January 1, 2026 • 38 mins
Guest: Jeff Brown. What does it truly mean to see a child — not just their behaviour, but the brain and experiences underneath it?
In this episode of The Neurodiversity Voices Podcast, host Paul Cruz is joined by educator and author Jeff Brown, a high school teacher with over 25 years of experience and lived experience as an autistic and ADHD adult. Together, they explore how slowing down our perception can transform classrooms, homes, and lives.
Jeff shares why behaviour is so often misunderstood, how neurodivergent students are mislabeled as “lazy” or “defiant,” and what becomes possible when adults choose curiosity over judgment. From sensory overload and rejection sensitivity to discipline systems and long-term self-worth, this conversation reframes advocacy as something that begins with how we see people — long before paperwork or policy.
This episode is especially meaningful for:
- Neurodivergent youth who’ve felt misunderstood
- Parents and caregivers seeking a more compassionate lens
- Educators looking to build inclusive, supportive classrooms
When people feel seen, they feel safer. And when they feel safe, they can grow.
Purchase the book mentioned in this episode through Amazon, "Seeing People: What Every Parent, Teacher, Therapist, Manager, and Person Needs to See About Everyone As Taught by an Autistic ADHD Teacher" - Author Jeff Brown.
As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases. If you choose to buy through our affiliation links, we may earn a small commission at no extra cost to you. Thank you for supporting the podcast!
For Amazon US and International Buyers (except Canada)
1. Seeing People: What Every Parent, Teacher, Therapist, Manager, and Person Needs to See About Everyone as Taught by an Autistic ADHD Teacher - https://amzn.to/3MDRfwG
For Amazon Canada Buyers:
1. Seeing People: What Every Parent, Teacher, Therapist, Manager, and Person Needs to See About Everyone as Taught by an Autistic ADHD Teacher - https://amzn.to/48Spgk9
Website: https://www.jeffbrownsclassroom.com/books/seeing-people
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeff Brown (00:00):
All kids want to do well. Every kid. So most schools
(00:04):
and teachers think that I justneed to incentivize them to do
well, and if they want to dowell, they'll do fine. But every
kid wants to do well already. Toget them to want to do well,
What you do is need to create anenvironment for them in which
they can do well, because it'snot about when you're in an
environment that workscontinually against your brain,
when it works continuallyagainst the way it works, then
you have to try three, fourtimes harder than everybody else
(00:28):
just to get the same amount.
And when you're telling everykid to give you a 100%, some
kids have to give twice thatjust to get the same work done.
What's going happen is youcreate an environment where you
burn kids out. You burn the ADHDkids out, you burn the autistic
kids out because they have towork harder just to keep up.
Paul Cruz (00:47):
Hello, and welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices
podcast. I'm your host, Paul,and we're thrilled to have you
join us on this journey ofexploration, advocacy and
celebration of neurodiversity.Together, we'll have meaningful
conversations, share inspiringstories, and challenge
(01:07):
misconceptions aboutneurodiversity. This podcast is
for everyone, whether you'reneurodivergent yourself, an
educator, a parent, or justsomeone curious to learn more.
Our goal is to amplify voices,foster understanding, and spark
change in the way we view andsupport neurodiversity.
(01:28):
We're so excited to have you aswe celebrate the beauty of
diverse minds and work toward amore inclusive future. So sit
back, relax, and let's getstarted. Welcome to the
Neurodiversity Voices Podcast.Before we get started, I want
you to know this is a safespace. Today's episode is about
(01:50):
what it means to really seepeople, especially kids and
teens whose brains workdifferently.
Sometimes adults focus onbehavior without understanding
what's underneath. Conversation,we're slowing things down. We're
talking about understanding,kindness, and what can change
(02:12):
when someone finally feels seen.If any part of this sounds like
you, you're welcome here. Jeff,thank you so much for being
here.
I really appreciate the way youtalk about understanding people,
not by fixing them, but bylearning how to truly see them.
(02:34):
I'm grateful you're joining usfor this conversation today.
Jeff Brown (02:37):
Thanks, Paul. I'm excited to be here and to be
Paul Cruz (02:39):
able to talk with you. Jeff, you used the phrase
learning to see peoplethroughout your work. When you
say that, what does seeingactually mean in real life,
especially for students whosebrains work differently?
Jeff Brown (02:59):
Yeah. Well, I'm a I'm a high school teacher. I've
been teaching for twenty fiveyears. And, I teach classes like
child development andrelationships and psychology and
stuff like that. And like a lotof, autistic people like myself,
I have kind of a specialinterest in people understanding
them and seeing them and, beingable to understand their
(03:22):
behavior and why people are theway they are.
And so as a teacher, I've beenreally just trying to understand
my students, understand wherethey come from, what they think,
the way their brain works, andto be able to see them. I found
that when I can truly see them,then I have more power to work
(03:42):
with them and influence them andteach them and guide them. But
that comes after seeing them.
Paul Cruz (03:51):
Because so often what adults think they're seeing is
behavior. In schools and homes,behavior is often judged before
it's understood. What changeswhen an adult slows down long
enough to see what's underneaththe behavior?
Jeff Brown (04:10):
Yeah. So the first thing I think in order to
understand behavior, in order tounderstand how kids act and what
they do, we have to be able tounderstand their brain. We kind
of have to see their brain. I'vegot a couple chapters about that
in my book about seeing theirbrain. Once you understand how
their brain works, how it'sdifferent, the ways that it's
acting, the more you canunderstand what's going on here.
(04:33):
One of the most important thingsto be able to understand other
people in general is justknowing the basic truth that
brains don't all work the same.Now, most people think that,
other people's brains workbasically the same way. And so
they judge their behavior basedon what they themselves would do
without really understanding thedifferences behind that. So like
(04:55):
for instance, if I have a kidwith ADHD who is having trouble
staying focused, I remember thatit's a brain that has dopamine
regulation differences andthey're not choosing to be that
way, they're not choosing to bedifficult, that's just what the
way their brain works, then whatI do is instead of blaming the
(05:18):
child, I try and look for waysthat work best to work with
their brain because most, Ithink, teachers and parents and
adults assume that kids are justchoosing to be difficult when
that's typically not the case.
Paul Cruz (05:34):
That slowing down sounds personal, but it also
sounds bigger than that. Yeah.Why do you believe learning how
to see people isn't just apersonal skill, but actually a
form of advocacy?
Jeff Brown (05:49):
Well, think in order to advocate for a child and in
order to advocate for a group,in order to advocate for people
who are vulnerable, I think youtruly have to see them and
understand for where they are. Itold my students just this
morning actually, I taught acouple classes this morning
including my child developmentclass, I said the more I
(06:10):
understand child development,more I understand the way the
brain works, the more Iunderstand the way humans
develop, the less judgmental Ibecome because I no longer judge
bad behaviors as choices, I nolonger judge people who come
from disadvantaged backgroundsin a different way. I once had a
student tell me that if theygrew up a bad environment, then
(06:31):
they would be the one to riseabove it. They would be the one
to raise themselves up by theirbootstraps, so to speak, as the
thing goes. And I told them thatif you grew up in that
environment, you would not bethe same person as you are right
now.
That you would have a differentbrain, that your reactions would
be different. Your brain wouldbe more based on survival than
(06:51):
on trying to do all the thingsthat you do now. Same thing with
kids who are neurodivergent orautistic or ADHD is that we
think that they're making thesechoices when oftentimes this is
a brain that's wired differentlyand we can't advocate for that.
We can't create an environmentfor that unless we know how
(07:12):
their brain works. And once weunderstand and see them, then
you can create an environmentthat works much better for them,
which is kind of what I try anddo in my classes is I also teach
teachers different things aswell.
And I tell them that, hey,anything you can do to make the
environment better forneurodivergent kids is going to
help all your kids because youcreate an accommodating
(07:35):
classroom. It's going to helpevery kid and not just the ones
because a lot of teachers arelike, I don't have time to give
everybody individualaccommodations. I'm like, well,
you don't need to do that. Youjust create an accommodating
environment that works forneurodivergent brains, it's
going to help neurotypicalbrains also. So that's kind of
what I mean by so back to yourquestion on seeing is important
(07:58):
for advocacy is that once youcan see then you can know what
their needs are.
