December 9, 2024 • 24 mins
As a tumuaki you'll be leading both teachers and support staff, and making sure they're treated fairly, feel supported, know about their entitlements and have opportunities to learn and grow, can help create a great work environment. In this episode, we talk about how you can support your staff and your obligations to them.
My guests are:
- Patrick Ikiua, Director of Professional Practice for Te Whakarōputanga Kaitiaki Kura o Aotearoa (New Zealand School Boards Association).
- Marama Stewart, Leadership Advisor, Māori - Ministry of Education
- Louise Green, Principal Support Officer, NZEI Te Riu Roa
This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education as part of Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals.
You can learn more about this topic by accessing Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals e-learning modules on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz
Show notes
Episode themes:
- Things that impact on the wellbeing of kaiako
- Importance of tumuaki focusing on what they can influence and control for staff as their leader and manager when it comes to staff well-being
- Ways to help kaiako feel more comfortable when you start as new tumuaki
- How new tumuaki can help make sure middle and senior leaders feel valued and confident in their roles
- Change management
- Leadership vs management
- Employment laws and being a good employer
- Employment agreements and what they mean
- How new tumuaki can find the agreements staff are employed under, and the entitlements, allowances etc that apply to them
- Professional learning and development (PLD)
- What NZEI can help with
Additional information
Understanding school employment https://www.educationalleaders.govt.nz/Managing-your-school/Guides-for-managing-your-school/Understanding-school-employment
NZEI https://www.nzeiteriuroa.org.nz
SPANZ https://www.spanz.school.nz
NZSBA https://www.tewhakaroputanga.org.nz/
SUE reports https://www.edpay.govt.nz/site/reports/sue-report.aspx
Resourcing: Operational funding and staffing entitlements https://www.education.govt.nz/school/funding-and-financials/resourcing/
Teaching Council https://teachingcouncil.nz
Questions
1:31 [Louise] What kinds of issues do you hear about from your kaiako members around their well-being?
2:17 [Mārama] When you were a teacher, what kinds of things did you notice impacted on your wellbeing?
3:07 [Mārama] What can tumuaki do to look after the well-being of their kaiako?
4:34 [Mārama] As a new tumuaki coming in to a school, how can you put kaiako at ease to help them feel less anxious about someone new starting?
6:06 [Mārama] How can a tumuaki make sure your leadership team functions well and that they feel valued and confident in their roles?
8:09 [Mārama] What would your advice be for new principals around introducing the idea of change and then making it happen?
11:42 [Patrick] Under which laws does a school board, and the tumuaki is part of that, have responsibilities to their staff?
12:39 [Patrick] What does it mean to be a good empl
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eleisha (00:10):
Kia ora and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new school principals inAotearoa New Zealand. I'm
Eleisha McNeill, thanks forbeing here today. As a tumuaki
you'll be leading both teachersand support staff, and making
sure they're treated fairly,feel supported, know about their
entitlements and haveopportunities to learn and grow,
can help create a great workenvironment. In this episode,
(00:33):
we're going to talk about howyou can support your staff and
your obligations to them. I'lllet my guests introduce
themselves.
Patrick (00:41):
Kia ora kotou, ko Patrick Ikiua toku ingoa,
kaiwhakah professional practice,Te
Whakarōputanga Kaitiaki Kura oAotearoa e te mahi. I'm Patrick
Ikiua, director of professionalpractice at the New Zealand
School Boards Association.
Louise (00:55):
Kia ora, ko Louise Green toku ingoa. I'm the executive
officer at NZEI Te Riu Roa andmy role focuses on supporting
principals tumuaki.
Mārama (01:05):
Kia ora kotou, nga mihi nui kia kotou. Ko Mārama
Stewart toku ingoa. I am aformer principal of 14 years
experience from a small U1school through to a larger U4
school. And currently I'mworking with the Ministry of
Education in the leadershipadvisory service. My
(01:26):
specialisation is for Māoritumuaki within mainstream
schools.
Eleisha (01:30):
Thank you, Louise. What kinds of issues do you hear
about from your kaiako membersaround their well-being?
Louise (01:37):
So I mainly hear from principals, but of course you
know the teachers as well. But Isuppose one of the biggest
things for people right now isaround access to resourcing that
they need to support theirlearners, and that seems to
cause people a lot of a lot ofstress and a lot of anxiety. And
(01:57):
staffing is a big issue at themoment. So if people are sick,
quite often teachers end uplooking after other people's
classes if they can't getrelievers and things like that.
So they all add to the normalalready big and complex job that
that teachers and tumuaki have.
Eleisha (02:17):
And Mārama, when you were a teacher, what kinds of
things did you notice impactedon your wellbeing?
Mārama (02:23):
Not leaving work at work, overworking, just feeling
like I had to be at school at6:30 a.m. to make all the pretty
stuff and just letting my jobconsume me. So it took me a
little while, even as aprincipal, to find a bit of a
work life balance.
Eleisha (02:39):
And how did you do that?
Mārama (02:41):
Um not having work emails on my phone, turning them
off, my do not disturb on workstuff at a set time and making
time for myself, and doingsomething every day that I can't
think about work, exercise orwhatever that makes you happy.
Yeah, I think that's a veryimportant lesson to learn. As a
teacher and as a beginningprincipal, you have to turn off
(03:04):
every single day.
