had ashutdown, which can result in
someone not responding to peopletalking to them because they're
just so stuck in that momentright there. And the fact that
they thought the student wasdeaf because they couldn't
recognize the fact that theywere having a moment is very
(15:23):
disappointing. I feel like alsoa lot of times the
accommodations are not thatgreat. For example, TMU note
takers are supposed to be ableto help students take notes.
However, I've heard and havebeen told they're actually
really bad and oftenunderperform or just deliver
nothing at the end of the day.
(15:43):
And I also hear a lot aboutprofessors who just don't care
enough, or they have a lot ofpersonal biases against students
with accommodations. So theyjust won't follow through on the
accommodation plan that astudent has presented them from
the accessibility office. And sothat's why I said like, they
have really good groundwork.Like they have the proper stuff
(16:03):
started to get stuff rolling.The problem is the follow
through and the making sure thatpeople are actually informed to
work for the offices is just notthere.
And it can be really frustratingbecause from a surface level, it
looks like TMU does great intheir accessibility, but then
you see all of the cracks kindof underneath the surface and it
can be kind of disheartening ifyou have more complex needs.
Zion Chinwo (16:29):
Yeah, certainly. So I love what you said, Malka,
about having the foundationalgroundwork in post secondary
education. So if we couldimagine a better future and you
could redesign one part of postsecondary life to be more
inclusive, what would you changefirst?
Maddie Sardone (16:47):
Can I answer this question?
Zion Chinwo (16:49):
Yeah, of course. Go ahead.
Maddie Sardone (16:50):
Okay. Well, I can't stress to in this question
because they were both tiedtogether. From personally, for
me, it's so the last questionthey asked, I agree with Malka a
lot, and I agree to agree withJenna a lot. And they said then
the thing that I would add isthey also aren't like, I feel
like the school is not informedof those with disabilities. They
(17:12):
should be.
And I also like listen tostudents at all. And then that I
think they should definitelywork on going forward is trying
to just maybe getting so they'rehaving educators who actually
understand disabilities andactually knows the leaders
involved and have more people inthe school to be more involved,
(17:35):
to be more understandingdisabilities. That's a course to
take if that's like an extra,like, good class to take
because, like, I don't know highschool. Teachers have to go to
those meetings. And for them,there's other, like, workshops
to learn disabilities.
So I don't see why it's set upfor universities to do the same
when when coming to high schoolscan. That's the biggest issue I
(17:55):
see. Other than myself priormedications my disabilities so
different than others. That Isee people who have so much
disabilities like me who arebrain complex, they just don't
know how to help us. There arenot enough resources out there
where they can understand it.
I've had times already get mymom to email me, can my brain
(18:18):
can't remember who I am. I can'tremember who happens to me or
who I am around me. Sotherefore, my mom has to email
the professors. And at first, Iacted mad. They're lazy because
I wouldn't that I can't emailback them properly.
They amount it for me. So stufflike it's a rough rough it
really rough when it comes tome. I definitely think that's a
(18:40):
huge problem that needs to beworked on. So that's the best
part is maybe a week workshops.Go to workshops, trying to turn
our brain understands them.
That's my take on it.
Jenna Ignaczak (18:49):
I think education, like Maddie said, is
super important. I think also away that the school could do
this is by having maybe likeother students paired up with
other disabled students so thatthey can kind of advocate on
each other's behalf. Because alot of times also when you're
joining these meetings with yourfacilitator, it can be really
(19:09):
exhausting trying to stand upfor yourself and also really
scary. You don't, sometimes youdon't even know what's available
because everything is kind oflike hidden behind all the,
these different pathways thatyou can't really easily access.
So having someone there thatcould be advocating for you on
your behalf, whether it is likeanother student or someone else,
I think that would be reallyhelpful.
And that would probably reallyhelp make postsecondary life
(19:32):
better for a lot of people.
Hussein Saab (19:37):
Looking at the bigger picture now, what does a
truly neurodivergent friendlycampus look like to you?
