January 27, 2025 • 42 mins
The principal role can be both demanding and complex. It requires a lot of managerial and administrative tasks, you're the professional leader of the school and you have responsibility for and oversight of others, and your workload may feel overwhelming at first. It's absolutely essential that you take time to look after yourself.
If this episode raises concerns for your own health, please talk to someone you trust or see your doctor. If you need to speak to someone now, contact:
- 1737, Need to talk? Free call or text 1737 to talk to a trained counsellor.
- Anxiety New Zealand 0800 ANXIETY (0800 269 4389)
- Depression.org.nz 0800 111 757 or text 4202
- Lifeline 0800 543 354
- Rural Support Trust 0800 787 254
- Alcohol and drug helpline 0800 787 797
- If it is an emergency, call 111.
My guests are:
- Mārama Stewart, former tumuaki and leadership advisor for the Ministry of Education
- Robin Fabish, former tumuaki and leadership advisor for the Ministry of Education
- Lesley Murrihy, former principal, now chief advisor in Te Poutāhu, the curriculum centre of the Ministry of Education.
This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education as part of Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals.
You can learn more about this topic by accessing Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals e-learning modules on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz
Show notes
Episode themes:
- Things you can do when you first start as tumuaki to help your wellbeing in the longer term.
- No one solution fits everyone - different people need different things to sustain their wellbeing.
- The wide range of stresses that can impact a principal’s wellbeing.
- Importance of having a team of people you can lean on and call for advice or support – coaches, mentors, colleagues, Ministry of Education experts – when you need help.
- Don’t be afraid to spend school money on a quality coach, because you being properly supported will ultimately benefit your school.
- Learning to balance the parts of yourself in relation to the principal role.
- Dangers of using alcohol or other substances to cope with stresses.
- The importance of prioritising self-care – how you do that and what you feel is most important is up to you.
- Ways to prioritise your to-do list.
- Burnout, and ways to pull yourself back from the brink by decentering work in your life.
- The importance of delegation.
- Being ‘lonely at the top’ is a choice, not a given. Connecting with others is really important.
- Supports you can tap into as a tumuaki.
Additional information
Stephen Covey – rocks - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV3gMTOEWt8
Questions
1:31 [All] When you first step into the role as tumuaki, what are some of the things that you can do to help your well-being in the long term?
6:04 [All] What kinds of stresses can impact on a principal's wellbeing?
13:32 [All] And is it that that constant juggle between priorities and of the different parts of you that you need to pay attention to that makes self-care such a challenge for tumuaki?
16:41 [All] What are the what are the dangers that come with not looking after yourself?
20:08 [All] How did you go about prioritizing your w
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eleisha (00:07):
Kia ora and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new tumuaki in Aotearoa NewZealand. I'm Eleisha McNeill.
The principal role can be bothdemanding and complex. It
requires a lot of managerial andadministrative tasks. You're the
professional leader of theschool and you have
responsibility for and oversightof others. Your workload might
(00:28):
feel overwhelming at first. Itis absolutely essential that you
take time to look after yourself.And that's what we're talking
about in this bumper episode.We'll hear from three
experienced tumuaki about issuesthey've faced, how they dealt
with them, and where they wentfor support. Here are my guests.
Mārama (00:46):
Kia ora my name is Mārama Stewart, I'm currently a
leadership advisor for theMinistry of Education, but
previously I was a tumuaki insmall rural schools in Taihape,
Waiouru and in Whakatāne.
Robin (00:59):
Kia ora e te whānau, ko Robin Fabish ahau, no Ngāti
Māhanga, Ngāti Maniapoto hoki,I'm currently like Mārama
working as a leadership adviserat the Ministry of Education,
but I've come from Tamatea HighSchool where I was tumuaki there
for nine years.
Lesley (01:15):
Kia ora koutou, ko Lesley Murrihy tōku ingoa. I'm
currently a chief adviser in TePoutāhū, the curriculum centre
of the Ministry of Education.Prior to that I was a teacher
and a school principal for 14years.
Eleisha (01:30):
Awesome. Thanks for joining me today. I'll start by
asking, when you first step intothe role as tumuaki, what are
some of the things that you cando to help your well-being in
the long term? Maybe start withyou, Mārama.
Mārama (01:44):
So I think the first step you can probably do as a
beginning tumuaki, is justhaving some boundaries set up
really early on, because whatcan really get to you is you go
to turn off at the end of theday and then all of a sudden you
get all these emails and allthese expectations, and you do
have the right to turn off andgo home and enjoy your home life,
(02:06):
so establish how you're going tocommunicate with your staff and
when you are expecting to turnoff because you need that
home-work balance and the staffneeds to be very clear with that
at the forefront. Using your outof office, work hours
notifications on your emails,making sure they are turned off
for the weekend, having a chatwith your staff, talking about,
(02:30):
well, sometimes I send emails inthe evening. I don't expect for
you to answer these at this time.In fact helping them to turn off
the emails during the eveningand the weekends as well.
Robin (02:44):
What I would add to that is, I think it's really good to
discuss that and come to anunderstanding that we don't
communicate non-urgent outsideschool hours and we had an
understanding that we wouldschedule emails. So I would
schedule to send emails at 8:00the next morning rather than
send the emails at night time.And similarly with texting and
(03:07):
and phone calls. If they're noturgent then they can wait. And I
think having an understanding asa tumuaki that I don't do that
to others, but also that it'snot okay to be doing that to me,
just to look after thoseboundaries I think is really
important. I think it'simportant to understand that
initially you're sniffing thewind, you know, rongohia te hau,
(03:30):
you're getting an understandingof how things are going and you
don't have to rush in and a kneejerk reaction change. I'm not
going to turn the place upsidedown right from the get go. And
the other thing that I think isreally important as as a new
tumuaki to to join one of theprograms that are available for
beginning principals or tumuakihou, there's a number of
(03:53):
providers who offer support, TeAkatea for Māori principals and
at the moment EvaluationAssociates for all principals.
So there's a couple of optionsand just really awesome to have
a mentor who you can trust tospeak to and ask questions of.
Eleisha (04:11):
Lesley, what would you add?
Lesley (04:13):
I probably come from a slightly different perspective.
But first, I want to make adisclaimer, many who know me and
have worked with me would saythat I'm not a very good role
model of work life balance. I'vealways worked really hard,
probably way more than theaverage hours identified on
principal surveys, and to behonest, at times people have
made me feel guilty about it.However, I've learned not to
(04:35):
feel guilty because we're allunique individuals, and because
we're all different we needdifferent things to sustain
quality of life. For me it'sthought leadership and deep,
deep engagement with the ideasof education and writing about
them. That's when I get intoflow and lose track of time and
finish rejuvenated not exhausted.
Eleisha (04:58):
Mm
Lesley (04:58):
So I think one of the most important things a new
principal can do is to growtheir self-awareness
Eleisha (05:04):
hmm.
Lesley (05:04):
about who they are and what they need to sustain
quality of life, and then toorganise their life to do that,
which I know sounds much easierthan it actually is to do. And
so I've been incredibly blessedthroughout my principalship, to
have had wonderful long termcoaches and mentors. You know,
their impact on my life has beenimmeasurable. The role
Eleisha (05:26):
hmm
Lesley (05:26):
of a coach is to help you develop that self awareness
and then to support andchallenge you to organise your
life in such a way that itsustains you. And then over time,
their role is to keep you honestabout that and to keep you
reflecting on whether you'resustaining that quality of life.
So I guess it's making sure thatprincipals always have coaches
(05:48):
and mentors who support you bothpersonally and professionally,
and not to ever feel guiltyabout school money being spent
on a quality coach becauseenhancing your life will
ultimately benefit both theteachers and students in schools.
Eleisha (06:04):
Yeah, definitely. And what kinds of stresses can
impact on a principal'swellbeing?
Robin (06:09):
Well, there's a plethora of impacts, really. I mean,
Eleisha (06:12):
Yeah.
Robin (06:13):
it can be, range from school finances being out of
whack and not understandingwhat's going on or trying to get
your head around bank staffingthat seems to no matter what you
do you know, race away on you,right through to the counsellor
coming in and saying, well thisstudent has indicated they've
got suicidal ideations
Eleisha (06:35):
Mm.
Robin (06:35):
and this is what we're doing about it. And, you know,
as a principal, if you haven'tkind of come up against that
before, that can be kind of wideeyed stuff because it's like, oh,
and so, you know, how do youdeal with that? Or a staff
member who is teaching in a waythat is putting learning at risk
and they're not necessarily opento to having a discussion about
(06:58):
the concerns. So so there's youknow,al of those things and
everywhere in between. Andhaving multiple coaches or
multiple people you can turn toto support in those different
areas is really important. Iknow at the Ministry of
Education, we've got people whoare property experts, we've got
people who are finance experts,
Eleisha (07:16):
hmm hmm
Robin (07:17):
we've got leadership advisers. New principals should
have mentors, beginningprincipal mentors. So you really
should have a team of people.And one of the things that I
found really valuable was, washaving a coach
Eleisha (07:31):
hmm
Robin (07:31):
for
Eleisha (07:31):
hmm.
Robin (07:31):
essentially it was supervision, but really it's
counselling and you know, Iwould often end up having a bit
of a tangi in that sessionbecause I was feeling
overwhelmed by, you know, someof the responsibilities and the
humanity that I'm dealing with.
Eleisha (07:44):
Yeah.
Robin (07:44):
And, and those things are really important, that we spend
the money and spend the time toattend to our feelings. Because,
you know, as principals, we'renot automatons. We care deeply
that that's the reason thatwe're in our jobs. W care deeply
about young people and aboutsociety, and social justice
issues are really important tous. And when we're banging up
(08:08):
against challenges in thatregard, it can be very
disheartening. It is a trickything as a Māori principal,
because as a principal of aschool, which are crown entities,
I'm representing the government,
Eleisha (08:21):
Mm hmm.
Robin (08:22):
I'm representing the kāwanatanga and the Te Tiriti o
Waitangi relationship. But I'malso tangata whenua,
Eleisha (08:28):
Yeah.
