March 3, 2025 • 31 mins
Change is inevitable in a school, and managing change can be challenging. Changes you make may be a choice, where you identify improvements that can be made; or there may be changes to legislation, curriculum, or teaching methods that you need to implement in your school. Principals need to learn how to lead and manage change effectively.
My guests are:
- Iain Taylor, principal of Manurewa Intermediate School, former president of New Zealand Principals’ Federation, member of ERO Advisory Board, recipient of Prime Minister’s Supreme Educational Excellence Award in 2017.
- Ann Brokenshire, tumuaki of Hillmorton School in Christchurch since1995.
- Jason Miles, principal of Kaiapoi North School in Christchurch, current vice president of the New Zealand Principals’ Federation.
This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education as part of Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals.
You can learn more about this topic by accessing Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals e-learning modules on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz
Show notes
Episode themes:
- Change is constant in education, especially in curriculum as it needs to evolve. The tumuaki is the change manager in the process.
- The need to include others, especially senior leaders and teachers, along with you when change is necessary. Empower change champions who can help you promote the change.
- When you’re implementing changes you’re choosing to make you have more time to plan and bring people along for the journey. When change is thrown on you, like after a natural disaster for example, you need to be the decisive person leading the change. Depending on the situation your change leadership style will change.
- With legislation change, make sure you know exactly what you need to do, and make sure you communicate the change well to staff, students and whānau.
- When implementing change in a kura around curriculum, look at what you’re already doing then systematically look at the aspects you’re not currently covering, make those changes and ensure staff have PD for those things. Ensure you’re recording solid data around the results of the change.
- With systemic change in a school, sometimes there isn’t time to spend too long observing before you start making changes.
- Get your senior leadership team involved in change so they know how to manage it before they become a principal.
- New tumuaki can talk to experienced principals, NZSBA, principal associations etc if they’re unsure about change or need advice or support.
Questions
2:01 [All] What are some of the changes that you've had to deal with as tumuaki?
5:46 [All] Curricula evolve all the time. What kinds of curriculum changes have you been through, and how did you go about implementing them?
9:46 [All] You mentioned that people sometimes feel like things are being done to them, not with them. Is that one of the challenges when it comes to change within a school?
11:27 [All] How does the change process differ when you're a tumuaki than rather than a teacher or a senior leader in a kura?
13:20 [All] As a tumuaki there's a difference between making the changes that you choose to make, and making changes that you have to make. When you're making those changes, do you approach them differently? And if so, how, how does that approach differ?
16:42 [All] If you're trying to make a change that some of your kaiako or others don't agree with, how difficult can make things for you as tumuaki?
19:51 [All] In terms of practical things that you need to do in your kura when something is changed in legislation, what ch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eleisha (00:08):
Kia ora, and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new tumuaki in Aotearoa NewZealand. I'm Eleisha McNeill.
Change is inevitable in a school,and managing change is one of
the hardest and most complextasks tumuaki do. Changes you
make may be a choice where youidentify improvements that can
be made or there may be mandatedchanges around legislation,
(00:31):
curriculum or pedagogy that youneed to implement in your kura.
Today, we're talking about waysto work your way through change.
Just a reminder that there'slots of information in the
e-learning modules and you'llfind a link to those in the show
notes. Here are my guests.
Iain (00:46):
Kia ora, I'm Iain Taylor and I'm the principal at
Manurewa Intermediate School,where I'm into my 17th year as
principal. I've also been theprincipal of four other schools,
including an internationalschool in Singapore. And I am
passionate about leading schoolsand I love it. And it's the best
job in the world.
Ann (01:03):
Kia ora koutou, ko Ann Brokenshire tōku ingoa. He
tumuaki o ki Te Kura Tuarua oHoromaka. I'm Ann Brokenshire,
I'm principal at Hillmorton HighSchool in Christchurch. I've
been in the school and one roleor another since 1995, and I've
been tumuaki here since 2003. Wepost-quake we became a year 7 to
(01:26):
13 school rather than a 9 to 13high school. So that makes it
interesting, very interesting.Kia ora.
Jason (01:33):
Kia ora koutou, ko ahau tumuaki o Te Kura o Ruataniwha
Kaiapoi North School. Ko JasonMiles tōku ingoa. So I'm the
principal of Kaiapoi NorthSchool in North Canterbury. I've
been a principal in fourdifferent schools since 1996. A
two teacher school and two eightteacher schools. And now in with
(01:56):
a wonderful community of 530children year 1 to 8.
Eleisha (02:00):
Thank you. So I wanted to start by asking, because
you've all been principals forsuch a long time, you've all
worked in education for such along time, you will have seen a
massive range of changes in yourtime that you've either chosen
to make or you've had toimplement. So maybe I'll start
by asking you some of thechanges that you've had to deal
(02:22):
with in your careers,specifically when you've been
tumuaki. Ann, maybe start withyou.
Ann (02:29):
Sure. Probably the biggest change for us at Hillmorton High
was post-quake, and we shared aboundary with an intermediate,
which the Minister of Educationclosed and reconstituted our
school as a 7 to 13 compositeschool, that would be the
biggest overall change. So wenow go from ten or 11 year olds
(02:51):
to 18 year olds.
Eleisha (02:52):
Wow. That's a massive change. How do you go about
implementing something like that?Did the ministry give you
guidance around that or...
Ann (03:00):
We got money, we got some money, and there were three
schools in the same boat, threehigh schools in Christchurch
that all went 7-13. So yes, wedid get some support, so we got
someone to work alongside us,that came from a 7 to 13 school
in Invercargill. We visitedInvercargill. We had Karen
(03:20):
Sewell, who ex ERO etcetera. Shewas brought in to sort of be a
conduit, I suppose, between usand the minister, and that was
pretty good. We had enoughsufficient funding and we went
to Melbourne, and we had areally, really good look at some
of the larger schools inMelbourne and what they were
doing and how they were copingand then we came back and
designed our curriculum.
Eleisha (03:39):
Oh that's fantastic. What about you Jason. What kinds
of changes have you beeninvolved with implementing.
Jason (03:45):
Yes I've certainly been through the earthquake change as
well. We didn't have any schoolsthat we merged with, but we had
to rebuild half of the school.
Eleisha (03:56):
Mhm.
Jason (03:56):
And at that time we looked at collaborative teaching
and flexible learningenvironments because we knew
that the new build was going tobe in that format.
Eleisha (04:05):
Mhm.
Jason (04:06):
So we looked at some schools that are already started
that process, looked at someresearch from Australia, and
then we asked some keenchampions who would love to try
it to pilot it in their spaces.They were still single cell
classrooms, but we wanted themto start teaching
collaboratively, so we took outa couple of walls and asked them
(04:28):
to give it a go. And the greatthing about doing it that way
was that we could see it in ourown environment and those
teachers would report back tothe rest of the teachers about
progress and the benefits thatthey had seen. And that whole
process led to us having areally good idea about the
design that we wanted in ourspaces. So yeah, that stepped
(04:52):
process worked really well inthat instance.
Eleisha (04:56):
And what about you, Ian? What kinds of changes have you
been involved in?
