May 26, 2025 • 24 mins
In this episode, Mārama Stewart discusses leading a school within te ao Māori through the lens of our guests’ own journeys through the education system in Aotearoa.
Mārama’s guests are: ● Robin Fabish, former tumuaki and current Leadership Advisor for the Ministry of Education ● Tom Paekau, tumuaki of Te Kura o Tūtarawānanga Merivale School in Tauranga Moana.
This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education as part of Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals.
You can learn more by accessing Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals e-learning modules on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz
Show notes Episode themes: Ko te kai a te rangatira, he kōrero. Ko te tohu o te rangatira, he manaaki. Ko te mahi a te rangatira, he whakatira i te iwi. ● Duality of having to thrive in two different worlds as tumuaki Maōri. ● Importance of all tamariki having adults – kaiako and tumuaki - they can connect with and be inspired by to help them along in their educational journey. ● Importance of making Māori ākonga feel connected to school, and what you can do to help that connection. ● Understanding who to build relationships with as a new tumuaki, and the need for those relationships to be reciprocal.
Additional information Dr Ann Milne https://www.annmilne.co.nz
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mārama (00:07):
Tēnā koutou katoa and welcome to The Principals, a
podcast series for new tumuakiin Aotearoa New Zealand. My name
is Marama Stewart, and in thenext few episodes I'll be
speaking with tumuaki Māoriabout the unique journeys we
take as Māori principals. AsMāori educational leaders
tumuaki can become change agents.We can challenge existing power
(00:29):
structures, bring communitiestogether and be strong advocates
for Māori students in ourschools and indeed across
communities and generations.Choosing to lead your school in
a way that honours Te Tiriti,tikanga, te reo, and mātauranga
Māori throughout day to dayoperations can be challenging,
especially within the Englishmedium system. And this episode
(00:51):
we're talking about leading aschool within te ao Māori
through the lens of our ownjourneys through the education
system in Aotearoa We'll alsokōrero about what leading
within te ao Māori can looklike and how everyone can make
their kura a welcoming space forMāori ākonga Just a reminder
you can find more about thistopic and others and the
(01:12):
e-learning modules, and there'sa link to those in our show
notes.
Mōrena kōrua, shall we startwith some introductions. Would
you like to go first Tom?
Tom (01:25):
Kia ora tatou, ko Tom Paekau tokū ingoa, ko au te
tumuaki o Te Kura o TutaraWānanga ki Tauranga Moana. Kia
ora everybody Tom Paekau,principal of Merivale School in
Tauranga Moana. This is my 18thyear in principalship,
originally from the King CountryOtorohanga but have been living
(01:47):
in Tauranga Moana for the past
25 years. Ngā mihi.
Mārama (01:54):
Thank you and Robin
Robin (01:57):
Ah well kia ora e te whānau, koutou e whakarangona
ana, ngā mihi kia koutou. NoNgāti Maniapoto ahau. No Ngāti
Mahanga hoki ahau. Nō reiratēnei te reo au Tainui e mihi
ana kia koutou. So, like Tom,I've got connections in the King
Country, Te Kuiti and alsoNgāti Mahanga, which is kind of
(02:19):
on the way to to Raglan,Whāingaroa. So Tainui
connections. And I'm a formerprincipal from Tamatea High
School in Hawke's Bay, and I'mworking as a leadership advisor,
helping principals in any way Ican at the moment. My name is
Robin, Robin Fabish.
Mārama (02:36):
Thank you, Robin. So it's a real pleasure to meet
with both of you today. I got toknow both of you through my
position as a leadership advisoradvising Māori tumuaki in
mainstream schools. So it'sgreat to be able to kōrero with
you both about these topics thatI'm sure all of us go through in
(02:58):
our principals lives. And Ithink we'll start off before we
get into the nitty gritty, andcan you both tell me what does
te ao Māori mean for you, andmaybe as you as a principal. Tom,
would you like to go first?
