February 3, 2025 • 28 mins
New Zealand's education system has under-served Māori learners for a long time. As a result, the 97% of Māori learners in English-medium settings collectively experience worse education outcomes than other learners and are less engaged in the education system.
Today we’re going to talk to three principals who have worked to turn around learning and achievement for Māori ākonga in their English-medium schools.
My guests are:
- Tom Paekau, principal of Merivale School in Tauranga
- Bruce Jepsen, manukura of Te Akatea - Māori Principals
- Ngahina Transom, tumuaki of Frimley School in Hastings
This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education as part of Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals.
You can learn more about this topic by accessing Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals e-learning modules on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz
Show notes
Episode themes:
- Contributors to poor learning outcomes in a school
- Dealing with kaiako who engage in deficit theorising
- Role of tumuaki as rangatira in leading the journey of improvement
- Utilising the Ka Hikitea - Ka Hāpaitia (Māori education strategy) frameworks to help support and guide you through the policy around Māori experiencing success as Māori.
- Approaches to learning, teaching and PLD used to support Māori experiencing success as Māori.
Additional information
Ka Hikitea – Ka Hāpaitia Māori education strategy https://www.education.govt.nz/our-work/overall-strategies-and-policies/ka-hikitia-ka-hapaitia
Te Akatea Māori Principals https://www.teakatea.co.nz/
Questions
2:21 [All] What do you think contributes to poor learning outcomes in a school?
5:38 [All] Have you worked with kaiako who do engage in deficit theorizing? And if so, how did you turn them around?
10:58 [Tom] What did people tell you about Merivale School before you started at the kura?
13:17 [Tom] What kinds of changes did you make that had such a massive impact?
15:03 [Bruce] How did you turn around your kura, what did you focus on?
16:57 [Bruce] What practical steps did you take to improve the way your ākonga were learning?
18:54 [Ngahina] Can you tell me about your part in turning around Frimley School?
24:32 [Ngahina] What professional learning and development do your kaiako do?
27:09 [Tom] Do you take a similar approach to PLD for your kaiako in your kura?
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eleisha (00:07):
Kia ora and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new tumuaki in Aotearoa NewZealand. I'm Eleisha McNeill.
New Zealand's education systemhas under served Māori learners
for a long time and as a result,Māori learners in English
medium settings collectivelyexperience worse education
outcomes than other learners andare less engaged in the
(00:28):
education system. Today we'regoing to talk to three Māori
tumuaki who have worked to turnaround learning and achievement
for Māori in their Englishmedium schools. A reminder that
you can find more about thistopic and others in the
e-learning modules and you'llfind a link to those in the show
notes. Here are my guests.
Bruce (00:46):
Mauri ora ko Tongariro tōku maunga, ko Rangitikei
tōku awa, ko Ngāti Tūwharetoarātou ko Tainui, Raukawa ōku
iwi, ko Bruce Jepsen ahau. BruceJepsen, I'm the CEO of Te Akatea
and good to see my esteemedcolleagues and to be with them
have a kōrero with you alltoday.
Ngahina (01:05):
Kia ora. Tēnā anō tātou. Ngā mihi ki a koutou i
tēnei wā. Kia kōrua rā, engā tuakana, ngā tūngane,
ngā mihi o te rā ki a kōrua.Ko wai au? He uri tēnei nō te
waka o Tainui, nōNgātokimatawhaorua hoki. Um, me
(01:27):
te rohe o Mōkai Pātea.
Ko Ngāti Maniapoto tōku iwi,ko Ngāti Putaitemuri te hapū.
Um, i tipu ake au kei te pito otaku ao. Ko kei te rohe o Mōkai
Pātea ā ko Taihape engari keite noho au kei Ahuriri ināianei,
(01:48):
ko au te Tumuaki o Te Kura oFrimley kei Heretaunga, kia ora.
Tom (01:53):
Ngā mihi, ngā mihi koutou, ko Tainui te waka, ko Pirongia
te maunga, ko Waipā te awa, koNgāti Maniapoto te iwi. Ko Tom
Paekau ahau. Kia ora guys, Yep,Tom Paekau, principal of Te Kura
o Tūtarawānanga MerivaleSchool in Tauranga. Yeah, yeah.
(02:16):
Great to be back again and beingpart of the forum. Awesome, nga
mihi.
Eleisha (02:21):
Kia ora, thank you. I wanted to start by asking all of
you, what do you thinkcontributes to poor learning
outcomes in a school?
Bruce (02:30):
That's a big question, there's a whole range of things
that could equate to poorlearning outcomes in a kura.
Absolutely there's a belief thatall tamariki, if provided the
right conditions and surroundedby the right people can can
achieve great things. AndPoverty plays a big part in this
country in terms of it'scolour-blind. Those people that
(02:50):
are struggling to provide thesorts of conditions and the
resources and the, yo know, theclothing, the food, all of those
sorts of things all come into apoverty line. And if you're
below it, then good leadership,it requires you to do what you
need to do. So that's all andsundry. It's everything. I sort
(03:11):
of focus on, on the other wayaround. So the things that do
make a positive difference.Positionality is really
important and I suppose onething as Māori that we do not
do, and that's not to deficittheorise, So I've gone around
looking at the things that domake a difference as a means and
a ways of addressing anythingthat might be sitting in a place
(03:31):
that you want to causeimprovement or you've identified
an area where there's need fordevelopment or potential
improvement. So I suppose myanswer to to that question about
what causes poor outcomes, welldeficit theorizing causes poor
outcomes.
Eleisha (03:48):
Ngahina.
Ngahina (03:49):
Āe, through our te ao Māori lens and us being who we
are, we never look at things ina deficit way. We always look at
things positively andoptimistically. I'm just going
to use the kupu that are in KaHikitia, which is totally around
flipping that theorizing touplift, Hāpaitia what we do in
(04:12):
kura in a positive way. If Ijust use our analogy of Te Pō,
Te Kore, Te Mārama and even inthose dimensions of that
framework, we are always problemsolving, looking for solutions
in order to move forward to TeAo Mārama and in that place of
Te Pō, the English kupu or thetranslation of that is in the
(04:33):
realm of darkness, t still lotsof potential and opportunity. So
we never look at things in adeficit way. We always look at
things positively andoptimistically. Kia ora.
Eleisha (04:46):
Kia ora. Tom.
