March 24, 2025 • 30 mins
As tumuaki, and as part of the board, you have a key role in managing school property, but no one expects you to be the expert. As principal, you’ll need to build and maintain strong working relationships with your Ministry of Education property adviser, consultants and project managers, so you’ll know where to go for help and recognise when you need it. Today, we’ll give you an introduction to property administration, funding and planning in state schools, including a key document - your ten year property plan, which includes your five year agreement or 5YA.
Note: a 10YPP contains: - a property assessment - a 10 year maintenance plan for the school (including a cyclical maintenance schedule for things like repainting) and - a 10 year capital works plan - split into a current 5YA and a proposed future 5YA.
My guests are:
- De Thomson, Ministry of Education Infrastructure manager Otago/Southland
- Blair Dravitski, principal of Lemonwood Grove School
- John Prestidge, tumuaki of Motueka High School
This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education as part of Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals.
You can learn more about this topic by accessing Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals e-learning modules on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz
Episode themes:
- Role and responsibilities of Ministry in school property
- Principal’s role and responsibilities in school property
- Who to talk to for help with property
Additional information
- Ministry of Education property portal https://property.education.govt.nz
- Facilities and operations https://www.education.govt.nz/education-professionals/schools-year-0-13/facilities-and-operations
Questions
2:20 [De] What’s the Ministry’s role and responsibilities when it comes to an individual school?
2:52 [De] What’s a school principal’s role and responsibilities when it comes to property at their state school?
3:13 [De] Who should be a principal’s go-to people for help with property?
4:14 [De] What does the Ministry expect of tumuaki when it comes to property?
6:14 [Blair] Had you had any experience with property management when you first started as principal?
6:31 [Blair] How did you get your head around the school’s property and what you needed to know?
7:35 [John] And had you had any property experience before you became a principal?
8:44 [De] John mentioned there the five year plan and the ten year property plan. De can you explain more about the ten year property plan and the 5YA?
10:34 [De] You mentioned there funding for property, and there's all sorts of different pots of funding. Can you explain, what are the different forms of funding that a school gets for its property?
11:38 [De] Is there an easy place that tumuaki can go to access funding information about their school property?
12:40 [John then Blair] What do you think some of the key terms that a new tumuaki should get their head around when it comes to property would be?
20:26 [John] You mentioned before that you had a property manager, is that who takes responsibility for the property in your school?
23:26 [Blair] Who looks after property in your kura?
25:40 [All] What’s your advice for new tumuaki trying to understand their new responsibilities for property?
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eleisha (00:07):
Kia ora and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new tumuaki in Aotearoa NewZealand. I'm Eleisha McNeill. As
tumuaki and as part of the board,you have a key role in managing
school property, but no oneexpects you to be the expert. As
principal, you need to build andmaintain strong working
relationships with your Ministryof Education property advisor,
(00:29):
consultants and project managers.Today, we'll give you an
introduction to state schoolproperty, and we'll talk about
two key documents - your tenyear property plan and your five
year agreement or 5YA. Just areminder that you can find more
information about this and othertopics in the e-learning modules,
and there's a link to those inthe show notes. Here are my
(00:49):
guests.
So, hi, I'm De Thompson. I'm aninfrastructure manager for the
Ministry of Education based inthe Dunedin office, and I've
worked with the Ministry forjust gone nine years now.
John (01:01):
Oh kia ora koutou, ko John Prestige toku ingoa, tumuaki o
Te Kura Tuarua o Motueka. I'mJohn Prestidge, I've just done
nine years at Motueka HighSchool in the top of the South
Island. Every year we've had atleast one, most years, three or
four different property projectson the go. It is a complex area,
but a kind of a fun area becauseit's all about school
(01:22):
improvement and environmentimprovement so it's kind of a
great area of school leadershipto be in.
Blair (01:29):
Kia ora koutou, ko Blair Dravitski toku ingoa, ko te
tumuaki Te Uru Tarata LemonwoodGrove School. My name is Blair
Dravitski. I've been principalnow for 11 years. This is my
third principalship afterpreviously being in charge of
Ohakune Primary School andLinwood Ave Primary School. And
now I'm at Lemonwood Grove herein Rolleston, the fastest
growing community in the country.And I think my build experience
(01:53):
has been the last eight years atLinwood Ave, post-earthquake
build and sort of refurb andthen obviously new build out
here at Lemonwood, which hasbeen built in three stages over
the last eight years so.
Eleisha (02:05):
Sounds like we've got the right people on the panel.
Thank you all for joining metoday. We've got quite a lot to
cover, so I'll crack right intoit, starting with you, De. So
the government owns or leasesschool property, and the
Ministry of Education isresponsible for managing that
property portfolio. What's theMinistry's role and
responsibilities when it comesto an individual school's
(02:27):
property?
Yeah, sure. So I guess in broadterms, th Ministry is
responsible for supporting andfunding schools to ensure that
the schools are well-maintained,functional and fit for purpose.
And that encompasses every daymaintenance, upgrades, roll
growth, redevelopment, buildingreplacement, unexpected damage
(02:48):
from and remediation of and muchmore.
And in terms of a school principal's role and
responsibilities when it comesto their state school, what are
they responsible for?
So again, in broad terms,because it is quite vast when it
comes to property, I wouldprobably say that a principal
and their board are responsiblefor maintaining and upgrading
that school property withinbudget and to compliance
(03:11):
standards.
Right. In a nutshell, that's pretty good. And who
should be their go-to people forhelp with property?
Absolutely. So every schoolthroughout the country has a
dedicated property advisor and Iwould say that is your number
one go to. They work withschools as part of a wider
regional and national propertyteam. So they'd be your first
(03:32):
point of contact for anythingproperty related. But they're
also really helpful as thatconduit between schools and
Ministry subject matter expertswe have in-house. And how do you
find them so you can find themeasily on our education website
by searching property staffcontacts and navigating to your
region or you simply just ringyour regional office and you
(03:54):
will get put through to yourproperty team. Additionally, if
you were to find yourself in anysort of emergency property
situation after hours or onweekends, the Ministry also have
contracted emergency responsecoordinators that are on call 24
seven and those contacts arealso on the education website or
via your property advisor.
Oh, that's helpful. So what does the Ministry expect
(04:17):
principals to know aboutproperty? Do they expect
principals to be propertyexperts?
Absolutely not. It's fair to saythere is so much to learn and
navigate with property whenyou're a leader of a school and
we know that property, whilstit's very important to the
property team, it' one smallelement of what a school leader
takes care of day to day. So wedon't expect school leaders to
(04:38):
be property experts day one oror even day 100 for that matter.
I guess the property occupancydocument is a really good
document to outline generalroles and responsibilities,
Hm.
but I would highly recommend itfor any new school leader, you
reach out and find out who yourproperty advisor is, arrange a
time for that meet and greet andand we'll meet and greet in a
(05:01):
way that suits you, so we'llcome armed with our property 101
presentation, or we'll comearmed with what's on top for you
right now. What do you need toknow now as you're learning the
ropes? And then we'll supportyou as you move on through
through the role of leading aschool.
So you provide kind of like a a learning session on
property for new principals.
Yes. Yes. So a property advisoris tasked to present that
(05:24):
property 101 within the firstfew months of a new principal
starting at a school. It's a lotof information, so we wouldn't
come and say, we must presentyou the information, you must
know all about property, we'llwork with you so we can do that
by coming to see you, Teams-ingwith you, email or phone. But
yeah, we'll present to you allyou need to know so that you are
(05:45):
armed when you're starting andyou know what's happening as you
go through.