Malka Filkenstein (19:44):
So this question I was like thinking on
answering because I was having ahard time coming up with an
answer because I'm not reallysure how to phrase this, like in
terms of my needs when it comesto accommodations, I would say
I'm like on the lower end ofneeds. A lot of the stuff that I
(20:07):
look for in accommodations isprobably the simplest ones they
give. And so I wasn't super surewith what a truly inclusive
campus would look like, but Ithink a really good start would
be talking to the voices thatyou need to talk to. So talking
to, like talking toneurodivergent students and just
straight up asking them, whatwould you want to see in our
(20:28):
campus? What are some thingsthat you think would be more
neurodivergent friendly?
Because the best way to kind offigure that out is talk to the
people that need it the most.
Maddie Sardone (20:38):
Yeah. For me, it would definitely be, I think the
best way to make it more a safeplace for neurodivergent
students to go to school or evenbe part of school. We would
definitely be adding coursesonline or having classrooms have
like less having a light thelights being more dim is
(21:02):
definitely helpful. Lighting ina lot of people is very sensory
issues. Having dim lighting andthat does not have the sensory
sounds, that'd be great.
I also definitely do think that,like Malka said, I think you
have to ask the students whatthey need and getting better
resources. Gain note takers toactually not take notes. Get
(21:24):
recordings, record your classeswhile doing them. You don't have
to record the like a videorecording of it, but you get
recording of like them talking.Being able to even get like,
sorry, transcripts.
Those would be many like, thosethings would be a life changer
for a lot of students andthey're actually not doing it.
And I think it's because onceagain, it's the fact that it is
(21:46):
much easier to rid of us than itis to keep us. It lets you just
say, you know what? You'redisabled. Let's just get rid of
you.
And that's what they want to do.They want us to check the door.
And I'm not saying because Idon't want to be I'm being
biased and being mean, butbecause I've seen it. My whole
life, I've seen some studentsand to be told they're not good
enough, just get out of the dooror just don't involve school. We
(22:08):
taught it and it didn't help me.
Like I've had doctors, teachers,professors my whole life telling
me I don't I shouldn't go toschool I'm not gonna go to
school even when went touniversity I was told to drop
out and I was told by doctorthat I should consider well not
doctor medical professional butI consider a maid as an option
(22:28):
due to disability. So there'sbeen different obstacles when
comes to learning.
Jenna Ignaczak (22:34):
I agree with getting, hearing more people and
what everyone needs becauseeveryone's access needs are, can
be so different to me. I thinkit would be more openness on
what resources are available forus and how we can access them.
More, like, clear instructionson that and also more online
(22:55):
classes or, like Maddie said,like, even just the transcripts.
Like, someone recording thelecture and then sharing it
because sometimes it's notalways possible to get in class,
like, whether you're not feelinggood. A lot of people have
different disabilities that theycan't actually show up in
person, but it's not verydifficult to just record the
classes.
I think it's something thatcould be really easily done, but
unfortunately, it's not done.
Hussein Saab (23:19):
We know that peers and professors can play a big
role in shaping your experience.How can fellow students be
better allies to theirneurodivergent peers?
Malka Filkenstein (23:28):
That's really funny because I wrote like two
lines of notes. I wrote that I'mnot really sure how to answer
this because, and I feel likeI'm very lucky. I haven't really
dealt with issues of peoplebeing ableist to me. And I think
it's because for a really longtime, I was masking basically my
(23:50):
entire childhood, I wanna say. Alot of the times, the only
people that I really see, likemaking blatant kind of, I'm not
sure the word I wanna use isblatant, like talking down to
people with disabilities is likeboomers who go like, everyone
these days is autistic.
I feel like a mistake thatpeople often make is thinking
(24:10):
like every autistic or everyADHD person is exactly the same.
When in reality, it's very mucha spectrum of different needs
and stuff like that.
Maddie Sardone (24:21):
Sorry about this question again?
Hussein Saab (24:22):
When it comes to students being better allies to
neurodivergent peers, what wouldyou like to see and how do you
think that could happen?