Tom (04:48):
Yeah, just, just want to to tautoko what Ngahina and
Bruce have both said. I thinkthe the whole idea is to be
solution focused. And when we'resolution focused, you know,
things aren't problems and we'renot coming from that sort of
deficit model of kids missingout and that sort of thing. And
(05:10):
I kind of think about when Ifirst came to my kura the things
that were good that were inplace, but there was some stuff
that wasn't and it was makingsure that the solutions to those
were, stayed front and center.And we tackled those as they
came. And so, yeah, yeah, justas the other two have said, just,
you know, having that positiveoutlook and perspective on on
(05:34):
wanting to attain the best forour, for our tamariki.
Eleisha (05:37):
I love that. Out of interest, have you worked with
kaiako who do engage in deficittheorizing? And if so, how did
you turn them around?
Bruce (05:47):
Yeah, just stop it now, it doesn't work and yeah, cut it
out. Like we could, you couldget all soft and namby pamby
around it and beat around thebush. But in actual fact it's
well researched that deficittheorizing just perpetuates the
very issue that we're talkingabout so I mean if you have time
to unpack and and get around allthose sorts of things I mean it
(06:08):
is about supporting our staff tohave better outcome, you know,
to understand these things. Sohopefully you're a fast learner
because we got a short amount oftime with these tamariki to
learn so we want to get togiving them the best quality
education as possible. And and Ithink there's a place in
embedding those, that sort oflearning in ITE. But I want I
want teachers coming with thatknowledge.
Eleisha (06:29):
Yeah
Bruce (06:30):
I want teachers prepared and well trained and well versed
in that, I mean, for for alllearners. So yeah, I tend to
employ people that alreadyunderstand that.
Ngahina (06:39):
I think just to add on to that, it's always about aro
ki te kaupapa. So remaining ponoto the vision and the focus.
It's always an holistic approach,so when we're thinking about the
whānau and the tamariki, we'relooking at it as a package. So
we don't itemize and say thatwhānau or that child doesn't
have kai so that's what we'regoing to address. We we create
(06:59):
the environment, which is ourkura, to be a place where the
tamariki and whānau have a realsense of belonging and empower
them to be able to contribute tothat, ahakoa, whatever that
contribution is. And then justcoming back to that focus on our
strategic thinking in our kuraand what that is. And I'm just
(07:19):
going to add on to what Brucehas said is the real urgency,
and I'm going to go back to KaHikitia is we can't wait around
round any longer. The system hasnot provided for us as Māori
learners or for learners inAotearoa for so long. So we
can't stand around and wait anylonger. We need to get on and
(07:42):
get the mahi done. So in ourkura, if a kaiako has bought
into the kaupapa right from thestart that says these are the
non-negotiables, this is thekaupapa, this is what we do,
this is what the deliberate actsof teaching and learning will
look like for you as a kaiako inour kura, kei a koe. So you
accept that or you don't. But westay clear and pono to that so
(08:04):
that we can all move forwardtogether.
Eleisha (08:07):
Totally. Tom, is that your approach as well?
Tom (08:09):
Yeah. Yeah, tautoko what the other two have said as well.
It's kind of like, well, ifyou're not going to be part of
the the answer, then you're partof the problem. So and just
being honest, like, if you'renot going to help try and fix
the problem and just going toplay the blame game the whole
(08:30):
time,
Eleisha (08:30):
Hmm.
Bruce (08:31):
nah, then possibly the place where you want to be is
not where we want to be sort ofthing. So yeah, again, being
positive about it. You do you,if you if you want to do you,
it's fine. It's just probablywon't be in the place that we
are. We're trying to dosomething different.
Ngahina (08:48):
So I guess this comes on to the leadership too, eh. So
like how are you being therangatira of that. Trust me.
Come with me. Take my hand andcome with me. Come with us.
Trust this process. Like Brucehas already said there's huge
amounts of research that saysthis has not been successful for
us. I'm one of those, myeducation at primary was not the
(09:10):
best being Māori, but trust.Trust as the leader that we
we're going to achieve thistogether. We'll learn along the
way, we'll we'll be able tocelebrate. There's going to be
ebbs, there's going to be highsand lows all along the way,
which is anything to do withlearning. And I think that's a
key - as a leader, once we'vegot the trust and the buy-in we
(09:32):
have to be vulnerable too asleaders and show our
vulnerability and say, well,we're all learning together, be
transparent about what ourvulnerability is in the learning
of this process. But for thekaiako, it's really, truly
getting them to buy in to andbelieving in what we're doing is
going to make a difference.
Bruce (09:53):
Couple of really important points in there, that
where Ngahina has talked aboutKa Hikitia, and Hāpaitia and
for the listeners are specificreferences to the policy around
Māori experiencing success asMāori, and there's a framework
that can help support and guideyou through these things. So
it's not guesswork, it's likerefer to the policy. So there's
(10:16):
a there's an obligation andexpectation that these are the
ways that we're going to workwith things. And to address the
inequities, that extends wellbeyond the classroom. And it
often, schools then have toprovide that holistic support
recognising those broaderchallenges we were mentioning.
And those broader challengescould be in the way of pastoral
(10:37):
care. Sometimes it could be todo with things in the health
services. It can be thepractical things around food or
clothing, but they are thethings that are required in this
day and age, that form a part ofthe systemic reform and policy
advocacy required.
Eleisha (10:57):
Hmm. So, Tom, we've talked a little bit in a
previous interview about yourcurrent kura and the way it was
when when you first came in. AndI was reading a couple of
articles where you talked aboutthe community that your kura is
in and also what people in yourcommunity said to you before you
started there. What did theytell you about the kura before
(11:18):
you started?
Tom (11:19):
Yeah, um, sort of still hitting on the same sorts of
things that we're talking aboutregarding that deficit model of
thinking. So yeah, I was toldpretty much wasting my time
going over that side, oh that'sgoing to be that's going to be a
rough school. You know, theydon't have any any discipline in,
in the area, there's multitudesof social factors that are
(11:43):
impacting on on it being, youknow, a low socio economic area,
all those all those types ofthings. So the focus had to come
from really the board and whatwe wanted to achieve as a board
first. We were wanting to createa space that was first of all,
safe for our tamariki and thenalso the expectations of
(12:07):
achievement were raised becausea classic example is an ex
member of Parliament holding aluncheon and saying we think
about schools like MerivaleSchool, ah, we're never going to
have any doctors, or lawyerscome out of there.
