November 18, 2024 • 21 mins
A 2024 ERO report put the spotlight on rising levels of violence and disruption in schools. It’s a trend being seen around the world, and it’s become worse in New Zealand in the last couple of years. Most people stepping into the tumuaki role will have seen poor behaviour in their own classrooms, but what powers do tumuaki have that teachers don’t, and what can tumuaki do to try to mitigate bad behaviour in their schools?
My guests this week are:
- Vaughan Couillault, President NZ Secondary Principals Assn, Papatoetoe High School
- Leanne Otene, President New Zealand Principals Federation, Manaia View School
- Gretchen Stone, education lawyer
This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education as part of Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals.
You can learn more about this topic by accessing Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals e-learning modules on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz
Show notes
Episode themes:
- Increasing acuteness of behaviour, especially in very young children; increasing levels of defiance in older children that is reflected in some parents.
- Building a good relationship with parents as a preventative measure to deal with possible future issues.
- Gretchen has traditionally run sessions on things like managing difficult students and difficult teachers, and has now added sessions on dealing with difficult parents because this has become an issue for principals.
- The impact of covid lockdowns on student behaviour.
- What tumuaki can do when it comes to managing student behaviour.
- Stand-down and suspension guidelines.
- Difficult parents vs very difficult parents, and the different ways you can deal with them.
Additional information
New Zealand Principals Federation https://nzpf.ac.nz
Secondary Principals Association of New Zealand https://www.spanz.school.nz
ERO report – Time to Focus: Behaviour in our Classrooms https://evidence.ero.govt.nz/documents/time-to-focus-behaviour-in-our-classrooms-summary
Stand-downs, suspensions, exclusions and expulsions guidelines https://www.education.govt.nz/school/managing-and-supporting-students/student-behaviour-help-and-guidance/stand-downs-suspensions-exclusions-and-expulsions-guidelines/
Questions
Eleisha 1:42 [Vaughan and Leanne] Were either of you surprised by the findings of that report earlier this year around behaviour in schools?
Eleisha 4:33 [Vaughan and Leanne] What kinds of behaviour have you each seen in your kura that has surprised you in the last few years?
Eleisha 7:35 [All] Do you think parent disengagement is contributing to that behaviour, or do you think there are other reasons why it's become increasingly bad over the last few years?
Eleisha 9:43 [Vaughan and Leanne] Do you think Covid has contributed to it in a big way? Or do you think that it's been snowballing over the last few years?
Eleisha 12:00 [Gretchen] People stepping into the tumuaki role have been teachers themselves so they will have seen poor behaviour in their own classrooms. But what powers do tumuaki have that teachers don't?
Eleisha 13:06 [All] What’s the best way for new tumuaki to get their heads around rules around stand down, suspension, exclusion and expulsion rules and regulations?
Eleisha 17:32 [Gretchen] What advic
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eleisha (00:08):
Kia ora, and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new tumuaki in Aotearoa NewZealand. I'm Eleisha McNeill,
thanks for joining me. Todaywe're here to talk about
managing behavior. Now I thoughtwe'd just be talking about
managing student behavior, butit turns out parent behavior is
just as bad. So we're going tobe talking about both today. A
(00:29):
reminder that you can learn moreabout this topic and many others
in the e-learning modules andyou can find a link to those in
the show notes. This is thefirst of two episodes with my
three guests.
Leanne (00:40):
Tēnā koe. Ko Leanne Otene aho. Ko te manukura o Ngā
Tumuaki o Aotearoa. So I'mLeanne Otene, I'm the president
of the New Zealand PrincipalsFederation.
Vaughan (00:51):
Kia ora koutou. My name is Vaughan Couillault, and I am
the president of the SecondaryPrincipals Association and also
the principal at Papatoetoe HighSchool in Auckland.
Eleisha (01:01):
Kia ora, Gretchen.
Gretchen (01:03):
Tēnā koutou, my name is Gretchen Stone and I'm an
education lawyer. I work in thearea of education and employment
and have done so for a number ofyears and we are the SPANZ
Secondary Principals Associationlegal advice line lawyers and I
work with Richard Harrison inproviding support and advice to
secondary principals.
Eleisha (01:22):
Fabulous. Thank you very much. A recent ERO report
put the spotlight on risinglevels of violence and
disruption in schools and it'sobviously not a problem that's
unique to New Zealand, but it'scertainly something that's been
growing in in recent years,particularly. Vaughan and Leanne,
were either of you surprised bythe findings of that report
(01:46):
earlier this year aroundbehaviour in schools?
Leanne (01:49):
Now, principals and teachers have been talking for
many years about the concernsthey have around behaviour, and
especially about the fact thatwe have increased numbers of
incidents but also more and morestudents displaying behaviours
that just are making it verydifficult for teaching and
learning to progress in some ofthe classrooms. Now ERO came to
(02:12):
NZPF earlier last year anddiscussed with us some research
topics and we obviouslysuggested that they look at
behaviour in classrooms as weneeded a spotlight put on this
because we've been talking aboutit for years and yet nothing had
been happening, no significantprogress had been made in and
(02:32):
around the supports that wereneeded for schools. So you know,
and the impact it was having onthe learning of students was
just getting worse and worse andworse. We also knew that if what
teachers were alerting us to wascorrect, we needed that evidence
to be able to then, you know,push for more supports for the
staffing and resourcing torespond. So I'm not surprised at
(02:54):
all with the results. You know,it's very clear that we need to
put some initiatives in place.
