Episode 5: Understanding Power Dynamics with Mischa Byruck: Accountability and Transformation

Understanding Power Dynamics with Mischa Byruck: Accountability and Transformation

 

In this episode of the Power Dynamic Podcast, Dr. Amanda Aguilera, executive director with the Right Use of Power Institute, converses with Mischa Byruck, a men's integrity coach. They explore the nuanced realms of power dynamics, accountability, and the role of power in personal and social contexts. Mischa shares insights from their professional experience in transforming power misuse into opportunities for growth and reflects on the intersectionality of power, sex, and harm. Tune in to understand how intentionality and awareness in power dynamics can reshape our relationships and societal structures.

 

 Nora Samoran: https://www.instagram.com/norasamaran/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet 

 Amiya Srinivasan: https://users.ox.ac.uk/~corp1468/Welcome.html

Evolve Men Website: https://www.evolve.men/

Mischa’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mischabyruck?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw== 

Episode Transcript

(00:05):
Hello, and welcome to the power dynamic podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Amanda Aguilera.
I'm executive director with the right use of power Institute. 5 00:00:15,779.999 --> 00:00:19,970 And I do research writing and facilitating in social power dynamics.
In this podcast, we bring to light what often gets left in the shadows, personal, social, and systemic power dynamics.

(00:28):
.999Before we get started, please be sure to hit the like and subscribe button.
So you won't miss any of our future episodes.
A way for you to show support for us is to leave a review wherever you're listening to this podcast.
We value your feedback.
.999So let's dive in and learn how we can transform our relationships to power and each other.

(00:54):
So hello and welcome again to the power dynamic podcast.
I'm Dr.
Amanda Aguilera, and I'm joined today by Misha Byrick, who's a men's integrity coach.
I'm very excited for this conversation.
.999We always have a lot of fun talking about power and I'd love for you to introduce yourself, Misha.

(01:16):
Sure.
.87755102Thanks so much for having me, Amanda. 19 00:01:19,290.87755102 --> 00:01:22,871.491 I was such a big fan of the right use of power Institute and of your work. 20 00:01:22,971.491 --> 00:01:39,241.49 I'm a men's integrity coach and where I focus is on men's sexual integrity and accountability, which means basically what I do professionally is I help men turn greatest mistakes often around the intersection of sex, harm, and power. 21 00:01:39,696.491 --> 00:01:42,226.491 Into their greatest opportunities for transformation. 22 00:01:42,236.491 --> 00:01:48,46.49 So I've worked with called out and cancelled celebrities, musicians in CEOs. 23 00:01:48,96.491 --> 00:01:55,186.491 I've worked proactively with who have just risen to positions of power and want to make sure that they're acting in integrity. 24 00:01:55,626.491 --> 00:02:03,370.36855102 I work with people who are confronting reality that we're often bad with power. 25 00:02:04,250.36855102 --> 00:02:06,425.3115 And especially around sex. 26 00:02:06,855.3115 --> 00:02:09,884.24524036 And yeah, I've been doing that full time for seven years. 27 00:02:10,634.24524036 --> 00:02:12,824.60855102 My business has really blossomed. 28 00:02:14,314.60855102 --> 00:02:18,44.60855102 It's definitely my calling and it's definitely the thing that I'm here to do. 29 00:02:18,44.60855102 --> 00:02:20,384.60855102 So it feels to share this. 30 00:02:20,784.60855102 --> 00:02:21,724.60855102 With you today. 31 00:02:22,329.60855102 --> 00:02:24,279.60855102 And it's definitely a need in the world. 32 00:02:24,289.60855102 --> 00:02:26,309.60855102 So thank you for filling that need. 33 00:02:26,855.57870165 --> 00:02:29,95.57920165 So I usually like to ask. 34 00:02:29,441.54935228 --> 00:02:30,862.24586832 Guests that come on the show. 35 00:02:30,862.24586832 --> 00:02:51,706.50786832 What's on your mind about power right now? Ah, what's on my mind? One of the things that's on my mind is we are getting a a masterclass right now in American politics in, misuse of power and abuse of power in a variety of ways. 36 00:02:51,756.50786832 --> 00:03:15,751.04346582 We're looking at, for instance, What it looks like for the incoming Trump administration to be filling positions with people who are going to accentuate the existing power structure of of the hierarchical dynamic yes men, sycophants, people who are loyal above all else, right? So that's an interesting dynamic where we're seeing this is what it looks like to force to reinforce hierarchy such that. 37 00:03:16,566.04346582 --> 00:03:19,556.04346582 I'm actually not looking for people to push back against me if I'm the leader. 38 00:03:19,556.04346582 --> 00:03:21,556.04346582 I'm not looking for independent thinkers. 39 00:03:21,606.04346582 --> 00:03:27,956.04146582 I'm looking for people who are going to absolutely simply follow orders no matter what, and all people are going to toe a party line. 40 00:03:27,956.04246582 --> 00:03:29,876.04246582 I don't think that's a particularly controversial take. 41 00:03:30,306.04146582 --> 00:03:45,179.27279916 Also I think being given, an interesting set of reflections on our own relationship to, power around, around the power of the narratives that we tell ourselves. 42 00:03:45,709.27379916 --> 00:04:10,28.95579916 An incredible Interesting, nuanced perspective on the power of I don't know exactly how I'm trying to say this something about how we are at least I find in my communities, we've been telling ourselves a story of transcendent, progressive, inevitability the unilateral oneness of the coalition of the marginalized. 43 00:04:10,748.95579916 --> 00:04:32,724.08079916 And I found that the power of that narrative was so much that I did not or that many people around me especially did not see that much more potent narrative of aggravation and grievance and resentment, but also of dignity was ascendant in this country. 44 00:04:33,704.08079916 --> 00:04:36,114.08079916 I'm not articulating it especially well right now. 45 00:04:36,114.08079916 --> 00:04:38,264.08079916 It's this is the first call of mine in the morning. 46 00:04:39,114.08079916 --> 00:05:06,648.21064853 I'm just conscious of the way that my clients and really the communities and organizations and companies that I work with might be permissioned by the rise of more authoritarian rule this country, but also in the world to ignore some of the more challenging parts of being in right relationship with power. 47 00:05:06,698.21064853 --> 00:05:19,673.20964853 And this is coming also in the context of, was just listening to a podcast just this morning where a couple of talking heads were bemoaning how DEI initiatives just made everybody feel worse. 48 00:05:21,658.20964853 --> 00:05:34,720.75946258 I've seen this actually also I have professionals who, or colleagues who do restorative justice in institutions like Title IX in universities and they're constantly talking about you know what? I think a lot of times our work makes everybody feel worse. 49 00:05:35,450.75946258 --> 00:05:36,499.19697506 I wrestle with this. 50 00:05:36,909.19697506 --> 00:05:37,179.19697506 Yeah. 51 00:05:37,344.19697506 --> 00:05:37,974.19697506 All the time. 52 00:05:38,349.19697506 --> 00:05:38,679.19697506 Yeah. 53 00:05:39,239.19697506 --> 00:05:41,489.19697506 I don't make people always feel better. 54 00:05:41,989.19697506 --> 00:05:43,289.19697506 I don't know if that's the point. 55 00:05:44,669.19697506 --> 00:05:53,49.19597506 but there is this nuance thing of, yeah, talking about power makes people uncomfortable and would rather not do it. 56 00:05:53,599.19597506 --> 00:05:55,789.19497506 And it also not just makes people uncomfortable. 57 00:05:55,839.19597506 --> 00:06:00,859.19597506 I think we have to be honest with ourselves talking about power often makes people less happy in the short term. 58 00:06:01,64.19597506 --> 00:06:03,14.19497506 Gives us less of a sense of togetherness. 59 00:06:03,449.19597506 --> 00:06:26,159.19397506 Talking about power dynamics runs the risk of accentuating our frail human sense of belonging and togetherness, and I know a lot of anti racist instructors who say the same thing in the short term, and if you're not careful forever, you do anti racist work with white people, they'll just walk away feeling oh god, I can't say anything, like I'm so in my own guilt, shame like I'm tense. 