February 24, 2025 • 34 mins
All ākonga deserve the opportunity to flourish and succeed in their education, and making sure your students have this opportunity is your most important priority as principal. This means providing them with any learning support they need to reach their potential. But how easy is it to find the support your students need, and what can you do if you can’t access it? That’s what we’re going to talk about today.
My guests are:
- John Bangma, tumuaki of Mariehau Primary School and one of the leaders of the national RTLB (Resource Teachers: Learning and Behaviour) lead school network
- Saane Faaofo-Oldehaver, former principal and leadership advisor, former special education need coordinator in two schools, member of Highest Needs Review Advisory Group
- Jane Corcoran, principal Brunswick School in Whanganui and executive member of NZRSLA.
This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education as part of Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals.
You can learn more about this topic by accessing Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals e-learning modules on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz
Show notes
Episode themes:
- What inclusive information is.
- The more that you know the tamariki in your own school, the more diversity you recognise, the more needs that you see, the more you’ll want to find ways to help them.
- There will never be enough resource to meet all the needs out there – but it’s important that you are doing the best you can do, making every effort to support every child with those needs in any way you can.
- In small schools you may be the teacher, the SENCO and the principal, so you’ll be able to notice needs yourself.
- Understanding the pathways to getting support, including your RTLB (Resource Teacher Learning and Behaviour service).
- Using parents to help with their own kids may not be the best choice!
- Challenges of sourcing support in rural and other areas, as well as the opportunities small schools offer diverse learners.
Additional information
Learning support for literacy and communication https://www.education.govt.nz/parents-and-caregivers/schools-year-0-13/learning-support/learning-support-literacy-and-communication
Questions
2:07 [All] As tumuaki, what is inclusive education for you? What does it mean?
3:20 [John] What does it mean to provide adequate support for a child with learning challenges?
5:53 [All] If a child's starting in your school and the teacher notices that they're not keeping up, where do you start, and what are the steps to getting them what they need?
12:22 [John] You talked about the RTLB. Can you tell me about that, please?
15:26 [John] Where d
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eleisha (00:08):
Kia ora and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new tumuaki in Aotearoa NewZealand. I'm Eleisha McNeill.
All ākonga deserve theopportunity to flourish and
succeed in their education, andmaking sure your students have
this opportunity is your mostimportant priority as principal.
This means providing them withlearning support they need to
(00:29):
reach their potential. But howeasy is it to find the support
your students need? And what canyou do if you can't access it?
That's what we're going to talkabout today. Just a reminder,
you can find more informationabout this and other topics in
the e-learning modules andyou'll find a link to those in
the show notes. Here are myguests.
Saane (00:49):
Fakalofa lahi atu my name is Saane Faaofo Olderhaver, and
this year I am on a secondmentto the Ministry of Education as
the leadership advisor Pasifikaand I have the privilege of
working across Auckland withprincipals, and in my previous
life I am the tumuaki ofWeymouth Primary School here out
in South Auckland. Mālō.
John (01:08):
Tēna koutou katoa, ko John Bangma tōku ingoa, ko ahau
tumuaki o Te Kura Mairehau,Ōtautahi. I'm John Bangma. I'm
the have the privilege andpleasure of being the principal
of Mairehau Primary School,which is about 5 minutes north
east as the crow flies from theCathedral Square in Christchurch,
where I've been for the last 23years. And yeah, it's still a
(01:30):
job that I greatly enjoy, stillcome with pleasure to work every
day.
Jane (01:35):
Kia ora tātou, ko Jane Corcoran tōku ingoa, no
Whanganui ahau. Ko au te tumuakio Te Kura o Brunswick e
Whanganui. I'm Jane Corcoran. Iam the current principal of
Brunswick School, which is a U3school, about 12 minutes north
west of Whanganui, sittingamongst some of the most
beautiful paddocks in ourcountry. And I live about 20
(01:57):
minutes away on a New Zealandhorse thoroughbred farm. So I am
rural through and through andlove being a principal in a
rural school.
Eleisha (02:06):
That's cool, thank you. So as tumuaki, what is inclusive
education for you? What does itmean?
Saane (02:14):
It's really just about our children and young people,
making sure they feel accepted,making sure they enjoy those
positive relationships withlearners and teachers, and
they're able to be active andvisible members in a learning
community.
Eleisha (02:29):
John.
John (02:29):
I think for me, inclusion comes from the word included,
and when you're including people,you are accepting that they are
all going to be different,they're all going to be unique.
And we celebrate that diversitythat we have in our schools. So
we don't treat each child as thesame as everyone else. And
knowing that those children whohave issues, which is about 100%
(02:53):
of my school and every otherschool, actually enjoy school,
want to be at school and can'twait to come back each day. So
to me that's about inclusion.
Jane (03:03):
I tautoku all of that. It about the acceptance and the
diversity and also their rightto fully participate in
education and benefit from it,from education in any school
that they're part of.
Eleisha (03:19):
Definitely. And John, what does it mean to provide
adequate support for a childwith learning challenges?
John (03:27):
I think if you hold on to the word adequate and use that
as your pillar, you're going tobe disappointed every day. There
is never enough money, and evenif the resourcing was doubled or
tripled, it would still not beenough to actually meet all of
the needs out there. And themore that we know the tamariki
in our own schools, the morediversity we recognise, the more
(03:48):
needs that we see, the more thatwe want to be able to work ways
to help. So to me, adequate is,I guess, just an illusion that's
never going to be fulfilledentirely. But to know that you
are doing the best that youpossibly can for every child
with those needs I think isreally, really important and
making all the efforts you canto make that difference for that
(04:12):
child.
Eleisha (04:13):
Jane, what would you add?
Jane (04:14):
So John's correct. There is never going to be enough
resourcing
Eleisha (04:18):
Mm hmm.
Jane (04:18):
provided for to cater for the diverse leaders that we have
in our country. And so it'sabout being a really strong
advocate for those students andfor their whānau and just you
have to just keep going. And weknow that people are our
strongest asset and so beingable to bring together the
people that can help, that cando something. I heard something
(04:41):
recently this year, and it wasactually some advice given at a
conference by a parent about howprincipals can engage with
whānau of children with diverselearning needs or with trauma.
And she says as a parent, it'sreally important for principals
to realise that a parent doesn'tjudge you by your intentions.
(05:04):
They judge you by your actions.
Eleisha (05:05):
Mm hmm
Jane (05:06):
And I thought that's so important. That was a key
takeaway for me.
Eleisha (05:10):
Saane?
Saane (05:11):
Doesn't matter how much resources you put on, there's
never going to be enoughresource. And I guess it's just
supporting those schools to makesure they can deliver a, you
know, a rich curriculum and andthey can provide those physical
environments and and meet theneeds of every single learner
because, you know, the childrencoming in, the challenges are
because obviously the specialschools have closed, well they
(05:31):
haven't closed, they're justfull.
Eleisha (05:32):
Mm hmm.
Saane (05:33):
So all those children on those waiting lists are now
coming into the mainstreamschools, and we aren't as
well-equipped, obviously, as ourspecial schools to cater for
these kids. So I think theMinistry needs to think a little
bit more around what that'sgoing to look like in the
mainstream schools becausethat's not going to stop and
they're not going to open morespecial schools. So...
Eleisha (05:52):
Yeah ,
Saane (05:53):
Yeah.
Eleisha (05:53):
for sure. And if a if a child's starting in your school
and the teacher notices thatthey're not keeping up, where do
you start, and what are thesteps to getting them what they
need?