Eleisha (03:01):
Mm. What about you,Vaughan ?
Vaughan (03:03):
Without being that kid in the class that goes 'what she
said'.
Leanne (03:07):
Haha.
Vaughan (03:08):
That. And in terms of were we surprised - no because
I'm still a practising principalon the ground and Leanne's very
well connected to practisingprincipals on the ground as well.
And so we we see this every day.What we are experiencing that
perhaps for me wasn't sosurprising but it was
disappointing was the level ofparental disengagement that
(03:33):
essentially fuels the poorbehaviour that we're seeing with
students. And rather thanbacking the school and
supporting the school to say,hey, how can we work together to
improve the behaviour of theyoung one, parents getting
really litigious on it andwanting the book thrown at the
other side when their child isthe victim, but only empathy and
(03:53):
a second chance when their childis the offender. Rather
Eleisha (03:56):
Mm
Vaughan (03:56):
than trusting the systems and processes that we
have in place to help modifybehaviour. And also from a
practitioner on the ground, Ijust have to say, whilst there
may be argument about quantumnot necessarily increasing in
terms of stuff, the stand downsand suspensions from a secondary
perspective, the acuteness ofthe behaviour is is
(04:17):
deteriorating or is increasingrapidly. You're getting, whilst
we're not necessarilyexperiencing more fights, for
want of a better phrase, theviolence that's being displayed
in those fights or the weaponsthat are being brought to those
or the outside influence inthose is significant.
Eleisha (04:33):
hmm. So what, what kinds of behaviour have you each
seen in your kura that hassurprised you in the last few
years?
Leanne (04:43):
I think for us it's the, the five year olds, you know,
once upon a time if we sawbehaviours in our schools, they
were in our older students andyou know, and we knew that it
was about creating anenvironment, creating a culture
in our schools that was positiveand putting in lots of
preventative measures andstrategies for teachers to be
(05:03):
able to deal with it. What we'reseeing now is that five year
olds are coming to school withsome extreme behaviours and you
know, there's a lot um unable toexpress themselves through
speech or they're not able tocontrol their feelings. And so
they just lash out, so they gofrom zero to hero in seconds.
(05:25):
And there are, what we wouldhave seen in the past was some
triggers, you know, we would
Eleisha (05:29):
Hmm.
Leanne (05:29):
have identified in a a year seven or year 6 student oh
you know, if you do this, thisis what's going to happen. Or,
you know, they easily will spinoff if, you know, because of a
particular what I call ABC theantecedent before the
consequence where there's areason for their behaviour. But
the five
Eleisha (05:46):
Hmm.
Leanne (05:46):
year olds there doesn't seem to be any reason.They just
flip and there's large numbersof the five year olds coming in.
And so we're asking the question,what is this? Why is this
happening? And, you know, we canput it down to FASD we can put
it down to ADHD, we can put itdown to all of those things. Bu
when we've got no diagnostictools to use with five year olds
(06:09):
it makes it really difficult tomanage those behaviours.
Eleisha (06:12):
And, Vaughan, what about at secondary level?
Vaughan (06:15):
I suppose other than the acuteness and the quantum
for me the, the big increase isthat defiance. School fights
have been happening forgenerations, right. When you get
a whole lot of adolescents withfrontal lobes that are a little
bit underdeveloped, there'sgoing to be some inability to
manage conflict in a rationalway because they're adolescents
(06:36):
with an underdeveloped frontallobe. However, the the just flat
out defiance of oh, who do youthink you are to tell me what to
do, but by the way, I'm onlytelling you to go to class
because it's not lunch timeanymore. That's
Eleisha (06:47):
Mm hmm.
Vaughan (06:47):
a fairly reasonable request from a teacher to a
student. And that, theindignance, actually of how dare
you, as a grown up, have theaudacity to ask me to comply
with a fairly normal rule. Andthat also flows into the adult
population that support thoseyoung people. You know, don't
tell me how to be a parent. Youknow, I've had a youth worker go
(07:09):
in and knocking on the door andsaying, hey, would you mind
supporting us and gettingVaughan out of bed so that he
gets to school every day andliterally been abused, sworn at
and and told, don't tell me howto parent my kids when actually
all we're trying to do is makesure their kid's at school by 8.
45. So a lot of that communityindifference and oppositional
(07:32):
defiance disorder type stuff.
Eleisha (07:35):
And so do you think that, parent disengagement is
contributing to that behaviour,or do you think there are other
reasons why it's becomeincreasingly bad over the last
few years?
Leanne (07:45):
Well look there's internal and external factors at
play here. You know societalissues have a huge impact on the
emotional states of our youngpeople, and Vaughan's right, you
know, parents play a huge partin that,and so that relationship
between the school and parentshas to be about being
(08:05):
preventative, being ready tohave those difficult
conversations with parents. Soone of the things that primary
schools do particularly well isform relationships with those
parents very quickly when theyenrol at school, knowing full
well that down the track wemight be having a more difficult
conversation about thebehaviours that their child is
(08:25):
having. So, you know, at primaryschool is very much about
preventative, of course
Eleisha (08:29):
Mm.