60 00:06:27,149.19497506 --> 00:06:40,869.19397506 anybody who's not like a white person who with cisgender like I'm so like in my identitarian orientation that I can't actually just relax and be with and that actually creates both more tension and more distance and often more harm, ironically. 61 00:06:41,490.19497506 --> 00:06:41,491.19497506 Yes. 62 00:06:41,639.19597506 --> 00:06:53,769.19497506 So I'm thinking about the ways that talking about power inexpertly and Without grace and joy can actually us backward. 63 00:06:55,884.19497506 --> 00:06:56,174.19497506 Yeah. 64 00:06:56,229.19497506 --> 00:06:56,799.19497506 was long winded. 65 00:06:56,799.19497506 --> 00:07:31,2.66497506 That, there's so much in what you said from like the classic power over habit in our country getting stronger and the lost art of accountability, it's like the fragile, the up power of fragility that's present is so much more present than accountability or being able to see we show up in relationship impacts systems impacts. 66 00:07:31,562.66497506 --> 00:07:44,332.66497506 How we understand ourselves impacts the narratives, as you mentioned, that we tell ourselves about who we are as human beings and what we're here to do. 67 00:07:46,92.66497506 --> 00:07:46,582.66497506 Yeah. 68 00:07:47,847.66497506 --> 00:08:03,712.66497506 There's also to go back to this national framework and I don't often like to take too many of my examples from like the large internet, like national scope, first of all, it creates, it dates, it Totally. 69 00:08:04,47.66597506 --> 00:08:06,77.66597506 dates my, my examples. 70 00:08:06,227.66597506 --> 00:08:08,447.66597506 But it also ironically can give us. 71 00:08:08,862.66597506 --> 00:08:19,932.66597506 An excuse to keep thinking about power as only belonging to those giant heads of governments or organizations in Washington rather than thinking about the power that we each have in our own lives. 72 00:08:20,152.66597506 --> 00:08:20,462.66597506 Yes. 73 00:08:20,992.66497506 --> 00:09:00,472.76497506 And that said I think I'm thinking right now about Joe Biden pardoning his son this dynamic in which, Of course, there's lots of takes on this and I'm going to give one brief one, but the way that being faced with an abuse of power, right? Let's just say charitably that the reason that Joe Biden pardons his son was because he knew that or he's, he had a reason to believe that his son was going to be victim of corrupt political targeting under a Trump administration that the suspicion or expectation of the abuse of power leads us to abuse power, Yeah. 74 00:09:01,262.76597506 --> 00:09:04,722.76597506 right? It justifies it, as you said, permissioned. 75 00:09:05,282.76597506 --> 00:09:49,907.76747506 yes, permission, rationalize, justified, there are, want to take this back to home, right? That when we see people for instance, when my roommate her pelvis two weeks ago, I live in a communal house with five other people as the last two weeks, like directly related to when the pelvis fracture happened, the kitchen has been messier And what I've, and this is so inevitable, right? We, what we notice is within the context of one person, maybe not able to like take care of herself and all of us wanting to be supportive. 76 00:09:49,977.76747506 --> 00:09:53,517.76747506 And yet there's still a little bit more mess. 77 00:09:54,67.76747506 --> 00:10:05,257.76647506 And that mess, when we see one dish left out, we tend to give ourselves a little bit more permission to leave our own dishes out. 78 00:10:05,642.76747506 --> 00:10:09,222.76747506 It's not just if they're doing it, I guess it's okay for me to do it. 79 00:10:09,472.76747506 --> 00:10:12,232.76747506 There's resentment dynamics in there. 80 00:10:12,462.76747506 --> 00:10:18,902.76747506 And there's also the kind of saying of that person leaving the dish in some way is exercising power over me. 81 00:10:19,462.76747506 --> 00:10:28,336.62235034 Their time is more important in a very subtle way than mine, this is subconscious, of course, but this, I want to make this stuff accessible to humans. 82 00:10:28,836.62135034 --> 00:10:32,826.62235034 I need to leave a dish out as a way of reasserting my power. 83 00:10:33,181.62235034 --> 00:10:38,644.48171701 I see this also with pickup artists call the game or what people when human beings are single and flirting with each other, you can't give up too much of your power. 84 00:10:38,644.48171701 --> 00:10:41,963.62226701 I see this also with what pickup artists call the game or what people when human beings are single and flirting with each other, you can't give up too much of your power. 85 00:10:42,513.72226701 --> 00:10:50,217.47100034 In a new relationship where you're still dancing I want to be vulnerable enough to keep you interested, but not so vulnerable that you think I'm desperate. 86 00:10:51,817.47100034 --> 00:11:04,587.46950034 I want uh, share my truth with you or share my feelings with you, but not so much that all of a sudden, everything about me and I know nothing about you, which has given you too much power and that actually might destroy the polarity in our dynamic. 87 00:11:07,262.47050034 --> 00:11:19,412.47050034 I often think in intimate relationships, I often share this with my clients that if you're looking for where power lies, tends to lie with the person who needs the relationship the least. 88 00:11:21,127.47050034 --> 00:11:21,757.47050034 yikes. 89 00:11:22,262.46950034 --> 00:11:22,802.46950034 Yikes. 90 00:11:22,802.46950034 --> 00:11:23,382.46950034 Indeed. 91 00:11:23,382.56950034 --> 00:11:39,422.47050034 In this kind of feeling about power that's like something you have to keep close instead of it being a dynamic you participate in is so interesting to me. 92 00:11:39,972.47050034 --> 00:11:42,732.47050034 I find that because I'm neurodivergent. 93 00:11:43,637.47050034 --> 00:11:51,977.47050034 I tend to be an open book and I tend to be a little bit more direct and honest and somewhat naive. 94 00:11:51,977.47050034 --> 00:12:02,237.47050034 I don't always pick up on social cues and people take that to mean that I'm less powerful somehow. 95 00:12:03,97.46950034 --> 00:12:05,717.46950034 They take it as a sign of weakness. 96 00:12:06,717.47050034 --> 00:12:08,977.47050034 Which is so fascinating to me. 97 00:12:09,507.47050034 --> 00:12:29,817.46950034 And then they start to change their behavior because of that assumption, what way? Yeah, they start to interact with me as if I'm a child or, like in, in a, Oh, she needs to be taken care of kind of way. 98 00:12:31,167.46950034 --> 00:12:42,647.46950034 It becomes a power over dynamic instead of a power with there's something that also happens where if someone is perceived as weak, we have to then take care of them or something. 99 00:12:42,757.46950034 --> 00:12:54,995.09850034 It's that same kind of, it's a similar kind of path that you were taking with how we interpret things and then choose to show up in our power. 100 00:12:55,95.09850034 --> 00:12:55,685.09850034 Yes. 101 00:12:55,715.09950034 --> 00:12:57,405.09850034 How we interpret things and then choose to show up. 102 00:12:57,445.09850034 --> 00:13:01,545.09950034 I'm interested in, so much to unpack in that example. 103 00:13:02,765.09950034 --> 00:13:06,975.09950034 For instance what you want your relationship to power to be. 104 00:13:08,15.09950034 --> 00:13:16,725.09950034 I've just started listening to Kasia Urbanek's Unbound which is, I had to listen to it because 15 different people started recommending it to me. 105 00:13:17,375.09950034 --> 00:13:28,920.09950034 I don't, I can't like speak to it directly, but, she's speaking to what, Some of my other mentors around power dynamics. 106 00:13:28,970.09950034 --> 00:13:32,560.09950034 I'm going to specifically cite the light dark Institute right now. 107 00:13:32,860.09950034 --> 00:13:40,560.10050034 About the, not just the inevitability of power dynamics that Ruby talks about, but the joy and pleasure in making power. 108 00:13:40,970.09950034 --> 00:13:50,880.09950034 Dynamics explicit and often how connective and pleasurable again, pleasurable being in a power dynamic be. 109 00:13:51,200.09950034 --> 00:14:03,300.09950034 The joy of dominance, the exquisite joy of submission of being held the affirmation of being the holder. 