Eleisha (03:06):
And outside of suggesting to your staff that
they they do that kind of thing,what other kinds of things can
tumuaki do to look after thewell-being of their kaiako?
Mārama (03:15):
So when I speak to beginning principals looking at
it through that lens, I usuallytalk to them about their sphere
of influence. So, you know,teachers are humans and they've
got a lot going on both withinschool and without in their
personal lives. And sometimessome of our beginning principals
get really bogged down on someof the stuff they can't control.
(03:37):
So I try and talk about puttingyour effort into what you can
control. You can certainly bevery supportive of them and
listen and making thoseconnections exactly how you
would with your children in yourclass, actually. I treat my
staff as with the same aroha andcare as I would with the kids in
my class, but also understandingthat while I can be there for my
(03:59):
staff and listen around issuesthey have in their personal life,
I have to focus my efforts onthe things that I have an
influence on as their leader andtheir manager. So making sure
that everything within school, Iexpect of them at school,
they're not guessing. It's very,very clear guidance, we're not
(04:21):
using any presumptions. So whenI'm working with my staff, you
know, I'm very predictable andthey know what they expect of me
and what the procedures andguidelines within the school are
as we work together.
Eleisha (04:33):
And as a new tumuaki coming in to a school, how can
you put kaiako at ease to helpthem feel less anxious about
someone new starting?
Mārama (04:45):
I would start off as to remove any kind of presumption
from work when you're cominginto a new environment, even if
you're starting in a newposition at a school, don't
presume that everyone knowsexactly how things are run. It's
a very simple thing to do as thebeginning principal to do a like
a systems review. How do wecommunicate with each other?
(05:07):
What are the processes forcommunicating with parents?
Where are the policies andprocedures? Just making sure
every single part of thosesystems that really we should
know, but don't presume that youknow, are correct. And, you know
as well, what are theexpectations around being at
school? How do we greet ourchildren, get right down into
(05:30):
the nitty gritty, and if you doit together, as a staff exercise
and you remove all thosepresumptions, then you really
set the tamariki and the kaiakoup for success.
Louise (05:42):
I'd just like to add there, it's also important to
listen, because quite often whenyou're new into a role, you know
you're checking yourpresumptions and all of that
kind of thing, but people havegot things to say, things that
have worked and things thathaven't worked. And so it's
equally important to listen andto take on what you hear before
(06:03):
progressing what it is that youmight want to do.
Eleisha (06:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so a school's functioning isis also influenced by by a
school's middle and seniorleaders. How can a tumuaki make
sure your leadership teamfunctions well and that they
feel valued and confident intheir roles, Mārama?
Mārama (06:23):
Again, it's it's about removing all those presumptions,
who's, who is in your team, whatis the current job description,
what are their roles, what dothey believe their roles are,
and what do you believe the roleshould be? And where you can
come together in thatcommunication, spending a lot of
time to make sure you have areally shared vision and school
(06:46):
direction as a leadership team,whic can be slightly different
to the one that you have as awhole school. You've really got
to have that shared directiontogether to work as a team and
being confident that you candelegate whatever you need to
delegate to to your team membersand rely on them. Nobody needs a
(07:08):
micromanager checking over theirshoulders, but also it's such a
powerful thing to have a greatDP on your side to help you get
through all that kind of stuff.Soyeah, I think spend a lot of
time getting to know your team,their values, what their
ambitions are and finding a way.It takes time. But if you keep
(07:31):
those conversations going, youcan find a way together.
Louise (07:34):
Could I just add there too that about a third of our
schools don't have middlemanagement because they're in a
smaller, smaller school. So thetumuaki has huge
responsibilities, but same typeof thing. Keeping the
communication open with the restof your team, with your board
and your community as well,because quite often they can
(07:55):
support you, and they're used tosupporting you in smaller
schools, but keeping that, youknow, being clear about your
communication, listening and youknow, when things are getting
getting tough, sharing that.
Eleisha (08:09):
Definitely. And we've touched on this a little bit
before, but it's pretty commonfor new tumuaki when they start
at a school to have ideas aboutthings that could change. So,
Mārama, what would your advicebe for new principals around
introducing the idea of changeand then making it happen?
Mārama (08:28):
Yeah, it can be really tricky. And there's lots of
really good models that you canlook up around change management
that can be really helpful. Buta hugely important part of any
change process is actually thepause, just to wait and see for
a little bit, because sometimesthere's a reason that we may not
know yet until we've had thoseconversations with our staff.
(08:52):
Also communicate with staff that,actually let them know right
from the beginning changes aregoing to happen, but we're just
going to wait for a bit andwe're just going to see, we're
not just going to change thingsfor the sake of changing things.
Also, not just going to keepthings for the sake of keeping
them. But if you've got someideas that you would like to
share with me, that this is areally important thing that
(09:13):
needs to stay or needs to change,then then let's start those
conversations really early. It'salso I think it's super
important that beginningprincipals really understand the
difference between leadershipand management.
Eleisha (09:27):
Hmm.
Mārama (09:27):
They are very, very different. They're the two sides
of the same coin. But when youare working through management,
you are looking at stability,you're looking at predictability.