Tom (03:12):
To me te ao Māori is a vivid tapestry, I suppose, of
culture and tradition woventogether by the stories, people,
beliefs. beliefs. Yeah, and it'ssort of the Māori world view
emphasizes the importance ofrelationships between people,
(03:37):
nature and the spiritual realm.I guess so, yeah. That's what te
ao Māori means to me.
Mārama (03:43):
Thank you. Robin, have you anything to add?
Robin (03:46):
Yeah. Yeah. But I just want to circle back. First of
all, you talked about, you know,Māori in mainstream schools,
and I just want to highlightthat that mainstream word, I
know it gets used a lot, but Ialso know that there are a
number of people who kind ofpush back on that because it
implies that schooling thathappens in that medium is the
(04:08):
main kind of schooling, as inthe most important kind of
schooling. A that's not reallyconsistent with, I suppose, when
we're thinking about Te Tiriti oWaitangi and, you know,
honouring Mātauranga Māori andhaving parity, that we would say
actually it's a stream, just asMāori medium is a stream in the
(04:29):
river of knowledge. So not thatI'm being growly, but I just
want to acknowledge that therewill be some people who, you
know, will prick their ears upwhen they hear that word
mainstream and there are otherswho may not even be aware that
that's something important forus to be cognisant of that, that,
you know, there's a little bitthat goes with that particular
(04:50):
word.
Mārama (04:51):
Well, language matters, doesn't it?
Robin (04:53):
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Mārama (04:54):
And I guess that's why there's much more of that
awareness when we talk aboutourselves within English medium
and Māori medium and KaupapaMāori perhaps.
Robin (05:03):
Kia ora, kia ora. And so, you know, the kaupapa of this is
leading, with a te ao Māorilens. And, you know, I think
it's really important that wehave some clarity around what
does te ao Māori mean, becausewhether I'm Māori or non-Māori,
I I'm trying to lead with a teao Māori lens, it's really
(05:24):
important for me to understand.And you know Tom shared some,
some some awesome whakaaro and Iagree with what he said. And I
guess for me it kind of bringsme back to my own journey of,
you know, I went toEnglish-medium schools in the
seventies and eighties, aCatholic boys' boarding school
(05:47):
where I pretty much had to leavemy culture at the gate. There
was nothing Māori about myeducation. And so I didn't grow
up strongly in a tikanga Māorienvironment because my mother
had been colonised and believedthat, you know, the way forward
(06:07):
was to be strong in te aoPākehā or the wider world and
so sacrificed our own, te aoMāori way of being to a large
extent. And so my journey sincethat time, I guess as a teenager
and as a young adult and thenmoving into my middle years has
(06:29):
been learning more, learning myown language, learning more
about my whakapapa, learningwhat it means to my family to be
Māori, and that's based on ourstories and how we do things and
and who we are, our whakapapa.You know, I just saying to, to,
(06:49):
to Tom that we have connectionsto the King country and that our
family went to Parihaka inTaranaki at the time when Tohu
and Te Whiti were there. So youknow that's part of my te ao
Māori, and so whether I'mstrong in that as a Māori
person or not, or a non-Māoriperson, it's really important to
(07:11):
factor in your journey tounderstand what te ao Māori
means. And I think there areuniversals, you know, that
people would agree with, butthere's so many nuances that are
based on different iwi,different hapu, different
whānau in terms of this is whatte ao Māori looks like for us.
