Episode 31: Managing state school property projects

Today we’re talking about state school property projects. All schools have to plan for maintenance and upgrades, as well as planning for new capital projects – like new or improved buildings. But who leads which projects, how are they planned for and funded, and what’s it like to be involved in or to lead a property project?

 

My guests are:

• De Thomson, Ministry of Education Infrastructure manager Otago/Southland
• Hugh Gully, (now retired) tumuaki of Collingwood area school
• Linda Tame, former tumuaki of Golden Bay high school.

 

This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education as part of Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals.

 

You can learn more about this topic by accessing Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals e-learning modules on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz

 

Show notes

Episode themes:

• Who leads most major school property projects.
• How the Ministry works with schools on major projects, including in the design phase.
• What to think about when involved in planning major property projects.
• The importance of the tumuaki or someone senior who knows about teaching and learning to be very involved in building projects, because the smallest decisions can sometimes make the biggest difference.
• The importance of the tumuaki understanding the scope of the project, and being able to push back when people ask for changes or for things that are out of scope. Contract variations are very costly.
• Initial planning conversations are key to agreeing on scope, setting expectations and making sure everyone is on the same page.
• Sometimes unplanned things crop up, and there’s no way to avoid variations. Work your way through those with your project person.
• Health and safety on site is everyone’s responsibility, and everyone needs to recognise and understand the part they have to play. Keeping a constant watch on everything on site and vehicles etc coming and going is a massive responsibility and is very time consuming, but essential.
• Someone needs to be the point person for the foreperson to contact with any health and safety issues. Ensure everyone knows who this person is.
• If asbestos is found there are clear guidelines, and the Minstry has in-house experts on this. Communicating with staff and community about asbestos being present is key so they don’t overreact.
• During 5YA projects a rule of thumb is that if you were to pick up your building and shake it, and something falls out, it's your furniture and equipment funding that's going to pay for those things. If it's fixed to the building and it's part of the structure of the building, then that’s paid through capital funding.

 

Additional information

Ministry of Education property portal https://property.education.govt.nz 

 

Questions

1:39 [De] Who leads most major school property projects and why?

 

2:59 [De] In terms of the delineation between the kinds of property projects managed by the Ministry and those that are led by schools, where does that line sit?

 

3:41 [De] How does the Ministry work with a school on those major projects?

 

4:34 [De] Tell me about the Ministry's responsibilities when it comes to property projects and design.

 

5:25 [Hugh] When it comes to thinking about what you might need in that planning of a property project, how do you go about anticipating the needs of your kura?

 

6:17 [Hugh/Linda] And what kinds of property projects have you been involved in?

 

9:54 [Hugh/Linda] Have you ever seen an initial design for something in the kura and

Episode Transcript

Eleisha (00:08):
Kia ora and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new tumuaki in Aotearoa NewZealand. I'm Eleisha McNeill.
Today we're talking about stateschool property projects. All
schools have to plan formaintenance and upgrades in
their 10 year plan, as well asplanning for new capital
projects. But who leads whichprojects, how are they planned
for and funded, and what's itlike to be involved in or

(00:31):
leading a property project?We'll also talk about health and
safety during a property project.You can find more information on
this topic and others in thee-learning modules, and there's
a link to those in the shownotes. Here are my guests.
So I'm De Thomson. My role isinfrastructure manager with the
Ministry of Education. I've beenwith the Ministry for just gone

(00:52):
nine years now. So certainly hadmy fair share of property
projects and the like tonavigate through.

Linda (00:58):
Kia ora, ko Linda Tame toku ingoa. I'm a recently
finished principal as aprincipal, after about 24 years
over three schools and have beeninvolved in lots of property
projects over the years for avariety of big capital projects
to post-earthquake renewal, etc..

Hugh (01:18):
Kia ora koutou, ko Hugh Gully aho. I'm currently the
principal of Collingwood AreaSchool for seven more weeks. I'm
wondering if it's a coincidencethat at the end of the rebuild
for Linda and I, we both retired,
so I'm sure it is a coincidence.Yeah, like Linda, 25 years
principalship with a number ofproperty projects. Kia ora.