That's probably easier to makechanges there because it's very
clear cut and you can use thedata there. Leadership is
(09:49):
actually more about challengingthe status quo, questioning why
we do things, looking to thefuture and being a bit
disruptive in your leadershipand that's where a lot more
relations with your staff,getting them to understand your
vision and you understandingtheirs, and coming together it
(10:09):
is, that's a much longer process.So think about the changes you
want to make, think are they amanagement thing or are they a
leadership thing. Managementthings, pretty easy, leadership
stuff, you're going to have toget everybody or as many people
as you can on board and movingtogether towards that shared
direction.
Eleisha (10:26):
Definitely.
Louise (10:27):
Sometimes in that space when you're coming into a new
school, you know you've beenemployed for a purpose and the
board's perhaps shared someideas with you at that point in
time. I agree with Mārama. Takethat time, but also make
professional decisions andprofessional judgements. You're
the tumuaki, you're the leaderof the professional pieces. And
(10:49):
so it does take time to find outwhy the situation might be what
it is and what needs to happento actually to, to remedy the
situation, taking, taking peoplealong with you. Easy examples of,
of immediate change - sometimesyou see something glaringly in
the health and safety area
Eleisha (11:07):
Hmm.
Louise (11:07):
that you can make a change about straight away. And
everybody's really pleased withthat type of thing. But anything
to do with, you know,professional learning and growth
and curriculum and things likethat do take that time to to
find out what's going on. Andsometimes, like my experience
has been in the past wherethere's an expectation that
(11:27):
people do things, but they'vebeen starved of the professional
learning that would support themto do that. So it's a package
that you're working on. You'relooking also at how are you
going to support your staff togrow in the area that you want
that change or need that change.
Eleisha (11:42):
Definitely. Patrick bringing you in now, Louise
mentioned the school board there.So under which laws does a
school board, an the tumuaki ispart of that, have
responsibilities to their staff?
Patrick (11:54):
Ah, the employment legislation for school boards is
actually quite complex. Youstart off with the Employment
Relations Act of 2000, whichtalks about, you know, natural
justice, transparency, being agood employer. You have specific
provisions in the Education andTraining Act, which relate to
the good employer obligations ofthe board - the board is the
(12:16):
employer of record for all staffin the school. Then you have the
Public Service Act, which talksabout the responsibilities of
Crown entities and the board isa Crown entity, and then you
have the Crown Entities Act. Sothose are the specific pieces of
legislation that create a higherthreshold of obligation on
boards than within a privatesector setting.
Eleisha (12:38):
You talked a lot about being a good employer there.
What does that actually mean?
Patrick (12:42):
Yeah, yeah. The simple answer is treat others as you'd
like to be treated yourself.
Eleisha (12:48):
Mm
Patrick (12:48):
So it's comprised of legal obligations. There are
four specific statutes, but alsocomply with your policies and
procedures. They're there for apurpose, they're there to
provide a guide, they're thereto provide transparency so
people have an understanding ofwhere they stand should there be
a complaint or process of review.There is act in good faith at
all times, and good faith isabout being constructive in your
(13:10):
conversations, being open andbeing transparent about the
process and the decisions thatyou're needing to make. And then
natural justice. Natural justiceis a legal term,
Eleisha (13:20):
hmm.
Patrick (13:20):
but it is once again to act fairly, to be open. People
have rights and you have torespect those rights. They would
need to know what is the natureof the complaint. They need to
understand who is making thatcomplaint. For us anonymous
complaints don't hold water. Theperson who it's been made
against has to be able toidentify who it was made by and
where did it come from so theycan respond sensibly to it.
Eleisha (13:43):
Hmm.
Patrick (13:44):
And it's one of the hardest things, especially for
new leaders, is to have thatconversation, the initial
conversation, to try to nipthings in the bud before
positions become polarised andentrenched. So, you know, the
the collective agreement isspecific about resolving matters
at the lowest level possible.
Eleisha (14:01):
You mentioned the collective agreement there.
Patrick (14:03):
Yes
Eleisha (14:04):
There are a number of different employment agreements.
What kinds of employmentagreements can apply to kaiako
and kaimahi?
Patrick (14:12):
The collective agreements of course set the
terms and conditions ofemployment.
Eleisha (14:15):
Mm
Patrick (14:16):
And under those collective agreements, there are
different employmentrelationships that can arise. So
the collective agreements like Isaid they set the terms and
conditions. You should know whatthe entitlements and
responsibilities each of yourstaff have under those
collectives. The other part isthe nature of their employment.
Have I got this person in theright employment agreement
(14:37):
because if you get it wrong,that can create a whole series
of issues around your ongoingfunding and their rights as well.
The ones that we and the unionshave been concerned about is the
overuse of fixed term employmentagreements, especially for
kaimahi, and it became a defaultposition that schools would roll
over a fixed term employee,especially a support staff
(14:59):
member, because it was linked tofunding or it was linked to what
they thought was a child support,or student roll numbers, which
they felt weren't certain.Unfortunately, none of those are
good reasons to put a person ona fixed term employment
agreement. Our view is, and thishas developed or evolved, our
view now is that if you'relooking at employment and you're
(15:20):
wanting to make it a fixed term,the first question you should
ask about is why shouldn't thisperson be permanent?
Eleisha (15:26):
hmm.
Patrick (15:26):
And we have a whole series of resources that enable
you to ask the right questionsand then land hopefully at the
right decision as to whetherthis is truly a fixed term
position or whether it'spermanent. But that's the bit
mainly the key one.
Eleisha (15:40):
Louise, did you have anything to add?
