Ep. 1: From Reservist to Recruiting Icon with John Hand

In this debut episode of 'The Opposite of Infantry,' host Kevin Crowsyn chats with John Hand, an Army reservist and seasoned recruiter. They discuss John's unique journey from joining the Army Reserves in high school, experiencing the impact of 9/11, and the differences between their multiple deployments. The episode also addresses the concept of 'the opposite of infantry,' reflecting on non-combat roles, toxic tribalism, and their impact on mental health. They share humorous anecdotes about military bureaucracy, highlight the importance of various military roles, and discuss the significance of acknowledging every service member's contribution. Tune in for an insightful conversation that sheds light on validating the service of all veterans and fighting imposter syndrome.

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Alright, this is the debut episode of The Opposite of Infantry, and I am fortunate to have as our first guest, John Hamm.
Can you hear me, John? Hey, you're coming, you're coming in great too.
I think I can hear everything you're saying.
.002Awesome! We have been screwing around with this for some time so we're gonna go ahead and keep it going. 5 00:00:22,460.003 --> 00:00:26,369.802 Hopefully our technical issues do not heh. 6 00:00:26,499.902 --> 00:00:28,559.902 You know, hinder us too much further. 7 00:00:29,159.902 --> 00:00:38,809.9 So, pop on if you if you can't hear me bud but thank you so much for, for joining me today for kind of helping me along this episode one of this journey. 8 00:00:38,819.9 --> 00:00:44,279.902 You're one of the very first people that I actually brought this idea to and talk to you about. 9 00:00:44,619.902 --> 00:00:48,449.902 This concept of, of opposite of infantry and what it means. 10 00:00:48,949.902 --> 00:00:50,859.902 So I just want to open it right up. 11 00:00:51,529.901 --> 00:01:05,43.901 Tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and what does this phrase, what is this idea of the opposite of infantry mean to you? Yeah, so I guess I'll start with a little bit about myself. 12 00:01:05,73.901 --> 00:01:12,503.901 My background is I joined the army reserves in January of 2001. 13 00:01:12,503.901 --> 00:01:13,993.901 That's a junior in high school. 14 00:01:15,333.9 --> 00:01:23,853.902 I up my junior year of high school, went to basic train the summer of 2001. 15 00:01:26,343.9 --> 00:01:36,553.901 We were talking about this a little bit before it kind of ties into the idea of the opposite of when I went to basic train, there was no Wars going on. 16 00:01:36,563.901 --> 00:01:44,503.901 We weren't dealing with the war on terror or the that came with that at the time. 17 00:01:46,13.901 --> 00:01:56,473.901 The army reserves, the active duty army didn't have the same type of, I think, meaning that they might have now. 18 00:01:57,793.9 --> 00:01:58,649.9 So absolutely. 19 00:01:58,783.9 --> 00:02:02,199.901 when I was in basic training, can you hear me? Oh yeah. 20 00:02:02,200.001 --> 00:02:02,609.801 Yeah. 21 00:02:05,393.901 --> 00:02:05,683.901 Yeah. 22 00:02:05,763.901 --> 00:02:20,533.901 So while I was in basic training, we had September 11th happened, kind of changed the way that the attitude of the army and the army reserves was understood at the time. 23 00:02:21,843.9 --> 00:02:26,413.901 I was a civil affairs specialist. 24 00:02:26,643.9 --> 00:02:28,413.901 I signed up to be a civil affairs specialist. 25 00:02:28,913.901 --> 00:02:43,299.9 Came back, finished my senior year of high school, What was that like? What was that like being a split option, like, in that year between you know, after 9 11 happened? Because I joined not to, you know, we're the same grade. 26 00:02:43,379.899 --> 00:02:45,349.9 You know, I graduated in 02 as well. 27 00:02:45,579.899 --> 00:02:48,49.899 I joined in November of 01 just after. 28 00:02:48,494.899 --> 00:02:56,934.899 So for me, there already was a stigma because, you know, by November of 01, we're a couple months in, we know, you know, war is happening. 29 00:02:57,364.899 --> 00:03:00,324.899 I joined the reserve as a admin clerk. 30 00:03:00,634.898 --> 00:03:04,84.898 And that was like, you know, for me, it was like, Hey, at least I'm doing something. 31 00:03:04,104.899 --> 00:03:08,124.899 Everyone else was like, I'm going to go kick in doors and we're going to kill terrorists. 32 00:03:08,644.899 --> 00:03:11,354.899 So you had a very unique. 33 00:03:11,989.899 --> 00:03:21,699.899 There's very few people, you know, in the military that have the experience that you have of being a split option you know, and having to go back to school after nine 11 happened. 34 00:03:21,939.898 --> 00:03:24,699.897 Tell us a little bit more about how your senior year was. 35 00:03:27,328.898 --> 00:03:50,498.897 I think being from New York, we had a different opinion of what it meant maybe that service because it was so close to home, what happened you know, we were returning to someplace that was devastated by that. 36 00:03:50,508.897 --> 00:03:57,208.896 My high school that I had went to wasn't that far from the world trade centers. 37 00:03:57,699.896 --> 00:04:00,9.8965 Oh, absolutely. 38 00:04:00,9.8965 --> 00:04:02,29.797 Absolutely. 39 00:04:02,93.897 --> 00:04:13,133.897 school and actually withdrawn from that high school in New York city the year before and started going to high school in upstate New York, closer to West Point at the time. 40 00:04:14,183.896 --> 00:04:24,83.897 but the high school that I was previously going to was in New York city and 16th street and sixth Avenue which about 20 blocks from the world trade centers at the time. 41 00:04:26,673.897 --> 00:04:28,73.897 So we had a pretty. 42 00:04:31,638.897 --> 00:04:53,928.898 Unique intimate relationship with 9 11 because it was so close to home because we had neighbors and relatives that were killed in 9 11, right? We all knew somebody that, that had died there in New York city. 43 00:04:54,458.898 --> 00:04:55,707.898 Any thoughts, grown up. 44 00:04:55,808.898 --> 00:05:03,67.898 was there any thoughts of trying to switch to active duty or switch your job? Was there any discussions of that or were you, absolutely. 45 00:05:03,127.898 --> 00:05:05,227.898 I did try to go active duty a couple of times. 46 00:05:05,237.898 --> 00:05:14,827.899 It wasn't that easy the, the switch over, but also as soon as I finished AIT, my reserve unit was mobilized to go to Iraq as well. 47 00:05:17,312.899 --> 00:05:21,182.899 So the timing was interesting. 48 00:05:21,442.899 --> 00:05:31,592.899 While I was in AIT, I tried to apply to go active duty and they said I had to finish my AIT and come back and talk to a recruiter. 49 00:05:32,42.899 --> 00:05:41,942.899 And by that time, my reserve unit was mobilized and we had been, starting to prepare and go to someplace. 50 00:05:43,592.899 --> 00:05:52,152.899 it wasn't known that we were going to Iraq at the time, because the Iraq war wasn't what it would become. 51 00:05:52,532.899 --> 00:05:58,193.899 You know, there was a lot of the the UN was doing its investigation since the weapons of mass destruction absolutely. 52 00:05:58,342.899 --> 00:05:59,932.899 denied the access. 53 00:05:59,932.899 --> 00:06:02,453.899 And so we were gearing up in Yeah. 54 00:06:02,672.899 --> 00:06:12,342.899 Turkey and Kuwait So we're talking what? Are you, you talking late 02 or early 03? so this is the, very end of O2. 55 00:06:12,342.899 --> 00:06:17,952.899 So I finished my advanced individual training, around November of 2002. 56 00:06:18,452.899 --> 00:06:25,192.898 So, we were actually doing our Christmas either our Christmas ball assembly or Thanksgiving ball assembly or something like that. 57 00:06:25,202.897 --> 00:06:26,92.897 Some type of party. 58 00:06:26,682.898 --> 00:06:34,312.898 And they're like, Hey this is also where we're giving you guys some advanced notification that we are preparing for mobilization. 59 00:06:35,977.898 --> 00:06:41,883.898 So we finished up our, you know, December drills, and then we came back in January, hmm. 60 00:06:41,977.898 --> 00:06:52,27.899 With 30 day active, orders to packing our units, start training up for, future mobilization. 61 00:06:53,82.898 --> 00:06:59,532.898 So we stayed on repeated 30 day orders from January until we actually deployed in March of 2003. 62 00:06:59,813.898 --> 00:07:22,293.897 Yeah, so that was actually my, our parallels are, are crazy cause I deployed March of 03 but again, being, you know, true to the theme of opposite of infantry I deployed to Kosovo while, while everything else in the world was going down in, you know, in Iraq was launching off literally right at the same time, just as you were headed out that way. 63 00:07:22,293.897 --> 00:07:22,343.897 Okay. 64 00:07:22,633.897 --> 00:07:39,253.895 While Afghanistan was, was underway I was in a medical unit and we went to Kosovo so that was, you know, again, you know, very kind of a strange divergence you know, to just be in a complete different part of the world doing a completely different mission. 65 00:07:39,863.895 --> 00:07:53,702.894 You know, so how was that your only deployment or did you end up deploying several times while you were in the reserve? So I came back from Iraq in 2004, March March, 2004. 66 00:07:54,522.893 --> 00:08:05,292.894 And tried to go to college for a little bit and didn't really take and quickly applied to come on to recruiting duty picked up for that. 67 00:08:05,372.893 --> 00:08:05,972.893 And. 68 00:08:07,57.894 --> 00:08:10,62.794 Been doing recruiting duty since January 2005. 69 00:08:10,463.894 --> 00:08:10,923.894 Oh, wow. 70 00:08:10,993.894 --> 00:08:16,893.894 So you came into recruiting you know, about four or five years before I did I came back also did the college thing. 71 00:08:16,943.894 --> 00:08:22,943.894 Again, we have very similar parallels in that got back and you know, end of end of oh three. 