Eleisha (01:39):
Thank you very much. So De, I'll start by asking you who
leads most major school propertyprojects and why?
So generally this would be theMinistry's Capital Works team,
but it does depend on manyfactors such as cost, complexity,
the capacity of local projectmanagers in the region, or maybe

(01:59):
even the level of burden on aschool. But generally the asset
management team, which includesyour property advisor, they'll
determine the need forinvestment at a school property
and in turn will commissionCapital Works to deliver that
project. Schools can alsorequest Capital Works
involvement and maybe that is,there could be concerns about

(02:20):
the performance of a projectmanager. But generally the major
projects for schools aredelivered by the Ministry's
Capital Works team.
So capital works? You're talking about the big
projects there rather than thelittle ones.
Yes, certainly.So those sort ofprojects mostly they would be
roll growth or large scaleredevelopment projects. Also,

(02:40):
our national programs,wecurrently have the coal boiler
replacement program on the go,or the Ngā Iti Kahurangi
program which is upgrades to oursmaller remote schools. So
they're the general programs orprojects that are run by our
in-house Ministry Capital Worksteam.
Okay, cool. So in terms of the delineation between the

(03:03):
kinds of - I mean, you'vetouched on it there - the kinds
of property projects managed bythe Ministry and those that are
led by schools, where does thatline sit?
It does come back a little bitto, as I said, complexity or
cost and and time to deliver. Sowe generally would say that if a
project was going to be roughlydouble the cost of your base

(03:23):
budget Capital Works would be onhand to deliver that project.
But we work with schools, right?So there's some schools that are
geared up to deliver largerprojects and some schools that
will happily say, you know, we'dlike to keep on with the
educational needs and, andCapital Works are welcome to
come and deliver this project.
Okay. So how does the Ministry work with a school on

(03:44):
those major projects?
So we work really closely withschools throughout the whole
project, making sure thatschools are involved and
supported each step of the way.This is through our delivery
team to make sure that theproject lines up with a school's
educational goals, making surethat we keep disruptions to a
minimum, especially duringconstruction but generally the

(04:05):
school input is absolute key costhe school is the one that uses
these spaces day to day. But insaying that in the past schools
have been heavily involved ineach step of design process,
which we know can be really timeconsuming. So times are changing
and we are moving to focusing onusing modern construction
methods like standardizeddesigns and offsite

(04:27):
manufacturing, which meansquicker builds and less
involvement needed from schools.
And in terms of the Ministry's responsibilities when
it comes to property projectsand design, can you tell me a
bit more about that?
Absolutely. So there is a lot tonavigate with property projects.
But ultimately the Ministry isresponsible for ensuring that

(04:48):
property projects meet therequired scope, that they comply
with Ministry standards andbuilding codes and are delivered
on time and within budget. Wework really closely with our
external project managers sothey are kept up to date on
Ministry design standards. Andfor Capital Works projects a

(05:08):
dedicated delivery manager isassigned to each project to
oversee and manage design andconstruction process, and that
delivery manager who works forthe Ministry is the main point
of contact for the schoolthroughout the project, from
planning through to completion.
So when it comes to thinking about what you might
need and that planning of aproperty project Hugh, how do

(05:30):
you go about anticipating theneeds of your kura?

Hugh (05:33):
As a tumuaki, you want to advocate for your kura around
the those cool things not theboring things that you can't see,
although they have to be done.So we appreciate that those
underground things or those heatlight and watery type of things
that you can't see are essentialand they're the highest priority
and things around health andsafety. But at the same time,
you want to be advocating tomaking sure our classrooms are

(05:56):
fit for purpose and and are niceand modern and have all those
access to facilities around, youknow, break out spaces,
connectivity, flexibility, allthose kind of things. So whilst
it can be a wee bit of a processaround compliance, as a tumuaki
you want to try and advocate asstrongly as you can to get all
those cool things as well.