Too often times people areadvocating for people without
really knowing what their needsare, speaking for them, speaking
above them, and silencing theminstead of actually seeing them
and what they need.
Paul Cruz (08:14):
When people aren't truly seen, systems tend to step
in. From your twenty five yearsteaching relationships, what are
the most common waysneurodivergent students are
misunderstood by well meaningadults?
Jeff Brown (08:31):
Well, I think, one of them again is that they I
have a lot of ADHD and autistickids who tell me that they were
hated by teachers as they grewup, that teachers did not
understand them. They thoughtthey were just trying to be
difficult, that, they were likeworking against them or trying
to sabotage their classeswithout really seeing that these
(08:52):
kids are just trying to gettheir brains to work in an
environment that wasn't made forthem. And so I think that's the
first one is just assuming thatthese kids are making choices
that they don't want to do well.But I've discovered there's
another book about this calledLost at School which is that all
kids want to do well. Every kid,so most schools and teachers
(09:15):
think that I just need toincentivize them to do well and
if they wanna do well they'll dofine.
But every kid wants to do wellalready. Have to get them to
want to do well. What you do isneed to create an environment
for them in which they can dowell because it's not about when
you're in an environment thatworks continually against your
brain, when it works continuallyagainst the way it works, then
(09:36):
you have to try three, fourtimes harder than everybody else
just to get the same amount. Andwhen you're telling every kid to
give your a 100%, some kids haveto give twice that just to get
the same work done. What's goingto happen is you create an
environment where you burn kidsout.
You burn the ADHD kids out, youburn the autistic kids out
because they have to work harderjust to keep up. So I guess the
(10:01):
biggest ways in which I seeteachers and parents and other
adults misread or misunderstandor miss see these kids as they
think that they just need to tryharder that they, and the
problem is they're alreadytrying harder. These kids are
not lazy. A lot of teachersthink that ADHD kids are lazy or
that autistic kids just don'tget it. And that's not true.
(10:22):
They're actually oftentimes fromwhat I've noticed, a lot of
these kids are actually workingway harder than their peers and
not often getting the sameresults. And when teachers don't
acknowledge that, they're stillwhen you're working twice as
hard as everyone else and theteacher tells you, why are you
so lazy? Then that'sdemoralizing. You feel like, why
(10:43):
am I even trying at all? And sosome of these kids, by the time
they get to my classes and whenthey're 15, 16, 17, that's the
ages I teach, that they're just,like, giving up.
Because like why try if even ifI do try, I get told that I'm
lazy anyways. So I think that'sone of the biggest things.
Autistic and ADHD kids areoftentimes told they're lazy or
that they don't get it or theyjust wonder why they don't just
(11:06):
learn the same way everybodyelse does.
Paul Cruz (11:11):
And those misunderstandings often get
labeled. How often do you seeoverwhelm, sensory overload, or
anxiety misread as defiance,disrespect, or a lack of effort?
Jeff Brown (11:27):
I think that happens all the time. I think if a kid
is in an environment that worksagainst their brain, they're
constantly in a state ofoverwhelm and sensory overload.
And when a teacher tries to comein and push a little bit harder
while they're already in thatstate, then you're gonna have
sometimes you have a kid shutdown or sometimes you have a kid
(11:50):
pushed back and so then teachersmay interpret that as well
they're being lazy or they'repushing back and so they're
being defiant And so then whathappens is you have teachers and
kids in a power struggle and themore you're going to push on a
meltdown, on a shutdown or on anADHD kid with RSD rejection
sensitive dysphoria, the moreyou're going to have them shut
(12:13):
down. And so then they thinkthat's even more defiant and
that unfortunately ends too manytimes with kids getting sent to
the discipline office, whichdoesn't help anything at all. So
in my twenty five years ofteaching, I've only sent a kid
one time to the disciplineoffice and that was because he
said something horrible toanother student that I had to
(12:34):
deal with, that was the only wayI could deal with it.
But every other time I found ifyou understand what the kid is
going on, if I have a kid who'sreally pushing back, then I'll
just pull him outside and say,hey, is there's, are you okay?
What's going on here? This isn'tlike what you're normally like.
Is there something happeningthat you need to tell me about?
And every time I've got thekids, we'll just say, yes, Mr.
(12:56):
Brown. I had a rough morningthis morning. I had a fight with
my dad or didn't sleep at alllast night or any of those
things and then I'll say, I'm sosorry you're feeling that way.
If we could work together onthis then then we can find a way
forward. And there has not beena single time where that hasn't
worked.
So not a single time if I had tosend a kid to that discipline
(13:18):
office because first of all wetry and create an environment
where they feel more comfortableso it's less likely to happen
but it doesn't make it zero likethere's still some kids are
still going to have that troubleWhen they do have that trouble,
when they know they havesomebody they can turn to
instead of somebody who's tryingto force them, then what happens
is that they build trust in youand they know you're on their
(13:38):
side. So you're kinda like acoach rather than a
disciplinarian who's trying tostop them.
Paul Cruz (13:46):
That kind of mislabeling doesn't just affect
discipline. It affects how ayoung person sees themselves.
What impact does the thatmisinterpretation have on a
child's nervous system identityand long term sense of self
(14:06):
worth?
Jeff Brown (14:06):
Yeah. That's one of the big ones is unfortunately,
again, by the time they get tomy classes, they've already had
several teachers by that time.Some of them who might have been
good, but also they remember alot of the ones who
misunderstood them. And so bythat time, a lot of them, like
this one I talked about in myclass this morning, is that
quote that if you, I can'tremember the quote, but anyways
(14:27):
that different kids learndifferent ways and so they're
gonna think they're stupid ifthey learn in a different way.
And so what happens is by thetime they get to me, they feel
like they don't know anything.
Don't, they feel like they'restupid and they don't understand
that they're actually highlyintelligent. They're just their
brain requires differentcircumstances for it to work the
(14:47):
way they need to. So ADHD kidsin particular, something called
rejection sensitive dysphoria inwhich every time there is one
study that said by doctorMichael Jelenick that said that
kids ADHD kids are given 20,000criticisms by the time they're
aged 10 in school. And RSD makesit feel so much worse every time
you're criticized. So they justshut down.
(15:11):
ADHD kids or autistic kids areoftentimes asked why they're not
getting it and their sensoryissues might go higher and so
they might shut down more. Andadd to that, that there's a
whole bunch of these kids,autistic and ADHD who are
undiagnosed, who don't knowtheir ADHD and don't know
they're autistic like myself,who's just recently diagnosed
(15:34):
with both of those. Teachersthink that they're just being
lazy also because they don'thave diagnosis and all those
kinds things. So these kids justwonder why everything's so much
harder for them. And they thinkthey're just not as smart.
They think they just can't workas hard as everyone else. And so
maybe they must be lazy orinternalizing. That's where we
get what we call internalizedableism oftentimes as well. So
Paul Cruz (16:01):
This is where your work becomes really practical.
If a teacher or parent islistening right now and
realizing they may have beenmisreading a child, where should
they start relearning how to seethat child?
Jeff Brown (16:16):
Well, this is kind of why I wrote my book, Seeing
People About That, is to kind oftake people through that process
of being able to read deeper.And it's not just about autistic
and ADHD, but it's all kids. Andthey need to start by seeing
that their brain worksdifferently to understand, maybe
do some research and educationon how different brains work.
And that's kind of when Istarted to, I have a daughter
(16:40):
who was diagnosed autistic. Ihave another daughter who's
diagnosed ADHD.
I've got other kids who I'm notsure what's going on exactly,
there's different things goingon with all of them. And so we
started doing just tons ofresearch when we found out about
autism and ADHD and things likethat. And just started to
realize that their brains that Ihad misread them. I had misread,
(17:04):
the ways that things were goingon. My daughter, Emeline has
ADHD.