Robin (08:29):
I also have my hapū and iwi connections.And so I'm
deeply committed to Māoriachievement and addressing
equity issues in that space. Butat the same time, I represent
the government.
Eleisha (08:41):
Yeah.
Robin (08:41):
And so sometimes there can be a disconnect at that
level, sometimes there can be adisconnect with those issues at
the community level. And I haveto navigate that space and
recognise that for me as atangata Māori, those things are
deeply personal to me. Those arenot just kind of theoretical
(09:03):
issues. I'm talking about mygrandchildren, my mokopuna,
Eleisha (09:06):
Yeah.
Robin (09:07):
when I'm thinking about equity. And so I need to find
ways to deal with some of thosechallenges. And one of the
things that I've learnt from TeKīngitanga is that sense of,
you know, governments come andgo, we have new ideas come and
go, but tangata whenuatangaendures, and just kind of
(09:30):
changing the perspective helpsto be patient and accepting of
changing times and knowing thatin the long term our aspirations
don't change.
Eleisha (09:39):
Mm hmm. Yeah
Mārama, would you have anythingto add to that?
Mārama (09:44):
Yeah, I had to learn. So in my fourth year
principalship, I became a firsttime mum. So that has been a
huge and it's a change as thedemographics of principals have
changed, there's more of us
Eleisha (10:00):
Mm hmm.
Mārama (10:01):
that have young children now and are principals,
there weren't so many when Ifirst started, learning to
balance that. I was veryfortunate, I had a very
supportive board, I had a cot inmy office, I didn't have to send
my child to daycare 24 seven andI could walk them over to the
neighbouring daycare. But thatthat was a really hard thing.
Eleisha (10:24):
Yeah.
Mārama (10:25):
The mummy guilt along
Eleisha (10:26):
Yeah.
Mārama (10:27):
with principal guilt which sometimes feels like mummy
guilt as well. It really kind ofmingles a little bit there for a
wee while.
But I think looking back andrecognising it's normal you have
to just think well what, whatcan I influence right now? What
am I in control of, what can Ido. And then be kind to yourself.
(10:48):
Sometimes you get a nice payrise as a principal. So we got
cleaner. I got a cleaner once aweek. They did all the sheets
and and once a week I got homeand it just smelt clean and it
made me feel good. So, you know,be kind to yourself.
Eleisha (11:04):
Yeah, definitely. Definitely it is. You know, it
just having that kind of mentalbalance between all of the parts
of you and who you are as aperson. Lesley, what would you
say are the stresses that impactmost on your wellbeing when
you're tumuaki?
Lesley (11:20):
As Robin said, there are, of course many stresses,
Eleisha (11:23):
Mm
Lesley (11:23):
and I'll just mention too, I think the breadth of the
role, or maybe it's the extremesand the spread of the role can
be really stressful
Eleisha (11:32):
hmm.
Lesley (11:32):
that you almost get whiplash sometimes.You know,
one minute you're in your officeworking on your strategic plan
and the next you are a caretakeror cleaner sorting the blocked
toilets. And this is probablymore particularly in smaller
schools. And then once you'vewashed your hands, you might
have to deal with thenotification of child abuse or
suicide ideation, as Robinmentioned, you know, which is
(11:56):
the worst, most painful thing ofall to do. So your time is often
not your own and you have todeal with things that cause a
lot of pain and angst andrequire you to work very, very
carefully.
Eleisha (12:08):
hmm
Lesley (12:08):
So your plans
Eleisha (12:09):
hmm
Lesley (12:09):
for the day can be scuttled in a second and you're
left wondering how on earthyou're ever going to finish the
strategic plan for the boardmeeting on Wednesday? You know,
that's kind of that's aprincipal's life. And I think
another really stressful aspectis the competing and conflicting
priorities that you experienceas a principal on a regular
(12:29):
basis. You know, as a principal,we know that, you know, our
greatest priority is ensuringthat the students in our school
are progressing and that they'resafe and well.
Eleisha (12:39):
hmm hmm
Lesley (12:39):
But, you know, you're also responsible to be a good
employer to your teachers onbehalf of the board and support
their wellbeing. You have legalresponsibilities and
responsibilities to your parentsand community and often these
responsibilities and prioritiesconflict. So when an issue
arises and you work through theoptions, you realise that
there's no one perfect solution.
Eleisha (13:01):
hmm
Lesley (13:01):
Someone in the end is going to be unhappy with the
decision you made. Andprincipals encounter these,
these really difficultsituations frequently and they
can be very stressful. Thetemptation sometimes is to give
in to or prioritise the squeakywheel, you know, the person who
will complain the most,
Eleisha (13:21):
hmm hmm.
Lesley (13:22):
this is the time to get advice from people outside the
situation so that you'resupported to see the multiple
perspectives and helped to cometo the best solution.
Eleisha (13:32):
Yeah, definitely. And is it that that constant juggle
between, you know, of prioritiesand and of the different parts
of you that you need to payattention to that makes
self-care such a challenge fortumuaki?
Lesley (13:45):
I mean, I absolutely think that it is, because you
have to learn to deal withambiguity
Eleisha (13:51):
Yeah.
Lesley (13:52):
and ambiguity is always stressful and ambiguity always
makes you anxious. it's reallyhard to be 100% sure that you've
come to the right decision. Andso I think that that is a that's
a very stressful way to live alife.
Eleisha (14:07):
Yeah. Robin?
Robin (14:09):
You know, I'm reminded of a story that Stephen Covey talks
about in his book around timemanagement, and he uses the
analogy of the jar and puts awhole lot of rocks in and then
says, is there room for more?Yes, you put stones, gravel in
yes, there's room for more, sand,water. And you know, what's the
message? Oh there's always spacefor more. Well, no, if you try
(14:32):
and put the rocks in last, theywon't fit.
Eleisha (14:35):
Yeah,
Robin (14:35):
And the rocks are the important things in our lives.
And self-care is one of thethings that that are our rocks
and to me, self-care is, youknow, attending to our personal
relationships. So making surethat, you know, if we have
families, loved ones, that we'remaking time for those things
(14:56):
because as they say, when we'reon our deathbed, those are the
things that are most importantto us right? But it's also
looking after our health.
Eleisha (15:04):
Yeah.
Robin (15:04):
So, you know what, what are we doing for exercise,
whether that's walking orrunning marathons or,you know,
there's no as Leslie's saying,there's no recipe. There's just
whatever works for you. Eatingwell. And one of the things that
I think is really important interms of self-care is having
someone who you can talk to whenyou've had that emotional
(15:26):
experience
Eleisha (15:27):
Mm hmm.
Robin (15:28):
where you just need someone to listen to you.
Eleisha (15:30):
Yeah
Robin (15:30):
I don't need you to solve this for me, I just need to
share it. Problem shared is aproblem halved and being able to
have someone and and oftenthat's not your your personal or
your strong relationship. Likegoing home and trying to talk
about those things is not alwaysthe best thing to do, but it's
good to have someone whounderstands, who you can just
(15:50):
share, look, I just need you tolisten to me. And that's a
really important part ofself-care.
Eleisha (15:56):
Mārama.
Mārama (15:57):
I think it can be a challenge too, because you feel
guilty like you need to get thestuff done, bu do you need to
get this done? Can it wait tillMonday? It's okay to turn off.
You don't have to feel guilty ifyou've put in your 8 hours and
you're just not ahead you'reprobably not going to have the
right frame of mind to do a goodjob of whatever's on that to do
(16:19):
list right now. Just leave it.Leave it till you've had a rest.
A lot of people don't realisethat actually that cramming
really late when you're tiredand exhausted and hungry is not
your best work. So the bestthing you can do for your school
is to go have a rest and thenyou will be well for everybody
else and for yourself actually,more importantly.
Eleisha (16:40):
Yeah. So what are the what are the dangers that come
with not looking after yourself?Robin.
Robin (16:47):
I think the big one that I'm really conscious of that I
learned was that drinking toomuch alcohol is not a good thing.
Eleisha (16:55):
Yeah.
Robin (16:56):
So I love cooking. So one of my ways of relaxing at the
end of the day is going home andcooking and I would often have a
beer or two, you know, while I'mcooking. And then as time
progressed, I would put a fingeror two of whiskey in my beer, so
I'd have three or four of those,
Eleisha (17:14):
Mm
Robin (17:14):
have dinner, fall asleep on the couch trying to watch the
news, wa up at 11:00 at night,think I'd better go to bed
Eleisha (17:22):
hmm.
Robin (17:22):
and, you know, have a crap sleep. And I might do that
four or five times a week. Andwhile it helped me to kind of
forget about the pressures ofthe day, it actually put me on a
on a spiral
Eleisha (17:35):
Mm hmm.
Robin (17:35):
because I can't give 100% the next day when I'm feeling a
bit dusty from the night before.And so when I realised that this
was a problem for me, I switchedto 0% alcohol so I could still
have a beer while I was cooking.But it wasn't having the impact
of you know, losing the controlthat I needed to, to know when
to stop and also to make surethat my sleeping was um
(18:00):
recreational for me so that I'dstart the next day fresh and I
could give my best to my role.So I think there's a real, you
know, red flag any any kind ofways of coping that involves
substances is is something to beaware of. And also, you know, if
we're using food to kind ofcomfort then, then that's not
(18:21):
the one either because you can,you know, blow up and then not
be healthy either. So I thinkthose are really important
things to be aware of.
Eleisha (18:29):
Definitely, the health implications. Lesley, what would
you add to that about the risksof not looking after yourself?
Lesley (18:36):
Ah similar things, you know, that kind of not being
able to do your job as well asyou could, poor decision making
or, you know, the risk of poordecision making, losing your
ability to be empathetic as
Eleisha (18:51):
Mm
Lesley (18:51):
you know, as you start to spiral down and then having
insufficient energy to engage inthe things that make you happy.
So it becomes this kind ofcontinuous downward spiral
impacting family and otherrelationships. Mental health
issues, of course,
Eleisha (19:07):
hmm.