Eleisha (06:16):
Yeah, for sure. And what kinds of property projects
have you been involved in?

Hugh (06:21):
Way back at Mapua School we're talking 20 years ago, we
were involved - was actually aCapital Works program - but in
those days we were allowed torebuild administration areas

Eleisha (06:29):
Mm hmm.

Hugh (06:30):
and so we were involved in that. Nelson Intermediate was
really interesting because it'sa big two storey wooden building
that's called a Nelson Block soit's got corridors and
staircases. And interestingly,just before the Christchurch
earthquake, we had to earthquakestrengthen it. Again it was
obviously a Ministry project,

Eleisha (06:45):
Mm hmm.

Hugh (06:46):
fascinating project where you have to bring these massive
steel beams into a two storeybuilding that was just fabulous.
And then obviously atCollingwood Area School we've
built a new school, so that'sbeen reasonably large.

Eleisha (07:00):
Reasonably large. How have you found the process?

Hugh (07:02):
Absolutely the most exciting and I mean we how do we
describe it Linda? Without doubtthe most exciting project ever
to be involved in. I mean, whatan honour to be part of a
project that builds a new school.It's incredible. Once in a
lifetime opportunity. I thinkLinda and I have learnt an
incredible amount but incrediblyrewarding the way things lined

(07:23):
up. But at the same time massivefrustrations, so much learning
that we're still going on today.But yeah just absolutely
wonderful and a huge honour tobe involved in it.

Eleisha (07:36):
That's so cool. Linda, you mentioned earthquakes as
well.

Linda (07:41):
Yeah, so we, we had not a lot of damage done at the school
that I was at Lincoln HighSchool at the time. And in fact,
more damage was done in theSeptember quake and then one of
the aftershocks than in the mainquake. But we were one of the
first schools to need to haveearthquake repairs done because
they needed to get the insuranceprocess started. So we didn't
have a rebuild out of it. Sothat was that was not a huge job.

(08:04):
We had also, I've been involvedin a a significant redevelopment
at Lincoln High School, lots of10YPP and then a really big
redevelopment at Golden Bay HighSchool as well.

Eleisha (08:16):
hmm.

Linda (08:16):
So and I mean, my philosophy has always been to be
incredibly personally involvedin building projects whether
I've been a principal of aschool of 300 or over 1600.

Eleisha (08:28):
Yeah.

Linda (08:28):
And the reason is you're the one on the spot 24 seven. I
really believe that either thetumuaki or someone else senior
who knows about teaching andlearning needs to take a real
interest if it's a significantproject. It's a bit different if
it's replacing the pipesunderground or whatever. But if
it's if it's touching teachingand learning spaces, that's my

(08:49):
advice and that really needs tobe thought through because it's
not an easy job to be involved.It adds a lot of time and it's
something to talk to the boardabout and think, you know, is it
best for the principal to beinvolved? Do you have a deputy
that could do it? Is theresomeone else? But when it's to
do with teaching and learning,you really want to be involved
because some of the little tinydecisions make the biggest

(09:11):
difference

Eleisha (09:12):
Mm

Linda (09:12):
to

Eleisha (09:12):
hmm.

Linda (09:12):
teaching and learning, and they can be missed quite
easily. So I think Hugh, youknow, you and I both had that
philosophy didn't we, which iswe neither of us were grey three
or four years ago. Now, actually,we're not that old either. We.

Hugh (09:28):
I'm only 25.
Linda, I absolutely agree withyou that principals need to own
it. Just get on with it. We haveto own it. We have to keep an
eye on things. Often you're,you're in the middle of all of
the, the massive numbers ofpeople that are involved. But I
think your advice around justown it, you've got to do it and

(09:48):
lead it, even if it's not quiteyour thing, you've just got to
roll the sleeves up and get onwith it.

Eleisha (09:53):
Yeah. And have you ever seen an initial design for
something in the kura and goneback and said, actually, this
isn't going to work as alearning environment or, you
know, have you ever had tointervene or make suggestions in
that way?