Iain (05:00):
So the changes that I've been involved in are around
school competency, I guess. Thisis my 33rd year as a principal I
think and most of my jobs, infact, all of them bar one, were
change jobs of either a totalbrand new start up which was way
easier actually than fixing asituation, or there was a number
(05:22):
of schools where there was lotsof dynamics going wrong,
dysfunctional staff, fallingrolls, property, no money, a
whole range of differentsystemic issues. And that's the
change I love because you can goin there and you can make
something happen really, reallyquickly. And that's an exciting
form of change, especially whenyou get the staff who are
(05:43):
wanting to be there on board aswell.
Eleisha (05:45):
Yeah. And what about curriculum changes. I mean
curricula evolve all the time.What kinds of curriculum changes
have you been through?
Jason (05:54):
Well, the only constant in education is change I think.
It is always evolving andeducation needs to evolve. So
certainly been through threemajor curriculum changes, so at
this time it's really importantfor you to be as informed as you
can about the changes that arebeing proposed. And get
(06:19):
champions along, get yourliteracy leaders, get your maths
leaders,
Eleisha (06:22):
hmm. Mm
Jason (06:23):
your leaders in other curriculum areas so that they
can learn more and know more andthen lead that change within
your own school. Look at whatyou're doing well already and
see how that is already shapedup in the new curriculum. Also,
you know, we're self-managingschools, so we need to make the
(06:44):
decisions and calls aroundwhat's best for our school. In
2018, for example, in English,our results weren't improving
despite the best efforts of allof our our teachers. We
researched and got advice andlooked into structured literacy,
and it was 2018 - it wasn'treally a thing then. So we were
(07:09):
sticking our neck out and givingit a go. But again, we used a
stepped approach where we hadleaders learn more about it.
Then we had two classroomsgiving it a a go with our
children. We saw the resultspretty instantly
Eleisha (07:24):
Yeah.
Jason (07:25):
with that work and then we brought the rest of school
along. So whenever you'relooking at curriculum change,
it's really important to to dothe research, to get the experts
involved. Look, look within whatyou're already doing
Eleisha (07:38):
hmm.
Jason (07:39):
and what strengths you have, and then bring the rest of
the team along.
Eleisha (07:43):
What about you Ann?
Ann (07:45):
And I think of one of the more recent changes that's
affected year 7-10, really, sothe middle school would be the
mandated introduction ofAotearoa, New Zealand histories
Eleisha (07:55):
mm.
Ann (07:56):
and what I heard Jason say all the way through, he used the
word we, and I think that thatis an incredibly important thing,
tha people don't feel as thoughthe changes are being done to
Eleisha (08:06):
Yeah.
Ann (08:06):
them, even
Eleisha (08:07):
Mm.
Ann (08:07):
though with mandated curriculum change that is the
case. We sort of did the samething. So I had my head of
social science and my head ofyear seven and eight, they
worked together so that wemanaged to have a curriculum
that went from seven through
Eleisha (08:21):
Mm.
Ann (08:21):
to ten.
Eleisha (08:23):
Mm
Ann (08:23):
We built it into our social studies curriculum alongside
quite a change in pedagogy forthat in terms of being, as much
as we can, culturally responsiveand relational.
Eleisha (08:35):
hmm.
Ann (08:36):
But we also we're not part of a Kāhui Ako, but we're part
of a cluster. And we've broughtthose early adopters from the
cluster together where we couldreally share resources right
across the cluster. That workingtogether just meant that people
weren't left having to reinventthe wheel themselves. They could
really share resources, worktogether, and obviously iwi had
(08:59):
a part to play with the culturalnarrative, which was gifted to
us by Ngāi Tahu in this area.And that's really informed our
place based education aroundthat curriculum. I think we were
really fortunate in that ourteachers, we'd done a lot of
work around cultural bias andequity and those sorts of things.
(09:19):
So they saw this as anopportunity to affect change
that was wider than simplycurriculum,
Eleisha (09:26):
Mm hmm.
Ann (09:26):
but it allowed all of our young people actually to see
where they stood and how theyfitted into that curriculum. So
in many ways it was a it wasn'teasy. There was a lot of work to
do because you had to change howyou were teaching and what you
were teaching. But we had thehearts and minds of our teachers
right there.
Eleisha (09:43):
Yeah.
Ann (09:43):
And so that made it easier because they wanted to do it.
Eleisha (09:46):
Yeah. You mentioned before, you know, that people
sometimes feel like things arebeing done to them, not with
them. Is that one of thechallenges when it comes to
change within a school?
Ann (09:57):
Oh, I'd say definitely. You know, as a, tumuaki or principal
for me, I'm in a school ofsitting on 1300. I don't teach
now. And so I have to workthrough others to affect what
happens in classrooms. So thatconsultation, with your teachers
in particular, but also boards,you know, whānau, our young
(10:19):
people have a really strongvoice and actually working with
them and getting that feedbackfrom them is hugely important.
But I work through others. Idon't go into that classroom and
teach. So to have people onboard and really willing to go
with it is to me is hugelyimportant. Otherwise it fails.
Eleisha (10:37):
Yeah, for sure.
Jason (10:38):
Yeah, I think in principalship there's always the
reliance on relationships in aschool and before any change can
be effective, you need to havestrong relationships throughout
the school, staff but also withthe community. You build trust
and you get people wanting towork together.
Iain (11:00):
Yeah, when you're making that change you do need to bring
people with you because it makessure that change is systemic and
it stays even if you've thengone. And when I say people, I
don't mean everybody, you'vejust got to get those shining
lights that you can see straightaway are caring about the school.
They're interested in the kids.They want to be there and you
get them onside and they're yoursort of core group of people
(11:22):
that you can use to push therest of the change.
Eleisha (11:26):
Definitely. How does the change process differ when
you're a tumuaki, than whenyou're going through it as a
teacher or a senior leader in akura?
Jason (11:35):
I think as a teacher you've got a role in any change
process. But for some teachers,it's it's larger than others. It
depends on the strengths and theinterest of the teacher. If
they're involved in a literacyteam, for example, and you're
changing your English curriculum,then they'll have a larger role
in that learning andprofessional development to take
(11:58):
back to the staff. But as atumuaki, you are the overarching
change manager, as Ann saidbefore, you're relying on your
people in your school who havethose skills and enthusiasms to
help you lead that change.
Ann (12:15):
Yeah, I'd agree with you and I think the difference
between being say tumuaki or asenior leader is that, we have
that overall responsibility andwe are, you know, responsible to
our to our students and theirlearning, you know, as well as
their whānau, but in particular,I think to those to those young
people. And so listening to themas things go through is really
(12:36):
important, and to involve yourteam.
Eleisha (12:39):
Yip.
Ann (12:40):
You know, principalship, people talk about it being
lonely, but if you've got areally good senior leadership
team and you've got that abilityto put things on the table, not
own them, absolutely discussthem, argue about them, really
robustly so that you getsomething better and then spread
that out further and startlistening to the teachers. What
(13:02):
do they think about it? Becausethe wisdom doesn't just sit with
us ever
Eleisha (13:06):
Yeah.