Jane (06:05):
I think that's really good if you've got teachers that are
that are noticing things for anew ākonga, and being able to
act on that quickly is reallygoing to help the student and
it's also going to help theteacher and then settle into
their learning environment. So Iguess you've got to listen to
the teacher and find out whattheir noticings are and I find
(06:28):
it really helpful to actually gointo the class. And if you're a
teaching principal, that'sreally easy because you are the
teaching principal, you're theirclassroom teacher, you're also
the SENCO as well. And then fromthere you have to identify, you
know, what are the needs, whatare the barriers, and then what
support do I need to get and howdo I get it, and there's,
there's various avenues that youcan do that, that might be
(06:49):
through your RTLB liaison person,it might be through special
education from the Ministry. Andit's really about who your
school and the regional team,the supports that you have out
there and the networks that youhave out there. Because what it
looks like in John's school willbe totally different
Eleisha (07:07):
Mm
Jane (07:07):
for the rest of us. And you might have a social worker
in your school, you might be alarger school and have access.
So a lot of it's about access.
Saane (07:16):
Absolutely. I think the lucky thing that when you're in
a bigger school, you have a DPwho technically might have that
role
Eleisha (07:21):
hmm.
Saane (07:21):
as a SENCO. So when you have an absolutely fantastic
SENCO and I'm blessed that we dohave one, you know, she works
above and beyond to try to makesure that we put in all those
supports. And she listens to ourteachers and she listens to our
teacher aides and she goes andshe tries to outsource whatever
they need in order to make thathappen for them in the classroom.
But I guess first and foremost,when the kids first come in,
(07:43):
it's just about building thoserelationships. You know, the
relationship with the child, therelationship with the family,
just so that they can understandas much as they possibly can so
they can determine what theyneed to go and get in regards to
support, so, yeah, know mebefore you teach me, sort of,
you know that relationships areso crucial.
Eleisha (08:03):
Definitely. John, would you what would you add to that?
John (08:05):
I would agree that getting to know the child is the most
imperative thing becausesometimes children will present,
but it's actually not an issue.It's just a confidence issue or
it's just getting familiar withbeing in a new environment.
Jane's right in terms of whenyou're in a larger school,
you've got other opportunitiesthere. We are all in
collaborative spaces in ourschool, so there's never one
(08:27):
adult alone with a group ofchildren. There are always
multiple. So we've got teams ofteachers, but also kaiāwhina
who are there as well. So thereare more eyes on any particular
child at any particular time.The expectations in our school
would be that you're actuallylooking to to understand what it
is that you're addressing beforeyou're actually looking for
something and doing everythingpossible within your own group,
(08:52):
in your own collaborative spaceto be able to work out how that
team can best support aparticular child. My mantra is
always children are not likecars. You don't send them away
to be fixed. Nobody's coming tofix a child. It's about actually
making a difference for thatchild and what you can do within
the resources that are there.When you employ kaiāwhina or
(09:16):
teacher aides, we have 13 fulltime, we get funded for about
five of them. The rest of themall come out of our operational
funding. I can afford to do thatbecause I'm in a large school.
When you're in a small ruralschool, it's often not an option.
I just think the challenges fora small rural school or for a,
for a sole charge school, andthere are so many of them that
(09:36):
are out there, the challengesare that much harder because
they don't have the financessitting behind them to be able
to make decisions like that, toemploy the numbers of people.
But there are resources that areout there. Getting access to
them is always a challenge. Thewait lists are a challenge. You
know, I am obviously a verystaunch supporter of the RTLB
(09:57):
service, being a lead schoolprincipal for our own cluster,
and they do an amazing job ofsupporting the teacher because a
teacher needs to do thingsdifferently. There is nowhere,
even even our little girl withcerebral palsy does not qualify
for full time support, eventhough if she doesn't have an
adult next to her, she cannotaccess things. She cannot move
(10:20):
because she can't power herselfto move around. It's just the
reality. And I think whilst I'mnot saying that we are hardened
to it, I guess we're just alittle bit more accepting that
we do everything we can to makea difference for every child and
work on what we can do and seeif we can get more resources, if
(10:41):
we can get it, but not use thatas an excuse not to do anything.
Jane (10:46):
Hmm, I agree with John. There's so many students out
there that are not receiving thelevel of support that they
should and the hours of supportthat they should. And that can
be a challenging conversation,particularly if you're new into
the principal role, with whānaubecause they see that their
child has these needs and theexpectation is my child has
(11:07):
these needs, they have a rightto be supported. And as we know,
that those specialists justaren't really available. There's
a shortage of our specialistsacross the country. So managing
those relationships and havingthose conversations and managing
the expectation is vital to ourleadership role. And it's with
the whānau, but also with ourteachers as well, like John said,
(11:30):
you know, someone's not justgoing to come in with the magic
potion and and fix the problemsthat we have in schools.
Saane (11:36):
I agree.
John (11:37):
I think it also leads to the problem with some of our
initial teacher education.Teachers that come out to teach
are not prepared for thediversity that's actually going
to confront them when they'recoming to their own into their
own space. They're not preparedfor all of the extra stuff,
they're they're okay withthey're going to teach a basic
maths lesson or a basic Englishlesson. But when it comes to all
(12:00):
of that other stuff that goeswith it, and that's why to me
the, the collaborative nature ofour school allows those that are
experienced to teach the youngerones coming through, to be able
to support them and help themwith the decisions, and that the
changes really that need to beaffected for each student.
Eleisha (12:21):
Yeah, definitely. You talked about the RTLB. Can you
tell me all about that, please?
John (12:27):
Absolutely. So RTLB are specialist teachers. So they
start as regular classroomteachers, they're experienced
teachers and they haveadditional training at Master's
levels for specialised teachingpractice. The RTLB is there to
support teachers, to supportteams, to support schools, to
(12:47):
make change for the better ofchildren. So they don't come in
and work with the child. Theycome in and work with the adults
that are involved with the child.They can provide some resourcing.
Sometimes they can provide someextra resourcing for getting
different equipment. Sometimesit can be to provide additional
(13:08):
learning support and by way ofkaiāwhina or teacher aides,
there's a whole raft of thingsthat they can actually support
with. But it's that knowledgeand getting teachers to find
their own solutions that aregoing to make a difference. If
they empower a teacher to workbetter with a particular child,
every child that comes to thatteacher's class from then on is
(13:32):
going to benefit from whatthey've actually been able to
achieve. They are roll-generatedin terms of numbers of children
across the country. There arecurrently 1007 RTLB across the
country and they are spreadacross 40 different clusters and
each cluster covers a geographicarea. So sometimes the RTLB are
(13:54):
based geographically, sometimesthey're centralised and it just
depends how how it works. Theymeet regularly as a team to
allocate cases. So it's arequest for service and could
take the form of looking foradditional help for an
individual child, for a smallgroup, for a class, for a team,
(14:15):
a syndicate, for a whole school.And that opportunity to support
can be as varied as the needsthat are there.
Saane (14:24):
I think it's really crucial that our principals that
just begin principalship reallyget to intimately know the
resource teaching and learningand behaviour system because
there is so much more that theyoffer that schools don't know
about, because they have so muchresource, it's amazing.
John (14:40):
And Jane talked about it before having a liaison. So
every school should have aliaison RTLB that you build a
relationship with. And myamazing DP who's also our SENCO,
we don't qualify for a learningsupport coordinator that she
meets on a fortnightly basiswith our with our liaison. So
(15:01):
they talk about it. Sometimesthose conversations are around
notice this about a particularchild. What do you think? And
that advice can be there withoutactually having to go through
that whole process. So it's agreat resource and it gets huge
in excess of 80% satisfactionrate every year of schools that
are very satisfied or satisfiedwith the service they get.
Eleisha (15:24):
So where do new principals go to get information
about RTLB?
John (15:29):
They can get it from, there's a website,
Eleisha (15:31):
Yeah.
John (15:31):
generally each RTLB has its own website as well. So the
Ministry website gives thegenerics about RTLB
Eleisha (15:37):
Mm hmm.
John (15:38):
what they they offer. But then there's the individual
clusters have their own as well.And when a new tumuaki is
appointed, I know that ourcluster manager makes an
appointment to actually go andvisit, it's a little bit more
challenging in some areas. Butfor us that works. But bear in
mind our cluster also covers theChatham and the Pitt Islands, so
(15:59):
we do go a little bit far aswell. They're not left out
because it's important.