Hugh (10:05):
Well, in terms of the design phase, I've got nothing
but praise for the ministry andthe design team because we felt
the Ministry didn't come in withany agenda. We came out with
what we were wanted and werethinking and quite obviously
that aligned with what was thedirection that the Ministry
might have wanted to go to. Butwe were hugely impressed that we

(10:26):
were listened to a) by theMinistry, b) by the design team,

Eleisha (10:30):
That's awesome.

Hugh (10:31):
but then it came to the finer tuning of things and most
definitely we had to advocate,and argue a few bits and pieces
about placements of this ordoors or windows and those, that
kind of micromanagement. But forthe most part we got delivered
what we wanted. I'm so happyabout that

Eleisha (10:48):
That's awesome. What about you,Linda

Linda (10:49):
Yeah look, I would agree. I mean, obviously it's changing
a bit with the with the, youknow, the current trend, with
the way that the design is goingto go, there won't be quite as
much freedom. I think the keything was that Hugh and I were
there when the consultants werechosen. We were allowed to be
part of that process for our bigprojects, that won't be the case
for all people. But I think thebig thing is to understand the

(11:13):
scope of the project because theMinistry is our friend but the
Crown owns the property

Eleisha (11:18):
Mm

Linda (11:19):
and the Crown has responsibility and the Crown
only has so much money in theirscope. And so just because you
want a wall to be two metresthick, if the rules say the wall
only has to be one metre thick,the Ministry can't spend the
money to make it two metresthick so understanding in
general terms what the scope ofthe project is when you get into
it is a really big thing and youknow that's the same whether

(11:42):
it's a capital works project orwhether it's a 10YPP project
because that's a really bigthing. And the second thing I'd
say about that is to be quitestrict with your staff and your
board. You can't keep makingchanges, you know, if you've
ever done any building at home,once you start, if you make
changes, it's really, reallyexpensive because you always

(12:02):
have additional costs you know,and overheads that are put on
things. And so being reallystrict and saying right unless
there's something that's reallywrong, we have to stick with it.

Eleisha (12:11):
Yeah. Those contract variations can be costly, huh?

Linda (12:14):
Yeah look, And there will be changes that have to happen.
But you can't be saying, oh, no,we want to do it this way now
now we've thought about that.And so that kind of
understanding the scope, andthen actually being really clear
right we're going to stick withthis plan, that's it. You know,
because otherwise it just getsgets too difficult to handle.

Hugh (12:33):
I think understanding the scope, Linda, is incredibly
important when we're dealingwith our staff sometimes and the
board and I countless times Isaid, this is not your house,

Eleisha (12:42):
hmm.

Hugh (12:43):
you're not paying for it. In five years time you'll be
gone. And so understandingactually the Ministry own it,
you know, we're just a shortterm tenant in some ways. And I
had to come out with that littlekōrero several times where
people are wanting so manythings that were outside of the
scope

Eleisha (12:59):
Yeah,

Hugh (13:00):
and they wanted this and they wanted that. And

Eleisha (13:02):
Definitely. De, would you agree with all that amazing
advice?
Yeah, I think everything thatHugh and Linda have said is
pretty much spot on and Icouldn't agree more that schools
are the users of the space. Soany projects on large scale like
roll growth or refurbishment orrebuild absolutely needs to have
the school at the centre of ofthe design and the planning and

(13:25):
I think you're quite right. Soall those conversations that
happen at the beginning of theproject are when you want to
lock in any of those intricacies,or areas where a school might
say, you know what youstandardly would design may not
work for us educationally and wetroubleshoot them then. Linda
has touched on design changeslater on in the piece, which

(13:47):
which does take away from theability to use that funding on
the construction part becausethat you're right, they are
costly to change at later stagesof the project. So I would
absolutely agree that for anyproject, whether it be a 5YA or
a new build, have thoseconversations at the beginning,
set the expectations, make sureeveryone's on the same page and

(14:11):
and get that project brief,really clear so the Ministry and
the school both know what theoutcome is and what we're here
for. What is it we're trying todeliver rather than have that
growing during design andgetting too big for the budget.