Leanne (08:29):
there's consequences, but if you've got a relationship
with a parent well, there'schances are you're still going
to have push back as Vaughan'stalked about, but you're at
least have got a relationshipthat has been based on a
positive start. And, you know,so we put a lot of emphasis in
at primary school aroundpreventative measures and
(08:49):
working with parents is one ofthem.
Eleisha (08:51):
Mm.
Gretchen (08:52):
Can I just also reiterate what Vaughan was
talking about there and whatyou've both spoken about in
terms of parents and the way inwhich they are behaving toward
the school, is I dopresentations for new principals
and ongoing presentations aroundlegal areas that need to be
looked out for. And previously Ihave never done sessions around
(09:14):
managing difficult parents. I domanaging difficult teachers and
managing difficult students. NowI do do a session on managing
difficult parents, and
Eleisha (09:22):
hmm.
Gretchen (09:23):
I'll probably say it's about the most popular and
people turn up in droves to talkabout how do we manage these
parents? So I've really, reallynoticed that probably in the
last three or four years, to theextent that, yeah, I've got sort
of a legal session on it, eventhough there's actually no
legislation that coversobviously managing a difficult
parent.
Eleisha (09:43):
Wow. Do you think, covid has contributed to it in a
big way? Or do you think thatit's it's it's just been kind of
snowballing over the last fewyears?
Leanne (09:54):
I think it brought a spotlight to it. You
Eleisha (09:56):
Mm
Leanne (09:56):
know, we were now dealing with children who had
trauma. because they hadn't beenin social settings, had
anti-social behaviour. Parentshad anti-social behaviour. But,
you know, we're a long way pastcovid now. And those were
reasons given, they're now in myopinion, excuses, because we've
had a chance to re-socialise andset those high expectations
(10:18):
around behaviours again. Ofcourse you know trauma has
always been there, but you know,we were seeing trauma in
students that didn't necessarilyhave behaviour issues in the
past, you know, they didn't fitthe demographic, dare I say it,
and you know, so that put aspotlight on it. So yeah, covid
did play a part, but I thinkit's just an excuse now
Eleisha (10:40):
You agree, Vaughan?
Vaughan (10:42):
Yeah to a degree, because when you look at this
year's Year 11 cohort, they inmy opinion, were the group of
students most affected by thelockdown periods, they were the
ones that had just gone intoyear seven when covid hit in
2020. And so a significant timein particularly in Auckland and
and um Waikato and Northlandthat were significantly affected
(11:04):
by ongoing lockdowns into thefollowing year. But the students
that we have in year eleven nowwere, fairly average in terms of
their behaviour in year nine andyear ten and we are also
experimenting on that same groupof students with regard to a new
qualification. So thisparticular group seem to have
been hit left, right and centreby things and when you are
(11:27):
perhaps disengaged and youhaven't developed that early
foundation of meaningfullearning relationships yep,
they've moved on to high school,but the backfill of what needed
to happen at intermediate schoolcan also be quite a challenge.
Around the outsides of that I'mprobably a little bit in
Leanne's camp with that was awhile ago, we've had plenty of
time to recover from the damageof that, so we need to get on
(11:50):
with getting on. It was okay notbe okay for a period of time,
but if you allow yourself to beunwell for a long, long period
of time, you've got to take someresponsibility for getting it
right.
Eleisha (12:00):
Totally, and Gretchen, people stepping into the tumuaki
role have been teachersthemselves. So they will have
seen poor behavior in their ownclassrooms. But what powers do
tumuaki have that teachers don't?
Gretchen (12:13):
So the key power that tumuaki has is section 80 of the
Education and Training Act, andthat's the ability to suspend or
to stand down a student. It'sthe only way in which a tumuaki
can keep a student away fromschool. And it's the exercise of
a of a statutory discretionbecause it gives tumuaki the
(12:36):
power to suspend or stand downbut doesn't require it. And so
that's the relevant legislation.And then there's education stand
down suspension, exclusion andexpulsion rules that sit
Eleisha (12:50):
Hmm.
Gretchen (12:50):
underneath that, and then further down again are the
stand down and suspensionguidelines that have been
crafted by the Ministry. Andthat's the hierarchy of law that
relates to the tumuaki'sdecision to stand down or
suspend.
Eleisha (13:06):
And so the best way that for new tumuaki to get
their heads around how that allworks is to come to some
sessions, do some PD sessions?What's the best way for them to
learn about that?
Gretchen (13:17):
I actually think the guidelines are quite a good
start because I do find themquite readable and
straightforward. So when you'reactually looking at the
possibility of a suspension or astand down, actually, you know,
having already been familiarwith the outline, at least of
the guidelines, I do think it'sa really good starting point and
just realising, I guess, thatyou are in that space and that
(13:40):
you are exercising your powerunder under the act, that it's
only the tumuaki that can makethat decision. They can't
delegate it to anyone else andjust the framework that they're
operating in, the stand downoption, the suspension option,
there's also a third optionunder section 80, which is a
sort of a safety grounds becauseof the student's behaviour, it
(14:02):
is likely that the student orother students - so it's very
student based - would beseriously harmed if the student
were not stood down or suspended.