Lesley (19:08):
burn out and, you know, a myriad of other health risks.
So it's huge.
Eleisha (19:14):
Definitely. Mārama.
Mārama (19:16):
Um, I think too, we talk about burnout and sometimes
there's this false perceptionthat you're not good enough, or
you didn't do do enough or youweren't able to do what you
needed to do and therefore youburned out. And actually all the
research shows that it's thehigh achievers, the clever
people, the people who actuallysay, I can do it better than
(19:37):
this person, and I can do thatbetter than that person, and and
they're holding everythingtogether and they're really,
really good. But actually that'swhat burns people out.
So sometimes if you are a reallyhigh achiever, you need to look
at yourself and actually say, no,no, I this is not how I would do
(20:02):
it, but sometimes you just gotto leave good enough as good
enough.
Eleisha (20:07):
I just wanted to add in here, if you're finding this
discussion triggering, pleasedon't put it off. Please talk to
someone you trust. If you needfurther help, speak with your GP
or if you need to talk tosomeone urgently, please call or
text 1737.
How do you guys when you're inthe tumuaki role? How did you go
(20:28):
about prioritizing your work tomake sure that you did what you
needed to do, but also didn'tstress yourselves out trying to
do it all? Mārama.
Mārama (20:38):
I didn't for a while, to be honest. Everything I've
learned is because I made thewrong decision. I think the very
first thing I needed to do was Iwas terrible at doomscrolling.
I'd get home and doomscroll, andI had to learn to stop it. It's
an addiction. It's terrible. Ihad to put it down and I had to
find something that turned meoff. The first part of managing
(21:01):
time is taking back some of yourown time, I think. And then, I
just always had, like, threethings that I had to get done
that day. Just three things thatI wanted to tick off. I mean, we
had another list of a whole lotof other things that needed to
get done but I only had to makethat chunk done, and it kind of
(21:22):
accounted for when the officelady was away and I had to do
attendance and the kid's leg'sfalling off because he's fallen
out of a tree, you know, allthat stuff. Okay, I've got those
three things and reallycelebrate in myself that I got
that little thing done.
Eleisha (21:36):
Robin, how did you. How did you prioritize?
Robin (21:39):
I'm like Mārama and I have lists
Eleisha (21:41):
Mm hmm.
Robin (21:42):
and it's kind of a never ending list. But, you know, I
get the satisfaction of crossingthings out.
Eleisha (21:48):
Yeah.
Robin (21:48):
And so if I look at my list and think, yes I've crossed
a few things out today, that'sgreat. Oh, yes, I added a few
more,but I don't worry aboutthose. I just focus on I, I
crossed a few things off. Andthe other thing that I recognize
is about tumuaki role is that,you know, there's a certain
satisfaction if, you know, I'mgoal orientated and like to get
things done and you know, by9:00 in the morning on any given
(22:12):
day, there might be a dozenthings that you've already
attended to, problems thatyou've solved, and that can be
quite satisfying. So but it'salso about those things that are
important, and this is Covey'sstuff again, you know, the The
important stuff, that's ourrocks. the urgent but not
important well how
Eleisha (22:30):
Mm
Robin (22:30):
do
Eleisha (22:30):
hmm.
Robin (22:30):
we minimise that stuff? So, you know, sometimes I might
say, okay, well I'm going to putin my calendar 2 hours to work
on my strategic plan and I'mactually going to go home and do
that. So that I do get thatsense of making progress on the,
the important but not urgentstuff as well. So it's a matter
of, you know, getting a balancein that regard.
Eleisha (22:49):
Lesley, you've you've talked about not being the best
role model. How how did youprioritize or did you just try
to do everything?
Lesley (22:56):
I think it's an ongoing journey, but let's just put it
that way. And, you know, at theend of the first term of 2015
quite by chance, I attended asession at a coaching conference
with a psychologist on burnoutand as she discussed the
symptoms of burnout, I wasreally shocked to realise that I
(23:17):
was experiencing many of them.
Eleisha (23:19):
Mm
Lesley (23:20):
By the end of the presentation I realised that I
was right at the very edge ofthe burnout cliff and that if I
didn't do something about it,I'd fall into the abyss.
Eleisha (23:29):
hmm.
Lesley (23:29):
And I had learned that that's not a great place to be
and it takes a long, long timeto recover. And so, you know, as
I reflected, I realised a numberof things. Firstly, I had opened
a new school in 2012 and for thethree terms prior to that and
since then I'd worked huge
Eleisha (23:48):
Mm
Lesley (23:48):
hours every week and through the holidays because
there was just so much to getdone. But I hadn't slowed down.
So three years after opening, Iwas still working those same
ridiculous hours. So the firstthing that I did then was to cut
my working week by 15 hours. Andthe second thing that I realised
(24:10):
was that that second half of2014 had been very difficult for
Eleisha (24:14):
hmm.
Lesley (24:15):
me.I lost two people who were very dear to me,
including my father, and thishappened while we were also
building a new house
Eleisha (24:23):
Oh, my gosh.
Lesley (24:23):
and then all that. And I had, you know, my last two still
at home, my teenage daughters.And in all that busyness, I
realised that I hadn't mournedproperly
Eleisha (24:33):
Mm
Lesley (24:34):
for these people that I loved. So I had to take time to
do that. And I did lots of theother usual things that have
already been mentioned, likeexercise more. I had a couple of
counselling sessions and ofcourse I had my coach to talk to.
But I also made more effort toprioritize doing more of the
things that I love at work. Idid more educational writing and
(24:55):
set up a website to publish iton, and most people wouldn't
think that would help the stress,but for me it does. And I think
that at that point I began aprocess of decentering work and
my life
Eleisha (25:08):
Yeah.
Lesley (25:08):
and giving priority to other aspects of my life outside
work, doing things that I loved,like more like cooking. And as
you've mentioned, Robin,
Eleisha (25:17):
Mm
Lesley (25:18):
you know, entertaining and family get togethers, which
had always been something that Ilove to do, but I'd kind of lost
that and, and all that busynessand this process of the
decentering work has been slowand continuous over the last ten
years. And I just want to stress,you know, that it's been a long,
slow process coming back fromthat cliff edge and actually
(25:39):
that we probably never learn howto deal with stress and, you
know, the guilt and it'ssomething that keeps coming
Eleisha (25:47):
Yeah.
Lesley (25:47):
back and that we just have to continually deal with
and address. And so having thosesupports around us is really
essential to keep reminding us.and I think that in terms of the
kind of near burnout is it wasan accumulation of things, not
just me working too hard, but itwas big things, layering on top
(26:09):
of other big
Eleisha (26:09):
Mm hmm.
Lesley (26:10):
things and know we have to be aware that at some of
those times when thoseadditional difficult things
happen, that we are most at risk.
Eleisha (26:17):
Yeah.
Lesley (26:18):
And also burnout doesn't announce itself in bright neon
lights. And you know, I went tothat conference not really even
realizing that anything wasparticularly wrong. I mean, I
was aware that I'd kind of lostmy joy,
Eleisha (26:32):
Mm hmm.
Lesley (26:32):
you know? So I think, you know, again, we need to keep
growing our self awareness andregularly take time to stop,
look and listen, to see howthings are impacting on us.
Eleisha (26:42):
Yeah. And what about you, Robin? When it came to
managing your your life astumuaki you know, and as you all
keep alluding to there'sdifferent parts of you, you're
not just a principal, you're afamily member, you're a parent,
you're a friend, you're often amentor for other people. And so
how did you manage everythingthat came with being a tumuaki?
Robin (27:04):
I've just been reflecting I think one of the things that's
really important is delegation.You know, it's a real trap to
fall into that, I'm the best onewho can do everything because I
have the standards and oh justleave it to me. I'll do it. And
you can't do everything. You'vegot to have people who you grow
(27:24):
into taking leadership invarious areas and, you know,
whether that's somebody whosteps into that role of looking
after property and just keepingyou informed or because, you
know, you can't keep all theballs in the air yourself,
you've got to have some peoplestanding beside you doing some
of the juggling, too. And italso reminds me of that saying,
(27:46):
you know, people say it's lonelyat the top. And I would
challenge that. I would say thatif if you're lonely at the top,
then that's that's a choice. Wedon't have to be lonely.
Eleisha (27:55):
Mm hmm.
Robin (27:56):
And if we reach out and we've got mentors and we've got
personal relationships that havenothing to do with school to
sustain us then we don't have tobe lonely, I think that's a
really important distinction tomake.
Eleisha (28:09):
Mm
Robin (28:09):
It can be a heavy responsibility being at the top,
but there's no doubt about that.But you don't have to shoulder
it alone. I think that's reallyimportant. so having strategies
to manage the load at school isimportant. But to come back to,
you know, how do you manage thatbalance of personal life? I You
know, I've got childhood friendswho I went to school with who
(28:29):
are my best mates who know meand understand me, and I make
time to ring them on the phoneevery week. And from time to
time we'll get together andthose are important sustaining
relationships for me. Family'simportant. So making sure that
we've got time for family. I didsome, I guess, personality
(28:49):
analysis stuff and one of my topvalues is connection. And so
it's attending to how do I makesure that I'm feeling connected
to the people who are importantto me. So feeding off what
Lesley's saying, it'sself-awareness, self-reflection,and
thinking about, okay, what do Ineed to do to look after myself?
Know thyself, huh?
Eleisha (29:10):
Definitely. Mārama?
Mārama (29:12):
So speaking about loneliness, that really hits
something there Robin. I've beenworking as a leadership advise
for 13 months now, and I've beenworking as a mentor principal
for beginning principals aboutsix years and it's the the
principals that reach out earlyand ask questions and have a
(29:32):
network are the ones that dowell. As soon as principals
start dropping off, and we don'thear back from them from emails,
and we don't see them atassociation meetings, that's
when we generally can tellsomething's going wrong. A the
thing is, and I have to keepsaying, don't say sorry, they
always say sorry can I ask you aquestion? Don't say sorry,
(29:53):
because this is a burden wherewe can all share together. I st..