110 00:14:04,190.19950034 --> 00:14:07,670.09850034 and I'm not just talking about sex or kink practice or kink play. 111 00:14:07,720.09950034 --> 00:14:15,100.09950034 I'm talking about so many of our interactions are like, I'm planning a vacation with a good friend. 112 00:14:15,650.09950034 --> 00:14:16,220.09950034 And. 113 00:14:16,720.09950034 --> 00:14:21,800.09950034 He I researched a bunch of Airbnbs and sent them to him and he wasn't getting back to me. 114 00:14:21,800.09950034 --> 00:14:24,100.09950034 And I was like, Hey, man, we need choose where we're going to stay. 115 00:14:24,150.09950034 --> 00:14:24,900.09950034 A vacation spot. 116 00:14:24,900.09950034 --> 00:14:27,40.09850034 It's busy, and he didn't get back to me. 117 00:14:27,40.09950034 --> 00:14:29,210.10050034 And I felt Ooh, like I felt like not just. 118 00:14:29,760.10050034 --> 00:14:40,50.10050034 It wasn't exactly power dynamic, although I did feel like I had given up a little bit of my power by proactively taking the time research a bunch of Airbnbs, but then also giving it up to him to make decisions. 119 00:14:41,580.10050034 --> 00:14:46,250.19950034 I remember feeling like his silence was, a subtle kind of power that he was taking. 120 00:14:46,260.19950034 --> 00:14:47,100.19950034 It was like, Oh yes. 121 00:14:47,140.19950034 --> 00:14:52,130.19950034 Like in my silence, I'm reasserting that I am ultimately the decision maker here about where we stay. 122 00:14:52,830.19850034 --> 00:14:57,390.19950034 And in part, because he had these other connections to houses where he got back. 123 00:14:58,320.19950034 --> 00:15:00,170.19950034 It was like, Oh my, we can stay with my friends. 124 00:15:00,200.19950034 --> 00:15:06,174.1022271 And I was like, Oh, and is both a reassertion of your power, but also how lovely that you took care of that. 125 00:15:06,394.1022271 --> 00:15:12,665.8483246 And Yay, I now I feel held because you did it and like proactively found cool people to stay with. 126 00:15:13,545.8483246 --> 00:15:14,994.87277358 Rather than just some random Airbnb. 127 00:15:14,994.87277358 --> 00:15:16,114.87277358 And I felt held. 128 00:15:16,914.87227358 --> 00:15:19,94.87277358 friends and I like to call this being daddied. 129 00:15:19,599.87277358 --> 00:15:20,804.87277358 This isn't about the Yeah. 130 00:15:20,909.87227358 --> 00:15:22,914.87277358 side of like taking care of it. 131 00:15:23,744.87277358 --> 00:15:36,474.87177358 can I rely on you to take care of it Assertion of the right use of power and responsibility and I just I love it when I can rely on someone to take care of something when I lied something to take care of something for me. 132 00:15:36,819.87277358 --> 00:15:40,444.87277358 And as a straight white dude like that is so rare yeah. 133 00:15:40,689.87177358 --> 00:15:43,79.87077358 Oh, being able to relax into someone else's care. 134 00:15:43,579.87077358 --> 00:15:44,289.87077358 So great. 135 00:15:44,319.87077358 --> 00:15:56,29.87077358 I love how Kasha talks about being intentional with how we show up in a power over scenario. 136 00:15:56,389.87077358 --> 00:15:59,749.87077358 If we choose to dominate or choose to submit. 137 00:16:00,369.87077358 --> 00:16:07,69.87077358 There Mm People do it unconsciously or unintentionally when we can choose it. 138 00:16:07,989.87077358 --> 00:16:11,269.87077358 Yeah it's a different, Yes. 139 00:16:11,599.87077358 --> 00:16:13,369.87077358 it's a different scenario. 140 00:16:14,759.87077358 --> 00:16:19,39.87077358 This other quote just came up for me from Mia Schachter. 141 00:16:19,349.87077358 --> 00:16:23,949.87077358 They are a intimacy coordinator and consent educator in Los Angeles and a colleague. 142 00:16:24,924.87077358 --> 00:16:25,134.87077358 whatever. 143 00:16:25,164.87077358 --> 00:16:28,364.87077358 They're like in a loose community of practice that I'm in. 144 00:16:30,64.87077358 --> 00:16:32,344.87077358 and they have this great quote. 145 00:16:32,594.87077358 --> 00:16:41,44.8707736 They said, you are guaranteed to misuse or abuse the power that you refuse to acknowledge that you have. 146 00:16:42,99.8697736 --> 00:16:42,849.8697736 Absolutely. 147 00:16:43,424.8707736 --> 00:16:43,934.8707736 Boom. 148 00:16:44,374.8697736 --> 00:16:45,474.8697736 I loved that phrasing. 149 00:16:46,24.8697736 --> 00:16:56,834.8707736 Because it, it gets at what I think is such an important kind of overarching point about the study of power, which is that it's not just like an optional thing. 150 00:16:57,74.8707736 --> 00:16:59,234.4627736 Like you are much, much more likely to do harm. 151 00:16:59,784.4627736 --> 00:17:13,814.4627736 If you don't acknowledge this, so if you care about not doing harm, acknowledging where you hold power and not just where you hold power, but being able to navigate and notice and see power dynamics critical. 152 00:17:14,394.4627736 --> 00:17:28,241.5338618 And this is like a, I make this point a lot, but like this kind of overarching critique I have of the left and I'm a I've come up under liberal parents and I went to liberal institutions and I've been in a left wing kind of milieu of my entire life. 153 00:17:29,921.5338618 --> 00:17:35,151.5338618 Reticence to acknowledge power, this hesitancy around power, this fear of power. 154 00:17:35,651.5338618 --> 00:17:44,151.5328618 And I see this also like in the fear of money and the fear of like actually earning and the fear of taking up space is not just. 155 00:17:45,206.5338618 --> 00:17:46,226.5338618 Not noble. 156 00:17:46,456.5338618 --> 00:17:49,206.5338618 I actually don't think it's particularly noble or good. 157 00:17:50,56.5338618 --> 00:17:51,346.5338618 it's actively bad. 158 00:17:51,406.5338618 --> 00:17:52,766.5338618 I think it's actively dangerous. 159 00:17:52,766.5338618 --> 00:17:59,436.5328618 I think it's not just, oh, know, you poor things, like we're doing ourselves a disservice and gosh wouldn't empowerment be nice? No, I think we're actually doing more harm. 160 00:18:00,616.5338618 --> 00:18:02,96.5338618 All of my clients. 161 00:18:02,931.5338618 --> 00:18:03,701.5338618 liberal men. 162 00:18:03,731.5338618 --> 00:18:06,751.5338618 All of my clients would consider themselves feminist. 163 00:18:07,371.5338618 --> 00:18:11,11.5338618 All of my clients are bad at noticing their own power Yes. 164 00:18:11,31.5338618 --> 00:18:20,381.5328618 acting in right relationship with it because all of my clients have received and or absorbed and or believe in a narrative in which they are bad if they hold power. 165 00:18:20,381.5338618 --> 00:18:23,841.5328618 And so their reaction has been to ignore it and deny it. 166 00:18:24,201.5328618 --> 00:18:26,441.5328618 And that has led them to harm others. 167 00:18:26,801.5328618 --> 00:18:32,246.4338618 And often as a result of the harm that they've done to others, be very harmed themselves, which is. 168 00:18:33,16.5338618 --> 00:18:36,686.5338618 The trauma of cancellation, ostracization, the loss of community et cetera. 169 00:18:37,451.5338618 --> 00:18:39,491.5338618 Yeah, it's like an epidemic. 170 00:18:40,6.5338618 --> 00:18:41,246.5338618 It sure is. 171 00:18:41,731.5338618 --> 00:18:52,921.5338618 It's there's the direct kind of, there's the nonchalant abusers of power that are, just self absorbed and want what they want. 172 00:18:53,1.5338618 --> 00:18:57,211.5338618 And then there's the people who don't want to be like that. 173 00:18:57,261.5338618 --> 00:19:00,881.5338618 And so they abandon all consciousness of power. 174 00:19:01,481.5338618 --> 00:19:01,631.5338618 Yeah. 175 00:19:01,691.5338618 --> 00:19:04,991.5333618 And it's the most banal cop out truly. 176 00:19:05,281.5333618 --> 00:19:05,761.5333618 Yeah. 177 00:19:06,361.5333618 --> 00:19:16,306.8643618 really, it's not just a banal cop out, but it's a I keep on coming back to this, like idea of the dangerous conceit, We need to and actually, I love the, I love that Rupee. 178 00:19:16,806.8643618 --> 00:19:23,106.8633618 If you're listening to this and haven't taken a course with Ruby, like this is my, like totally not sponsored plug to take a course with Ruby. 179 00:19:23,106.8633618 --> 00:19:25,796.8653618 I've just I learned so much from Ruby. 180 00:19:26,146.8653618 --> 00:19:27,496.8643618 I really think that you guys have. 181 00:19:27,836.8653618 --> 00:19:29,6.8653618 Flown open this world. 182 00:19:29,16.8653618 --> 00:19:32,666.8653618 And I bless up your work and the frameworks you've created. 183 00:19:33,126.8653618 --> 00:19:41,746.8643618 One of them is this kind of what I read, I, when I read it in your course was this bold assertion of humans want power. 