Eleisha (14:09):
Hmm.
Gretchen (14:09):
So
Eleisha (14:09):
Hmm
Gretchen (14:10):
you've got
Eleisha (14:10):
hmm
Gretchen (14:10):
that that third category as well there. So I
think it's just even having thatframework in your head that
you're operating within. But yes,there's these good resources
around, you know, that you canthat you can attend for
education, you know, in thelegal space, I think also having
a good network because, you know,as we all know, the role of
(14:31):
principal can be quite isolatingand you can get a terribly
behaved student and think you'rethe only school ever who's who's
had such a unusual arrangementof horrible issues. And then you
speak to a principal who's beenin the job for 20 years, and,
you know, it's happened six oreight times, you know, and I
(14:53):
think just the level of supportthat's available through your
principal network. So sometimesI find the conferences as much
value in the in the morning teabreak as the legal sessions
possibly you know, just and justknowing where to go when you
need that support.
Vaughan (15:06):
I think also Eleisha, that someone being appointed to
a principal's role, particularlyin the secondary space they're
not new to suspensions and standdowns and would have been part
of that process as a deputyprincipal. And so one would have
hoped they'd developed theirskill set over that time. And so
if it's completely new field ofendeavour for a new principal,
that would actually cause me abit of concern because they
(15:28):
should have had some exposure tothat as they move through their
career. But ringing a mate isalways a good idea. That's what
lawyers call a network is whatpractitioners call ring a buddy.
Leanne (15:39):
Yeah, I would absolutely have to agree with Vaughan. It's
a little bit different inprimary sector. We don't always
go through the pathway of DP, APinto principalship, especially
in our rural schools. So beingable to ring up, you know, your
association or the principaldown the road is is really key
to getting the support that youneed. And you know, I'll
(16:00):
highlight here that behaviour isone of those things that
principals we find mostdifficult because you're dealing
with people with emotions. Soyou know, while the guideline
and I totally agree with you,Gretchen, the guideline is
really great, but when you're ina room and you've got emotions
flying left, right and centreand you know, especially if
you've got difficult parents whowho are finding every reason in
(16:23):
the book why their childshouldn't be, you know, held
accountable for their behaviourand all the blame is being put
on, on the school, a principalcan feel very much at risk. Yes,
it's their responsibility, butyou know, they should not ever
feel like they're alone in that.
Eleisha (16:39):
hmm hmm hmm
Leanne (16:40):
Whether it's talking through that with that the mate
down the road, but also withtheir board, making sure their
board's got their back becauseultimately if a child is
excluded, that's the board'sdecision, right, the principal
can put them through to theboard and that's really
indicating to that whānau thatthey have tried absolutely
(17:01):
everything that is available.And, you know, that's what I say
to new and principals.Is thatthe reason you'd end up in front
of an, um the board is becauseyou've tried absolutely
everything possible and you'vetold parents and they've been
part of that process up to thatstage, you know, it shouldn't be
an absolute surprise that theirchild is faced with this sort of
(17:25):
consequence. So yeah, whilstit's good to have the guideline
there, it's also good to havethat mate down the road.
Eleisha (17:32):
Gretchen hearing all this about difficult parents, I
really wondering what advice yougive in your sessions for new
tumuaki about dealing with withparents who, you know, perhaps
are surprised that their child'sbeing held accountable for
something?
Gretchen (17:48):
Yeah, well the session's probably about an hour
long these days. So, so I do gothrough quite a bit and what I
do categorise are parents into,which I think tumuaki have found
quite helpful, is your averagelydifficult parent who's just a
bit overanxious and overinvestedand such, and your very
(18:08):
difficult parent. And the verydifficult ones is probably what
I'm seeing more. They can take ahuge amount of time for a
principal, the reason. Thereason that I create that
distinction and it's obviouslynot scientific in the least, but
is your strategy for resolutionwith a very difficult parent who
perhaps has their own mentalhealth issues is vastly
(18:29):
different from all thestrategies that tumuaki know so
well in dealing with youraveragely difficult parent who's
just a bit overanxious and such,you give up on your strategy of
trying to meet with them andtrying to work toward resolution.
I've heard these folks beingcalled conflict entrepreneurs,
and it tends to be more in thatspace. So they are trying to
(18:52):
create more conflict rather thanresolve it. So I'm talking to
them about about those parentsin particular and sort of the
steps that are in place, it's IT,it's I mean, you can trespass,
there's communication protocolswhich know the Ministry worked
with a school a while ago andthey have turned that into quite
a useful template. So there's,there's various strategies, none
(19:15):
of which as I say areparticularly legal because, you
know, parents don't have a legalstatus as against in schools. I
mean, there's certainobligations, but as I say, I
think tumuaki have found thatcategorization quite helpful,
really, just to the way in whichthey're trying to manage it and
just making sure they're gettingsupport, because I've seen very,
very experienced tumuaki getclose to the edge of their
(19:38):
ability to cope with just oneextremely difficult parent. You
know, some simple things likenot playing email ping pong, but
that's probably a strategy you'duse for a lot of issues. But yes,
so just a, just the whole worldof of of practical tips really
is is probably what we've gotthrough my experience in just
dealing with difficult parents.But as I say, really noticing
(20:00):
that very difficult parentcategory increasing.