Eleisha (16:03):
Definitely. And there's there's a really wide spectrum
of learning need in kura. Whatkinds of learning challenges
have you all seen? I mean,what's the most common if there
is such a thing?
Saane (16:16):
It would be hard to pinpoint. I mean we get lots of
children with autism that areenrolling. We get lots of ADHD,
ADD, the Ministry have thiswebsite that you can go on and
you click and it just gives youan A to Z of all the different
needs that are out there,because sometimes you don't even
know what the need is, becausesome children come and they are
like John and Jane have said,they're undiagnosed. So it's
(16:39):
trying to determine what is theactual need and where does it
fit. Not that we want to labelevery child, but it's trying to
find out what we need to do tosupport our teachers
Eleisha (16:48):
Yeah.
Saane (16:48):
and our and our support staff to be able to work to meet
the needs of all those children.So, look from A to Z.
Jane (16:56):
I think it would be fair to say that there has been an
increase in the numbers ofdiverse learners that are coming
through the school gate and asJohn talked about before, you
know, training for teachersdoesn't necessarily prepare
teachers for that.
Eleisha (17:10):
Mm
Jane (17:11):
And our more experienced teachers have had to really
nuance their practice becausenew behaviours are coming
through through the gate andinto classrooms that we haven't
experienced before as teachersand as as tumuaki. And you need
to take your time, like Johnsaid earlier, and build those
relationships and get to knowthose students. And because
(17:35):
there will be new situationsthat you need to navigate
through and you want to takethat carefully and safely for
everybody involved. You know,decisions have to be
mana-enhancing for everybody.And that can be challenging when
you are in a in a context thatyou haven't come across before,
that you haven't experienced.
John (17:56):
I've had to fill in forms in the past, and where it says
the number of children, forexample, the number of ORS
children, that's fine. That's adefinitive number.
Eleisha (18:05):
hmm.
John (18:06):
How many ESOL students we have, that's fine. I can put
those in as well. And then theysay, how many children in your
school have have needs? And Iput 100% - every child has needs.
It's just that some have moreneeds than others. And if we
recognise that then we stopthinking about the norm because
there is no norm,
Eleisha (18:24):
Yeah.
John (18:25):
it's just the diversity that's there. And even a child
who is academically able but shy,well, that's still a need but
that's not considered asignificant need that needs to
be addressed necessarily, butit's still an awareness of that.
I know for me that it's allbased on I'm ESOL, I didn't
speak a word of English till Iwent to school. I know what it's
(18:47):
like to be bullied and all ofthose those things. But that
also built who I am now in termsof when I became a principal, I
can do things about things. Andand when you click as a teacher
with those children who don'tfit in the box and then start
realising, actually the more Ithink about it, there are no
children in that box. They areall outside that box. Oh, why is
(19:09):
it that we're actually clickingwith those children? Well, it's
because we recognise thepotential that's in all of them.
We want the best for every child.We don't just focus on this
group or this group. But youknow, Jane said it's certainly
getting more. We've always in my30 years as a principal, we have
always had children with needs.The difference is that we're now
(19:30):
trying to do more about it, andI think we are certainly seeing
more of them coming through thegate.
Jane (19:36):
And I think you need to build up really strong support
systems within your kura becausethe help's not out there.
Eleisha (19:42):
Hmm
Jane (19:42):
So you've got to be able to provide the PLD and the
support to the people that areworking closely with the
students. You know, I faced apretty grim reality at the
beginning of the year when I wasasked by one of the support
agencies after we'd gone throughour special education needs
register to just select onestudent to put forward for
(20:02):
support.
Eleisha (20:03):
Wow.
Jane (20:03):
And that was heartbreaking for me because in a school of
over 100, there were so manystudents who needed referrals
put in and to be told that Ihave to limit to one student. It
was pretty hard. And then youhave to go and be able to
explain to those teachers whythe students in their class
couldn't have a referral made.And then you have to have the
conversations with whānau. Sothat's why I really think around
(20:27):
building your internal supportsin a school so you're not so
reliant on outside agencies isreally good. And you know, I
want to support what John saidabout RTLB, our cluster RTLB are
fantastic, it's about newtumuaki building that really
strong relationship with theirRTLB liaison alongside their
(20:47):
Ministry of Education supportperson. So what we do here is we
will have a meeting twice a termwith our RTLB liaison and our
Ministry learning support personand the teachers come into my
office and they rotate and theytalk around the students in
their class and the needs theyhave and they have that
opportunity to share how they'refeeling. And we can we can find
(21:10):
some solutions for that, whichworks really well. And when you
talk about what does that looklike, you know, we've talked
about it's not easy in anyschool. And we know for our
small and remote schools thatthis provides additional
challenges. So I'm 12 minutesfrom our regional offices, it
makes it easy for Ministry andRTLB to jump in the car. But if
(21:32):
you are an hour and a half fromWhanganui up a winding road,
it's not realistic. It's notpractical. So for those students
and schools there, you know,there are real geographical
barriers and there's really lotsof delays in response times
trying to navigate that. Andthat's where you've got to be a
little bit creative. You canstill have those hui, but
(21:54):
they'll be online. And just likewe're doing now, Covid brought
us so many things. And one ofthe advantages was being able to
to work in this in this virtualspace. So
Eleisha (22:03):
Hmm hmm.
Jane (22:04):
I highly recommend for tumuaki in those remote settings.
Don't give up, find a way, findsolutions to remove barriers to
getting that support.
Eleisha (22:14):
Yeah.
Saane (22:15):
I think it's so crucial, those innovations, because I see
that a lot as I've been workingin my role across Auckland. So
there's schools out there thatare not waiting for the resource,
cos you're right, it's this isnot coming fast enough. So there
are quite a few schools thatI've been to that are creating
their own, different learningspaces, and they're trialling
different things and they'rebringing children in and out. So
(22:36):
they're just trying to doeverything in their power within
their own schools to try andmeet the needs of all of their
children. And for some it looksdifferent. They've created
neurodiverse learning spaces.Others have done a lot more work
holistically around universaldesign for learning. So there's
been a few different thingshappening across Auckland
because you're right, theresource is there, but it's a
little bit stretched thin at themoment with the amount of
(22:59):
children we've got coming in.
Jane (23:01):
And sometimes you have great success at bringing
agencies together and you get aheap of support, but it's not
successful and that can bereally challenging. And the
reason that it's not successfulis, you know, we're asked to
deal with so manyuncontrollables. We're trying to
sort problems in school that areactually out of school problems.
And you can have all the supportavailable, but if everybody
(23:24):
that's involved isn't on thesame page or the same boat, you
know,it's not going to besuccessful for the tamariki. And
that can be that can be adifficult situation Yeah.
Eleisha (23:34):
For sure. And in an earlier interview, I spoke with
some rural principals who have,really struggled to find people
who, you know, you might have akaiāwhina for 10 hours a week
or something, but if they livean hour and a half away, it's
just not realistic for them todrive for for 3 hours a day for
for 2 hours of work. So, youknow, what do you do in
(23:57):
situations like that? How do youwork around that? Is that just
that being creative and thinkingof different ways to be able
support the kids who need it?
Jane (24:05):
I think in those really small schools, you know, John
touched on it earlier around
Eleisha (24:09):
Yes.
Jane (24:09):
the lack of finances. The two big things challenging small
and remote schools are the lackof financing and the lack of
staffing. And
Eleisha (24:16):
hmm.
Jane (24:16):
we know when we have children with diverse learning
needs or additional learningneeds, your biggest asset is
people, having the right peoplewrapped around them to support
and building those relationshipswith them. And that that is the
greatest challenge. And likeyou've said, how do you get
someone if they've got to travel2 hours away? And I guess, you
know, when I was a beginningprincipal, you're the jack of
(24:38):
all trades, you've just got tobe a bit of a MacGyver and and
do what you can and you willhave tamariki in your school,
the older students. So if you'resole charge you've got you know
your new entrants right throughto year eight in the same class.