Linda (14:26):
One thing I would say that I've experienced is that,
you know, sometimes especiallyin a really big project,
something that that might be anissue suddenly become aware that
it's an issue. And we had asituation in recent project
where we had a a significanthealth and safety issue that had
always been there, but it justnone of us kind of realised it,

Eleisha (14:47):
What What was it?

Linda (14:48):
It was it was actually that the chem store actually had
steps leading down to it and thereason it was a risk. was
because it was meaning thatconcentrated acids etc.have to
be walked up steps and can't beon a trolley and you're meant to
have everything on a flatsurface

Eleisha (15:04):
hmm.

Linda (15:05):
Chem store wasn't in scope for any of the changes,
but we began to realise that thesteps leading down to it were an
issue.So my approach was toactually ask for a meeting with
the Capital Works project personand just say look, I'm really
worried about this because thisis probably the biggest health
and safety thing, worked throughit with them. The team agreed,

(15:26):
and so we had to reprioritizethings. So, you know, if
something does come up and youthink, oh my goodness, we've all
missed this somehow in theprocess, don't do it at a big
meeting where there's all theconsultants present, have those
conversations offline with theproperty manager and then he or
she can go away and actuallywork out what their thoughts are,

(15:46):
get the Ministry's position onit, and then you can come back
and do it. And, you know, it didcost us and it did mean other
things couldn't be done. But inthe end, everybody was pleased
that we were able to deal withthat health and safety risk.

Eleisha (15:59):
Definitely. And that leads nicely to talking about
health and safety. So there'sobviously big health and safety
responsibilities that are sharedby a whole lot of parties,
everyone on site. And you know,Hugh, you were talking about
having a lot of different peopleon site. So starting with you,
De, can you tell me about theresponsibilities for health and
safety around any propertyprojects in a school? Just in

(16:23):
general terms.
Yeah, absolutely. And I thinkthe biggest tagline there is
that health and safety iseveryone's responsibility. And
you are right in saying that aproject will have a number of
consultants or contractors,staff and Ministry reps on site
at any given time. So it'simportant that everyone

(16:44):
recognises their part to play inhealth and safety. As a school,
being the PCBU, schools do needto coordinate their activities
with the other PCBUs on sitethat share those health and
safety duties and that's theMinistry contractors and
consultants. But one thing Iwould highly recommend to
schools is that health andsafety is a top agenda item for

(17:07):
all project meetings, pre startmeetings, so roles and
responsibilities are welldefined. Ensure that health and
safety is reported on. keeptalking about it at your project
Control Group meetings. Butgenerally your school appointed
project manager or your capitalworks delivery manager, they're
going to help schools with thoseresponsibilities in managing day

(17:29):
to day health and safety hazardsduring a project, as well as
make sure that thoseconversations are had throughout
the project. There certainly arerules and regulations that
everyone needs to meet. Butagain, I'll just hit home that
it's everyone's responsibilityto ensure that health and safety
hazards and regulations arebeing met.
Right. Linda and Hugh, what's been your experience?

Hugh (17:52):
Am look, you can have you can have a million plans
everyone agrees to, and all theprocesses in place But at the
end of the day, Linda and I arealways staring out our office
doors going crikey is that truckcoming in without someone
walking with it, etcetera,etcetera, etcetera. So it's the
day to day management andimplementation of those plans. I
know I had to have a constantlookout and I still do. We were,

(18:13):
we have an incomplete projecthere. Different subcontractors
sometimes aren't aware of theplans and we're forever looking
out that window. What's going on,who's around. that. It became a
big burden

Eleisha (18:25):
Mm

Hugh (18:26):
for me personally, particularly around the the
diggers and the contractorsdriving on and off of site.