Eleisha (12:23):
Wow.
Tom (12:23):
So that was actually um relayed to me from a member of
staff who attended, who wasactually invited to attend. So
got in touch with my GATEteacher, uh gifted and talented
teacher who created a forum forthe students to investigate,
particularly students that havegone on and done further things
(12:43):
that were part of MerivaleSchool. So we found an
astrophysicist operating out ofColorado, we've got celebrities
and actors and so forth. So justcreating that platform so, you
know, we could communicate andsay, well actually we do make
doctors and lawyers here at thisschool. So, you know,
Eleisha (13:02):
Yeah.
Tom (13:02):
and that was you know, that was just one example of a
lot of dialogue that often cameout. And at times still comes
out around here but we've gotammunition to back up that none
of that is true now. So kei tepai.
Eleisha (13:17):
Yeah, definitely. I mean, you had a really clear
vision of what you wanted to doand where you wanted the school
to go, what you wanted yourākonga to be able to achieve
and how you wanted them to learn.So you, you mentioned there that
you worked with this with theschool board on that shared
vision. What kind of changes didyou make that had such a massive
impact?
Tom (13:38):
Getting kids to school. That was that was the number one
focus. So we knew that if kidswere going to be late to school,
nine times out of ten, theyweren't going to come to school.
So we changed, staggered ourstart time. So we now start at 9:
20. And just from that smallstep, we got a 50% increase in
attendance. So
Eleisha (13:59):
Wow
Tom (14:00):
which was huge. So just small examples of that Eleisha.
I mean, we're not the only kurathat does things to mitigate
problems, but that was one ofour own examples that we were
really proud of. And yeah, we'reactually leading our West
cluster at the moment inattendance, which is great.
Eleisha (14:17):
Yeah, that's awesome. And Bruce, you had a massive
impact on student achievement,too.
Bruce (14:22):
I like these success stories. And I think, Tommy's so
humble, way more humble than me.Ngahina touched on leadership
earlier. And one thing that Iknow with these two people is
that what they bring, they bringMāori value to the fore,
Eleisha (14:36):
Yeah.
Bruce (14:37):
they bring it to practice, they bring it to policy, they
bring it to curricula, theybreak down institutional
barriers, they have relationshipwith whānau, hapū and iwi and
they, they prioritize thesethings and it comes right to the
front. They do it holistically.And so like they might talk
about attendance, but when Tomtalks about attendance,
attendance is one thing but butthere's a whole range of factors
(14:58):
that require attendance to occur.So awesome work Tommy.
Eleisha (15:03):
Yeah. And I'd love to hear how you, you know, what did
you do with your kura? How didyou turn it around?
Bruce (15:09):
It's like 20 years ago! So
Eleisha (15:10):
Yeah.
Bruce (15:11):
know, I know, I know I've learnt a few things along the
way. So In all the work we didand I say we because it's a
collective what what constitutesa community. The role of whānau
and hapū and iwi in theeducational leadership, the
positionality of that, the powersharing of that to have an
authentic rather than atokenistic, superficial type of
(15:34):
relationship so that I listenedto people. And when we had a hui
with whānau, if 40% of our kurawere Māori, then I wanted 40%
of those Māori whānau at thosehui. If we didn't, then my
expectations were not goodenough and if I was making
assumptions about what was bestfor for all tamariki, then well
(15:54):
we'd fall short if we weren'tconsulting and working really
hard to do that. So try whateverapproach we could to have
conversations in whichever way,preferably face to face, but not
always able. So whatever way tokōrero with our whānau. So to
have an authentic partnershipwith our Māori community or
(16:14):
with community, that's essentialif we're going to achieve equity
because we're trying tounderstand what the needs are of
our whānau and then we'retrying to act on that. The
community knew what was best forthe community. So listening,
extracting and then making senseof what people were saying and
bringing that together in acohesive sort of way that was
(16:37):
coherent,
Eleisha (16:38):
Mm hmm.
Bruce (16:38):
and then following up and having action related to our
findings. So one thing aboutlistening, more importantly that
you do something with it
Eleisha (16:47):
Yeah.
Bruce (16:47):
and when you do something with it, that it's done in
relationship with a power share,
Eleisha (16:52):
Mm hmm.
Bruce (16:52):
people can see and hear the very ideas that they shared
enacted.
Eleisha (16:57):
So in terms of of, like, practical steps that you took
for your ākonga, how did howdid you change the way that they
were learning to improve it?
Bruce (17:06):
Yeah, well, I think there was a definite focus on identity,
culture, and reo just straightoff the bat, which weren't high
priorities. The things that wedid, had a focus in ensuring
that everyone had a sense ofbelonging based on teaching -
learning pedagogy. It was justreally fundamental, form a
relationship and know yourtamariki and when you know your
tamariki then applying thatholistic approach, what are the
(17:28):
things that really providepeople with that hunger and
appetite to learn? What are thethings that make children want
to come to school? And similarlyfor whānau, what makes them
want to be there and feel a partof it?
Eleisha (17:41):
Mm hmm.
Bruce (17:42):
All those sorts of things. So you could go on about one of
those things because they're allhuge pieces of work. They
involve a whole range ofdifferent practices and pedagogy
and also evidence base. So isthat there is enough evidence in
this country though, all leaders,if they wanted to find out, you
could refer to policy aboutMāori succeeding as Māori. And
(18:04):
if you follow those steps to getyourself on the right track, if
you make every effort to form arelationship with your own hapū
or iwi in your rohe, or try toconnect. And that's part of the
role too, it's too easy to say,oh, I don't know how, well then
what do you do when you don'tknow how? And that's not for me
to answer how far will you go toallow for that learning to occur...
(18:26):
so?
Ngahina (18:27):
Yeah, a lot of tumuaki I know, I've been in hui and
I've been facilitating and I'vebeen a listener where they say
it's too hard, how do we do that?First and foremost, your whānau
are iwi. Your tamariki are iwi.So not only kaiako, but, but as
a leader you need to understandand know who, who the tamariki
(18:48):
are, who the whānau are in yourkura to be able to navigate that
pathway forward.