Louise (15:43):
Yes, thank you. One of the things as a new tumauki, you
often inherit what's been thereand um and so quite often you
can find yourself in a situationnot of your own making and
that's, that can be really scaryand and people worry about that.
So that's the time to reach outto and either, SBA School Boards
(16:05):
Association or NZEI, dependingon whether you're the kaiako or
the or the tumuaki, and oneschool that I went to, I
remember going in and findingthat there were no employment
letters for people. And it'slike, where do you start. Well
that's exactly where you canreach out for support, and for
principals who are members ofNZEI, for example, they can also
(16:26):
ring a principal helpline andtalk to their principal support
officer who can help them in amore pastoral way so that they
don't feel that they're aloneand and this is all too big.So
reach out for help, becausequite often you do inherit
things that are not of your ownmaking. Yeah.
Patrick (16:46):
We have encouraged boards that are looking to
recruit or to appoint a newtumuaki to go through a series
of audits so they could almostgive a warrant of fitness about
um where the school is, you knowthat they say the incoming
principal can have a health andsafety audit, can have a
WorkSafe audit done, can havetheir employment personnel
(17:07):
records, audits done. And sothey have a starting place. It's
a big task, well it is a hugetask
Eleisha (17:14):
Definitely. And as a new tumuaki coming in, I mean,
you know, you're likely to havebeen a teacher, had previous
roles in a school, so you'llhave some sense of, you know,
those entitlements andallowances and things that you
mentioned Patrick. But Mārama,how can a new tumuaki going in,
how can they find out, you know,what agreements are covering the
(17:35):
staff in their school?
Mārama (17:37):
Um so I currently belong to the leadership
advisory service, it's the umexperienced leading principals,
we have 16 of us across thecountry and we can come in and
work with anyone really whowants to audit anything or set
you in the right direction. WhatI would do as a leadership
advisor is I would advise you tohave a look at your staffing
(17:59):
usage expenditure report.Everyone that you pay is listed
on that report and it also hasthe, either the fixed term
agreement or the collectiveagreement that they are
currently employed under. So youcan make a pretty simple
spreadsheet on that. It's a bitof hard yards when you first
start out, you're going to haveto read those agreements and get
(18:23):
some support from NZEI or fromus or from NZSBA around what
some of the terms are. They'reall pretty easy to read. It's
just they're just long winded,but they are meant to be very,
very clear so that there are noconfusions. Resourcing is also
really good, if you email theresourcing helpline,
(18:44):
resourcing@education. govt. nzif you have any specific
questions around a staff memberor a entitlement or an allowance
that you find inside any of theagreements, they'll be able to
tell you where to apply,how toapply, and who is entitled to
those benefits. As well as theprincipal support officer from
(19:08):
NZEI, that they're very good aswell. They can set you on the
right path when it comes toentitlements very quickly. But
yeah, honestly, within theMinistry ask sooner rather than
wonder. They'll put you incontact with us as a service,
they'll put you in contact withwhoever needs to, get to know
(19:29):
who your manager of integratedservices are, they're the
managers that manage your areaand they'll put you in contact
with us really quickly. But itis important that you understand
who's employed, how they'reemployed and what they have very,
very quickly
Eleisha (19:47):
In terms of PLD, are there specific requirements and
responsibilities around PLD forfor the staff for your schools.
Mārama (19:56):
Yes. That sits within your professional
responsibilities as an employerwithin the agreements. It also
sits within the professionalteaching standards held under
the Teaching Council. We need tobe enabling our teachers to be
the best that they can be inorder to serve your community
and and and your children.Specifically, this is found
(20:18):
under the professional learningstandard, but pretty much all of
the dimensions talk about somelevel of upskilling you as a
kaiako. I'm still registered.Evenprincipals need to be keeping
up with the play with the PLDand the latest learning around
learning and achievement. Sothat would be probably the first
(20:40):
place I would look is theTeachers' Council and there are,
there is a lot of resourcing andhelp on the Teachers' Council
website that you can also use tohelp shape PLD and PLGs.
Louise (20:52):
PLD for teachers is really, really important and
quite often the induction andmentoring of beginning
principals can cause someanxiety for people, especially
in smaller schools. So it'sreally worth reaching out about
those, about those types ofthings. And also to remember the
PLD for kaimahi. So you know, inthe teacher aide space, support
(21:16):
staff space that's really, andyour caretaker space that's
really, really important as wellnot just to focus on on your
teachers.
Eleisha (21:25):
Fantastic. And Louise, NZEI represents more than 50,
000 tumuaki, kaiako and kaimahiaround the country. What can
they help new principals with?
Louise (21:38):
So NZEI as far as tumuaki is concerned, we do have
a principal support officer.We've got, we haven't got as
many as the Ministry have gotthroughout the country, but
we've got some key people therethat can be reached out to and
can provide professionalpastoral and industrial support
(21:59):
depending on what people need atthe time. They are a good place
to go because they're not linkedto anybody. They're not linked
to your employer or the Ministryor whatever. And sometimes
people don't know what theydon't know, so they're a little
bit unsure of who to ask first.