Ann (13:07):
and it's so important to involve others. And I would say,
particularly those who areclosest to having to make the
change themselves, that if wedon't listen to them, it could
be a lost cause.
Eleisha (13:20):
Yeah, for sure. And as a tumuaki there's a difference
between making the changes thatyou choose to make, and and
making changes that you have tomake. So when you're making
those changes, do you approachthem differently? And if so, how,
how does that differ?
Jason (13:37):
So when you're in charge of the change process, or you're
choosing to make that change,you can plan things a lot better
with your team, looking aheadand thinking about the signposts
that you need to hit all the waythrough. And when change is
thrown on you, such as theearthquakes or no phone mandate,
(13:57):
for example, you've got to thinkclearly about what is important
at that time. What's the mostimportant things that we need to
do as a team to make that changehappen
Eleisha (14:09):
Hmm hmm
Jason (14:10):
and then talk with your team, make it clear about what
what that is, and thencommunicate really clearly to
those people who need it themost. So in any emergency
situation or any urgent change,you've got to assess and
evaluate the most importantthings to do first
Eleisha (14:33):
hmm hmm
Jason (14:33):
and then you can start planning out the rest of it. But
the immediate response is reallyimportant.
Ann (14:40):
I'd agree with you, Jason, and I think if we looked at
those Christchurch earthquakes,there are certain times when you
don't have the luxury of time toplan and to gather people around
you who are like-minded orcritical so that you get a good
answer. And they're the times inthose emergencies where you've
actually got to put up the flagand say follow me,
Eleisha (15:01):
hmm.
Ann (15:01):
this is what we're doing. And I think that's what people
need, you know, at a time of ofa crisis or an emergency, they
need you to be that person whodoes say, follow me. It's very,
very different to mandatedchange or in fact, when you
choose to change and you've gottime,
Eleisha (15:19):
Hm. Hmm.
Ann (15:20):
I think the difference between those, they're probably
more similar than in a crisissituation where you just have to
lead.
Eleisha (15:27):
Yeah. Iain, what would you add to that?
Iain (15:30):
Yeah. And I guess you've got to create enabling
mechanisms for people to be ableto adjust to whatever the change
might be. And also realisingthat depending what it is, I
mean the Christchurchearthquakes are different to the
scenario of a school in crisisas such, you've got to realise
as a change agent, you've got tocare more about the people than
they care about you. So I meanthat's something I always
(15:53):
consider when you're introducingsomething new or doing something
that can be cataclysmic for somepeople, they don't care about
you, so you've got to sort ofcare a bit more about them than
they do of you to enable you tobe able to initiate that change
I reckon. And that can besometimes hard, especiall in the
situations I've been in, inschools that are in strife, I've
got to care about the kidsbecause the kids are getting a
(16:14):
raw deal. So sometimes thechange process is top down and I
think I heard someone sayingthat before.
Eleisha (16:20):
Mm hmm.
Iain (16:21):
So depending on the situation, your style is going
to change and if it's a realcrisis and there's a dilemma
that's got to be addressed realquickly from a competency or a
structural perspective withinthe school, not the crisis like
Christchurch, then sometimesyou've got to be the situational
leader who's going to be toughand just do as you're told and
let's get on with it
Eleisha (16:42):
And how easy is it to do that? You know, if you're
trying to make a change thatperhaps some of your kaiako
don't agree with or or otherpeople don't agree with, how
difficult can make things foryou as tumuaki.
Iain (16:56):
They can make it very difficult and and that's why
you've got to use your ownpersonality, I guess, to get a
core group of people on sidewhen you're trying to instigate
change so that those otherpeople are actually your
instigators if you like, they'rethe passionators of the change
that you want to affect, becausethere are always going to be
people who don't want to change,always,
Eleisha (17:17):
hmm.
Iain (17:18):
for whatever reason. And sometimes it's genuine reasons
that they just feel they justcan't handle it. And then you
respond differently to thosepeople, I guess. But you've got
to get a real core group ofpeople to be the the champions,
if you like, of whatever it isyou're trying to champion to
change things for the bettermentof kids. So yeah, it's bloody
hard.
Eleisha (17:37):
Yeah. Jason and Ann have you have you managed to
mobilize groups of people likethat?
Ann (17:42):
I think it's, as Iain said, it's absolutely essential. And I
think sometimes that's about,you know, I'm looking at a
change right now and I made aconscious decision before I did
anything to go out and talk tostaff who I think are wise, and
staff who might have a differentopinion to me so that I could
(18:02):
really hear from a whole rangeof perspectives what was going
on before I made up my mind that,yep, actually we do need to do
this. I think maybe we do. But Iwanted to hear from other people
first when it's not mandated,it's something that I think we
need to do to really, reallylisten.
Eleisha (18:19):
Mm hmm.
Ann (18:20):
And listening to those who maybe have been around a while,
those who are new, those who Iknow will disagree just for the
sake of disagreeing with me.
Iain (18:30):
And they're the hard ones to deal with.
Ann (18:33):
They're great to talk to though. So yeah, I think it's
really, really important toinvolve others in both process
and in actual decision making.
Jason (18:44):
Yeah, I think you have summed that up really well, I'm
not sure who said it, but Iheard I heard a quote of don't
go into leadership to be liked.If you want to be liked, go and
sell ice cream because that'snot what you expect as a leader.
You're there as a leader to dothe right thing based on
(19:06):
everything that you know and thepeople around you. So don't
expect to be liked. Just go inand do the best that you you
think you can do.
Iain (19:17):
And if you can try and empower a handful of people to
make sure that they areaddressing whatever the
expectations are of what you'retrying to change and when
they're successful, if you'regiving those people their moment
of glory or they'reacknowledging their skill set or
whatever it is you you've triedto change, then that makes it
(19:38):
easier the next time as well.Because other staff are seeing
you acknowledging people whohave got in behind something or
led something and it makes iteasier the next time and then
even easier the next time and soon and so on.
Jason (19:50):
It's all
Eleisha (19:51):
Yeah, for sure. Just in terms of practical things that
you need to do in your kura whensomething, for example, is
changed in legislation like thethe cell phone legislation. Can
you talk me through just the,like, practically how that works
in your kura? What changes doyou need to put in place to make
sure that you can comply withthat legislation as tumuaki and
(20:15):
as part of your school board?
Jason (20:17):
Well, the first step is making sure you know exactly
what you're being asked to doand being clear in your mind
about what that would mean foryour your school, your situation.
There might be some things thatyou're already doing, for
example, in the phone mandate,there wasn't too many changes
required for most primaryschools. We were already doing a
(20:38):
lot of that, but it was makingsure that you looked at your
current procedures and put themagainst the mandate and I guess
look for any changes that wereneeded. And then as we've
already said the communicationpart, checking that everyone
understands that the changesthat are going to be made and
how we're going to do that inwithin the timeframes.
Eleisha (21:00):
How was that within a high school, Ann?