And I was very privileged thatmy own children were in that
school, in that small schoolenvironment and and they were
(25:00):
great at helping those studentswith the diverse learning needs
and taking on those leadershiproles. And you can do that
because there's no you know,you're not in a year four class
and you're not in a year eightclass. You're all just one big
whānau and there's that tuakanateina. And you can use, there's
people in the community thatwant to come and volunteer and
support. And sometimes in thoseclose, tight knit communities,
(25:24):
there's real benefits, becausepeople have those strong
relationships and theyunderstand and they support.
Eleisha (25:29):
And parents as well. I imagine that, you know, parents
are pretty keen to help when itwhen it comes to their kids as
well.
John (25:35):
I think, there's a lot asked of parents, sometimes a
lot of parents are working. Andso that's a challenge. And so
you have to be careful. I'vealways struggled with using
parents to solve the problembecause that's partially why
they were also at school. Sothey get some independence away
from
Eleisha (25:53):
Mm
John (25:53):
the
Eleisha (25:53):
hmm.
John (25:53):
parents. And if a parent is there, I know with my own
grandchildren, when the parentsare there the child is different
than when the parents are notthere. So it's it's got to be
careful. We tapped into thelocal Ryman village and were
able to source a whole lot ofolder people there who were
rewiring and finding otherthings in life to do. Now
(26:14):
they're too busy. It's hard toactually get them. But it was
great when you can actually getpeople in there, we have the
local Rotary and they send sixpeople to come and listen to our
children reading. So there areopportunities there. The
challenge, of course, is thatour most difficult children are
asked.. We ask our kaiāwhina orour least trained people as
(26:36):
teacher aides to work with them.And yet they are the most
challenging children thatactually need to have the skills
of the teacher to be able to doit. But there's that constant
pull on where's it got to gofirst to make it work. And
sometimes solutions just comeout of the woodwork. You know,
we had a change of teacher for aparticular difficult child and
(26:59):
she came to the realization thatshe was spending too much time
looking at the negatives andnever enough on the positives
and started actually a bit OTTwith the positives. But this
child is actually changingbefore our eyes because instead
of being always slammed becauseeverything, still enough things
shouldn't be doing, but actuallynow growing, nobody would have
(27:21):
said, well, maybe you shouldfocus on the positive because we
just assume that's what peopledo. But it's about looking for
those solutions that are goingto make it work and using who
you can when you can. Sometimesif you've got a parent volunteer,
don't put them in the classwhere their own child or
children are in but put them ina different class, and then you
might see a whole different sideof things as well. But yeah.
Jane (27:46):
That's right. Sometimes parents aren't the best placed
people to be supporting theirown
Eleisha (27:51):
Mm hmm.
Jane (27:51):
children, you know, when they have diverse learning needs.
They might be, you know, quiteanxious about their child's
progress. And that comparisonwith other students comes in and
that's not helpful for them. Andit's certainly not helpful for
the kids either. So, yeah, I'mnot quite sure whether that is a
solution that you probably wantto go down. I mean, I've sat
(28:14):
through the years and both mycolleagues will have here too
with with really anxious parentswho are really stressed and
worried about the lack ofacademic progress that their
child is is making and what weneed to get across to our
whānau is that schools are notjust academic, and that we want
our ākonga to be the besthumans that they can be. We want
(28:38):
to look wider than just howthey're doing on reading,
writing and maths. Yes, we wantto look at the progress and not
the achievement, but we want tosay, hey, your child might be
struggling with their reading,but I can guarantee you when
they're 30 they're going to beable to, you know, write their
own name and they're going tohave friends and try and focus
on the bigger things in life andthat they're a good human
(28:59):
because it can be tough for aparent. They get caught in this
advocacy role and it's prettystressful for
Eleisha (29:05):
Yeah,
Jane (29:05):
them. They want the best for their children.
John (29:08):
There's also the aspect of whakamā, that shame because
your child's acting out. Youknow, if you're actually sitting
there as a parent, seeing thatand seeing the effect on other
children, that's pretty toughcall on those parents too. But
it still as we said before whenyou actually have the whānau
engagement and the whānausupport, you can make huge
(29:30):
strides when you're both workingtogether towards the same goal
rather than still trying toactually work out how it's all
going to align because that'sjust wasted energy that should
be better channelled into tryingto make a difference for each
child.
Eleisha (29:44):
Definitely. I think I've asked all the questions but
I do want to ask, is thereanything that we haven't talked
about that we need to?
John (29:52):
I think the only thing I would add maybe as a conclusion
for me is I love the diversityin my school. To me, when a
child comes and presents withneeds from the outset, I value
that because it's those childrenthat teach my other children
about tolerance and caring andacceptance of difference and
understanding. And that childmakes those other children
(30:16):
better human beings because ofit. Innately, I don't see them
as being unwilling to acceptpeople who are different. They
are willing to take our littlegirl, previous wee girl we had
had more playdates and morebirthday party invitations, even
though she was non-verbal andshe was in a wheelchair because
(30:36):
they all the kids just loved her.She just beamed and she was a
ray of sunshine. You cannotlearn that in a textbook. You
can only learn it when you havean inclusive school that will
allow children to come in andblossom and other children to
blossom as well to make adifference for everybody.
Saane (30:54):
Mhm . Yeah.
Jane (30:55):
I'd just like to add in that not everything's all, all
doom and gloom if you're in aremote and small school, there's
some real advantages. But theopportunities that you can
provide for diverse learners, Imean the great thing in a two
teacher school or a sole chargeschool is you're not caught up
in that year level. And sostudents that might be a year
(31:16):
seven but actually are workingwithin level one of the
curriculum, they can work withthose other students and it's
it's not year level based sothere's not that stigma around
and and you can say to them, heywould you would you like to work
with these guys or would youlike to work on that with the
other students and giving themthat choice. And generally, the
students like your ORS students,they will choose to work with
(31:37):
the younger students becausethat's where they feel more
comfortable. So they've had achoice in that. But having said
that, they have the exposure tothe learning activities that the
other students in the class have.So that's a really positive
thing. And the other thing isthat generally the the classes
are smaller in rural schools.And so going forward, you know,
(32:00):
those those tips for new tumuaki,the big things I would say are
be the advocate because you willhave whānau who aren't capable
of the advocacy role. They don'tunderstand the education system.
They might be illiterate andneed that support. I can recall
in my first principal's role Iapplied three times for a
(32:20):
student for ORS funding and keepgetting turned down and in the
end I begged them. I was thatsqueaky wheel, I said right,
come out, come out to my schooland observe and got it across
the line and and getting thatletter of acceptance for ORS was
just it's huge. You know thesestudents really well so so be
that squeaky wheel, don't giveup. And the other thing is don't
(32:43):
recreate the wheel. You know youwill have tumuaki around you
that understand the system. WhenI arrived in that sole charge
school I couldn't work out why Icouldn't get the help and I
realized that the region thatour school sat in, the Ministry
of Education, was in one regionand the Ministry of Health was
in another region. So theydidn't talk to each other. So it
took me a long time to to sortthat problem out. But, you know,
(33:05):
there will be other schools thathave templates that you can use.
Don't don't reinvent the wheel,work smarter, not harder, and
build the relationships with thekey people you need to know and
talk to your tumuaki colleagues.
Saane (33:20):
Absolutely. You know, it's all about, as new leaders,
it's just creating that familylike context, right? So that
every child that you do enrolfeels like they feel included in
your school system. So they allneed to feel like they belong.
And you know, it's got to startright from the transitions.
You're not just enrolling thechild, you're enrolling
Eleisha (33:37):
Yeah.
Saane (33:38):
the whole family. And then just those collaborative
things you do together with yourstaff, you know, to take away
those challenges and turn theminto opportunities. So...