Leanne (20:03):
And I think I could just add to that what Gretchen's
talking about, that we oftenterm de-escalation. So it's not
about de-escalating behavioursof young people, but it's being
aware of needing to de-escalatesituations with parents.
Eleisha (20:18):
hmm.
Leanne (20:18):
That's become something that we are very well aware of.
And we know that if we have afew strategies that we work on
developing and adding more toour kete I guess, of of how we
deal with difficult situationsand behaviours of both children
and parents, we need many,because whilst we've got two
(20:39):
categories of parents, they comewith a whole heap of differences
in terms of the way that theyreact from verbal ab abuse to
unfortunately nowadays we'reseeing physical abuse of
principals too in thosesituations. So being aware of
de-escalation is very important.
Eleisha (20:56):
Hmm. Some great information there. Thank you. In
the next episode, we're going toget into the nitty gritty of
preventative measures tumuakican take around the behavior of
ākonga, behavior managementframeworks and the importance of
a consistent approach. Ka kiteano.
Kia ora, and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new tumuaki in Aotearoa NewZealand. I'm Eleisha McNeill,
thanks for joining me. Todaywe're here to talk about
managing behavior. Now I thoughtwe'd just be talking about
managing student behavior, butit turns out parent behavior is
just as bad. So we're going tobe talking about both today. A
(00:29):
reminder that you can learn moreabout this topic and many others
in the e-learning modules andyou can find a link to those in
the show notes. This is thefirst of two episodes with my
three guests.
Leanne (00:40):
Tēnā koe. Ko Leanne Otene aho. Ko te manukura o Ngā
Tumuaki o Aotearoa. So I'mLeanne Otene, I'm the president
of the New Zealand PrincipalsFederation.
Vaughan (00:51):
Kia ora koutou. My name is Vaughan Couillault, and I am
the president of the SecondaryPrincipals Association and also
the principal at Papatoetoe HighSchool in Auckland.
Eleisha (01:01):
Kia ora, Gretchen.
Gretchen (01:03):
Tēnā koutou, my name is Gretchen Stone and I'm an
education lawyer. I work in thearea of education and employment
and have done so for a number ofyears and we are the SPANZ
Secondary Principals Associationlegal advice line lawyers and I
work with Richard Harrison inproviding support and advice to
secondary principals.
Eleisha (01:22):
Fabulous. Thank you very much. A recent ERO report
put the spotlight on risinglevels of violence and
disruption in schools and it'sobviously not a problem that's
unique to New Zealand, but it'scertainly something that's been
growing in in recent years,particularly. Vaughan and Leanne,
were either of you surprised bythe findings of that report
(01:46):
earlier this year aroundbehaviour in schools?
Leanne (01:49):
Now, principals and teachers have been talking for
many years about the concernsthey have around behaviour, and
especially about the fact thatwe have increased numbers of
incidents but also more and morestudents displaying behaviours
that just are making it verydifficult for teaching and
learning to progress in some ofthe classrooms. Now ERO came to
(02:12):
NZPF earlier last year anddiscussed with us some research
topics and we obviouslysuggested that they look at
behaviour in classrooms as weneeded a spotlight put on this
because we've been talking aboutit for years and yet nothing had
been happening, no significantprogress had been made in and
(02:32):
around the supports that wereneeded for schools. So you know,
and the impact it was having onthe learning of students was
just getting worse and worse andworse. We also knew that if what
teachers were alerting us to wascorrect, we needed that evidence
to be able to then, you know,push for more supports for the
staffing and resourcing torespond. So I'm not surprised at
(02:54):
all with the results. You know,it's very clear that we need to
put some initiatives in place.
Eleisha (03:01):
Mm. What about you,Vaughan ?
Vaughan (03:03):
Without being that kid in the class that goes 'what she
said'.
Leanne (03:07):
Haha.
Vaughan (03:08):
That. And in terms of were we surprised - no because
I'm still a practising principalon the ground and Leanne's very
well connected to practisingprincipals on the ground as well.
And so we we see this every day.What we are experiencing that
perhaps for me wasn't sosurprising but it was
disappointing was the level ofparental disengagement that
(03:33):
essentially fuels the poorbehaviour that we're seeing with
students. And rather thanbacking the school and
supporting the school to say,hey, how can we work together to
improve the behaviour of theyoung one, parents getting
really litigious on it andwanting the book thrown at the
other side when their child isthe victim, but only empathy and
(03:53):
a second chance when their childis the offender. Rather
Eleisha (03:56):
Mm
Vaughan (03:56):
than trusting the systems and processes that we
have in place to help modifybehaviour. And also from a
practitioner on the ground, Ijust have to say, whilst there
may be argument about quantumnot necessarily increasing in
terms of stuff, the stand downsand suspensions from a secondary
perspective, the acuteness ofthe behaviour is is
(04:17):
deteriorating or is increasingrapidly. You're getting, whilst
we're not necessarilyexperiencing more fights, for
want of a better phrase, theviolence that's being displayed
in those fights or the weaponsthat are being brought to those
or the outside influence inthose is significant.