72 00:08:23,303.893 --> 00:08:26,983.894 But by mid oh four, I was cross leveled and activated again. 73 00:08:27,13.894 --> 00:08:28,503.894 And this time I was up to Kuwait. 74 00:08:28,958.894 --> 00:08:32,48.894 It was technically part of the the OIF campaign. 75 00:08:32,428.894 --> 00:08:37,838.895 A lot of people give me flack because I got my, quote, combat patch from Kuwait from that time period. 76 00:08:38,258.895 --> 00:08:41,88.895 And then I I didn't make the jump to recruiting. 77 00:08:42,233.895 --> 00:08:42,753.895 09. 78 00:08:43,83.895 --> 00:08:53,613.895 So you had been you know, well established by the time I came along and then we both, you know, obviously been in you know, recruiting command you since 05, me since 09. 79 00:08:53,963.894 --> 00:09:01,213.893 So well, you know, apart, you know, the, the typical bureaucratic, you know, kind of office jobs across the U S. 80 00:09:01,763.893 --> 00:09:02,453.893 Absolutely. 81 00:09:02,604.893 --> 00:09:05,324.893 of us kind of have this, you know, reserve background. 82 00:09:05,324.893 --> 00:09:20,734.892 Both of us have this background when it comes to you know, being kind of admin, non combat guys, you know, I'm sure, you know, you've heard a lot over your career, both in being in the reserve, both being reserve mobilized with active duty. 83 00:09:20,854.892 --> 00:09:22,194.892 And then also in recruiting. 84 00:09:22,564.892 --> 00:09:30,904.892 So circling back to the theme and kind of the name of the show, like kind of reflecting, we just did a big, real short cliff note version of your career. 85 00:09:31,394.891 --> 00:09:49,763.891 So what is, you know, what does it come to mind when you hear the phrase, the opposite of infantry? Like, what does that mean and how does that apply to you in your career? Well, I mean, you know, I think of recruiting a lot. 86 00:09:49,813.891 --> 00:09:57,523.891 Recruiting ends up to me being pretty far away from infantry as you can possibly get. 87 00:09:58,279.891 --> 00:09:59,769.891 Yeah, the grid that we're using. 88 00:09:59,809.891 --> 00:10:04,879.891 So for the show if you haven't seen the graphic, you can check it out on the website or on our social channels. 89 00:10:04,973.891 --> 00:10:05,989.891 I had it Yeah. 90 00:10:06,203.891 --> 00:10:35,949.891 I don't know what I do Yeah, yeah, but for any for anyone listening you can check it out So the the barometer of what we're using for opposite of infantry is violence and physical demands So infantry is very high on both of those Admin recruiting, you know recruiting especially falls on the very low end We don't have a lot of physical demands other than needing a passive fitness test and obviously we don't you know, most of us there's some cities out there that are You know, that aren't great. 91 00:10:36,149.891 --> 00:10:40,689.891 But obviously it's not going to be anywhere, you know, comparison to what infantry is doing. 92 00:10:43,823.891 --> 00:10:44,93.891 yeah. 93 00:10:44,93.891 --> 00:10:50,763.891 I'll be as many times I've been a station commander you know, whenever we get the, the fortunate infantry guys to come through recruiting station. 94 00:10:51,413.891 --> 00:10:57,653.891 I haven't had too many saying that they want to go back to an infantry platoon after being in a recruiting station. 95 00:10:58,263.891 --> 00:11:03,623.891 You get the opportunity to avoid being cold and wet and miserable. 96 00:11:04,858.891 --> 00:11:06,828.891 To going home every day to your family. 97 00:11:06,828.891 --> 00:11:08,648.891 I know that's not everyone's experience. 98 00:11:08,659.891 --> 00:11:09,9.891 Sure. 99 00:11:09,98.891 --> 00:11:14,918.891 There's plenty of awful recruiting stations and there's plenty of times where recruiting can be miserable. 100 00:11:16,478.89 --> 00:11:18,738.89 but you get to go home every night to your family. 101 00:11:19,128.891 --> 00:11:20,438.8905 You're not out in the field. 102 00:11:20,438.8905 --> 00:11:21,478.892 You're not going to NTC. 103 00:11:22,228.891 --> 00:11:26,219.891 not doing, you know, Yeah. 104 00:11:26,338.891 --> 00:11:29,438.891 crazy field exercises. 105 00:11:29,768.891 --> 00:11:32,828.891 It doesn't, it doesn't happen in recruiting command. 106 00:11:33,328.891 --> 00:11:41,807.891 So it is I was gonna say, so reflecting almost 20 years of recruiting service you know, I'm sure you've, as you've noted, you've 20 years in January. 107 00:11:42,43.891 --> 00:11:42,633.891 There you go. 108 00:11:42,703.891 --> 00:11:52,393.891 So, and you've, you've encountered a lot of those combat guys, you know, cause a lot of people that come through army recruiting for listeners who are not aware they're not volunteers. 109 00:11:52,403.891 --> 00:11:56,693.891 A lot of them are just told like, Hey, you know, this is a career broadening assignment. 110 00:11:57,13.89 --> 00:11:59,253.891 So not a lot of folks are happy to be there. 111 00:11:59,763.891 --> 00:12:01,883.891 Least of which sometimes are the combat guys. 112 00:12:01,893.891 --> 00:12:29,903.991 So in, in your nearly 20 years of experience, how has that dynamic played out? How have you been able to, to manage you know, from from an administrative standpoint, a leadership standpoint, even from a social standpoint, like you've been intermixed for the last 20 years with, you know, a lot of straight up, you know, shoot people in the face kind of combat guys that are now in hometown USA working for you. 113 00:12:30,303.991 --> 00:12:41,823.99 How has that dynamic played out and how have you managed? You know, what are some lessons learned that you've had to manage that dynamic of kind of being the opposite? But being having to work with and manage you know, your opposites. 114 00:12:42,823.99 --> 00:12:46,763.99 People are people. 115 00:12:46,763.99 --> 00:12:58,893.99 I mean, you got to treat them as a, humans and each person is going to have their own needs and wants and desires. 116 00:12:59,283.99 --> 00:13:40,373.99 One of the things that kind of makes the army and, you know, of recruiting too unique is that we can really look out for our, the people in our Organization from, you know, if, if you're not in the military and you're kind of looking at from either a human resources or a managerial point of view, the people that are in your employee or working for you, you can really look out for them in a way that you can't in a civilian world. 117 00:13:40,373.99 --> 00:13:46,603.99 You're looking out for not just their work ethic or how, what you can get out of them, but you're. 118 00:13:46,968.99 --> 00:13:50,648.99 Looking out for their, their whole well being. 119 00:13:50,658.99 --> 00:13:58,18.99 You're looking out not just for how hard they're working or where you can get out of them, but making sure that they're taking care of their family. 120 00:13:58,28.99 --> 00:14:08,518.99 You make sure they're continuing their education or preparing for when they retire or whether they're going to get out of the military after this assignment or for their, when they get back to their. 121 00:14:09,153.99 --> 00:14:13,893.99 Combat arms job, if that's what they're going to do, because some people are going to want to go back to the combat arms job. 122 00:14:13,913.99 --> 00:14:19,943.99 Some people are going to stay in recruiting, so you're going to have to help them prepare to take on the next recruiting assignment. 123 00:14:20,459.99 --> 00:14:25,589.99 Have you ever had, you know, as Have you ever had challenges and you know, people think you're too soft. 124 00:14:25,979.99 --> 00:14:30,619.99 People accuse you of being too easy on people, too, too laid back. 125 00:14:30,909.99 --> 00:14:52,733.988 Has that ever caused issues or, you know, had those accusations thrown at you? I know I have but what have, what have you been some of your experiences you know, coming from a completely different background? accused me of being, yeah, I don't think anyone's ever accused me of being too laid back or anything like that. 126 00:14:53,733.988 --> 00:15:05,963.989 had the experience, you know, even though I was never, Infantry or common arms, anything like that, you know, being civil affairs kind of gives you a unique experience. 127 00:15:06,838.989 --> 00:15:12,818.989 a support MOS because solo affairs, you're when you deploy with solo affairs, you deploy with all these guys. 128 00:15:12,828.989 --> 00:15:17,318.989 So a lot of times we could share a lot of similar experiences. 129 00:15:17,968.989 --> 00:15:22,638.989 And that kind of gave me some credit. 130 00:15:22,928.99 --> 00:15:24,168.99 In that regard. 131 00:15:25,98.99 --> 00:15:33,218.99 then, you know, I didn't let myself get too soft, right? You know, I was still able to maintain my physical fitness. 132 00:15:33,278.99 --> 00:15:39,728.99 I was still able to hang with those infantry guys, those artillery guys, as much as I could. 133 00:15:40,248.991 --> 00:15:43,698.99 I was always trying to prove myself by going to boards or. 134 00:15:44,863.991 --> 00:15:55,934.991 You know, getting that 270 on the PT test when I was a 270 on the PT test to say, Hey, look, you know, I can still hang with you guys as much as I without, you know, Sure. 135 00:15:56,124.991 --> 00:15:57,713.991 Do you feel that, too stupid. 136 00:15:58,164.991 --> 00:16:18,544.99 do you feel that having that you know, the combat patch from Iraq, do you think that helped with in terms of, you know, the, the trash talk, the sibling rivalry, kind of the, you know, the peer to peer respect compared to some of your peers like me, who has a Kuwait patch you know, obviously there's a lot, you know, you know, I've heard it all. 137 00:16:18,544.99 --> 00:16:19,564.99 That's not a deployment. 138 00:16:19,564.99 --> 00:16:20,324.99 It doesn't count. 139 00:16:20,324.99 --> 00:16:20,434.99 Yeah. 140 00:16:20,799.99 --> 00:16:24,929.99 You know, I mean, obviously it's a completely different experience and Oh input. 