I am still friends with theprincipals in my first time
principals cohort. I have onefriend who is an ultra-nerd and
will read every single researchreport into pedagogy and
leadership with Post-it notes,and I will ring and say bro, I
(30:15):
can't read this, is this good?And he'll say Yes. And then
he'll ring me and have all thetechnology questions like, what
should I buy? So, you know,create, make your hive
Eleisha (30:24):
Yeah
Mārama (30:24):
mind, and the Ministry as well. They want you to reach
out as soon as you think, ooh, Idon't know. Because if we can
help you and support you to findan answer early, then you know
it's solved early. We're notgoing to growl you or whatever,
but we'd rather get in early andgive you the support you need to
(30:44):
be the best that you can be.
Eleisha (30:46):
Totally. And what, more formal supports are there to to
help principal wellbeing?
Robin (30:52):
O, there's beginning principal programmes or tumuaki
hau programmes
Eleisha (30:55):
Mm hmm.
Robin (30:57):
to support with mentorship. So those programmes
involve, you know, onlinelearning and group learning and,
and wānanga together and alsovisits from an experienced
principal to provide support. AsMārama has said, the Ministry
of Education actually exists tosupport schools to be successful
(31:18):
for, for our tamariki and thereare a lot of committed people in
the Ministry working in the areaof property and in finance and
leadership who can give supportwith some of those questions
where people don't understand.I'm really was grateful for
having an accounting firm whoprovided guidance. And, you know,
(31:39):
our accountant I would meet withon a regular basis and talk
through the budget and how we'reprogressing. And that just gave
me confidence when he said to me,yep, you're in a good position
and these are the reasons why.And it was really important for
me to hear that from an expert,to know that I was on the right
track. You know, there's legalsupport for people who are
(32:01):
members of the SPANZ network.You know, there are lawyers that
they offer to for support withvarious issues. There's the
school board association andthey're great with that HR
advice and governance support.So there really is, you know, a
lot of options in that regard.
Mārama (32:22):
i would just add to that don't forget the unions and
the work they put into yourcontract. Your contract is there
and in the contract that seesthat your board is responsible
for helping you to be well. Sogetting to know your contract
really well, getting thatsupport from NZEI or PPTA or
whoever and just helping you allto understand that you are
(32:44):
allowed to turn off your phone.Creating those boundaries and
you're and you're backed up by acontract.
Eleisha (32:50):
I'd like to ask each of you what you do for your own
wellbeing. A number ofprincipals I've spoken to do a
couple of hours teaching a weekbecause, you know, it helps fill
their bucket. What kinds ofthings did you do for yourselves
when you were tumuaki to makesure you did have something for
yourself Mārama?
Mārama (33:11):
At school, my favourite part of the day are the kids.So
every morning I visited everyclass. I'd just pop in and say,
hi,tell a bad joke, whenever Iwas like, oh I can't deal with
this computer anymore I'd go andannoy the five year olds. Yeah,
they are hilarious. At home I umlearnt a new sport I I could not
(33:33):
think about anything other thanthat sport and the biggest
actually thing that has improvedmy wellbeing is for seven years
my kids went to school with meand then I sent them to a
different school and I couldjust be their mum and that was
life changing and I love justbeing their mum. For a while I
(33:54):
was like, oh gosh, do I look badthat I sent my kids to another
school? Well actually, it's forthe selfish reasons I want to
spoil them rotten and I justwant to do what all the other
parents do and that was a hugefor me and I love just swanning
in and being a mum and being aparent help. Yeah. So
Eleisha (34:11):
It's
Mārama (34:11):
yeah,
Eleisha (34:11):
awesome.
Mārama (34:12):
life balance.
Eleisha (34:13):
Yeah. Open.
Robin (34:15):
So for my own wellbeing, you know, I try and do 10,000
steps a day. So that means, youknow, I probably walking the dog
or so I enjoy doing that and mydarling enjoys walking the dog
with me and she does a lot oftalking, I do a lot of listening
at that time. So it's a it's a,you know, connection time for us.
(34:36):
But I also like doing waka ama,beautiful to be
Eleisha (34:39):
Yeah.
Robin (34:39):
on the water and just get into that meditative space. I
like swimming. I Also play videogames. So, you know, I play
Fortnite on on the
Eleisha (34:47):
He.
Robin (34:47):
X-Box and that's a great relaxant for me. The other thing
I think that's really importantis getting enough sleep. So,
Eleisha (34:55):
Yeah.
Robin (34:56):
you know, going to bed early rather than, you know,
watching too much TV and justwasting time in the evening.
Yeah, those are those are thingsthat are important to me as well
as, you know, organising time tobe with the kids. And my son has
been coming swimming with merecently, so I really enjoy that.
So I get a hit for familyconnection as well as, you know,
(35:16):
health and wellbeing
Eleisha (35:17):
Awesome. What about you, Leslie?
Lesley (35:20):
Definitely standing on the sidelines while my kids
played sports. You know, everyweekend we were, you know,
traveling or doing sportingthings and that kind of forced
me away from the workenvironment and I just really
loved watching them, still do. Ithink, always learning,
(35:41):
continuous learning is reallyimportant to me. I always have
multiple books on the go and,and I think, you know, assisting
other people in their growth anddevelopment, I find really
refreshing and rejuvenating. AsI've already talked about
writing
Eleisha (35:58):
Yeah.
Lesley (35:58):
and kind of thinking about education and walking and
cycling, Yeah, so just a wholerange of things.
Eleisha (36:07):
So what's your best advice for new tumuaki about
looking after themselves?Mārama, maybe I'll start with
you again.
Mārama (36:15):
Form your tribe, find your people, find your
connections, find who you trustand connect with them. Maybe a
couple of beginning principalsso you can share experience.
Yeah, create that tribe ofpeople that you can connect with
throughout the day, throughoutthe week and that keep you real.
Eleisha (36:33):
Robin.
Robin (36:34):
My best advice would be to be patient, patient with
yourself as a new principal andunderstand that it is a huge job
and is there'll be a lot ofthings that new principals don't
know, they haven't hadexperience with. So it is a big
learning curve and be patientwith yourself on the learning
curve just as we would, you know,any ākonga in our school, we'd
(36:56):
be patient with them as theylearn and, you know, develop
their expertise and make surewe've got supports to help with
with that learning process.
Eleisha (37:07):
Yeah Lesley?
Lesley (37:09):
I think one of the things is, you know, over time
building that right leadershipteam around you
Eleisha (37:15):
Mm
Lesley (37:15):
so that you can then shape your role and enable them
to shape theirs. And for me thissometimes meant, you know going
back into the classroom andteaching for a term which I
always really loved. I think inthe way that I've been a
principal, I've had to bewilling to kind of step outside
of how people perceive the roleof a principal, because I have
(37:37):
some kind of different needs.And
Eleisha (37:40):
hmm.
Lesley (37:41):
and this wasn't always easy and it drew criticism at
times, especially sometimes fromother principals. But, you know,
for me, deep cognitiveengagement with educational
ideas was like breathing,
Eleisha (37:53):
Yeah.
Lesley (37:54):
which is why I did a doctorate while I was a first
time principal.
Eleisha (37:57):
Oh, my gosh.
Lesley (37:59):
So.So I think my best advice is when all is said and
done, be yourself.
Eleisha (38:06):
Yeah.
Lesley (38:06):
Do you as a principal, you know, that's the best way to
safeguard your wellbeing andthat might look different from
other people.
Eleisha (38:14):
Brilliant advice. I've come to the end of my questions.
Is there anything that youwanted to add that we haven't
covered?
Mārama (38:21):
I would use your beginning principal status. Like
use it, it's an asset. When youdon't know, ring and say, I'm a
beginning principal, I have noidea. Honestly, use it, it's an
asset, you get away with it fora good two and a half years. So
just make it part of yourarsenal
Eleisha (38:39):
You're not the first person who said that people
forgive you when you're a firsttime principal because you don't
have to know everything. Andit's perfectly okay to say. Yeah,
Robin (38:49):
Eleisha the other thing I'd add is that, you know, after
five years in the roleprincipals qualify for a
sabbatical, secondary for a term.I'm not sure about primary or
area schools. Sometimes they canbe a bit longer, but it's good
to be thinking about that inyour fourth year so that you do
actually take it. I was in myfinal year, ninth year before I
(39:11):
actually took my sabbatical andI think it would have helped me
if I'd been able to take it abit earlier. So I think it's
important to have some time outto do those things that are, you
know, recreate ourselves,whether that's, you know,
reading and writing or just timeaway or visiting other schools
or other countries to get anidea of what's available. But
(39:34):
plan to take that.
Eleisha (39:35):
Lesley, could you have done your doctorate in that
sabbatical time?
Lesley (39:39):
I did have a sabbatical. I did it the wrong time of my
doctorate. I did it early. Ishould have done it when I was
actually at that horrificwriting stage. No, I love the
writing, but it's is brutal.
Eleisha (39:52):
Yeah.
Lesley (39:53):
So I think also, you know, just want something I want
to add. As you know, thosepeople that you gather around
them, you don't want yes people,you know, my my two coaches and
mentors that I mentioned, theycould be brutal with me in
calling me out about things. And
Eleisha (40:10):
hmm.
Lesley (40:10):
I think we really need that. We don't need someone just
to keep saying it's okay. Youknow, but they need to say
actually Lesley get real.
Eleisha (40:17):
Yeah.
Lesley (40:18):
And yeah, so I think that's very important that we
choose people who will challengeus. So it's not just support,
but it's support and challenge.
Eleisha (40:27):
definitely
Robin (40:28):
Also that whole space of, social media and keeping
ourselves private and our publicprofile, is I had a Facebook
profile which I never sharedwith any students or many staff
members to be fair. And Icreated a separate one called
Matua Robin, which I used forconnecting with the school
(40:49):
community just to have that thatsense of space and looking after
myself in that regard. I livedin the community that I worked
in and I was really comfortablewith that. It was nice to bump
into people at Pak'n'Save and dosome pastoral, you know, problem
solving there. But it isimportant, particularly in that
(41:10):
social media space, to giveyourself, I think, a bit of
privacy and manage, you know,how we're we're interacting with
our communities.