Eleisha (22:13):
Hmm
Louise (22:14):
So when they ring the principal support officer, we
can direct them to the peoplethat they sometimes don't even
know about that are there tohelp. We also have an 0508
Principal helpline and thatoperates from 830 to 5 every
weekday and it's got somebodyvery experienced on the end of
(22:36):
that line that can answer anyquestions about whether it's
collectives or anything actuallylike they are pretty skilled and
they can also link people totheir principal support officer
if something more than answeringthe question is required. And
NZEI also has a website forprincipals and we've got a
(22:57):
principals kit there to support,and other resources. So yeah,
it's a good it's a good place tostart, especially if you're not
sure what it is you need or ifyou have got something serious
that's come across your deskabout your own employment.
Eleisha (23:14):
And if I can give you a sentence each, one sentence -
good luck - Advice for lookingafter kaiako and kaimahi in your
school. What would your piece ofadvice be, Patrick?
Patrick (23:26):
From a board perspective is understand your
obligations as a good employerand support your principal to
fulfil those.
Eleisha (23:33):
Mārama.
Mārama (23:35):
Consult, consult all the time, but understand that
consult does not necessarilymean consent.
Eleisha (23:42):
Excellent. Louise.
Louise (23:44):
Be available and listen and as Mārama said, it doesn't
it doesn't mean that you'regoing to agree. But
relationships are key and peopleneed to feel that they're valued
and what they've got to say andoffer is valued. So be be
available, be present and listen.
Eleisha (24:02):
Fantastic. Patrick, Louise and Mārama are going to
stay with me for the nextepisode where we're going to
talk about managing complaintsand employment issues. Mā
Kia ora and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new school principals inAotearoa New Zealand. I'm
Eleisha McNeill, thanks forbeing here today. As a tumuaki
you'll be leading both teachersand support staff, and making
sure they're treated fairly,feel supported, know about their
entitlements and haveopportunities to learn and grow,
can help create a great workenvironment. In this episode,
(00:33):
we're going to talk about howyou can support your staff and
your obligations to them. I'lllet my guests introduce
themselves.
Patrick (00:41):
Kia ora kotou, ko Patrick Ikiua toku ingoa,
kaiwhakah professional practice,Te
Whakarōputanga Kaitiaki Kura oAotearoa e te mahi. I'm Patrick
Ikiua, director of professionalpractice at the New Zealand
School Boards Association.
Louise (00:55):
Kia ora, ko Louise Green toku ingoa. I'm the executive
officer at NZEI Te Riu Roa andmy role focuses on supporting
principals tumuaki.
Mārama (01:05):
Kia ora kotou, nga mihi nui kia kotou. Ko Mārama
Stewart toku ingoa. I am aformer principal of 14 years
experience from a small U1school through to a larger U4
school. And currently I'mworking with the Ministry of
Education in the leadershipadvisory service. My
(01:26):
specialisation is for Māoritumuaki within mainstream
schools.
Eleisha (01:30):
Thank you, Louise. What kinds of issues do you hear
about from your kaiako membersaround their well-being?
Louise (01:37):
So I mainly hear from principals, but of course you
know the teachers as well. But Isuppose one of the biggest
things for people right now isaround access to resourcing that
they need to support theirlearners, and that seems to
cause people a lot of a lot ofstress and a lot of anxiety. And
(01:57):
staffing is a big issue at themoment. So if people are sick,
quite often teachers end uplooking after other people's
classes if they can't getrelievers and things like that.
So they all add to the normalalready big and complex job that
that teachers and tumuaki have.
Eleisha (02:17):
And Mārama, when you were a teacher, what kinds of
things did you notice impactedon your wellbeing?
Mārama (02:23):
Not leaving work at work, overworking, just feeling
like I had to be at school at6:30 a.m. to make all the pretty
stuff and just letting my jobconsume me. So it took me a
little while, even as aprincipal, to find a bit of a
work life balance.
Eleisha (02:39):
And how did you do that?
Mārama (02:41):
Um not having work emails on my phone, turning them
off, my do not disturb on workstuff at a set time and making
time for myself, and doingsomething every day that I can't
think about work, exercise orwhatever that makes you happy.
Yeah, I think that's a veryimportant lesson to learn. As a
teacher and as a beginningprincipal, you have to turn off
(03:04):
every single day.
Eleisha (03:06):
And outside of suggesting to your staff that
they they do that kind of thing,what other kinds of things can
tumuaki do to look after thewell-being of their kaiako?
Mārama (03:15):
So when I speak to beginning principals looking at
it through that lens, I usuallytalk to them about their sphere
of influence. So, you know,teachers are humans and they've
got a lot going on both withinschool and without in their
personal lives. And sometimessome of our beginning principals
get really bogged down on someof the stuff they can't control.
(03:37):
So I try and talk about puttingyour effort into what you can
control. You can certainly bevery supportive of them and
listen and making thoseconnections exactly how you
would with your children in yourclass, actually. I treat my
staff as with the same aroha andcare as I would with the kids in
my class, but also understandingthat while I can be there for my
(03:59):
staff and listen around issuesthey have in their personal life,
I have to focus my efforts onthe things that I have an
influence on as their leader andtheir manager. So making sure
that everything within school, Iexpect of them at school,
they're not guessing. It's very,very clear guidance, we're not
(04:21):
using any presumptions. So whenI'm working with my staff, you
know, I'm very predictable andthey know what they expect of me
and what the procedures andguidelines within the school are
as we work together.
Eleisha (04:33):
And as a new tumuaki coming in to a school, how can
you put kaiako at ease to helpthem feel less anxious about
someone new starting?