141 00:16:26,793.99 --> 00:16:31,813.99 mean, you know, it also depends on, you know, I, I've been doing this for a long time. 142 00:16:33,73.99 --> 00:16:35,33.99 and I've seen it come in cycles too. 143 00:16:35,523.99 --> 00:16:37,713.99 It all depends on who you're working with. 144 00:16:37,713.99 --> 00:16:38,793.99 Everyone's gonna be different. 145 00:16:39,293.99 --> 00:16:40,763.99 Some people care, some people don't. 146 00:16:40,823.99 --> 00:16:44,999.99 Some people are gonna be a little more emotionally intelligent than Mm hmm. 147 00:16:45,43.99 --> 00:16:50,253.99 people are gonna be, you know, understand that, Hey, look, you know, everyone's career is gonna be different. 148 00:16:50,253.99 --> 00:16:57,343.99 Not everyone's gonna have those opportunities, but some people are gonna say, Hey, look, you know, where were you? Who were you deployed with? Okay, yep. 149 00:16:57,403.99 --> 00:16:58,273.99 We deployed together. 150 00:16:58,273.99 --> 00:16:59,113.99 You're, you're cool. 151 00:16:59,119.99 --> 00:16:59,419.99 Yeah. 152 00:16:59,493.99 --> 00:17:02,188.99 Some people are like, you've never deployed to anywhere worth a damn. 153 00:17:02,968.99 --> 00:17:03,868.99 just not going to respect you. 154 00:17:03,868.99 --> 00:17:06,18.99 Bottom line, some people are going to be like that. 155 00:17:06,89.99 --> 00:17:06,449.99 Yeah. 156 00:17:06,558.99 --> 00:17:06,968.99 Yeah. 157 00:17:07,107.99 --> 00:17:12,327.989 it's just the, just the way it is, but you know, I have PTSD. 158 00:17:12,327.99 --> 00:17:14,667.99 This is a real thing that I deal with every day. 159 00:17:14,849.09 --> 00:17:14,923.89 hmm. 160 00:17:15,107.99 --> 00:17:18,487.99 So I can relate a little bit better with people that have bad PTSD. 161 00:17:19,752.99 --> 00:17:30,843.99 That, that's something that I think, you know, gives me a little bit of ability to just kind of Hey, look, I know what you're dealing with Mm hmm. 162 00:17:31,702.99 --> 00:17:42,312.99 You know, every two weeks I'm sitting there with, you know, either in group therapy or with my therapist, you know, you know, talking about, you know, what, what's bugging me this week. 163 00:17:42,952.99 --> 00:17:44,22.99 I know what you're dealing with. 164 00:17:45,472.99 --> 00:17:47,142.99 I tried dealing with it myself too long. 165 00:17:47,152.99 --> 00:17:48,762.99 You know, let's, let's get you fixed. 166 00:17:50,923.99 --> 00:17:51,433.99 Absolutely. 167 00:17:51,433.99 --> 00:18:03,303.99 So it sounds like your background, you're kind of in multiple places on that that grid that we have, you know, because obviously you've had, you know, some experiences that someone like me have not had. 168 00:18:03,593.99 --> 00:18:08,23.99 You've had a very different, you know, we have damn near identical timelines. 169 00:18:08,163.99 --> 00:18:13,393.99 We have almost, you know, very similar to career paths down to when we deployed. 170 00:18:13,698.99 --> 00:18:20,628.99 Down to when we, you know, we were in training, you know, our whole careers married each mirrored each other very closely. 171 00:18:20,928.99 --> 00:18:24,58.99 But we had very different overall experiences. 172 00:18:24,558.99 --> 00:18:35,478.991 You know, especially with with your experience in Iraq versus me working in the top in, you know, a hospital in Kosovo or a naval port in Kuwait, you know, not having to. 173 00:18:35,763.991 --> 00:18:36,493.991 To deal with that. 174 00:18:36,513.991 --> 00:18:49,713.891 So obviously, you know, where we're going to plot ourselves on that grid you know, even us, you know, as, as close as can be in terms of parallels are drastically different of where we're going to plot our experiences. 175 00:18:49,713.991 --> 00:19:00,663.991 You know, we can probably both agree on our USAREC, you know, our army recruiting experience, but before that pretty drastic, pretty drastic differences, and that definitely helps shape us. 176 00:19:02,57.991 --> 00:19:08,347.991 yeah, look, I look at that grid there and, you know, being civil affairs, I don't know how physically demanding civil affairs was. 177 00:19:10,227.991 --> 00:19:19,947.991 I mean, there were definitely some days where we were out all day, you know, when we were deployed, we did two missions a day, sometimes three missions a day. 178 00:19:20,37.99 --> 00:19:22,517.991 Were they demanding? I don't know if they were demanding. 179 00:19:22,937.991 --> 00:19:27,687.991 You know, we were out there assessing, you know, work sites. 180 00:19:27,687.991 --> 00:19:29,897.99 We were out there at the different. 181 00:19:30,542.991 --> 00:19:33,122.991 You know, mayor cells or whatever. 182 00:19:33,532.991 --> 00:19:39,502.991 Know, I did spend most of my deployment in Fallujah from 2003, 2004, which was not great. 183 00:19:40,612.991 --> 00:19:41,892.991 It just wasn't a great place to be. 184 00:19:42,232.991 --> 00:19:43,782.992 So was it violent? Yeah. 185 00:19:44,662.992 --> 00:19:46,182.991 The did there was some violence. 186 00:19:46,462.992 --> 00:19:57,702.991 But, know, whenever, as often as we can go with a infantry team or you know, someone with, you know, a lot more gun experience than we had, we went out there. 187 00:19:57,712.991 --> 00:20:02,652.991 Like I said, I went straight from AIT to Iraq. 188 00:20:03,432.991 --> 00:20:07,598.991 There was, Not a whole lot of extra training beyond Yeah. 189 00:20:07,752.991 --> 00:20:12,408.991 So, you know, we, we, there were times that we'd ride out with Bradley's if we could get Yeah. 190 00:20:12,932.991 --> 00:20:20,872.991 we were not people out there trying to you know, throw down with the Mujahideen out there in the desert. 191 00:20:21,262.992 --> 00:20:22,548.992 That wasn't my Yeah. 192 00:20:22,562.992 --> 00:20:23,692.992 we were there to. 193 00:20:26,307.992 --> 00:20:29,457.992 When the hearts and minds and that, that, that's what we were trying to do. 194 00:20:29,477.992 --> 00:20:33,833.892 Spend the Iraqi money UN money whoever's Mm hmm. 195 00:20:33,857.992 --> 00:20:35,587.992 to try to get these people live their lives. 196 00:20:35,753.992 --> 00:20:40,113.992 interesting point that you made there, you said, Hey, that I, you know, I wasn't throwing down. 197 00:20:40,113.992 --> 00:20:41,193.992 That wasn't my job. 198 00:20:41,513.992 --> 00:20:41,833.992 Right. 199 00:20:41,883.992 --> 00:20:55,513.992 So there's so many layers to service that, you know, that we don't even, I don't think consciously think about you're in Iraq, in a war zone, you know, in a violent area, clearly, you know, being exposed seeing things. 200 00:20:55,813.992 --> 00:21:01,433.9915 And even you, you're like, Oh, well there's, you know, there's hardcore guys, you know, they were the ones really doing it. 201 00:21:01,433.9915 --> 00:21:01,583.991 Yeah. 202 00:21:01,798.992 --> 00:21:05,528.992 And then there's me where I'm like, have no, like my weapon was locked up. 203 00:21:05,998.992 --> 00:21:11,308.992 So even me to you, I would say, Oh man, John had like way crazy experience. 204 00:21:11,378.991 --> 00:21:14,928.993 John reserves, you know, you know, deserves way more respect. 205 00:21:14,968.993 --> 00:22:08,934.093 John you know, is the one that, that really had to deal with stuff, you know, whereas if you, you know, you have that same perspective of those combat guys above you, you know, So there's just like, there's so many echelons and I, I don't think there's anything necessarily inherently wrong with that for me to, to, to hold you in a higher regard and then you to hold, you know, you know, to have these kind of different echelons that we regard each other in I think where it, it becomes a problem, which we'll, we'll circle back to later is when we get into this toxic tribalism move when, you know, you know, as, as we'll, we'll dig into in a bit of where it is the line drawn of, you know, having respect for each other, having respect for each other's experiences, you know, putting different people on a pedestal, you know, for example, a recruiter, one that, you know, one thing that I'll I'll, you know, that I've thrown out there, talk to the few people. 206 00:22:09,169.093 --> 00:22:15,799.093 A recruiter, an admin specialist in the reserve you know, we go to basic training, we learn about all these Medal of Honor winners. 207 00:22:16,469.093 --> 00:22:18,329.093 Like, we know, like, that's not for us. 208 00:22:19,119.092 --> 00:22:21,319.093 Like, that's not what we signed up. 209 00:22:21,339.093 --> 00:22:24,869.093 Like, is it possible that we get put in this situation? Sure. 210 00:22:25,149.092 --> 00:22:30,309.092 You know, there are Medal of Honor winners who were, you know, not necessarily combat guys. 211 00:22:30,764.093 --> 00:22:47,264.092 But that's not like the norm, you know, normally it's the people who are equipped, you know, like there's people know like, Hey, I'm going to go out and get a V device, like that was never in the cards or the plan for me, you know, and there's again, nothing wrong with that. 212 00:22:47,304.093 --> 00:22:48,334.092 It's a different experience. 213 00:22:48,394.094 --> 00:22:54,794.093 Like, but that's just not some, there's not like loads of admin specialists or HR guys or recruiters out there. 214 00:22:55,89.093 --> 00:22:59,69.093 Being like, Oh man, I'm totally going to get a V device or win a medal of honor someday. 215 00:22:59,109.093 --> 00:23:01,189.093 Like we know, like that's just not in the cards for us. 216 00:23:01,719.093 --> 00:23:02,739.093 Like, and that's okay. 217 00:23:03,39.093 --> 00:23:11,489.093 You know, but again, there's this whole, you know, toxicity of that can extend past and I'm not talking about like, Oh, hurt feelings. 