Ann (21:02):
Look, actually, if we look at that particular one, our
board proposed to that for us tobe cellphone free four years ago
and we took a whole year and wehad really thorough consultation,
we did a whole lot of workaround it, and then the board
mandated that change to me. Butby then we had looked at policy,
(21:23):
procedure, but more importantly,the why. It was a very, very
easy change for staff becauseculture in the classroom changed
overnight, just like that forthe vast majority of kids. And
what we've found is thatprincipals are really, really
generous and principals by andlarge, want to collaborate. And
so we've shared all of thatmaterial with anybody who's
(21:44):
asked for it from across thecountry. And so I think that's
one of the things that if you'rea new principal and you're not
sure, you know, ask a colleague,you know, ask a principal
colleague for that advice. Andwhat I've found is the
generosity is huge acrossprincipals. So you don't have to
actually do this stuff aloneever.
Eleisha (22:07):
So what about when there's a requirement to make
changes to the school curriculum?How does that process work?
Iain (22:14):
I'd suggest that something like that is easier because we
know exactly what we have to do.
Eleisha (22:19):
Yeah.
Iain (22:19):
Forget about whether you agree with it or not. It's
mandated. We're told this iswhat have to do. It's something
that you can't not do.
Eleisha (22:27):
hmm.
Iain (22:27):
There's just one way to do it, ri? We've got to be
reflective about how we do itmaybe, but we've just got to get
on with it and do it.
Jason (22:33):
It's about making sure that everyone keeps calm and
carries on as well. You know,we're not changing everything.
We're looking at a newcurriculum. We compare that with
what we're currently doing andthen we systematically look at
the aspects that we need toinvestigate, have professional
development in and potentiallychange. You start with what
(22:54):
you're doing now, what's workingfor you now and then working on
the aspects that you may not becurrently covering in those
curriculum.
Ann (23:04):
I think probably what I'd add to that is as you're making
those changes supposedly toimprove learning, the use of
data as you go through to showwhether it is or isn't working
is absolutely essential, and if,if teachers and our young people
can see the positives andpositive change in student
learning, then the buy-in isimmediate. It's actually working,
(23:26):
let's keep going. If it's notthen you've got to have a really
good look at the why not, do wejust, is it time, is it a slight
tweaking of a system, is it achange, what do we need?
Eleisha (23:37):
Sure. Iain you mentioned before going into a
school and making kind ofsystemic changes to the way the
kura works - I can't evenimagine how difficult that is.
But, but where do you even start,is it, you know, as Jason's
talked about, just sitting andwatching and and looking for a
while to see what's wrong?
Iain (23:55):
Yeah, I mean, the common management or leadership theory
around change isn't it that yousit and wait for a couple of
terms or a year before youinstigate change. But I guess it
depends on how severe the needfor that change is. I mean I
would definitely recommend topeople that they sit and watch
for a little while, without adoubt. But that can also have a
double edged sword effectbecause if you wait too long and
(24:19):
you're building relationshipswith people, when you do have to
instigate change, sometimes youare going to upset those people
that you've built relationshipswith. Suddenly you are changing
their world on them and they'llfeel like you've been deceiving
them. I've had that experiencein my time of trying to change
something at school because Iwaited too long. So depending on
the situation, what the changeis, I think sometimes you've got
(24:41):
to invariably go in hard andfast and quick. And I know
that's not the commonrecommendation and leadership
theory or management theory orwhatever you like, but sometimes
you do need to.
Jason (24:51):
Yeah, I agree with that. I've had that experience at a
previous school where thingswere really broken and you
couldn't just leave them. Ithink to be a good leader
sometimes you got to be like amoth and fly towards the light
and make those brave decisionsearly on and and see essentially
(25:12):
what is broken and really putyour time and energy into that
so that, you know, you can startto move on.
Iain (25:20):
And sometimes when that change is needed, often times
people don't recognise that theyneed to change or the system
needs to change or the structurein the school needs to change.
So being upfront with them rightat the beginning can sometimes
have a really positive effect aswell.
Ann (25:37):
I think the danger comes when you're talking about a
brand new principal who's had noexperience in change management,
and I think in smaller schoolsin particular, if they're going
into a smaller school where theymay not have had senior
leadership experience, that'soften a really difficult time
for a school. And I think thenit's just so important that
(25:58):
those new principals havesomeone that they can throw
ideas around with that might befrom outside of the school, a
more experienced principal. Ithink that that mentoring and
coaching of new principals isessential work because it's a
very, very difficult thing forsomeone. Even even, I think if
they have been in a largerschool with a larger senior
(26:18):
leadership team where they'vebeen allowed to make those
changes.
Eleisha (26:21):
hmm.
Ann (26:21):
You know, so my three deputy principals get to work
through change and to lead thatchange. But there's a lot of our
new principals haven't had thoseexperiences.
Jason (26:31):
You know, I believe, truly believe it's our job as
principals to include deputyprincipals in any change that's
happening in the school so theycan see and experience what's
needed for that difficult changewithin the school before they
get to a principalship. So yeah,we need to help and grow and
(26:52):
develop our leaders as well.
Eleisha (26:55):
Yeah. And Ann you mentioned there, new tumuaki,
leaning on experiencedprincipals. Where else can new
tumuaki go for information or,you know, to learn how to manage
change within their new kura? .
Ann (27:09):
Look, I think the very best thing that they can do is find
someone that they trust thatthey can talk things through
with. So to me, there's a coupleof types of support, one's a
another principal or makingabsolutely sure they go to their
principal association meetings,so they start to get to know
people and that they're not toolonely and they realise actually
(27:30):
there's a whole lot of people inthis room who I can talk to. If
they run into trouble sometimesit's, with a couple of people
that I work with it's about notme telling them what to do, but
me telling them where to get theadvice around process. Because
if you don't get process right,you can end up in serious
trouble as a principal. So to meit might be New Zealand School
(27:54):
Boards Association, it might bein cases of secondary, if
they're a member of SPANZ, forexample, it might be the lawyer,
it might be the union, unlessthere's a conflict of interest.
Eleisha (28:04):
hmm hmm
Ann (28:05):
So to me those sorts of things are really important. And
then I think, and a lot ofpeople don't do this, and they
don't necessarily like the wordsupervision, but having someone
that you can go to that'spotentially even right outside
of education, where you canactually talk through that
emotional toll on yourself. It'shard not being liked. You know,
(28:26):
as human beings, we sort of wantto be liked. And so when you
know that you're going to makesome really tough decisions
that's going to affect people'slives and livelihood and how
they work, they're really bigthings to do. So I think for me,
it's really important to havesomewhere you can go where you
can talk freely about that andlook after your own wellbeing.
Iain (28:47):
And I think new new principals need to know as well
that change is constant. Getthat in your head, know that
that's going to be the case sothat you're not thrown when more
change or something comes yourway. And that with that change,
hopefully and with thatdetermination, we're constantly
getting better. So there's nopoint having change for change
(29:08):
sake, we're changing somethingbecause we want to get better.
And also realise that no oneschool or one leader has all the
answers ever and no one createschange out of their head all on
their little lonesome. It'smagpied from a whole lot of
other places. So it doesn'tmatter that you're sharing
(29:29):
knowledge or getting informationfrom other people to make a
change in your environment, aslong as it's contextual in what
you're using from other places.None of us have all the answers
and we need to be saying thatright from the beginning. So, so
a new principal needs to knowit's not expected of them to
know everything. Cos they'rebloody never going to know
everything.
