March 17, 2025 • 24 mins
The new process for ERO reviews means tumuaki work more closely with their ERO evaluation partner over the three-year cycle. In this episode, we talk about getting the most out of that relationship, and the process when ERO finds something that’s not going so well in a school.
My guests are:
- Shane Morrow, Manager Review and Improvement Services, ERO
- Sharee Hemingway, Director Ākonga Māori, ERO
- Stephen Lethbridge, principal of Point Chevalier School Rangi-mata-rau
- Nick Leith, tumuaki of Te Raekura Redcliffs School.
This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education as part of Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals.
You can learn more about this topic by accessing Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals e-learning modules on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz
Show notes
Episode themes:
- Board assurance statements – useful for tumuaki to use it as a living document for ongoing internal audit. Ensuring you’re using data.
- Important to build an effective relationship with your evaluation partner and engaging with them well – good idea to make their email address a VIP contact so their emails come to the top of your list each time.
- Nick re: evaluation partner/tumuaki relationship: “One thing I've learned about this job is there are an absolute million plates spinning and quite a few of them are wobbling. And I guess if you can turn your attention to some of those wobbles for a period of time, you can get back to the things that are spinning great. But that's a supportive process rather than one that's only there for three days to catch the plates as they fall.”
- Preparation for an ERO visit is important.
- Helping staff manage their nerves when ERO is on site – it’s important to talk them through the process so they know what to expect.
- What happens if an evaluation partner finds something concerning in a school.
- How new tumuaki can understand where their new kura is in an ERO review cycle.
- How to find who your evaluation partner is.
Additional information
ERO website www.ero.govt.nz
School Improvement Framework (SIF) https://ero.govt.nz/how-ero-reviews/how-ero-reviews-schoolskura-english-medium/te-ara-huarau-the-new-approach-to-evaluation/school-improvement-framework
Board assurance statement and self-audit checklists https://ero.govt.nz/how-ero-reviews/how-ero-reviews-schoolskura-english-medium/Te-Ara-Huarau/The-Board-Assurance-Statement-and-Self-Audit-Checklists
Questions
00:45 [Stephen] What do you do to prepare for an ERO visit?
1:17 [Stephen and Shane] Can you talk me through what that board assurance statement covers?
5:07 [Nick] You mentioned that you used your first review as a way of getting to know your kura and the way everything works. How will you prepare next time?
7:55 [Shane and Sharee] Would you add anything to the preparation for an ERO visit?
9:45 [Stephen and Nick] How do you manage staff nerves about having ERO in the school?
13:41 [Shane] What happens if the evaluation partner finds that there's something not quite going so well in a school? How does that process work?
16:35 [Sharee] How does it work in the rumaki bilingual space?
18:52 [Shane] Does ER
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eleisha (00:07):
Kia ora and welcome back to The Principals, a
podcast series for new tumuakiin Aotearoa New Zealand. I'm
Eleisha McNeill. Today we'retalking more about ERO reviews
with my guests Shane Morrow,manager of review and
improvement services for theEducation Review Office, Sharee
Hemingway, director of ākongaMaōri for ERO, and tumuaki
(00:28):
Stephen Lethbridge and NickLeith, who have both been
through an ERO review under thenew process. As always, you can
find more information about thisand other topics in the
e-learning modules and they'relinked to from the show notes.
Cracking back into it with you,Stephen, when it comes to
preparation for an ERO visit,what do you do? Where do you
start?
Stephen (00:50):
I think it's about knowing your kura, knowing your
staff, knowing your ākonga, andjust thinking about what the
process might involve. Andthere's a whole lot of
information that's that'savailable out there. And the big
thing that, that we've alwaysdone as a school in the two
principalships that I've been inis using that board assurance
(01:10):
statement as, as a livingdocument, as a working document.
So that's the compliance stuff.
Eleisha (01:16):
Can you talk me through what that board assurance
statement covers?
Stephen (01:20):
Yes. So it's all of the obligations and things. So it's
I mean, it's none of that is asurprise. It's all there. It's
all legislation. It's all whatwe have to do. And there's no
trick questions in any of it.It's just 'yes', 'no' or
actually 'what'? And that'swhere you can go back and go,
wow, we've got a hole here orwe've got a hole here. That's
(01:42):
what we need to fix. Or how dowe know that when we're doing
safety checks in our personnelfiles, that we've got everything
in place and everything is inorder? So that's not a surprise.
So that's an easy one to beprepared for.
Eleisha (01:55):
Mm. Shane.
Shane (01:56):
Lots of schools use the board assurance statement as
kind of a checklist for ongoingaudit, so you can see what do we
need to focus on. And so thefour broad categories are board
administration, curriculum,health and safety, and personnel.
So they're the big ticket itemsin terms of physical and
emotional safety of young peoplein schools. And it helps you to
see if your processes arecompliant and where they're not,
(02:19):
it gives you the opportunity tothen do some work and to do some
looking.
Eleisha (02:22):
Stephen, what did you want to add?
Stephen (02:24):
You know, my advice would be get that board assurance
statement, make it a livingdocument, get to know it. I've
just recently filled in one, somade another column which was
evidence, here is how you can beassured and where you can go for
information. And that was reallyuseful for senior leaders, but
also incredibly useful for ourboard members. And like I think
(02:45):
Shane talked about, was thatit's all about self review
Eleisha (02:48):
hmm.
Stephen (02:48):
and it's effective self review. So really aligning, it's
strategic plan, it's annual plan,it's alignment, it's measuring
and gathering data about whatyou say you're going to do and
how well it went and then whatimplications that has for future
development. And having that, Ithink having that inquiring
mindset, you know. So what'sgoing on here?
Eleisha (03:09):
Mm
Stephen (03:10):
What's the data telling us, and data in the broadest
sense. What are our hunches? Whydo we think that's the case? So
what could we do differently?
Eleisha (03:17):
hmm.
Stephen (03:17):
And how will we know that we are making a difference
afterwards? And then what's thenext step? So for schools who
are pretty much into justlooking at PD and moving on to
the next PD piece and the nextPD piece and what are we going
to do next, probably preparingis slowing down and thinking
about what do our kids need,
Eleisha (03:37):
Mm hmm.
Stephen (03:37):
what do we need to do and how are we going to do it and
how will we know we'resuccessful. So it's all that
assessment for learning stuffthat we, you know, we want to
get across to our kids, but ifit's good enough for kids, it's
good enough for adults. An Ithink the other one to be
prepared for is an effectiverelationship with your
evaluation partner.