That's cool. So you're not expecting a new tumuaki to
engage with the Ministry'sproperty people on day one or
even in the first week or fewweeks?
No, not at all. I mean, you'llknow when you start at a school
if you're mid-construction so itmight be topical and you might
(06:05):
want to do that, but weabsolutely won't be, you know,
your first person you want tospeak to when you're starting
your new role. We're here,though.
Yeah, that's cool. I just wanted to ask Blair, have
you had you had any experiencewith property management when
you first started as a principal?
Blair (06:22):
No, absolutely none. absolutely nothing. I wouldn't
even say I was handy on thetools myself as a DIY expert. I,
yeah, it was completely newterritory for me.
Eleisha (06:31):
Oh, wow. So how did you get your head around your
school's property and what youneeded to know when you first
started as, as a tumuaki.
Blair (06:38):
Yeah,it was, it was full on because um De mentioned you
have an opportunity to connectwith your Ministry advisors and
work out who best person toliaise with. Each build project
has been different. De mentionedthe plethora of people that are
at the Ministry with differentexpertise. When you're building
a new school, I think we'veworked with 28 different
(06:58):
Ministry workers during
Eleisha (07:00):
Wow
Blair (07:00):
that process throughout the time. So it is it is a
challenge, but lots of reading,lots of I guess, taking on what
the Ministry is sharing, but atthe same time making sure that
you're being diligent in yourapproach to ensuring that you're
getting what you need and whatyou deserve and what you're
entitled to as part of theprocess. Because sometimes
(07:21):
there's some different papersand different booklets and
different specifics that changeso regularly even sometimes the
Ministry aren't necessarily upto speed with what's the current
documentation so that's beentime consuming, but well worth
it in the long run.
Eleisha (07:34):
And what about you, John? Had you had any property
experience before you became aprincipal?
John (07:39):
No, um not not beyond some house renovations, which are
really not relevant in any way,shape or form when you look at
complexity of a school situation,so no. When I got to Motueka
High School were really makingthose relationships,
particularly with the Ministryproperty advisor, also with
regular project manager andreally trying to get a good
(07:59):
overview of the criticalmaintenance work through the
five year property plan andthrough the ten year property
plan and what those projectslook like. So that was the big
stuff. At that time, the exacttime I got here here was a
significant project underwaybuilding a wharenui at the
school and that was throughpartnership with a whole lot of
funding organisations, includingthe Ministry of Education. Blair
mentioned this, you end uphaving not one relationship, not
(08:22):
one source of information. Youhave to recognise which project
is coming from where, what theparameters of that are, who's
going to be driving that, whoyour liaison there is because
it's often not the same personas your regional advisor. So
just being really cognizant ofthat and making sure that you
are across all of thoserelationships.
Eleisha (08:43):
You mentioned there the five year plan and the and the
ten year property plan, whichare pretty key terms. De can you
explain a bit more about the tenyear property plan and also
about the 5YA or five year plan?
So that ten year property planis the document that identifies
and then documents the projectsfor capital upgrades,
modernizing or replacing yourexisting property.
(09:07):
Mm hmm.
It is it does prioritize andschedule the projects for the
first five years, the fundedyears of the ten year property
plan. But it does document theprojects that might feature in
years 6 to 10
Right.
which is effectively your nextfive year agreement funding,
next 5YA. The plan also recordsyour building data, all your
(09:29):
building stock you have atschool. And I would say that is
incredibly important to ensureit is accurate because it is
that building data that helps tocalculate your future funding,
so if in any doubt around abuilding not being recorded
accurately, talk to yourproperty advisor, we'll update
our asset data. It also looks atyour current and projected roll
(09:50):
numbers so that we can determineare you carrying too much
property stock and you'respreading your funding too thin
to try and maintain it, upgradeit? Or are you forecasted to
need growth? The plan is a basisfor us looking into the future
and saying, is this going tohappen. In terms of writing the
ten year property plan, theMinistry will appoint you a
(10:11):
Ministry-engaged consultant tohold the pen, develop the plan
and draft it, but the school'sinput is vital. That is the
condition assessment, it'sunderstanding your site, it's
talking to those people that usethe buildings. Because you'll
know which building is activelyleaking versus the sunny day we
inspected the roofs and therewas no sign of a leak.
(10:33):
And you mentioned there funding for property, and
there's all sorts of differentpots of funding. So can you
explain what are the differentforms of funding that a school
gets for its property?
Sure. So you'll have your 5YA,your five year agreement funding,
funds the first five years ofyour ten year property plan.
Additional to that, you'll haveyour furniture and equipment
funding. There is propertymaintenance grant funding that's
(10:57):
your operational funding tomaintain your stock, day to day
operational matters. There'salso vandalism funding that
allows you to repair wilfuldamage or loss of part of a
school site or buildings thatdoesn't occur from wear and tear.
There's many, many fundingsources that principals just
won't know about. So I think allI would say is if if you have an
(11:19):
issue and you think, how do Ifund this, how does this get
repaired, contact your propertyadvisor we'll talk you through
the options.
Blair (11:27):
yeah for us, we had a child in a wheelchair, we needed
wheelchair accessibility. Soproperty modifications through
an occupational therapist isactually different to the
property plan. You can accessfunding through a different
pathway for that.
Eleisha (11:38):
Oh, cool. And is there an easy place that tumuaki can
go to access funding informationabout their school property.
Sure. So as always, theeducation website has a lot of
useful information, as does theproperty portal, which you can
access via the education website,enter your school name or school
number, and you can look at whatyour operational grant funding
(12:01):
is. Other funding that comesfrom the Ministry will be
advised through your ten yearproperty plan portal. So
everything is computer based,but please don't spend forever
using keywords and searchingwebsites and trying to find the
data. Your property advisor willpoint you in the right direction.
And rest assured them myproperty team work really
closely with our school financeadviser too, because lot of our
(12:24):
work overlaps.
Mm
So you'd be surprised if you'verung for something that might be
property related, we will alsobring in the school finance
adviser because they they haveso many implications for schools
if things don't go rightthroughout the project.
Cool. So we've talked there about the five year
property plan and the ten yearproperty plan, 5YA and 10YPP,
(12:49):
John and Blair, what do youthink some of the key terms that
a new tumuaki should get theirhead around when it comes to
property would be. Starting withyou, John.
John (12:59):
Yeah, I think probably the biggest one for me and maybe
talk a little bit about thecycle first because that kind of
leads into it. So that propertyplan to be really clear that
that's the maintenance of theexisting buildings, that's
maintaining the schoolenvironment, maintaining what's
there to a good condition.
Eleisha (13:15):
You're talking about the 10 year property plan there?
John (13:18):
Yeah, yeah I am sorry, yep. And so having somebody who can
lead that project well, thatsets up all of the projects that
happen and the funding that goeswith that so that's really
critical. The really importantpart of that is the condition
assessment that happens as partof process of doing that
planning, so that really goodreview of what shape are various
parts of your school in. And andI say that because that's been
(13:42):
an issue for us over a couple ofcycles where the project
managers of the projects as theyroll through, so it might be a
roofing project, will run thoseprojects, will lead those
projects, but they will do so onthe basis of the condition
assessment that has been done todevelop the property maintenance
plan. If there's a disconnectthere, I've had that a couple of
times where the project manageris coming on, why are we doing
(14:04):
that roof, that roof's waybetter condition than that roof
over there why are we, and sothere's a straight away a
disconnect. And then you have togo back to the Ministry and go
well, actually the property plansays we're redoing the library
roof, but the tech block groupis the one that's leaking like a
sieve, and it hasn't been pickedup in the condition assessment.