Eleisha (18:53):
Yeah, for sure. And Ngahina, you've been involved in
some amazing work. Can you tellme a little bit about place
based learning and your part inmaking the kura, you know, an
even more amazing place to be.
Ngahina (19:06):
Ka pai, it totally links to my two brothers here
and what they've talked aboutalready. But I'm just going to
elevate it back to the strategicdirection and what we do. So as
a board, they are truly andtotally committed to enacting
and giving effect to Te Tiriti oWaitangi. So what that looks
like is ensuring that we haveproductive partnerships and our
(19:29):
iwi, hapū and whānau are atthe table of all decision making.
They are not further down thelist of when we need to go to
the marae that we we get thatinvolvement. That is all part of
the decision, the decisionmaking. So I guess that's just
I'm just going to tautoko whatBruce said about that. So one of
(19:51):
the big kaupapa that wasfundamental to our Ngā Ara
Mātauranga, which is thepathway of learning, the pathway
of knowledge based on four keycomponents of Ngāti Kahungunu
ki Heretaunga and the fourcomponents are around the waka
Kahungunu, the tangata, one ofawa Ngaruroro, and Kahurānaki
(20:13):
the maunga, so 'whatungarongarote tangata, toitū te whenua',
so none of those will move orfalter or waver. But if we embed
a rich curriculum based on thosefour components, our tamariki
will be better placed to besuccessful contributors not only
to Aotearoa but beyond andglobal. So our Ngā Ara
(20:37):
Mātauranga is based on that andthat is really fundamental to
our relationships that we havewith our iwi, Ngāti Kahungunu
ki Heretaunga, with our hapūand our marae. The other kaupapa
and component of that is thatour board fully support and
tautoko that, so it is expectedthat every term all of our
tamariki and there are 570 ofthem experience, they smell they
(21:01):
touch they breathe in the air ofNgāti Kahungunu ki Heretaunga
and they are taken to places ofspecial importance, that
illustrate and talk about ourpūrākau of the whenua here. So
it's an expectation that theyare put on the bus and taken to
wherever that is, whatever thekaupapa is that's that's what
(21:23):
will happen. Learning at themarae is normal. So we go to
Houngarea in Pakipaki and we sitin the whare and we listen. We
take our rangatira there everyterm. So our tamariki experience,
experience that. I'm just goingto go back to the data that we
collect and collate. So we'vegot eight years of data, we
(21:46):
collect data every year that isa 360 voice from our whānau,
our kaiako, and our tamarikithat ask about kaiako
relationships. So what happensat the beginning of the survey?
Whānau and tamariki put intheir ethnicity. So then the
question will pop up and say,for you being Māori at Frimley
School, what does that soundlike? What does what do you hear?
(22:08):
How do you feel? How do yourkaiako interact with you? If you
are Pasifika and you are Samoanthat will pop up and that
question will come up. So forSamoan whānau, that question
will say, what does it feel likefor you being in the kura to be
Samoan? How is your language,your culture and identity
reflected within learning? Howdo kaiako respond to your
(22:30):
tamariki in their place oflearning. The Wellbeing Survey
talks about the components ofracism, so we've collected that
data now for three years. Ittalks about our tamariki being
in the community, being in thekura. So those are two real key
elements of our decision makingwhen we're setting our targets,
(22:53):
yes, we set targets aroundliteracy and numeracy, but that
is not everything, those two keydata portals or that information
really gives us our grounding toensure one, that our Ngā Ara
Mātauranga is being experiencedand delivered, and two that our
whānau are feeling empoweredand have a voice to have their
(23:15):
say. Yes, we have our whānaulearning celebrations where they
come in and the tamariki talkabout what's happening, but this
is a real opportunity for themat the end of every year to talk
about what is really importantin kura and how do you feel as a
whānau to be a part of our kura.Mana whenua is really, really
important in ensuring that that
Eleisha (23:37):
hmm hmm
Ngahina (23:37):
once again back at the strategic level that is woven
through, it's transparent, andit's a part of every decision
that is made for the impact andthe success of the tamariki here
in our kura, which aligns withthe Iwi aspirations is that our
(24:01):
people are thriving and andbeing successful. Who has the
measuring stick of that? Eachwhānau has the measuring stick
of that. Iwi has the measuringstick of that. So we ensure that
it's aligned with theaspirations of iwi. That is our
curriculum and that is how wedeliver. And all of our pedagogy
(24:22):
is based on culturallyresponsive pedagogies making
sure that our kaiako are,delivering deliberate acts of
teaching and learning throughthat lens.
Eleisha (24:32):
Mm hmm. And how, you know, professional learning and
development for the kaiako. Whatkinds of things do do they do
they go through?
Ngahina (24:41):
So we have a te reo strategy and a tikanga strategy
for all of our kaiako and ourkaiāwhina. So we have we have
just about as many kaiāwhinanow in our kura as we do kaiako.
So every learning space issupported by kaiāwhina.
Eleisha (24:55):
Mm
Ngahina (24:56):
Everyone
Eleisha (24:56):
hmm.
Ngahina (24:56):
is expected to be learning te reo Māori, what
that looks like is that we havengā pou o te reo within our
kura. Every Monday we have astaff hui which is our
professional time and for anhour we do our te reo Māori
which is delivered internally,our kaiako set goals, it's part
(25:17):
of their professional growthcycle, I sign that off as the
leader for their registrationfor Teaching Council, so we have
a really strong te reo strategywoven through PLD. The umbrella
of our PLD is based on givingeffect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi.
(25:37):
So every learning, all learningthat we do comes through that
lens. We have three withinschool leaders as part of our
Kāhui Ako and their kaupapawithin our kura is to lead our
mahi,
Eleisha (25:49):
hmm.
Ngahina (25:50):
which is around a framework that we have developed
to ensure that our kaiako aredelivering those deliberate acts
of teaching and learning throughthat lens. Some of that kaupapa
is mahi ngātahi, our whakapapa,so understanding the tamariki's
whakapapa, allowing them tobring their cultural toolkit to
the learning. And for kaiako,what does that mean? How do you
(26:14):
reflect on your own own culturaltoolkit? And what, what are you
doing to unpack and learn thatabout and for yourself?