Eleisha (03:54):
Mm hmm.
Stephen (03:55):
That is absolutely crucial and that is on us as
leaders.
Eleisha (03:59):
Yeah.
Stephen (03:59):
You know, evaluation partners have a tough job
because they've got to forgerelationships with a great many
people. And sometimes thosepeople don't want to forge good
relationships because they'vehad experiences. So it's over to
us leaders just to take thatfirst step, to be welcoming, to
listen, but also to share and beopen and transparent. So it's
(04:21):
having a positive relationshipwith the evaluation partner that
is is pretty crucial. As a newprincipal, make sure that in
your emails you highlight andmake your evaluation partner a
VIP contact so they're always atthe top of your list. Making
sure that you're aligning yourboard reports. We don't have a
(04:42):
principals report going to theboard. We have a school report
that goes to the
Eleisha (04:45):
Mm
Stephen (04:45):
board
Eleisha (04:45):
hmm.
Stephen (04:46):
that a number of us contribute to. But aligning that
with your strategic plan so thatthere is evidence there that you
are reporting consistently andcontinually on those strategic
goals that you've identifiedacross the year.
Eleisha (05:00):
hmm.
Stephen (05:00):
So yeah board assurance stuff, that's a key one because
you shouldn't be missing thecompliance stuff.
Eleisha (05:06):
Yeah, for sure. Nick, you mentioned, you know, that
you used your first review as away to kind of get to know all
the things that Stephen wastalking about, um getting to
know the kids and the kaiako andthe school and the way
everything works. How will youprepare next time?
Nick (05:23):
Well, I've learned a lot listening to Stephen to be fair.
I think you know that thattraditional model where Shane
described around the team wouldarrive and the amount of stress
and I suppose internal fear thateveryone would experience
because we're all on show, youknow, all of a sudden morning
teas get real flash for a fewdays. That model doesn't, you
(05:45):
know, it doesn't reflect thereality anymore. And that
ability to work alongside eachother and just I suppose, work
smarter in the sense, you know,what Stephen was talking about
reference to the board assurancestuff. That does make perfect
sense just to keep rollingthrough that rather than wait
for an email to say, I'd like tocome and look at your board
assurance and, and likewise theimprovement framework in terms
(06:10):
of where are we going next? Well,we've done it. The evaluation
partner's left so we don't haveto look at it again. All you're
going to end up doing isrepeating the same cycle of, oh
oh, I need to make sure ourschool looks nice. So the
conversations I've had withreally experienced principals
have been great, particularly asthat narrative does shift. And I
think that's probably proof thatthe process is is a far more
(06:34):
productive one, I suppose,rather than looking for schools
that aren't meeting therequirements in terms of
compliance, but also in terms ofevaluation for, you know, for
continuous improvement
Eleisha (06:44):
Mm hmm.
Nick (06:45):
and as a new person into leadership with the principal
hat on, I think that's reallyencouraging because you get a
lot a lot of support around goodways to work with ERO
Eleisha (06:55):
Mm hmm.
Nick (06:56):
or with your evaluation partner. And that increased
trust is really important. Iexperienced a really positive
process and actually a prettyquick process because I feel
like I engaged with it reallywell and had a team that engaged
with it really well. So
Eleisha (07:10):
Yeah.
Nick (07:11):
it was wasn't something that dragged on for ever and
ever. I think that that thatrelationship with your
evaluation partner is reallycentral to that. I would
definitely second that pointbecause that kept the momentum
Eleisha (07:23):
Mm
Nick (07:23):
going
Eleisha (07:23):
hmm.
Nick (07:23):
because I think once you're in that process, it's
actually a really rewarding one.We all need to know what we're
doing well and we all need toknow where we where we can focus
our attention.
Eleisha (07:32):
Yeah
Nick (07:32):
And and the one thing I've learned about this job is there
are an absolute million platesspinning and quite a few of them
are wobbling. And I guess if youcan turn your attention to some
of those wobbles for a period oftime, you can get back to the
things that are spinning great.
Eleisha (07:46):
Yeah.
Nick (07:46):
But that, that's a supportive process rather than
one that's only there for threedays to catch the plates as they
fall. Sorry about the analogythere.
Eleisha (07:55):
That's a good analogy. Good analogy. Makes perfect
sense. Shane and Sharee, wouldyou add anything to the
preparation for an ERO visit?
Shane (08:03):
It was really nice to hear Stephen you talking about
using the tools that EROprovides as part of your ongoing
work and that was the whole ideaof developing the school
improvement framework. And wealso have a thing called Poutama
Reo which looks at the provisionof te reo Māori language in
English medium schools. So thoseframeworks are available on the
(08:23):
website. So there's no secrets.
Eleisha (08:25):
Mm hmm.
Shane (08:25):
The school self-assurance checklists, the board assurance
statement is also on the website.I think was really heartening to
hear the whole idea of inquiringtogether because I think that's
what the partnership is about.So with the evaluation partner
in the school, are you seeingwhat we're seeing? Are we seeing
what you're seeing, are thepriorities that you've
identified the ones that weagree are the biggest ticket
(08:48):
items? Because as you say Nick,there's so many things happening
in schools
Eleisha (08:51):
Mm hmm
Shane (08:51):
and you can't be giving everything your attention all of
the time, what are the key onesthat are going to make the most
difference is the thing that welook at.
Eleisha (08:59):
Sharee, did have anything?
Sharee (09:00):
Yeah, I'd just add obviously what you said, Stephen
and Nick while you're spinningyour hundred plates and some of
them are wobbling, just be aswell read as you can, as well
prepared. Visit the ERO websiteto understand the process, Te
Ara Huarau process, connect withyour evaluation partner to seek
clarification. It's about yourpreparedness before ERO connect
(09:23):
With in regards to Te Pou Reo,rumaki bilingual connect to some
your tumuaki that may have thosesame spaces in there that have
undergone a process or a reviewto understand that and I'm sure
you do that but like you saidNick, there's a whole lot of
other things going on in spacesso it's having the time to do
that. But ERO has a whole lot ofstuff online that you can access.
Eleisha (09:45):
Fantastic. You mentioned Stephen being really
nervous about ERO coming in. Howdo you manage, you know, that
kind of level of nerves you getfrom from your staff?