John (33:46):
Yeah, I would I would say too for me, I always maintain
that inclusion is a work of theheart, not a work of the head,
because if you're going to do it,just on, on the head, it's too
hard. But actually from theheart it's just benefit after
benefit and if after 30 years Istill go with pleasure to work
every day, it's got to be I'mnot in the criminally insane. I
(34:08):
do actually still rationalizeeverything pretty well, and it's
still the best job that's outthere. And it does make a
difference for kids and it makesa difference for me and my staff.
So.
Eleisha (34:18):
That's just really lovely. As I've said before,
there aren't many jobs where Ihave talked to, so many people
who just love what they do. It'sbeen a wonderful conversation.
I'm really grateful for yousharing your knowledge. So thank
you.
John (34:30):
Pleasure, all the best everyone.
Saane (34:32):
Yeah, thanks Eleisha
Eleisha (34:33):
Thank
Jane (34:33):
lot So.
Eleisha (34:33):
you.
Jane (34:33):
Yeah.
Eleisha (34:34):
In the next episode, we're changing gears. We're
going to be talking about themechanics of introducing new
curriculum teaching methods andlegislation to your kura. Mā te
wā.
Kia ora and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new tumuaki in Aotearoa NewZealand. I'm Eleisha McNeill.
All ākonga deserve theopportunity to flourish and
succeed in their education, andmaking sure your students have
this opportunity is your mostimportant priority as principal.
This means providing them withlearning support they need to
(00:29):
reach their potential. But howeasy is it to find the support
your students need? And what canyou do if you can't access it?
That's what we're going to talkabout today. Just a reminder,
you can find more informationabout this and other topics in
the e-learning modules andyou'll find a link to those in
the show notes. Here are myguests.
Saane (00:49):
Fakalofa lahi atu my name is Saane Faaofo Olderhaver, and
this year I am on a secondmentto the Ministry of Education as
the leadership advisor Pasifikaand I have the privilege of
working across Auckland withprincipals, and in my previous
life I am the tumuaki ofWeymouth Primary School here out
in South Auckland. Mālō.
John (01:08):
Tēna koutou katoa, ko John Bangma tōku ingoa, ko ahau
tumuaki o Te Kura Mairehau,Ōtautahi. I'm John Bangma. I'm
the have the privilege andpleasure of being the principal
of Mairehau Primary School,which is about 5 minutes north
east as the crow flies from theCathedral Square in Christchurch,
where I've been for the last 23years. And yeah, it's still a
(01:30):
job that I greatly enjoy, stillcome with pleasure to work every
day.
Jane (01:35):
Kia ora tātou, ko Jane Corcoran tōku ingoa, no
Whanganui ahau. Ko au te tumuakio Te Kura o Brunswick e
Whanganui. I'm Jane Corcoran. Iam the current principal of
Brunswick School, which is a U3school, about 12 minutes north
west of Whanganui, sittingamongst some of the most
beautiful paddocks in ourcountry. And I live about 20
(01:57):
minutes away on a New Zealandhorse thoroughbred farm. So I am
rural through and through andlove being a principal in a
rural school.
Eleisha (02:06):
That's cool, thank you. So as tumuaki, what is inclusive
education for you? What does itmean?
Saane (02:14):
It's really just about our children and young people,
making sure they feel accepted,making sure they enjoy those
positive relationships withlearners and teachers, and
they're able to be active andvisible members in a learning
community.
Eleisha (02:29):
John.
John (02:29):
I think for me, inclusion comes from the word included,
and when you're including people,you are accepting that they are
all going to be different,they're all going to be unique.
And we celebrate that diversitythat we have in our schools. So
we don't treat each child as thesame as everyone else. And
knowing that those children whohave issues, which is about 100%
(02:53):
of my school and every otherschool, actually enjoy school,
want to be at school and can'twait to come back each day. So
to me that's about inclusion.
Jane (03:03):
I tautoku all of that. It about the acceptance and the
diversity and also their rightto fully participate in
education and benefit from it,from education in any school
that they're part of.
Eleisha (03:19):
Definitely. And John, what does it mean to provide
adequate support for a childwith learning challenges?
John (03:27):
I think if you hold on to the word adequate and use that
as your pillar, you're going tobe disappointed every day. There
is never enough money, and evenif the resourcing was doubled or
tripled, it would still not beenough to actually meet all of
the needs out there. And themore that we know the tamariki
in our own schools, the morediversity we recognise, the more
(03:48):
needs that we see, the more thatwe want to be able to work ways
to help. So to me, adequate is,I guess, just an illusion that's
never going to be fulfilledentirely. But to know that you
are doing the best that youpossibly can for every child
with those needs I think isreally, really important and
making all the efforts you canto make that difference for that
(04:12):
child.
Eleisha (04:13):
Jane, what would you add?
Jane (04:14):
So John's correct. There is never going to be enough
resourcing
Eleisha (04:18):
Mm hmm.
Jane (04:18):
provided for to cater for the diverse leaders that we have
in our country. And so it'sabout being a really strong
advocate for those students andfor their whānau and just you
have to just keep going. And weknow that people are our
strongest asset and so beingable to bring together the
people that can help, that cando something. I heard something
(04:41):
recently this year, and it wasactually some advice given at a
conference by a parent about howprincipals can engage with
whānau of children with diverselearning needs or with trauma.
And she says as a parent, it'sreally important for principals
to realise that a parent doesn'tjudge you by your intentions.
(05:04):
They judge you by your actions.
Eleisha (05:05):
Mm hmm
Jane (05:06):
And I thought that's so important. That was a key
takeaway for me.
Eleisha (05:10):
Saane?
Saane (05:11):
Doesn't matter how much resources you put on, there's
never going to be enoughresource. And I guess it's just
supporting those schools to makesure they can deliver a, you
know, a rich curriculum and andthey can provide those physical
environments and and meet theneeds of every single learner
because, you know, the childrencoming in, the challenges are
because obviously the specialschools have closed, well they
(05:31):
haven't closed, they're justfull.
Eleisha (05:32):
Mm hmm.
Saane (05:33):
So all those children on those waiting lists are now
coming into the mainstreamschools, and we aren't as
well-equipped, obviously, as ourspecial schools to cater for
these kids. So I think theMinistry needs to think a little
bit more around what that'sgoing to look like in the
mainstream schools becausethat's not going to stop and
they're not going to open morespecial schools. So...
Eleisha (05:52):
Yeah ,
Saane (05:53):
Yeah.
Eleisha (05:53):
for sure. And if a if a child's starting in your school
and the teacher notices thatthey're not keeping up, where do
you start, and what are thesteps to getting them what they
need?
Jane (06:05):
I think that's really good if you've got teachers that are
that are noticing things for anew ākonga, and being able to
act on that quickly is reallygoing to help the student and
it's also going to help theteacher and then settle into
their learning environment. So Iguess you've got to listen to
the teacher and find out whattheir noticings are and I find
(06:28):
it really helpful to actually gointo the class. And if you're a
teaching principal, that'sreally easy because you are the
teaching principal, you're theirclassroom teacher, you're also
the SENCO as well. And then fromthere you have to identify, you
know, what are the needs, whatare the barriers, and then what
support do I need to get and howdo I get it, and there's,
there's various avenues that youcan do that, that might be
(06:49):
through your RTLB liaison person,it might be through special
education from the Ministry. Andit's really about who your
school and the regional team,the supports that you have out
there and the networks that youhave out there. Because what it
looks like in John's school willbe totally different
Eleisha (07:07):
Mm
Jane (07:07):
for the rest of us. And you might have a social worker
in your school, you might be alarger school and have access.
So a lot of it's about access.
Saane (07:16):
Absolutely. I think the lucky thing that when you're in
a bigger school, you have a DPwho technically might have that
role
Eleisha (07:21):
hmm.
Saane (07:21):
as a SENCO. So when you have an absolutely fantastic
SENCO and I'm blessed that we dohave one, you know, she works
above and beyond to try to makesure that we put in all those
supports. And she listens to ourteachers and she listens to our
teacher aides and she goes andshe tries to outsource whatever
they need in order to make thathappen for them in the classroom.