Mārama (04:45):
I would start off as to remove any kind of presumption
from work when you're cominginto a new environment, even if
you're starting in a newposition at a school, don't
presume that everyone knowsexactly how things are run. It's
a very simple thing to do as thebeginning principal to do a like
a systems review. How do wecommunicate with each other?
(05:07):
What are the processes forcommunicating with parents?
Where are the policies andprocedures? Just making sure
every single part of thosesystems that really we should
know, but don't presume that youknow, are correct. And, you know
as well, what are theexpectations around being at
school? How do we greet ourchildren, get right down into
(05:30):
the nitty gritty, and if you doit together, as a staff exercise
and you remove all thosepresumptions, then you really
set the tamariki and the kaiakoup for success.
Louise (05:42):
I'd just like to add there, it's also important to
listen, because quite often whenyou're new into a role, you know
you're checking yourpresumptions and all of that
kind of thing, but people havegot things to say, things that
have worked and things thathaven't worked. And so it's
equally important to listen andto take on what you hear before
(06:03):
progressing what it is that youmight want to do.
Eleisha (06:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so a school's functioning isis also influenced by by a
school's middle and seniorleaders. How can a tumuaki make
sure your leadership teamfunctions well and that they
feel valued and confident intheir roles, Mārama?
Mārama (06:23):
Again, it's it's about removing all those presumptions,
who's, who is in your team, whatis the current job description,
what are their roles, what dothey believe their roles are,
and what do you believe the roleshould be? And where you can
come together in thatcommunication, spending a lot of
time to make sure you have areally shared vision and school
(06:46):
direction as a leadership team,whic can be slightly different
to the one that you have as awhole school. You've really got
to have that shared directiontogether to work as a team and
being confident that you candelegate whatever you need to
delegate to to your team membersand rely on them. Nobody needs a
(07:08):
micromanager checking over theirshoulders, but also it's such a
powerful thing to have a greatDP on your side to help you get
through all that kind of stuff.Soyeah, I think spend a lot of
time getting to know your team,their values, what their
ambitions are and finding a way.It takes time. But if you keep
(07:31):
those conversations going, youcan find a way together.
Louise (07:34):
Could I just add there too that about a third of our
schools don't have middlemanagement because they're in a
smaller, smaller school. So thetumuaki has huge
responsibilities, but same typeof thing. Keeping the
communication open with the restof your team, with your board
and your community as well,because quite often they can
(07:55):
support you, and they're used tosupporting you in smaller
schools, but keeping that, youknow, being clear about your
communication, listening and youknow, when things are getting
getting tough, sharing that.
Eleisha (08:09):
Definitely. And we've touched on this a little bit
before, but it's pretty commonfor new tumuaki when they start
at a school to have ideas aboutthings that could change. So,
Mārama, what would your advicebe for new principals around
introducing the idea of changeand then making it happen?
Mārama (08:28):
Yeah, it can be really tricky. And there's lots of
really good models that you canlook up around change management
that can be really helpful. Buta hugely important part of any
change process is actually thepause, just to wait and see for
a little bit, because sometimesthere's a reason that we may not
know yet until we've had thoseconversations with our staff.
(08:52):
Also communicate with staff that,actually let them know right
from the beginning changes aregoing to happen, but we're just
going to wait for a bit andwe're just going to see, we're
not just going to change thingsfor the sake of changing things.
Also, not just going to keepthings for the sake of keeping
them. But if you've got someideas that you would like to
share with me, that this is areally important thing that
(09:13):
needs to stay or needs to change,then then let's start those
conversations really early. It'salso I think it's super
important that beginningprincipals really understand the
difference between leadershipand management.
Eleisha (09:27):
Hmm.
Mārama (09:27):
They are very, very different. They're the two sides
of the same coin. But when youare working through management,
you are looking at stability,you're looking at predictability.
That's probably easier to makechanges there because it's very
clear cut and you can use thedata there. Leadership is
(09:49):
actually more about challengingthe status quo, questioning why
we do things, looking to thefuture and being a bit
disruptive in your leadershipand that's where a lot more
relations with your staff,getting them to understand your
vision and you understandingtheirs, and coming together it
(10:09):
is, that's a much longer process.So think about the changes you
want to make, think are they amanagement thing or are they a
leadership thing. Managementthings, pretty easy, leadership
stuff, you're going to have toget everybody or as many people
as you can on board and movingtogether towards that shared
direction.
Eleisha (10:26):
Definitely.
Louise (10:27):
Sometimes in that space when you're coming into a new
school, you know you've beenemployed for a purpose and the
board's perhaps shared someideas with you at that point in
time. I agree with Mārama. Takethat time, but also make
professional decisions andprofessional judgements. You're
the tumuaki, you're the leaderof the professional pieces. And
(10:49):
so it does take time to find outwhy the situation might be what
it is and what needs to happento actually to, to remedy the
situation, taking, taking peoplealong with you. Easy examples of,
of immediate change - sometimesyou see something glaringly in
the health and safety area
Eleisha (11:07):
Hmm.
Louise (11:07):
that you can make a change about straight away. And
everybody's really pleased withthat type of thing. But anything
to do with, you know,professional learning and growth
and curriculum and things likethat do take that time to to
find out what's going on. Andsometimes, like my experience
has been in the past wherethere's an expectation that
(11:27):
people do things, but they'vebeen starved of the professional
learning that would support themto do that. So it's a package
that you're working on. You'relooking also at how are you
going to support your staff togrow in the area that you want
that change or need that change.