Stephen (09:56):
I think that's in the new, new way of doing reviews that's
diminished incredibly, you know,so, gone are the days of, you
know, the whole three or fourreviewers turning up and then
it's a week. And then at the endof the week, the leadership team
go oh, thank goodness for that.And they put a speaker call
across the whole school 'TheEagle has left the building' and
(10:19):
then everyone goes, yay, andthey have a big relax. So those
days are all gone, you know,it's probably for us about, it's
having other adults in yourlearning spaces as often as you
can. So for us it's just beingin classrooms, talking with kids,
you know, we're an assessmentfor learning focused school, so
(10:41):
it's always about wheneversomeone's bringing some quality
learning up to the office forthe senior leadership team to
have a look, what were you doing,how did you know you were going
to be successful, so how doesthis meet that? So building that
right from the start iscrucially important. And having
other adults in the in theclassroom is not a big deal.
It's also how we behave asadults as well, and
Eleisha (11:04):
Mm hmm.
Stephen (11:04):
principals as well. So, you know, giving that calm sense
of reassurance to staff, hey,ERO are here to help us see what
we might not be able to see.
Eleisha (11:15):
And do you talk to him through the process? You know,
what's going to happen.
Stephen (11:18):
Oh definitely, that's definitely part of the whole
preparation. And, you know, theit's what Nick was talking about.
It's that even though everythinglands and the principal is
responsible ultimately it is
Eleisha (11:28):
Mm
Stephen (11:29):
about that distribution, making sure everyone understands
what the process is and thatit's just part of being in a
learning organisation. But again,people still get worried. So,
you know the the chocolate barin the cubby hole for that
person who is quite nervous, orknowing who might need a hey
(11:50):
don't worry about it, they'renot coming to you today or hey,
there's a class visit that'scoming and we really want them
to see what you're doing. Don'tplan anything special. Just do
what you're doing. You know,that's that's the reassuring
messages that we can give. But Ithink that it's also nice when
staff notice and think that thisis a big deal for leadership
(12:10):
teams. So the nice things thatstaff do for their leadership
teams at this time is is crucialas well, like the icebreakers
just to keep everyone seeingwhat the big picture is.
Eleisha (12:22):
Nick, is that the same for you?
Nick (12:23):
I only had probably had one thing to add, and that was
just around that transparency.Like, people, teachers are on
the whole, we all are ineducation, we're reasonably
conflict averse folk and we wereally like to find the good in
people. So if you can meet yourevaluation partner before
there's any sort of, you know,observation or spending time in
(12:45):
your classroom, that's half thebarriers are broken down, I
think. And I know we had a areally productive, positi
experience in terms of our teammeeting our evaluation partner,
got the chance to ask some ofthose sort of questions that
back in the day you would havegone, ooh, why did we even say
that? But, you know, it was likea natural process. And I think
(13:06):
that that's really disarming.And and the same for the board
of trustees, like just havingthat ability to communicate
openly, ask questions about theprocess. I think that that's
definitely a real positive stepin terms of what it
Eleisha (13:20):
Mm
Nick (13:21):
used
Eleisha (13:21):
hmm.
Nick (13:21):
to feel like, I know it feels a lot more open. And I
think, yeah, if you can breakdown any sort of visible barrier
in terms of a surprise personhas just arrived and is now
looking in your classroom atyour practice, well, that would
put anyone off in no matter whatprofession. So I think that's a
really big part of that stepforward
Eleisha (13:40):
For sure. So what happens if evaluation partner
finds that there's something notquite going so well in a school?
How does that process work?Maybe start with you, Shane.
Shane (13:54):
Sometimes that happens. And so sometimes in schools, you
know, evaluation partners seesomething or uncover something
that that gives us concern. Wewould always let the school know,
that you know, we've we've seensomething that we think might
need a little bit moreinvestigation or that's worrying
us a little bit. It's notuncommon in the work that we do
in schools in the hauhake phaseto come with a peer as well. So
(14:17):
sometimes an evaluation partnerwill come with a colleague
because it just helps make themost of the time on site a
little bit. So if two EROevaluation partners arrive at
the school it's not necessarilythat anything is going wrong.
But where we do have concerns,we would share those concerns
with the principal and with thepresiding member of the board.
Eleisha (14:37):
Immediately, or?
Shane (14:39):
As soon as we can. Absolutely
Eleisha (14:40):
Mm
Shane (14:40):
as soon as we can. So sometimes if we're doing
verification of compliance, andwe find that there's something
that's not compliant, we mightreport that back the same day.
Sometimes we might need to justgo away and have a conversation
with our managers as evaluationpartners about look I've got a
wondering about something that Isaw in a particular school, I
need to talk it through and wemight make a plan. So sometimes
what we might do is we mightcome back to look at that in a
(15:02):
little bit more depth.
Eleisha (15:03):
hmm. Hmm.
Shane (15:04):
So we might then look at our evaluation partner team and
say, okay, so there might beissues in the school around,
let's say, pastoral care. And sowe might pull somebody from our
team who had strong experiencein that when they were working
in the schools and we mightbring them with us. We can also
recommend support for schools.So when we get to reporting time,
we can recommend some support orsome intervention for a school
(15:27):
that might need it and what thatsupport is needed around. We're
really, really clear with theschool where we've found
something that needs to be dealtwith. It can sometimes be a
compliance issue which can beeasily fixed and so that's
absolutely fine. It cansometimes be a worrying trend
that we're seeing, particularlyaround what's happening for
young people. So it might meanthat the school could do with
(15:48):
some support around assessmentand learning or curriculum
planning or assessment tools oruse of data or things like that.
So we can ask for some Ministrysupport. We can also do some
brokering between the schoolsthat we work with. So evaluation
partners work with a large rangeof schools. And I know that I
had experiences where workingwith one school, which is maybe
(16:09):
three terms behind anotherschool which is working on the
same thing, and so you can havea conversation with your other
principal to say, look, I've gotanother school that's also
working on that. Do you mind ifI connected you together?
Because
Eleisha (16:20):
Hmm.
Shane (16:20):
this
Eleisha (16:20):
Hmm.
Shane (16:20):
school it's at the beginning steps and they'd quite
like to come and have a look athow you mapped this out, how you
planned it, and how you kind ofworked forward. So we we can do
a number of things where we findthat things aren't going well.
And sometimes those are toughconversations to have with
schools.
Eleisha (16:34):
I'm sure they are. Sharee, what about you? What
would you add?