But I guess first and foremost,when the kids first come in,
(07:43):
it's just about building thoserelationships. You know, the
relationship with the child, therelationship with the family,
just so that they can understandas much as they possibly can so
they can determine what theyneed to go and get in regards to
support, so, yeah, know mebefore you teach me, sort of,
you know that relationships areso crucial.
Eleisha (08:03):
Definitely. John, would you what would you add to that?
John (08:05):
I would agree that getting to know the child is the most
imperative thing becausesometimes children will present,
but it's actually not an issue.It's just a confidence issue or
it's just getting familiar withbeing in a new environment.
Jane's right in terms of whenyou're in a larger school,
you've got other opportunitiesthere. We are all in
collaborative spaces in ourschool, so there's never one
(08:27):
adult alone with a group ofchildren. There are always
multiple. So we've got teams ofteachers, but also kaiāwhina
who are there as well. So thereare more eyes on any particular
child at any particular time.The expectations in our school
would be that you're actuallylooking to to understand what it
is that you're addressing beforeyou're actually looking for
something and doing everythingpossible within your own group,
(08:52):
in your own collaborative spaceto be able to work out how that
team can best support aparticular child. My mantra is
always children are not likecars. You don't send them away
to be fixed. Nobody's coming tofix a child. It's about actually
making a difference for thatchild and what you can do within
the resources that are there.When you employ kaiāwhina or
(09:16):
teacher aides, we have 13 fulltime, we get funded for about
five of them. The rest of themall come out of our operational
funding. I can afford to do thatbecause I'm in a large school.
When you're in a small ruralschool, it's often not an option.
I just think the challenges fora small rural school or for a,
for a sole charge school, andthere are so many of them that
(09:36):
are out there, the challengesare that much harder because
they don't have the financessitting behind them to be able
to make decisions like that, toemploy the numbers of people.
But there are resources that areout there. Getting access to
them is always a challenge. Thewait lists are a challenge. You
know, I am obviously a verystaunch supporter of the RTLB
(09:57):
service, being a lead schoolprincipal for our own cluster,
and they do an amazing job ofsupporting the teacher because a
teacher needs to do thingsdifferently. There is nowhere,
even even our little girl withcerebral palsy does not qualify
for full time support, eventhough if she doesn't have an
adult next to her, she cannotaccess things. She cannot move
(10:20):
because she can't power herselfto move around. It's just the
reality. And I think whilst I'mnot saying that we are hardened
to it, I guess we're just alittle bit more accepting that
we do everything we can to makea difference for every child and
work on what we can do and seeif we can get more resources, if
(10:41):
we can get it, but not use thatas an excuse not to do anything.
Jane (10:46):
Hmm, I agree with John. There's so many students out
there that are not receiving thelevel of support that they
should and the hours of supportthat they should. And that can
be a challenging conversation,particularly if you're new into
the principal role, with whānaubecause they see that their
child has these needs and theexpectation is my child has
(11:07):
these needs, they have a rightto be supported. And as we know,
that those specialists justaren't really available. There's
a shortage of our specialistsacross the country. So managing
those relationships and havingthose conversations and managing
the expectation is vital to ourleadership role. And it's with
the whānau, but also with ourteachers as well, like John said,
(11:30):
you know, someone's not justgoing to come in with the magic
potion and and fix the problemsthat we have in schools.
Saane (11:36):
I agree.
John (11:37):
I think it also leads to the problem with some of our
initial teacher education.Teachers that come out to teach
are not prepared for thediversity that's actually going
to confront them when they'recoming to their own into their
own space. They're not preparedfor all of the extra stuff,
they're they're okay withthey're going to teach a basic
maths lesson or a basic Englishlesson. But when it comes to all
(12:00):
of that other stuff that goeswith it, and that's why to me
the, the collaborative nature ofour school allows those that are
experienced to teach the youngerones coming through, to be able
to support them and help themwith the decisions, and that the
changes really that need to beaffected for each student.
Eleisha (12:21):
Yeah, definitely. You talked about the RTLB. Can you
tell me all about that, please?
John (12:27):
Absolutely. So RTLB are specialist teachers. So they
start as regular classroomteachers, they're experienced
teachers and they haveadditional training at Master's
levels for specialised teachingpractice. The RTLB is there to
support teachers, to supportteams, to support schools, to
(12:47):
make change for the better ofchildren. So they don't come in
and work with the child. Theycome in and work with the adults
that are involved with the child.They can provide some resourcing.
Sometimes they can provide someextra resourcing for getting
different equipment. Sometimesit can be to provide additional
(13:08):
learning support and by way ofkaiāwhina or teacher aides,
there's a whole raft of thingsthat they can actually support
with. But it's that knowledgeand getting teachers to find
their own solutions that aregoing to make a difference. If
they empower a teacher to workbetter with a particular child,
every child that comes to thatteacher's class from then on is
(13:32):
going to benefit from whatthey've actually been able to
achieve. They are roll-generatedin terms of numbers of children
across the country. There arecurrently 1007 RTLB across the
country and they are spreadacross 40 different clusters and
each cluster covers a geographicarea. So sometimes the RTLB are
(13:54):
based geographically, sometimesthey're centralised and it just
depends how how it works. Theymeet regularly as a team to
allocate cases. So it's arequest for service and could
take the form of looking foradditional help for an
individual child, for a smallgroup, for a class, for a team,
(14:15):
a syndicate, for a whole school.And that opportunity to support
can be as varied as the needsthat are there.
Saane (14:24):
I think it's really crucial that our principals that
just begin principalship reallyget to intimately know the
resource teaching and learningand behaviour system because
there is so much more that theyoffer that schools don't know
about, because they have so muchresource, it's amazing.
John (14:40):
And Jane talked about it before having a liaison. So
every school should have aliaison RTLB that you build a
relationship with. And myamazing DP who's also our SENCO,
we don't qualify for a learningsupport coordinator that she
meets on a fortnightly basiswith our with our liaison. So
(15:01):
they talk about it. Sometimesthose conversations are around
notice this about a particularchild. What do you think? And
that advice can be there withoutactually having to go through
that whole process. So it's agreat resource and it gets huge
in excess of 80% satisfactionrate every year of schools that
are very satisfied or satisfiedwith the service they get.
Eleisha (15:24):
So where do new principals go to get information
about RTLB?
John (15:29):
They can get it from, there's a website,
Eleisha (15:31):
Yeah.
John (15:31):
generally each RTLB has its own website as well. So the
Ministry website gives thegenerics about RTLB
Eleisha (15:37):
Mm hmm.
John (15:38):
what they they offer. But then there's the individual
clusters have their own as well.And when a new tumuaki is
appointed, I know that ourcluster manager makes an
appointment to actually go andvisit, it's a little bit more
challenging in some areas. Butfor us that works. But bear in
mind our cluster also covers theChatham and the Pitt Islands, so
(15:59):
we do go a little bit far aswell. They're not left out
because it's important.
Eleisha (16:03):
Definitely. And there's there's a really wide spectrum
of learning need in kura. Whatkinds of learning challenges
have you all seen? I mean,what's the most common if there
is such a thing?
Saane (16:16):
It would be hard to pinpoint. I mean we get lots of
children with autism that areenrolling. We get lots of ADHD,
ADD, the Ministry have thiswebsite that you can go on and
you click and it just gives youan A to Z of all the different
needs that are out there,because sometimes you don't even
know what the need is, becausesome children come and they are
like John and Jane have said,they're undiagnosed. So it's
(16:39):
trying to determine what is theactual need and where does it
fit. Not that we want to labelevery child, but it's trying to
find out what we need to do tosupport our teachers
Eleisha (16:48):
Yeah.
Saane (16:48):
and our and our support staff to be able to work to meet
the needs of all those children.So, look from A to Z.
Jane (16:56):
I think it would be fair to say that there has been an
increase in the numbers ofdiverse learners that are coming
through the school gate and asJohn talked about before, you
know, training for teachersdoesn't necessarily prepare
teachers for that.