Jason (29:46):
Yeah, well said Iain, that's that's crucial, and the
contextual aspect is soimportant because you may have
come from a school that's acompletely different context to
the one that you're in and youneed to know your context and
know what whatever change isthrown at you ah what that will
mean to that context. So youmight have a really trusted
(30:09):
colleague down the road thatyou've had in a previous region,
but they might not be the rightperson to go to. So your local
contacts and relationships withyour regional principals becomes
really important in thosesituations when the change is is
contextual.
Iain (30:28):
And I think you as a leader, you have to have a
really, really clearly definedphilosophy in terms of how the
way you work and what your moralconvictions are as your leader
to to be able to cope with allthose continuing dilemmas of
change, etc., etc.. And thatenables you to keep on course,
right, whatever the problem isor whatever the purpose is. If
(30:50):
you have those real moralconvictions or whatever you want
to call it, then that enablesyou to be a more effective
change agent.
Eleisha (30:57):
Fantastic advice. Thank you all so much for your time
and for sharing your knowledge.
Ann (31:01):
Cheers. Thank you very much. Thank you.
Jason (31:03):
Cheers thank you
Eleisha (31:04):
Thanks. In the next episode, we're talking about
what you can expect when the EROvisits. Mā te wā.
Kia ora, and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new tumuaki in Aotearoa NewZealand. I'm Eleisha McNeill.
Change is inevitable in a school,and managing change is one of
the hardest and most complextasks tumuaki do. Changes you
make may be a choice where youidentify improvements that can
be made or there may be mandatedchanges around legislation,
(00:31):
curriculum or pedagogy that youneed to implement in your kura.
Today, we're talking about waysto work your way through change.
Just a reminder that there'slots of information in the
e-learning modules and you'llfind a link to those in the show
notes. Here are my guests.
Iain (00:46):
Kia ora, I'm Iain Taylor and I'm the principal at
Manurewa Intermediate School,where I'm into my 17th year as
principal. I've also been theprincipal of four other schools,
including an internationalschool in Singapore. And I am
passionate about leading schoolsand I love it. And it's the best
job in the world.
Ann (01:03):
Kia ora koutou, ko Ann Brokenshire tōku ingoa. He
tumuaki o ki Te Kura Tuarua oHoromaka. I'm Ann Brokenshire,
I'm principal at Hillmorton HighSchool in Christchurch. I've
been in the school and one roleor another since 1995, and I've
been tumuaki here since 2003. Wepost-quake we became a year 7 to
(01:26):
13 school rather than a 9 to 13high school. So that makes it
interesting, very interesting.Kia ora.
Jason (01:33):
Kia ora koutou, ko ahau tumuaki o Te Kura o Ruataniwha
Kaiapoi North School. Ko JasonMiles tōku ingoa. So I'm the
principal of Kaiapoi NorthSchool in North Canterbury. I've
been a principal in fourdifferent schools since 1996. A
two teacher school and two eightteacher schools. And now in with
(01:56):
a wonderful community of 530children year 1 to 8.
Eleisha (02:00):
Thank you. So I wanted to start by asking, because
you've all been principals forsuch a long time, you've all
worked in education for such along time, you will have seen a
massive range of changes in yourtime that you've either chosen
to make or you've had toimplement. So maybe I'll start
by asking you some of thechanges that you've had to deal
(02:22):
with in your careers,specifically when you've been
tumuaki. Ann, maybe start withyou.
Ann (02:29):
Sure. Probably the biggest change for us at Hillmorton High
was post-quake, and we shared aboundary with an intermediate,
which the Minister of Educationclosed and reconstituted our
school as a 7 to 13 compositeschool, that would be the
biggest overall change. So wenow go from ten or 11 year olds
(02:51):
to 18 year olds.
Eleisha (02:52):
Wow. That's a massive change. How do you go about
implementing something like that?Did the ministry give you
guidance around that or...
Ann (03:00):
We got money, we got some money, and there were three
schools in the same boat, threehigh schools in Christchurch
that all went 7-13. So yes, wedid get some support, so we got
someone to work alongside us,that came from a 7 to 13 school
in Invercargill. We visitedInvercargill. We had Karen
(03:20):
Sewell, who ex ERO etcetera. Shewas brought in to sort of be a
conduit, I suppose, between usand the minister, and that was
pretty good. We had enoughsufficient funding and we went
to Melbourne, and we had areally, really good look at some
of the larger schools inMelbourne and what they were
doing and how they were copingand then we came back and
designed our curriculum.
Eleisha (03:39):
Oh that's fantastic. What about you Jason. What kinds
of changes have you beeninvolved with implementing.
Jason (03:45):
Yes I've certainly been through the earthquake change as
well. We didn't have any schoolsthat we merged with, but we had
to rebuild half of the school.
Eleisha (03:56):
Mhm.
Jason (03:56):
And at that time we looked at collaborative teaching
and flexible learningenvironments because we knew
that the new build was going tobe in that format.
Eleisha (04:05):
Mhm.
Jason (04:06):
So we looked at some schools that are already started
that process, looked at someresearch from Australia, and
then we asked some keenchampions who would love to try
it to pilot it in their spaces.They were still single cell
classrooms, but we wanted themto start teaching
collaboratively, so we took outa couple of walls and asked them
(04:28):
to give it a go. And the greatthing about doing it that way
was that we could see it in ourown environment and those
teachers would report back tothe rest of the teachers about
progress and the benefits thatthey had seen. And that whole
process led to us having areally good idea about the
design that we wanted in ourspaces. So yeah, that stepped
(04:52):
process worked really well inthat instance.
Eleisha (04:56):
And what about you, Ian? What kinds of changes have you
been involved in?
Iain (05:00):
So the changes that I've been involved in are around
school competency, I guess. Thisis my 33rd year as a principal I
think and most of my jobs, infact, all of them bar one, were
change jobs of either a totalbrand new start up which was way
easier actually than fixing asituation, or there was a number
(05:22):
of schools where there was lotsof dynamics going wrong,
dysfunctional staff, fallingrolls, property, no money, a
whole range of differentsystemic issues. And that's the
change I love because you can goin there and you can make
something happen really, reallyquickly. And that's an exciting
form of change, especially whenyou get the staff who are
(05:43):
wanting to be there on board aswell.
Eleisha (05:45):
Yeah. And what about curriculum changes. I mean
curricula evolve all the time.What kinds of curriculum changes
have you been through?
Jason (05:54):
Well, the only constant in education is change I think.
It is always evolving andeducation needs to evolve. So
certainly been through threemajor curriculum changes, so at
this time it's really importantfor you to be as informed as you
can about the changes that arebeing proposed. And get
(06:19):
champions along, get yourliteracy leaders, get your maths
leaders,
Eleisha (06:22):
hmm. Mm
Jason (06:23):
your leaders in other curriculum areas so that they
can learn more and know more andthen lead that change within
your own school. Look at whatyou're doing well already and
see how that is already shapedup in the new curriculum. Also,
you know, we're self-managingschools, so we need to make the
(06:44):
decisions and calls aroundwhat's best for our school. In
2018, for example, in English,our results weren't improving
despite the best efforts of allof our our teachers. We
researched and got advice andlooked into structured literacy,
and it was 2018 - it wasn'treally a thing then. So we were
(07:09):
sticking our neck out and givingit a go. But again, we used a
stepped approach where we hadleaders learn more about it.