Sharee (16:38):
Yeah, so much the same. At the end of it, the day and a
half of being in the rumakibilingual space, we sit back
down with the tumuaki, presidingmember if they're available and
often the lead with those unitsand it's very transparent. So
they have an opportunity topresent where they position
themselves on the framework. Wesort of go from pou tahi, which
(17:01):
is the first phase through pouwhā which is sort of the top
level of performing. And thenwith the evidence that we've
gathered, we discuss where wepositioned them on the framework
and the reasons why. So it'sactually a really transparent
and open discussion, it's awānanga
Eleisha (17:18):
Mm hmm.
Sharee (17:18):
around why we have reached the positions we each
have on on our framework. Andactually it opens up some really
rich discussion. And often I'vefound that we can sit and listen
to the tumuaki, and the kaiakoor heads actually have a
discussion amongst themselvesabout, oh okay , you know, so it
brings about some really gooddiscussion. And we from there
(17:41):
just come to an agreeance reallyon where we think the school is
positioned and the way forward
Eleisha (17:46):
Mm
Sharee (17:46):
for improvement on that. So there may be things we've
missed as well, we're only we'rein there for a day and a half so
it's that opportunity then to todig a bit deeper and have a
little bit more of a look around.What is it that we've missed?
You know, it's an opportunityfor the school to provide their
narrative around where they arepositioned and where they're
(18:06):
headed on the improvementjourney. So really transparent.
We go away, we formulate ourfindings, the learner outcomes,
conditions that are supportingthose outcomes and what our next
steps are going to be workingtogether. So there's different
layers for how we're able tosupport schools depending on
where we sort of landed on onthe framework and depending on
(18:29):
where they're at will as Shanehas said drive the
recommendations that we make -is that at the higher level, and
there needs to be, you know,maybe too many visits, for
example, or we're sort ofsitting on a they're doing fine,
self-evaluation, the school canself evaluate and we'll check in
annually with the documentationfor example. So yeah, very
(18:50):
transparent there's no surprises.
Eleisha (18:52):
So, does ERO help set up that support where it's
needed or is it a referralprocess to the Ministry? How to
how does that kind of work?
Shane (19:00):
It's usually a referral process. So one of the things
that I think is really, reallyimportant to remember is that
your ERO evaluation partner isnot a professional learning
provider. So short answer to thequestion, if we think some
support could be useful for theschool, then that's usually a
recommendation to the Ministryof Education that they look at
providing that support for theschool.
Eleisha (19:20):
Okay. And that can range from what? Leadership
support through?
Shane (19:24):
Yes it can. It could be coming in to help the board
write an action plan.
Eleisha (19:28):
Mm hmm.
Shane (19:28):
It could be a range of interventions. If you want the
list it's section 171 of theEducation Act. So there's about
ten different kinds ofinterventions that we could
request or supports that we canrequest. It could be some work
around helping the school aroundtheir assessment tools and their
use of assessment for learningor for knowing about students.
It could be all those kinds ofthings through to what people
(19:51):
would know is the the kind ofbiggest intervention, which
would be the appointment of alimited statutory manager or a
commissioner.
Eleisha (19:57):
Mm hmm.
Shane (19:58):
There's also the other stuff that we could do, which
could be, can we put you intouch with somebody else who is
doing something similar butmight be a little bit further
down the track than you? Andlots of schools have got support
in place anyway. So we might say,you know, are you working with
somebody on this and you'vealready got a provider that's
helping you or a new principalmentor that's helping you with
that.
Eleisha (20:16):
Yeah. So a wide range of things. When a new tumuaki
steps in the building, how canthey get their head around where
a school is in that review cycleor where they are in the
improvement journey?
Shane (20:28):
So I think step number one would be have a look at your
school's most recent EducationReview Office report, which
you'll find online because thatwill set a couple of things for
you. It'll say what it is thatwe've agreed that we're going to
work on and evaluate togetherover the rest of the cycle. The
date will give you an indicationof when, when things are going
(20:49):
to move towards hauhake, becauseevery school, once they're in to
Te Aro Huarau, is on a threeyear review cycle.
Eleisha (20:56):
Yeah.
Shane (20:56):
So we have a consistent cycle now for schools. We
usually know when the principalhas changed in a school and we
work in a couple of differentways. We kind of think about
let's just give them a chance toput their feet under the desk,
you know, to learn where thingsare, to learn the names of their
staff before we're in. Itdepends on where you are in the
cycle. So we might often make nocontact at all for quite some
(21:19):
weeks. And then just, you know,pop an email to say, introducing
myself, let's set up a videoconference time just to talk
with where is the school at inthe cycle? What was it the
school said that they were goingto work on? Where we're up to,
what are the timeframes for that.If you come in and you're
worried and you really, reallywant to know, you can just
contact the Education ReviewOffice through the website and
(21:40):
ask for the evaluation partnerjust to be in touch. And we're
really happy to do that.
Sharee (21:45):
I'll just add Eleisha, if there is a rumaki or
bilingual unit in the school andyou're new, you might go online
and read your latest report. Ifthe rumaki or bilingual unit
seem invisible in that reportthen again, reach out to your
evaluation partner if you as anew tumuaki would like maybe
some idea of what's happening inthat space or some support in
that space. Again, reach out ifit does seem invisible in the,
(22:09):
in the report.
Eleisha (22:11):
And how can they find out who their evaluation partner
is?
Shane (22:14):
Fairly simple. There's a contact details on on the
Education Review website and youcan just go on there, fill out
the request which could be couldmy evaluation partner please get
in touch with me, I'm a newprincipal at whichever school,
and we'll we'll make that happenfor you.
Eleisha (22:34):
Cool. I'd like to finish up by asking each of you
for your advice to a new tumuakiapproaching an ERO review. Maybe
start with you, Stephen
Stephen (22:45):
I suppose for me, it's just about relishing the
experience, take a veryinquiring approach and be open
and transparent. And that's,that's pretty much it.
Eleisha (22:54):
Sharee.
Sharee (22:55):
Yeah. Being open and honest and trying to keep the
nerves in check because it is itis a different process now from
perhaps years gone by. That EROis there to support the
improvement journey. And just bewell-read go into the ERO
website, have a look around,familiarise yourself with what
it is that will be undertakenprior to the visit.
Eleisha (23:17):
Thank you. Nick
Nick (23:19):
I guess the best piece of advice I've been given from a
leadership mentor is that in aschool you are essentially a
self-managing entity so you cancontrol every aspect of life as
best you can and seek supportwhen you need it. And this is
all part of that process I guessof support and we all need a bit
of advice and guidance at times.And if we do it together, it's a
(23:40):
heck of a lot easier thanfeeling like it's all being done
to you.