She's always been aperfectionist. She's always been
a high achiever, which is verycommon for ADHD girls. And I was
always trying to get her to justback off a little bit so she
wouldn't burn herself out. Ididn't realize that her ADHD and
her RSD in particular were werethe things driving that. And so
(17:27):
when we, I realized that shewasn't choosing that, it's just
the way your brain worked.
I did some research on that. Ifound a workbook online that
helps her with her RSD. Iprinted that offer and started
helping her work with that. Shefound a therapist who worked
well with that and would helpher with her RSD and some
(17:47):
neurodivergent affirmingtherapists and things like that.
Same thing with my daughterGeneva, she was actually not
diagnosed until she was 14.
And we had misread a lot of whatwas going on with her. So a lot
of times we're like, well,what's going on? Why can't you
do some of the same things yourbrothers and sisters are doing?
And then when we realized, okay,okay, we need to take a step
back and realize things justdon't work the same. And then
(18:10):
she was a lot less frustrated.
We were a lot less frustrated.The more we educated ourselves
and both my process with my ownkids and my students at school
helped me realize that I need tostop judging kids. And there's a
phrase that I think about a lot,is also in the book as well, is
be curious, not judgmental. ThatI need to be curious about why
(18:30):
if a kid is struggling at schoolor one of my own kids, I need to
be curious about what is causingthat, what is what's happening
there, and then really look intothat. And then it becomes more
of a puzzle.
And some of the of the difficultkids at school that a lot of
teachers get annoyed by, I findthem interesting and
fascinating. And I actually tendto enjoy them. And that helps me
(18:53):
get a better response from them.But they know that I'm trying to
understand them and that createsa much better dynamic between me
and them so that I can help themkind of with their struggles a
little bit. But I would sayparents and teachers do more
research on the way differentbrain works, try and understand
that, see what works indifferent autistic and different
(19:14):
ADHD because different thingswork.
So you gotta do some trial anderror also. But really, they're
not choosing to be difficult.There are things that they need
a little extra help in.
Paul Cruz (19:25):
But slowing down perception isn't easy in fast
paced environments. You talkabout slowing down perception.
What does that actually looklike in a busy classroom or home
without losing structure orexpectations?
Jeff Brown (19:41):
Well, I think the main thing is kind of like what
I said, be curious, notjudgmental, is that our brains
automatically have this desireto jump to a conclusion that we
want to figure things out. Wewant to know things. And
sometimes that's called theillusion of knowledge is that we
think we figured somebody outway before we really have. That
we think that our brain wants tomake that judgment as soon as
(20:05):
possible. And so we have to stopour brain from doing that.
We have to want to know more andmore about them because the
second you decide you knowsomebody is the second that you
stop learning about them. Sothat's the first thing is just
stopping your judgment. Like,once you think you understand a
kid at school, once you thinkyou understand your own
students, just realize, hey, Iknow something about them.
(20:26):
There's still a lot more tolearn and still be curious as
you're doing that. Now, you canstill have structure because
structure does not require ajudgmental environment.
Structure just requires thingslike boundaries and rules and
things that people can count onand things that aren't based on
(20:47):
judgments and getting angry orgetting upset. You can be firm
and have boundaries and allthose things without actually
using disappointment or anger orfear as a way to control. Those
things tend to make thingsworse, with neurodivergent kids,
I think.
Paul Cruz (21:11):
And sometimes slowing down means resisting the urge to
fix things right away. How doadults learn to sit with
uncertainty instead of rushingto control or correct behavior?
Jeff Brown (21:25):
Well, that's one of the big things we talk about in
my relationships class, and isthe need to control. In my
relationships class, we talkabout that every relationship
has power. You have like in StarWars, I use that as an analogy,
and I'm actually writing asecond book on that right now.
But power is the light side andthe dark side. And the dark side
comes from a need to control.
(21:46):
And that typically is made up ofthree different things. Fear as
a way to control people out offear. Second one is conditional
love, which is that I will giveyou acceptance, but only after
you do what I want you to. Andthe third one is, manipulation,
which uses fear, obligation, andguilt as a way to control
somebody. Now once you give upthe need to control, then you're
(22:09):
gonna go for more an influencein teaching and coaching type of
base.
Like for instance, that I don'tneed to make my own kid fit into
a particular box. I don't needto make my students at school be
exactly the way I need them to.What I'm gonna do is take them
from where they're at, which Iaccept them at that point, but
I'm gonna lead them to a betterplace from there. I think it's
(22:32):
when parents feel that they needtheir kids to be a particular
way, when teachers feel that,oftentimes that comes from a
place of thinking that theirbehavior reflects on themselves.
And so I need them to act just away that I can be proud.
And we forget what the kid needsand more about what we need as
parents and teachers. So givingup that, there's there's a great
(22:56):
scene in Kung Fu Panda, one ofmy favorite movies. Ashram
Tortoise after Master Ugwei.Because Master Ugwei teaches an
important lesson that you haveto give up the illusion of
control. And then once you can,you can lead and guide and train
Po much like growing a the peachtree.
Okay. Once we stop seeing kidsas something that need to be
(23:19):
controlled and somebody that wejust need to nurture, then that
that moves us away from a fearbased, a control based, more to
a I'm gonna help you besomething better than who you
are. And that's more based ontrust. That kids will more
likely follow you because theylike where you're leading them.
(23:41):
They know that you're gonna leadthem to a better life.
And so typically, don't have toforce my kids or or my students
at school because they knowmister Brown's teaching good
things and I wanna learn that.So it's out of a desire rather
than fear.
Paul Cruz (23:58):
Love to ground this in a real moment. Can you share
an example of a time when trulyseeing a student rather than
reacting to their behaviorchanged the direction of their
life?
Jeff Brown (24:12):
Yeah, so when I first started teaching, I think
I was a bit more judgmental thanI was now and more needing to
control and a little bit lessunderstanding of how these
things work. But I had onestudent who's kind of always in
the back who was alwayschallenging me and questioning
everything I said, and I thoughtthat he was just trying to make
(24:33):
things, know, I just alwaysthought it made things
difficult. I was getting moreand more frustrated. And so I
just spent a little bit of timetrying to figure out and
understand, well, why is hedoing this? What's going on
here?
And so once I did that, Irealized that he has an
underlying different way ofthinking and processing things.
So what I did is I made a lessonbased on something that he would
(24:55):
understand in a different waythat is aimed at something he
needs to learn. So I made thatlesson for the whole class, but
I think he realized it wassomething about him also. And I
didn't it wasn't a disciplinething. It wasn't a criticism
thing.
It was just teaching this newway of thinking about things.
And it changed the way hereacted from from pretty much
there on. Later, actually, whenI was getting my master's
(25:16):
degree, he was actually gettinghis bachelor's degree at the
same college and we ended up ina class together. It was
interesting. And he once toldme, he said, mister Brown,
you're the only teacher who tooktime to to understand what I was
saying and get to know me.
Everybody else just thought Iwas being annoying. But you're
the only teacher. And so, yeah,just taking the time to see and
understand can make a differencefrom there on, actually.
Paul Cruz (25:41):
What did that moment teach you about the power an
adult holds?
Jeff Brown (25:46):
Well, I realized that well, first of all, as a
teacher, I think a lot of us arepretty aware of how much power
we can have. And for a lot of usit keeps us up and it's
something to realize that whatwe do can have an impact on a
child for good or for negativefor many years to come. And so I
just always try and keep that inmind that in some ways, just as
(26:09):
an encouraging word, stopping tounderstand. He's not the only
kid who told me that I wassomebody who stopped to
understand them and it made allthe difference. And so I found
that most of the things thatwould change a child's life were
less about my classes, what theytaught, and more about the
connections that I had withthem.
That if they understood that Isaw them and understood them,
(26:34):
then that would change how theyfelt about themselves. And if
that would change how they feltabout themselves, then they
would, that would change theirwhole future. And so it made a
difference.
Paul Cruz (26:46):
Seeing isn't just emotional, it shapes systems.