Eleisha (41:19):
Yeah, for sure.
Mārama (41:20):
Yeah, I think too that's really important. But the
flipside too, I've been able totalk to lots of really worried
parents to say, hey, my my kidscreamed on his first day of
school and didn't want to let mego. And I work in the office
over there like, this is normal.Yeah, all this crazy stuff your
kid's doing it's normal. I'veexperienced it and it'll be okay.
So yeah, giving them your humanface because sometimes they
(41:43):
forget that you're human and amum and a person. And that's
really important. You keepreminding them that, yeah, I'm
doing my very best, but I'm justme and that's okay.
Eleisha (41:55):
I love that. I'm just me, and that's okay. Totally.
Totally. Hey thank you all forbeing so open today and for
sharing your knowledge and yourexperiences.
Lesley (42:06):
Thanks.
Eleisha (42:07):
Thank
Interview (42:07):
Ka
Eleisha (42:07):
you.
Interview (42:08):
kite.
Eleisha (42:09):
In upcoming episodes, we're going to be talking about
looking after learning. See younext time.
Kia ora and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new tumuaki in Aotearoa NewZealand. I'm Eleisha McNeill.
The principal role can be bothdemanding and complex. It
requires a lot of managerial andadministrative tasks. You're the
professional leader of theschool and you have
responsibility for and oversightof others. Your workload might
(00:28):
feel overwhelming at first. Itis absolutely essential that you
take time to look after yourself.And that's what we're talking
about in this bumper episode.We'll hear from three
experienced tumuaki about issuesthey've faced, how they dealt
with them, and where they wentfor support. Here are my guests.
Mārama (00:46):
Kia ora my name is Mārama Stewart, I'm currently a
leadership advisor for theMinistry of Education, but
previously I was a tumuaki insmall rural schools in Taihape,
Waiouru and in Whakatāne.
Robin (00:59):
Kia ora e te whānau, ko Robin Fabish ahau, no Ngāti
Māhanga, Ngāti Maniapoto hoki,I'm currently like Mārama
working as a leadership adviserat the Ministry of Education,
but I've come from Tamatea HighSchool where I was tumuaki there
for nine years.
Lesley (01:15):
Kia ora koutou, ko Lesley Murrihy tōku ingoa. I'm
currently a chief adviser in TePoutāhū, the curriculum centre
of the Ministry of Education.Prior to that I was a teacher
and a school principal for 14years.
Eleisha (01:30):
Awesome. Thanks for joining me today. I'll start by
asking, when you first step intothe role as tumuaki, what are
some of the things that you cando to help your well-being in
the long term? Maybe start withyou, Mārama.
Mārama (01:44):
So I think the first step you can probably do as a
beginning tumuaki, is justhaving some boundaries set up
really early on, because whatcan really get to you is you go
to turn off at the end of theday and then all of a sudden you
get all these emails and allthese expectations, and you do
have the right to turn off andgo home and enjoy your home life,
(02:06):
so establish how you're going tocommunicate with your staff and
when you are expecting to turnoff because you need that
home-work balance and the staffneeds to be very clear with that
at the forefront. Using your outof office, work hours
notifications on your emails,making sure they are turned off
for the weekend, having a chatwith your staff, talking about,
(02:30):
well, sometimes I send emails inthe evening. I don't expect for
you to answer these at this time.In fact helping them to turn off
the emails during the eveningand the weekends as well.
Robin (02:44):
What I would add to that is, I think it's really good to
discuss that and come to anunderstanding that we don't
communicate non-urgent outsideschool hours and we had an
understanding that we wouldschedule emails. So I would
schedule to send emails at 8:00the next morning rather than
send the emails at night time.And similarly with texting and
(03:07):
and phone calls. If they're noturgent then they can wait. And I
think having an understanding asa tumuaki that I don't do that
to others, but also that it'snot okay to be doing that to me,
just to look after thoseboundaries I think is really
important. I think it'simportant to understand that
initially you're sniffing thewind, you know, rongohia te hau,
(03:30):
you're getting an understandingof how things are going and you
don't have to rush in and a kneejerk reaction change. I'm not
going to turn the place upsidedown right from the get go. And
the other thing that I think isreally important as as a new
tumuaki to to join one of theprograms that are available for
beginning principals or tumuakihou, there's a number of
(03:53):
providers who offer support, TeAkatea for Māori principals and
at the moment EvaluationAssociates for all principals.
So there's a couple of optionsand just really awesome to have
a mentor who you can trust tospeak to and ask questions of.
Eleisha (04:11):
Lesley, what would you add?
Lesley (04:13):
I probably come from a slightly different perspective.
But first, I want to make adisclaimer, many who know me and
have worked with me would saythat I'm not a very good role
model of work life balance. I'vealways worked really hard,
probably way more than theaverage hours identified on
principal surveys, and to behonest, at times people have
made me feel guilty about it.However, I've learned not to
(04:35):
feel guilty because we're allunique individuals, and because
we're all different we needdifferent things to sustain
quality of life. For me it'sthought leadership and deep,
deep engagement with the ideasof education and writing about
them. That's when I get intoflow and lose track of time and
finish rejuvenated not exhausted.
Eleisha (04:58):
Mm
Lesley (04:58):
So I think one of the most important things a new
principal can do is to growtheir self-awareness
Eleisha (05:04):
hmm.
Lesley (05:04):
about who they are and what they need to sustain
quality of life, and then toorganise their life to do that,
which I know sounds much easierthan it actually is to do. And
so I've been incredibly blessedthroughout my principalship, to
have had wonderful long termcoaches and mentors. You know,
their impact on my life has beenimmeasurable. The role
Eleisha (05:26):
hmm
Lesley (05:26):
of a coach is to help you develop that self awareness
and then to support andchallenge you to organise your
life in such a way that itsustains you. And then over time,
their role is to keep you honestabout that and to keep you
reflecting on whether you'resustaining that quality of life.
So I guess it's making sure thatprincipals always have coaches
(05:48):
and mentors who support you bothpersonally and professionally,
and not to ever feel guiltyabout school money being spent
on a quality coach becauseenhancing your life will
ultimately benefit both theteachers and students in schools.
Eleisha (06:04):
Yeah, definitely. And what kinds of stresses can
impact on a principal'swellbeing?
Robin (06:09):
Well, there's a plethora of impacts, really. I mean,
Eleisha (06:12):
Yeah.
Robin (06:13):
it can be, range from school finances being out of
whack and not understandingwhat's going on or trying to get
your head around bank staffingthat seems to no matter what you
do you know, race away on you,right through to the counsellor
coming in and saying, well thisstudent has indicated they've
got suicidal ideations
Eleisha (06:35):
Mm.
Robin (06:35):
and this is what we're doing about it. And, you know,
as a principal, if you haven'tkind of come up against that
before, that can be kind of wideeyed stuff because it's like, oh,
and so, you know, how do youdeal with that? Or a staff
member who is teaching in a waythat is putting learning at risk
and they're not necessarily opento to having a discussion about
(06:58):
the concerns. So so there's youknow,al of those things and
everywhere in between. Andhaving multiple coaches or
multiple people you can turn toto support in those different
areas is really important. Iknow at the Ministry of
Education, we've got people whoare property experts, we've got
people who are finance experts,
Eleisha (07:16):
hmm hmm
Robin (07:17):
we've got leadership advisers. New principals should
have mentors, beginningprincipal mentors. So you really
should have a team of people.And one of the things that I
found really valuable was, washaving a coach
Eleisha (07:31):
hmm
Robin (07:31):
for
Eleisha (07:31):
hmm.
Robin (07:31):
essentially it was supervision, but really it's
counselling and you know, Iwould often end up having a bit
of a tangi in that sessionbecause I was feeling
overwhelmed by, you know, someof the responsibilities and the
humanity that I'm dealing with.
Eleisha (07:44):
Yeah.
Robin (07:44):
And, and those things are really important, that we spend
the money and spend the time toattend to our feelings. Because,
you know, as principals, we'renot automatons. We care deeply
that that's the reason thatwe're in our jobs. W care deeply
about young people and aboutsociety, and social justice
issues are really important tous. And when we're banging up
(08:08):
against challenges in thatregard, it can be very
disheartening. It is a trickything as a Māori principal,
because as a principal of aschool, which are crown entities,
I'm representing the government,
Eleisha (08:21):
Mm hmm.
Robin (08:22):
I'm representing the kāwanatanga and the Te Tiriti o
Waitangi relationship. But I'malso tangata whenua,
Eleisha (08:28):
Yeah.
Robin (08:29):
I also have my hapū and iwi connections.And so I'm
deeply committed to Māoriachievement and addressing
equity issues in that space. Butat the same time, I represent
the government.
Eleisha (08:41):
Yeah.
Robin (08:41):
And so sometimes there can be a disconnect at that
level, sometimes there can be adisconnect with those issues at
the community level. And I haveto navigate that space and
recognise that for me as atangata Māori, those things are
deeply personal to me. Those arenot just kind of theoretical
(09:03):
issues. I'm talking about mygrandchildren, my mokopuna,
Eleisha (09:06):
Yeah.
Robin (09:07):
when I'm thinking about equity. And so I need to find
ways to deal with some of thosechallenges. And one of the
things that I've learnt from TeKīngitanga is that sense of,
you know, governments come andgo, we have new ideas come and
go, but tangata whenuatangaendures, and just kind of
(09:30):
changing the perspective helpsto be patient and accepting of
changing times and knowing thatin the long term our aspirations
don't change.
Eleisha (09:39):
Mm hmm. Yeah
Mārama, would you have anythingto add to that?
Mārama (09:44):
Yeah, I had to learn. So in my fourth year
principalship, I became a firsttime mum. So that has been a
huge and it's a change as thedemographics of principals have
changed, there's more of us
Eleisha (10:00):
Mm hmm.