184 00:19:43,456.8653618 --> 00:19:47,626.8643618 I thought that was, I was like, wow, that's so revolutionary to just say out loud. 185 00:19:48,566.8643618 --> 00:19:49,116.8643618 Yes. 186 00:19:49,616.8643618 --> 00:19:54,846.8643618 It's like almost it's taboo to say that I want power. 187 00:19:55,286.8643618 --> 00:19:55,766.8643618 Yeah. 188 00:19:56,436.8643618 --> 00:20:00,486.8643618 Why? Because it's just our ability to have an effect or influence. 189 00:20:00,486.8643618 --> 00:20:15,724.2275445 Like we all what are we doing as living beings? What are we doing with this one precious life that we've been given if we're not, engaging our power? Hey, Power Dynamic podcast listeners. 190 00:20:15,884.2275445 --> 00:20:25,334.2265445 Are you interested in joining us in one of our upcoming Right Use of Power trainings? We are so excited to introduce and walk you through our new course journey for 2025 and beyond. 191 00:20:26,14.2265445 --> 00:20:33,124.2275445 Here at the Right Use of Power Institute, our live courses are designed to support your journey toward greater power consciousness, one step at a time. 192 00:20:33,874.2265445 --> 00:20:39,934.2275445 Each course builds on the previous as you deepen your understanding of and participation in social power dynamics. 193 00:20:40,869.2275445 --> 00:20:44,539.2275445 The best way to start is with our basics training, which we offer every month. 194 00:20:45,109.2275445 --> 00:20:53,119.2275445 Use it as a Roopie starter kit that gives you the basic language and framework for the right use of power approach, with a focus on personal and role power. 195 00:20:53,774.2275445 --> 00:20:56,334.2275445 There are no prerequisites required for this training. 196 00:20:57,264.2275445 --> 00:21:00,404.2285445 Please contact us with any questions or help getting started. 197 00:21:01,254.2285445 --> 00:21:09,384.2285445 As a valued listener of our podcast, you can also receive 15 percent off any of our upcoming 2025 offerings using the code PODCAST. 198 00:21:09,854.2285445 --> 00:21:11,704.2285445 Explore our training calendar today. 199 00:21:12,334.2285445 --> 00:21:15,64.2285445 Thank you for being a valued part of our community. 200 00:21:15,324.2285445 --> 00:21:16,404.2285445 Now back to our show. 201 00:21:18,394.5618779 --> 00:21:19,554.5618779 Engaging our power. 202 00:21:19,714.5618779 --> 00:21:20,104.5618779 Yeah. 203 00:21:20,524.5618779 --> 00:21:35,634.5608779 And yeah, there's so many other points that you make in the course, but that's definitely a potent one of just what it like when you ask us and often throughout the course, there would be these moments where you'd ask us about our relationship with power. 204 00:21:35,634.5618779 --> 00:21:51,274.5618779 And I think this is a very profound moment of just challenging yourself to say, what do I, can I even accept the degrees to which I want power? Can I even accept the degrees to which I'm engaging in that for power, the acquisition of power. 205 00:21:51,704.5618779 --> 00:22:17,234.5628779 Consciously or unconsciously, um, I just gave a big speech about my conscious celibacy journey and a lot of the people who came up to me were men who thanked me for naming, what it's like to give up the power acquisition sex the kind of sexual acquisition that marks respect earning for men. 206 00:22:18,29.5628779 --> 00:22:34,699.5628779 But there was also a number of women and non binary people who thanked me for naming this dynamic because they themselves saw the ways that they sought status and validation through their sexualities, they were also seeking power Through their sexualities. 207 00:22:35,329.5618779 --> 00:22:38,279.5628779 So So many of us are seeking power through sex. 208 00:22:38,519.5628779 --> 00:22:38,819.5628779 Yeah. 209 00:22:38,819.5628779 --> 00:22:39,719.5628779 Which is curious. 210 00:22:39,729.5628779 --> 00:22:45,299.5618779 Why there? Because it's one of the most vulnerable things that we do. 211 00:22:45,309.5618779 --> 00:22:46,629.5118779 Yeah. 212 00:22:46,679.5118779 --> 00:22:58,314.5118779 What do you think? it goes back to what I was saying earlier about being perceived as like weak. 213 00:22:58,334.5118779 --> 00:23:03,64.5098779 There's something about that kind of invites in an opportunity. 214 00:23:04,184.6108779 --> 00:23:04,734.6108779 Yeah. 215 00:23:05,924.6108779 --> 00:23:06,194.6108779 Yeah. 216 00:23:06,294.6108779 --> 00:23:22,44.6118779 There's so much of like societally mandated status symbol around sexuality and there's the sexual acquisition, the demonstrating prowess and power through sex. 217 00:23:23,59.6118779 --> 00:23:53,259.6118779 Sex is also in so many ways the arena in which we're allowed to act out the power fantasies that exist in us throughout our lives both in the intensity at times the act itself and in the intensity with which we are able to access the vulnerability and the release of ego and the release of. 218 00:23:53,819.6118779 --> 00:24:08,39.6118779 Self referentiality in climax where we're actually no longer oriented towards status and how we look to others and what's like where I'm at in relation to others, but we're actually just truly in the moment. 219 00:24:08,589.6118779 --> 00:24:15,489.6118779 I'm grateful, immensely grateful to organizations like Rupee who have brought power awareness into the mainstream. 220 00:24:15,489.6128779 --> 00:24:23,779.6128779 And I'm also, like, it's been, like, the kink world has been an incredibly important part of my education about power. 221 00:24:24,29.6118779 --> 00:24:30,809.6128779 And one of my supervisors is the executive director of the Folsom Street Fair, which is one of the largest leather and kink events in the world. 222 00:24:31,479.6128779 --> 00:24:35,509.6128779 The world of kink is about power being explicit. 223 00:24:35,979.6128779 --> 00:24:36,589.6128779 It's Yes. 224 00:24:37,849.6128779 --> 00:24:47,359.6128779 let's be explicit, not just about where the power lies, but in how we actually all derive pleasure from power exchange Yes. 225 00:24:47,569.6128779 --> 00:24:53,529.6128779 up our power or taking power from another in sadism, in masochism, Yeah. 226 00:24:53,579.6128779 --> 00:25:00,69.6118779 the seeking out of experience proactively of being a being sensation or the seeking out of sensation or the ink. 227 00:25:00,434.6128779 --> 00:25:03,14.6128779 Or the inflicting or creating of sensation. 228 00:25:03,374.6128779 --> 00:25:05,753.6148779 And Yeah I also just named. 229 00:25:05,753.6148779 --> 00:25:16,483.6138779 So there's, those are the kind of, there's some of the reasons that, that, that sex and power is so deeply intertwined, but I also think that there's almost a more esoteric, hopefully even a spiritual reason. 230 00:25:17,413.6148779 --> 00:25:26,643.6148779 And I think sex is one of the most profound ways in which we connect with the divine, in which we are given a sense of power beyond us. 231 00:25:26,643.7148779 --> 00:25:30,653.6148779 And the sex reminds us of. 232 00:25:32,643.6148779 --> 00:25:39,183.6148779 yes, it reminds us that we're all animals, it also can help us access the transcendental. 233 00:25:39,553.6148779 --> 00:25:54,443.6153779 And yeah I liked, I like whenever talking about sex, I like to remind myself of the mystery of the mysteries and Within the sexual arena, how we can't really fully explain what just happened there. 234 00:25:54,493.6153779 --> 00:26:07,533.7153779 We can't really fully explain and don't have words and maybe we'll never and should never have words for the range of experience that we that we encounter the range of, Feelings, sensations, desires mysteries. 235 00:26:08,873.7153779 --> 00:26:09,883.7153779 I actually like that. 236 00:26:09,983.7153779 --> 00:26:15,213.7143779 I like that there's this element of our existence that's constantly reminding us of that there's something greater than you. 237 00:26:15,213.8143779 --> 00:26:20,23.6153779 Yes. 238 00:26:20,658.7778779 --> 00:26:34,988.7778779 along those lines, like what a way to have an effect or influence to help someone else reach orgasm like that, that is such an amazing talk about power, right? That's Yeah. 239 00:26:35,498.7778779 --> 00:26:42,178.7778779 It's like touching the something bigger bringing about the relationship with something bigger. 240 00:26:43,192.6781046 --> 00:26:43,312.6781046 Yeah. 241 00:26:43,372.6781046 --> 00:26:46,529.6553779 That's such a potent use of power. 