How does the way adults see achild influence things like
discipline, IEPs, access tosupport, and long term
opportunity?
Jeff Brown (27:01):
Well, I think too much of our structures are based
on a rewards and punishmentstype of way to see things. When
when I when I say like, I I wastalking about this with my
students this morning also.We're doing a review over the
whole semester. And I what isthe first thing you think of
when I say the word discipline?And almost always is
punishments, like something bad,like you're going to punish them
for doing something.
(27:22):
The other thing that comes nextis rewards. Like we reward or we
punish the child, but I thinkthat that is wrong entirely. And
again, in the book Lost atSchool, he talks about if we
change the idea that kids needto be incentivized to do good,
because all kids already want todo good, which is what rewards
and punishment are about tryingto motivate them to do well. If
(27:44):
we realize we don't have tomotivate them to do well, we
have to teach them how to dowell, and that changes
everything. And so everythingneeds to be more based on a
skills based teaching.
Like if a child is reallystruggling, it's usually because
they're lacking some kind of askill and we need to instead of
trying to punish that out ofthem, we got to support them and
(28:06):
help them develop that skill.And honestly, may not know it
yet because they're based in adiscipline form, they want to
build that skill already. Theywant to learn this and you just
got to help them see that theycan be successful with that and
then they'll want to do that. Sothings like school structures
and the whole discipline teamand all that kind of stuff,
(28:28):
which is why I don't send kidsto the discipline office, it's
all based on punishments andit's all based on rewards. And
then we we try and, you know,give rewards to certain kids who
aren't gonna need it either.
Okay. And so we have to moveaway from that towards teaching
kids the skills they're lackingso that they can already do what
they want to do, which is dowell. Every kid wants to live a
(28:51):
happy and successful life, whichI define as being happy. And
instead of trying to punish thebad things out of them, we just
realize because there's justcertain things they need support
in, then they tend to do well.But yeah, I think most
structures in society and schooland all that are based on a
rewards punishment orientation.
And that's a completely wrongidea of human nature and how we
(29:13):
work. So I think seeing that,seeing what really what kids
need, what they lack, and whatwill help them to grow would
change all of that. So it's oneof the reasons why I like to to
try and teach these thingsbecause I think the more people
realize it, the systems kindarevolve to fit what we all see
and understand.
Paul Cruz (29:35):
You often say advocacy starts long before
paperwork. Why do you believereal advocacy begins with
perception long before policy orforms? And what happens when
just one adult chooses to see astudent differently?
Jeff Brown (29:52):
Well, kind like what I mentioned before with my own
experiences, as I teach otherteachers and they have those
same experiences, that changes achild's life forever after that
also. There's a poem, or there'sa phrase by Robert Frost once,
he talks about something calledan immortal wound. That reading
a poem gave him an immortalwound, which is something that
(30:13):
changed him and he neverrecovered from for the rest of
his life in a positive way. Imean we think of wounds as
negative. But I think a teachercan have that kind of effect on
a child that changes them andgives them the confidence to
move forward and actually find ahappier life in the future.
And I see other teachers do thisall the time. Like I talk about
(30:34):
the ways the system needs changeand stuff like that, but from my
experience most teachers want todo the best. Most teachers want
to do what's right, but westruggle with some of these
things we talk about because ofoverwhelm and lack of pain, lack
of respect and all those kind ofthings. And I think those things
will help. But sometimes it'sjust changing the way we see
things, which is why I keeptalking about these things and
(30:56):
write about these things and allthis kind of stuff.
Because I think the more we seethings, actually it makes things
easier and we'll be lessoverwhelmed. And I think
policies, I think the waystructures are, are based on
current beliefs. But if wechange those beliefs, then
policies start to change afterthat also. So it's kind of a two
(31:18):
way thing. Like the policy isstructured the way we think, but
also the way we think structuredpolicies.
So I tend to focus more on theway we think and hopefully that
translates into differentpolicies also.
Paul Cruz (31:31):
You explore these ideas more deeply in your book.
In Seeing People, you teachthese skills through Evelyn, a
fictional adult learner. What doyou hope readers, especially
neurodivergent readers, feel asthey move through those lessons?
Jeff Brown (31:51):
Well, I kind of wrote Evelyn as the every
person, okay, so that the readercan put themselves into Evelyn's
shoes. That each lesson, it'smade up of 20 different
chapters, each a differentlesson, where I help Evelyn see
and understand people in adeeper way. The first one is
what we talked about earlier,which is to stop your judgments,
(32:14):
to stop thinking you understand,and then each one after that is
once you get past that, thenwhat are the biases that keep
you from seeing? What are thejudgments that keep you from
seeing? What are the ways thatwe can look deeper into students
to see their brains, to seetheir activities, to see their
patterns, to see their futures,so that we can know what their
likely future is so we canchange it to a better one.
(32:36):
So I like to teach peopleneurodivergence, neurotypicals,
how understanding this gives uspower to connect with people and
also how to nudge people to abetter future including
ourselves. I've had a bunch ofneurodivergence who read the
book who said that described theway their brain worked better
(32:58):
than anything else. Like it'skind of the inner workings of
your brain. So hopefully forneurodivergence it gives you a
lot more self understanding ofhow the way we think through
things. Which kind of camethrough me studying my own brain
and after getting recentlydiagnosed and realizing that my
brain works differently thaneveryone else also because I'm
autistic and ADHD.
That kind of writing it wastherapeutic in writing out how
(33:23):
my brain works. I found that alot of other neurodivergent say,
Hey, that really resonates withme.
Paul Cruz (33:31):
My final question. If you could leave parents,
teachers, and school leaderswith one essential truth about
neurodivergent students and whatbecomes possible when we truly
see them, what would you wantthem to understand?
Jeff Brown (33:49):
I guess the thing is, we create a system that is
helpful, that is accommodating,that fits with their brains,
that it'll not only helpeveryone, but it'll help a
neurodivergent brain to be ableto contribute in ways that will
help all society be better. Ifyou look throughout history, a
(34:09):
lot of the greatest thinkerswere, a lot of historians think
were likely neurodivergent fromEinstein to Newton to Mozart to
Michelangelo. And if thesebrains are given a chance to
thrive, we'll help not justourselves, but all society in
general. We have some talentsthat I think society needs,
(34:29):
which is the ability to thinkoutside the box, to step outside
existing social structures,which help us to get past things
that we're trapped in, rich waysof thinking, expanding that to
other ways and lifting us to thenext level. So I guess what I
would say is stop saying yourneurodivergent kids as
liabilities and more as brainsthat can really make a
(34:52):
difference to make society andeverything a better place.
But regardless, to see them aspeople and of infinite worth and
of something that is wonderfuljust for the people that they
are as well.
Paul Cruz (35:08):
Jeff, thank you so much for sharing your stories,
your perspective, and your careso openly today. The way you
talk about seeing people bringsa lot of clarity and hope,
especially for young listenerswho may have spent a long time
feeling misunderstood. I reallyappreciate you being here and
(35:31):
the work you continue to do.
Jeff Brown (35:32):
Thank you, Paul. I appreciate it. I love your work
that you're doing. I'm glad thatyou're getting the word out
here. I think this is a greatpodcast.
I've been listening to episodesand I think it's awesome. So
thank you very much and you'redoing a great work also. Thank
you.
Paul Cruz (35:50):
Before we finish, I want to leave you with this.
Helping someone doesn't startwith telling them to change. It
starts with taking time toreally understand them. When
people feel seen, they feelsafer. And when they feel safe,
they can grow.
(36:10):
If today's conversation soundedlike your experience, you're not
alone. There is nothing wrongwith how your brain works. You
don't need to change who you areto belong. When we learn to see
people clearly, includingourselves, That's where real
(36:31):
support begins. If thisconversation brought you
clarity, encouragement, or justmade you feel a little more
seen, there are a few powerfulways you can support the work
we're doing here.