Mārama (10:01):
that have young children now and are principals,
there weren't so many when Ifirst started, learning to
balance that. I was veryfortunate, I had a very
supportive board, I had a cot inmy office, I didn't have to send
my child to daycare 24 seven andI could walk them over to the
neighbouring daycare. But thatthat was a really hard thing.
Eleisha (10:24):
Yeah.
Mārama (10:25):
The mummy guilt along
Eleisha (10:26):
Yeah.
Mārama (10:27):
with principal guilt which sometimes feels like mummy
guilt as well. It really kind ofmingles a little bit there for a
wee while.
But I think looking back andrecognising it's normal you have
to just think well what, whatcan I influence right now? What
am I in control of, what can Ido. And then be kind to yourself.
(10:48):
Sometimes you get a nice payrise as a principal. So we got
cleaner. I got a cleaner once aweek. They did all the sheets
and and once a week I got homeand it just smelt clean and it
made me feel good. So, you know,be kind to yourself.
Eleisha (11:04):
Yeah, definitely. Definitely it is. You know, it
just having that kind of mentalbalance between all of the parts
of you and who you are as aperson. Lesley, what would you
say are the stresses that impactmost on your wellbeing when
you're tumuaki?
Lesley (11:20):
As Robin said, there are, of course many stresses,
Eleisha (11:23):
Mm
Lesley (11:23):
and I'll just mention too, I think the breadth of the
role, or maybe it's the extremesand the spread of the role can
be really stressful
Eleisha (11:32):
hmm.
Lesley (11:32):
that you almost get whiplash sometimes.You know,
one minute you're in your officeworking on your strategic plan
and the next you are a caretakeror cleaner sorting the blocked
toilets. And this is probablymore particularly in smaller
schools. And then once you'vewashed your hands, you might
have to deal with thenotification of child abuse or
suicide ideation, as Robinmentioned, you know, which is
(11:56):
the worst, most painful thing ofall to do. So your time is often
not your own and you have todeal with things that cause a
lot of pain and angst andrequire you to work very, very
carefully.
Eleisha (12:08):
hmm
Lesley (12:08):
So your plans
Eleisha (12:09):
hmm
Lesley (12:09):
for the day can be scuttled in a second and you're
left wondering how on earthyou're ever going to finish the
strategic plan for the boardmeeting on Wednesday? You know,
that's kind of that's aprincipal's life. And I think
another really stressful aspectis the competing and conflicting
priorities that you experienceas a principal on a regular
(12:29):
basis. You know, as a principal,we know that, you know, our
greatest priority is ensuringthat the students in our school
are progressing and that they'resafe and well.
Eleisha (12:39):
hmm hmm
Lesley (12:39):
But, you know, you're also responsible to be a good
employer to your teachers onbehalf of the board and support
their wellbeing. You have legalresponsibilities and
responsibilities to your parentsand community and often these
responsibilities and prioritiesconflict. So when an issue
arises and you work through theoptions, you realise that
there's no one perfect solution.
Eleisha (13:01):
hmm
Lesley (13:01):
Someone in the end is going to be unhappy with the
decision you made. Andprincipals encounter these,
these really difficultsituations frequently and they
can be very stressful. Thetemptation sometimes is to give
in to or prioritise the squeakywheel, you know, the person who
will complain the most,
Eleisha (13:21):
hmm hmm.
Lesley (13:22):
this is the time to get advice from people outside the
situation so that you'resupported to see the multiple
perspectives and helped to cometo the best solution.
Eleisha (13:32):
Yeah, definitely. And is it that that constant juggle
between, you know, of prioritiesand and of the different parts
of you that you need to payattention to that makes
self-care such a challenge fortumuaki?
Lesley (13:45):
I mean, I absolutely think that it is, because you
have to learn to deal withambiguity
Eleisha (13:51):
Yeah.
Lesley (13:52):
and ambiguity is always stressful and ambiguity always
makes you anxious. it's reallyhard to be 100% sure that you've
come to the right decision. Andso I think that that is a that's
a very stressful way to live alife.
Eleisha (14:07):
Yeah. Robin?
Robin (14:09):
You know, I'm reminded of a story that Stephen Covey talks
about in his book around timemanagement, and he uses the
analogy of the jar and puts awhole lot of rocks in and then
says, is there room for more?Yes, you put stones, gravel in
yes, there's room for more, sand,water. And you know, what's the
message? Oh there's always spacefor more. Well, no, if you try
(14:32):
and put the rocks in last, theywon't fit.
Eleisha (14:35):
Yeah,
Robin (14:35):
And the rocks are the important things in our lives.
And self-care is one of thethings that that are our rocks
and to me, self-care is, youknow, attending to our personal
relationships. So making surethat, you know, if we have
families, loved ones, that we'remaking time for those things
(14:56):
because as they say, when we'reon our deathbed, those are the
things that are most importantto us right? But it's also
looking after our health.
Eleisha (15:04):
Yeah.
Robin (15:04):
So, you know what, what are we doing for exercise,
whether that's walking orrunning marathons or,you know,
there's no as Leslie's saying,there's no recipe. There's just
whatever works for you. Eatingwell. And one of the things that
I think is really important interms of self-care is having
someone who you can talk to whenyou've had that emotional
(15:26):
experience
Eleisha (15:27):
Mm hmm.
Robin (15:28):
where you just need someone to listen to you.
Eleisha (15:30):
Yeah
Robin (15:30):
I don't need you to solve this for me, I just need to
share it. Problem shared is aproblem halved and being able to
have someone and and oftenthat's not your your personal or
your strong relationship. Likegoing home and trying to talk
about those things is not alwaysthe best thing to do, but it's
good to have someone whounderstands, who you can just
(15:50):
share, look, I just need you tolisten to me. And that's a
really important part ofself-care.
Eleisha (15:56):
Mārama.
Mārama (15:57):
I think it can be a challenge too, because you feel
guilty like you need to get thestuff done, bu do you need to
get this done? Can it wait tillMonday? It's okay to turn off.
You don't have to feel guilty ifyou've put in your 8 hours and
you're just not ahead you'reprobably not going to have the
right frame of mind to do a goodjob of whatever's on that to do
(16:19):
list right now. Just leave it.Leave it till you've had a rest.
A lot of people don't realisethat actually that cramming
really late when you're tiredand exhausted and hungry is not
your best work. So the bestthing you can do for your school
is to go have a rest and thenyou will be well for everybody
else and for yourself actually,more importantly.
Eleisha (16:40):
Yeah. So what are the what are the dangers that come
with not looking after yourself?Robin.
Robin (16:47):
I think the big one that I'm really conscious of that I
learned was that drinking toomuch alcohol is not a good thing.
Eleisha (16:55):
Yeah.
Robin (16:56):
So I love cooking. So one of my ways of relaxing at the
end of the day is going home andcooking and I would often have a
beer or two, you know, while I'mcooking. And then as time
progressed, I would put a fingeror two of whiskey in my beer, so
I'd have three or four of those,
Eleisha (17:14):
Mm
Robin (17:14):
have dinner, fall asleep on the couch trying to watch the
news, wa up at 11:00 at night,think I'd better go to bed
Eleisha (17:22):
hmm.
Robin (17:22):
and, you know, have a crap sleep. And I might do that
four or five times a week. Andwhile it helped me to kind of
forget about the pressures ofthe day, it actually put me on a
on a spiral
Eleisha (17:35):
Mm hmm.
Robin (17:35):
because I can't give 100% the next day when I'm feeling a
bit dusty from the night before.And so when I realised that this
was a problem for me, I switchedto 0% alcohol so I could still
have a beer while I was cooking.But it wasn't having the impact
of you know, losing the controlthat I needed to, to know when
to stop and also to make surethat my sleeping was um
(18:00):
recreational for me so that I'dstart the next day fresh and I
could give my best to my role.So I think there's a real, you
know, red flag any any kind ofways of coping that involves
substances is is something to beaware of. And also, you know, if
we're using food to kind ofcomfort then, then that's not
(18:21):
the one either because you can,you know, blow up and then not
be healthy either. So I thinkthose are really important
things to be aware of.
Eleisha (18:29):
Definitely, the health implications. Lesley, what would
you add to that about the risksof not looking after yourself?
Lesley (18:36):
Ah similar things, you know, that kind of not being
able to do your job as well asyou could, poor decision making
or, you know, the risk of poordecision making, losing your
ability to be empathetic as
Eleisha (18:51):
Mm
Lesley (18:51):
you know, as you start to spiral down and then having
insufficient energy to engage inthe things that make you happy.
So it becomes this kind ofcontinuous downward spiral
impacting family and otherrelationships. Mental health
issues, of course,
Eleisha (19:07):
hmm.
Lesley (19:08):
burn out and, you know, a myriad of other health risks.
So it's huge.
Eleisha (19:14):
Definitely. Mārama.
Mārama (19:16):
Um, I think too, we talk about burnout and sometimes
there's this false perceptionthat you're not good enough, or
you didn't do do enough or youweren't able to do what you
needed to do and therefore youburned out. And actually all the
research shows that it's thehigh achievers, the clever
people, the people who actuallysay, I can do it better than
(19:37):
this person, and I can do thatbetter than that person, and and
they're holding everythingtogether and they're really,
really good. But actually that'swhat burns people out.
So sometimes if you are a reallyhigh achiever, you need to look
at yourself and actually say, no,no, I this is not how I would do
(20:02):
it, but sometimes you just gotto leave good enough as good
enough.
Eleisha (20:07):
I just wanted to add in here, if you're finding this
discussion triggering, pleasedon't put it off. Please talk to
someone you trust. If you needfurther help, speak with your GP
or if you need to talk tosomeone urgently, please call or
text 1737.
How do you guys when you're inthe tumuaki role? How did you go
(20:28):
about prioritizing your work tomake sure that you did what you
needed to do, but also didn'tstress yourselves out trying to
do it all? Mārama.