(07:32):
And so there's a real challengefor a tumuaki to be on a journey
to deepen their understanding ofthat so that they can look at
how they're running their schoolfrom a te ao Māori lens,
because that will allow us to dothe best job we can for all of
our ākonga, our Māori and ournon-Māori ākonga and you know,
(07:55):
I come back to Mason Durie'skōrero about the goal of
education should be that whenour students leave, particularly
our Māori students they arestrong in te ao Māori, they
know who they are, have theirlanguage, they're strong in the
wider world so they can doalgebra, explain hydrocarbons,
(08:16):
quote Shakespeare, as well asunderstand how to be healthy and
prosperous. So you know, a lotof our whānau want it all, we
have really high expectationsand big dreams for our kids. And
if I'm to do a good job as atumuaki, I need to understand
well, what does that actuallymean, te ao Māori, and look at
(08:36):
learning more about that,wherever we are on that journey
Mārama (08:40):
There's quite a duality there, isn't there? You've got
to to thrive in two different,very different worlds. And I
hear there's a very strong themeof connection here, and I think
of the whakataukī ko te kai ate Rangatira? He kōrero. Ko te
tohu o te Rangatira? He manaaki.Ko te mahi a te Rangatira? He
(09:01):
whakatira e te iwi. You know,we're bringing all those
connections together to tosupport and our tauira through
that duality that that we'velived through because I'm fairly
sure, Tom, you would haveexperienced that as a student
yourself, you know, leaving yourculture at the door.
Tom (09:22):
Yeah, that was basically why why I got into education in
the first place was I feltunderserved and the system in
secondary school. So I went topublic school, high school in
Otorohanga. And I remembervividly going home to my Mum and
saying to her, you know and notin these words, but pretty much
(09:45):
I want to be a teacher so I'mnot like those guys. And I think
the biggest thing is why I gotto education was so that those
coming through Māori andnon-Māori had somebody that
hopefully they could connectwith. And I think that's the
biggest thing for schooling, isthat if we're going to have
success, you need an adult, youneed somebody in the room that
(10:08):
you can connect with to help youalong your educational journey,
because we've all got teachers,we've all got principals, we've
all got adults that we connectedwith while we were at school.
And those are the definitivemoments of whether we pursued
our educational aspirationsfurther. But I also think there
(10:32):
were there are those thatimpacted negatively on us and
hence why we do have that hugewithdrawal of lots of ākonga,
and not just Māori butnon-Māori as well from the
schooling system because thereare those within our profession
unfortunately who have that havecaused trauma, who have caused,
(10:57):
know, heartbreak along along alearner's journey. So yes, I was
adamant that I didn't want to bethat, that guy.
Mārama (11:07):
Yeah, I hear you. Yeah,I felt the same when I was at
high school. They were like,what, what, aren't you just here
to play netball? I'm like, no,I've got a brain too. Yeah. And
I think I probably shared theexperience with you, I wanted to
go to a Teacher's College sothat my kids and my nephews and
nieces didn't feel what weobviously all felt going through
(11:29):
school in the nineties, and the80s, 70s? So practically what
does that look like in likeday-to-day school context. I
mean we're looking at really big,quite complex dualities and
understandings and concepts.What does that look like on the
day to day, do you think Robin?
Robin (11:51):
Yeah, pai te pātai, Mārama and I think it is really
important that we are able tolink theory to practice because
I know there'll be peoplelistening going, yeah, that's
great, I'm on board with that, Ihear you Tom, I want to do what
you're saying, but how do I dothat? And that's my sense with a
(12:12):
lot of my colleagues that theyhave a real heart for equity and
giving effect to Te Tiriti andaddressing the issues that many
of our Māori tauira face, butdon't necessarily know how to do
that. And so, you know, I canI'm happy to share some some
ideas, but not from it's not notlike a checklist, but, you know,
(12:34):
some of the things could be froma perspective of, you know, Ann
Milne's got some great stuff,Milne, on, on her website, which
is about auditing the whitespaces. So and she says look,
stand at the gate to your, toyour school, what do you see
when you're looking at theschool that says this is a kura
(12:55):
that welcomes Māori? You knowthat this isn't just a kura that
could be in Australia or the UKor America. What's welcoming
here? What's the signage? Whatare the, what's the iconography?
What does it look like that saysthat this is a place where
Māori is welcome. And she talksabout having a look at your
website, you know, have you gotbilingual things on your website?