First, you can join our Patreoncommunity. Your monthly support
(36:55):
helps keep the podcast going,helps us bring on incredible
guests, and allows us to createmore resources for
neurodivergent families andadults. Plus, you'll get access
to Bong's content and behind thescenes updates. Just search the
Neurodiversity Voices podcast onPatreon or find the link in our
(37:18):
show notes. If you prefer onetime support, we also have a co
fund me campaign that helpscover production accessibility
tools and future projects.
Every contribution big or smallmakes the real difference in
keeping the show alive andgrowing. And if you're listening
on Apple Podcasts, you can nowsubscribe to our neurodiversity
(37:42):
voices plus. Here, you'll getseven day early access to new
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love for the show by checkingout our merch on Printify shirt,
shirt, hoodies, mugs, more. It'sa fun way Whether you support us
(38:11):
financially, share an episodewith a friend, or simply keep
tuning in.
You are an essential part ofthis community. And we're so
grateful. Until next time, takecare, stay curious, and keep
celebrating the beauty ofdiverse minds. Thanks for
(38:31):
listening to the neurodiversityvoices podcast.
All kids want to do well. Every kid. So most schools
(00:04):
and teachers think that I justneed to incentivize them to do
well, and if they want to dowell, they'll do fine. But every
kid wants to do well already. Toget them to want to do well,
What you do is need to create anenvironment for them in which
they can do well, because it'snot about when you're in an
environment that workscontinually against your brain,
when it works continuallyagainst the way it works, then
you have to try three, fourtimes harder than everybody else
(00:28):
just to get the same amount.
And when you're telling everykid to give you a 100%, some
kids have to give twice thatjust to get the same work done.
What's going happen is youcreate an environment where you
burn kids out. You burn the ADHDkids out, you burn the autistic
kids out because they have towork harder just to keep up.
Paul Cruz (00:47):
Hello, and welcome to the Neurodiversity Voices
podcast. I'm your host, Paul,and we're thrilled to have you
join us on this journey ofexploration, advocacy and
celebration of neurodiversity.Together, we'll have meaningful
conversations, share inspiringstories, and challenge
(01:07):
misconceptions aboutneurodiversity. This podcast is
for everyone, whether you'reneurodivergent yourself, an
educator, a parent, or justsomeone curious to learn more.
Our goal is to amplify voices,foster understanding, and spark
change in the way we view andsupport neurodiversity.
(01:28):
We're so excited to have you aswe celebrate the beauty of
diverse minds and work toward amore inclusive future. So sit
back, relax, and let's getstarted. Welcome to the
Neurodiversity Voices Podcast.Before we get started, I want
you to know this is a safespace. Today's episode is about
(01:50):
what it means to really seepeople, especially kids and
teens whose brains workdifferently.
Sometimes adults focus onbehavior without understanding
what's underneath. Conversation,we're slowing things down. We're
talking about understanding,kindness, and what can change
(02:12):
when someone finally feels seen.If any part of this sounds like
you, you're welcome here. Jeff,thank you so much for being
here.
I really appreciate the way youtalk about understanding people,
not by fixing them, but bylearning how to truly see them.
(02:34):
I'm grateful you're joining usfor this conversation today.
Jeff Brown (02:37):
Thanks, Paul. I'm excited to be here and to be
Paul Cruz (02:39):
able to talk with you. Jeff, you used the phrase
learning to see peoplethroughout your work. When you
say that, what does seeingactually mean in real life,
especially for students whosebrains work differently?
Jeff Brown (02:59):
Yeah. Well, I'm a I'm a high school teacher. I've
been teaching for twenty fiveyears. And, I teach classes like
child development andrelationships and psychology and
stuff like that. And like a lotof, autistic people like myself,
I have kind of a specialinterest in people understanding
them and seeing them and, beingable to understand their
(03:22):
behavior and why people are theway they are.
And so as a teacher, I've beenreally just trying to understand
my students, understand wherethey come from, what they think,
the way their brain works, andto be able to see them. I found
that when I can truly see them,then I have more power to work
(03:42):
with them and influence them andteach them and guide them. But
that comes after seeing them.
Paul Cruz (03:51):
Because so often what adults think they're seeing is
behavior. In schools and homes,behavior is often judged before
it's understood. What changeswhen an adult slows down long
enough to see what's underneaththe behavior?
Jeff Brown (04:10):
Yeah. So the first thing I think in order to
understand behavior, in order tounderstand how kids act and what
they do, we have to be able tounderstand their brain. We kind
of have to see their brain. I'vegot a couple chapters about that
in my book about seeing theirbrain. Once you understand how
their brain works, how it'sdifferent, the ways that it's
acting, the more you canunderstand what's going on here.
(04:33):
One of the most important thingsto be able to understand other
people in general is justknowing the basic truth that
brains don't all work the same.Now, most people think that,
other people's brains workbasically the same way. And so
they judge their behavior basedon what they themselves would do
without really understanding thedifferences behind that. So like
(04:55):
for instance, if I have a kidwith ADHD who is having trouble
staying focused, I remember thatit's a brain that has dopamine
regulation differences andthey're not choosing to be that
way, they're not choosing to bedifficult, that's just what the
way their brain works, then whatI do is instead of blaming the
(05:18):
child, I try and look for waysthat work best to work with
their brain because most, Ithink, teachers and parents and
adults assume that kids are justchoosing to be difficult when
that's typically not the case.
Paul Cruz (05:34):
That slowing down sounds personal, but it also
sounds bigger than that. Yeah.Why do you believe learning how
to see people isn't just apersonal skill, but actually a
form of advocacy?
Jeff Brown (05:49):
Well, think in order to advocate for a child and in
order to advocate for a group,in order to advocate for people
who are vulnerable, I think youtruly have to see them and
understand for where they are. Itold my students just this
morning actually, I taught acouple classes this morning
including my child developmentclass, I said the more I
(06:10):
understand child development,more I understand the way the
brain works, the more Iunderstand the way humans
develop, the less judgmental Ibecome because I no longer judge
bad behaviors as choices, I nolonger judge people who come
from disadvantaged backgroundsin a different way. I once had a
student tell me that if theygrew up a bad environment, then
(06:31):
they would be the one to riseabove it. They would be the one
to raise themselves up by theirbootstraps, so to speak, as the
thing goes. And I told them thatif you grew up in that
environment, you would not bethe same person as you are right
now.
That you would have a differentbrain, that your reactions would
be different. Your brain wouldbe more based on survival than
(06:51):
on trying to do all the thingsthat you do now. Same thing with
kids who are neurodivergent orautistic or ADHD is that we
think that they're making thesechoices when oftentimes this is
a brain that's wired differentlyand we can't advocate for that.
We can't create an environmentfor that unless we know how
(07:12):
their brain works. And once weunderstand and see them, then
you can create an environmentthat works much better for them,
which is kind of what I try anddo in my classes is I also teach
teachers different things aswell.
And I tell them that, hey,anything you can do to make the
environment better forneurodivergent kids is going to
help all your kids because youcreate an accommodating
(07:35):
classroom. It's going to helpevery kid and not just the ones
because a lot of teachers arelike, I don't have time to give
everybody individualaccommodations. I'm like, well,
you don't need to do that. Youjust create an accommodating
environment that works forneurodivergent brains, it's
going to help neurotypicalbrains also. So that's kind of
what I mean by so back to yourquestion on seeing is important
(07:58):
for advocacy is that once youcan see then you can know what
their needs are.
Too often times people areadvocating for people without
really knowing what their needsare, speaking for them, speaking
above them, and silencing theminstead of actually seeing them
and what they need.
Paul Cruz (08:14):
When people aren't truly seen, systems tend to step
in. From your twenty five yearsteaching relationships, what are
the most common waysneurodivergent students are
misunderstood by well meaningadults?
Jeff Brown (08:31):
Well, I think, one of them again is that they I
have a lot of ADHD and autistickids who tell me that they were
hated by teachers as they grewup, that teachers did not
understand them. They thoughtthey were just trying to be
difficult, that, they were likeworking against them or trying
to sabotage their classeswithout really seeing that these
(08:52):
kids are just trying to gettheir brains to work in an
environment that wasn't made forthem. And so I think that's the
first one is just assuming thatthese kids are making choices
that they don't want to do well.But I've discovered there's
another book about this calledLost at School which is that all
kids want to do well. Every kid,so most schools and teachers
(09:15):
think that I just need toincentivize them to do well and
if they wanna do well they'll dofine.