242 00:26:47,64.7178779 --> 00:26:57,294.7178779 And, oh, there's so many things of allowing someone to experience your orgasm or allowing you know, it's such a, both a assertion of power and a relinquishing of power and a sharing of power. 243 00:26:57,394.7178779 --> 00:27:02,234.7178779 There's also, I want bring it back to like my particular area of power, sex, and harm. 244 00:27:02,504.7178779 --> 00:27:13,784.7178779 And, one of the things my supervisor pointed out when Me Too was first hitting was that there is a power. 245 00:27:13,834.7178779 --> 00:27:15,334.7178779 There's always been a power dynamic. 246 00:27:16,304.7178779 --> 00:27:19,214.7178779 When two people go to bed together, especially for the first time. 247 00:27:20,824.7178779 --> 00:27:35,284.9218779 And because of Me Too, because there's been a broader acceptance of pe of people and especially women, and especially I'm actually not gonna talk about gender as much as bottoms, tops and bottoms. 248 00:27:35,284.9218779 --> 00:27:36,389.9843778 Everybody right. 249 00:27:36,564.9218779 --> 00:27:36,834.9218779 to it. 250 00:27:37,39.9853778 --> 00:27:37,599.9833778 And switches. 251 00:27:38,199.9833778 --> 00:27:46,443.8609289 But there's a one way of understanding me too is that it allowed the bottoms to speak and be believed, to have a voice. 252 00:27:47,243.8609289 --> 00:28:05,313.7013778 Allow the bottoms to go into every interaction with a little bit more power, potentially a lot more power that the power happening in a one night stand between a top and a bottom, or in a hookup between the top and a bottom used to be that the top really had all the control and all the power, both in the interaction and beyond. 253 00:28:05,313.7013778 --> 00:28:07,703.7023778 It didn't matter how abusive. 254 00:28:08,188.7023778 --> 00:28:18,544.5468778 Unattuned, violent, harmful even manipulative or coercive the encounter was, the bottom had no recourse That's not true anymore. 255 00:28:18,789.6093778 --> 00:28:22,854.5458778 yeah, parties are taking risks in very different ways. 256 00:28:23,684.5458778 --> 00:28:30,884.4833778 Yeah, When a top and a bottom go to bed together, the bottom is taking various risks with their emotions and their body and their vulnerabilities. 257 00:28:31,264.4833778 --> 00:28:38,364.4833778 The top is taking risks with their name, their reputation, how they are able to move about in the world based on their actions. 258 00:28:39,4.5458778 --> 00:28:47,310.9858778 And not just and a lot of my clients and frankly a lot of the communities that I work with still expect that to be about did the top commit a crime or not? Yeah. 259 00:28:48,705.9233778 --> 00:28:50,400.9858778 But Crude lines. 260 00:28:50,855.9233778 --> 00:28:53,275.9233778 crude, not just crude lines, but the wrong lines. 261 00:28:53,360.9858778 --> 00:28:53,810.9858778 Yeah. 262 00:28:53,885.9233778 --> 00:29:02,645.9233778 us actually aren't oriented in the world and shouldn't be towards avoiding crimes committed by us or towards us. 263 00:29:02,675.9233778 --> 00:29:08,855.9233778 Most of us are oriented in the world as we very much should be towards preventing harm, towards not harming other people. 264 00:29:09,210.9858778 --> 00:29:09,550.9858778 Right. 265 00:29:09,860.9233778 --> 00:29:12,660.9233778 there are many ways to harm each other that are not illegal. 266 00:29:13,160.9233778 --> 00:29:19,830.9223778 So I'm not, I often don't deal with, sometimes I do with that might be considered harassment, assault, or rape. 267 00:29:20,280.9858778 --> 00:29:32,250.9858778 Most of the time what I'm dealing with is misuse of power, the lack of attunement, and the irresponsible use or the ignoring of power dynamics. 268 00:29:32,680.9858778 --> 00:29:46,366.0483778 Having the misuse of power be the ultimate reason for the harm rather than having that necessarily fit into, oh, this was a consent violation, which is, Right. 269 00:29:46,930.9858778 --> 00:30:01,660.8863778 And it's ironically, it's the putting of our experience into the language of criminality of somehow my consent must have been violated than what I think is a much more expansive and accurate Way of describing our experience was like, Oh, he didn't violate my consent. 270 00:30:01,660.8863778 --> 00:30:03,230.8863778 He just didn't respect his power. 271 00:30:03,260.8863778 --> 00:30:04,730.8863778 And I actually feel really harmed by that. 272 00:30:04,730.8863778 --> 00:30:07,0.8858778 But more importantly, like that's the place for him to grow. 273 00:30:07,0.8858778 --> 00:30:08,650.8863778 It's not consent education that he needs. 274 00:30:08,660.8853778 --> 00:30:10,710.8863778 It's power awareness education that he needs. 275 00:30:10,850.8853778 --> 00:30:11,260.8853778 Yeah. 276 00:30:11,260.9853778 --> 00:30:11,498.9451778 Yeah. 277 00:30:11,498.9451778 --> 00:30:11,736.9049778 Yeah. 278 00:30:11,886.9434778 --> 00:30:18,246.9429778 is the thing we encountered, especially this is coming from a very sex positive culture and community that I'm in, in San Francisco. 279 00:30:18,596.9429778 --> 00:30:20,436.9429778 I see this writ large. 280 00:30:20,716.9429778 --> 00:30:22,196.9429778 And I think Rupi does too. 281 00:30:22,246.9429778 --> 00:30:28,696.9054778 The many case studies and examples of Midwestern church pastors misusing their power to meet you. 282 00:30:28,896.9429778 --> 00:30:31,746.9429778 sex, right? Yeah, it doesn't have to be pink related at all. 283 00:30:31,906.8804779 --> 00:30:35,456.8804779 These truths apply to married couples cheating on each other. 284 00:30:35,556.8804779 --> 00:30:39,261.9804779 These or, or, hurting each other with their words. 285 00:30:39,577.0429778 --> 00:30:40,77.0429778 Yeah. 286 00:30:40,321.9804779 --> 00:30:40,812.0804779 Anyway, go on. 287 00:30:40,922.0804779 --> 00:30:42,122.0804779 the work you do. 288 00:30:42,152.0804779 --> 00:30:59,82.0804779 And I'm one of the things that I really appreciate when I've had conversations with you is your attention to the nuance and complexity in these kinds of cases and also your expertise around accountability. 289 00:30:59,917.0804779 --> 00:31:21,957.0824779 And I wonder if you would mind talking a little bit about accountability and what do you tell, especially kind of people who are socialized male or male bodied individuals who are concerned about cancel culture doing or saying the wrong thing and, their career being ruined. 290 00:31:22,7.0824779 --> 00:31:33,877.0824779 And so I think that the cancel culture that happens when people get violated is one of the only, as you're mentioning before, one of the only recourse that they have is that. 291 00:31:34,937.0834779 --> 00:31:43,927.0834779 To give feedback and cancel culture has so many problematic things about it, but it's like, what other recourse is there? And. 292 00:31:44,627.0834779 --> 00:31:45,467.0834779 W Yeah. 293 00:31:45,467.0834779 --> 00:31:59,172.0209779 How can people be responsible and accountable, which are two slightly different things, but how do you work with people in that mean, that so many places to start there. 294 00:31:59,172.0209779 --> 00:32:01,212.0204779 That's describe your entire practice. 295 00:32:01,842.0204779 --> 00:32:02,202.0204779 Let's see. 296 00:32:02,252.0194779 --> 00:32:02,882.0204779 Let's see how I do. 297 00:32:03,32.0194779 --> 00:32:09,412.0194779 A lot of it actually comes down to the right use of power and being in right relationship with power. 298 00:32:09,502.0194779 --> 00:32:12,742.0184779 If I've hurt you around sex, then. 299 00:32:13,192.0184779 --> 00:32:36,582.0194779 I write you the most profound apology in which I expressed so much remorse in which I convey to you the depth which I have self flagellated and which I commit and promise and never do it again, in which I tell you about all the bell hooks that I've been reading and which I tell you about how important it is to me to respect people's bodies and how I was just, I don't know what it was. 300 00:32:36,612.0194779 --> 00:32:37,201.9194779 I was just. 301 00:32:38,72.0194779 --> 00:32:41,322.0194779 Going into my own or I just, it was just a mistake. 302 00:32:41,332.0194779 --> 00:32:42,642.0194779 I'm so sorry. 303 00:32:43,732.0194779 --> 00:32:44,782.0194779 It's not really getting at it. 304 00:32:44,782.0194779 --> 00:32:52,682.0194779 Is it? It's not really capturing the essence of what one would want to see for repair. 305 00:32:53,312.0194779 --> 00:33:08,892.0194779 What would one would want to see from me for accountability? So accountability might look like me acknowledging some of the power dynamics that were at play, actually saying in that instance. 