Mārama (20:38):
I didn't for a while, to be honest. Everything I've
learned is because I made thewrong decision. I think the very
first thing I needed to do was Iwas terrible at doomscrolling.
I'd get home and doomscroll, andI had to learn to stop it. It's
an addiction. It's terrible. Ihad to put it down and I had to
find something that turned meoff. The first part of managing
(21:01):
time is taking back some of yourown time, I think. And then, I
just always had, like, threethings that I had to get done
that day. Just three things thatI wanted to tick off. I mean, we
had another list of a whole lotof other things that needed to
get done but I only had to makethat chunk done, and it kind of
(21:22):
accounted for when the officelady was away and I had to do
attendance and the kid's leg'sfalling off because he's fallen
out of a tree, you know, allthat stuff. Okay, I've got those
three things and reallycelebrate in myself that I got
that little thing done.
Eleisha (21:36):
Robin, how did you. How did you prioritize?
Robin (21:39):
I'm like Mārama and I have lists
Eleisha (21:41):
Mm hmm.
Robin (21:42):
and it's kind of a never ending list. But, you know, I
get the satisfaction of crossingthings out.
Eleisha (21:48):
Yeah.
Robin (21:48):
And so if I look at my list and think, yes I've crossed
a few things out today, that'sgreat. Oh, yes, I added a few
more,but I don't worry aboutthose. I just focus on I, I
crossed a few things off. Andthe other thing that I recognize
is about tumuaki role is that,you know, there's a certain
satisfaction if, you know, I'mgoal orientated and like to get
things done and you know, by9:00 in the morning on any given
(22:12):
day, there might be a dozenthings that you've already
attended to, problems thatyou've solved, and that can be
quite satisfying. So but it'salso about those things that are
important, and this is Covey'sstuff again, you know, the The
important stuff, that's ourrocks. the urgent but not
important well how
Eleisha (22:30):
Mm
Robin (22:30):
do
Eleisha (22:30):
hmm.
Robin (22:30):
we minimise that stuff? So, you know, sometimes I might
say, okay, well I'm going to putin my calendar 2 hours to work
on my strategic plan and I'mactually going to go home and do
that. So that I do get thatsense of making progress on the,
the important but not urgentstuff as well. So it's a matter
of, you know, getting a balancein that regard.
Eleisha (22:49):
Lesley, you've you've talked about not being the best
role model. How how did youprioritize or did you just try
to do everything?
Lesley (22:56):
I think it's an ongoing journey, but let's just put it
that way. And, you know, at theend of the first term of 2015
quite by chance, I attended asession at a coaching conference
with a psychologist on burnoutand as she discussed the
symptoms of burnout, I wasreally shocked to realise that I
(23:17):
was experiencing many of them.
Eleisha (23:19):
Mm
Lesley (23:20):
By the end of the presentation I realised that I
was right at the very edge ofthe burnout cliff and that if I
didn't do something about it,I'd fall into the abyss.
Eleisha (23:29):
hmm.
Lesley (23:29):
And I had learned that that's not a great place to be
and it takes a long, long timeto recover. And so, you know, as
I reflected, I realised a numberof things. Firstly, I had opened
a new school in 2012 and for thethree terms prior to that and
since then I'd worked huge
Eleisha (23:48):
Mm
Lesley (23:48):
hours every week and through the holidays because
there was just so much to getdone. But I hadn't slowed down.
So three years after opening, Iwas still working those same
ridiculous hours. So the firstthing that I did then was to cut
my working week by 15 hours. Andthe second thing that I realised
(24:10):
was that that second half of2014 had been very difficult for
Eleisha (24:14):
hmm.
Lesley (24:15):
me.I lost two people who were very dear to me,
including my father, and thishappened while we were also
building a new house
Eleisha (24:23):
Oh, my gosh.
Lesley (24:23):
and then all that. And I had, you know, my last two still
at home, my teenage daughters.And in all that busyness, I
realised that I hadn't mournedproperly
Eleisha (24:33):
Mm
Lesley (24:34):
for these people that I loved. So I had to take time to
do that. And I did lots of theother usual things that have
already been mentioned, likeexercise more. I had a couple of
counselling sessions and ofcourse I had my coach to talk to.
But I also made more effort toprioritize doing more of the
things that I love at work. Idid more educational writing and
(24:55):
set up a website to publish iton, and most people wouldn't
think that would help the stress,but for me it does. And I think
that at that point I began aprocess of decentering work and
my life
Eleisha (25:08):
Yeah.
Lesley (25:08):
and giving priority to other aspects of my life outside
work, doing things that I loved,like more like cooking. And as
you've mentioned, Robin,
Eleisha (25:17):
Mm
Lesley (25:18):
you know, entertaining and family get togethers, which
had always been something that Ilove to do, but I'd kind of lost
that and, and all that busynessand this process of the
decentering work has been slowand continuous over the last ten
years. And I just want to stress,you know, that it's been a long,
slow process coming back fromthat cliff edge and actually
(25:39):
that we probably never learn howto deal with stress and, you
know, the guilt and it'ssomething that keeps coming
Eleisha (25:47):
Yeah.
Lesley (25:47):
back and that we just have to continually deal with
and address. And so having thosesupports around us is really
essential to keep reminding us.and I think that in terms of the
kind of near burnout is it wasan accumulation of things, not
just me working too hard, but itwas big things, layering on top
(26:09):
of other big
Eleisha (26:09):
Mm hmm.
Lesley (26:10):
things and know we have to be aware that at some of
those times when thoseadditional difficult things
happen, that we are most at risk.
Eleisha (26:17):
Yeah.
Lesley (26:18):
And also burnout doesn't announce itself in bright neon
lights. And you know, I went tothat conference not really even
realizing that anything wasparticularly wrong. I mean, I
was aware that I'd kind of lostmy joy,
Eleisha (26:32):
Mm hmm.
Lesley (26:32):
you know? So I think, you know, again, we need to keep
growing our self awareness andregularly take time to stop,
look and listen, to see howthings are impacting on us.
Eleisha (26:42):
Yeah. And what about you, Robin? When it came to
managing your your life astumuaki you know, and as you all
keep alluding to there'sdifferent parts of you, you're
not just a principal, you're afamily member, you're a parent,
you're a friend, you're often amentor for other people. And so
how did you manage everythingthat came with being a tumuaki?
Robin (27:04):
I've just been reflecting I think one of the things that's
really important is delegation.You know, it's a real trap to
fall into that, I'm the best onewho can do everything because I
have the standards and oh justleave it to me. I'll do it. And
you can't do everything. You'vegot to have people who you grow
(27:24):
into taking leadership invarious areas and, you know,
whether that's somebody whosteps into that role of looking
after property and just keepingyou informed or because, you
know, you can't keep all theballs in the air yourself,
you've got to have some peoplestanding beside you doing some
of the juggling, too. And italso reminds me of that saying,
(27:46):
you know, people say it's lonelyat the top. And I would
challenge that. I would say thatif if you're lonely at the top,
then that's that's a choice. Wedon't have to be lonely.
Eleisha (27:55):
Mm hmm.
Robin (27:56):
And if we reach out and we've got mentors and we've got
personal relationships that havenothing to do with school to
sustain us then we don't have tobe lonely, I think that's a
really important distinction tomake.
Eleisha (28:09):
Mm
Robin (28:09):
It can be a heavy responsibility being at the top,
but there's no doubt about that.But you don't have to shoulder
it alone. I think that's reallyimportant. so having strategies
to manage the load at school isimportant. But to come back to,
you know, how do you manage thatbalance of personal life? I You
know, I've got childhood friendswho I went to school with who
(28:29):
are my best mates who know meand understand me, and I make
time to ring them on the phoneevery week. And from time to
time we'll get together andthose are important sustaining
relationships for me. Family'simportant. So making sure that
we've got time for family. I didsome, I guess, personality
(28:49):
analysis stuff and one of my topvalues is connection. And so
it's attending to how do I makesure that I'm feeling connected
to the people who are importantto me. So feeding off what
Lesley's saying, it'sself-awareness, self-reflection,and
thinking about, okay, what do Ineed to do to look after myself?
Know thyself, huh?
Eleisha (29:10):
Definitely. Mārama?
Mārama (29:12):
So speaking about loneliness, that really hits
something there Robin. I've beenworking as a leadership advise
for 13 months now, and I've beenworking as a mentor principal
for beginning principals aboutsix years and it's the the
principals that reach out earlyand ask questions and have a
(29:32):
network are the ones that dowell. As soon as principals
start dropping off, and we don'thear back from them from emails,
and we don't see them atassociation meetings, that's
when we generally can tellsomething's going wrong. A the
thing is, and I have to keepsaying, don't say sorry, they
always say sorry can I ask you aquestion? Don't say sorry,
(29:53):
because this is a burden wherewe can all share together. I st..
I am still friends with theprincipals in my first time
principals cohort. I have onefriend who is an ultra-nerd and
will read every single researchreport into pedagogy and
leadership with Post-it notes,and I will ring and say bro, I
(30:15):
can't read this, is this good?And he'll say Yes. And then
he'll ring me and have all thetechnology questions like, what
should I buy? So, you know,create, make your hive
Eleisha (30:24):
Yeah
Mārama (30:24):
mind, and the Ministry as well. They want you to reach
out as soon as you think, ooh, Idon't know. Because if we can
help you and support you to findan answer early, then you know
it's solved early. We're notgoing to growl you or whatever,
but we'd rather get in early andgive you the support you need to
(30:44):
be the best that you can be.
Eleisha (30:46):
Totally. And what, more formal supports are there to to
help principal wellbeing?
Robin (30:52):
O, there's beginning principal programmes or tumuaki
hau programmes
Eleisha (30:55):
Mm hmm.