But every kid wants to do wellalready. Have to get them to
want to do well. What you do isneed to create an environment
for them in which they can dowell because it's not about when
you're in an environment thatworks continually against your
brain, when it works continuallyagainst the way it works, then
(09:36):
you have to try three, fourtimes harder than everybody else
just to get the same amount. Andwhen you're telling every kid to
give your a 100%, some kids haveto give twice that just to get
the same work done. What's goingto happen is you create an
environment where you burn kidsout.
You burn the ADHD kids out, youburn the autistic kids out
because they have to work harderjust to keep up. So I guess the
(10:01):
biggest ways in which I seeteachers and parents and other
adults misread or misunderstandor miss see these kids as they
think that they just need to tryharder that they, and the
problem is they're alreadytrying harder. These kids are
not lazy. A lot of teachersthink that ADHD kids are lazy or
that autistic kids just don'tget it. And that's not true.
(10:22):
They're actually oftentimes fromwhat I've noticed, a lot of
these kids are actually workingway harder than their peers and
not often getting the sameresults. And when teachers don't
acknowledge that, they're stillwhen you're working twice as
hard as everyone else and theteacher tells you, why are you
so lazy? Then that'sdemoralizing. You feel like, why
(10:43):
am I even trying at all? And sosome of these kids, by the time
they get to my classes and whenthey're 15, 16, 17, that's the
ages I teach, that they're just,like, giving up.
Because like why try if even ifI do try, I get told that I'm
lazy anyways. So I think that'sone of the biggest things.
Autistic and ADHD kids areoftentimes told they're lazy or
that they don't get it or theyjust wonder why they don't just
(11:06):
learn the same way everybodyelse does.
Paul Cruz (11:11):
And those misunderstandings often get
labeled. How often do you seeoverwhelm, sensory overload, or
anxiety misread as defiance,disrespect, or a lack of effort?
Jeff Brown (11:27):
I think that happens all the time. I think if a kid
is in an environment that worksagainst their brain, they're
constantly in a state ofoverwhelm and sensory overload.
And when a teacher tries to comein and push a little bit harder
while they're already in thatstate, then you're gonna have
sometimes you have a kid shutdown or sometimes you have a kid
(11:50):
pushed back and so then teachersmay interpret that as well
they're being lazy or they'repushing back and so they're
being defiant And so then whathappens is you have teachers and
kids in a power struggle and themore you're going to push on a
meltdown, on a shutdown or on anADHD kid with RSD rejection
sensitive dysphoria, the moreyou're going to have them shut
(12:13):
down. And so then they thinkthat's even more defiant and
that unfortunately ends too manytimes with kids getting sent to
the discipline office, whichdoesn't help anything at all. So
in my twenty five years ofteaching, I've only sent a kid
one time to the disciplineoffice and that was because he
said something horrible toanother student that I had to
(12:34):
deal with, that was the only wayI could deal with it.
But every other time I found ifyou understand what the kid is
going on, if I have a kid who'sreally pushing back, then I'll
just pull him outside and say,hey, is there's, are you okay?
What's going on here? This isn'tlike what you're normally like.
Is there something happeningthat you need to tell me about?
And every time I've got thekids, we'll just say, yes, Mr.
(12:56):
Brown. I had a rough morningthis morning. I had a fight with
my dad or didn't sleep at alllast night or any of those
things and then I'll say, I'm sosorry you're feeling that way.
If we could work together onthis then then we can find a way
forward. And there has not beena single time where that hasn't
worked.
So not a single time if I had tosend a kid to that discipline
(13:18):
office because first of all wetry and create an environment
where they feel more comfortableso it's less likely to happen
but it doesn't make it zero likethere's still some kids are
still going to have that troubleWhen they do have that trouble,
when they know they havesomebody they can turn to
instead of somebody who's tryingto force them, then what happens
is that they build trust in youand they know you're on their
(13:38):
side. So you're kinda like acoach rather than a
disciplinarian who's trying tostop them.
Paul Cruz (13:46):
That kind of mislabeling doesn't just affect
discipline. It affects how ayoung person sees themselves.
What impact does the thatmisinterpretation have on a
child's nervous system identityand long term sense of self
(14:06):
worth?
Jeff Brown (14:06):
Yeah. That's one of the big ones is unfortunately,
again, by the time they get tomy classes, they've already had
several teachers by that time.Some of them who might have been
good, but also they remember alot of the ones who
misunderstood them. And so bythat time, a lot of them, like
this one I talked about in myclass this morning, is that
quote that if you, I can'tremember the quote, but anyways
(14:27):
that different kids learndifferent ways and so they're
gonna think they're stupid ifthey learn in a different way.
And so what happens is by thetime they get to me, they feel
like they don't know anything.
Don't, they feel like they'restupid and they don't understand
that they're actually highlyintelligent. They're just their
brain requires differentcircumstances for it to work the
(14:47):
way they need to. So ADHD kidsin particular, something called
rejection sensitive dysphoria inwhich every time there is one
study that said by doctorMichael Jelenick that said that
kids ADHD kids are given 20,000criticisms by the time they're
aged 10 in school. And RSD makesit feel so much worse every time
you're criticized. So they justshut down.
(15:11):
ADHD kids or autistic kids areoftentimes asked why they're not
getting it and their sensoryissues might go higher and so
they might shut down more. Andadd to that, that there's a
whole bunch of these kids,autistic and ADHD who are
undiagnosed, who don't knowtheir ADHD and don't know
they're autistic like myself,who's just recently diagnosed
(15:34):
with both of those. Teachersthink that they're just being
lazy also because they don'thave diagnosis and all those
kinds things. So these kids justwonder why everything's so much
harder for them. And they thinkthey're just not as smart.
They think they just can't workas hard as everyone else. And so
maybe they must be lazy orinternalizing. That's where we
get what we call internalizedableism oftentimes as well. So
Paul Cruz (16:01):
This is where your work becomes really practical.
If a teacher or parent islistening right now and
realizing they may have beenmisreading a child, where should
they start relearning how to seethat child?
Jeff Brown (16:16):
Well, this is kind of why I wrote my book, Seeing
People About That, is to kind oftake people through that process
of being able to read deeper.And it's not just about autistic
and ADHD, but it's all kids. Andthey need to start by seeing
that their brain worksdifferently to understand, maybe
do some research and educationon how different brains work.
And that's kind of when Istarted to, I have a daughter
(16:40):
who was diagnosed autistic. Ihave another daughter who's
diagnosed ADHD.
I've got other kids who I'm notsure what's going on exactly,
there's different things goingon with all of them. And so we
started doing just tons ofresearch when we found out about
autism and ADHD and things likethat. And just started to
realize that their brains that Ihad misread them. I had misread,
(17:04):
the ways that things were goingon. My daughter, Emeline has
ADHD.
She's always been aperfectionist. She's always been
a high achiever, which is verycommon for ADHD girls. And I was
always trying to get her to justback off a little bit so she
wouldn't burn herself out. Ididn't realize that her ADHD and
her RSD in particular were werethe things driving that. And so
(17:27):
when we, I realized that shewasn't choosing that, it's just
the way your brain worked.
I did some research on that. Ifound a workbook online that
helps her with her RSD. Iprinted that offer and started
helping her work with that. Shefound a therapist who worked
well with that and would helpher with her RSD and some
(17:47):
neurodivergent affirmingtherapists and things like that.
Same thing with my daughterGeneva, she was actually not
diagnosed until she was 14.
And we had misread a lot of whatwas going on with her. So a lot
of times we're like, well,what's going on? Why can't you
do some of the same things yourbrothers and sisters are doing?
And then when we realized, okay,okay, we need to take a step
back and realize things justdon't work the same. And then
(18:10):
she was a lot less frustrated.