218 00:23:11,519.094 --> 00:23:13,39.094 Like, Hey, we all got thick skin. 219 00:23:13,39.094 --> 00:23:18,599.094 We're all going to talk trash and, you know, make fun of each other, you know, they, in a sibling rivalry type of way. 220 00:23:18,879.094 --> 00:23:19,559.094 But when it. 221 00:23:19,869.094 --> 00:23:47,443.0925 You know, when it starts crossing lines and devaluing people's service and dipping into, you know, affecting mental health in a very serious way, you know, talking about suicides, things like that you know, I think there is a line in the sand, so to speak that, that I hope that this show and conversations like this can address, of yeah, well, you know, when, when I went to recruiter school, we all used to wear bees at the time. 222 00:23:48,403.0935 --> 00:24:11,353.094 And And you know, you talk about that, that toxicness, right? But when I came back from Iraq you know, I got awarded a V device for some of the missions that we went on and we were wearing bees you know, I'm sitting there in recruiter school with all these guys and they're like, Oh, what'd you get your V device for? I just didn't want to talk about it. 223 00:24:11,903.094 --> 00:24:15,313.093 And I was dealing with, you know, PTSD at the time and stuff. 224 00:24:16,78.094 --> 00:24:17,838.094 I'm like, I'm like, I don't know. 225 00:24:18,308.094 --> 00:24:22,208.094 I don't want to talk and they're like, Oh, you didn't earn it. 226 00:24:22,809.094 --> 00:24:23,79.094 course. 227 00:24:23,818.094 --> 00:24:24,178.094 okay. 228 00:24:25,538.094 --> 00:24:29,638.094 And let me tell you, man, like they, they would get ruthless, man. 229 00:24:30,728.094 --> 00:24:31,418.094 You know, here I am. 230 00:24:31,418.094 --> 00:24:42,8.094 I was 20, I just turned 21 back from Iraq, you know, and here are these guys probably had done back to back tours to Iraq and Afghanistan. 231 00:24:42,548.094 --> 00:24:44,348.094 And they were bad ass infantry guys. 232 00:24:44,408.094 --> 00:24:58,758.194 I'm sure, you know, and man, they, just would, would cut me down and just cause I didn't want to talk about my experiences in Iraq and they never made me feel so right. 233 00:25:00,718.193 --> 00:25:07,318.194 During those times you know, I, I get what you're talking about there and that's even, know, you, you talk about. 234 00:25:08,573.194 --> 00:25:10,333.194 Even having those experiences. 235 00:25:11,93.194 --> 00:25:14,263.194 And, you know, I just, I just never talked about that stuff. 236 00:25:14,453.194 --> 00:25:16,264.194 I didn't want to, I still don't talk about this Yeah. 237 00:25:16,754.194 --> 00:25:17,54.194 Yeah. 238 00:25:17,54.194 --> 00:25:24,974.194 And that's, and you know, we respect your journey and it's and it's unfortunate that that sort of tribalism and elite ism exists. 239 00:25:25,434.194 --> 00:25:36,174.194 You know, it's one thing for, you know, I've, I've grown thick skin in terms of, you know, I have to kind of poke fun at myself, you know, hence kind of the launch of this podcast. 240 00:25:36,744.194 --> 00:25:48,759.194 But I consider myself a little fortunate, you know, like I, I actually had the opportunity to when I was in Kuwait, they said, Hey, we need volunteers to run gun trucks, you know, convoy escort missions up and down Iraq. 241 00:25:49,119.194 --> 00:25:51,499.194 You know, this is 0405 timeframe. 242 00:25:51,869.194 --> 00:25:56,329.194 And I'm, here I am HR guy working in the talk, running spreadsheets, doing briefings. 243 00:25:56,879.194 --> 00:26:02,519.195 You know, and I'm, I've, I was in journalism in high school, you know, Always, always kind of a nerd. 244 00:26:02,529.195 --> 00:26:03,579.195 Still am a little bit. 245 00:26:03,969.195 --> 00:26:06,189.195 So it was one of those, like, I'm good at this. 246 00:26:06,569.195 --> 00:26:11,309.195 I am contributing to the military in a way that is, that is good. 247 00:26:11,529.195 --> 00:26:13,759.195 And I didn't volunteer for gun trucks. 248 00:26:13,789.194 --> 00:26:14,949.195 A lot of other guys did. 249 00:26:14,959.194 --> 00:26:16,49.195 They jumped at the opportunity. 250 00:26:16,299.195 --> 00:26:17,49.195 They're like, hell yeah. 251 00:26:17,49.195 --> 00:26:23,839.194 You know, we're gonna go, you know, blow some shit up and go you know, go kick in some doors and, and, you know, fight the fight. 252 00:26:24,384.195 --> 00:26:32,154.195 I stayed behind and finished my associate's degree in my free time using the the computers and the MWR you know, computers and all that. 253 00:26:33,739.195 --> 00:26:41,109.194 So, and there are some people that are like, Hey, you know, like that's automatic cowardice you know, because I didn't do that. 254 00:26:41,169.195 --> 00:26:49,79.195 I had the opportunity and I passed it up and sometimes it's, you know, I've thought like, Oh, should I have like, but it's just, I'm clumped. 255 00:26:49,99.194 --> 00:26:57,499.195 Like I probably would have gotten somebody else killed or myself killed because I'm, you know, if put in that situation, obviously, obviously I raised my right hand. 256 00:26:57,779.195 --> 00:26:58,959.195 I'm willing to do it. 257 00:26:59,459.195 --> 00:27:11,759.195 But, you know, just that whole perception of, because I didn't put myself in that situation willingly, there was a lot of people that are like, oh, well, you're young, you know, you should be doing that. 258 00:27:11,799.195 --> 00:27:18,9.195 This is a once in a lifetime, you know, you should be fighting the fight, you know, do something real for your country. 259 00:27:18,459.195 --> 00:27:22,199.195 And I did something, I did something different for my country. 260 00:27:22,629.195 --> 00:27:36,669.195 You know, I did something drastically different for my country and I've, you know, and I'm, I'm at peace with that and I've learned to poke fun of it, you know, and I've learned to just accept like, ah, you know, but at the same time, you know, people say, Oh, thank you for your service. 261 00:27:36,729.195 --> 00:27:49,129.195 I'm like, I didn't really do anything like, you know, like I lived, but again, My, you know, talking to my wife, like I lived in a tent, you know, a big tent with you know, six or seven other dudes for a year. 262 00:27:49,459.195 --> 00:28:04,699.195 It was an air conditioned tent, so it was luxury, you know, by military standards, but from like a civilian perspective, my wife thinks I'm like insane for saying like, Oh, you lived in a tent on like a wooden cot that you built like that. 263 00:28:04,749.195 --> 00:28:19,394.195 And you think that that's not like out of the ordinary? And I'm like, well, compared to other people, like as, you know, I might as well have been in a five star hotel, but compared to, compared to, you know, a combat guy or compared to what you went through. 264 00:28:19,799.195 --> 00:28:32,309.195 You know, it's, it's just so weird, but you know, when you kind of take it all away and compare it to civilians, we all did something, but we all have these like, you know, imposter syndrome to deal with. 265 00:28:32,349.194 --> 00:28:36,128.196 We all have our own kind of, of absolutely. 266 00:28:36,309.196 --> 00:28:38,139.196 own journeys and our things to deal with. 267 00:28:38,139.196 --> 00:28:56,829.196 And, you know, again, it's, it's fun to, for me, you know, obviously you have a different set of experiences, but I've gotten to the point where I can just kind of look back at the silliness of it all, you know, and that's something that I, I kind of want to segue through, you know, we don't want to be, be all serious. 268 00:28:56,839.196 --> 00:29:08,649.197 So you're, let's let's switch gears a little bit and let's talk about the, the ridiculousness of bureaucracy, you know, so let's, let's dive into your opposite of infantry life for the last 20 years and recruiting. 269 00:29:08,979.197 --> 00:29:19,824.197 So do you have any, like, Movies or shows that you're a big fan of that kind of have like ridiculous bureaucracy or, or office environments my, or scenes. 270 00:29:20,103.197 --> 00:29:33,754.197 shows, Or, or movies, any, you have anything that kind of has like kind of similarities, similarities or anecdotes of what you've experienced in real life from you know, just insane office life or bureaucratic perspective. 271 00:29:35,874.197 --> 00:29:36,994.197 Always love the office. 272 00:29:36,994.197 --> 00:29:37,304.1965 Right. 273 00:29:37,304.1965 --> 00:29:37,945.197 I There you go. 274 00:29:38,54.1965 --> 00:29:39,525.196 doesn't, absolutely. 275 00:29:40,554.197 --> 00:29:46,844.196 I gotta say though, the one that I think was the surprise to me was space force. 276 00:29:46,844.196 --> 00:29:49,14.196 Definitely rang true more than anything. 277 00:29:49,305.197 --> 00:30:01,18.195 Oh, really? Some examples or scenes that, that really stuck out? That was like, Oh my you, that's real, bureaucracy Yeah, the craziness of bureaucracy holding up the wheels of progress. 278 00:30:01,108.195 --> 00:30:03,268.195 I mean, that's, that's I mean, I felt that every time. 279 00:30:03,469.195 --> 00:30:04,549.195 like in your bones. 280 00:30:05,878.194 --> 00:30:06,628.195 Yeah, man. 281 00:30:06,629.195 --> 00:30:15,969.195 So what are some examples from the show that really like stood out any specific scenes or episodes that were like, just right in the gut, like, Oh my goodness. 282 00:30:15,969.295 --> 00:30:18,169.194 This is, this is real life. 283 00:30:18,268.195 --> 00:30:19,58.195 recall any of them. 284 00:30:19,488.194 --> 00:30:19,958.194 Yeah. 285 00:30:19,998.195 --> 00:30:21,628.195 I can't recall any of the top of my head. 286 00:30:21,628.195 --> 00:30:30,718.195 Maybe when like the computer systems had to update and then it just reminded me of when like all of our computers went down and recruiting command for like a Yeah, something like that. 287 00:30:32,238.195 --> 00:30:33,424.195 I'm sure you I do. 288 00:30:33,618.195 --> 00:30:34,718.195 But we couldn't do like anything. 289 00:30:34,718.195 --> 00:30:37,98.195 And then, you know, we still were required to figure it out. 290 00:30:37,528.195 --> 00:30:40,364.195 Because, you know, that's just the way it is, Yeah. 291 00:30:40,428.195 --> 00:30:44,258.195 You know, the computers won't work and the internet was down, but we still had to figure it out with people in the army. 292 00:30:44,414.195 --> 00:30:44,744.195 Yeah. 293 00:30:44,798.195 --> 00:30:52,988.195 And it's you know, we, I don't know, man, I was watching that space force show and it's just so many things. 