306 00:33:09,727.0194779 --> 00:33:12,207.0194779 I had the responsibility to slow down. 307 00:33:12,917.0194779 --> 00:33:15,517.0194779 had the responsibility to initiate the safe sex conversation. 308 00:33:15,547.0194779 --> 00:33:16,887.0194779 I was the penetrative partner. 309 00:33:16,917.0194779 --> 00:33:23,276.9569779 I was the one, right? 150% hundred fifty percent I More responsibility. 310 00:33:23,971.8934779 --> 00:33:36,851.8959779 yeah, you have more responsibility, the up power role has more responsibility, and I get huge amounts of resistance to this, especially from liberal communities, especially around gender I didn't have a healthy relationship with my power in that moment. 311 00:33:37,231.8959779 --> 00:33:39,121.8959779 I abused my power in that moment. 312 00:33:39,151.8959779 --> 00:33:40,881.8959779 I was irresponsible with it. 313 00:33:40,921.8959779 --> 00:33:43,71.8949779 It was on me to have done XYZ thing. 314 00:33:43,81.8959779 --> 00:33:44,531.8959779 It wasn't just a quote mistake. 315 00:33:44,671.8959779 --> 00:33:47,241.8959779 It was the irresponsible use of my power. 316 00:33:47,241.8959779 --> 00:33:50,281.8959779 And the truth is, oh, here's another layer. 317 00:33:51,71.8954779 --> 00:33:52,951.8959779 is often the place that I get to with my clients. 318 00:33:54,111.8959779 --> 00:33:59,451.8959779 I often, that I'm looking at it, I actually have a pattern of. 319 00:34:00,76.8959779 --> 00:34:04,826.8959779 Taking advantage in subtle and sometimes not subtle ways of coercing, manipulating, and pushing. 320 00:34:05,816.8959779 --> 00:34:15,816.8959779 Here's another layer, even deeper than that, that pattern isn't just incidental and a product of my patriarchal upbringing and something that I'm seeking to liberate myself from, but it's actually something I actually get off on. 321 00:34:16,341.9584779 --> 00:34:17,711.8574779 That's actually a turn on for me. 322 00:34:18,901.9574779 --> 00:34:33,141.9554779 Not just the assertion and dominance in a consensual, egalitarian cake dynamic in which we like sign contracts about how we're going to do power exchange, but in a manipulative way I actually like the taking of power in a way that's not completely consensual, that actually turns me on. 323 00:34:33,442.0189779 --> 00:34:34,342.0199779 I'm just speaking generally. 324 00:34:34,342.0199779 --> 00:34:41,11.6007952 This Me, but this is something, these are patterns that I see and that's the work I'm doing because. 325 00:34:41,561.6007952 --> 00:35:00,801.6007952 Real accountability looks like me demonstrating that I've understood all those different layers and now talking about what are the ways in which I am either prepared to do or like already actively shifting my relationship to that, for that thing in which I take non consensually. 326 00:35:00,801.7007952 --> 00:35:00,816.5007952 Okay. 327 00:35:01,576.6007952 --> 00:35:47,11.6007952 Is it actually important to me work with a kink professional or a coach or a therapist to get into a closer relationship between my other values and my desire for like subversive taking in sex? Is that actually important to me? Because that's often the work that's there for people to do under cisheteropatriarchal capitalism, whatever, like under our rubric, especially for men, like what the work that's there for a lot of us to do is to get into better relationship between our values, like our actual, like how we want to be in the world, generous, compassionate, kind, loving, caring, sweet, gentle, having everybody who interacts with us not regret it, and our much more subversive shadow desires. 328 00:35:47,381.6007952 --> 00:35:50,951.6007952 of taking, acquiring, dominating. 329 00:35:51,931.6007952 --> 00:35:53,851.6007952 We have to find balance for those. 330 00:35:53,871.6007952 --> 00:35:58,381.5997952 We have to be in that complexity, in that dance, in a healthy way. 331 00:35:58,601.6632952 --> 00:35:59,51.6632952 Yeah. 332 00:35:59,511.5997952 --> 00:35:59,751.5997952 Yeah. 333 00:35:59,751.5997952 --> 00:36:00,261.5997952 Totally. 334 00:36:00,261.5997952 --> 00:36:04,521.5997952 And I think that's where like the kink communities and also polyamorous. 335 00:36:05,71.5997952 --> 00:36:14,811.5992952 Relationships, I feel like we have a lot to learn from those communities because there is a practice of intentionality. 336 00:36:14,811.5992952 --> 00:36:18,336.5372952 Of course, anywhere you are, people are misusing their power and not doing Sure, Sure. 337 00:36:18,336.5372952 --> 00:36:18,656.5372952 Well. 338 00:36:18,721.4747953 --> 00:36:25,171.4747953 Yeah, that's gone I've gone, I passed through the Rubicon on that one, and I see all the shadow side, but yes, in totally. 339 00:36:25,266.4127953 --> 00:36:44,181.4747953 think that that's absolutely one of the huge gifts that the kink community and the polyamorous community have to offer to the broader world is intentionality and a willingness to bravely acknowledge the underlying power dynamics beneath our interactions but you asked about accountability and I want to get back to that because Please. 340 00:36:44,226.4132953 --> 00:36:46,136.4132953 like I've fully uncovered this thing. 341 00:36:47,226.4142953 --> 00:36:56,806.4142953 I think a lot of ways that people can demonstrate, especially tops or people who are like, walk through the world with a lot more power can demonstrate. 342 00:36:58,216.4142953 --> 00:37:02,921.4767953 isn't actually just it fucking up and then apologizing really well, Yeah. 343 00:37:03,26.4142953 --> 00:37:11,236.4142953 It's being proactive in the seeking out of, hey, it looked like I might have impacted you. 344 00:37:11,336.4142953 --> 00:37:17,906.3142953 What was that experience for you? So not relying on other people to be your guardrails. 345 00:37:18,406.3142953 --> 00:37:31,736.3142953 If you picture a bowling alley, a lot of people like go through their life, like a giant bowling ball, just like bouncing off against those like little, inflatable boundary things they put on for kids, just relying on other people in the world around us to be our guardrails. 346 00:37:33,96.3142953 --> 00:37:37,106.3142953 I'm just going to be a bull in a china shop and, but I don't want to do harm. 347 00:37:37,106.3142953 --> 00:37:39,671.3767953 So have you ever met someone like that who like walks Yeah. 348 00:37:39,776.3142953 --> 00:37:42,736.3137953 Hey, I'm really loud and annoying, but just let me know if it's too much. 349 00:37:42,786.3137953 --> 00:37:43,6.3137953 Yeah. 350 00:37:43,211.2512953 --> 00:37:45,351.3147953 That's that essence of, Totally. 351 00:37:45,571.2522953 --> 00:37:46,541.3147953 it was too much no. 352 00:37:47,191.3147953 --> 00:37:47,971.3147953 It's that's so good. 353 00:37:48,361.3147953 --> 00:37:52,11.2147953 Yeah, you just did it. 354 00:37:52,281.2522953 --> 00:37:53,783.1342953 what that is an abdication of power. 355 00:37:54,743.1967953 --> 00:37:55,3.1967953 Yeah. 356 00:37:55,303.1342953 --> 00:37:59,173.1342953 It's what that is, is saying, I don't take responsibility for myself. 357 00:37:59,953.1342953 --> 00:38:03,983.1342953 I don't attune and I'm not willing to get better at attunement. 358 00:38:04,533.1342953 --> 00:38:10,933.1342953 I am off loading, outsourcing all the responsibility my impact onto you. 359 00:38:11,923.1967953 --> 00:38:12,603.1967953 It's passive. 360 00:38:12,603.1967953 --> 00:38:14,193.1967953 It's passive. 361 00:38:14,753.1957953 --> 00:38:15,653.1957953 Responsibility. 362 00:38:16,53.1967953 --> 00:38:17,563.1957953 Versus active responsibility. 363 00:38:18,803.1332953 --> 00:38:19,233.1342953 I guess. 364 00:38:19,263.1332953 --> 00:38:19,533.1332953 Okay. 365 00:38:19,533.1332953 --> 00:38:20,633.1342953 Yeah, that's more charitable. 366 00:38:21,23.1342953 --> 00:38:22,313.1342953 I was being a little bit more harsh. 367 00:38:22,363.1342953 --> 00:38:22,763.1342953 Sure. 368 00:38:23,23.1332953 --> 00:39:05,928.2567953 So I guess, like the at least there's an openness and invitation to feedback, which is at least Sure, that's better than nothing, but I do see that as, yes, like an abdication of the responsibility, like I I see that as someone basically saying, I don't change myself, I don't hold myself to a code, I am not, when I look at, when I, what I look for, when I want to see humans, when I like, judge humans, people going through life, With a responsibility to their own code of conduct, to their own code of behavior, that They've reconciled with their own standards of being, that they work in the world, in every interaction, in every facet of their life, integrity. 