(13:19):
Have you got Māori representedthere as well? And then, of
course, there's the curriculum.Have you got curriculum that
you've discussed the dreams andaspirations of hapū, mana
whenua and whānau for theirMāori kids about well, what do
you want us to achieve for youthat would mean success, and are
(13:42):
we attending to that in a on adaily basis in our curriculum
and the experiences that they'rehaving in the classrooms. Then
of course there's a formalsituation and assemblies. Are we
hearing te reo being spoken, isthere value placed on that? Some
schools start the day withkarakia and finish the day with
(14:04):
karakia. And it's looking at,well, what are the subjects on
offer? Hav we got, you know,physics and te reo Māori all on
the same time in the timetableso therefore those Māori
students who are pursuing anacademic path can't do, can't do
te reo, you know, thinking aboutthose kinds of things. And are
(14:24):
we looking at our datadifferentiated by ethnicity so
that yes, we might overall havea 80% pass rate, but hang on,
58% of our Māori are onlypassing their Level 2 NCEA.
Let's dig in to that and attendto it. So I mean, that's just a
handful of things that can bedone. But you know, it might
(14:45):
include also on the board oftrustees, who are the people
making decisions? Have we gotmana whenua at that table? Have
we got people who are bringing aMāori lens to the strategic
focus we're we're placing forthe school and in our leadership
team where's the Māori voice inthe leadership team? Well, what
(15:07):
does the staff look like? I hada goal at our kura to have our
staffing percentages representthe percentages of the school.
We had 55% Māori population inthe school, so I wanted that for
our teaching population as well.And so over a course of three or
four years that was somethingthat, you know, I was conscious
(15:30):
of really driving and we wereable to achieve that. So
Mārama (15:32):
That's so important eh, cos that's what Ka Hikitia says,
they need to see Māori faces infront of them, Māori role
models in good spaces because Isee so many negative
connotations. Tom you've come inafter I guess a Pākehā
principal in perhaps quite aEnglish-medium school and I see
you've got your beautiful rumakiunit now don't you? Was it quite
(15:55):
a big journey and it's grownover the years
Tom (15:58):
Um just to just to clarify, the rumaki space was already up
and running before I got there,so they'd met criteria for that.
There was a strong tikangawithin the kura, the ties
between hapū and iwi were there,but just not strengthened. So
(16:22):
that's something that we reallyworked on. One of the majors was
actually building a curriculumthat, a localised curriculum
that took into account theaspirations of mana whenua,
hapū and iwi, and we're stillon that journey. You know, it's
been seven years since westarted that, and we're really
(16:43):
seeing the fruits of our labournow. Um we were involved in a
sort of western Bay of Plentyinitiative with an overall iwi
lens from right up from Katikatithrough to Te Puke and down
towards Otamarakau on the coast,and then pushing back west
(17:07):
towards the Kaimais and Ōropiand Pye's Pa schools. So there
was real co-construction, alongwith hapu and iwi to have that
within our school. The journeythat we began to realise within
our new rumaki was just theactual collation of data. We
(17:32):
needed to be more specific andactually ensure that it led
practice, both teaching andlearning within the within the
unit itself. So we feel we'vewe've come along in huge strides
with that. Across the kura interms of ensuring that te ao
(17:54):
Māori was evident, I mean, theschool is predominantly Māori.
We've got about between 65 and70% Māori within our school. So
it was, it was fairly easy toimplement the wants and needs of
what our hapū and iwi were wereseeking. However we do have a
(18:19):
lot of transitional students. SoI mean take into account those
students whose hapū and iwi arenot necessarily in Tauranga
Moana is important, well and Ithink Robyn mentioned that too.
So making sure that all ourlearners, particularly our
Māori learners, their whakapapais taken into account as well as,
(18:44):
you know, while we're in NgātiRanginui space, we're also
operating under the, the bannerof their, their kaupapa as well.