PLD also looks like all staffonly days, and staff noho every
year start at the marae. So wehave our staff noho two days
(26:36):
overnight at the marae atHoungarea and every opportunity
that we can get to get out ofthe staff room, we have our PLD
in that whare to ensure that weare really giving mauri to the
kaupapa, being able toexperience and feel the wairua,
the ihi, the wehi of what whatwe're wanting to achieve is you
(26:58):
can't do it in a staffroom.Being able to do it at the marae
is is an authentic place and anopportunity for our kaiako to
experience that.
Eleisha (27:09):
That's awesome. Tom, do you do you take a similar
approach to PLD for your kaiako?
Tom (27:14):
Yes.
Yep. Actually a lot of, a lot of our focus has been around
what our iwi and hapū goals andaspirations are for our for our
rohe. And that's also comethrough our Kahui Ako approach
as well. So the target space forevery year do include the local
(27:35):
hapū, iwi and Kāhui Ako goalsand aspirations as well.
Eleisha (27:41):
Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you. In the next episode, we're
going to continue speaking withTom, Ngahina and Bruce about
making a difference for Māoriākonga as rangatira in a kura.
And we'll also talk about therealities of being a Maōri
principal. Mā te wā.
Kia ora and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new tumuaki in Aotearoa NewZealand. I'm Eleisha McNeill.
New Zealand's education systemhas under served Māori learners
for a long time and as a result,Māori learners in English
medium settings collectivelyexperience worse education
outcomes than other learners andare less engaged in the
(00:28):
education system. Today we'regoing to talk to three Māori
tumuaki who have worked to turnaround learning and achievement
for Māori in their Englishmedium schools. A reminder that
you can find more about thistopic and others in the
e-learning modules and you'llfind a link to those in the show
notes. Here are my guests.
Bruce (00:46):
Mauri ora ko Tongariro tōku maunga, ko Rangitikei
tōku awa, ko Ngāti Tūwharetoarātou ko Tainui, Raukawa ōku
iwi, ko Bruce Jepsen ahau. BruceJepsen, I'm the CEO of Te Akatea
and good to see my esteemedcolleagues and to be with them
have a kōrero with you alltoday.
Ngahina (01:05):
Kia ora. Tēnā anō tātou. Ngā mihi ki a koutou i
tēnei wā. Kia kōrua rā, engā tuakana, ngā tūngane,
ngā mihi o te rā ki a kōrua.Ko wai au? He uri tēnei nō te
waka o Tainui, nōNgātokimatawhaorua hoki. Um, me
(01:27):
te rohe o Mōkai Pātea.
Ko Ngāti Maniapoto tōku iwi,ko Ngāti Putaitemuri te hapū.
Um, i tipu ake au kei te pito otaku ao. Ko kei te rohe o Mōkai
Pātea ā ko Taihape engari keite noho au kei Ahuriri ināianei,
(01:48):
ko au te Tumuaki o Te Kura oFrimley kei Heretaunga, kia ora.
Tom (01:53):
Ngā mihi, ngā mihi koutou, ko Tainui te waka, ko Pirongia
te maunga, ko Waipā te awa, koNgāti Maniapoto te iwi. Ko Tom
Paekau ahau. Kia ora guys, Yep,Tom Paekau, principal of Te Kura
o Tūtarawānanga MerivaleSchool in Tauranga. Yeah, yeah.
(02:16):
Great to be back again and beingpart of the forum. Awesome, nga
mihi.
Eleisha (02:21):
Kia ora, thank you. I wanted to start by asking all of
you, what do you thinkcontributes to poor learning
outcomes in a school?
Bruce (02:30):
That's a big question, there's a whole range of things
that could equate to poorlearning outcomes in a kura.
Absolutely there's a belief thatall tamariki, if provided the
right conditions and surroundedby the right people can can
achieve great things. AndPoverty plays a big part in this
country in terms of it'scolour-blind. Those people that
(02:50):
are struggling to provide thesorts of conditions and the
resources and the, yo know, theclothing, the food, all of those
sorts of things all come into apoverty line. And if you're
below it, then good leadership,it requires you to do what you
need to do. So that's all andsundry. It's everything. I sort
(03:11):
of focus on, on the other wayaround. So the things that do
make a positive difference.Positionality is really
important and I suppose onething as Māori that we do not
do, and that's not to deficittheorise, So I've gone around
looking at the things that domake a difference as a means and
a ways of addressing anythingthat might be sitting in a place
(03:31):
that you want to causeimprovement or you've identified
an area where there's need fordevelopment or potential
improvement. So I suppose myanswer to to that question about
what causes poor outcomes, welldeficit theorizing causes poor
outcomes.
Eleisha (03:48):
Ngahina.
Ngahina (03:49):
Āe, through our te ao Māori lens and us being who we
are, we never look at things ina deficit way. We always look at
things positively andoptimistically. I'm just going
to use the kupu that are in KaHikitia, which is totally around
flipping that theorizing touplift, Hāpaitia what we do in
(04:12):
kura in a positive way. If Ijust use our analogy of Te Pō,
Te Kore, Te Mārama and even inthose dimensions of that
framework, we are always problemsolving, looking for solutions
in order to move forward to TeAo Mārama and in that place of
Te Pō, the English kupu or thetranslation of that is in the
(04:33):
realm of darkness, t still lotsof potential and opportunity. So
we never look at things in adeficit way. We always look at
things positively andoptimistically. Kia ora.
Eleisha (04:46):
Kia ora. Tom.
Tom (04:48):
Yeah, just, just want to to tautoko what Ngahina and
Bruce have both said. I thinkthe the whole idea is to be
solution focused. And when we'resolution focused, you know,
things aren't problems and we'renot coming from that sort of
deficit model of kids missingout and that sort of thing. And
(05:10):
I kind of think about when Ifirst came to my kura the things
that were good that were inplace, but there was some stuff
that wasn't and it was makingsure that the solutions to those
were, stayed front and center.And we tackled those as they
came. And so, yeah, yeah, justas the other two have said, just,
you know, having that positiveoutlook and perspective on on
(05:34):
wanting to attain the best forour, for our tamariki.
Eleisha (05:37):
I love that. Out of interest, have you worked with
kaiako who do engage in deficittheorizing? And if so, how did
you turn them around?