294 00:30:52,988.195 --> 00:31:02,568.195 I'm like, man, the, they really got the bureaucracy of the military and the way the civilians interact with the military staff and everything like, like down. 295 00:31:02,749.195 --> 00:31:03,279.195 Oh yeah. 296 00:31:03,419.195 --> 00:31:32,324.195 We've just, hit an example that I would say an example, both of us have dealt with is the evolution of like marketing and and social media and how we've incorporated that we've, we've been around to see kind of like the, the rise and evolution and, you know, you, We've, we've talked about this, you know, we've seen, we've both been a part of some of the big programs that have helped launch it and man, is it ever, you know, like pulling teeth, like convincing people who have. 297 00:31:32,824.195 --> 00:31:47,544.195 You know, I mean, ostensibly no recruiting background, no marketing background, but you know, the way the military works and they rotate folks in from a wide variety of backgrounds to lead and we have to convince people that, Hey, this is a good idea. 298 00:31:47,934.195 --> 00:31:51,124.195 And they're like, no, no, we're not going to do that. 299 00:31:52,124.195 --> 00:31:53,74.195 it's the way it is. 300 00:31:54,914.195 --> 00:31:55,444.195 I don't know. 301 00:31:55,514.195 --> 00:32:00,34.195 I really, yeah, that, that show, Mike, man, that show gets it. 302 00:32:00,50.195 --> 00:32:05,694.195 Yeah, so what about you said the office is one of your favorites Is there any like scenes or Yeah. 303 00:32:05,704.195 --> 00:32:10,404.195 I or dynamics that you've kind of like related to real world? I mean in recruiting. 304 00:32:10,974.195 --> 00:32:13,474.195 Yeah, in recruiting, you definitely get those friendships. 305 00:32:13,874.195 --> 00:32:21,134.193 Yeah, you feel like you are there in that groundhog day every day trying to just, uh, make it through. 306 00:32:22,604.194 --> 00:32:33,91.694 now, if you had this experience, but I was just in, the bullpen and recruiting, doing the, you know, the phone calls for like five years, and I liked it. 307 00:32:33,141.694 --> 00:32:34,411.694 I didn't have any problems with it. 308 00:32:35,31.694 --> 00:32:52,291.693 But man, it gets boring and you got to do things just to keep yourself entertained and you know, the shenanigans that you get into sometimes it's, you know, Yeah, so I miss I'll be honest I miss some of the old pranks, you know nowadays they'd say it's hazing I broke up there for a second. 309 00:32:52,291.693 --> 00:32:52,581.693 Sorry. 310 00:32:53,162.693 --> 00:33:10,137.693 would say I miss the old shenanigans, you know Some of the stuff that modern now we would say is hazing but you know, the old you know, the old things that we used to do to each other when you got your first contract all the, the office pranks that surrounded that, you know, that kind of rite of passage. 311 00:33:10,223.2082857 --> 00:33:17,637.694 never say all the stuff that we used to, I'll never say out loud all the stuff that we used to do, but we definitely had a good time in the old days, but, Oh yeah. 312 00:33:17,937.694 --> 00:33:32,947.794 I mean, even some of the milder stuff that you'd see in the office, you know, the show, like where we, you know, fill, fill each other's drawers full of, of random stuff you know, I remember one person that, everyone came in early and like covered someone's gov completely in post it notes. 313 00:33:33,547.794 --> 00:33:35,353.794 Yeah, definitely doing that a couple of yep. 314 00:33:35,883.794 --> 00:33:38,773.793 So again, you know, and that's, that's some of the milder ones. 315 00:33:38,773.793 --> 00:33:46,373.7935 We can talk off camera about some of the some of the other stuff that we did that were nope, never going to talk about it, taking it to the taking it to the grave. 316 00:33:46,423.7935 --> 00:33:46,643.7935 Yeah. 317 00:33:46,653.7925 --> 00:33:49,133.8925 And again, you know, and a mild one I'll talk about. 318 00:33:49,143.8925 --> 00:33:55,53.8925 There was an office I was in where it was a tradition where we had like one of those mega bottles of hot sauce. 319 00:33:55,53.8925 --> 00:33:59,383.8925 It was like a billion Scoville rating, you know, one of those like ridiculous ones. 320 00:33:59,833.8925 --> 00:34:09,283.8925 So the, you know, the concept of the, the kind of rite of passage, you had to like put a drop on your finger and put it right on your tongue, you know? And that was like, you know, and it was fun. 321 00:34:09,293.8925 --> 00:34:10,233.8925 We had fun with them. 322 00:34:10,283.8925 --> 00:34:12,153.8925 Kind of like it shifted over the years. 323 00:34:12,183.8925 --> 00:34:13,203.8925 People stopped doing it. 324 00:34:13,203.8925 --> 00:34:14,93.8925 They didn't want to do it. 325 00:34:14,93.8925 --> 00:34:14,803.8925 They said it was hazing. 326 00:34:15,483.8925 --> 00:34:16,803.8935 You know, I had fun with it. 327 00:34:16,833.8935 --> 00:34:25,273.8935 You know, we had We also had people that would take it and they would put it on a napkin and like buff it into the outer edge of a coffee cup. 328 00:34:25,663.8935 --> 00:34:31,3.8935 So you'd go to sip your coffee and immediately it would like get onto your lips in your coffee. 329 00:34:31,393.8935 --> 00:34:34,333.8925 So you, you know, and again, stupid little stuff. 330 00:34:34,373.8925 --> 00:34:35,593.8935 That's, that's minor. 331 00:34:36,183.8935 --> 00:34:42,643.8935 But it was like like shining boots, you know, people would come in early to, like, buff hot sauce into each other's coffee cups. 332 00:34:43,203.8935 --> 00:34:49,393.8935 Like, you know, the just mundane, random stuff, like you said, to get through the Groundhog Day to mess with each other. 333 00:34:51,407.8935 --> 00:34:53,343.8935 that's what it was, yeah, Yeah. 334 00:34:53,823.8935 --> 00:34:54,298.6935 But it's it's fun. 335 00:34:54,298.8935 --> 00:35:01,832.7935 Yeah, when we started recruiting, I mean, you worked, you Oh, eight o'clock in the morning to eight o'clock at night. 336 00:35:01,832.7935 --> 00:35:03,202.7935 I mean, those are long days. 337 00:35:03,552.7935 --> 00:35:05,462.7935 Definitely, definitely has changed. 338 00:35:05,502.7935 --> 00:35:08,732.7935 So you've, you've made a name for yourself over these last 20 years. 339 00:35:08,752.7935 --> 00:35:12,372.6601667 You've you've become kind of the de facto leader. 340 00:35:12,392.6601667 --> 00:35:22,712.6591667 There's a AGR Facebook group for the, for the reserve recruiters that you've kind of ascended to be, you know, the, the leader and almost kind of like, you know, cheerleader mentor. 341 00:35:22,912.6591667 --> 00:35:24,732.6591667 For this entire niche community. 342 00:35:25,916.6591667 --> 00:35:27,876.6581667 cheerleader, perhaps not a leader. 343 00:35:27,876.6591667 --> 00:35:29,156.6581667 And I don't know, Well, cheerleader. 344 00:35:29,176.6591667 --> 00:35:32,662.6591667 I like cheerleader more yeah, you've generated a lot of respect. 345 00:35:32,662.6591667 --> 00:35:43,182.6591667 You've generated a lot of of influence to the point to where generals command teams are majors at all levels at the highest levels of use directive, you've kind of become a go to guy. 346 00:35:43,482.6591667 --> 00:35:46,602.6591667 You were a talent manager for for army reserve recruiters. 347 00:35:46,652.6591667 --> 00:36:06,232.6581667 So you got a behind the scenes curtain you know, behind the curtain look about, you know, the, the real bureaucracy, you know, the, the way up stuff of, of how we get moved around and assigned but again, from, from town hall support to, to getting information to kind of rallying the troops within our new niche community. 348 00:36:06,916.6581667 --> 00:36:06,996.6581667 loud. 349 00:36:06,996.7581667 --> 00:36:07,846.5571667 Yes. 350 00:36:07,846.6571667 --> 00:36:08,716.6571667 I'm very loud. 351 00:36:08,982.6581667 --> 00:36:16,822.6581667 So talk to us, how did you get, how did you get to be that guy? You know, because in, you know, within the, the army reserve recruiting community. 352 00:36:17,282.6581667 --> 00:36:26,622.6581667 Like you're the man, like you're the one that ever, you know, from the new recruiter that wants to learn that joins a Facebook group to the commanding general and the deputy generals. 353 00:36:26,672.6571667 --> 00:36:28,372.6581667 Like you're the guy that everyone goes to. 354 00:36:28,561.6581667 --> 00:36:37,751.6581667 So it comes, all that comes from just wanting change to happen and being loud. 355 00:36:37,881.6581667 --> 00:36:48,591.6581667 So I had the opportunity to go to Fort Knox 2017, 2018. 356 00:36:49,191.6581667 --> 00:36:52,671.6581667 I was originally selected to be a instructor there. 357 00:36:53,806.6581667 --> 00:37:04,342.6581667 but at that same time, the talent manager who had been the talent manager for 10 years or something like that Sergeant Russo, Hey, him, he brought me into recruiting. 358 00:37:04,506.6581667 --> 00:37:06,156.6571667 he, sure. 359 00:37:06,196.6581667 --> 00:37:06,826.6571667 Yeah, yeah, he did. 360 00:37:06,846.6581667 --> 00:37:08,66.6581667 He, he hired me too. 361 00:37:08,336.6581667 --> 00:37:12,536.6571667 But he was retiring and he's like, Hey, just so happens I'm retiring. 362 00:37:12,931.6581667 --> 00:37:20,321.6581667 How about you come to headquarters instead of going to the schoolhouse? I said, what sounds like a great opportunity to me. 363 00:37:20,732.6581667 --> 00:37:21,62.6581667 Yeah. 364 00:37:21,891.6581667 --> 00:37:30,521.6571667 So I took the opportunity and one of the things that I saw was that. 365 00:37:31,211.6581667 --> 00:37:38,861.6581667 There was a lot of information up at headquarters that was just not getting down to team else. 366 00:37:39,801.6581667 --> 00:37:46,511.6581667 And there was a Facebook group that sorry, first class Turner, who is now retired. 