Eleisha (11:42):
Definitely. Patrick bringing you in now, Louise
mentioned the school board there.So under which laws does a
school board, an the tumuaki ispart of that, have
responsibilities to their staff?
Patrick (11:54):
Ah, the employment legislation for school boards is
actually quite complex. Youstart off with the Employment
Relations Act of 2000, whichtalks about, you know, natural
justice, transparency, being agood employer. You have specific
provisions in the Education andTraining Act, which relate to
the good employer obligations ofthe board - the board is the
(12:16):
employer of record for all staffin the school. Then you have the
Public Service Act, which talksabout the responsibilities of
Crown entities and the board isa Crown entity, and then you
have the Crown Entities Act. Sothose are the specific pieces of
legislation that create a higherthreshold of obligation on
boards than within a privatesector setting.
Eleisha (12:38):
You talked a lot about being a good employer there.
What does that actually mean?
Patrick (12:42):
Yeah, yeah. The simple answer is treat others as you'd
like to be treated yourself.
Eleisha (12:48):
Mm
Patrick (12:48):
So it's comprised of legal obligations. There are
four specific statutes, but alsocomply with your policies and
procedures. They're there for apurpose, they're there to
provide a guide, they're thereto provide transparency so
people have an understanding ofwhere they stand should there be
a complaint or process of review.There is act in good faith at
all times, and good faith isabout being constructive in your
(13:10):
conversations, being open andbeing transparent about the
process and the decisions thatyou're needing to make. And then
natural justice. Natural justiceis a legal term,
Eleisha (13:20):
hmm.
Patrick (13:20):
but it is once again to act fairly, to be open. People
have rights and you have torespect those rights. They would
need to know what is the natureof the complaint. They need to
understand who is making thatcomplaint. For us anonymous
complaints don't hold water. Theperson who it's been made
against has to be able toidentify who it was made by and
where did it come from so theycan respond sensibly to it.
Eleisha (13:43):
Hmm.
Patrick (13:44):
And it's one of the hardest things, especially for
new leaders, is to have thatconversation, the initial
conversation, to try to nipthings in the bud before
positions become polarised andentrenched. So, you know, the
the collective agreement isspecific about resolving matters
at the lowest level possible.
Eleisha (14:01):
You mentioned the collective agreement there.
Patrick (14:03):
Yes
Eleisha (14:04):
There are a number of different employment agreements.
What kinds of employmentagreements can apply to kaiako
and kaimahi?
Patrick (14:12):
The collective agreements of course set the
terms and conditions ofemployment.
Eleisha (14:15):
Mm
Patrick (14:16):
And under those collective agreements, there are
different employmentrelationships that can arise. So
the collective agreements like Isaid they set the terms and
conditions. You should know whatthe entitlements and
responsibilities each of yourstaff have under those
collectives. The other part isthe nature of their employment.
Have I got this person in theright employment agreement
(14:37):
because if you get it wrong,that can create a whole series
of issues around your ongoingfunding and their rights as well.
The ones that we and the unionshave been concerned about is the
overuse of fixed term employmentagreements, especially for
kaimahi, and it became a defaultposition that schools would roll
over a fixed term employee,especially a support staff
(14:59):
member, because it was linked tofunding or it was linked to what
they thought was a child support,or student roll numbers, which
they felt weren't certain.Unfortunately, none of those are
good reasons to put a person ona fixed term employment
agreement. Our view is, and thishas developed or evolved, our
view now is that if you'relooking at employment and you're
(15:20):
wanting to make it a fixed term,the first question you should
ask about is why shouldn't thisperson be permanent?
Eleisha (15:26):
hmm.
Patrick (15:26):
And we have a whole series of resources that enable
you to ask the right questionsand then land hopefully at the
right decision as to whetherthis is truly a fixed term
position or whether it'spermanent. But that's the bit
mainly the key one.
Eleisha (15:40):
Louise, did you have anything to add?
Louise (15:43):
Yes, thank you. One of the things as a new tumauki, you
often inherit what's been thereand um and so quite often you
can find yourself in a situationnot of your own making and
that's, that can be really scaryand and people worry about that.
So that's the time to reach outto and either, SBA School Boards
(16:05):
Association or NZEI, dependingon whether you're the kaiako or
the or the tumuaki, and oneschool that I went to, I
remember going in and findingthat there were no employment
letters for people. And it'slike, where do you start. Well
that's exactly where you canreach out for support, and for
principals who are members ofNZEI, for example, they can also
(16:26):
ring a principal helpline andtalk to their principal support
officer who can help them in amore pastoral way so that they
don't feel that they're aloneand and this is all too big.So
reach out for help, becausequite often you do inherit
things that are not of your ownmaking. Yeah.
Patrick (16:46):
We have encouraged boards that are looking to
recruit or to appoint a newtumuaki to go through a series
of audits so they could almostgive a warrant of fitness about
um where the school is, you knowthat they say the incoming
principal can have a health andsafety audit, can have a
WorkSafe audit done, can havetheir employment personnel
(17:07):
records, audits done. And sothey have a starting place. It's
a big task, well it is a hugetask
Eleisha (17:14):
Definitely. And as a new tumuaki coming in, I mean,
you know, you're likely to havebeen a teacher, had previous
roles in a school, so you'llhave some sense of, you know,
those entitlements andallowances and things that you
mentioned Patrick. But Mārama,how can a new tumuaki going in,
how can they find out, you know,what agreements are covering the
(17:35):
staff in their school?