So the key thing I think forprincipals is in that condition
(14:25):
assessment, make sure you havereally drilled into that and
asked, you know, how come thatroof, not that roof, how come
those windows are okay and thoseones aren't, really drill into
that with the people who aredoing your five year ten year
plan because it's kind of hardto change that later and it can
really derail your projectslater. And again, as the
Ministry expects that acondition assessment to be
(14:46):
accurate because they expectthat the highest priority things
will be done first, becausethere isn't a whole bunch of
money that they're going to bewilling to throw in because
you've fixed one roof thatdidn't really need it and now
another one is leaking. The onlyother one that I'd chuck in
there and again, this is throughsome experience and it's partly
to do with the maintenanceplanning, but also partly to do
with new builds and refurbs isthe word variations.
Eleisha (15:07):
Mm
John (15:08):
Be on alert for anything that's labelled as a variation
because a variation carries costand risk to the school. So you
agree on the scope of theproject, the project manager
goes off to lead that projectwith the budget. They then are
working with the contractors orwhoever's doing the work. And
then every single time whateverteam is doing the work will come
(15:28):
and go, would you like us to dothis or should we do this at the
same time? Or it would makesense to now do this bit of work
because we're halfway through itanyway. Should we talk about a
variation to the contract? Andevery variation you agree to
will carry a cost
Eleisha (15:42):
hmm.
John (15:43):
and that cost will be out of the scope of the project.
That's why it's a variation. Sowe've had to work very hard with
some of our contractors to gothe caretaker as he wanders past
has not got the authority toapprove a variation. Right. The
teacher who wanders through andgoes it'd be really nice if that
door was shifted three feet tothe left, they do not have the
authority to actually create avariation. Variations must be
(16:05):
through writing to the projectmanager, agreed to by the school
and it would be me or we do havea property manager here, so
those are the two things I'd bevery very clear about - what
does your condition assessmentcover and do you agree with it?
Is that focusing on the areas ofthe school that you believe are
the highest priority? And makesure you've got a really rock
solid process for approvingvariations because they will
(16:25):
bite you at the end of thecontract if you don't have
control of them through thecontract.
That is amazing advice, John. Icouldn't agree more.
Eleisha (16:31):
Blair, what would you add?
Blair (16:33):
Yeah, I agree with a lot of what John was saying. I think
process is huge. The part thatwe, I outsource the actual plan
itself. So I, I get a group tocome in and work with me too,
because Ministry paperwork isvery process driven.
Eleisha (16:47):
Hmm
Blair (16:48):
You know, I'm okay with it. But there are experts in the
field that do it all the timethat you can sit with and so
they actually make sure thatthings get ticked off, like John
mentioned, the priority list.Just because you want a new turf
or you want autex on the wallsof a building, if your roof's
leaking and there's other issuesthat you need to fix, they take
greater priority. But
Eleisha (17:05):
hmm
Blair (17:06):
again, when you come into a school, sometimes you want to
make the point, you want to makea difference. An people say that
looks nice, but if the roof isleaking, then it's not going to
last long anyway. So those arethe types of conversations you
have to be comfortable with andunderstand that actually it is a
ten year property plan. So itmight be year number eight, nine
and ten that you get some of theniceties. But initially you have
to fix the immediate concernsaround health and safety mainly.
(17:27):
The other part that I sort ofjotted down was like what's in
the plan can change or and again,it does create some work for you.
But there are times like we justhad one recently, where part of
our buildings internally werebeing painted, well actually
this part of the building, theoffice has less traffic because
it doesn't have the children init.
Eleisha (17:43):
hmm.
Blair (17:43):
So therefore that was part of the original plan. So we
just made adaptions and changesto the plan as part of the
process. So if you haveinherited a property plan that
actually there's pieces in therethat maybe aren't as a priority
or not at the same timing thatit should be done, or you need
to bring things forward, youjust need to talk to the
Ministry people around aroundthat and get advice about how to
do that. And just around if youdo walk into a school and your
(18:07):
budget has been spent andthere's actually those high
priority emergency things thatneed doing. There is funding to
to support that need.
Absolutely. And I think that's athat is a really important
message actually. Your ten yearplan has been approved today. I
will ask my team to work withschools to spend and commence
(18:28):
your projects as soon as you canso that you do benefit from what
you've planned out of your tenyear plan.
Eleisha (18:34):
hmm.
Bu if if somewhere along those 0to 5 years, something happens
that wasn't planned for and it'sessential infrastructure, it's
weather tightness, it's buildingquality or integrity, we will
fund you to keep your buildingswarm, weathertight, functional.
There are additional fundingsources that come to the party
if you have an unexpected issuethat wasn't foreseen in the ten
(18:58):
year property plan.
Blair (18:59):
Because some principals do live in fear too with that.
So they they hold onto it, theysave it like it's for a rainy
day and then nothing happens andthen they haven't used it. So I
guess it's a nice backup to bereassured that if you do use it
as per your plan and then theboiler explodes or there's black
mould or there's some unforeseencircumstance, you're not gonna
end up in principal jail becauseyou've because you've followed
(19:22):
the plan and then something'shappened unexpected and the
board doesn't have a budget forthat either. So yeah.
Absolutely. Don't, don't sit onyour learning environment
upgrades because unfortunatelyif your roof does start leaking,
you will have to defer doingyour learning environment
upgrade to fund your roof. Butif you've already upgraded your
learning environment, that moneyis spent. We still have to
Eleisha (19:42):
Mm
fix your leaking roof.
John (19:43):
I was be hesitant to say this out loud but yeah the
conventional wisdom is it'sspend your 5YA as soon as you
possibly can for that exactreason, because once it's gone,
it's been spent. If somethingunexpected and urgent happened,
the Ministry would support theschool in in making sure that
there was some remediation forthat. But again, it goes back
(20:04):
that condition assessment, ifit's listed on the condition
assessment and you've gone aheadspent it anyway then actually
that's on you.
Yeah. And it's a snapshot intime, right? You've planned for
the ten year property plan atthat moment in time.
Infrastructure fails. We areaware of that.
Eleisha (20:20):
hmm.
We will work with you and we'llmake sure that things are safe
and able to be occupied.
Great. So, John, you mentioned before that you had a
property manager, is that whotakes responsibility for the
property in your school?
John (20:34):
Essentially yes, so and then financial officer as well
so they are very criticallylinked. We worked very closely
together on individual projectsand as she reports on the
finances monthly, and we have afinance committee as part of the
board, property is part of thatdiscussion too. So that's that's
the conduit to the board oftrustees as well, especially
(20:56):
around things like variations orthings we identify as risks to
the board or that can carryfinancial liabilities. So really
critical that those are forwardand timely wise. So she manages
both of those. Whe I firststarted as a principal and Blair
might have had similarexperiences, project managers
prided themselves on theirability to play with the smoke
(21:16):
and mirrors and to and to weavea course through various
legislations or various fundingstreams to stretch projects to
do more than the scope of theproject would necessarily allow.
And it was a moment in time forsome of those project managers
that that was part of the game,was part of how they operated.