367 00:37:46,672.6591667 --> 00:37:47,122.6581667 Love her. 368 00:37:47,512.6581667 --> 00:37:48,42.6581667 Legend. 369 00:37:48,42.7581667 --> 00:37:54,666.6581667 So Now retired though, she still runs the Facebook group. 370 00:37:54,666.6581667 --> 00:37:55,766.6581667 I just help her out. 371 00:37:57,586.6581667 --> 00:38:05,436.6581667 but she had started this Facebook group for only AGR soldiers and recruiting commands, and I said, Hey, how about. 372 00:38:05,811.6581667 --> 00:38:16,291.6581667 I help you admin it, and I will start posting stuff as I find it out from Headquarters Recruiting Command, and she said, okay. 373 00:38:16,901.6571667 --> 00:38:19,751.6581667 So I got, I would get the okay from the G1 team. 374 00:38:20,511.6571667 --> 00:38:22,961.6571667 I said, I will, I'm going to post this information. 375 00:38:23,431.6581667 --> 00:38:24,961.6581667 And they were okay with that. 376 00:38:24,961.6581667 --> 00:38:28,11.6581667 Cause I was already going TDY across the country, sharing this information. 377 00:38:28,601.6581667 --> 00:38:31,41.6581667 And I'm like, Hey, I'm going to start sharing it on Facebook as well. 378 00:38:31,481.6581667 --> 00:38:33,251.6581667 And they're like, yeah, that's great. 379 00:38:33,711.6571667 --> 00:38:41,821.6591667 And then I started doing my own little, I wouldn't say town halls, but I would do my briefs that I was doing to the. 380 00:38:42,156.6581667 --> 00:38:44,716.6581667 Different battalions and brigade head gate trainings. 381 00:38:45,216.6581667 --> 00:38:47,966.6581667 I would start doing them on teams as well. 382 00:38:47,996.6581667 --> 00:38:51,746.6581667 Not teams, but on Facebook before we really had teams. 383 00:38:52,176.6581667 --> 00:38:57,146.6591667 So I started doing that and I would do it as often as I could. 384 00:38:57,146.6591667 --> 00:39:01,966.6591667 I think we started doing it Once a quarter or twice a year or something like that. 385 00:39:02,57.6591667 --> 00:39:03,997.6591667 you're almost breaking bureaucracy. 386 00:39:04,87.6591667 --> 00:39:22,37.6581667 So you, you took the, you took the bureaucracy straight to the people, you know, you, you, you've kind of chopped out all the layers and says, Hey, I'm just gonna, you know, take all this this stuff that's sitting up here at the head shed and, and kind of be the mass distributor, the inside guy for, you know, for this niche group. 387 00:39:22,37.7581667 --> 00:39:26,52.5581667 Sure. 388 00:39:26,136.6581667 --> 00:39:34,896.6581667 a hand because it used to be an HR handbook I want to put together a handbook and was changing so rapidly at the time. 389 00:39:34,946.6581667 --> 00:39:37,916.6581667 There are a lot of big changes happening, things moving to HRC. 390 00:39:38,416.6581667 --> 00:39:39,936.6581667 IPSA was coming on. 391 00:39:40,366.6581667 --> 00:39:42,16.6581667 They're like, no, you don't want to do a handbook. 392 00:39:42,436.6581667 --> 00:39:49,226.6581667 I'm like, well, if we're not doing a handbook, can I just share the information that we have as it comes out on Facebook? And they said, yeah, sure. 393 00:39:49,226.6581667 --> 00:39:51,536.6581667 You're sharing already going to the wild time. 394 00:39:51,536.6581667 --> 00:39:54,46.6571667 You can share your same stuff there. 395 00:39:55,426.6581667 --> 00:40:02,996.6581667 So doing that, then I'll be like, you know what? I think people are going to start getting bored with the information that I'm sharing just from G1. 396 00:40:03,476.6581667 --> 00:40:06,36.6581667 So then I would find other people to share information from. 397 00:40:06,46.6581667 --> 00:40:07,896.6581667 So I would go over to retention. 398 00:40:07,906.6581667 --> 00:40:15,146.6581667 I would go over to proponent that would do, you know, the briefs on how to get promoted. 399 00:40:15,606.6581667 --> 00:40:19,526.6581667 I would go over to G3 like what you need to do to get trained up. 400 00:40:19,566.6581667 --> 00:40:23,766.6581667 And just find guest speakers to do different presentations. 401 00:40:24,626.6581667 --> 00:40:26,976.6581667 So then I would do that. 402 00:40:28,226.6581667 --> 00:40:32,156.6581667 So I did that for a while, and then comes time for me to PCS. 403 00:40:34,616.6581667 --> 00:40:40,456.6581667 So I PCS down to, Raleigh, North Carolina to be a guidance counselor. 404 00:40:41,526.6581667 --> 00:40:53,326.6586667 And what really kind of happens is, you know, I am selfish and I need to make sure that I am looking good. 405 00:40:53,326.6586667 --> 00:40:53,656.6586667 Right. 406 00:40:54,6.6586667 --> 00:40:58,326.5576667 And that's not totally true, but it makes for a good story. 407 00:40:58,726.5576667 --> 00:41:04,816.5576667 I'm like, man, I need to do some other things to make myself look as a guidance Yeah, yeah no, no one else is doing these briefs anymore. 408 00:41:04,826.5576667 --> 00:41:06,476.5576667 You yeah, no one's doing the briefs. 409 00:41:07,322.5576667 --> 00:41:12,806.5576667 you left and kind of everything stopped Everything stopped on my left. 410 00:41:12,806.5576667 --> 00:41:13,46.5576667 Yeah. 411 00:41:13,436.5576667 --> 00:41:15,806.5576667 So, and I don't remember exactly how it happened. 412 00:41:18,596.5576667 --> 00:41:21,376.5576667 I might have just emailed General Vareen. 413 00:41:21,716.5576667 --> 00:41:24,902.5576667 It might have just you just shot an email to the commanding general. 414 00:41:24,902.5576667 --> 00:41:27,976.5576667 Hey, sir no, no different. 415 00:41:27,976.5576667 --> 00:41:31,97.5576667 Different different General Reen, the Brigade, Brier General, okay. 416 00:41:31,301.5576667 --> 00:41:32,411.5576667 Brier, general Davis. 417 00:41:32,411.5576667 --> 00:41:32,531.5576667 Yeah. 418 00:41:32,531.5576667 --> 00:41:33,697.5566667 Might Brier General Yeah. 419 00:41:33,697.5566667 --> 00:41:33,887.5566667 Yeah. 420 00:41:34,121.5576667 --> 00:41:36,357.5576667 I might have sent an email straight to, Yeah. 421 00:41:36,357.6576667 --> 00:41:37,45.5776667 Mm hmm. 422 00:41:37,45.5776667 --> 00:41:37,733.4976667 Mm hmm. 423 00:41:37,733.4976667 --> 00:41:39,831.5576667 Mm the, at the time I might. 424 00:41:41,496.5576667 --> 00:41:45,206.5576667 I am a this is what I used to do. 425 00:41:47,336.5576667 --> 00:41:50,516.5566667 I would love to continue doing this. 426 00:41:51,16.5566667 --> 00:41:58,116.4566667 And I was also doing a lot of videos online for master recruiter badge stuff. 427 00:41:58,796.4566667 --> 00:42:03,796.4566667 Doing like quarterly videos for the master recruiter badge, maybe monthly videos from master recruiter badge. 428 00:42:04,316.4566667 --> 00:42:05,686.4566667 Well, Hey, this is what I'm doing. 429 00:42:05,786.4566667 --> 00:42:08,527.4566667 Would you be interested in doing this as hmm. 430 00:42:08,991.4566667 --> 00:42:11,387.4556667 And I sent her a couple different ideas, Sure. 431 00:42:11,397.4556667 --> 00:42:11,757.4556667 Sure. 432 00:42:11,981.4566667 --> 00:42:26,211.4566667 but the one that she really, one that she really liked was the town halls and the weekly updates that we get out, you know, once every month or so That's about right for the military weekly updates once a month. 433 00:42:26,301.4566667 --> 00:42:27,691.4566667 That's about right for the military. 434 00:42:28,435.4566667 --> 00:42:36,825.4566667 the weekly updates that we get out once a Yeah So I was working with her to get her the information to put out the weekly updates, which would sometimes get put out, which was great. 435 00:42:36,835.4566667 --> 00:42:40,251.4566667 You know, we highlight who are doing great things across the Mm hmm. 436 00:42:40,665.4556667 --> 00:42:45,405.4566667 And I was really trying to work with the brigade training shops and great operations. 437 00:42:46,65.4566667 --> 00:42:55,696.4566667 get them to reach out to the battalion operations to give me good news So mind you so for the listeners today soldiers, but Yeah, so mind you this is as an additional duty. 438 00:42:55,756.4566667 --> 00:42:57,126.4566667 This isn't your regular job. 439 00:42:57,136.4566667 --> 00:43:18,305.4556667 You're doing this on the side at this point yeah I'm doing all this on the side, right? So i'm a station commander now I at this point i have now transitioned from being a guidance counselor again to being a station commander So I just left rally Station, guidance counselor shop and now i'm a station commander again down the street, still in Raleigh. 440 00:43:19,195.4556667 --> 00:43:20,705.4556667 So now I'm like emailing everybody. 441 00:43:20,705.4556667 --> 00:43:22,435.4556667 I'm like, Hey, help me out here. 442 00:43:22,435.4556667 --> 00:43:26,535.4556667 I'm trying to highlight good news stories for AGR soldiers. 443 00:43:28,695.4556667 --> 00:43:31,95.4546667 And I still, I know everybody still. 444 00:43:31,135.4556667 --> 00:43:36,155.4556667 Cause I just, for whatever reason, I made it my point just to know everybody. 445 00:43:36,705.4556667 --> 00:43:38,505.4556667 And I know how to find out everybody. 446 00:43:38,505.4556667 --> 00:43:39,205.4556667 So if. 447 00:43:39,760.4556667 --> 00:43:47,330.4556667 I need to know who all the operations NCOs are, NCOs are for different brigades or battalions. 448 00:43:47,330.4556667 --> 00:43:49,140.4556667 I know how to find, look up that information. 449 00:43:49,570.4556667 --> 00:43:50,450.4556667 It's not that hard. 450 00:43:50,770.4556667 --> 00:44:12,221.4546667 It just takes extra Yeah, and that's just kind of rolled that just kept rolling for for a year because I mean Recently, I know general hawkett still reaches out to your you know You still got your your ties to the like you're still the guy all these years later so what you've started and kind of how you've you know, conditioned yourself as the guy is awesome. 