Mārama (17:37):
Um so I currently belong to the leadership
advisory service, it's the umexperienced leading principals,
we have 16 of us across thecountry and we can come in and
work with anyone really whowants to audit anything or set
you in the right direction. WhatI would do as a leadership
advisor is I would advise you tohave a look at your staffing
(17:59):
usage expenditure report.Everyone that you pay is listed
on that report and it also hasthe, either the fixed term
agreement or the collectiveagreement that they are
currently employed under. So youcan make a pretty simple
spreadsheet on that. It's a bitof hard yards when you first
start out, you're going to haveto read those agreements and get
(18:23):
some support from NZEI or fromus or from NZSBA around what
some of the terms are. They'reall pretty easy to read. It's
just they're just long winded,but they are meant to be very,
very clear so that there are noconfusions. Resourcing is also
really good, if you email theresourcing helpline,
(18:44):
resourcing@education. govt. nzif you have any specific
questions around a staff memberor a entitlement or an allowance
that you find inside any of theagreements, they'll be able to
tell you where to apply,how toapply, and who is entitled to
those benefits. As well as theprincipal support officer from
(19:08):
NZEI, that they're very good aswell. They can set you on the
right path when it comes toentitlements very quickly. But
yeah, honestly, within theMinistry ask sooner rather than
wonder. They'll put you incontact with us as a service,
they'll put you in contact withwhoever needs to, get to know
(19:29):
who your manager of integratedservices are, they're the
managers that manage your areaand they'll put you in contact
with us really quickly. But itis important that you understand
who's employed, how they'reemployed and what they have very,
very quickly
Eleisha (19:47):
In terms of PLD, are there specific requirements and
responsibilities around PLD forfor the staff for your schools.
Mārama (19:56):
Yes. That sits within your professional
responsibilities as an employerwithin the agreements. It also
sits within the professionalteaching standards held under
the Teaching Council. We need tobe enabling our teachers to be
the best that they can be inorder to serve your community
and and and your children.Specifically, this is found
(20:18):
under the professional learningstandard, but pretty much all of
the dimensions talk about somelevel of upskilling you as a
kaiako. I'm still registered.Evenprincipals need to be keeping
up with the play with the PLDand the latest learning around
learning and achievement. Sothat would be probably the first
(20:40):
place I would look is theTeachers' Council and there are,
there is a lot of resourcing andhelp on the Teachers' Council
website that you can also use tohelp shape PLD and PLGs.
Louise (20:52):
PLD for teachers is really, really important and
quite often the induction andmentoring of beginning
principals can cause someanxiety for people, especially
in smaller schools. So it'sreally worth reaching out about
those, about those types ofthings. And also to remember the
PLD for kaimahi. So you know, inthe teacher aide space, support
(21:16):
staff space that's really, andyour caretaker space that's
really, really important as wellnot just to focus on on your
teachers.
Eleisha (21:25):
Fantastic. And Louise, NZEI represents more than 50,
000 tumuaki, kaiako and kaimahiaround the country. What can
they help new principals with?
Louise (21:38):
So NZEI as far as tumuaki is concerned, we do have
a principal support officer.We've got, we haven't got as
many as the Ministry have gotthroughout the country, but
we've got some key people therethat can be reached out to and
can provide professionalpastoral and industrial support
(21:59):
depending on what people need atthe time. They are a good place
to go because they're not linkedto anybody. They're not linked
to your employer or the Ministryor whatever. And sometimes
people don't know what theydon't know, so they're a little
bit unsure of who to ask first.
Eleisha (22:13):
Hmm
Louise (22:14):
So when they ring the principal support officer, we
can direct them to the peoplethat they sometimes don't even
know about that are there tohelp. We also have an 0508
Principal helpline and thatoperates from 830 to 5 every
weekday and it's got somebodyvery experienced on the end of
(22:36):
that line that can answer anyquestions about whether it's
collectives or anything actuallylike they are pretty skilled and
they can also link people totheir principal support officer
if something more than answeringthe question is required. And
NZEI also has a website forprincipals and we've got a
(22:57):
principals kit there to support,and other resources. So yeah,
it's a good it's a good place tostart, especially if you're not
sure what it is you need or ifyou have got something serious
that's come across your deskabout your own employment.
Eleisha (23:14):
And if I can give you a sentence each, one sentence -
good luck - Advice for lookingafter kaiako and kaimahi in your
school. What would your piece ofadvice be, Patrick?
Patrick (23:26):
From a board perspective is understand your
obligations as a good employerand support your principal to
fulfil those.
Eleisha (23:33):
Mārama.
Mārama (23:35):
Consult, consult all the time, but understand that
consult does not necessarilymean consent.
Eleisha (23:42):
Excellent. Louise.
Louise (23:44):
Be available and listen and as Mārama said, it doesn't
it doesn't mean that you'regoing to agree. But
relationships are key and peopleneed to feel that they're valued
and what they've got to say andoffer is valued. So be be
available, be present and listen.
Eleisha (24:02):
Fantastic. Patrick, Louise and Mārama are going to
stay with me for the nextepisode where we're going to
talk about managing complaintsand employment issues. Mā
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