Eleisha (04:33):
hmm. So what, what kinds of behaviour have you each
seen in your kura that hassurprised you in the last few
years?
Leanne (04:43):
I think for us it's the, the five year olds, you know,
once upon a time if we sawbehaviours in our schools, they
were in our older students andyou know, and we knew that it
was about creating anenvironment, creating a culture
in our schools that was positiveand putting in lots of
preventative measures andstrategies for teachers to be
(05:03):
able to deal with it. What we'reseeing now is that five year
olds are coming to school withsome extreme behaviours and you
know, there's a lot um unable toexpress themselves through
speech or they're not able tocontrol their feelings. And so
they just lash out, so they gofrom zero to hero in seconds.
(05:25):
And there are, what we wouldhave seen in the past was some
triggers, you know, we would
Eleisha (05:29):
Hmm.
Leanne (05:29):
have identified in a a year seven or year 6 student oh
you know, if you do this, thisis what's going to happen. Or,
you know, they easily will spinoff if, you know, because of a
particular what I call ABC theantecedent before the
consequence where there's areason for their behaviour. But
the five
Eleisha (05:46):
Hmm.
Leanne (05:46):
year olds there doesn't seem to be any reason.They just
flip and there's large numbersof the five year olds coming in.
And so we're asking the question,what is this? Why is this
happening? And, you know, we canput it down to FASD we can put
it down to ADHD, we can put itdown to all of those things. Bu
when we've got no diagnostictools to use with five year olds
(06:09):
it makes it really difficult tomanage those behaviours.
Eleisha (06:12):
And, Vaughan, what about at secondary level?
Vaughan (06:15):
I suppose other than the acuteness and the quantum
for me the, the big increase isthat defiance. School fights
have been happening forgenerations, right. When you get
a whole lot of adolescents withfrontal lobes that are a little
bit underdeveloped, there'sgoing to be some inability to
manage conflict in a rationalway because they're adolescents
(06:36):
with an underdeveloped frontallobe. However, the the just flat
out defiance of oh, who do youthink you are to tell me what to
do, but by the way, I'm onlytelling you to go to class
because it's not lunch timeanymore. That's
Eleisha (06:47):
Mm hmm.
Vaughan (06:47):
a fairly reasonable request from a teacher to a
student. And that, theindignance, actually of how dare
you, as a grown up, have theaudacity to ask me to comply
with a fairly normal rule. Andthat also flows into the adult
population that support thoseyoung people. You know, don't
tell me how to be a parent. Youknow, I've had a youth worker go
(07:09):
in and knocking on the door andsaying, hey, would you mind
supporting us and gettingVaughan out of bed so that he
gets to school every day andliterally been abused, sworn at
and and told, don't tell me howto parent my kids when actually
all we're trying to do is makesure their kid's at school by 8.
45. So a lot of that communityindifference and oppositional
(07:32):
defiance disorder type stuff.
Eleisha (07:35):
And so do you think that, parent disengagement is
contributing to that behaviour,or do you think there are other
reasons why it's becomeincreasingly bad over the last
few years?
Leanne (07:45):
Well look there's internal and external factors at
play here. You know societalissues have a huge impact on the
emotional states of our youngpeople, and Vaughan's right, you
know, parents play a huge partin that,and so that relationship
between the school and parentshas to be about being
(08:05):
preventative, being ready tohave those difficult
conversations with parents. Soone of the things that primary
schools do particularly well isform relationships with those
parents very quickly when theyenrol at school, knowing full
well that down the track wemight be having a more difficult
conversation about thebehaviours that their child is
(08:25):
having. So, you know, at primaryschool is very much about
preventative, of course
Eleisha (08:29):
Mm.
Leanne (08:29):
there's consequences, but if you've got a relationship
with a parent well, there'schances are you're still going
to have push back as Vaughan'stalked about, but you're at
least have got a relationshipthat has been based on a
positive start. And, you know,so we put a lot of emphasis in
at primary school aroundpreventative measures and
(08:49):
working with parents is one ofthem.
Eleisha (08:51):
Mm.
Gretchen (08:52):
Can I just also reiterate what Vaughan was
talking about there and whatyou've both spoken about in
terms of parents and the way inwhich they are behaving toward
the school, is I dopresentations for new principals
and ongoing presentations aroundlegal areas that need to be
looked out for. And previously Ihave never done sessions around
(09:14):
managing difficult parents. I domanaging difficult teachers and
managing difficult students. NowI do do a session on managing
difficult parents, and
Eleisha (09:22):
hmm.
Gretchen (09:23):
I'll probably say it's about the most popular and
people turn up in droves to talkabout how do we manage these
parents? So I've really, reallynoticed that probably in the
last three or four years, to theextent that, yeah, I've got sort
of a legal session on it, eventhough there's actually no
legislation that coversobviously managing a difficult
parent.