We were a lot less frustrated.The more we educated ourselves
and both my process with my ownkids and my students at school
helped me realize that I need tostop judging kids. And there's a
phrase that I think about a lot,is also in the book as well, is
be curious, not judgmental. ThatI need to be curious about why
(18:30):
if a kid is struggling at schoolor one of my own kids, I need to
be curious about what is causingthat, what is what's happening
there, and then really look intothat. And then it becomes more
of a puzzle.
And some of the of the difficultkids at school that a lot of
teachers get annoyed by, I findthem interesting and
fascinating. And I actually tendto enjoy them. And that helps me
(18:53):
get a better response from them.But they know that I'm trying to
understand them and that createsa much better dynamic between me
and them so that I can help themkind of with their struggles a
little bit. But I would sayparents and teachers do more
research on the way differentbrain works, try and understand
that, see what works indifferent autistic and different
(19:14):
ADHD because different thingswork.
So you gotta do some trial anderror also. But really, they're
not choosing to be difficult.There are things that they need
a little extra help in.
Paul Cruz (19:25):
But slowing down perception isn't easy in fast
paced environments. You talkabout slowing down perception.
What does that actually looklike in a busy classroom or home
without losing structure orexpectations?
Jeff Brown (19:41):
Well, I think the main thing is kind of like what
I said, be curious, notjudgmental, is that our brains
automatically have this desireto jump to a conclusion that we
want to figure things out. Wewant to know things. And
sometimes that's called theillusion of knowledge is that we
think we figured somebody outway before we really have. That
we think that our brain wants tomake that judgment as soon as
(20:05):
possible. And so we have to stopour brain from doing that.
We have to want to know more andmore about them because the
second you decide you knowsomebody is the second that you
stop learning about them. Sothat's the first thing is just
stopping your judgment. Like,once you think you understand a
kid at school, once you thinkyou understand your own
students, just realize, hey, Iknow something about them.
(20:26):
There's still a lot more tolearn and still be curious as
you're doing that. Now, you canstill have structure because
structure does not require ajudgmental environment.
Structure just requires thingslike boundaries and rules and
things that people can count onand things that aren't based on
(20:47):
judgments and getting angry orgetting upset. You can be firm
and have boundaries and allthose things without actually
using disappointment or anger orfear as a way to control. Those
things tend to make thingsworse, with neurodivergent kids,
I think.
Paul Cruz (21:11):
And sometimes slowing down means resisting the urge to
fix things right away. How doadults learn to sit with
uncertainty instead of rushingto control or correct behavior?
Jeff Brown (21:25):
Well, that's one of the big things we talk about in
my relationships class, and isthe need to control. In my
relationships class, we talkabout that every relationship
has power. You have like in StarWars, I use that as an analogy,
and I'm actually writing asecond book on that right now.
But power is the light side andthe dark side. And the dark side
comes from a need to control.
(21:46):
And that typically is made up ofthree different things. Fear as
a way to control people out offear. Second one is conditional
love, which is that I will giveyou acceptance, but only after
you do what I want you to. Andthe third one is, manipulation,
which uses fear, obligation, andguilt as a way to control
somebody. Now once you give upthe need to control, then you're
(22:09):
gonna go for more an influencein teaching and coaching type of
base.
Like for instance, that I don'tneed to make my own kid fit into
a particular box. I don't needto make my students at school be
exactly the way I need them to.What I'm gonna do is take them
from where they're at, which Iaccept them at that point, but
I'm gonna lead them to a betterplace from there. I think it's
(22:32):
when parents feel that they needtheir kids to be a particular
way, when teachers feel that,oftentimes that comes from a
place of thinking that theirbehavior reflects on themselves.
And so I need them to act just away that I can be proud.
And we forget what the kid needsand more about what we need as
parents and teachers. So givingup that, there's there's a great
(22:56):
scene in Kung Fu Panda, one ofmy favorite movies. Ashram
Tortoise after Master Ugwei.Because Master Ugwei teaches an
important lesson that you haveto give up the illusion of
control. And then once you can,you can lead and guide and train
Po much like growing a the peachtree.
Okay. Once we stop seeing kidsas something that need to be
(23:19):
controlled and somebody that wejust need to nurture, then that
that moves us away from a fearbased, a control based, more to
a I'm gonna help you besomething better than who you
are. And that's more based ontrust. That kids will more
likely follow you because theylike where you're leading them.
(23:41):
They know that you're gonna leadthem to a better life.
And so typically, don't have toforce my kids or or my students
at school because they knowmister Brown's teaching good
things and I wanna learn that.So it's out of a desire rather
than fear.
Paul Cruz (23:58):
Love to ground this in a real moment. Can you share
an example of a time when trulyseeing a student rather than
reacting to their behaviorchanged the direction of their
life?
Jeff Brown (24:12):
Yeah, so when I first started teaching, I think
I was a bit more judgmental thanI was now and more needing to
control and a little bit lessunderstanding of how these
things work. But I had onestudent who's kind of always in
the back who was alwayschallenging me and questioning
everything I said, and I thoughtthat he was just trying to make
(24:33):
things, know, I just alwaysthought it made things
difficult. I was getting moreand more frustrated. And so I
just spent a little bit of timetrying to figure out and
understand, well, why is hedoing this? What's going on
here?
And so once I did that, Irealized that he has an
underlying different way ofthinking and processing things.
So what I did is I made a lessonbased on something that he would
(24:55):
understand in a different waythat is aimed at something he
needs to learn. So I made thatlesson for the whole class, but
I think he realized it wassomething about him also. And I
didn't it wasn't a disciplinething. It wasn't a criticism
thing.
It was just teaching this newway of thinking about things.
And it changed the way hereacted from from pretty much
there on. Later, actually, whenI was getting my master's
(25:16):
degree, he was actually gettinghis bachelor's degree at the
same college and we ended up ina class together. It was
interesting. And he once toldme, he said, mister Brown,
you're the only teacher who tooktime to to understand what I was
saying and get to know me.
Everybody else just thought Iwas being annoying. But you're
the only teacher. And so, yeah,just taking the time to see and
understand can make a differencefrom there on, actually.
Paul Cruz (25:41):
What did that moment teach you about the power an
adult holds?
Jeff Brown (25:46):
Well, I realized that well, first of all, as a
teacher, I think a lot of us arepretty aware of how much power
we can have. And for a lot of usit keeps us up and it's
something to realize that whatwe do can have an impact on a
child for good or for negativefor many years to come. And so I
just always try and keep that inmind that in some ways, just as
(26:09):
an encouraging word, stopping tounderstand. He's not the only
kid who told me that I wassomebody who stopped to
understand them and it made allthe difference. And so I found
that most of the things thatwould change a child's life were
less about my classes, what theytaught, and more about the
connections that I had withthem.
That if they understood that Isaw them and understood them,
(26:34):
then that would change how theyfelt about themselves. And if
that would change how they feltabout themselves, then they
would, that would change theirwhole future. And so it made a
difference.
Paul Cruz (26:46):
Seeing isn't just emotional, it shapes systems.
How does the way adults see achild influence things like
discipline, IEPs, access tosupport, and long term
opportunity?
Jeff Brown (27:01):
Well, I think too much of our structures are based
on a rewards and punishmentstype of way to see things. When
when I when I say like, I I wastalking about this with my
students this morning also.We're doing a review over the
whole semester. And I what isthe first thing you think of
when I say the word discipline?And almost always is
punishments, like something bad,like you're going to punish them
for doing something.
(27:22):
The other thing that comes nextis rewards. Like we reward or we
punish the child, but I thinkthat that is wrong entirely. And
again, in the book Lost atSchool, he talks about if we
change the idea that kids needto be incentivized to do good,
because all kids already want todo good, which is what rewards
and punishment are about tryingto motivate them to do well. If
(27:44):
we realize we don't have tomotivate them to do well, we
have to teach them how to dowell, and that changes
everything. And so everythingneeds to be more based on a
skills based teaching.