The Ministry over the nine yearsI've been principal anyway have
become more and more consistentand rigorous in the use of
(21:40):
property funds, in theallocation of those funds, those
games simply don't work anymore.If you if you overspend on a
project in the expectation thatthe Ministry are going to bail
you out or they're going toapprove an extra spend, then
those days are long gone. Thatwill not happen. You do have to
stay in scope. It's critical youstay in scope. So the way the
school has to manage that ismaking sure that they have a
(22:02):
very reliable project managerwho communicates well with the
school, especially aroundinvoicing and around any
potential variations, and thatthe property manager at the
school is well informed and ableto inform the board if there are
any risks coming up. That's thehole we fell into about four
years ago where we had projectswhere there was creep, and it
(22:22):
did create liability for theboard and we're still paying for
that essentially, as we'retidying some of those projects
up. We've ended up with greatprojects, w ended up with more
than we should have, but we haveneeded to pay for that and we
hadn't planned for it. So thatproject manager relationship is
critical.
Eleisha (22:39):
hmm
John (22:39):
And if you ever get an inkling that you're not getting
really good information fromyour project manager, my advice
would be to act on that reallyquickly because your liabilities
that accumulate from decisions,the board have to carry them.
And not many schools are sittingout there with a large suitcase
full of money that they don'tknow what to do with. So you do
(22:59):
have to pay attention to that.That was that was probably my
big learning that I was going toput in today was was just making
sure that your projectmanagement is super reliable,
very transparent, very timely.
Eleisha (23:10):
hmm
John (23:11):
So you don't get to an end of a project and you're looking
to sign things off and closeprojects off and suddenly you
get this unexpected invoice forsomething that you didn't think
was going to be included,because the Ministry they won't
come and bail you out of that
Eleisha (23:23):
hmm hmm
John (23:23):
because that's your job to manage that.
Eleisha (23:25):
Blair, who looks after property in your kura.
Blair (23:29):
Yes. So that's that's me in my environment. Probably with
a new build, just having thetime. With the new build project
I was fortunate that theMinistry granted some additional
staffing to allow my DP to dosome work that I would normally
do so I could focus on this as aas a big
Eleisha (23:46):
Mm
Blair (23:46):
project
Eleisha (23:46):
hmm
Blair (23:47):
due to the growth of our community. And it's to be fair,
probably in my nature, becauseI'd previously built a another
school, it just kind of myexpertise I think would be
helpful. Most of the buildingacronyms that various different
tradies used, I had been inenough meetings to know what
most of them meant and thatwould be advice too. Like if you
don't know what an acronym means,just like we educationalise
(24:09):
people all the time and usejargon, ask questions, just stop
the meeting and say, Look, canyou please explain what that
acronym means? What is it?Whatdoes it relate to? The other
thing I heard John mention wasaround invoicing.
Eleisha (24:19):
Yeah.
Blair (24:20):
The invoicing comes to your school because that freaked
me out the first time when I gota bill for $80,000 and I thought
the Ministry was paying and theydo pay, but you pay the invoice
and then you invoice theMinistry as part of the project
because you think that you'vedone something wrong when they
bill you.S just little thingsthat come up along the way. But,
you know, for me, it's it's it'sall me. And that probably
(24:41):
somewhat of my personality aswell. I like to have control
over these big projects becauseit was a multi-million dollar
project and we needed to makesure that I was able to I was
provided the time, do thereadings in regards to what we
were entitled to. So it's just abig, big job. And the
environment you're in as you'redoing these projects because
traditionally every school wantsthem done in the holidays so
(25:03):
they don't have the scope ofwork for every company to do
only the holiday work. Sosometimes you are literally
running a school while you'vegot build projects happening
Eleisha (25:12):
hmm hmm
Blair (25:13):
at the same time concurrently. So managing health
and safety is huge, which is theother reason that I take it on
board, because again, not afraidto tell tradies or tell
construction people on the day,hey guys, this is serious. We've
got this many kids on site. Whatare your procedures around
ensuring that our site is safeand there is no way that these
(25:33):
children are going to beimpacted as part of this project.
So that would be why I'm sort ofleading it here.
Eleisha (25:40):
Yeah. That's great. I want to to finish up by asking
what would your advice be fornew tumuaki just arriving in a
school and into principalshipand trying to understand their
new responsibilities forproperty. Maybe start with you,
De.
Yeah, sure, I would absolutely,and it's been a really common
theme through all we've talkedabout today is start to build
(26:03):
those relationships with yourMinistry property advisor, or
your Ministry property team,your project manager, who you
might have currently undercontract at your school, talk to
your school staff who haveexperienced the buildings that
you're new to so they know whatcondition they're in, how well
do they function, do they haveissues? If you have the time
(26:24):
browse the website for propertyand the learning management
system. But those things cancome. I think the really common
theme, which I stress iscommunicate with everyone, ask
the questions, don't burdenyourself looking for something
that can be hard to find. Reachout to those subject matter
experts within the Ministry. Letus help you.
(26:44):
Yeah. John.
John (26:46):
Probably two ends of the same bit of string really. One,
I entirely agree with De, get toknow your regional advisor for
property. Let them walk youthrough what they see in your
school and where variousprojects are at. At the other
end of it, walk around theschool with your caretaker, with
your cleaners and do your owncondition assessment get to know
(27:07):
where the dark horrible cornersare, which buildings have got
rotten boards on the outside orwhere there's a leak coming down
the road, down the wall, get toknow that stuff. Cleaners know
that stuff, caretakers know thatstuff. And you will get a view
from teachers. But the teacherslike like principals they will
advocate for their own space andeverything will be urgent. So so
get out and kick the tires andtalk to the people who actually
(27:31):
have to deal with a daily basis.
Eleisha (27:32):
Awesome. Blair.
Blair (27:34):
Yeah get a full scope of the work. So I think John
touched on it. It's urgent foreveryone because it's relative
to them. You can't do everythingat the same time. So being able
to, I guess, be able to say noor leave it with me prior to
saying yes and then ten stepsdown the next classroom's in a
far worse condition and yourealize that that yes is going
to be a five years away yes.Also too if you've got scenarios,
(27:58):
you know, talk to the Ministry,but also too, colleagues like
myself and John, principalcolleagues are really happy to
pick up the phone and and talkyou through it. We were there
once. We're really, really happyto answer questions. And what
usually happens is things likeI've had a child arrive who's
got this particular like, theymight be blind. Is there any
funding for this within propertyfunding to help support this
(28:19):
child's, you know, integrationinto my kura? Because you don't
know what you don't know. And sothey've always been quite
helpful conversations that I'vefound. I'm also in New Zealand
Principals Federation. So for methere's an NZPF helpline, which
is another great place to ringif you've got questions not just
about property, but aboutanything. And then for me, I'm
really lucky. I've got a greatproperty advisor who who's happy
(28:41):
to come out as well, which Ithink is probably one thing
being in a in a big city. He'smore than happy to make the time
to come out and visit the school,which I think that, you know,
face to face contact is reallyhelpful at times, especially if
you're new and you want to ask,I guess,maybe what you perceive
as being silly questions or whatshould be obvious because
property is definitely an areathat's not in the manual when it
(29:03):
comes to becoming a principal,you don't ever do it as a
teacher and alongside that,being transparent with your
staff saying, well, you know,we've got X amount of money,
it's called a 5YA and a ten yearproperty plan for a reason, it
doesn't all get spent in thefirst 5 minutes. It needs to be
carefully planned out and that'smy job. And probably lastly was
around, I like having aninfluence and I like having
(29:25):
input into my environment andwhat I can do with it. Some
aren't as interested in that andfind it another maybe burden or
a part of the job descriptionthat they could put aside. But
for me, and I'm not sure ifJohn's the same I quite enjoy
yeah being able to, to have somecontrol and autonomy over this
this area of of principalship.