Maddie Sardone (24:32):
I'd say advocate, like, think the best
thing to do is in yourclassroom, we're gonna see
people talking and they're gonnaand if you say something that's
unfair, think about it. Like,it's not hard to say, hey. I
don't think that's fair or, hey.I don't think that's okay. Like,
as a social work student, we'retold that.
We're told to speak out. We'retold to call it out. And I think
(24:56):
it's really dishearteningbecause I've seen it in my
program where people don't. I'vebeen told many of my peers,
what's wrong with you? Why can'tyou just get it together?
Bad students. And I've seen thestudents who just can't because
of disability age you won't letthem. And it sucks because a
person who is all disabled, I'vehad to step up while having a
(25:16):
seizure, having to help otherstudents out because no one else
will. And the professors don'treally want to or the schools
don't want to help me out. So Ihave to then take a Bonds person
who is support some Bondsstudents who actually is way
higher up than AES.
If you owe them for massive bigthings and they're not helping
(25:38):
you sometimes they don't reallyknow how to help you out because
school is so limited andinstructors. That leaves a lot
students not able to help theirfall students out, which I think
is the problem with theinstitution itself.
Jenna Ignaczak (25:52):
Definitely like surrounding yourself with
neurodivergent people, hearingwhat they have to say about it.
A lot of, I think most peopledon't really realize some of the
things that they're saying areharmful. What Malka said about
how a lot of people say like,Oh, everyone's a little bit
autistic. Or people saying like,Oh yeah, I have trouble focusing
sometimes. I have ADHD.
(26:13):
But kind of using it in more oflike a general sense instead of
like realizing how significantlythese conditions can actually
affect people. And then asMaddie said, like speaking up
about it, when you hear someonesaying things that aren't true
or just making sure you're notperpetuating the harmful
stereotypes that are out thereis really important.
Zion Chinwo (26:33):
Thank you both. And Malka, I think you made a really
good point that you stated yousaw a lot of ableism from older
generation. So what role shouldprofessors or administrators
play in creating inclusivespaces without overburdening
themselves or the system?
Jenna Ignaczak (26:50):
I've had some really good experiences with
professors like before theyemail me before tests, making
sure I sign up and everything.That's super helpful. A lot of
times I think it is difficultbecause professors do have a lot
on their plates. But they doalso have teaching assistants.
And I think the best way was thedisability studies professor who
she had other students, insteadof having to write the weekly
(27:13):
discussion posts, she offered analternative of uploading the
notes for everyone.
And that's a really good way tolike offload some of the work
from themselves and just have itlike the students really don't
mind, especially when they'regiven like an alternative
assignment like that so thatthey don't have extra work. It's
just something different andstill shows that they're
learning the content. Thenhaving the students supporting
(27:33):
other students is reallyeffective and a good way to do
it.
Maddie Sardone (27:36):
Yeah. For me, my professors actually are more
helpful than my facilitatorshave been and the school's been.
Giving, like, differentalternate assignments, getting
longer on exams. So that's beenvery helpful. For me, professors
decide helps me out more and,like, I talk to them about my
(28:00):
study first.
And then just that's it. I thinkthat's the best thing anything
can do and walk into school isto first, like, for them being
in school and with that ortrying to have my teacher is
talk to them. And I it's sad tosay, but you have like, I don't
get the privilege of saying I'mI'm with AES, and that's it. I
have to tell them everythingabout my disability. So time to
(28:21):
every little detail because Iwant because or else I'll be
portrayed as lazy.
He just says all that stuff.Then remembers that you would
start seeing somebody who'sdisabled. And that's or not. So
I have more of the have talkedto best all the time. I'll tell
them I sweat it completely.
(28:43):
And it does suck, but it doesget me this part I need from
them. And then this part I getfrom my upset later.