Bruce (05:47):
Yeah, just stop it now, it doesn't work and yeah, cut it
out. Like we could, you couldget all soft and namby pamby
around it and beat around thebush. But in actual fact it's
well researched that deficittheorizing just perpetuates the
very issue that we're talkingabout so I mean if you have time
to unpack and and get around allthose sorts of things I mean it
(06:08):
is about supporting our staff tohave better outcome, you know,
to understand these things. Sohopefully you're a fast learner
because we got a short amount oftime with these tamariki to
learn so we want to get togiving them the best quality
education as possible. And and Ithink there's a place in
embedding those, that sort oflearning in ITE. But I want I
want teachers coming with thatknowledge.
Eleisha (06:29):
Yeah
Bruce (06:30):
I want teachers prepared and well trained and well versed
in that, I mean, for for alllearners. So yeah, I tend to
employ people that alreadyunderstand that.
Ngahina (06:39):
I think just to add on to that, it's always about aro
ki te kaupapa. So remaining ponoto the vision and the focus.
It's always an holistic approach,so when we're thinking about the
whānau and the tamariki, we'relooking at it as a package. So
we don't itemize and say thatwhānau or that child doesn't
have kai so that's what we'regoing to address. We we create
(06:59):
the environment, which is ourkura, to be a place where the
tamariki and whānau have a realsense of belonging and empower
them to be able to contribute tothat, ahakoa, whatever that
contribution is. And then justcoming back to that focus on our
strategic thinking in our kuraand what that is. And I'm just
(07:19):
going to add on to what Brucehas said is the real urgency,
and I'm going to go back to KaHikitia is we can't wait around
round any longer. The system hasnot provided for us as Māori
learners or for learners inAotearoa for so long. So we
can't stand around and wait anylonger. We need to get on and
(07:42):
get the mahi done. So in ourkura, if a kaiako has bought
into the kaupapa right from thestart that says these are the
non-negotiables, this is thekaupapa, this is what we do,
this is what the deliberate actsof teaching and learning will
look like for you as a kaiako inour kura, kei a koe. So you
accept that or you don't. But westay clear and pono to that so
(08:04):
that we can all move forwardtogether.
Eleisha (08:07):
Totally. Tom, is that your approach as well?
Tom (08:09):
Yeah. Yeah, tautoko what the other two have said as well.
It's kind of like, well, ifyou're not going to be part of
the the answer, then you're partof the problem. So and just
being honest, like, if you'renot going to help try and fix
the problem and just going toplay the blame game the whole
(08:30):
time,
Eleisha (08:30):
Hmm.
Bruce (08:31):
nah, then possibly the place where you want to be is
not where we want to be sort ofthing. So yeah, again, being
positive about it. You do you,if you if you want to do you,
it's fine. It's just probablywon't be in the place that we
are. We're trying to dosomething different.
Ngahina (08:48):
So I guess this comes on to the leadership too, eh. So
like how are you being therangatira of that. Trust me.
Come with me. Take my hand andcome with me. Come with us.
Trust this process. Like Brucehas already said there's huge
amounts of research that saysthis has not been successful for
us. I'm one of those, myeducation at primary was not the
(09:10):
best being Māori, but trust.Trust as the leader that we
we're going to achieve thistogether. We'll learn along the
way, we'll we'll be able tocelebrate. There's going to be
ebbs, there's going to be highsand lows all along the way,
which is anything to do withlearning. And I think that's a
key - as a leader, once we'vegot the trust and the buy-in we
(09:32):
have to be vulnerable too asleaders and show our
vulnerability and say, well,we're all learning together, be
transparent about what ourvulnerability is in the learning
of this process. But for thekaiako, it's really, truly
getting them to buy in to andbelieving in what we're doing is
going to make a difference.
Bruce (09:53):
Couple of really important points in there, that
where Ngahina has talked aboutKa Hikitia, and Hāpaitia and
for the listeners are specificreferences to the policy around
Māori experiencing success asMāori, and there's a framework
that can help support and guideyou through these things. So
it's not guesswork, it's likerefer to the policy. So there's
(10:16):
a there's an obligation andexpectation that these are the
ways that we're going to workwith things. And to address the
inequities, that extends wellbeyond the classroom. And it
often, schools then have toprovide that holistic support
recognising those broaderchallenges we were mentioning.
And those broader challengescould be in the way of pastoral
(10:37):
care. Sometimes it could be todo with things in the health
services. It can be thepractical things around food or
clothing, but they are thethings that are required in this
day and age, that form a part ofthe systemic reform and policy
advocacy required.
Eleisha (10:57):
Hmm. So, Tom, we've talked a little bit in a
previous interview about yourcurrent kura and the way it was
when when you first came in. AndI was reading a couple of
articles where you talked aboutthe community that your kura is
in and also what people in yourcommunity said to you before you
started there. What did theytell you about the kura before
(11:18):
you started?
Tom (11:19):
Yeah, um, sort of still hitting on the same sorts of
things that we're talking aboutregarding that deficit model of
thinking. So yeah, I was toldpretty much wasting my time
going over that side, oh that'sgoing to be that's going to be a
rough school. You know, theydon't have any any discipline in,
in the area, there's multitudesof social factors that are
(11:43):
impacting on on it being, youknow, a low socio economic area,
all those all those types ofthings. So the focus had to come
from really the board and whatwe wanted to achieve as a board
first. We were wanting to createa space that was first of all,
safe for our tamariki and thenalso the expectations of
(12:07):
achievement were raised becausea classic example is an ex
member of Parliament holding aluncheon and saying we think
about schools like MerivaleSchool, ah, we're never going to
have any doctors, or lawyerscome out of there.
Eleisha (12:23):
Wow.
Tom (12:23):
So that was actually um relayed to me from a member of
staff who attended, who wasactually invited to attend. So
got in touch with my GATEteacher, uh gifted and talented
teacher who created a forum forthe students to investigate,
particularly students that havegone on and done further things
(12:43):
that were part of MerivaleSchool. So we found an
astrophysicist operating out ofColorado, we've got celebrities
and actors and so forth. So justcreating that platform so, you
know, we could communicate andsay, well actually we do make
doctors and lawyers here at thisschool. So, you know,
Eleisha (13:02):
Yeah.
Tom (13:02):
and that was you know, that was just one example of a
lot of dialogue that often cameout. And at times still comes
out around here but we've gotammunition to back up that none
of that is true now. So kei tepai.