John (29:44):
You know, I agree.
Eleisha (29:47):
Man on man, there's a lot of information in there.
Yeah, property is complex, butthank goodness principals don't
have to do it on their own. I
Blair (29:55):
It's all these areas that aren't in the university degree,
and aren't in the teacherhandbook, so when you step into
them, yes, it's definitelysomething you've got to learn
quickly.
John (30:04):
Yeah so you think you're being a principal to lead lead
learning, well yes you are butactually before you get to that,
pay the bills and keep thebuildings from falling over.
Eleisha (30:16):
Very important for the buildings to be standing. Thank
you all for your time today.Much appreciated.
Thanks team
John (30:21):
See you later. Bye.
Eleisha (30:22):
In the next episode, talking about buildings falling
over, we're going to talk aboutproperty maintenance. See you
next time.
Kia ora and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new tumuaki in Aotearoa NewZealand. I'm Eleisha McNeill. As
tumuaki and as part of the board,you have a key role in managing
school property, but no oneexpects you to be the expert. As
principal, you need to build andmaintain strong working
relationships with your Ministryof Education property advisor,
(00:29):
consultants and project managers.Today, we'll give you an
introduction to state schoolproperty, and we'll talk about
two key documents - your tenyear property plan and your five
year agreement or 5YA. Just areminder that you can find more
information about this and othertopics in the e-learning modules,
and there's a link to those inthe show notes. Here are my
(00:49):
guests.
So, hi, I'm De Thompson. I'm aninfrastructure manager for the
Ministry of Education based inthe Dunedin office, and I've
worked with the Ministry forjust gone nine years now.
John (01:01):
Oh kia ora koutou, ko John Prestige toku ingoa, tumuaki o
Te Kura Tuarua o Motueka. I'mJohn Prestidge, I've just done
nine years at Motueka HighSchool in the top of the South
Island. Every year we've had atleast one, most years, three or
four different property projectson the go. It is a complex area,
but a kind of a fun area becauseit's all about school
(01:22):
improvement and environmentimprovement so it's kind of a
great area of school leadershipto be in.
Blair (01:29):
Kia ora koutou, ko Blair Dravitski toku ingoa, ko te
tumuaki Te Uru Tarata LemonwoodGrove School. My name is Blair
Dravitski. I've been principalnow for 11 years. This is my
third principalship afterpreviously being in charge of
Ohakune Primary School andLinwood Ave Primary School. And
now I'm at Lemonwood Grove herein Rolleston, the fastest
growing community in the country.And I think my build experience
(01:53):
has been the last eight years atLinwood Ave, post-earthquake
build and sort of refurb andthen obviously new build out
here at Lemonwood, which hasbeen built in three stages over
the last eight years so.
Eleisha (02:05):
Sounds like we've got the right people on the panel.
Thank you all for joining metoday. We've got quite a lot to
cover, so I'll crack right intoit, starting with you, De. So
the government owns or leasesschool property, and the
Ministry of Education isresponsible for managing that
property portfolio. What's theMinistry's role and
responsibilities when it comesto an individual school's
(02:27):
property?
Yeah, sure. So I guess in broadterms, th Ministry is
responsible for supporting andfunding schools to ensure that
the schools are well-maintained,functional and fit for purpose.
And that encompasses every daymaintenance, upgrades, roll
growth, redevelopment, buildingreplacement, unexpected damage
(02:48):
from and remediation of and muchmore.
And in terms of a school principal's role and
responsibilities when it comesto their state school, what are
they responsible for?
So again, in broad terms,because it is quite vast when it
comes to property, I wouldprobably say that a principal
and their board are responsiblefor maintaining and upgrading
that school property withinbudget and to compliance
(03:11):
standards.
Right. In a nutshell, that's pretty good. And who
should be their go-to people forhelp with property?
Absolutely. So every schoolthroughout the country has a
dedicated property advisor and Iwould say that is your number
one go to. They work withschools as part of a wider
regional and national propertyteam. So they'd be your first
(03:32):
point of contact for anythingproperty related. But they're
also really helpful as thatconduit between schools and
Ministry subject matter expertswe have in-house. And how do you
find them so you can find themeasily on our education website
by searching property staffcontacts and navigating to your
region or you simply just ringyour regional office and you
(03:54):
will get put through to yourproperty team. Additionally, if
you were to find yourself in anysort of emergency property
situation after hours or onweekends, the Ministry also have
contracted emergency responsecoordinators that are on call 24
seven and those contacts arealso on the education website or
via your property advisor.
Oh, that's helpful. So what does the Ministry expect
(04:17):
principals to know aboutproperty? Do they expect
principals to be propertyexperts?
Absolutely not. It's fair to saythere is so much to learn and
navigate with property whenyou're a leader of a school and
we know that property, whilstit's very important to the
property team, it' one smallelement of what a school leader
takes care of day to day. So wedon't expect school leaders to
(04:38):
be property experts day one oror even day 100 for that matter.
I guess the property occupancydocument is a really good
document to outline generalroles and responsibilities,
Hm.
but I would highly recommend itfor any new school leader, you
reach out and find out who yourproperty advisor is, arrange a
time for that meet and greet andand we'll meet and greet in a
(05:01):
way that suits you, so we'llcome armed with our property 101
presentation, or we'll comearmed with what's on top for you
right now. What do you need toknow now as you're learning the
ropes? And then we'll supportyou as you move on through
through the role of leading aschool.
So you provide kind of like a a learning session on
property for new principals.
Yes. Yes. So a property advisoris tasked to present that
(05:24):
property 101 within the firstfew months of a new principal
starting at a school. It's a lotof information, so we wouldn't
come and say, we must presentyou the information, you must
know all about property, we'llwork with you so we can do that
by coming to see you, Teams-ingwith you, email or phone. But
yeah, we'll present to you allyou need to know so that you are
(05:45):
armed when you're starting andyou know what's happening as you
go through.
That's cool. So you're not expecting a new tumuaki to
engage with the Ministry'sproperty people on day one or
even in the first week or fewweeks?
No, not at all. I mean, you'llknow when you start at a school
if you're mid-construction so itmight be topical and you might
(06:05):
want to do that, but weabsolutely won't be, you know,
your first person you want tospeak to when you're starting
your new role. We're here,though.
Yeah, that's cool. I just wanted to ask Blair, have
you had you had any experiencewith property management when
you first started as a principal?
Blair (06:22):
No, absolutely none. absolutely nothing. I wouldn't
even say I was handy on thetools myself as a DIY expert. I,
yeah, it was completely newterritory for me.
Eleisha (06:31):
Oh, wow. So how did you get your head around your
school's property and what youneeded to know when you first
started as, as a tumuaki.