Malka Filkenstein (28:49):
I think Jenna and Maddie covered it pretty
well. Was, like, giving it areally good thought when you
asked the question, but Ipersonally can't really come up
with anything outside of just ifyou wanna, like, lessen the
burden on the teachers or on, Iguess, the institution itself is
find ways that students cansupport other students. What
(29:12):
Jenna mentioned with studentssharing their notes within each
other, it's really useful. WhenI was in college, we would
always help each other withassignments. So I guess try to
encourage kind of student onstudent assistance and just kind
of looking out for every
Maddie Sardone (29:27):
Quickly to add on to well, like I said, you
can't do that there at TMUwithout breaking policy 60.
That's the whole issue with thestudent student help. It is it's
really limited because the POS60 didn't let you.
Jenna Ignaczak (29:41):
To be fair, I'm not
Malka Filkenstein (29:42):
a student yet. I didn't know this. Okay.
That's kinda kinda not good. TMU
Way to go?
Zion Chinwo (29:52):
Maddie, do you wanna elaborate on what class 60
is?
Maddie Sardone (29:55):
Yeah. So class 60 basically says that you
cannot it's very contradictoryon itself. So it says you can't
turn out to the students, youcan't huddle out projects, you
can't clarification withclarification, you can't talk
about on projects at all timeswithout clarification at all.
And it is, I think, a readingit, I got read it throughout the
years. I'm part of AIA.
(30:17):
There's an academic integrityambassadors, and I'm part of it
for years now. And it is the oneof the most confusing policies
out there, I think. It makes nosense half time because why
can't we ask students for help?Go up here and you know talk to
peers and ask them how this isabout, what is talking about
without having us fear thatwe're gonna get in trouble,
(30:40):
suspended, bailed, paying afine. Like it's just a bunch of
issues that it is terrifying andI limit students to even talk to
one another because we arealways in terror that we're
gonna end up in suspensionbecause there's not much
information out there about howwhat we can do, what we can't do
without being being confused.
(31:01):
That's one issue I had with AASand well, not really. It's with
AIA and AIA and the wholeintegrity office is the fact
that we're not telling what's areal issue. We're not figuring
out how to make it moreunderstandable and simpler.
Hussein Saab (31:17):
Let's talk about accommodations and disclosure.
How do you guys approachconversations about your
neurodivergence in school oreven professional settings? Is
it empowering or stressful oreven both?
Jenna Ignaczak (31:32):
Definitely had a mix of both of those empowering
and stressful. I find it dependson the person you're talking to.
For example, I had a really goodemployer in the past where when
I disclosed it, like they wereactually happy to hear that I
was going to be working withother neurodivergent people. It
was a really good thing to havethe lived experience. And then
(31:52):
I've also been very afraid orscared to share that I need
accommodations when I've heardthis particular person I have to
talk to saying harmful thingsabout disability.
And when that's the case, it isdefinitely scary and stressful,
but it is something usually thatyou have to do. And I find
talking about it with likefriends and family beforehand,
(32:12):
having kind of like a script andknowing what you're going to say
is really helpful, butdefinitely it can be a mix of
both.
Malka Filkenstein (32:19):
So for me personally, I don't have an
issue asking for accommodationsor disclosing that I receive
accommodations. I totallyunderstand why it's stressful
because I've been in that spotbefore where I'm like, am I
gonna lose my job because I askfor accommodations? But then you
have to remember, thankfully welive in Canada where we have
(32:40):
laws that don't allow employersto discriminate against you for
having a disability. And if theydo, it's a crime. I find that
it's better to just, you know,even when it's really stressful
or scary to ask an employer, toask a, you know, educational
(33:01):
institution for accommodations.
You just have to be upfront whatyour needs are, because if they
don't know, they won't be ableto help you or offer you
anything. And additionally, thelack of accommodations can lead
to worse academic orprofessional outcomes. Again, it
is illegal in Canada todiscriminate or deny someone
(33:22):
from accommodations. So you haveevery right personally and
legally to request for it. So,yeah.
Maddie Sardone (33:30):
Like I just said, it is illegal in the
university but promise they doit. Like it's done at
university. We've seen it.
I'm probably above it. Honestly,I haven't had a class this last
year in person and I was notable at all to have notes,
lectures, nothing.