Then we had two classroomsgiving it a a go with our
children. We saw the resultspretty instantly
Eleisha (07:24):
Yeah.
Jason (07:25):
with that work and then we brought the rest of school
along. So whenever you'relooking at curriculum change,
it's really important to to dothe research, to get the experts
involved. Look, look within whatyou're already doing
Eleisha (07:38):
hmm.
Jason (07:39):
and what strengths you have, and then bring the rest of
the team along.
Eleisha (07:43):
What about you Ann?
Ann (07:45):
And I think of one of the more recent changes that's
affected year 7-10, really, sothe middle school would be the
mandated introduction ofAotearoa, New Zealand histories
Eleisha (07:55):
mm.
Ann (07:56):
and what I heard Jason say all the way through, he used the
word we, and I think that thatis an incredibly important thing,
tha people don't feel as thoughthe changes are being done to
Eleisha (08:06):
Yeah.
Ann (08:06):
them, even
Eleisha (08:07):
Mm.
Ann (08:07):
though with mandated curriculum change that is the
case. We sort of did the samething. So I had my head of
social science and my head ofyear seven and eight, they
worked together so that wemanaged to have a curriculum
that went from seven through
Eleisha (08:21):
Mm.
Ann (08:21):
to ten.
Eleisha (08:23):
Mm
Ann (08:23):
We built it into our social studies curriculum alongside
quite a change in pedagogy forthat in terms of being, as much
as we can, culturally responsiveand relational.
Eleisha (08:35):
hmm.
Ann (08:36):
But we also we're not part of a Kāhui Ako, but we're part
of a cluster. And we've broughtthose early adopters from the
cluster together where we couldreally share resources right
across the cluster. That workingtogether just meant that people
weren't left having to reinventthe wheel themselves. They could
really share resources, worktogether, and obviously iwi had
(08:59):
a part to play with the culturalnarrative, which was gifted to
us by Ngāi Tahu in this area.And that's really informed our
place based education aroundthat curriculum. I think we were
really fortunate in that ourteachers, we'd done a lot of
work around cultural bias andequity and those sorts of things.
(09:19):
So they saw this as anopportunity to affect change
that was wider than simplycurriculum,
Eleisha (09:26):
Mm hmm.
Ann (09:26):
but it allowed all of our young people actually to see
where they stood and how theyfitted into that curriculum. So
in many ways it was a it wasn'teasy. There was a lot of work to
do because you had to change howyou were teaching and what you
were teaching. But we had thehearts and minds of our teachers
right there.
Eleisha (09:43):
Yeah.
Ann (09:43):
And so that made it easier because they wanted to do it.
Eleisha (09:46):
Yeah. You mentioned before, you know, that people
sometimes feel like things arebeing done to them, not with
them. Is that one of thechallenges when it comes to
change within a school?
Ann (09:57):
Oh, I'd say definitely. You know, as a, tumuaki or principal
for me, I'm in a school ofsitting on 1300. I don't teach
now. And so I have to workthrough others to affect what
happens in classrooms. So thatconsultation, with your teachers
in particular, but also boards,you know, whānau, our young
(10:19):
people have a really strongvoice and actually working with
them and getting that feedbackfrom them is hugely important.
But I work through others. Idon't go into that classroom and
teach. So to have people onboard and really willing to go
with it is to me is hugelyimportant. Otherwise it fails.
Eleisha (10:37):
Yeah, for sure.
Jason (10:38):
Yeah, I think in principalship there's always the
reliance on relationships in aschool and before any change can
be effective, you need to havestrong relationships throughout
the school, staff but also withthe community. You build trust
and you get people wanting towork together.
Iain (11:00):
Yeah, when you're making that change you do need to bring
people with you because it makessure that change is systemic and
it stays even if you've thengone. And when I say people, I
don't mean everybody, you'vejust got to get those shining
lights that you can see straightaway are caring about the school.
They're interested in the kids.They want to be there and you
get them onside and they're yoursort of core group of people
(11:22):
that you can use to push therest of the change.
Eleisha (11:26):
Definitely. How does the change process differ when
you're a tumuaki, than whenyou're going through it as a
teacher or a senior leader in akura?
Jason (11:35):
I think as a teacher you've got a role in any change
process. But for some teachers,it's it's larger than others. It
depends on the strengths and theinterest of the teacher. If
they're involved in a literacyteam, for example, and you're
changing your English curriculum,then they'll have a larger role
in that learning andprofessional development to take
(11:58):
back to the staff. But as atumuaki, you are the overarching
change manager, as Ann saidbefore, you're relying on your
people in your school who havethose skills and enthusiasms to
help you lead that change.
Ann (12:15):
Yeah, I'd agree with you and I think the difference
between being say tumuaki or asenior leader is that, we have
that overall responsibility andwe are, you know, responsible to
our to our students and theirlearning, you know, as well as
their whānau, but in particular,I think to those to those young
people. And so listening to themas things go through is really
(12:36):
important, and to involve yourteam.
Eleisha (12:39):
Yip.
Ann (12:40):
You know, principalship, people talk about it being
lonely, but if you've got areally good senior leadership
team and you've got that abilityto put things on the table, not
own them, absolutely discussthem, argue about them, really
robustly so that you getsomething better and then spread
that out further and startlistening to the teachers. What
(13:02):
do they think about it? Becausethe wisdom doesn't just sit with
us ever
Eleisha (13:06):
Yeah.
Ann (13:07):
and it's so important to involve others. And I would say,
particularly those who areclosest to having to make the
change themselves, that if wedon't listen to them, it could
be a lost cause.
Eleisha (13:20):
Yeah, for sure. And as a tumuaki there's a difference
between making the changes thatyou choose to make, and and
making changes that you have tomake. So when you're making
those changes, do you approachthem differently? And if so, how,
how does that differ?
Jason (13:37):
So when you're in charge of the change process, or you're
choosing to make that change,you can plan things a lot better
with your team, looking aheadand thinking about the signposts
that you need to hit all the waythrough. And when change is
thrown on you, such as theearthquakes or no phone mandate,
(13:57):
for example, you've got to thinkclearly about what is important
at that time. What's the mostimportant things that we need to
do as a team to make that changehappen
Eleisha (14:09):
Hmm hmm
Jason (14:10):
and then talk with your team, make it clear about what
what that is, and thencommunicate really clearly to
those people who need it themost. So in any emergency
situation or any urgent change,you've got to assess and
evaluate the most importantthings to do first
Eleisha (14:33):
hmm hmm
Jason (14:33):
and then you can start planning out the rest of it. But
the immediate response is reallyimportant.
Ann (14:40):
I'd agree with you, Jason, and I think if we looked at
those Christchurch earthquakes,there are certain times when you
don't have the luxury of time toplan and to gather people around
you who are like-minded orcritical so that you get a good
answer. And they're the times inthose emergencies where you've
actually got to put up the flagand say follow me,
Eleisha (15:01):
hmm.