Mārama (18:56):
That's wonderful. And just because of our target
audience, and there may be notjust Māori tumuaki listening to
this, you you've used hapū andiwi together all the time. Can
you explain the difference forsome of our lenders who,
listeners who may not know whatis the difference. Are they not
the same?
Tom (19:17):
So working with now with our hapū Ngāi Tamarāwaho
and then the iwi itself isNgāti Ranginui, however there
are pockets of other iwi thatcome in in as well, because
Tauranga Moana predominately hasthree iwi, four if you count our
(19:38):
whānau at the back of WelcomeBay there, which which a lot of
Māori do and I'm not one todisagree or agree with that,
it's just how things are there.Yeah there there is lots of ways
in which we connect, and andwith the iwi being so closely
(19:59):
linked to one another as well,like whanaunga to each other, um
there's lots of crossover so soin that particular space there
is need to listen to all sides.For example, on our Kāhui Ako
that we are part of the TaurangaPeninsula, we have both Ngāti
Ranginui and Ngāi Te Rangi andNgāti Pūkenga represented in
(20:24):
that space. So depending onwhere the school is located,
that's really important that ourtumuaki are aware of who who are
our hapu any inside those rooms
Mārama (20:36):
That's amazing. And Robyn, how would you suggest for
a new tumuaki coming in, like,what do you do? How do you make
as to find out who's who, who,who you you should be connecting
with?
Robin (20:49):
Yeah, that is a good question. And it's as a
leadership adviser, one of thethings that I'm actually working
on at the moment with buildingrelationships between our local
principals, tumuaki and and ourhapū. Where we are in Napier,
we're part of Ngāti Kahungunu,that's the that's the iwi, and
(21:09):
Ngāti Kahungunu goes from upMahia way all the way down
through the Wairarapa. So hugeiwi, and me thinking if I'm a
new principal, I'm going to ringup the iwi and get them to help
me with the stuff. I mean,they've got bigger fish to fry
than, than working with me atthe moment. And so I might be a
little bit disappointed if Ithink, you know, that
(21:31):
transactional kind of thing, I'mthe customer, I'm going to ring
you up and and I'm going toexpect this kind of service. I'm
likely to be disappointed. Andso what I know in Napier is that
there are seven marae, and Idon't know, there might be seven
or ten hapū linked to thosemarae. They're all related and
(21:54):
in some regards there's ataiwhenua that ties them
together, and there's also PSGsthat tie them together from
Treaty settlements
Mārama (22:05):
Can you just, so PSG is a?
Robin (22:07):
Post Settlement Government entity
Mārama (22:10):
Thank you
Robin (22:10):
So when you have a Treaty settlement, in order to get the
settlement, you have to set up aPSG as an entity to to run that.
And so there are those entitiesthat I've connected with. And,
you know, there's the differentmarae that I've been to and
connected with. And it'sprobably it's not a, you know,
(22:34):
two month job, it's probably aten year job. And it's about,
you know, when there arecelebrations or tangi or
wānanga that are being run, goalong and help out in the
kitchen or I go along and bethere, be a face and listen, not
(22:55):
stand up and be the the main mantalking, because that's not my
role, I'm there to buildrelationship. And then, you know,
I can start to identify who arethe people that are best for me
to talk to, who can help me inthe space, but also, where's the
reciprocity in that? So whenthere's a tangi on, look, if you
(23:16):
need to use our school hall tosleep people to help with
overflow from the tangi, you'reabsolutely welcome to use it.
We've got a kitchen at theschool if you need to use the
kitchen for some local event,hapū event, absolutely. We've
got a hāngī cooker, you canborrow that if you need to use
that. We've got our kids comingout to help clean up the marae
(23:37):
because we want to do that. Orwhen you're running a pōhiri,
we've got also a group of kidswho can come out and tautoko in
that space. So it's not just usthinking, how are we going to
get stuff from our hapū and ouriwi and our whānau, it's about
how do we give so that itactually helps the learning
experience of our tamariki aswell
Mārama (23:58):
It's great. Teatowel-tanga really you know,
that's the start place, isn't it?You're getting all those aunties
out the back and they'll tellyou, they run the place, don't
they
Also reciprocity that's soimportant. Don't go out with
your, your hand open, but howcan we help you and that's such
(24:19):
a strong way to start arelationship between between us,
between hapū, between schools.Yeah, I love that.