Robin (30:57):
to support with mentorship. So those programmes
involve, you know, onlinelearning and group learning and,
and wānanga together and alsovisits from an experienced
principal to provide support. AsMārama has said, the Ministry
of Education actually exists tosupport schools to be successful
(31:18):
for, for our tamariki and thereare a lot of committed people in
the Ministry working in the areaof property and in finance and
leadership who can give supportwith some of those questions
where people don't understand.I'm really was grateful for
having an accounting firm whoprovided guidance. And, you know,
(31:39):
our accountant I would meet withon a regular basis and talk
through the budget and how we'reprogressing. And that just gave
me confidence when he said to me,yep, you're in a good position
and these are the reasons why.And it was really important for
me to hear that from an expert,to know that I was on the right
track. You know, there's legalsupport for people who are
(32:01):
members of the SPANZ network.You know, there are lawyers that
they offer to for support withvarious issues. There's the
school board association andthey're great with that HR
advice and governance support.So there really is, you know, a
lot of options in that regard.
Mārama (32:22):
i would just add to that don't forget the unions and
the work they put into yourcontract. Your contract is there
and in the contract that seesthat your board is responsible
for helping you to be well. Sogetting to know your contract
really well, getting thatsupport from NZEI or PPTA or
whoever and just helping you allto understand that you are
(32:44):
allowed to turn off your phone.Creating those boundaries and
you're and you're backed up by acontract.
Eleisha (32:50):
I'd like to ask each of you what you do for your own
wellbeing. A number ofprincipals I've spoken to do a
couple of hours teaching a weekbecause, you know, it helps fill
their bucket. What kinds ofthings did you do for yourselves
when you were tumuaki to makesure you did have something for
yourself Mārama?
Mārama (33:11):
At school, my favourite part of the day are the kids.So
every morning I visited everyclass. I'd just pop in and say,
hi,tell a bad joke, whenever Iwas like, oh I can't deal with
this computer anymore I'd go andannoy the five year olds. Yeah,
they are hilarious. At home I umlearnt a new sport I I could not
(33:33):
think about anything other thanthat sport and the biggest
actually thing that has improvedmy wellbeing is for seven years
my kids went to school with meand then I sent them to a
different school and I couldjust be their mum and that was
life changing and I love justbeing their mum. For a while I
(33:54):
was like, oh gosh, do I look badthat I sent my kids to another
school? Well actually, it's forthe selfish reasons I want to
spoil them rotten and I justwant to do what all the other
parents do and that was a hugefor me and I love just swanning
in and being a mum and being aparent help. Yeah. So
Eleisha (34:11):
It's
Mārama (34:11):
yeah,
Eleisha (34:11):
awesome.
Mārama (34:12):
life balance.
Eleisha (34:13):
Yeah. Open.
Robin (34:15):
So for my own wellbeing, you know, I try and do 10,000
steps a day. So that means, youknow, I probably walking the dog
or so I enjoy doing that and mydarling enjoys walking the dog
with me and she does a lot oftalking, I do a lot of listening
at that time. So it's a it's a,you know, connection time for us.
(34:36):
But I also like doing waka ama,beautiful to be
Eleisha (34:39):
Yeah.
Robin (34:39):
on the water and just get into that meditative space. I
like swimming. I Also play videogames. So, you know, I play
Fortnite on on the
Eleisha (34:47):
He.
Robin (34:47):
X-Box and that's a great relaxant for me. The other thing
I think that's really importantis getting enough sleep. So,
Eleisha (34:55):
Yeah.
Robin (34:56):
you know, going to bed early rather than, you know,
watching too much TV and justwasting time in the evening.
Yeah, those are those are thingsthat are important to me as well
as, you know, organising time tobe with the kids. And my son has
been coming swimming with merecently, so I really enjoy that.
So I get a hit for familyconnection as well as, you know,
(35:16):
health and wellbeing
Eleisha (35:17):
Awesome. What about you, Leslie?
Lesley (35:20):
Definitely standing on the sidelines while my kids
played sports. You know, everyweekend we were, you know,
traveling or doing sportingthings and that kind of forced
me away from the workenvironment and I just really
loved watching them, still do. Ithink, always learning,
(35:41):
continuous learning is reallyimportant to me. I always have
multiple books on the go and,and I think, you know, assisting
other people in their growth anddevelopment, I find really
refreshing and rejuvenating. AsI've already talked about
writing
Eleisha (35:58):
Yeah.
Lesley (35:58):
and kind of thinking about education and walking and
cycling, Yeah, so just a wholerange of things.
Eleisha (36:07):
So what's your best advice for new tumuaki about
looking after themselves?Mārama, maybe I'll start with
you again.
Mārama (36:15):
Form your tribe, find your people, find your
connections, find who you trustand connect with them. Maybe a
couple of beginning principalsso you can share experience.
Yeah, create that tribe ofpeople that you can connect with
throughout the day, throughoutthe week and that keep you real.
Eleisha (36:33):
Robin.
Robin (36:34):
My best advice would be to be patient, patient with
yourself as a new principal andunderstand that it is a huge job
and is there'll be a lot ofthings that new principals don't
know, they haven't hadexperience with. So it is a big
learning curve and be patientwith yourself on the learning
curve just as we would, you know,any ākonga in our school, we'd
(36:56):
be patient with them as theylearn and, you know, develop
their expertise and make surewe've got supports to help with
with that learning process.
Eleisha (37:07):
Yeah Lesley?
Lesley (37:09):
I think one of the things is, you know, over time
building that right leadershipteam around you
Eleisha (37:15):
Mm
Lesley (37:15):
so that you can then shape your role and enable them
to shape theirs. And for me thissometimes meant, you know going
back into the classroom andteaching for a term which I
always really loved. I think inthe way that I've been a
principal, I've had to bewilling to kind of step outside
of how people perceive the roleof a principal, because I have
(37:37):
some kind of different needs.And
Eleisha (37:40):
hmm.
Lesley (37:41):
and this wasn't always easy and it drew criticism at
times, especially sometimes fromother principals. But, you know,
for me, deep cognitiveengagement with educational
ideas was like breathing,
Eleisha (37:53):
Yeah.
Lesley (37:54):
which is why I did a doctorate while I was a first
time principal.
Eleisha (37:57):
Oh, my gosh.
Lesley (37:59):
So.So I think my best advice is when all is said and
done, be yourself.
Eleisha (38:06):
Yeah.
Lesley (38:06):
Do you as a principal, you know, that's the best way to
safeguard your wellbeing andthat might look different from
other people.
Eleisha (38:14):
Brilliant advice. I've come to the end of my questions.
Is there anything that youwanted to add that we haven't
covered?
Mārama (38:21):
I would use your beginning principal status. Like
use it, it's an asset. When youdon't know, ring and say, I'm a
beginning principal, I have noidea. Honestly, use it, it's an
asset, you get away with it fora good two and a half years. So
just make it part of yourarsenal
Eleisha (38:39):
You're not the first person who said that people
forgive you when you're a firsttime principal because you don't
have to know everything. Andit's perfectly okay to say. Yeah,
Robin (38:49):
Eleisha the other thing I'd add is that, you know, after
five years in the roleprincipals qualify for a
sabbatical, secondary for a term.I'm not sure about primary or
area schools. Sometimes they canbe a bit longer, but it's good
to be thinking about that inyour fourth year so that you do
actually take it. I was in myfinal year, ninth year before I
(39:11):
actually took my sabbatical andI think it would have helped me
if I'd been able to take it abit earlier. So I think it's
important to have some time outto do those things that are, you
know, recreate ourselves,whether that's, you know,
reading and writing or just timeaway or visiting other schools
or other countries to get anidea of what's available. But
(39:34):
plan to take that.
Eleisha (39:35):
Lesley, could you have done your doctorate in that
sabbatical time?
Lesley (39:39):
I did have a sabbatical. I did it the wrong time of my
doctorate. I did it early. Ishould have done it when I was
actually at that horrificwriting stage. No, I love the
writing, but it's is brutal.
Eleisha (39:52):
Yeah.
Lesley (39:53):
So I think also, you know, just want something I want
to add. As you know, thosepeople that you gather around
them, you don't want yes people,you know, my my two coaches and
mentors that I mentioned, theycould be brutal with me in
calling me out about things. And
Eleisha (40:10):
hmm.
Lesley (40:10):
I think we really need that. We don't need someone just
to keep saying it's okay. Youknow, but they need to say
actually Lesley get real.
Eleisha (40:17):
Yeah.
Lesley (40:18):
And yeah, so I think that's very important that we
choose people who will challengeus. So it's not just support,
but it's support and challenge.
Eleisha (40:27):
definitely
Robin (40:28):
Also that whole space of, social media and keeping
ourselves private and our publicprofile, is I had a Facebook
profile which I never sharedwith any students or many staff
members to be fair. And Icreated a separate one called
Matua Robin, which I used forconnecting with the school
(40:49):
community just to have that thatsense of space and looking after
myself in that regard. I livedin the community that I worked
in and I was really comfortablewith that. It was nice to bump
into people at Pak'n'Save and dosome pastoral, you know, problem
solving there. But it isimportant, particularly in that
(41:10):
social media space, to giveyourself, I think, a bit of
privacy and manage, you know,how we're we're interacting with
our communities.
Eleisha (41:19):
Yeah, for sure.
Mārama (41:20):
Yeah, I think too that's really important. But the
flipside too, I've been able totalk to lots of really worried
parents to say, hey, my my kidscreamed on his first day of
school and didn't want to let mego. And I work in the office
over there like, this is normal.Yeah, all this crazy stuff your
kid's doing it's normal. I'veexperienced it and it'll be okay.
So yeah, giving them your humanface because sometimes they
(41:43):
forget that you're human and amum and a person. And that's
really important. You keepreminding them that, yeah, I'm
doing my very best, but I'm justme and that's okay.
Eleisha (41:55):
I love that. I'm just me, and that's okay. Totally.
Totally. Hey thank you all forbeing so open today and for
sharing your knowledge and yourexperiences.
Lesley (42:06):
Thanks.
Eleisha (42:07):
Thank
Interview (42:07):
Ka
Eleisha (42:07):
you.
Interview (42:08):
kite.
Eleisha (42:09):
In upcoming episodes, we're going to be talking about
looking after learning. See younext time.
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