Eleisha (23:44):
For sure. Shane.
Shane (23:46):
I think the advice that I would give is work with your
evaluation partner. Get to knowthem fairly soon when you're
ready, once you've started in anew school. Do some reading, but
also talk to them about whereare we up to in the process,
where do you expect as anevaluation partner you're going
to be coming in and interactingwith the school? As a new
principal you might want to ask,what do you need from us within
the next three months? Is thereanything that immediately needs
(24:07):
to happen? Or is this somethingyou know, I don't expect to see
you or hear from you for sixmonths. So where are we up to in
the cycle? Where are we in theprocess? And any questions you
have about the process? Really,really important.
Eleisha (24:20):
Thank you. Wow, that sounds, that's a very different
process than the one that, youknow, I used to read about in
the newspaper. It sounds a lotmore gentle and collaborative, I
think. Thank you all very muchfor your time today. I
appreciate you giving your timeand sharing your knowledge.
Nick (24:35):
Ka kite. Thank
Eleisha (24:36):
Thank
Nick (24:36):
you.
Eleisha (24:36):
you,
Interview (24:37):
Thanks for the opportunity. It was good fun.
Eleisha (24:39):
Thanks. We're changing gears in the next episodes.
We're going to be focusing onproperty, starting with the
basics of property admin,planning and funding. See you
next time.
Kia ora and welcome back to The Principals, a
podcast series for new tumuakiin Aotearoa New Zealand. I'm
Eleisha McNeill. Today we'retalking more about ERO reviews
with my guests Shane Morrow,manager of review and
improvement services for theEducation Review Office, Sharee
Hemingway, director of ākongaMaōri for ERO, and tumuaki
(00:28):
Stephen Lethbridge and NickLeith, who have both been
through an ERO review under thenew process. As always, you can
find more information about thisand other topics in the
e-learning modules and they'relinked to from the show notes.
Cracking back into it with you,Stephen, when it comes to
preparation for an ERO visit,what do you do? Where do you
start?
Stephen (00:50):
I think it's about knowing your kura, knowing your
staff, knowing your ākonga, andjust thinking about what the
process might involve. Andthere's a whole lot of
information that's that'savailable out there. And the big
thing that, that we've alwaysdone as a school in the two
principalships that I've been inis using that board assurance
(01:10):
statement as, as a livingdocument, as a working document.
So that's the compliance stuff.
Eleisha (01:16):
Can you talk me through what that board assurance
statement covers?
Stephen (01:20):
Yes. So it's all of the obligations and things. So it's
I mean, it's none of that is asurprise. It's all there. It's
all legislation. It's all whatwe have to do. And there's no
trick questions in any of it.It's just 'yes', 'no' or
actually 'what'? And that'swhere you can go back and go,
wow, we've got a hole here orwe've got a hole here. That's
(01:42):
what we need to fix. Or how dowe know that when we're doing
safety checks in our personnelfiles, that we've got everything
in place and everything is inorder? So that's not a surprise.
So that's an easy one to beprepared for.
Eleisha (01:55):
Mm. Shane.
Shane (01:56):
Lots of schools use the board assurance statement as
kind of a checklist for ongoingaudit, so you can see what do we
need to focus on. And so thefour broad categories are board
administration, curriculum,health and safety, and personnel.
So they're the big ticket itemsin terms of physical and
emotional safety of young peoplein schools. And it helps you to
see if your processes arecompliant and where they're not,
(02:19):
it gives you the opportunity tothen do some work and to do some
looking.
Eleisha (02:22):
Stephen, what did you want to add?
Stephen (02:24):
You know, my advice would be get that board assurance
statement, make it a livingdocument, get to know it. I've
just recently filled in one, somade another column which was
evidence, here is how you can beassured and where you can go for
information. And that was reallyuseful for senior leaders, but
also incredibly useful for ourboard members. And like I think
(02:45):
Shane talked about, was thatit's all about self review
Eleisha (02:48):
hmm.
Stephen (02:48):
and it's effective self review. So really aligning, it's
strategic plan, it's annual plan,it's alignment, it's measuring
and gathering data about whatyou say you're going to do and
how well it went and then whatimplications that has for future
development. And having that, Ithink having that inquiring
mindset, you know. So what'sgoing on here?
Eleisha (03:09):
Mm
Stephen (03:10):
What's the data telling us, and data in the broadest
sense. What are our hunches? Whydo we think that's the case? So
what could we do differently?
Eleisha (03:17):
hmm.
Stephen (03:17):
And how will we know that we are making a difference
afterwards? And then what's thenext step? So for schools who
are pretty much into justlooking at PD and moving on to
the next PD piece and the nextPD piece and what are we going
to do next, probably preparingis slowing down and thinking
about what do our kids need,
Eleisha (03:37):
Mm hmm.
Stephen (03:37):
what do we need to do and how are we going to do it and
how will we know we'resuccessful. So it's all that
assessment for learning stuffthat we, you know, we want to
get across to our kids, but ifit's good enough for kids, it's
good enough for adults. An Ithink the other one to be
prepared for is an effectiverelationship with your
evaluation partner.
Eleisha (03:54):
Mm hmm.
Stephen (03:55):
That is absolutely crucial and that is on us as
leaders.
Eleisha (03:59):
Yeah.
Stephen (03:59):
You know, evaluation partners have a tough job
because they've got to forgerelationships with a great many
people. And sometimes thosepeople don't want to forge good
relationships because they'vehad experiences. So it's over to
us leaders just to take thatfirst step, to be welcoming, to
listen, but also to share and beopen and transparent. So it's
(04:21):
having a positive relationshipwith the evaluation partner that
is is pretty crucial. As a newprincipal, make sure that in
your emails you highlight andmake your evaluation partner a
VIP contact so they're always atthe top of your list. Making
sure that you're aligning yourboard reports. We don't have a
(04:42):
principals report going to theboard. We have a school report
that goes to the
Eleisha (04:45):
Mm
Stephen (04:45):
board
Eleisha (04:45):
hmm.
Stephen (04:46):
that a number of us contribute to. But aligning that
with your strategic plan so thatthere is evidence there that you
are reporting consistently andcontinually on those strategic
goals that you've identifiedacross the year.
Eleisha (05:00):
hmm.
Stephen (05:00):
So yeah board assurance stuff, that's a key one because
you shouldn't be missing thecompliance stuff.