I had on my own self and bymyself the entire class paid for
(33:50):
it, but I had no pressure toteach me it. And I have to fight
for everything. I've had toconstantly sit down and talk to
my professors every singleclass. Hey. This is my
disability.
And I've told them fully what mydisability is. I don't have
chance to, like, oh, I'm part ofAAS, and that's it. I full on
tell them everything that goeson disability and actually what
(34:13):
it is and that sucks by itself.And I said before like that a
job placement that's better.I've had better job placements
than I had with the school.
Jobs like, I've went into notjobs. Like, I went to my
placement, and they were verywelcoming. And I love that how I
(34:36):
had real life experiences tolead and all that stuff. And
that way, it helped me become abetter I bet help me become a
better employee for them in away. So because I knew how it
would like living with somebody,and that does not go away.
That is definitely complicated.It gets worse over time and it's
(34:58):
just difficult I with the school
Zion Chinwo (34:59):
I can imagine. Yeah. And even when it comes to
exams, essays, or evenparticipation methods, in what
ways do you think currentassessment methods such as those
disadvantage neurodivergentstudents? And what alternatives
would you like to see more of orwould you like to see in
general?
Maddie Sardone (35:17):
For me personally, good memory
seriously. I to tend to havetimes where I had seizures and I
remember anything at allhappens. Now I have ADHD which I
think makes me well, panic withADD, what's called ADHD. Now I
have ADHD. I don't rememberthings.
My memory is gone. Basicallylike I don't have my memory is
not there. It's definitely moreit's more of a issue now than
(35:42):
before. So I definitely have anissue taking tests. My memory.
Even those memories you give us,they're really memories at all.
It's just little abbreviations.Oh, request a proposal and make
that short answer. Like, can'tdo that. It's really hard.
And instead, I prefer like atake home exam where you can do
it like with your notes or let'ssay a essay. I'd rather do
(36:07):
something where I can actuallyshow my learning through paper
or something that has no memoryto rely on because memory is not
an issue that I know a lot ofpeople struggle with especially
people with ADHD. It is veryhard to have a test and to not
be able to remember it becauseyour brain can't process it
properly. No one else does.
Jenna Ignaczak (36:28):
When I do tests, I tend to fidget a lot and it
can be particularly not good foronline ones that are proctored
because the camera is like sosmall and you have to be in the
frame the entire time. And whenI do it in person, I do have an
accommodation where I get like afive minute break per hour or
whatever. So I can like walkaround. But when it's online, it
(36:50):
is it always flags it. And thenit sends messages to the
professors and then theprofessors, they don't really
know what to do because it'ssaying that like I was cheating,
but I wasn't.
And it's just like a poorsystem. And I wish that that
system was better specificallyfor online. And in person, have
an accommodation. You can wearheadphones, but the headphones
they have are reallyuncomfortable and you can't
(37:12):
bring your own. So there's like,they have these accommodations
in place, but they're not alwaysvery good, especially online
ones.
Malka Filkenstein (37:19):
I was gonna say, so I am a chronic exam
failure. And it's not because Idon't know the information. It's
I have the same issue as Maddie,where I have ADHD and I have
really bad memory recall,especially when I'm under
stress. I just remember in,like, high school, like, pre
diagnosis, I would, study, like,my butt off before exam, like
(37:41):
every night, two weeks beforethe exam, I'd be studying the
notes over and over and over.And I'm going into the test,
like repeating the answers in myhead.
I open the exam paper and mymind just goes blank. Like
there's just nothing there. Andin my brain, I know I studied
this. I should know theinformation. And so now suddenly
the information is not coming tome anymore.
And I like the idea of a takehome exam or just an alternative
(38:05):
way to show that you havelearned the information without
having to sit through a onehour, two hour test or exam. I
find that a lot of assessmentmethods are really difficult for
neurodivergent students. Likeinherently, they're very like a
neurotypical thing, especiallyif it's like an open ended
question or there's trickquestions. My brain doesn't
process information the same waythat a neurotypical person
(38:27):
would. And so I can get veryconfused by trick questions or
open ended questions.