Eleisha (09:43):
Wow. Do you think, covid has contributed to it in a
big way? Or do you think thatit's it's it's just been kind of
snowballing over the last fewyears?
Leanne (09:54):
I think it brought a spotlight to it. You
Eleisha (09:56):
Mm
Leanne (09:56):
know, we were now dealing with children who had
trauma. because they hadn't beenin social settings, had
anti-social behaviour. Parentshad anti-social behaviour. But,
you know, we're a long way pastcovid now. And those were
reasons given, they're now in myopinion, excuses, because we've
had a chance to re-socialise andset those high expectations
(10:18):
around behaviours again. Ofcourse you know trauma has
always been there, but you know,we were seeing trauma in
students that didn't necessarilyhave behaviour issues in the
past, you know, they didn't fitthe demographic, dare I say it,
and you know, so that put aspotlight on it. So yeah, covid
did play a part, but I thinkit's just an excuse now
Eleisha (10:40):
You agree, Vaughan?
Vaughan (10:42):
Yeah to a degree, because when you look at this
year's Year 11 cohort, they inmy opinion, were the group of
students most affected by thelockdown periods, they were the
ones that had just gone intoyear seven when covid hit in
2020. And so a significant timein particularly in Auckland and
and um Waikato and Northlandthat were significantly affected
(11:04):
by ongoing lockdowns into thefollowing year. But the students
that we have in year eleven nowwere, fairly average in terms of
their behaviour in year nine andyear ten and we are also
experimenting on that same groupof students with regard to a new
qualification. So thisparticular group seem to have
been hit left, right and centreby things and when you are
(11:27):
perhaps disengaged and youhaven't developed that early
foundation of meaningfullearning relationships yep,
they've moved on to high school,but the backfill of what needed
to happen at intermediate schoolcan also be quite a challenge.
Around the outsides of that I'mprobably a little bit in
Leanne's camp with that was awhile ago, we've had plenty of
time to recover from the damageof that, so we need to get on
(11:50):
with getting on. It was okay notbe okay for a period of time,
but if you allow yourself to beunwell for a long, long period
of time, you've got to take someresponsibility for getting it
right.
Eleisha (12:00):
Totally, and Gretchen, people stepping into the tumuaki
role have been teachersthemselves. So they will have
seen poor behavior in their ownclassrooms. But what powers do
tumuaki have that teachers don't?
Gretchen (12:13):
So the key power that tumuaki has is section 80 of the
Education and Training Act, andthat's the ability to suspend or
to stand down a student. It'sthe only way in which a tumuaki
can keep a student away fromschool. And it's the exercise of
a of a statutory discretionbecause it gives tumuaki the
(12:36):
power to suspend or stand downbut doesn't require it. And so
that's the relevant legislation.And then there's education stand
down suspension, exclusion andexpulsion rules that sit
Eleisha (12:50):
Hmm.
Gretchen (12:50):
underneath that, and then further down again are the
stand down and suspensionguidelines that have been
crafted by the Ministry. Andthat's the hierarchy of law that
relates to the tumuaki'sdecision to stand down or
suspend.
Eleisha (13:06):
And so the best way that for new tumuaki to get
their heads around how that allworks is to come to some
sessions, do some PD sessions?What's the best way for them to
learn about that?
Gretchen (13:17):
I actually think the guidelines are quite a good
start because I do find themquite readable and
straightforward. So when you'reactually looking at the
possibility of a suspension or astand down, actually, you know,
having already been familiarwith the outline, at least of
the guidelines, I do think it'sa really good starting point and
just realising, I guess, thatyou are in that space and that
(13:40):
you are exercising your powerunder under the act, that it's
only the tumuaki that can makethat decision. They can't
delegate it to anyone else andjust the framework that they're
operating in, the stand downoption, the suspension option,
there's also a third optionunder section 80, which is a
sort of a safety grounds becauseof the student's behaviour, it
(14:02):
is likely that the student orother students - so it's very
student based - would beseriously harmed if the student
were not stood down or suspended.
Eleisha (14:09):
Hmm.
Gretchen (14:09):
So
Eleisha (14:09):
Hmm
Gretchen (14:10):
you've got
Eleisha (14:10):
hmm
Gretchen (14:10):
that that third category as well there. So I
think it's just even having thatframework in your head that
you're operating within. But yes,there's these good resources
around, you know, that you canthat you can attend for
education, you know, in thelegal space, I think also having
a good network because, you know,as we all know, the role of
(14:31):
principal can be quite isolatingand you can get a terribly
behaved student and think you'rethe only school ever who's who's
had such a unusual arrangementof horrible issues. And then you
speak to a principal who's beenin the job for 20 years, and,
you know, it's happened six oreight times, you know, and I
(14:53):
think just the level of supportthat's available through your
principal network. So sometimesI find the conferences as much
value in the in the morning teabreak as the legal sessions
possibly you know, just and justknowing where to go when you
need that support.