Eleisha (05:06):
Yeah, for sure. Nick, you mentioned, you know, that
you used your first review as away to kind of get to know all
the things that Stephen wastalking about, um getting to
know the kids and the kaiako andthe school and the way
everything works. How will youprepare next time?
Nick (05:23):
Well, I've learned a lot listening to Stephen to be fair.
I think you know that thattraditional model where Shane
described around the team wouldarrive and the amount of stress
and I suppose internal fear thateveryone would experience
because we're all on show, youknow, all of a sudden morning
teas get real flash for a fewdays. That model doesn't, you
(05:45):
know, it doesn't reflect thereality anymore. And that
ability to work alongside eachother and just I suppose, work
smarter in the sense, you know,what Stephen was talking about
reference to the board assurancestuff. That does make perfect
sense just to keep rollingthrough that rather than wait
for an email to say, I'd like tocome and look at your board
assurance and, and likewise theimprovement framework in terms
(06:10):
of where are we going next? Well,we've done it. The evaluation
partner's left so we don't haveto look at it again. All you're
going to end up doing isrepeating the same cycle of, oh
oh, I need to make sure ourschool looks nice. So the
conversations I've had withreally experienced principals
have been great, particularly asthat narrative does shift. And I
think that's probably proof thatthe process is is a far more
(06:34):
productive one, I suppose,rather than looking for schools
that aren't meeting therequirements in terms of
compliance, but also in terms ofevaluation for, you know, for
continuous improvement
Eleisha (06:44):
Mm hmm.
Nick (06:45):
and as a new person into leadership with the principal
hat on, I think that's reallyencouraging because you get a
lot a lot of support around goodways to work with ERO
Eleisha (06:55):
Mm hmm.
Nick (06:56):
or with your evaluation partner. And that increased
trust is really important. Iexperienced a really positive
process and actually a prettyquick process because I feel
like I engaged with it reallywell and had a team that engaged
with it really well. So
Eleisha (07:10):
Yeah.
Nick (07:11):
it was wasn't something that dragged on for ever and
ever. I think that that thatrelationship with your
evaluation partner is reallycentral to that. I would
definitely second that pointbecause that kept the momentum
Eleisha (07:23):
Mm
Nick (07:23):
going
Eleisha (07:23):
hmm.
Nick (07:23):
because I think once you're in that process, it's
actually a really rewarding one.We all need to know what we're
doing well and we all need toknow where we where we can focus
our attention.
Eleisha (07:32):
Yeah
Nick (07:32):
And and the one thing I've learned about this job is there
are an absolute million platesspinning and quite a few of them
are wobbling. And I guess if youcan turn your attention to some
of those wobbles for a period oftime, you can get back to the
things that are spinning great.
Eleisha (07:46):
Yeah.
Nick (07:46):
But that, that's a supportive process rather than
one that's only there for threedays to catch the plates as they
fall. Sorry about the analogythere.
Eleisha (07:55):
That's a good analogy. Good analogy. Makes perfect
sense. Shane and Sharee, wouldyou add anything to the
preparation for an ERO visit?
Shane (08:03):
It was really nice to hear Stephen you talking about
using the tools that EROprovides as part of your ongoing
work and that was the whole ideaof developing the school
improvement framework. And wealso have a thing called Poutama
Reo which looks at the provisionof te reo Māori language in
English medium schools. So thoseframeworks are available on the
(08:23):
website. So there's no secrets.
Eleisha (08:25):
Mm hmm.
Shane (08:25):
The school self-assurance checklists, the board assurance
statement is also on the website.I think was really heartening to
hear the whole idea of inquiringtogether because I think that's
what the partnership is about.So with the evaluation partner
in the school, are you seeingwhat we're seeing? Are we seeing
what you're seeing, are thepriorities that you've
identified the ones that weagree are the biggest ticket
(08:48):
items? Because as you say Nick,there's so many things happening
in schools
Eleisha (08:51):
Mm hmm
Shane (08:51):
and you can't be giving everything your attention all of
the time, what are the key onesthat are going to make the most
difference is the thing that welook at.
Eleisha (08:59):
Sharee, did have anything?
Sharee (09:00):
Yeah, I'd just add obviously what you said, Stephen
and Nick while you're spinningyour hundred plates and some of
them are wobbling, just be aswell read as you can, as well
prepared. Visit the ERO websiteto understand the process, Te
Ara Huarau process, connect withyour evaluation partner to seek
clarification. It's about yourpreparedness before ERO connect
(09:23):
With in regards to Te Pou Reo,rumaki bilingual connect to some
your tumuaki that may have thosesame spaces in there that have
undergone a process or a reviewto understand that and I'm sure
you do that but like you saidNick, there's a whole lot of
other things going on in spacesso it's having the time to do
that. But ERO has a whole lot ofstuff online that you can access.
Eleisha (09:45):
Fantastic. You mentioned Stephen being really
nervous about ERO coming in. Howdo you manage, you know, that
kind of level of nerves you getfrom from your staff?
Stephen (09:56):
I think that's in the new, new way of doing reviews that's
diminished incredibly, you know,so, gone are the days of, you
know, the whole three or fourreviewers turning up and then
it's a week. And then at the endof the week, the leadership team
go oh, thank goodness for that.And they put a speaker call
across the whole school 'TheEagle has left the building' and
(10:19):
then everyone goes, yay, andthey have a big relax. So those
days are all gone, you know,it's probably for us about, it's
having other adults in yourlearning spaces as often as you
can. So for us it's just beingin classrooms, talking with kids,
you know, we're an assessmentfor learning focused school, so
(10:41):
it's always about wheneversomeone's bringing some quality
learning up to the office forthe senior leadership team to
have a look, what were you doing,how did you know you were going
to be successful, so how doesthis meet that? So building that
right from the start iscrucially important. And having
other adults in the in theclassroom is not a big deal.
It's also how we behave asadults as well, and
Eleisha (11:04):
Mm hmm.
Stephen (11:04):
principals as well. So, you know, giving that calm sense
of reassurance to staff, hey,ERO are here to help us see what
we might not be able to see.
Eleisha (11:15):
And do you talk to him through the process? You know,
what's going to happen.
Stephen (11:18):
Oh definitely, that's definitely part of the whole
preparation. And, you know, theit's what Nick was talking about.