369 00:39:06,228.3202952 --> 00:39:15,568.3202952 What I often see is people who are saying, so long as I'm not breaking the law, and so long as people aren't coming to me and saying there's a problem with you, assuming that I'm all good. 370 00:39:16,418.3202952 --> 00:39:20,968.3827952 I'm assuming that so long as I'm not getting active negative feedback Yeah. 371 00:39:21,538.3202952 --> 00:39:35,388.3202952 that I'm fine and what I often see is people not having any kind of standard of integrity not actually having done the work of thinking about, like, how do I want to be in the world? Um, And I don't view that as accountable. 372 00:39:36,648.3827952 --> 00:39:36,988.3827952 Yeah. 373 00:39:37,408.3202952 --> 00:39:45,948.3202952 I, and it's hard for me to trust an apology from someone who I don't think of as owning their own. 374 00:39:46,813.3202952 --> 00:39:48,13.3202952 Way of being in the world. 375 00:39:48,173.3202952 --> 00:39:56,923.3202952 So what that means is that what I look for and what I teach when it comes to accountability is that if you don't have that code of conduct for yourself in the world. 376 00:39:57,398.3202952 --> 00:40:01,62.1642952 If you're simply orienting to I just don't want, I want to make sure I don't piss off my girlfriend. 377 00:40:01,342.1642952 --> 00:40:03,152.1642952 Anytime I piss off my girlfriend, I know that's bad. 378 00:40:03,152.1642952 --> 00:40:06,422.1642952 So I say, sorry that's not, like saying, sorry, I get it again. 379 00:40:06,422.1642952 --> 00:40:08,542.1642952 When you piss off your girlfriend is not accountable. 380 00:40:08,902.1642952 --> 00:40:13,102.1642952 I don't, like that, even if you own it better than saying, sorry, I'm really own it. 381 00:40:13,152.1632952 --> 00:40:13,886.062522 That's not accountable. 382 00:40:13,886.062522 --> 00:40:18,476.8577952 Accountability is the dignity of saying matters to me to do the dishes. 383 00:40:19,386.8577952 --> 00:40:21,6.8577952 I care about filling out my word. 384 00:40:21,6.8577952 --> 00:40:23,716.8577952 I know it's not about, it pisses you off when I don't. 385 00:40:24,346.8577952 --> 00:40:30,96.8577952 I care about it, and I don't tend to trust apologies when they come without that piece. 386 00:40:30,566.9202952 --> 00:40:31,126.9202952 Yes. 387 00:40:31,266.8577952 --> 00:40:38,816.8577952 without the dynamic of, Oh, the person apologizing to me isn't just apologizing because they see that I'm hurt, and they want to make sure they get out of trouble. 388 00:40:39,956.8577952 --> 00:40:45,546.8567952 They're apologizing to me because they're acknowledging their breach of their own integrity, of their own standards. 389 00:40:46,456.8577952 --> 00:40:52,536.8577952 And they're letting me know in doing that, that it matters to them and I can trust that more. 390 00:40:52,806.8577952 --> 00:40:55,66.8577952 They're staking their integrity on a shift in behavior. 391 00:40:55,76.8577952 --> 00:40:57,236.8577952 They're staking their integrity on doing better. 392 00:40:58,146.9202952 --> 00:40:58,586.9202952 Yes. 393 00:40:58,836.8577952 --> 00:41:00,356.8577952 that much more. 394 00:41:00,676.8577952 --> 00:41:04,826.8577952 Then someone just obviously apologized to me because I guess you were hurt. 395 00:41:05,366.8577952 --> 00:41:06,586.8577952 I guess you were offended. 396 00:41:07,86.8577952 --> 00:41:08,466.8577952 I'm sorry you feel that way. 397 00:41:08,906.7952953 --> 00:41:09,306.7952953 sorry. 398 00:41:09,306.7952953 --> 00:41:12,136.7952953 You feel that way, right? Yeah. 399 00:41:12,186.8577952 --> 00:41:13,16.8577952 in another layer. 400 00:41:13,116.7952953 --> 00:41:13,576.7942953 I'm sorry. 401 00:41:13,576.7952953 --> 00:41:15,356.8577952 You were offended by my comment Right. 402 00:41:15,676.7952953 --> 00:41:16,736.7947953 the gaslighting apology. 403 00:41:16,736.7947953 --> 00:41:23,576.7947953 But even more than that do I care about not saying racist comments or is it just I just really shouldn't do that around you anymore? I've got it. 404 00:41:23,896.7957953 --> 00:41:24,776.7947953 Won't do that again. 405 00:41:26,206.8582952 --> 00:41:42,466.8582952 Yeah, and another layer here, if we factor in a power differential, if you're waiting around, if you're up power, whether it's up status or up role, if you're up power and you're waiting for the down power person to hold you accountable. 406 00:41:42,931.8582952 --> 00:41:52,291.8582952 It's so inappropriate because it's so there's so much vulnerability for the down power person, and they're not likely to give you honest feedback because of the power differential. 407 00:41:52,551.8582952 --> 00:42:03,611.8592952 So what you're essentially doing is saying I'm going to take permission to show up however I want, regardless of the impact on you, because I know you're not going to say otherwise. 408 00:42:04,131.7967953 --> 00:42:04,371.7967953 Yeah. 409 00:42:04,431.7967953 --> 00:42:05,631.7967953 And it might not be conscious. 410 00:42:05,731.7967953 --> 00:42:16,171.7967953 Most of the men I've worked with, I've worked with over a hundred men in like sustained engagements, like 500 men and like tiny environments or like small engagements or small conversations. 411 00:42:17,31.7967953 --> 00:42:20,271.7967953 I've really never encountered much maliciousness. 412 00:42:20,311.7957953 --> 00:42:23,915.6863644 I've never encountered like Machiavellian I'm going to abuse my power. 413 00:42:24,795.6863644 --> 00:42:27,216.2747953 It's not like this conscious choice often. 414 00:42:28,381.2747953 --> 00:42:36,161.2747953 say I'm relying on you not saying anything and that will allow me to get away with it. 415 00:42:36,171.2747953 --> 00:42:38,21.2747953 But it is unconsciously doing that. 416 00:42:38,166.3372952 --> 00:42:38,546.3372952 Right. 417 00:42:39,501.2747953 --> 00:42:48,286.3767953 And it's what I like to say is in my work, what I'm doing is trying, and I think you're doing the same thing I have a flashlight and a mirror, right? I don't have a club or a whip. 418 00:42:48,396.3767953 --> 00:42:49,376.4392952 This Exactly. 419 00:42:49,536.3767953 --> 00:42:56,96.3767953 But I have a flashlight and a mirror, right? I'm like holding the mirror up firmly and lovingly, right? I'm saying like, here is this mirror. 420 00:42:56,596.3767953 --> 00:43:03,506.3767953 You're telling me that you care about being compassionate, but you're also saying that you like stealth around condoms with a bunch of different women. 421 00:43:04,396.3767953 --> 00:43:13,631.3767953 You're telling me that you care about being a good man? But you're clearly taking advantage of your power by love bombing and then ghosting. 422 00:43:14,541.3767953 --> 00:43:23,581.3767953 I'm just holding this mirror up, now that you're like saying, Oh shit, I'm looking at myself in the mirror, I'm going to take this flashlight and I'm going to look at all this other stuff that's in this shadow behind you. 423 00:43:23,961.3777953 --> 00:43:25,131.3787953 Turn around, and I'll look at it. 424 00:43:25,221.3787953 --> 00:43:26,621.3787953 Oh, it's all there. 425 00:43:26,651.3787953 --> 00:43:27,481.3787953 Let's look at it together. 426 00:43:29,631.3787953 --> 00:43:52,311.3797953 That combined with some of the kinds of skills that Rupi teaches and how to do this well, and with gracefully how to do apology well, how to do proactive seeking of feedback well, how to do it without taking up too much space, without being too self aggrandizing, with also without being too self martyring or self flagellating, that could be a, it's transformative coaching opportunity. 427 00:43:52,321.3797953 --> 00:44:02,771.3797953 And it's radically different from the vast majority of coaching, which is my lineage which is just about how to do, especially for men, to make the capitalist wheel spin faster, how to make more money, get more women. 428 00:44:03,346.4422952 --> 00:44:03,746.4422952 Yeah. 429 00:44:04,736.4422952 --> 00:44:05,156.4422952 Yeah. 430 00:44:05,686.4422952 --> 00:44:11,506.4422952 This is first of all, I just want to say how much I admire your work. 431 00:44:11,576.4422952 --> 00:44:20,136.4422952 I wish there were more people out there doing what you're doing with the kind of skill and consciousness and care that you have. 432 00:44:20,136.4422952 --> 00:44:21,646.4422952 So thank you so much. 433 00:44:22,186.4422952 --> 00:44:26,746.4437952 There's a few people that I can they don't have big websites or anything, but there's people who are starting to get into it. 434 00:44:26,786.4437952 --> 00:44:32,331.5062952 Like I'm humbly putting myself out there as I'm trying a marketplace For this intervention. 