Ann (15:01):
this is what we're doing. And I think that's what people
need, you know, at a time of ofa crisis or an emergency, they
need you to be that person whodoes say, follow me. It's very,
very different to mandatedchange or in fact, when you
choose to change and you've gottime,
Eleisha (15:19):
Hm. Hmm.
Ann (15:20):
I think the difference between those, they're probably
more similar than in a crisissituation where you just have to
lead.
Eleisha (15:27):
Yeah. Iain, what would you add to that?
Iain (15:30):
Yeah. And I guess you've got to create enabling
mechanisms for people to be ableto adjust to whatever the change
might be. And also realisingthat depending what it is, I
mean the Christchurchearthquakes are different to the
scenario of a school in crisisas such, you've got to realise
as a change agent, you've got tocare more about the people than
they care about you. So I meanthat's something I always
(15:53):
consider when you're introducingsomething new or doing something
that can be cataclysmic for somepeople, they don't care about
you, so you've got to sort ofcare a bit more about them than
they do of you to enable you tobe able to initiate that change
I reckon. And that can besometimes hard, especiall in the
situations I've been in, inschools that are in strife, I've
got to care about the kidsbecause the kids are getting a
(16:14):
raw deal. So sometimes thechange process is top down and I
think I heard someone sayingthat before.
Eleisha (16:20):
Mm hmm.
Iain (16:21):
So depending on the situation, your style is going
to change and if it's a realcrisis and there's a dilemma
that's got to be addressed realquickly from a competency or a
structural perspective withinthe school, not the crisis like
Christchurch, then sometimesyou've got to be the situational
leader who's going to be toughand just do as you're told and
let's get on with it
Eleisha (16:42):
And how easy is it to do that? You know, if you're
trying to make a change thatperhaps some of your kaiako
don't agree with or or otherpeople don't agree with, how
difficult can make things foryou as tumuaki.
Iain (16:56):
They can make it very difficult and and that's why
you've got to use your ownpersonality, I guess, to get a
core group of people on sidewhen you're trying to instigate
change so that those otherpeople are actually your
instigators if you like, they'rethe passionators of the change
that you want to affect, becausethere are always going to be
people who don't want to change,always,
Eleisha (17:17):
hmm.
Iain (17:18):
for whatever reason. And sometimes it's genuine reasons
that they just feel they justcan't handle it. And then you
respond differently to thosepeople, I guess. But you've got
to get a real core group ofpeople to be the the champions,
if you like, of whatever it isyou're trying to champion to
change things for the bettermentof kids. So yeah, it's bloody
hard.
Eleisha (17:37):
Yeah. Jason and Ann have you have you managed to
mobilize groups of people likethat?
Ann (17:42):
I think it's, as Iain said, it's absolutely essential. And I
think sometimes that's about,you know, I'm looking at a
change right now and I made aconscious decision before I did
anything to go out and talk tostaff who I think are wise, and
staff who might have a differentopinion to me so that I could
(18:02):
really hear from a whole rangeof perspectives what was going
on before I made up my mind that,yep, actually we do need to do
this. I think maybe we do. But Iwanted to hear from other people
first when it's not mandated,it's something that I think we
need to do to really, reallylisten.
Eleisha (18:19):
Mm hmm.
Ann (18:20):
And listening to those who maybe have been around a while,
those who are new, those who Iknow will disagree just for the
sake of disagreeing with me.
Iain (18:30):
And they're the hard ones to deal with.
Ann (18:33):
They're great to talk to though. So yeah, I think it's
really, really important toinvolve others in both process
and in actual decision making.
Jason (18:44):
Yeah, I think you have summed that up really well, I'm
not sure who said it, but Iheard I heard a quote of don't
go into leadership to be liked.If you want to be liked, go and
sell ice cream because that'snot what you expect as a leader.
You're there as a leader to dothe right thing based on
(19:06):
everything that you know and thepeople around you. So don't
expect to be liked. Just go inand do the best that you you
think you can do.
Iain (19:17):
And if you can try and empower a handful of people to
make sure that they areaddressing whatever the
expectations are of what you'retrying to change and when
they're successful, if you'regiving those people their moment
of glory or they'reacknowledging their skill set or
whatever it is you you've triedto change, then that makes it
(19:38):
easier the next time as well.Because other staff are seeing
you acknowledging people whohave got in behind something or
led something and it makes iteasier the next time and then
even easier the next time and soon and so on.
Jason (19:50):
It's all
Eleisha (19:51):
Yeah, for sure. Just in terms of practical things that
you need to do in your kura whensomething, for example, is
changed in legislation like thethe cell phone legislation. Can
you talk me through just the,like, practically how that works
in your kura? What changes doyou need to put in place to make
sure that you can comply withthat legislation as tumuaki and
(20:15):
as part of your school board?
Jason (20:17):
Well, the first step is making sure you know exactly
what you're being asked to doand being clear in your mind
about what that would mean foryour your school, your situation.
There might be some things thatyou're already doing, for
example, in the phone mandate,there wasn't too many changes
required for most primaryschools. We were already doing a
(20:38):
lot of that, but it was makingsure that you looked at your
current procedures and put themagainst the mandate and I guess
look for any changes that wereneeded. And then as we've
already said the communicationpart, checking that everyone
understands that the changesthat are going to be made and
how we're going to do that inwithin the timeframes.
Eleisha (21:00):
How was that within a high school, Ann?
Ann (21:02):
Look, actually, if we look at that particular one, our
board proposed to that for us tobe cellphone free four years ago
and we took a whole year and wehad really thorough consultation,
we did a whole lot of workaround it, and then the board
mandated that change to me. Butby then we had looked at policy,
(21:23):
procedure, but more importantly,the why. It was a very, very
easy change for staff becauseculture in the classroom changed
overnight, just like that forthe vast majority of kids. And
what we've found is thatprincipals are really, really
generous and principals by andlarge, want to collaborate. And
so we've shared all of thatmaterial with anybody who's
(21:44):
asked for it from across thecountry. And so I think that's
one of the things that if you'rea new principal and you're not
sure, you know, ask a colleague,you know, ask a principal
colleague for that advice. Andwhat I've found is the
generosity is huge acrossprincipals. So you don't have to
actually do this stuff aloneever.
Eleisha (22:07):
So what about when there's a requirement to make
changes to the school curriculum?How does that process work?
Iain (22:14):
I'd suggest that something like that is easier because we
know exactly what we have to do.
Eleisha (22:19):
Yeah.
Iain (22:19):
Forget about whether you agree with it or not. It's
mandated. We're told this iswhat have to do. It's something
that you can't not do.
Eleisha (22:27):
hmm.
Iain (22:27):
There's just one way to do it, ri? We've got to be
reflective about how we do itmaybe, but we've just got to get
on with it and do it.
Jason (22:33):
It's about making sure that everyone keeps calm and
carries on as well. You know,we're not changing everything.