Eleisha (13:17):
Yeah, definitely. I mean, you had a really clear
vision of what you wanted to doand where you wanted the school
to go, what you wanted yourākonga to be able to achieve
and how you wanted them to learn.So you, you mentioned there that
you worked with this with theschool board on that shared
vision. What kind of changes didyou make that had such a massive
impact?
Tom (13:38):
Getting kids to school. That was that was the number one
focus. So we knew that if kidswere going to be late to school,
nine times out of ten, theyweren't going to come to school.
So we changed, staggered ourstart time. So we now start at 9:
20. And just from that smallstep, we got a 50% increase in
attendance. So
Eleisha (13:59):
Wow
Tom (14:00):
which was huge. So just small examples of that Eleisha.
I mean, we're not the only kurathat does things to mitigate
problems, but that was one ofour own examples that we were
really proud of. And yeah, we'reactually leading our West
cluster at the moment inattendance, which is great.
Eleisha (14:17):
Yeah, that's awesome. And Bruce, you had a massive
impact on student achievement,too.
Bruce (14:22):
I like these success stories. And I think, Tommy's so
humble, way more humble than me.Ngahina touched on leadership
earlier. And one thing that Iknow with these two people is
that what they bring, they bringMāori value to the fore,
Eleisha (14:36):
Yeah.
Bruce (14:37):
they bring it to practice, they bring it to policy, they
bring it to curricula, theybreak down institutional
barriers, they have relationshipwith whānau, hapū and iwi and
they, they prioritize thesethings and it comes right to the
front. They do it holistically.And so like they might talk
about attendance, but when Tomtalks about attendance,
attendance is one thing but butthere's a whole range of factors
(14:58):
that require attendance to occur.So awesome work Tommy.
Eleisha (15:03):
Yeah. And I'd love to hear how you, you know, what did
you do with your kura? How didyou turn it around?
Bruce (15:09):
It's like 20 years ago! So
Eleisha (15:10):
Yeah.
Bruce (15:11):
know, I know, I know I've learnt a few things along the
way. So In all the work we didand I say we because it's a
collective what what constitutesa community. The role of whānau
and hapū and iwi in theeducational leadership, the
positionality of that, the powersharing of that to have an
authentic rather than atokenistic, superficial type of
(15:34):
relationship so that I listenedto people. And when we had a hui
with whānau, if 40% of our kurawere Māori, then I wanted 40%
of those Māori whānau at thosehui. If we didn't, then my
expectations were not goodenough and if I was making
assumptions about what was bestfor for all tamariki, then well
(15:54):
we'd fall short if we weren'tconsulting and working really
hard to do that. So try whateverapproach we could to have
conversations in whichever way,preferably face to face, but not
always able. So whatever way tokōrero with our whānau. So to
have an authentic partnershipwith our Māori community or
(16:14):
with community, that's essentialif we're going to achieve equity
because we're trying tounderstand what the needs are of
our whānau and then we'retrying to act on that. The
community knew what was best forthe community. So listening,
extracting and then making senseof what people were saying and
bringing that together in acohesive sort of way that was
(16:37):
coherent,
Eleisha (16:38):
Mm hmm.
Bruce (16:38):
and then following up and having action related to our
findings. So one thing aboutlistening, more importantly that
you do something with it
Eleisha (16:47):
Yeah.
Bruce (16:47):
and when you do something with it, that it's done in
relationship with a power share,
Eleisha (16:52):
Mm hmm.
Bruce (16:52):
people can see and hear the very ideas that they shared
enacted.
Eleisha (16:57):
So in terms of of, like, practical steps that you took
for your ākonga, how did howdid you change the way that they
were learning to improve it?
Bruce (17:06):
Yeah, well, I think there was a definite focus on identity,
culture, and reo just straightoff the bat, which weren't high
priorities. The things that wedid, had a focus in ensuring
that everyone had a sense ofbelonging based on teaching -
learning pedagogy. It was justreally fundamental, form a
relationship and know yourtamariki and when you know your
tamariki then applying thatholistic approach, what are the
(17:28):
things that really providepeople with that hunger and
appetite to learn? What are thethings that make children want
to come to school? And similarlyfor whānau, what makes them
want to be there and feel a partof it?
Eleisha (17:41):
Mm hmm.
Bruce (17:42):
All those sorts of things. So you could go on about one of
those things because they're allhuge pieces of work. They
involve a whole range ofdifferent practices and pedagogy
and also evidence base. So isthat there is enough evidence in
this country though, all leaders,if they wanted to find out, you
could refer to policy aboutMāori succeeding as Māori. And
(18:04):
if you follow those steps to getyourself on the right track, if
you make every effort to form arelationship with your own hapū
or iwi in your rohe, or try toconnect. And that's part of the
role too, it's too easy to say,oh, I don't know how, well then
what do you do when you don'tknow how? And that's not for me
to answer how far will you go toallow for that learning to occur...
(18:26):
so?
Ngahina (18:27):
Yeah, a lot of tumuaki I know, I've been in hui and
I've been facilitating and I'vebeen a listener where they say
it's too hard, how do we do that?First and foremost, your whānau
are iwi. Your tamariki are iwi.So not only kaiako, but, but as
a leader you need to understandand know who, who the tamariki
(18:48):
are, who the whānau are in yourkura to be able to navigate that
pathway forward.
Eleisha (18:53):
Yeah, for sure. And Ngahina, you've been involved in
some amazing work. Can you tellme a little bit about place
based learning and your part inmaking the kura, you know, an
even more amazing place to be.
Ngahina (19:06):
Ka pai, it totally links to my two brothers here
and what they've talked aboutalready. But I'm just going to
elevate it back to the strategicdirection and what we do. So as
a board, they are truly andtotally committed to enacting
and giving effect to Te Tiriti oWaitangi. So what that looks
like is ensuring that we haveproductive partnerships and our
(19:29):
iwi, hapū and whānau are atthe table of all decision making.