435 00:44:32,566.5687952 --> 00:44:43,291.5057952 yeah, but I want to say that right now what the marketplace needs, like I don't, it's very hard for me to say that the marketplace needs men to be canceled or to men to be like, cause that just feels so like in my body. 436 00:44:43,291.5057952 --> 00:44:47,411.5067952 Cause know, I think cancellation is trauma and I prison abolitionists and I don't believe in punishment. 437 00:44:47,461.5067952 --> 00:44:50,621.5067952 And I think there's, it's very possible to be harmed and then to do more harm. 438 00:44:50,621.5067952 --> 00:44:53,206.5682952 And I actually pushed you Rupee a lot on this on yes. 439 00:44:54,51.5067952 --> 00:44:55,581.5067952 the responsibilities of. 440 00:44:56,681.5067952 --> 00:45:09,711.5057952 Like traditionally down power people who are now like radically disparaging or threatening someone who is not like some big celebrity with a bunch of power, but just another person in their community who they feel harmed by, and they're taking all their trauma out on one person. 441 00:45:09,711.5067952 --> 00:45:16,161.5067952 Like, how do we navigate that? How do we name the abuse of power in a variety of contexts? I don't tend to focus on that. 442 00:45:16,221.5067952 --> 00:45:25,131.5067952 I tend to focus on traditionally up power people, but just needed to say that, but there are people, there are other, not many, but this is a thing. 443 00:45:25,451.5692952 --> 00:45:25,881.5692952 Yeah. 444 00:45:25,901.5067952 --> 00:45:30,641.5692952 you, if I charge between 500 and 1, 200 an hour, Right. 445 00:45:31,201.5692952 --> 00:45:36,546.8992952 That's what's making my business work, but I'm also trying to expand the marketplace for this to make it more accessible. 446 00:45:36,546.8992952 --> 00:45:41,836.8982952 There three other people that I sometimes refer people who can't afford me to, who charge less. 447 00:45:41,886.8982952 --> 00:45:42,801.7982952 That I do is in house. 448 00:45:43,81.8982952 --> 00:45:47,541.8982952 is similar to work that the massive edifice of restorative justice practitioners do. 449 00:45:48,361.8982952 --> 00:45:53,901.8982952 I talked to a restorative justice practitioner one time and she was like, Oh, you've professionalized what we call prep. 450 00:45:54,496.9607952 --> 00:45:54,736.9607952 Yeah. 451 00:45:55,836.9607952 --> 00:45:56,136.9607952 Yeah. 452 00:45:56,506.9607952 --> 00:45:56,926.9607952 Totally. 453 00:45:57,51.8972952 --> 00:46:00,936.9607952 what you do is what we do with clients to prep them Yes. 454 00:46:01,51.8972952 --> 00:46:03,371.8992952 the mediation sessions for that's, you're just prepping. 455 00:46:03,706.9617952 --> 00:46:04,126.9617952 Yes. 456 00:46:04,181.8992952 --> 00:46:05,61.8992952 like, yeah, like that. 457 00:46:05,101.8992952 --> 00:46:06,885.0742952 I've just I've expanded and then created it. 458 00:46:07,440.1367952 --> 00:46:08,290.1367952 That's wonderful. 459 00:46:08,935.0742952 --> 00:46:09,275.0742952 Yeah. 460 00:46:09,595.0742952 --> 00:46:10,885.0752952 So yeah that's a thing. 461 00:46:11,285.0752952 --> 00:46:26,208.9755219 I realized that we're coming to the end of our time together and I wish that I had another two hours to have this conversation because I think particularly at the cross section of accountability and power, it needs to be talked about more. 462 00:46:27,38.9755219 --> 00:46:32,143.0617952 So maybe I'll invite you back on just to talk about that or something, but, Sure. 463 00:46:32,483.1252952 --> 00:46:36,533.1252952 I really appreciate you spending the time to have this conversation and. 464 00:46:37,863.1252952 --> 00:46:40,63.1252952 Yeah, I'm grateful that we're connected. 465 00:46:40,763.0617952 --> 00:46:41,563.0627952 And I am too. 466 00:46:41,853.0617952 --> 00:46:45,933.0252952 I'm going to, I'm going to I think I'd like to end with making some plugs for people Please. 467 00:46:45,962.9627952 --> 00:46:46,552.9627952 do more of this. 468 00:46:47,652.9627952 --> 00:46:47,802.9627952 Whew. 469 00:46:47,942.9627952 --> 00:46:48,432.9627952 Okay. 470 00:46:48,662.9627952 --> 00:47:04,387.9617952 For people who are really interested in the intersections of sex and power and some of my most influential reading, like academic reading, the work of Nora Samoran, including and especially the opposite of rape culture is nurturance culture incredible Canadian academic work. 471 00:47:04,448.0617952 --> 00:47:11,257.9617952 Amiya Srinivasan at Oxford a philosophy professor who talks about sex in incredibly erudite ways. 472 00:47:11,497.9617952 --> 00:47:22,387.9617952 Catherine Angel, also in England, another academic who talks and writes about oh, she has a great essay collection called Tomorrow Sex Will Be Good Again, which is a ironic Michelle Foucault quote. 473 00:47:23,507.9617952 --> 00:47:27,857.9617952 Outstanding, just some of the most brilliant minds at work on this kind of area. 474 00:47:28,87.9617952 --> 00:47:37,697.9617952 You often, you've turned me on to Julie Diamond who talked about like the way that power reinforces itself because people are less likely to speak truth to power. 475 00:47:37,697.9617952 --> 00:47:41,487.9607952 The more power we have, the less likely people are to tell us the truth, the more likely we are to keep acting in bad ways. 476 00:47:42,67.9617952 --> 00:47:42,787.9617952 Um, Dr. 477 00:47:42,787.9617952 --> 00:47:50,747.9597952 Keltner and his book exquisite the right use of power institute again and again, I think you are top of the market in this world. 478 00:47:51,217.9597952 --> 00:47:53,457.9597952 light dark institute is really potent. 479 00:47:53,527.9597952 --> 00:47:54,357.9597952 I cannot yeah. 480 00:47:54,357.9597952 --> 00:47:56,37.9597952 If you ever heard of that book, existential kink. 481 00:47:57,367.9597952 --> 00:48:00,127.9597952 The author was a student of the Light Dark Institute. 482 00:48:00,417.9597952 --> 00:48:01,57.9597952 Really potent. 483 00:48:01,297.9597952 --> 00:48:05,657.9587952 I'll also cite the work of the woman who helped awaken me. 484 00:48:06,277.9587952 --> 00:48:15,327.9587952 Really did awaken me to that piece about how a strong, the strongest form of accountability is recognizing where you violated your own standards. 485 00:48:15,657.9587952 --> 00:48:20,107.9587952 The Reverend Bridge Feltus at the Intersection for Mankind in Los Angeles. 486 00:48:20,551.859022 --> 00:48:32,669.0007952 She's also my anti racism mentor and advisor of my practice and another supervisor Marsha Boginski at creating consent culture and asking for what you want. 487 00:48:32,899.0017952 --> 00:48:33,339.0017952 com. 488 00:48:34,219.0017952 --> 00:48:38,189.0027952 Mia Schachter at consent wizardry, I think is some of the best thinking on this. 489 00:48:38,239.0017952 --> 00:48:41,639.0017952 I'll also cite Clementine Warrigan at fucking canceled. 490 00:48:41,964.0017952 --> 00:48:48,174.0017952 Who has a lot of really smart things to say about the various power dynamics on the left and the abdication of responsibility. 491 00:48:49,84.0017952 --> 00:48:51,44.0017952 and then of course my own website, evolve. 492 00:48:51,304.0017952 --> 00:48:58,174.0017952 men and my Instagram handle, Misha, M I S C H A, by Rick B Y R U C K. 493 00:48:59,44.0017952 --> 00:48:59,444.0017952 that's it. 494 00:48:59,799.0642952 --> 00:49:00,339.0642952 Awesome. 495 00:49:00,349.0642952 --> 00:49:03,399.0642952 Thank you for those resources, and we'll also put those in the show notes. 496 00:49:03,749.0642952 --> 00:49:08,79.0632952 And if you don't mind sending the links that you have, we will include those. 497 00:49:08,529.0642952 --> 00:49:13,569.0647952 Misha, thank you so much for joining us today, and I look forward to future conversations. 498 00:49:15,394.0032952 --> 00:49:16,494.0012952 It's been such a joy. 499 00:49:18,239.1272952 --> 00:49:18,716.06122 Thanks. 500 00:49:48,207.2703757 --> 00:49:50,677.2703757 Thank you for listening to the power dynamic podcast. 501 00:49:51,127.2703757 --> 00:49:56,347.2703757 If you'd like to follow along, remember to like, and subscribe so you don't 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