We're looking at a newcurriculum. We compare that with
what we're currently doing andthen we systematically look at
the aspects that we need toinvestigate, have professional
development in and potentiallychange. You start with what
(22:54):
you're doing now, what's workingfor you now and then working on
the aspects that you may not becurrently covering in those
curriculum.
Ann (23:04):
I think probably what I'd add to that is as you're making
those changes supposedly toimprove learning, the use of
data as you go through to showwhether it is or isn't working
is absolutely essential, and if,if teachers and our young people
can see the positives andpositive change in student
learning, then the buy-in isimmediate. It's actually working,
(23:26):
let's keep going. If it's notthen you've got to have a really
good look at the why not, do wejust, is it time, is it a slight
tweaking of a system, is it achange, what do we need?
Eleisha (23:37):
Sure. Iain you mentioned before going into a
school and making kind ofsystemic changes to the way the
kura works - I can't evenimagine how difficult that is.
But, but where do you even start,is it, you know, as Jason's
talked about, just sitting andwatching and and looking for a
while to see what's wrong?
Iain (23:55):
Yeah, I mean, the common management or leadership theory
around change isn't it that yousit and wait for a couple of
terms or a year before youinstigate change. But I guess it
depends on how severe the needfor that change is. I mean I
would definitely recommend topeople that they sit and watch
for a little while, without adoubt. But that can also have a
double edged sword effectbecause if you wait too long and
(24:19):
you're building relationshipswith people, when you do have to
instigate change, sometimes youare going to upset those people
that you've built relationshipswith. Suddenly you are changing
their world on them and they'llfeel like you've been deceiving
them. I've had that experiencein my time of trying to change
something at school because Iwaited too long. So depending on
the situation, what the changeis, I think sometimes you've got
(24:41):
to invariably go in hard andfast and quick. And I know
that's not the commonrecommendation and leadership
theory or management theory orwhatever you like, but sometimes
you do need to.
Jason (24:51):
Yeah, I agree with that. I've had that experience at a
previous school where thingswere really broken and you
couldn't just leave them. Ithink to be a good leader
sometimes you got to be like amoth and fly towards the light
and make those brave decisionsearly on and and see essentially
(25:12):
what is broken and really putyour time and energy into that
so that, you know, you can startto move on.
Iain (25:20):
And sometimes when that change is needed, often times
people don't recognise that theyneed to change or the system
needs to change or the structurein the school needs to change.
So being upfront with them rightat the beginning can sometimes
have a really positive effect aswell.
Ann (25:37):
I think the danger comes when you're talking about a
brand new principal who's had noexperience in change management,
and I think in smaller schoolsin particular, if they're going
into a smaller school where theymay not have had senior
leadership experience, that'soften a really difficult time
for a school. And I think thenit's just so important that
(25:58):
those new principals havesomeone that they can throw
ideas around with that might befrom outside of the school, a
more experienced principal. Ithink that that mentoring and
coaching of new principals isessential work because it's a
very, very difficult thing forsomeone. Even even, I think if
they have been in a largerschool with a larger senior
(26:18):
leadership team where they'vebeen allowed to make those
changes.
Eleisha (26:21):
hmm.
Ann (26:21):
You know, so my three deputy principals get to work
through change and to lead thatchange. But there's a lot of our
new principals haven't had thoseexperiences.
Jason (26:31):
You know, I believe, truly believe it's our job as
principals to include deputyprincipals in any change that's
happening in the school so theycan see and experience what's
needed for that difficult changewithin the school before they
get to a principalship. So yeah,we need to help and grow and
(26:52):
develop our leaders as well.
Eleisha (26:55):
Yeah. And Ann you mentioned there, new tumuaki,
leaning on experiencedprincipals. Where else can new
tumuaki go for information or,you know, to learn how to manage
change within their new kura? .
Ann (27:09):
Look, I think the very best thing that they can do is find
someone that they trust thatthey can talk things through
with. So to me, there's a coupleof types of support, one's a
another principal or makingabsolutely sure they go to their
principal association meetings,so they start to get to know
people and that they're not toolonely and they realise actually
(27:30):
there's a whole lot of people inthis room who I can talk to. If
they run into trouble sometimesit's, with a couple of people
that I work with it's about notme telling them what to do, but
me telling them where to get theadvice around process. Because
if you don't get process right,you can end up in serious
trouble as a principal. So to meit might be New Zealand School
(27:54):
Boards Association, it might bein cases of secondary, if
they're a member of SPANZ, forexample, it might be the lawyer,
it might be the union, unlessthere's a conflict of interest.
Eleisha (28:04):
hmm hmm
Ann (28:05):
So to me those sorts of things are really important. And
then I think, and a lot ofpeople don't do this, and they
don't necessarily like the wordsupervision, but having someone
that you can go to that'spotentially even right outside
of education, where you canactually talk through that
emotional toll on yourself. It'shard not being liked. You know,
(28:26):
as human beings, we sort of wantto be liked. And so when you
know that you're going to makesome really tough decisions
that's going to affect people'slives and livelihood and how
they work, they're really bigthings to do. So I think for me,
it's really important to havesomewhere you can go where you
can talk freely about that andlook after your own wellbeing.
Iain (28:47):
And I think new new principals need to know as well
that change is constant. Getthat in your head, know that
that's going to be the case sothat you're not thrown when more
change or something comes yourway. And that with that change,
hopefully and with thatdetermination, we're constantly
getting better. So there's nopoint having change for change
(29:08):
sake, we're changing somethingbecause we want to get better.
And also realise that no oneschool or one leader has all the
answers ever and no one createschange out of their head all on
their little lonesome. It'smagpied from a whole lot of
other places. So it doesn'tmatter that you're sharing
(29:29):
knowledge or getting informationfrom other people to make a
change in your environment, aslong as it's contextual in what
you're using from other places.None of us have all the answers
and we need to be saying thatright from the beginning. So, so
a new principal needs to knowit's not expected of them to
know everything. Cos they'rebloody never going to know
everything.
Jason (29:46):
Yeah, well said Iain, that's that's crucial, and the
contextual aspect is soimportant because you may have
come from a school that's acompletely different context to
the one that you're in and youneed to know your context and
know what whatever change isthrown at you ah what that will
mean to that context. So youmight have a really trusted
(30:09):
colleague down the road thatyou've had in a previous region,
but they might not be the rightperson to go to. So your local
contacts and relationships withyour regional principals becomes
really important in thosesituations when the change is is
contextual.
Iain (30:28):
And I think you as a leader, you have to have a
really, really clearly definedphilosophy in terms of how the
way you work and what your moralconvictions are as your leader
to to be able to cope with allthose continuing dilemmas of
change, etc., etc.. And thatenables you to keep on course,
right, whatever the problem isor whatever the purpose is. If
(30:50):
you have those real moralconvictions or whatever you want
to call it, then that enablesyou to be a more effective
change agent.
Eleisha (30:57):
Fantastic advice. Thank you all so much for your time
and for sharing your knowledge.
Ann (31:01):
Cheers. Thank you very much. Thank you.
Jason (31:03):
Cheers thank you
Eleisha (31:04):
Thanks. In the next episode, we're talking about
what you can expect when the EROvisits. Mā te wā.
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