Blair (06:38):
Yeah,it was, it was full on because um De mentioned you
have an opportunity to connectwith your Ministry advisors and
work out who best person toliaise with. Each build project
has been different. De mentionedthe plethora of people that are
at the Ministry with differentexpertise. When you're building
a new school, I think we'veworked with 28 different
(06:58):
Ministry workers during
Eleisha (07:00):
Wow
Blair (07:00):
that process throughout the time. So it is it is a
challenge, but lots of reading,lots of I guess, taking on what
the Ministry is sharing, but atthe same time making sure that
you're being diligent in yourapproach to ensuring that you're
getting what you need and whatyou deserve and what you're
entitled to as part of theprocess. Because sometimes
(07:21):
there's some different papersand different booklets and
different specifics that changeso regularly even sometimes the
Ministry aren't necessarily upto speed with what's the current
documentation so that's beentime consuming, but well worth
it in the long run.
Eleisha (07:34):
And what about you, John? Had you had any property
experience before you became aprincipal?
John (07:39):
No, um not not beyond some house renovations, which are
really not relevant in any way,shape or form when you look at
complexity of a school situation,so no. When I got to Motueka
High School were really makingthose relationships,
particularly with the Ministryproperty advisor, also with
regular project manager andreally trying to get a good
(07:59):
overview of the criticalmaintenance work through the
five year property plan andthrough the ten year property
plan and what those projectslook like. So that was the big
stuff. At that time, the exacttime I got here here was a
significant project underwaybuilding a wharenui at the
school and that was throughpartnership with a whole lot of
funding organisations, includingthe Ministry of Education. Blair
mentioned this, you end uphaving not one relationship, not
(08:22):
one source of information. Youhave to recognise which project
is coming from where, what theparameters of that are, who's
going to be driving that, whoyour liaison there is because
it's often not the same personas your regional advisor. So
just being really cognizant ofthat and making sure that you
are across all of thoserelationships.
Eleisha (08:43):
You mentioned there the five year plan and the and the
ten year property plan, whichare pretty key terms. De can you
explain a bit more about the tenyear property plan and also
about the 5YA or five year plan?
So that ten year property planis the document that identifies
and then documents the projectsfor capital upgrades,
modernizing or replacing yourexisting property.
(09:07):
Mm hmm.
It is it does prioritize andschedule the projects for the
first five years, the fundedyears of the ten year property
plan. But it does document theprojects that might feature in
years 6 to 10
Right.
which is effectively your nextfive year agreement funding,
next 5YA. The plan also recordsyour building data, all your
(09:29):
building stock you have atschool. And I would say that is
incredibly important to ensureit is accurate because it is
that building data that helps tocalculate your future funding,
so if in any doubt around abuilding not being recorded
accurately, talk to yourproperty advisor, we'll update
our asset data. It also looks atyour current and projected roll
(09:50):
numbers so that we can determineare you carrying too much
property stock and you'respreading your funding too thin
to try and maintain it, upgradeit? Or are you forecasted to
need growth? The plan is a basisfor us looking into the future
and saying, is this going tohappen. In terms of writing the
ten year property plan, theMinistry will appoint you a
(10:11):
Ministry-engaged consultant tohold the pen, develop the plan
and draft it, but the school'sinput is vital. That is the
condition assessment, it'sunderstanding your site, it's
talking to those people that usethe buildings. Because you'll
know which building is activelyleaking versus the sunny day we
inspected the roofs and therewas no sign of a leak.
(10:33):
And you mentioned there funding for property, and
there's all sorts of differentpots of funding. So can you
explain what are the differentforms of funding that a school
gets for its property?
Sure. So you'll have your 5YA,your five year agreement funding,
funds the first five years ofyour ten year property plan.
Additional to that, you'll haveyour furniture and equipment
funding. There is propertymaintenance grant funding that's
(10:57):
your operational funding tomaintain your stock, day to day
operational matters. There'salso vandalism funding that
allows you to repair wilfuldamage or loss of part of a
school site or buildings thatdoesn't occur from wear and tear.
There's many, many fundingsources that principals just
won't know about. So I think allI would say is if if you have an
(11:19):
issue and you think, how do Ifund this, how does this get
repaired, contact your propertyadvisor we'll talk you through
the options.
Blair (11:27):
yeah for us, we had a child in a wheelchair, we needed
wheelchair accessibility. Soproperty modifications through
an occupational therapist isactually different to the
property plan. You can accessfunding through a different
pathway for that.
Eleisha (11:38):
Oh, cool. And is there an easy place that tumuaki can
go to access funding informationabout their school property.
Sure. So as always, theeducation website has a lot of
useful information, as does theproperty portal, which you can
access via the education website,enter your school name or school
number, and you can look at whatyour operational grant funding
(12:01):
is. Other funding that comesfrom the Ministry will be
advised through your ten yearproperty plan portal. So
everything is computer based,but please don't spend forever
using keywords and searchingwebsites and trying to find the
data. Your property advisor willpoint you in the right direction.
And rest assured them myproperty team work really
closely with our school financeadviser too, because lot of our
(12:24):
work overlaps.
Mm
So you'd be surprised if you'verung for something that might be
property related, we will alsobring in the school finance
adviser because they they haveso many implications for schools
if things don't go rightthroughout the project.
Cool. So we've talked there about the five year
property plan and the ten yearproperty plan, 5YA and 10YPP,
(12:49):
John and Blair, what do youthink some of the key terms that
a new tumuaki should get theirhead around when it comes to
property would be. Starting withyou, John.
John (12:59):
Yeah, I think probably the biggest one for me and maybe
talk a little bit about thecycle first because that kind of
leads into it. So that propertyplan to be really clear that
that's the maintenance of theexisting buildings, that's
maintaining the schoolenvironment, maintaining what's
there to a good condition.
Eleisha (13:15):
You're talking about the 10 year property plan there?
John (13:18):
Yeah, yeah I am sorry, yep. And so having somebody who can
lead that project well, thatsets up all of the projects that
happen and the funding that goeswith that so that's really
critical. The really importantpart of that is the condition
assessment that happens as partof process of doing that
planning, so that really goodreview of what shape are various
parts of your school in. And andI say that because that's been
(13:42):
an issue for us over a couple ofcycles where the project
managers of the projects as theyroll through, so it might be a
roofing project, will run thoseprojects, will lead those
projects, but they will do so onthe basis of the condition
assessment that has been done todevelop the property maintenance
plan. If there's a disconnectthere, I've had that a couple of
times where the project manageris coming on, why are we doing
(14:04):
that roof, that roof's waybetter condition than that roof
over there why are we, and sothere's a straight away a
disconnect. And then you have togo back to the Ministry and go
well, actually the property plansays we're redoing the library
roof, but the tech block groupis the one that's leaking like a
sieve, and it hasn't been pickedup in the condition assessment.
So the key thing I think forprincipals is in that condition
(14:25):
assessment, make sure you havereally drilled into that and
asked, you know, how come thatroof, not that roof, how come
those windows are okay and thoseones aren't, really drill into
that with the people who aredoing your five year ten year
plan because it's kind of hardto change that later and it can
really derail your projectslater. And again, as the
Ministry expects that acondition assessment to be
(14:46):
accurate because they expectthat the highest priority things
will be done first, becausethere isn't a whole bunch of
money that they're going to bewilling to throw in because
you've fixed one roof thatdidn't really need it and now
another one is leaking. The onlyother one that I'd chuck in
there and again, this is throughsome experience and it's partly
to do with the maintenanceplanning, but also partly to do
with new builds and refurbs isthe word variations.