451 00:44:14,120.4546667 --> 00:44:21,660.4546667 it becomes a thing that is really easy to maintain because I've already done all the legwork for it. 452 00:44:22,141.4546667 --> 00:44:22,591.4546667 absolutely. 453 00:44:22,591.5546667 --> 00:44:24,461.3536667 Yeah. 454 00:44:24,650.4546667 --> 00:44:25,860.4536667 look, call us right hand. 455 00:44:25,860.4546667 --> 00:44:29,600.4546667 If you want to keep doing this and everyone likes to keep doing it, you know, they just call us right hand. 456 00:44:29,601.4536667 --> 00:44:33,470.4546667 So And whenever anyone says, Hey, you know, I want to help you out with this. 457 00:44:33,530.4546667 --> 00:44:34,430.4546667 I get so excited. 458 00:44:34,430.4546667 --> 00:44:35,310.4546667 I'm like, yeah, please. 459 00:44:35,620.4546667 --> 00:44:36,800.4546667 I'm going to retire someday. 460 00:44:36,911.4546667 --> 00:44:37,211.4546667 Yeah. 461 00:44:37,300.4546667 --> 00:44:39,630.4546667 Please, you You own, from my, from me. 462 00:44:39,851.4536667 --> 00:44:40,711.4536667 you almost did. 463 00:44:40,780.4541667 --> 00:44:41,420.4546667 the work that I do. 464 00:44:41,420.5546667 --> 00:44:43,426.4546667 I'm really proud We take a minute. 465 00:44:43,456.4546667 --> 00:44:44,286.4546667 Talk about that. 466 00:44:44,286.5546667 --> 00:44:47,716.4546667 You started, you started I your transition classes. 467 00:44:47,776.4546667 --> 00:44:49,126.4546667 Let's, let's, let's touch on that. 468 00:44:49,126.4546667 --> 00:44:49,626.4546667 Just a moment. 469 00:44:49,656.4546667 --> 00:44:55,986.4546667 Just real quick, because I think it's a great, you know, again, very prototypical military of how, how this work. 470 00:44:56,256.4546667 --> 00:44:59,376.4546667 So you started transitioning, right? You started doing your classes. 471 00:45:01,375.4546667 --> 00:45:01,665.4546667 Yeah. 472 00:45:01,665.4546667 --> 00:45:04,25.4546667 I started transitioning in 2023. 473 00:45:04,25.4546667 --> 00:45:07,55.4546667 I was doing all my retirement transition classes in 2023. 474 00:45:08,936.4536667 --> 00:45:09,346.4536667 Yeah. 475 00:45:09,576.4546667 --> 00:45:24,676.4546667 And then what week 1, literally what the 1st week that you start doing your classes, if I remember correctly, right? What happens? Yeah, then, yeah, you know, the the most qualified list comes out and I'm right there at the Congratulations. 476 00:45:24,715.4536667 --> 00:45:27,585.4541667 I got to make, yeah, I got to make that decision. 477 00:45:27,585.4541667 --> 00:45:27,895.4536667 Right. 478 00:45:27,945.4546667 --> 00:45:35,46.4546667 So your wife take that when you'd already made a family decision to retire and then you make the promotion list just as you start the process. 479 00:45:36,635.4546667 --> 00:45:37,325.4546667 Next topic. 480 00:45:37,325.5546667 --> 00:45:39,556.4546667 Let's let's, let's not, We'll skip that. 481 00:45:39,936.4536667 --> 00:45:40,796.4536667 Eight by tens. 482 00:45:40,845.4536667 --> 00:45:46,336.4526667 get How did those come about? Tell, tell for those, you know, again, a lot of our listeners might not know. 483 00:45:46,556.4536667 --> 00:45:53,276.4536667 So you do these signed eight by tens and it's actually kind of, kind of been a collector's item in in recruiting command. 484 00:45:53,316.4536667 --> 00:46:05,275.4536667 So how did the sign that Sergeant hand eight by tens come about? And how many of those actually are out there floating around? started about 10 years ago. 485 00:46:05,321.4536667 --> 00:46:05,941.4536667 Whoa. 486 00:46:06,491.4536667 --> 00:46:07,531.4536667 Maybe longer than that. 487 00:46:08,601.4536667 --> 00:46:15,497.4536667 so I used to do a lot of boards and it started off when I would, as a joke, it started Of course. 488 00:46:16,47.4536667 --> 00:46:21,557.4536667 Cause I ended up having, I went to a board just had too many DA photos. 489 00:46:22,977.4536667 --> 00:46:29,837.4536667 And actually, you know, it actually started before that it became a board thing, but it was one of those things that we did in the recruitment station. 490 00:46:29,953.4536666 --> 00:46:30,353.4536666 Mm. 491 00:46:30,677.4536667 --> 00:46:31,517.4536667 Once the back. 492 00:46:31,557.4536667 --> 00:46:38,893.4536666 So whenever we'd have a change of command or, you know, new start major, we take the picture Mm. 493 00:46:38,893.5536666 --> 00:46:40,363.4536666 Mm. 494 00:46:40,363.4536666 --> 00:46:41,833.3536666 Yeah. 495 00:46:42,487.4536667 --> 00:46:45,927.4536667 To whichever love general. 496 00:46:45,967.4536667 --> 00:46:54,77.4536667 So, and so I'd leave it on their desk and they, know, the first couple of times they'd be very confused why they get a signed letter from a general on their desk. 497 00:46:54,907.4536667 --> 00:46:58,897.4526667 then I went to a board one time and for whatever reason, I just had way too many. 498 00:46:59,752.4536667 --> 00:46:59,972.4536667 D. 499 00:46:59,972.4536667 --> 00:47:00,72.4536667 A. 500 00:47:00,82.4536667 --> 00:47:00,842.4536667 Photos. 501 00:47:01,742.4536667 --> 00:47:09,503.4536666 so I just signed one of them and gave it to one of the first artists that was on the board that was just friendly with, Yeah. 502 00:47:09,952.4536667 --> 00:47:14,272.4536667 as a, as a joke, and he gave it to the president of the board this art major. 503 00:47:14,443.4526666 --> 00:47:15,223.4536666 That's awesome. 504 00:47:15,577.4536667 --> 00:47:17,523.4536666 it was just a Yeah. 505 00:47:17,667.4536667 --> 00:47:18,397.4536667 the board. 506 00:47:19,97.4536667 --> 00:47:22,517.4536667 And then I just started emailing them out to everybody. 507 00:47:23,47.4536667 --> 00:47:27,827.4526667 And you know, whenever I talk to anybody now, I just, you know, them one. 508 00:47:28,127.4536667 --> 00:47:29,357.4546667 It's just, I don't know. 509 00:47:29,357.4546667 --> 00:47:31,303.4546666 It's just, That's one of your trademarks now. 510 00:47:32,702.4546667 --> 00:47:34,582.4546667 Yeah, people just expect a signed Yeah. 511 00:47:34,681.4546667 --> 00:47:39,181.4556667 sardine hand That AGR Facebook group, people love posting their pictures. 512 00:47:39,281.4556667 --> 00:47:41,851.4556667 They're signed eight by 10 of certain hand. 513 00:47:41,851.4556667 --> 00:47:42,861.4556667 Like I got one. 514 00:47:44,130.4556667 --> 00:47:46,460.4556667 yep, yeah, it's, it's just a thing now. 515 00:47:46,961.4556667 --> 00:47:47,601.4556667 that's awesome. 516 00:47:47,760.4556667 --> 00:47:51,210.4546667 I get a new, whenever I get a new picture, I have to get them all sent out. 517 00:47:51,296.4556667 --> 00:47:51,736.4556667 Yeah. 518 00:47:52,676.4556667 --> 00:47:52,996.4556667 All right. 519 00:47:52,996.4556667 --> 00:47:55,506.4556667 Well, we're running you know, running high on time. 520 00:47:55,506.4556667 --> 00:47:59,566.4556667 So let's I want to kind of to draw it back, you know, circle back from the beginning. 521 00:47:59,566.4556667 --> 00:48:03,986.4556667 We've had some fun stories, talked about some real issues, but I really want. 522 00:48:04,336.4556667 --> 00:48:07,916.4556667 to kind of wrap up and set the stage even for future episodes. 523 00:48:08,416.4556667 --> 00:48:18,776.4556667 And I want to circle back to toxic tribalism, you know, you know, you've, we've seen it in politics right now it's a hot button where, you know, this guy. 524 00:48:19,46.4556667 --> 00:48:25,186.4556667 Isn't as hardcore, this guy's service isn't legit, or this guy didn't, is more military than this other guy. 525 00:48:25,546.4556667 --> 00:48:30,426.4556667 And unfortunately, I think that, you know, that, that ties into a lot of the stuff we've talked about. 526 00:48:30,486.4556667 --> 00:48:52,811.4546667 Ties into mental health, ties into imposter syndrome, ties into elitism, you know, like, You know, where, you know, there's got to be a line between, you know, friendly trash talk, you know, our, you know, can't use the word hazy anymore, whatever, or, you know, our, our camaraderie, you know, where, where we're just poking fun at each other. 527 00:48:53,231.4556667 --> 00:49:03,731.4566667 To, you know, being detrimental to the veteran community, being detrimental to to mental health and, and contributing to a lot of the ills of society. 528 00:49:04,71.4566667 --> 00:49:08,611.4561667 And again, ultimately, that's what I hope we can kind of bring out with future episodes. 529 00:49:08,681.4561667 --> 00:49:15,951.4571667 And I'd love to have you on as a, as a co host on future episodes, if you, if you'd be interested to have the opportunity. 530 00:49:16,190.4571667 --> 00:49:16,310.4571667 absolutely. 531 00:49:17,531.4571667 --> 00:49:19,381.4571667 But let me, I want to throw that to you. 532 00:49:19,381.4571667 --> 00:49:46,471.4571667 You know, what is, you know, what's your take on, on toxic tribalism? You know, what have you seen and kind of what are your thoughts based on your experiences, what you've dealt with where is that line and what can we do as, as service members and veterans in this community to, to combat this? So my experience now is now, I told you, I dealt with a lot early in my career. 533 00:49:48,726.4571667 --> 00:50:20,366.4566667 Now, after 20 years of therapy and know, having that better educated perspective on it I can say that and be comfortable when people try to have that toxic perspective that you're calling her toxic tribalism, never directed at me, even if they're trying to force on me. 534 00:50:20,366.4566667 --> 00:50:20,906.4571667 It's always. 535 00:50:21,726.4571667 --> 00:50:23,726.4571667 Something directed inward on them. 536 00:50:24,326.4571667 --> 00:50:31,96.4571667 It's not, it's never something that I think that they're trying to, it's not my problem. 537 00:50:32,336.4576667 --> 00:50:35,646.4571667 Something that they have something internal to them that they're trying to deal with. 538 00:50:36,366.4581667 --> 00:50:45,336.4581667 That they can't understand that some type of self loathing, some type of thing that they're trying to deal with. 539 00:50:45,656.4581667 --> 00:50:54,306.4591667 When you talk about the politics stuff, I mean, that's, you know, that's, that's sensationalism, that's people trying to a story. 