Eleisha (17:10):
Mm
Jane (17:11):
And our more experienced teachers have had to really
nuance their practice becausenew behaviours are coming
through through the gate andinto classrooms that we haven't
experienced before as teachersand as as tumuaki. And you need
to take your time, like Johnsaid earlier, and build those
relationships and get to knowthose students. And because
(17:35):
there will be new situationsthat you need to navigate
through and you want to takethat carefully and safely for
everybody involved. You know,decisions have to be
mana-enhancing for everybody.And that can be challenging when
you are in a in a context thatyou haven't come across before,
that you haven't experienced.
John (17:56):
I've had to fill in forms in the past, and where it says
the number of children, forexample, the number of ORS
children, that's fine. That's adefinitive number.
Eleisha (18:05):
hmm.
John (18:06):
How many ESOL students we have, that's fine. I can put
those in as well. And then theysay, how many children in your
school have have needs? And Iput 100% - every child has needs.
It's just that some have moreneeds than others. And if we
recognise that then we stopthinking about the norm because
there is no norm,
Eleisha (18:24):
Yeah.
John (18:25):
it's just the diversity that's there. And even a child
who is academically able but shy,well, that's still a need but
that's not considered asignificant need that needs to
be addressed necessarily, butit's still an awareness of that.
I know for me that it's allbased on I'm ESOL, I didn't
speak a word of English till Iwent to school. I know what it's
(18:47):
like to be bullied and all ofthose those things. But that
also built who I am now in termsof when I became a principal, I
can do things about things. Andand when you click as a teacher
with those children who don'tfit in the box and then start
realising, actually the more Ithink about it, there are no
children in that box. They areall outside that box. Oh, why is
(19:09):
it that we're actually clickingwith those children? Well, it's
because we recognise thepotential that's in all of them.
We want the best for every child.We don't just focus on this
group or this group. But youknow, Jane said it's certainly
getting more. We've always in my30 years as a principal, we have
always had children with needs.The difference is that we're now
(19:30):
trying to do more about it, andI think we are certainly seeing
more of them coming through thegate.
Jane (19:36):
And I think you need to build up really strong support
systems within your kura becausethe help's not out there.
Eleisha (19:42):
Hmm
Jane (19:42):
So you've got to be able to provide the PLD and the
support to the people that areworking closely with the
students. You know, I faced apretty grim reality at the
beginning of the year when I wasasked by one of the support
agencies after we'd gone throughour special education needs
register to just select onestudent to put forward for
(20:02):
support.
Eleisha (20:03):
Wow.
Jane (20:03):
And that was heartbreaking for me because in a school of
over 100, there were so manystudents who needed referrals
put in and to be told that Ihave to limit to one student. It
was pretty hard. And then youhave to go and be able to
explain to those teachers whythe students in their class
couldn't have a referral made.And then you have to have the
conversations with whānau. Sothat's why I really think around
(20:27):
building your internal supportsin a school so you're not so
reliant on outside agencies isreally good. And you know, I
want to support what John saidabout RTLB, our cluster RTLB are
fantastic, it's about newtumuaki building that really
strong relationship with theirRTLB liaison alongside their
(20:47):
Ministry of Education supportperson. So what we do here is we
will have a meeting twice a termwith our RTLB liaison and our
Ministry learning support personand the teachers come into my
office and they rotate and theytalk around the students in
their class and the needs theyhave and they have that
opportunity to share how they'refeeling. And we can we can find
(21:10):
some solutions for that, whichworks really well. And when you
talk about what does that looklike, you know, we've talked
about it's not easy in anyschool. And we know for our
small and remote schools thatthis provides additional
challenges. So I'm 12 minutesfrom our regional offices, it
makes it easy for Ministry andRTLB to jump in the car. But if
(21:32):
you are an hour and a half fromWhanganui up a winding road,
it's not realistic. It's notpractical. So for those students
and schools there, you know,there are real geographical
barriers and there's really lotsof delays in response times
trying to navigate that. Andthat's where you've got to be a
little bit creative. You canstill have those hui, but
(21:54):
they'll be online. And just likewe're doing now, Covid brought
us so many things. And one ofthe advantages was being able to
to work in this in this virtualspace. So
Eleisha (22:03):
Hmm hmm.
Jane (22:04):
I highly recommend for tumuaki in those remote settings.
Don't give up, find a way, findsolutions to remove barriers to
getting that support.
Eleisha (22:14):
Yeah.
Saane (22:15):
I think it's so crucial, those innovations, because I see
that a lot as I've been workingin my role across Auckland. So
there's schools out there thatare not waiting for the resource,
cos you're right, it's this isnot coming fast enough. So there
are quite a few schools thatI've been to that are creating
their own, different learningspaces, and they're trialling
different things and they'rebringing children in and out. So
(22:36):
they're just trying to doeverything in their power within
their own schools to try andmeet the needs of all of their
children. And for some it looksdifferent. They've created
neurodiverse learning spaces.Others have done a lot more work
holistically around universaldesign for learning. So there's
been a few different thingshappening across Auckland
because you're right, theresource is there, but it's a
little bit stretched thin at themoment with the amount of
(22:59):
children we've got coming in.
Jane (23:01):
And sometimes you have great success at bringing
agencies together and you get aheap of support, but it's not
successful and that can bereally challenging. And the
reason that it's not successfulis, you know, we're asked to
deal with so manyuncontrollables. We're trying to
sort problems in school that areactually out of school problems.
And you can have all the supportavailable, but if everybody
(23:24):
that's involved isn't on thesame page or the same boat, you
know,it's not going to besuccessful for the tamariki. And
that can be that can be adifficult situation Yeah.
Eleisha (23:34):
For sure. And in an earlier interview, I spoke with
some rural principals who have,really struggled to find people
who, you know, you might have akaiāwhina for 10 hours a week
or something, but if they livean hour and a half away, it's
just not realistic for them todrive for for 3 hours a day for
for 2 hours of work. So, youknow, what do you do in
(23:57):
situations like that? How do youwork around that? Is that just
that being creative and thinkingof different ways to be able
support the kids who need it?
Jane (24:05):
I think in those really small schools, you know, John
touched on it earlier around
Eleisha (24:09):
Yes.
Jane (24:09):
the lack of finances. The two big things challenging small
and remote schools are the lackof financing and the lack of
staffing. And
Eleisha (24:16):
hmm.
Jane (24:16):
we know when we have children with diverse learning
needs or additional learningneeds, your biggest asset is
people, having the right peoplewrapped around them to support
and building those relationshipswith them. And that that is the
greatest challenge. And likeyou've said, how do you get
someone if they've got to travel2 hours away? And I guess, you
know, when I was a beginningprincipal, you're the jack of
(24:38):
all trades, you've just got tobe a bit of a MacGyver and and
do what you can and you willhave tamariki in your school,
the older students. So if you'resole charge you've got you know
your new entrants right throughto year eight in the same class.
And I was very privileged thatmy own children were in that
school, in that small schoolenvironment and and they were
(25:00):
great at helping those studentswith the diverse learning needs
and taking on those leadershiproles. And you can do that
because there's no you know,you're not in a year four class
and you're not in a year eightclass. You're all just one big
whānau and there's that tuakanateina. And you can use, there's
people in the community thatwant to come and volunteer and
support. And sometimes in thoseclose, tight knit communities,
(25:24):
there's real benefits, becausepeople have those strong
relationships and theyunderstand and they support.
Eleisha (25:29):
And parents as well. I imagine that, you know, parents
are pretty keen to help when itwhen it comes to their kids as
well.
John (25:35):
I think, there's a lot asked of parents, sometimes a
lot of parents are working. Andso that's a challenge. And so
you have to be careful. I'vealways struggled with using
parents to solve the problembecause that's partially why
they were also at school. Sothey get some independence away
from
Eleisha (25:53):
Mm
John (25:53):
the
Eleisha (25:53):
hmm.