Eleisha (15:07):
Mm
John (15:08):
Be on alert for anything that's labelled as a variation
because a variation carries costand risk to the school. So you
agree on the scope of theproject, the project manager
goes off to lead that projectwith the budget. They then are
working with the contractors orwhoever's doing the work. And
then every single time whateverteam is doing the work will come
(15:28):
and go, would you like us to dothis or should we do this at the
same time? Or it would makesense to now do this bit of work
because we're halfway through itanyway. Should we talk about a
variation to the contract? Andevery variation you agree to
will carry a cost
Eleisha (15:42):
hmm.
John (15:43):
and that cost will be out of the scope of the project.
That's why it's a variation. Sowe've had to work very hard with
some of our contractors to gothe caretaker as he wanders past
has not got the authority toapprove a variation. Right. The
teacher who wanders through andgoes it'd be really nice if that
door was shifted three feet tothe left, they do not have the
authority to actually create avariation. Variations must be
(16:05):
through writing to the projectmanager, agreed to by the school
and it would be me or we do havea property manager here, so
those are the two things I'd bevery very clear about - what
does your condition assessmentcover and do you agree with it?
Is that focusing on the areas ofthe school that you believe are
the highest priority? And makesure you've got a really rock
solid process for approvingvariations because they will
(16:25):
bite you at the end of thecontract if you don't have
control of them through thecontract.
That is amazing advice, John. Icouldn't agree more.
Eleisha (16:31):
Blair, what would you add?
Blair (16:33):
Yeah, I agree with a lot of what John was saying. I think
process is huge. The part thatwe, I outsource the actual plan
itself. So I, I get a group tocome in and work with me too,
because Ministry paperwork isvery process driven.
Eleisha (16:47):
Hmm
Blair (16:48):
You know, I'm okay with it. But there are experts in the
field that do it all the timethat you can sit with and so
they actually make sure thatthings get ticked off, like John
mentioned, the priority list.Just because you want a new turf
or you want autex on the wallsof a building, if your roof's
leaking and there's other issuesthat you need to fix, they take
greater priority. But
Eleisha (17:05):
hmm
Blair (17:06):
again, when you come into a school, sometimes you want to
make the point, you want to makea difference. An people say that
looks nice, but if the roof isleaking, then it's not going to
last long anyway. So those arethe types of conversations you
have to be comfortable with andunderstand that actually it is a
ten year property plan. So itmight be year number eight, nine
and ten that you get some of theniceties. But initially you have
to fix the immediate concernsaround health and safety mainly.
(17:27):
The other part that I sort ofjotted down was like what's in
the plan can change or and again,it does create some work for you.
But there are times like we justhad one recently, where part of
our buildings internally werebeing painted, well actually
this part of the building, theoffice has less traffic because
it doesn't have the children init.
Eleisha (17:43):
hmm.
Blair (17:43):
So therefore that was part of the original plan. So we
just made adaptions and changesto the plan as part of the
process. So if you haveinherited a property plan that
actually there's pieces in therethat maybe aren't as a priority
or not at the same timing thatit should be done, or you need
to bring things forward, youjust need to talk to the
Ministry people around aroundthat and get advice about how to
do that. And just around if youdo walk into a school and your
(18:07):
budget has been spent andthere's actually those high
priority emergency things thatneed doing. There is funding to
to support that need.
Absolutely. And I think that's athat is a really important
message actually. Your ten yearplan has been approved today. I
will ask my team to work withschools to spend and commence
(18:28):
your projects as soon as you canso that you do benefit from what
you've planned out of your tenyear plan.
Eleisha (18:34):
hmm.
Bu if if somewhere along those 0to 5 years, something happens
that wasn't planned for and it'sessential infrastructure, it's
weather tightness, it's buildingquality or integrity, we will
fund you to keep your buildingswarm, weathertight, functional.
There are additional fundingsources that come to the party
if you have an unexpected issuethat wasn't foreseen in the ten
(18:58):
year property plan.
Blair (18:59):
Because some principals do live in fear too with that.
So they they hold onto it, theysave it like it's for a rainy
day and then nothing happens andthen they haven't used it. So I
guess it's a nice backup to bereassured that if you do use it
as per your plan and then theboiler explodes or there's black
mould or there's some unforeseencircumstance, you're not gonna
end up in principal jail becauseyou've because you've followed
(19:22):
the plan and then something'shappened unexpected and the
board doesn't have a budget forthat either. So yeah.
Absolutely. Don't, don't sit onyour learning environment
upgrades because unfortunatelyif your roof does start leaking,
you will have to defer doingyour learning environment
upgrade to fund your roof. Butif you've already upgraded your
learning environment, that moneyis spent. We still have to
Eleisha (19:42):
Mm
fix your leaking roof.
John (19:43):
I was be hesitant to say this out loud but yeah the
conventional wisdom is it'sspend your 5YA as soon as you
possibly can for that exactreason, because once it's gone,
it's been spent. If somethingunexpected and urgent happened,
the Ministry would support theschool in in making sure that
there was some remediation forthat. But again, it goes back
(20:04):
that condition assessment, ifit's listed on the condition
assessment and you've gone aheadspent it anyway then actually
that's on you.
Yeah. And it's a snapshot intime, right? You've planned for
the ten year property plan atthat moment in time.
Infrastructure fails. We areaware of that.
Eleisha (20:20):
hmm.
We will work with you and we'llmake sure that things are safe
and able to be occupied.
Great. So, John, you mentioned before that you had a
property manager, is that whotakes responsibility for the
property in your school?
John (20:34):
Essentially yes, so and then financial officer as well
so they are very criticallylinked. We worked very closely
together on individual projectsand as she reports on the
finances monthly, and we have afinance committee as part of the
board, property is part of thatdiscussion too. So that's that's
the conduit to the board oftrustees as well, especially
(20:56):
around things like variations orthings we identify as risks to
the board or that can carryfinancial liabilities. So really
critical that those are forwardand timely wise. So she manages
both of those. Whe I firststarted as a principal and Blair
might have had similarexperiences, project managers
prided themselves on theirability to play with the smoke
(21:16):
and mirrors and to and to weavea course through various
legislations or various fundingstreams to stretch projects to
do more than the scope of theproject would necessarily allow.
And it was a moment in time forsome of those project managers
that that was part of the game,was part of how they operated.
The Ministry over the nine yearsI've been principal anyway have
become more and more consistentand rigorous in the use of
(21:40):
property funds, in theallocation of those funds, those
games simply don't work anymore.If you if you overspend on a
project in the expectation thatthe Ministry are going to bail
you out or they're going toapprove an extra spend, then
those days are long gone. Thatwill not happen. You do have to
stay in scope. It's critical youstay in scope. So the way the
school has to manage that ismaking sure that they have a
(22:02):
very reliable project managerwho communicates well with the
school, especially aroundinvoicing and around any
potential variations, and thatthe property manager at the
school is well informed and ableto inform the board if there are
any risks coming up. That's thehole we fell into about four
years ago where we had projectswhere there was creep, and it
(22:22):
did create liability for theboard and we're still paying for
that essentially, as we'retidying some of those projects
up. We've ended up with greatprojects, w ended up with more
than we should have, but we haveneeded to pay for that and we
hadn't planned for it. So thatproject manager relationship is
critical.
Eleisha (22:39):
hmm
John (22:39):
And if you ever get an inkling that you're not getting
really good information fromyour project manager, my advice
would be to act on that reallyquickly because your liabilities
that accumulate from decisions,the board have to carry them.