Linda (18:32):
Something I'd like to add it's really important to have
the telephone number of theleading hand or the foreperson
or whatever of the project sothat you can phone them, you
know, at short notice. I mean, Iwould phone our site manager,
you know, sometimes eight or tentimes a day and he would phone

(18:52):
me and and that's on a ofvariety of projects and be
really clear about whether youare the contact or whether your
caretaker is the contact or whothe contact person is. And I,
I've always maintained that theyshould be one contact person

Eleisha (19:08):
Mm

Linda (19:09):
because

Eleisha (19:09):
hmm.

Linda (19:09):
it's really, you know, health and safety gets mucky if
they're not sure whether tocontact you or the caretaker or
whatever. having a telephonenumber and being really clear
that

Eleisha (19:18):
Mm

Linda (19:18):
it's okay for them to call you and what to do if they
call you and you don't answer sothat you have a backup process
is really important. And thesecond thing is like with all
health and safety, to trust yourgut. We're not property experts,
we're not engineers, we're notbuilders, we don't understand
95% of what they're talkingabout. We are the people that

(19:39):
care about our ākonga, ourrangatahi. If if you have a
sense that there is an issue,raise it. This is one thing
where you must never keep quiet

Eleisha (19:50):
hmm.

Linda (19:50):
because if something happens and you think, gosh, I
thought that, but I didn't sayanything, you'll never forgive
yourself, you know? So no matterhow inexperienced we are, our
eyes in health and safety arevaluable.

Eleisha (20:04):
Yeah. What about hazards and things like that?
You know, you've talked aboutchemicals there Linda, but, you
know, asbestos in buildings, allof those kinds of things. I'm
imagining De there's quite aspecific process around things
like that. And the tumuakiwouldn't have to handle that.
Yeah, absolutely. And I thinkthrough any project that is in

(20:25):
its initiation stage, that'swhen those elements should be
considered. And fair to say thata very high percentage of school
properties, just given their agewill contain asbestos.
Mm
And that shouldn't be the alarmbell because it's quite commonly
known that asbestos was abuilding product of the day. But
it's I guess it's that knowledgeand understanding of of what

(20:46):
does it mean when you encounterasbestos in a property project?
We all know that whileencapsulated it's at safe and
there's no immediate urgency toto address it or it's not going
to be harming any occupants. Buthaving those conversations at
the very beginning aroundsuspected asbestos or known
asbestos and documenting thatthrough your management plan and

(21:10):
understanding what it means andwhen is best to address and
remove asbestos is important aswell. We have in-house experts
for health and safety, asbestosmanagement, site hazards, but
learn it when you need to learnit and and rely and lean on the
Ministry and those experts tosee you through those processes.
Definitely.

Linda (21:30):
Something I'd like to add there is communication and I
think that asbestos is a wordthat scares a lot of people. And
so thinking about how you'regoing to communicate with your
staff and with your community isreally important and having
having a process that thecommunity and the staff are
aware of so that you canactually reassure them and you

(21:52):
can talk to them about thosethings. It's really important
because if the first yearcommunity know about asbestos is
when there's a leaflet dropabout something they can get
very, very upset. Or when thestaff see people in suits with
asbestos tape up and around sothat that would be the other
thing in the project that'sreally a key job of the tumuaki

(22:15):
is to think about the processfor communicating with staff and
communicating with with yourcommunity.

Eleisha (22:23):
Definitely. So what lessons have you learned through
your involvement with schoolproperty projects? This could
take a while. I feel.
how.

Hugh (22:32):
Long you got to get
the greatest lesson. I think Ilearned this. You know what you
don't know, and I think ifthere's any criticism or
improvement I could find fromthe Ministry, it would be around
them being a bit more explicitaround what does the money pay
for. Linda mentioned earlier thescope of works, I don't think we
had a clear understanding of ofwhat we had to pay for and what

(22:55):
pools of money had to pay forvarious things. The biggest
issue was around furniture andequipment. And I, I struggled
all the way through the projecttrying to get accurate
information from the projectmanager, from the from the
architects as to exactly what amI meant to be paying for. And I
know that I spent my furnitureand equipment money on furniture.
And Linda pointed out to me Ineeded to be buying equipment as