And I personally, you know, I dobest when the question is just
straight up, like here's theinformation we're looking for.
What is it? I also think likeputting a time limit on exams or
tests can be really stressful. Imentioned that like, especially
under stress, when you know, youonly have two hours to take this
(38:49):
test, you start overthinkingabout all the questions you need
to answer, and it could bereally overwhelming, or you
could completely shut down andjust fail, which is what I did a
lot in high school. So I thinkthe best way to find an
alternative is work with eachstudent individually and find
the like, an alternative methodof how they can prove that they
(39:12):
learned the information.
And, you know, some studentsneed frequent breaks. Some
students need more instruction.Some need just, you know, a
gentle push to answer anotherquestion. Just things that
aren't just plunking a studentdown and saying good luck and
leaving them alone for twohours.
Jenna Ignaczak (39:28):
The role where you have to constantly have your
eyes on your paper and you can'thave like wandering eyes or like
whatever the term is, is alsosuper difficult, especially for
neurodivergent people. When I'mthinking naturally my eyes like
tend to look around at a bunchof different things, but that is
like not allowed. They thinkyou're cheating if your eyes are
like moving around and lookingat different things. That's
(39:48):
really stressful as well.
Hussein Saab (39:52):
So have you guys ever felt like you needed to
mask or suppress parts ofyourself to succeed
academically?
Malka Filkenstein (40:01):
For entirety. When I was in elementary and
high school, I had an IEP and itwas very obvious that I had some
form of learning disability, butthey, you know, my parents, for
whatever reason, didn't want toget me tested. So on that IEP,
which I used for all ofelementary and high school, it
just said undiagnosed learningdisability. And I grew up in a
(40:24):
religious environment. And so Iwas in private school where I
was learning half the educationwas like regular school studies
and the other half was religiousstudies.
And especially when you're in,you know, a small enclosed
environment, most, if not allthe students are neurotypical.
And unfortunately, they don'tknow what to do with students
who aren't. And so I was one ofthose students where they didn't
(40:47):
really know what to do with me.So they just kind of tried their
best. It let me skate bysomehow.
And so I learned really quicklygrowing up that if I just
pretend to understand or justsay whatever the teachers want
to hear in my answers, that'sgood enough because then I won't
get yelled at or I won't getlike told off for not passing.
(41:10):
And it was difficult because Ireally struggled in that
environment. I was very muchlike the worst student. I always
got told, oh, you aren't tryinghard enough, or you're not
living up to your potential. Andit's like, I'm trying in the
environment that you've placedme in, but obviously it's not
working.
I find that traditional teachingmethods don't really work on
(41:33):
people who are neurodivergentbecause by nature, it is a very
neurotypical environment. So itforces a lot of neurodivergent
students to either likecompletely flunk or they really
have to mask and conform to theenvironment, which is a huge
detriment to themselves. And Ijust really wish that there was
more teachers that understoodthat it's not a one size fits
all teaching kind of style. So
Maddie Sardone (41:56):
So for me, I had the opposite opposite
experience. I was diagnosed as akid at age six. Age six, I was
diagnosed with disability. Ihave, like, many disabilities. I
don't know how many I wasdiagnosed.
It was unlearned disabilities,medications. So it means it's up
to, like, disabilities I have.My aunt, the rich psychologist,
me which is what I actually hadbecause they don't tell you.
(42:18):
Unless it's, like, one is onlyto tell you. But we had many of
the ages that had disabilities.
And so my aunt went through andI found out which one I had and
what was. But as well as I alsohave ADHD and I have a treat or
a mutation. We just call them myseizures and all all my other
(42:39):
issues. So basically for me, itwas known as in school. I was
known as demonic.
I was called demonic. I was toldnever gonna pass school. I
thought I had to literally makesure that I was prestigious
perfect. And I always I used tostudy from and this is at the
age of seven years old. I usedto study from the from time I
(43:03):
got home at 3PM.
It happens till like six in themorning. I didn't sleep. In high
school, I was lucky if I gotfive minutes of sleep because I
constantly thought thateducation a privilege and not a
right. Like, I I didn't think Ihad a right to education. I
thought it was I'm I'm lucky I'min school.