Like if a child is reallystruggling, it's usually because
they're lacking some kind of askill and we need to instead of
trying to punish that out ofthem, we got to support them and
(28:06):
help them develop that skill.And honestly, may not know it
yet because they're based in adiscipline form, they want to
build that skill already. Theywant to learn this and you just
got to help them see that theycan be successful with that and
then they'll want to do that. Sothings like school structures
and the whole discipline teamand all that kind of stuff,
(28:28):
which is why I don't send kidsto the discipline office, it's
all based on punishments andit's all based on rewards. And
then we we try and, you know,give rewards to certain kids who
aren't gonna need it either.
Okay. And so we have to moveaway from that towards teaching
kids the skills they're lackingso that they can already do what
they want to do, which is dowell. Every kid wants to live a
(28:51):
happy and successful life, whichI define as being happy. And
instead of trying to punish thebad things out of them, we just
realize because there's justcertain things they need support
in, then they tend to do well.But yeah, I think most
structures in society and schooland all that are based on a
rewards punishment orientation.
And that's a completely wrongidea of human nature and how we
(29:13):
work. So I think seeing that,seeing what really what kids
need, what they lack, and whatwill help them to grow would
change all of that. So it's oneof the reasons why I like to to
try and teach these thingsbecause I think the more people
realize it, the systems kindarevolve to fit what we all see
and understand.
Paul Cruz (29:35):
You often say advocacy starts long before
paperwork. Why do you believereal advocacy begins with
perception long before policy orforms? And what happens when
just one adult chooses to see astudent differently?
Jeff Brown (29:52):
Well, kind like what I mentioned before with my own
experiences, as I teach otherteachers and they have those
same experiences, that changes achild's life forever after that
also. There's a poem, or there'sa phrase by Robert Frost once,
he talks about something calledan immortal wound. That reading
a poem gave him an immortalwound, which is something that
(30:13):
changed him and he neverrecovered from for the rest of
his life in a positive way. Imean we think of wounds as
negative. But I think a teachercan have that kind of effect on
a child that changes them andgives them the confidence to
move forward and actually find ahappier life in the future.
And I see other teachers do thisall the time. Like I talk about
(30:34):
the ways the system needs changeand stuff like that, but from my
experience most teachers want todo the best. Most teachers want
to do what's right, but westruggle with some of these
things we talk about because ofoverwhelm and lack of pain, lack
of respect and all those kind ofthings. And I think those things
will help. But sometimes it'sjust changing the way we see
things, which is why I keeptalking about these things and
(30:56):
write about these things and allthis kind of stuff.
Because I think the more we seethings, actually it makes things
easier and we'll be lessoverwhelmed. And I think
policies, I think the waystructures are, are based on
current beliefs. But if wechange those beliefs, then
policies start to change afterthat also. So it's kind of a two
(31:18):
way thing. Like the policy isstructured the way we think, but
also the way we think structuredpolicies.
So I tend to focus more on theway we think and hopefully that
translates into differentpolicies also.
Paul Cruz (31:31):
You explore these ideas more deeply in your book.
In Seeing People, you teachthese skills through Evelyn, a
fictional adult learner. What doyou hope readers, especially
neurodivergent readers, feel asthey move through those lessons?
Jeff Brown (31:51):
Well, I kind of wrote Evelyn as the every
person, okay, so that the readercan put themselves into Evelyn's
shoes. That each lesson, it'smade up of 20 different
chapters, each a differentlesson, where I help Evelyn see
and understand people in adeeper way. The first one is
what we talked about earlier,which is to stop your judgments,
(32:14):
to stop thinking you understand,and then each one after that is
once you get past that, thenwhat are the biases that keep
you from seeing? What are thejudgments that keep you from
seeing? What are the ways thatwe can look deeper into students
to see their brains, to seetheir activities, to see their
patterns, to see their futures,so that we can know what their
likely future is so we canchange it to a better one.
(32:36):
So I like to teach peopleneurodivergence, neurotypicals,
how understanding this gives uspower to connect with people and
also how to nudge people to abetter future including
ourselves. I've had a bunch ofneurodivergence who read the
book who said that described theway their brain worked better
(32:58):
than anything else. Like it'skind of the inner workings of
your brain. So hopefully forneurodivergence it gives you a
lot more self understanding ofhow the way we think through
things. Which kind of camethrough me studying my own brain
and after getting recentlydiagnosed and realizing that my
brain works differently thaneveryone else also because I'm
autistic and ADHD.
That kind of writing it wastherapeutic in writing out how
(33:23):
my brain works. I found that alot of other neurodivergent say,
Hey, that really resonates withme.
Paul Cruz (33:31):
My final question. If you could leave parents,
teachers, and school leaderswith one essential truth about
neurodivergent students and whatbecomes possible when we truly
see them, what would you wantthem to understand?
Jeff Brown (33:49):
I guess the thing is, we create a system that is
helpful, that is accommodating,that fits with their brains,
that it'll not only helpeveryone, but it'll help a
neurodivergent brain to be ableto contribute in ways that will
help all society be better. Ifyou look throughout history, a
(34:09):
lot of the greatest thinkerswere, a lot of historians think
were likely neurodivergent fromEinstein to Newton to Mozart to
Michelangelo. And if thesebrains are given a chance to
thrive, we'll help not justourselves, but all society in
general. We have some talentsthat I think society needs,
(34:29):
which is the ability to thinkoutside the box, to step outside
existing social structures,which help us to get past things
that we're trapped in, rich waysof thinking, expanding that to
other ways and lifting us to thenext level. So I guess what I
would say is stop saying yourneurodivergent kids as
liabilities and more as brainsthat can really make a
(34:52):
difference to make society andeverything a better place.
But regardless, to see them aspeople and of infinite worth and
of something that is wonderfuljust for the people that they
are as well.
Paul Cruz (35:08):
Jeff, thank you so much for sharing your stories,
your perspective, and your careso openly today. The way you
talk about seeing people bringsa lot of clarity and hope,
especially for young listenerswho may have spent a long time
feeling misunderstood. I reallyappreciate you being here and
(35:31):
the work you continue to do.
Jeff Brown (35:32):
Thank you, Paul. I appreciate it. I love your work
that you're doing. I'm glad thatyou're getting the word out
here. I think this is a greatpodcast.
I've been listening to episodesand I think it's awesome. So
thank you very much and you'redoing a great work also. Thank
you.
Paul Cruz (35:50):
Before we finish, I want to leave you with this.
Helping someone doesn't startwith telling them to change. It
starts with taking time toreally understand them. When
people feel seen, they feelsafer. And when they feel safe,
they can grow.
(36:10):
If today's conversation soundedlike your experience, you're not
alone. There is nothing wrongwith how your brain works. You
don't need to change who you areto belong. When we learn to see
people clearly, includingourselves, That's where real
(36:31):
support begins. If thisconversation brought you
clarity, encouragement, or justmade you feel a little more
seen, there are a few powerfulways you can support the work
we're doing here.
First, you can join our Patreoncommunity. Your monthly support
(36:55):
helps keep the podcast going,helps us bring on incredible
guests, and allows us to createmore resources for
neurodivergent families andadults. Plus, you'll get access
to Bong's content and behind thescenes updates. Just search the
Neurodiversity Voices podcast onPatreon or find the link in our
(37:18):
show notes. If you prefer onetime support, we also have a co
fund me campaign that helpscover production accessibility
tools and future projects.
Every contribution big or smallmakes the real difference in
keeping the show alive andgrowing. And if you're listening
on Apple Podcasts, you can nowsubscribe to our neurodiversity
(37:42):
voices plus. Here, you'll getseven day early access to new
episodes with a one month freetrial and in listening
experience designed just for oursupport. You can also show your
love for the show by checkingout our merch on Printify shirt,
shirt, hoodies, mugs, more. It'sa fun way Whether you support us
(38:11):
financially, share an episodewith a friend, or simply keep
tuning in.
You are an essential part ofthis community. And we're so
grateful. Until next time, takecare, stay curious, and keep
celebrating the beauty ofdiverse minds. Thanks for
(38:31):
listening to the neurodiversityvoices podcast.
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