(23:16):
well. Now that involved tens ofthousands of dollars worth of
toilet roll holders and allthese other add ons. All the
whiteware I hadn't budgeted forthat. Luckily we had we were in
a good financial position wherewe could go and buy it, but
basically I blew out a budget ofquite a lot of money because I I
don't think we were fully awareof what we had to pay for and it

(23:39):
come out of what particular fund.The second thing I think I don't
believe I realised how timeconsuming it would be. It almost
became a full time job. And forme that's actually ongoing and
so I think that advice for newtumuaki is if you are doing a
big project, it is exceptionallytime consuming, you're forever
on site, at the end of it, I hada hard hat, I had boots and I

(24:01):
had an orange vest in my officebasically

Eleisha (24:03):
Yeah.

Hugh (24:03):
because a number of times you got to put the bloody hard
hat on put your boots on and goon site, it's phenomenal. I
guess the third thing, and Lindaagain alluded to it, for God's
sake, keep all communicationopen and going and try and be
nice to everybody and buildrelationships with everybody

Eleisha (24:19):
Mm hmm.

Hugh (24:19):
At times that is exceptionally difficult. But I
see no future in blowing up atpeople and being too grumpy with
people. So

Eleisha (24:27):
Definitely.

Hugh (24:28):
yeah, that's my lecture.

Eleisha (24:31):
De is there an easy way for a tumuaki to see a breakdown
of what the school is paying forand what the Ministry is paying
for? Is there anything like that?
That really is probablyproject-specific.
Mm hmm.
So I would hit home Hugh's pointthere on communication. I think
those start up meetings orinitiation meetings for projects

(24:52):
are absolutely vital.
Mm hmm.
We know that the funding thatrefurbishes or rebuilds schools
is capital funding and there arerules around what that can be
spent on.
hmm.
Something I say to schools oftenand more so probably for the 5YA
projects and we talk about whatyou can and can't fund with your

(25:12):
5YA is if you're going to pickup your building and shake it,
and if something falls out,that's your furniture and
equipment funding that's goingto pay for those things. If it's
fixed to the building and it'spart of their capital structure
of the building, that's yourcapital funding. But I
absolutely acknowledge thatthere are times during projects
where potentially that hasn'tbeen clear.

(25:34):
Mm hmm.
So I think it's just that's partand parcel of just that reminder
to raise those questions. Noquestion's a silly question. And
and whether it be a 5YA projector you're working direct with a
Capital Works delivery manager,come via your regional office
also. So if you're finding youaren't getting a clear answer

(25:55):
because the project is so init's realms of construction, do
talk to your property advisor.We are the conduit that will
will find information for youalso and find clarity. But
absolutely, communication is keyfor all these projects.
Definitely. Linda, What lessons have you learned?

Linda (26:12):
Yeah look, I think relationships are really
important. Your relationshipseven with the contractors are
really, really important and yepgo out and buy steel cap boots
that's

Eleisha (26:24):
Yeah.

Linda (26:24):
essential. Um understand the scope and keep re-going over
the scope because if it's a bigproject, you can't necessarily
understand the scope fully,initially. I think talk to your
board if it's a really bigproject, ensure that there's
some sort of back up time. Theboard needs to invest in
something because there's onlyso many hours that you

Eleisha (26:45):
hmm.

Linda (26:45):
can work and either you don't do your other work or you
fall over or they put a backupin place. Dampen expectations,
and trust your gut. You know, Ithink more often than not, even
though I'm not an expert, I wishI'd actually followed my gut
early on and not sat around andbeen convinced by a lot of other
people that I was

Eleisha (27:06):
Mm hmm.

Linda (27:06):
wrong

Eleisha (27:07):
So if you were to be giving some advice to a new
tumuaki coming in to a schoolwhere perhaps they're in the
middle of a property project, orthey are due to start one, what
would your advice to them beabout getting their head around
what's happening or is going tohappen?