John (25:53):
parents. And if a parent is there, I know with my own
grandchildren, when the parentsare there the child is different
than when the parents are notthere. So it's it's got to be
careful. We tapped into thelocal Ryman village and were
able to source a whole lot ofolder people there who were
rewiring and finding otherthings in life to do. Now
(26:14):
they're too busy. It's hard toactually get them. But it was
great when you can actually getpeople in there, we have the
local Rotary and they send sixpeople to come and listen to our
children reading. So there areopportunities there. The
challenge, of course, is thatour most difficult children are
asked.. We ask our kaiāwhina orour least trained people as
(26:36):
teacher aides to work with them.And yet they are the most
challenging children thatactually need to have the skills
of the teacher to be able to doit. But there's that constant
pull on where's it got to gofirst to make it work. And
sometimes solutions just comeout of the woodwork. You know,
we had a change of teacher for aparticular difficult child and
(26:59):
she came to the realization thatshe was spending too much time
looking at the negatives andnever enough on the positives
and started actually a bit OTTwith the positives. But this
child is actually changingbefore our eyes because instead
of being always slammed becauseeverything, still enough things
shouldn't be doing, but actuallynow growing, nobody would have
(27:21):
said, well, maybe you shouldfocus on the positive because we
just assume that's what peopledo. But it's about looking for
those solutions that are goingto make it work and using who
you can when you can. Sometimesif you've got a parent volunteer,
don't put them in the classwhere their own child or
children are in but put them ina different class, and then you
might see a whole different sideof things as well. But yeah.
Jane (27:46):
That's right. Sometimes parents aren't the best placed
people to be supporting theirown
Eleisha (27:51):
Mm hmm.
Jane (27:51):
children, you know, when they have diverse learning needs.
They might be, you know, quiteanxious about their child's
progress. And that comparisonwith other students comes in and
that's not helpful for them. Andit's certainly not helpful for
the kids either. So, yeah, I'mnot quite sure whether that is a
solution that you probably wantto go down. I mean, I've sat
(28:14):
through the years and both mycolleagues will have here too
with with really anxious parentswho are really stressed and
worried about the lack ofacademic progress that their
child is is making and what weneed to get across to our
whānau is that schools are notjust academic, and that we want
our ākonga to be the besthumans that they can be. We want
(28:38):
to look wider than just howthey're doing on reading,
writing and maths. Yes, we wantto look at the progress and not
the achievement, but we want tosay, hey, your child might be
struggling with their reading,but I can guarantee you when
they're 30 they're going to beable to, you know, write their
own name and they're going tohave friends and try and focus
on the bigger things in life andthat they're a good human
(28:59):
because it can be tough for aparent. They get caught in this
advocacy role and it's prettystressful for
Eleisha (29:05):
Yeah,
Jane (29:05):
them. They want the best for their children.
John (29:08):
There's also the aspect of whakamā, that shame because
your child's acting out. Youknow, if you're actually sitting
there as a parent, seeing thatand seeing the effect on other
children, that's pretty toughcall on those parents too. But
it still as we said before whenyou actually have the whānau
engagement and the whānausupport, you can make huge
(29:30):
strides when you're both workingtogether towards the same goal
rather than still trying toactually work out how it's all
going to align because that'sjust wasted energy that should
be better channelled into tryingto make a difference for each
child.
Eleisha (29:44):
Definitely. I think I've asked all the questions but
I do want to ask, is thereanything that we haven't talked
about that we need to?
John (29:52):
I think the only thing I would add maybe as a conclusion
for me is I love the diversityin my school. To me, when a
child comes and presents withneeds from the outset, I value
that because it's those childrenthat teach my other children
about tolerance and caring andacceptance of difference and
understanding. And that childmakes those other children
(30:16):
better human beings because ofit. Innately, I don't see them
as being unwilling to acceptpeople who are different. They
are willing to take our littlegirl, previous wee girl we had
had more playdates and morebirthday party invitations, even
though she was non-verbal andshe was in a wheelchair because
(30:36):
they all the kids just loved her.She just beamed and she was a
ray of sunshine. You cannotlearn that in a textbook. You
can only learn it when you havean inclusive school that will
allow children to come in andblossom and other children to
blossom as well to make adifference for everybody.
Saane (30:54):
Mhm . Yeah.
Jane (30:55):
I'd just like to add in that not everything's all, all
doom and gloom if you're in aremote and small school, there's
some real advantages. But theopportunities that you can
provide for diverse learners, Imean the great thing in a two
teacher school or a sole chargeschool is you're not caught up
in that year level. And sostudents that might be a year
(31:16):
seven but actually are workingwithin level one of the
curriculum, they can work withthose other students and it's
it's not year level based sothere's not that stigma around
and and you can say to them, heywould you would you like to work
with these guys or would youlike to work on that with the
other students and giving themthat choice. And generally, the
students like your ORS students,they will choose to work with
(31:37):
the younger students becausethat's where they feel more
comfortable. So they've had achoice in that. But having said
that, they have the exposure tothe learning activities that the
other students in the class have.So that's a really positive
thing. And the other thing isthat generally the the classes
are smaller in rural schools.And so going forward, you know,
(32:00):
those those tips for new tumuaki,the big things I would say are
be the advocate because you willhave whānau who aren't capable
of the advocacy role. They don'tunderstand the education system.
They might be illiterate andneed that support. I can recall
in my first principal's role Iapplied three times for a
(32:20):
student for ORS funding and keepgetting turned down and in the
end I begged them. I was thatsqueaky wheel, I said right,
come out, come out to my schooland observe and got it across
the line and and getting thatletter of acceptance for ORS was
just it's huge. You know thesestudents really well so so be
that squeaky wheel, don't giveup. And the other thing is don't
(32:43):
recreate the wheel. You know youwill have tumuaki around you
that understand the system. WhenI arrived in that sole charge
school I couldn't work out why Icouldn't get the help and I
realized that the region thatour school sat in, the Ministry
of Education, was in one regionand the Ministry of Health was
in another region. So theydidn't talk to each other. So it
took me a long time to to sortthat problem out. But, you know,
(33:05):
there will be other schools thathave templates that you can use.
Don't don't reinvent the wheel,work smarter, not harder, and
build the relationships with thekey people you need to know and
talk to your tumuaki colleagues.
Saane (33:20):
Absolutely. You know, it's all about, as new leaders,
it's just creating that familylike context, right? So that
every child that you do enrolfeels like they feel included in
your school system. So they allneed to feel like they belong.
And you know, it's got to startright from the transitions.
You're not just enrolling thechild, you're enrolling
Eleisha (33:37):
Yeah.
Saane (33:38):
the whole family. And then just those collaborative
things you do together with yourstaff, you know, to take away
those challenges and turn theminto opportunities. So...
John (33:46):
Yeah, I would I would say too for me, I always maintain
that inclusion is a work of theheart, not a work of the head,
because if you're going to do it,just on, on the head, it's too
hard. But actually from theheart it's just benefit after
benefit and if after 30 years Istill go with pleasure to work
every day, it's got to be I'mnot in the criminally insane. I
(34:08):
do actually still rationalizeeverything pretty well, and it's
still the best job that's outthere. And it does make a
difference for kids and it makesa difference for me and my staff.
So.
Eleisha (34:18):
That's just really lovely. As I've said before,
there aren't many jobs where Ihave talked to, so many people
who just love what they do. It'sbeen a wonderful conversation.
I'm really grateful for yousharing your knowledge. So thank
you.
John (34:30):
Pleasure, all the best everyone.
Saane (34:32):
Yeah, thanks Eleisha
Eleisha (34:33):
Thank
Jane (34:33):
lot So.
Eleisha (34:33):
you.
Jane (34:33):
Yeah.
Eleisha (34:34):
In the next episode, we're changing gears. We're
going to be talking about themechanics of introducing new
curriculum teaching methods andlegislation to your kura. Mā te
wā.
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