Vaughan (15:06):
I think also Eleisha, that someone being appointed to
a principal's role, particularlyin the secondary space they're
not new to suspensions and standdowns and would have been part
of that process as a deputyprincipal. And so one would have
hoped they'd developed theirskill set over that time. And so
if it's completely new field ofendeavour for a new principal,
that would actually cause me abit of concern because they
(15:28):
should have had some exposure tothat as they move through their
career. But ringing a mate isalways a good idea. That's what
lawyers call a network is whatpractitioners call ring a buddy.
Leanne (15:39):
Yeah, I would absolutely have to agree with Vaughan. It's
a little bit different inprimary sector. We don't always
go through the pathway of DP, APinto principalship, especially
in our rural schools. So beingable to ring up, you know, your
association or the principaldown the road is is really key
to getting the support that youneed. And you know, I'll
(16:00):
highlight here that behaviour isone of those things that
principals we find mostdifficult because you're dealing
with people with emotions. Soyou know, while the guideline
and I totally agree with you,Gretchen, the guideline is
really great, but when you're ina room and you've got emotions
flying left, right and centreand you know, especially if
you've got difficult parents whowho are finding every reason in
(16:23):
the book why their childshouldn't be, you know, held
accountable for their behaviourand all the blame is being put
on, on the school, a principalcan feel very much at risk. Yes,
it's their responsibility, butyou know, they should not ever
feel like they're alone in that.
Eleisha (16:39):
hmm hmm hmm
Leanne (16:40):
Whether it's talking through that with that the mate
down the road, but also withtheir board, making sure their
board's got their back becauseultimately if a child is
excluded, that's the board'sdecision, right, the principal
can put them through to theboard and that's really
indicating to that whānau thatthey have tried absolutely
(17:01):
everything that is available.And, you know, that's what I say
to new and principals.Is thatthe reason you'd end up in front
of an, um the board is becauseyou've tried absolutely
everything possible and you'vetold parents and they've been
part of that process up to thatstage, you know, it shouldn't be
an absolute surprise that theirchild is faced with this sort of
(17:25):
consequence. So yeah, whilstit's good to have the guideline
there, it's also good to havethat mate down the road.
Eleisha (17:32):
Gretchen hearing all this about difficult parents, I
really wondering what advice yougive in your sessions for new
tumuaki about dealing with withparents who, you know, perhaps
are surprised that their child'sbeing held accountable for
something?
Gretchen (17:48):
Yeah, well the session's probably about an hour
long these days. So, so I do gothrough quite a bit and what I
do categorise are parents into,which I think tumuaki have found
quite helpful, is your averagelydifficult parent who's just a
bit overanxious and overinvestedand such, and your very
(18:08):
difficult parent. And the verydifficult ones is probably what
I'm seeing more. They can take ahuge amount of time for a
principal, the reason. Thereason that I create that
distinction and it's obviouslynot scientific in the least, but
is your strategy for resolutionwith a very difficult parent who
perhaps has their own mentalhealth issues is vastly
(18:29):
different from all thestrategies that tumuaki know so
well in dealing with youraveragely difficult parent who's
just a bit overanxious and such,you give up on your strategy of
trying to meet with them andtrying to work toward resolution.
I've heard these folks beingcalled conflict entrepreneurs,
and it tends to be more in thatspace. So they are trying to
(18:52):
create more conflict rather thanresolve it. So I'm talking to
them about about those parentsin particular and sort of the
steps that are in place, it's IT,it's I mean, you can trespass,
there's communication protocolswhich know the Ministry worked
with a school a while ago andthey have turned that into quite
a useful template. So there's,there's various strategies, none
(19:15):
of which as I say areparticularly legal because, you
know, parents don't have a legalstatus as against in schools. I
mean, there's certainobligations, but as I say, I
think tumuaki have found thatcategorization quite helpful,
really, just to the way in whichthey're trying to manage it and
just making sure they're gettingsupport, because I've seen very,
very experienced tumuaki getclose to the edge of their
(19:38):
ability to cope with just oneextremely difficult parent. You
know, some simple things likenot playing email ping pong, but
that's probably a strategy you'duse for a lot of issues. But yes,
so just a, just the whole worldof of of practical tips really
is is probably what we've gotthrough my experience in just
dealing with difficult parents.But as I say, really noticing
(20:00):
that very difficult parentcategory increasing.
Leanne (20:03):
And I think I could just add to that what Gretchen's
talking about, that we oftenterm de-escalation. So it's not
about de-escalating behavioursof young people, but it's being
aware of needing to de-escalatesituations with parents.
Eleisha (20:18):
hmm.
Leanne (20:18):
That's become something that we are very well aware of.
And we know that if we have afew strategies that we work on
developing and adding more toour kete I guess, of of how we
deal with difficult situationsand behaviours of both children
and parents, we need many,because whilst we've got two
(20:39):
categories of parents, they comewith a whole heap of differences
in terms of the way that theyreact from verbal ab abuse to
unfortunately nowadays we'reseeing physical abuse of
principals too in thosesituations. So being aware of
de-escalation is very important.
Eleisha (20:56):
Hmm. Some great information there. Thank you. In
the next episode, we're going toget into the nitty gritty of
preventative measures tumuakican take around the behavior of
ākonga, behavior managementframeworks and the importance of
a consistent approach. Ka kiteano.
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