It's that even though everythinglands and the principal is
responsible ultimately it is
Eleisha (11:28):
Mm
Stephen (11:29):
about that distribution, making sure everyone understands
what the process is and thatit's just part of being in a
learning organisation. But again,people still get worried. So,
you know the the chocolate barin the cubby hole for that
person who is quite nervous, orknowing who might need a hey
(11:50):
don't worry about it, they'renot coming to you today or hey,
there's a class visit that'scoming and we really want them
to see what you're doing. Don'tplan anything special. Just do
what you're doing. You know,that's that's the reassuring
messages that we can give. But Ithink that it's also nice when
staff notice and think that thisis a big deal for leadership
(12:10):
teams. So the nice things thatstaff do for their leadership
teams at this time is is crucialas well, like the icebreakers
just to keep everyone seeingwhat the big picture is.
Eleisha (12:22):
Nick, is that the same for you?
Nick (12:23):
I only had probably had one thing to add, and that was
just around that transparency.Like, people, teachers are on
the whole, we all are ineducation, we're reasonably
conflict averse folk and we wereally like to find the good in
people. So if you can meet yourevaluation partner before
there's any sort of, you know,observation or spending time in
(12:45):
your classroom, that's half thebarriers are broken down, I
think. And I know we had a areally productive, positi
experience in terms of our teammeeting our evaluation partner,
got the chance to ask some ofthose sort of questions that
back in the day you would havegone, ooh, why did we even say
that? But, you know, it was likea natural process. And I think
(13:06):
that that's really disarming.And and the same for the board
of trustees, like just havingthat ability to communicate
openly, ask questions about theprocess. I think that that's
definitely a real positive stepin terms of what it
Eleisha (13:20):
Mm
Nick (13:21):
used
Eleisha (13:21):
hmm.
Nick (13:21):
to feel like, I know it feels a lot more open. And I
think, yeah, if you can breakdown any sort of visible barrier
in terms of a surprise personhas just arrived and is now
looking in your classroom atyour practice, well, that would
put anyone off in no matter whatprofession. So I think that's a
really big part of that stepforward
Eleisha (13:40):
For sure. So what happens if evaluation partner
finds that there's something notquite going so well in a school?
How does that process work?Maybe start with you, Shane.
Shane (13:54):
Sometimes that happens. And so sometimes in schools, you
know, evaluation partners seesomething or uncover something
that that gives us concern. Wewould always let the school know,
that you know, we've we've seensomething that we think might
need a little bit moreinvestigation or that's worrying
us a little bit. It's notuncommon in the work that we do
in schools in the hauhake phaseto come with a peer as well. So
(14:17):
sometimes an evaluation partnerwill come with a colleague
because it just helps make themost of the time on site a
little bit. So if two EROevaluation partners arrive at
the school it's not necessarilythat anything is going wrong.
But where we do have concerns,we would share those concerns
with the principal and with thepresiding member of the board.
Eleisha (14:37):
Immediately, or?
Shane (14:39):
As soon as we can. Absolutely
Eleisha (14:40):
Mm
Shane (14:40):
as soon as we can. So sometimes if we're doing
verification of compliance, andwe find that there's something
that's not compliant, we mightreport that back the same day.
Sometimes we might need to justgo away and have a conversation
with our managers as evaluationpartners about look I've got a
wondering about something that Isaw in a particular school, I
need to talk it through and wemight make a plan. So sometimes
what we might do is we mightcome back to look at that in a
(15:02):
little bit more depth.
Eleisha (15:03):
hmm. Hmm.
Shane (15:04):
So we might then look at our evaluation partner team and
say, okay, so there might beissues in the school around,
let's say, pastoral care. And sowe might pull somebody from our
team who had strong experiencein that when they were working
in the schools and we mightbring them with us. We can also
recommend support for schools.So when we get to reporting time,
we can recommend some support orsome intervention for a school
(15:27):
that might need it and what thatsupport is needed around. We're
really, really clear with theschool where we've found
something that needs to be dealtwith. It can sometimes be a
compliance issue which can beeasily fixed and so that's
absolutely fine. It cansometimes be a worrying trend
that we're seeing, particularlyaround what's happening for
young people. So it might meanthat the school could do with
(15:48):
some support around assessmentand learning or curriculum
planning or assessment tools oruse of data or things like that.
So we can ask for some Ministrysupport. We can also do some
brokering between the schoolsthat we work with. So evaluation
partners work with a large rangeof schools. And I know that I
had experiences where workingwith one school, which is maybe
(16:09):
three terms behind anotherschool which is working on the
same thing, and so you can havea conversation with your other
principal to say, look, I've gotanother school that's also
working on that. Do you mind ifI connected you together?
Because
Eleisha (16:20):
Hmm.
Shane (16:20):
this
Eleisha (16:20):
Hmm.
Shane (16:20):
school it's at the beginning steps and they'd quite
like to come and have a look athow you mapped this out, how you
planned it, and how you kind ofworked forward. So we we can do
a number of things where we findthat things aren't going well.
And sometimes those are toughconversations to have with
schools.
Eleisha (16:34):
I'm sure they are. Sharee, what about you? What
would you add?
Sharee (16:38):
Yeah, so much the same. At the end of it, the day and a
half of being in the rumakibilingual space, we sit back
down with the tumuaki, presidingmember if they're available and
often the lead with those unitsand it's very transparent. So
they have an opportunity topresent where they position
themselves on the framework. Wesort of go from pou tahi, which
(17:01):
is the first phase through pouwhā which is sort of the top
level of performing. And thenwith the evidence that we've
gathered, we discuss where wepositioned them on the framework
and the reasons why. So it'sactually a really transparent
and open discussion, it's awānanga
Eleisha (17:18):
Mm hmm.
Sharee (17:18):
around why we have reached the positions we each
have on on our framework. Andactually it opens up some really
rich discussion. And often I'vefound that we can sit and listen
to the tumuaki, and the kaiakoor heads actually have a
discussion amongst themselvesabout, oh okay , you know, so it
brings about some really gooddiscussion. And we from there
(17:41):
just come to an agreeance reallyon where we think the school is
positioned and the way forward
Eleisha (17:46):
Mm
Sharee (17:46):
for improvement on that. So there may be things we've
missed as well, we're only we'rein there for a day and a half so
it's that opportunity then to todig a bit deeper and have a
little bit more of a look around.What is it that we've missed?
You know, it's an opportunityfor the school to provide their
narrative around where they arepositioned and where they're
(18:06):
headed on the improvementjourney. So really transparent.