I'm lucky I'm I'm in highschool. I'm lucky I get the I'm
in grade school. I had to fightfor everything since the age of
(43:25):
since I was six. If I didn'tokay myself and say hey I want
to learn they would have gave meanswer on tests which happened
frequently. We're not evenanswers I was told an idiot I
was called names and I hadteachers literally tell me I'm
never in my life.
I had a doctor told me that nomatter what I did I'm never
going to get to university. Andhere I am still fighting her
(43:48):
rights, still trying to getthrough school. And I have to
sit here and I've seen it withown sisters and stuff like that.
I've seen it with my with theschool system. I've seen it with
high school, the grade schools,and it's still happening.
That's just so hidden thatunless you're disabled yourself
or unless you really wannalearn, you do no one else is
gonna notice it. No one else isgonna hug you back hug you back
(44:08):
because they don't see it.
Zion Chinwo (44:12):
Jenna, just zooming out and from the perspective of
someone who's an executive teamin this club, how is Gen Z
shifting the narrative aroundneurodiversity and changing what
normal even means?
Jenna Ignaczak (44:27):
That's a really cool question. I think about
that a lot as well. I think it'slike the openness of our
generation and I think maybewe're a lot less judgmental than
previous generations and kind ofworking to get rid of the mold
of like what a person should beand that people should be doing
(44:47):
this. And instead changing it tobe like, can be their authentic
selves and that's okay. And eventhings like this podcast and
there's a lot more organizationspopping up, but people are
sharing their lived experiences,which also encourages others to
share their lived experiencesand kind of creates a community
of people who now can all sharewith one another.
Hussein Saab (45:10):
So I wanted to ask you guys, what gives you hope
for the future of education andaccessibility?
Maddie Sardone (45:18):
The social workers, the social workers, I
can almost say we're a lot ofsocial workers are looking at
how to improve systems. Our jobis to take places to go to
systems and policies and tearapart. We're also to colonize a
lot of it. And that's our joband that's what we do. And
that's what I've been doing.
I am doing it my whole life. Sofor me, it's not, it's not like
(45:42):
a big thing. I'm like, oh, yeah.That's something that's huge.
It's me.
It's like, okay. Here's the Lookat it. Look at all the policies
that I did this year with thepolicy for for disability for
disabilities, the policies for afor policy 60, both policies,
looked at both of them. And Iliterally took them and I read
them all and I have to themapart, like science fiction and
(46:04):
I had submitted a paper rightbefore I professor talking about
how they should run at school.And it is not an easy job.
It's not going be done in a dayor a week, but the more we are
able to talk about issues andmore we're able to understand
what's happening and themagnitude of what is going on,
(46:24):
the issue isn't solely going tobecome a problem. If there is
real change happening and peoplereally want it to happen. That's
what it takes. It takes the factthat you have to really want to
change it. You have to reallywant to make the change.
Cause it's always saying, Hey,I'll make change. But yet when
the process of actually making achange is a difficult part, like
(46:48):
I myself, I'm a research studentand I've done that where I've
had to look at it, look at thepolicy 60, try and inform us
about it, try to see thecollations between cheating,
disabilities, mental health, andpolicy 60 to see where are we
going wrong. And problem is noone wants to look at that those
(47:08):
issues. So how can we reallychange it if no one look at the
issues? And that's the problemthat we're having.
And that's gonna be a solutionas well. So if we do those
issues, we do we actually dotake the lens and stop trying to
see all the goodness of thething and actually look behind
it all, all the cracks. Look atthe formation. Look at how it's
broken down. We can then fix itfrom there.
(47:30):
But it's only if we're willingto.
Zion Chinwo (47:35):
It definitely comes from a willingness to be able to
change the systematic nature ofthe higher education system. And
finally, if every universityadmin in the country had to hear
this episode, What is one briefmessage that you'd want them to
take away from your story?