540 00:50:54,696.4581667 --> 00:50:56,581.3591667 But when we talk about it, when we're at. 541 00:50:57,51.4591667 --> 00:51:04,401.4591667 Work or when we're at, the VFW or the bars of like that, you know, I've seen it all. 542 00:51:06,201.4581667 --> 00:51:13,201.4591667 and I used to really let it bother me and it really did bother me. 543 00:51:14,581.4591667 --> 00:51:14,801.4601667 I don't. 544 00:51:15,801.4601667 --> 00:51:18,71.4601667 Within a number of different ways that weren't healthy. 545 00:51:18,661.4601667 --> 00:51:21,71.4601667 Now I can look at that. 546 00:51:21,71.4601667 --> 00:51:25,621.4601667 It's not directed at me when people deal with that stuff. 547 00:51:26,11.4591667 --> 00:51:43,401.4591667 They're trying to make themselves bigger than they were or justify what they did to themselves or You know, give themselves some type of delusion of grandeur or something. 548 00:51:43,971.4591667 --> 00:51:46,241.4591667 It's, it's never has anything to do with me. 549 00:51:46,711.4591667 --> 00:52:15,961.4591667 What advice always like can you give to folks that might be, you know, struggling with experiencing can I give them? Yeah, what advice can you give people that that might be, you know, having trouble dealing with this toxic tribalism, whether being attacked or just hearing it, you know, the chatter online or having your service degraded with just these, these, you know, really terrible we're running down veterans attacking veterans civilians attacking veterans. 550 00:52:16,21.4591667 --> 00:52:19,631.4591667 How can you base how, you know, you've, you've had a lot of healing. 551 00:52:19,631.4591667 --> 00:52:20,841.4591667 You've had a lot of experience. 552 00:52:21,251.4591667 --> 00:52:30,896.4591667 What advice can you give to people that are, might be having some mental health issues and dealing with that? Toxic tribalism in our current hyper politicized environment. 553 00:52:33,815.4591667 --> 00:52:38,285.4591667 It's easy for me to say just to remove yourself from the situation, right? That's, that's the easiest thing to do. 554 00:52:38,685.4591667 --> 00:52:39,805.4591667 But you can't always do that. 555 00:52:41,625.4591667 --> 00:52:47,405.4571667 the best thing to do is try to get yourself into some type of counseling or therapy. 556 00:52:47,805.4581667 --> 00:52:49,975.4581667 You know, Vet Center was the best place for me. 557 00:52:51,105.4591667 --> 00:52:51,935.4591667 if you're a vet. 558 00:52:52,120.4591667 --> 00:52:56,580.4591667 That has been to like Iraq or Afghanistan, the vet center is going to take you in a second. 559 00:52:57,590.4591667 --> 00:53:02,430.4591667 but counseling is, I don't know, it helped me out a lot. 560 00:53:03,60.4591667 --> 00:53:11,770.4601667 You know, it's just, just trying to understand once you understand yourself your own self worth, that's, that's the number one thing. 561 00:53:11,830.4591667 --> 00:53:15,670.4591667 Once you understand your own self worth, no one else can touch it. 562 00:53:16,216.4591667 --> 00:53:16,696.4591667 Absolutely. 563 00:53:17,60.4591667 --> 00:53:18,230.4591667 that's the hardest thing. 564 00:53:19,106.4591667 --> 00:53:22,640.4591667 What do you think we can, you could do that, what do you think? only way I could do that was to. 565 00:53:22,756.4591667 --> 00:53:23,336.4591667 Sorry, go ahead. 566 00:53:24,935.4591667 --> 00:53:28,295.4591667 The only way I could really get to that stage was through therapy. 567 00:53:29,36.4591667 --> 00:53:56,151.4591667 What do you think we can do as a military and veteran community? You know, obviously the answer isn't just to, to argue on the internet, but what can we do to try to combat and minimize this, this idea of toxic tribalism, you know, and the, this elite, you know, dangerous elitism, you know, what as a community, how can we come together? to say, no, this is not acceptable and not get sucked into that that vortex. 568 00:53:56,675.4591667 --> 00:53:59,965.4591667 Yeah, unfortunately, I think we're doing everything we can to say it's not acceptable. 569 00:53:59,965.4591667 --> 00:54:01,635.4591667 I think we know that it's not acceptable. 570 00:54:02,55.4591667 --> 00:54:16,335.4581667 Unfortunately, we're at a very volatile stage in history people like they have to be angry about something for whatever reason. 571 00:54:16,375.4591667 --> 00:54:18,595.4591667 And we could talk about whatever reason all day long. 572 00:54:18,615.4591667 --> 00:54:21,391.4591667 This is, I don't think the venue for Yeah. 573 00:54:21,755.4591667 --> 00:54:24,555.4581667 But you know, people feel like they have to be angry right now. 574 00:54:26,255.4581667 --> 00:54:29,385.4581667 And they're going to find to be angry. 575 00:54:29,411.4581667 --> 00:54:29,801.4581667 Yeah. 576 00:54:29,965.4581667 --> 00:54:46,115.4581667 You know, a And I think of times you find yourself being that you know, I've heard it said, I said, you know, someone is looking for a villain. 577 00:54:46,975.4581667 --> 00:54:49,305.4581667 And sometimes you will be that villain. 578 00:54:50,645.4581667 --> 00:54:58,645.4581667 Know, if you're someone's villain for no reason that you can figure out, to remove yourself from this situation. 579 00:54:58,665.4581667 --> 00:55:00,775.4571667 Then don't try to understand it. 580 00:55:00,785.4581667 --> 00:55:01,915.4581667 Just get out of there. 581 00:55:02,555.4581667 --> 00:55:10,795.4581667 If you can't justify your own self worth, then you need to out a way to do that. 582 00:55:11,51.4581667 --> 00:55:11,841.4581667 absolutely. 583 00:55:11,995.4581667 --> 00:55:12,615.4581667 It's hard. 584 00:55:12,731.4581667 --> 00:55:12,991.4581667 Yeah. 585 00:55:13,51.4571667 --> 00:55:22,941.4581667 And I think you know, one recommendation that I would give and hopefully a theme we can keep bringing up is hopefully the value of the veteran tribe and the service member tribe. 586 00:55:23,361.4581667 --> 00:55:46,561.4581667 I would hope that that can outweigh some of the other tribalisms that are out there, whether it be political or social, you know, you know, hopefully that the commonality that we all have as veterans can, can overcome and supersede some of the other, you know, petty tribalistic stuff that causes us to fight against each other. 587 00:55:46,881.4581667 --> 00:55:50,621.4581667 You know, cause I mean, regardless of, you know, when we're serving together. 588 00:55:50,956.4581667 --> 00:56:03,126.4571667 It doesn't matter where you come from, what your social background is, you know, what your religious background is, what your political background is, you know, we're all working arm and arm side by side to make the mission happen. 589 00:56:03,476.4571667 --> 00:56:26,506.4581667 And I'm not sure if people just, if we lose that, you know, or if, you know, that's that feeling kind of fades, but I think the more we can kind of draw upon that level of, of camaraderie and support that, Hey, we all served, we all served in different ways, whether it's guard, reserve, active combat, non combat, you know, in the end, we all raised our right hand. 590 00:56:26,801.4581667 --> 00:56:30,221.4581667 You know, to, to serve a bigger purpose together. 591 00:56:30,601.4581667 --> 00:56:33,911.4581667 And hopefully that can be an overriding. 592 00:56:34,251.4581667 --> 00:56:39,525.4581667 Commonality that, Yeah, I mean, you know, it's, But I want to open it up. 593 00:56:39,545.4581667 --> 00:56:43,185.4581667 Any final thoughts, final comments you know, I'm grateful to have you on. 594 00:56:43,185.4581667 --> 00:56:54,415.4581667 I am appreciative that you shared some stories, shared some laughs and you know, kind of opened up this conversation, which I hope will be, you know, a long running show with this opposite of infantry concept. 595 00:56:54,775.4581667 --> 00:56:56,295.4581667 But I want to open it up to you. 596 00:56:56,555.4581667 --> 00:57:08,729.4581667 If you want to plug your social medias where people can find you and again, any closing thoughts on our conversation today? yeah, no, I think this is a great topic. 597 00:57:08,749.4581667 --> 00:57:17,609.4581667 I think it's important to remember that it is, you know, everybody is in a of the military, we, we need it at all. 598 00:57:17,889.4581667 --> 00:57:26,559.2581667 You know, to, Got questions for me, you can look me up on all of the social medias at the at the. 599 00:57:27,619.3581667 --> 00:57:27,989.3581667 j. 600 00:57:28,289.3581667 --> 00:57:35,139.3571667 hand pretty much everything YouTube, Instagram Facebook at the. 601 00:57:35,359.3571667 --> 00:57:35,589.3571667 j. 602 00:57:35,779.3571667 --> 00:57:36,159.3571667 hand. 603 00:57:36,549.3571667 --> 00:57:49,319.3581667 So, but yeah, you know, it's, if anyone's ever to bash your career or your importance in this whole military thing experience. 604 00:57:50,219.3581667 --> 00:57:51,249.3581667 It ain't you, man. 605 00:57:53,129.3581667 --> 00:57:53,849.3581667 It's them. 606 00:57:54,765.3581667 --> 00:57:55,145.3581667 Absolutely. 607 00:57:55,145.3581667 --> 00:57:56,975.3581667 Well, thank you so much, John. 608 00:57:56,985.3581667 --> 00:58:08,115.3581667 You know, I, I really enjoyed chopping it up with you and really setting a great foundation for for the future of this I'm sure you'll be back look forward to, to having you on again with some other guests. 609 00:58:08,725.3581667 --> 00:58:10,895.3581667 Again, this is the opposite of infantry. 610 00:58:11,80.3581667 --> 00:58:14,980.3581667 At opposite of infantry, we're a LinkedIn, Instagram opposite of infantry. 611 00:58:15,270.3581667 --> 00:58:21,100.3581667 com and we're going to be distributed on YouTube and anywhere you find your podcasts. 612 00:58:21,600.3581667 --> 00:58:24,720.3571667 Thank you very much and we'll see you next episode.