We go away, we formulate ourfindings, the learner outcomes,
conditions that are supportingthose outcomes and what our next
steps are going to be workingtogether. So there's different
layers for how we're able tosupport schools depending on
where we sort of landed on onthe framework and depending on
(18:29):
where they're at will as Shanehas said drive the
recommendations that we make -is that at the higher level, and
there needs to be, you know,maybe too many visits, for
example, or we're sort ofsitting on a they're doing fine,
self-evaluation, the school canself evaluate and we'll check in
annually with the documentationfor example. So yeah, very
(18:50):
transparent there's no surprises.
Eleisha (18:52):
So, does ERO help set up that support where it's
needed or is it a referralprocess to the Ministry? How to
how does that kind of work?
Shane (19:00):
It's usually a referral process. So one of the things
that I think is really, reallyimportant to remember is that
your ERO evaluation partner isnot a professional learning
provider. So short answer to thequestion, if we think some
support could be useful for theschool, then that's usually a
recommendation to the Ministryof Education that they look at
providing that support for theschool.
Eleisha (19:20):
Okay. And that can range from what? Leadership
support through?
Shane (19:24):
Yes it can. It could be coming in to help the board
write an action plan.
Eleisha (19:28):
Mm hmm.
Shane (19:28):
It could be a range of interventions. If you want the
list it's section 171 of theEducation Act. So there's about
ten different kinds ofinterventions that we could
request or supports that we canrequest. It could be some work
around helping the school aroundtheir assessment tools and their
use of assessment for learningor for knowing about students.
It could be all those kinds ofthings through to what people
(19:51):
would know is the the kind ofbiggest intervention, which
would be the appointment of alimited statutory manager or a
commissioner.
Eleisha (19:57):
Mm hmm.
Shane (19:58):
There's also the other stuff that we could do, which
could be, can we put you intouch with somebody else who is
doing something similar butmight be a little bit further
down the track than you? Andlots of schools have got support
in place anyway. So we might say,you know, are you working with
somebody on this and you'vealready got a provider that's
helping you or a new principalmentor that's helping you with
that.
Eleisha (20:16):
Yeah. So a wide range of things. When a new tumuaki
steps in the building, how canthey get their head around where
a school is in that review cycleor where they are in the
improvement journey?
Shane (20:28):
So I think step number one would be have a look at your
school's most recent EducationReview Office report, which
you'll find online because thatwill set a couple of things for
you. It'll say what it is thatwe've agreed that we're going to
work on and evaluate togetherover the rest of the cycle. The
date will give you an indicationof when, when things are going
(20:49):
to move towards hauhake, becauseevery school, once they're in to
Te Aro Huarau, is on a threeyear review cycle.
Eleisha (20:56):
Yeah.
Shane (20:56):
So we have a consistent cycle now for schools. We
usually know when the principalhas changed in a school and we
work in a couple of differentways. We kind of think about
let's just give them a chance toput their feet under the desk,
you know, to learn where thingsare, to learn the names of their
staff before we're in. Itdepends on where you are in the
cycle. So we might often make nocontact at all for quite some
(21:19):
weeks. And then just, you know,pop an email to say, introducing
myself, let's set up a videoconference time just to talk
with where is the school at inthe cycle? What was it the
school said that they were goingto work on? Where we're up to,
what are the timeframes for that.If you come in and you're
worried and you really, reallywant to know, you can just
contact the Education ReviewOffice through the website and
(21:40):
ask for the evaluation partnerjust to be in touch. And we're
really happy to do that.
Sharee (21:45):
I'll just add Eleisha, if there is a rumaki or
bilingual unit in the school andyou're new, you might go online
and read your latest report. Ifthe rumaki or bilingual unit
seem invisible in that reportthen again, reach out to your
evaluation partner if you as anew tumuaki would like maybe
some idea of what's happening inthat space or some support in
that space. Again, reach out ifit does seem invisible in the,
(22:09):
in the report.
Eleisha (22:11):
And how can they find out who their evaluation partner
is?
Shane (22:14):
Fairly simple. There's a contact details on on the
Education Review website and youcan just go on there, fill out
the request which could be couldmy evaluation partner please get
in touch with me, I'm a newprincipal at whichever school,
and we'll we'll make that happenfor you.
Eleisha (22:34):
Cool. I'd like to finish up by asking each of you
for your advice to a new tumuakiapproaching an ERO review. Maybe
start with you, Stephen
Stephen (22:45):
I suppose for me, it's just about relishing the
experience, take a veryinquiring approach and be open
and transparent. And that's,that's pretty much it.
Eleisha (22:54):
Sharee.
Sharee (22:55):
Yeah. Being open and honest and trying to keep the
nerves in check because it is itis a different process now from
perhaps years gone by. That EROis there to support the
improvement journey. And just bewell-read go into the ERO
website, have a look around,familiarise yourself with what
it is that will be undertakenprior to the visit.
Eleisha (23:17):
Thank you. Nick
Nick (23:19):
I guess the best piece of advice I've been given from a
leadership mentor is that in aschool you are essentially a
self-managing entity so you cancontrol every aspect of life as
best you can and seek supportwhen you need it. And this is
all part of that process I guessof support and we all need a bit
of advice and guidance at times.And if we do it together, it's a
(23:40):
heck of a lot easier thanfeeling like it's all being done
to you.
Eleisha (23:44):
For sure. Shane.
Shane (23:46):
I think the advice that I would give is work with your
evaluation partner. Get to knowthem fairly soon when you're
ready, once you've started in anew school. Do some reading, but
also talk to them about whereare we up to in the process,
where do you expect as anevaluation partner you're going
to be coming in and interactingwith the school? As a new
principal you might want to ask,what do you need from us within
the next three months? Is thereanything that immediately needs
(24:07):
to happen? Or is this somethingyou know, I don't expect to see
you or hear from you for sixmonths. So where are we up to in
the cycle? Where are we in theprocess? And any questions you
have about the process? Really,really important.
Eleisha (24:20):
Thank you. Wow, that sounds, that's a very different
process than the one that, youknow, I used to read about in
the newspaper. It sounds a lotmore gentle and collaborative, I
think. Thank you all very muchfor your time today. I
appreciate you giving your timeand sharing your knowledge.
Nick (24:35):
Ka kite. Thank
Eleisha (24:36):
Thank
Nick (24:36):
you.
Eleisha (24:36):
you,
Interview (24:37):
Thanks for the opportunity. It was good fun.
Eleisha (24:39):
Thanks. We're changing gears in the next episodes.
We're going to be focusing onproperty, starting with the
basics of property admin,planning and funding. See you
next time.
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