And not many schools are sittingout there with a large suitcase
full of money that they don'tknow what to do with. So you do
(22:59):
have to pay attention to that.That was that was probably my
big learning that I was going toput in today was was just making
sure that your projectmanagement is super reliable,
very transparent, very timely.
Eleisha (23:10):
hmm
John (23:11):
So you don't get to an end of a project and you're looking
to sign things off and closeprojects off and suddenly you
get this unexpected invoice forsomething that you didn't think
was going to be included,because the Ministry they won't
come and bail you out of that
Eleisha (23:23):
hmm hmm
John (23:23):
because that's your job to manage that.
Eleisha (23:25):
Blair, who looks after property in your kura.
Blair (23:29):
Yes. So that's that's me in my environment. Probably with
a new build, just having thetime. With the new build project
I was fortunate that theMinistry granted some additional
staffing to allow my DP to dosome work that I would normally
do so I could focus on this as aas a big
Eleisha (23:46):
Mm
Blair (23:46):
project
Eleisha (23:46):
hmm
Blair (23:47):
due to the growth of our community. And it's to be fair,
probably in my nature, becauseI'd previously built a another
school, it just kind of myexpertise I think would be
helpful. Most of the buildingacronyms that various different
tradies used, I had been inenough meetings to know what
most of them meant and thatwould be advice too. Like if you
don't know what an acronym means,just like we educationalise
(24:09):
people all the time and usejargon, ask questions, just stop
the meeting and say, Look, canyou please explain what that
acronym means? What is it?Whatdoes it relate to? The other
thing I heard John mention wasaround invoicing.
Eleisha (24:19):
Yeah.
Blair (24:20):
The invoicing comes to your school because that freaked
me out the first time when I gota bill for $80,000 and I thought
the Ministry was paying and theydo pay, but you pay the invoice
and then you invoice theMinistry as part of the project
because you think that you'vedone something wrong when they
bill you.S just little thingsthat come up along the way. But,
you know, for me, it's it's it'sall me. And that probably
(24:41):
somewhat of my personality aswell. I like to have control
over these big projects becauseit was a multi-million dollar
project and we needed to makesure that I was able to I was
provided the time, do thereadings in regards to what we
were entitled to. So it's just abig, big job. And the
environment you're in as you'redoing these projects because
traditionally every school wantsthem done in the holidays so
(25:03):
they don't have the scope ofwork for every company to do
only the holiday work. Sosometimes you are literally
running a school while you'vegot build projects happening
Eleisha (25:12):
hmm hmm
Blair (25:13):
at the same time concurrently. So managing health
and safety is huge, which is theother reason that I take it on
board, because again, not afraidto tell tradies or tell
construction people on the day,hey guys, this is serious. We've
got this many kids on site. Whatare your procedures around
ensuring that our site is safeand there is no way that these
(25:33):
children are going to beimpacted as part of this project.
So that would be why I'm sort ofleading it here.
Eleisha (25:40):
Yeah. That's great. I want to to finish up by asking
what would your advice be fornew tumuaki just arriving in a
school and into principalshipand trying to understand their
new responsibilities forproperty. Maybe start with you,
De.
Yeah, sure, I would absolutely,and it's been a really common
theme through all we've talkedabout today is start to build
(26:03):
those relationships with yourMinistry property advisor, or
your Ministry property team,your project manager, who you
might have currently undercontract at your school, talk to
your school staff who haveexperienced the buildings that
you're new to so they know whatcondition they're in, how well
do they function, do they haveissues? If you have the time
(26:24):
browse the website for propertyand the learning management
system. But those things cancome. I think the really common
theme, which I stress iscommunicate with everyone, ask
the questions, don't burdenyourself looking for something
that can be hard to find. Reachout to those subject matter
experts within the Ministry. Letus help you.
(26:44):
Yeah. John.
John (26:46):
Probably two ends of the same bit of string really. One,
I entirely agree with De, get toknow your regional advisor for
property. Let them walk youthrough what they see in your
school and where variousprojects are at. At the other
end of it, walk around theschool with your caretaker, with
your cleaners and do your owncondition assessment get to know
(27:07):
where the dark horrible cornersare, which buildings have got
rotten boards on the outside orwhere there's a leak coming down
the road, down the wall, get toknow that stuff. Cleaners know
that stuff, caretakers know thatstuff. And you will get a view
from teachers. But the teacherslike like principals they will
advocate for their own space andeverything will be urgent. So so
get out and kick the tires andtalk to the people who actually
(27:31):
have to deal with a daily basis.
Eleisha (27:32):
Awesome. Blair.
Blair (27:34):
Yeah get a full scope of the work. So I think John
touched on it. It's urgent foreveryone because it's relative
to them. You can't do everythingat the same time. So being able
to, I guess, be able to say noor leave it with me prior to
saying yes and then ten stepsdown the next classroom's in a
far worse condition and yourealize that that yes is going
to be a five years away yes.Also too if you've got scenarios,
(27:58):
you know, talk to the Ministry,but also too, colleagues like
myself and John, principalcolleagues are really happy to
pick up the phone and and talkyou through it. We were there
once. We're really, really happyto answer questions. And what
usually happens is things likeI've had a child arrive who's
got this particular like, theymight be blind. Is there any
funding for this within propertyfunding to help support this
(28:19):
child's, you know, integrationinto my kura? Because you don't
know what you don't know. And sothey've always been quite
helpful conversations that I'vefound. I'm also in New Zealand
Principals Federation. So for methere's an NZPF helpline, which
is another great place to ringif you've got questions not just
about property, but aboutanything. And then for me, I'm
really lucky. I've got a greatproperty advisor who who's happy
(28:41):
to come out as well, which Ithink is probably one thing
being in a in a big city. He'smore than happy to make the time
to come out and visit the school,which I think that, you know,
face to face contact is reallyhelpful at times, especially if
you're new and you want to ask,I guess,maybe what you perceive
as being silly questions or whatshould be obvious because
property is definitely an areathat's not in the manual when it
(29:03):
comes to becoming a principal,you don't ever do it as a
teacher and alongside that,being transparent with your
staff saying, well, you know,we've got X amount of money,
it's called a 5YA and a ten yearproperty plan for a reason, it
doesn't all get spent in thefirst 5 minutes. It needs to be
carefully planned out and that'smy job. And probably lastly was
around, I like having aninfluence and I like having
(29:25):
input into my environment andwhat I can do with it. Some
aren't as interested in that andfind it another maybe burden or
a part of the job descriptionthat they could put aside. But
for me, and I'm not sure ifJohn's the same I quite enjoy
yeah being able to, to have somecontrol and autonomy over this
this area of of principalship.
John (29:44):
You know, I agree.
Eleisha (29:47):
Man on man, there's a lot of information in there.
Yeah, property is complex, butthank goodness principals don't
have to do it on their own. I
Blair (29:55):
It's all these areas that aren't in the university degree,
and aren't in the teacherhandbook, so when you step into
them, yes, it's definitelysomething you've got to learn
quickly.
John (30:04):
Yeah so you think you're being a principal to lead lead
learning, well yes you are butactually before you get to that,
pay the bills and keep thebuildings from falling over.
Eleisha (30:16):
Very important for the buildings to be standing. Thank
you all for your time today.Much appreciated.
Thanks team
John (30:21):
See you later. Bye.
Eleisha (30:22):
In the next episode, talking about buildings falling
over, we're going to talk aboutproperty maintenance. See you
next time.
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