Hugh (27:26):
Well De kind of alluded to it. It's about asking the right
questions at the beginning andin hindsight, I didn't ask the
right questions at the beginningaround being explicit around

Eleisha (27:35):
Mm

Hugh (27:35):
who's

Eleisha (27:35):
hmm

Hugh (27:35):
paying for what. And so I didn't know to ask that question
at the beginning. Maybe that wasnaive, but that would be my
strong advice to a new tumuakiis is work out in the beginning
who is paying for what. Andagain, it's a kind of around the
scope of works.

Eleisha (27:51):
Linda?

Linda (27:52):
I think the first thing to do is to meet and form a
relationship with that propertymanager and then to understand
what the project is, because itmay be that it's a school run
project, in which case it's theproject manager that you're
going to need to get to know andinsisting that they give you
some time. When I arrived atGolden Bay High School, they'd
just started a project and theproject manager said, well, I

(28:15):
don't have meetings booked in,so I can't meet with you. I can
only attend one in threemeetings, blah, blah,blah , blah,
blah. And the thing was a real

Eleisha (28:23):
Mm

Linda (28:23):
mess.

Eleisha (28:23):
hmm.

Linda (28:23):
And in the end, I went to the to the local Ministry office
and they they helped out and weturned things around, but insist
that you have that opportunityto find out what's going on. And
you do need to work out what'sinvolved in the project and what
isn't involved in the projectand the bit of the history.

Eleisha (28:40):
Mm hmm.

Linda (28:41):
So you probably do need to put some time into trying to
understand the documents andunderstand the thinking of the
people that planned it. Andthat's pretty hard when you come
in. I found I found hard to comein partway through a project

Eleisha (28:53):
Yeah.

Linda (28:54):
because you just don't you don't know what you don't
know and you keep havingsurprises.

Eleisha (28:59):
Yeah. What about you, De? What would your advice be?
Yeah, I think that all of ourthemes are rather similar, but I
would say is the beginning ofany property project that start
up meeting, have the rightpeople in the room so that
expectations are set from thebeginning. Everyone understands
their roles and responsibilities.Linda talked about school-led

(29:21):
projects where schools appointtheir external project managers.
One thing I say to propertyadvisors all the time is ensure
schools know they can set thoseexpectations. So if if the
contractor is saying or aproject manager is saying, I've
only priced to meet with youonce, that could be ticked off
at the very beginning to say, Ineed regular updates. We will be

(29:44):
having monthly meetings
Mm hmm
and written reports on theproject. It just means that
everyone at the very beginningknows what your role was and you
know, how the project will flow.But additional to that, engage
with your property advisor orthe regional property team. Get
the property advisor along tothe school or have a Teams or a
Zoom with them and have thoseconversations early. It's just

(30:07):
about communication.
Cool. And is there anything you wanted to add that
we haven't covered
I would probably remind and sayfor any new school leadership or
anyone coming into a project,we're here to help. The Ministry
is absolutely here for anythingyou need. No questions's a silly
question. And we would rathertake a phone call or respond to

(30:30):
an email, than leave youscrolling through websites
looking for the information.Don't be wrong, Our website is a
fantastic resource, but yourregional property team is an
even better one.
Hugh

Hugh (30:43):
I think just enjoy it. That's particularly what Linda
and I have been through just aonce in a lifetime opportunity.
But even if they're smallerprojects in your own kura, well,
just enjoy them and get stuck in,roll the sleeves up and just
work with the people around you,but just enjoy it.

Eleisha (31:00):
Linda.

Linda (31:01):
Don't panic. As a new tumuaki, you will be fine. Focus
on what you can do, which isform that relationship and then
learn as you need to along theway. Ask advice, from your
colleagues, ask advice from fromthe Ministry and and people are
there to help you with this.

Eleisha (31:20):
Hundred percent. It's been really fascinating speaking
to the three of you. Thank youso much for your time. It's much
appreciated.
Thank you so much.
Thanks. In the next episode, we're going to start
talking about school finances.Mā te wā.