They are not further down thelist of when we need to go to
the marae that we we get thatinvolvement. That is all part of
the decision, the decisionmaking. So I guess that's just
I'm just going to tautoko whatBruce said about that. So one of
(19:51):
the big kaupapa that wasfundamental to our Ngā Ara
Mātauranga, which is thepathway of learning, the pathway
of knowledge based on four keycomponents of Ngāti Kahungunu
ki Heretaunga and the fourcomponents are around the waka
Kahungunu, the tangata, one ofawa Ngaruroro, and Kahurānaki
(20:13):
the maunga, so 'whatungarongarote tangata, toitū te whenua',
so none of those will move orfalter or waver. But if we embed
a rich curriculum based on thosefour components, our tamariki
will be better placed to besuccessful contributors not only
to Aotearoa but beyond andglobal. So our Ngā Ara
(20:37):
Mātauranga is based on that andthat is really fundamental to
our relationships that we havewith our iwi, Ngāti Kahungunu
ki Heretaunga, with our hapūand our marae. The other kaupapa
and component of that is thatour board fully support and
tautoko that, so it is expectedthat every term all of our
tamariki and there are 570 ofthem experience, they smell they
(21:01):
touch they breathe in the air ofNgāti Kahungunu ki Heretaunga
and they are taken to places ofspecial importance, that
illustrate and talk about ourpūrākau of the whenua here. So
it's an expectation that theyare put on the bus and taken to
wherever that is, whatever thekaupapa is that's that's what
(21:23):
will happen. Learning at themarae is normal. So we go to
Houngarea in Pakipaki and we sitin the whare and we listen. We
take our rangatira there everyterm. So our tamariki experience,
experience that. I'm just goingto go back to the data that we
collect and collate. So we'vegot eight years of data, we
(21:46):
collect data every year that isa 360 voice from our whānau,
our kaiako, and our tamarikithat ask about kaiako
relationships. So what happensat the beginning of the survey?
Whānau and tamariki put intheir ethnicity. So then the
question will pop up and say,for you being Māori at Frimley
School, what does that soundlike? What does what do you hear?
(22:08):
How do you feel? How do yourkaiako interact with you? If you
are Pasifika and you are Samoanthat will pop up and that
question will come up. So forSamoan whānau, that question
will say, what does it feel likefor you being in the kura to be
Samoan? How is your language,your culture and identity
reflected within learning? Howdo kaiako respond to your
(22:30):
tamariki in their place oflearning. The Wellbeing Survey
talks about the components ofracism, so we've collected that
data now for three years. Ittalks about our tamariki being
in the community, being in thekura. So those are two real key
elements of our decision makingwhen we're setting our targets,
(22:53):
yes, we set targets aroundliteracy and numeracy, but that
is not everything, those two keydata portals or that information
really gives us our grounding toensure one, that our Ngā Ara
Mātauranga is being experiencedand delivered, and two that our
whānau are feeling empoweredand have a voice to have their
(23:15):
say. Yes, we have our whānaulearning celebrations where they
come in and the tamariki talkabout what's happening, but this
is a real opportunity for themat the end of every year to talk
about what is really importantin kura and how do you feel as a
whānau to be a part of our kura.Mana whenua is really, really
important in ensuring that that
Eleisha (23:37):
hmm hmm
Ngahina (23:37):
once again back at the strategic level that is woven
through, it's transparent, andit's a part of every decision
that is made for the impact andthe success of the tamariki here
in our kura, which aligns withthe Iwi aspirations is that our
(24:01):
people are thriving and andbeing successful. Who has the
measuring stick of that? Eachwhānau has the measuring stick
of that. Iwi has the measuringstick of that. So we ensure that
it's aligned with theaspirations of iwi. That is our
curriculum and that is how wedeliver. And all of our pedagogy
(24:22):
is based on culturallyresponsive pedagogies making
sure that our kaiako are,delivering deliberate acts of
teaching and learning throughthat lens.
Eleisha (24:32):
Mm hmm. And how, you know, professional learning and
development for the kaiako. Whatkinds of things do do they do
they go through?
Ngahina (24:41):
So we have a te reo strategy and a tikanga strategy
for all of our kaiako and ourkaiāwhina. So we have we have
just about as many kaiāwhinanow in our kura as we do kaiako.
So every learning space issupported by kaiāwhina.
Eleisha (24:55):
Mm
Ngahina (24:56):
Everyone
Eleisha (24:56):
hmm.
Ngahina (24:56):
is expected to be learning te reo Māori, what
that looks like is that we havengā pou o te reo within our
kura. Every Monday we have astaff hui which is our
professional time and for anhour we do our te reo Māori
which is delivered internally,our kaiako set goals, it's part
(25:17):
of their professional growthcycle, I sign that off as the
leader for their registrationfor Teaching Council, so we have
a really strong te reo strategywoven through PLD. The umbrella
of our PLD is based on givingeffect to Te Tiriti o Waitangi.
(25:37):
So every learning, all learningthat we do comes through that
lens. We have three withinschool leaders as part of our
Kāhui Ako and their kaupapawithin our kura is to lead our
mahi,
Eleisha (25:49):
hmm.
Ngahina (25:50):
which is around a framework that we have developed
to ensure that our kaiako aredelivering those deliberate acts
of teaching and learning throughthat lens. Some of that kaupapa
is mahi ngātahi, our whakapapa,so understanding the tamariki's
whakapapa, allowing them tobring their cultural toolkit to
the learning. And for kaiako,what does that mean? How do you
(26:14):
reflect on your own own culturaltoolkit? And what, what are you
doing to unpack and learn thatabout and for yourself?
PLD also looks like all staffonly days, and staff noho every
year start at the marae. So wehave our staff noho two days
(26:36):
overnight at the marae atHoungarea and every opportunity
that we can get to get out ofthe staff room, we have our PLD
in that whare to ensure that weare really giving mauri to the
kaupapa, being able toexperience and feel the wairua,
the ihi, the wehi of what whatwe're wanting to achieve is you
(26:58):
can't do it in a staffroom.Being able to do it at the marae
is is an authentic place and anopportunity for our kaiako to
experience that.
Eleisha (27:09):
That's awesome. Tom, do you do you take a similar
approach to PLD for your kaiako?
Tom (27:14):
Yes.
Yep. Actually a lot of, a lot of our focus has been around
what our iwi and hapū goals andaspirations are for our for our
rohe. And that's also comethrough our Kahui Ako approach
as well. So the target space forevery year do include the local
(27:35):
hapū, iwi and Kāhui Ako goalsand aspirations as well.
Eleisha (27:41):
Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you. In the next episode, we're
going to continue speaking withTom, Ngahina and Bruce about
making a difference for Māoriākonga as rangatira in a kura.
And we'll also talk about therealities of being a Maōri
principal. Mā te wā.
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