Malka Filkenstein (47:52):
Oh, I wanna say if they could take away
anything from this podcastepisode, I would say it's not
just about equality. It's aboutequity. So what I mean by that
is that they need to understandthat not every neurodivergent
student fits into this kind ofgeneral box of neurodiversity.
(48:12):
Very often, accommodations andother things that are set up to
assist students are verygeneric, very
Zion Chinwo (48:21):
kind of
Malka Filkenstein (48:21):
life luster, and they're very like one size
fits all. But the problem isthat not every student needs
that kind of one size fits alltype of mentality. They need
personalized accommodationplans, and on top of that, they
just kind of need thingstailored to what they need
rather than what theadministrative thinks they need,
(48:43):
which is why I say it's aboutequity, not equality, because we
could all be equal, but ifsomeone's struggling under that
equality, then that's not reallyfair at the end of the day.
Maddie Sardone (48:53):
So
Jenna Ignaczak (48:53):
I think it's important to realize that we
don't really know what what wedon't don't know, and it's
important to ask questions tostudents instead of just
assuming that they are beinglazy. A lot of students are
trying their best, especially inhigher education. People are
paying to be there, and they'veapplied to these programs and
they do want to succeed, butoftentimes they're not given the
(49:14):
resources they need. So insteadof assuming things about the
student, I think we should havea meeting with them and discuss
what specifically they need tohelp them succeed.
Zion Chinwo (49:23):
Yeah, of course, heavy emphasis on every student
is trying their best. Yeah, Idefinitely agree with that. And
Maddie, for Genentech.
Maddie Sardone (49:30):
I'd say I speak away this this is your shirt and
stereotype. Like, look at yourhips. Look at the way you're
you're sitting slowly andabsolutely change the mindset
around. And look at your sensein total. Like, what you doing
to make him more ableist?
What are you doing that's nothelping it? And what are your
beliefs? And how can you changethat? Because again, I don't
really hate this complexity.We're not we're looking at more
(49:54):
more sports and more help.
I love the health and healthsports. We're going to have more
students feeling absolutelylost. And I'm lucky that I was
always fighting because I wastwo years old. I'm lucky that my
mom has always told me from thevery beginning that I am
disabled, that I'm different, Ialways was treated differently.
(50:14):
So I'm lucky I had thatexperience when I was a little
kid and bullied anddiscriminated against and I was
harmed to disabled or else whoknows where it would end up.
But that's not the problem. Howfar do we have to go for our own
dangerous for us to realize theproblem? Please look at this
issue. Look at the abilities,everything around you and don't
(50:38):
be ignorant to it because thereare students who probably have
done have done upholdingsthemselves just to try to be
good enough. Don't let don't letit get that hard.
Hussein Saab (50:54):
Thank you so much for sharing your stories, your
insights, your vision. Yourvoices are very powerful and
very necessary, and we really,really appreciate that you took
the time to join us on thispodcast. It was a very
insightful experience, and I'msure many will take a lot from
(51:14):
it. Thank you once again, Melka,Jenna, and Maddie.
Maddie Sardone (51:19):
Having us.
Paul Cruz (51:23):
Thank you for tuning in to this powerful episode of
the Neurodiversity Voicespodcast. We're so grateful to
Jenna, Malca, and Maddie fortheir courage, insight, and
honesty. We also want to give awarm appreciation to our two
amazing hosts, Hussein and Zion.This conversation was more than
(51:44):
just informative. It was a callto action.
If there is one thing we hopeyou take away, it's that equity
matters. Listening to livedexperience matters. And
together, we can createeducational spaces that honor
and uplift every kind of mind.If you enjoyed this
conversation, please rate,share, follow, subscribe, and
(52:08):
leave a review on your favoritepodcast app. If you have any
questions, ideas, or storiesyou'd like to share, please feel
free to contact us or fill outour listener survey form on our
website atyou.neurodiversityvoices.com.
We'd love to hear from you.Until next time, take care, stay
(52:30):
curious, and keep celebratingthe beauty of diverse minds.
Thanks for listening to theNeurodiversity Voices podcast.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.