Robin (24:27):
Kia ora
Mārama (24:28):
Kia ora kōrua. Tom and Robin are going to stay with us
for the next episode, and we'regoing to talk more about the
challenges of leading a kurawithin te ao Māori and while
working within an English mediumframework. Mā te wā.
Tēnā koutou katoa and welcome to The Principals, a
podcast series for new tumuakiin Aotearoa New Zealand. My name
is Marama Stewart, and in thenext few episodes I'll be
speaking with tumuaki Māoriabout the unique journeys we
take as Māori principals. AsMāori educational leaders
tumuaki can become change agents.We can challenge existing power
(00:29):
structures, bring communitiestogether and be strong advocates
for Māori students in ourschools and indeed across
communities and generations.Choosing to lead your school in
a way that honours Te Tiriti,tikanga, te reo, and mātauranga
Māori throughout day to dayoperations can be challenging,
especially within the Englishmedium system. And this episode
(00:51):
we're talking about leading aschool within te ao Māori
through the lens of our ownjourneys through the education
system in Aotearoa We'll alsokōrero about what leading
within te ao Māori can looklike and how everyone can make
their kura a welcoming space forMāori ākonga Just a reminder
you can find more about thistopic and others and the
(01:12):
e-learning modules, and there'sa link to those in our show
notes.
Mōrena kōrua, shall we startwith some introductions. Would
you like to go first Tom?
Tom (01:25):
Kia ora tatou, ko Tom Paekau tokū ingoa, ko au te
tumuaki o Te Kura o TutaraWānanga ki Tauranga Moana. Kia
ora everybody Tom Paekau,principal of Merivale School in
Tauranga Moana. This is my 18thyear in principalship,
originally from the King CountryOtorohanga but have been living
(01:47):
in Tauranga Moana for the past
25 years. Ngā mihi.
Mārama (01:54):
Thank you and Robin
Robin (01:57):
Ah well kia ora e te whānau, koutou e whakarangona
ana, ngā mihi kia koutou. NoNgāti Maniapoto ahau. No Ngāti
Mahanga hoki ahau. Nō reiratēnei te reo au Tainui e mihi
ana kia koutou. So, like Tom,I've got connections in the King
Country, Te Kuiti and alsoNgāti Mahanga, which is kind of
(02:19):
on the way to to Raglan,Whāingaroa. So Tainui
connections. And I'm a formerprincipal from Tamatea High
School in Hawke's Bay, and I'mworking as a leadership advisor,
helping principals in any way Ican at the moment. My name is
Robin, Robin Fabish.
Mārama (02:36):
Thank you, Robin. So it's a real pleasure to meet
with both of you today. I got toknow both of you through my
position as a leadership advisoradvising Māori tumuaki in
mainstream schools. So it'sgreat to be able to kōrero with
you both about these topics thatI'm sure all of us go through in
(02:58):
our principals lives. And Ithink we'll start off before we
get into the nitty gritty, andcan you both tell me what does
te ao Māori mean for you, andmaybe as you as a principal. Tom,
would you like to go first?
Tom (03:12):
To me te ao Māori is a vivid tapestry, I suppose, of
culture and tradition woventogether by the stories, people,
beliefs. beliefs. Yeah, and it'ssort of the Māori world view
emphasizes the importance ofrelationships between people,
(03:37):
nature and the spiritual realm.I guess so, yeah. That's what te
ao Māori means to me.
Mārama (03:43):
Thank you. Robin, have you anything to add?
Robin (03:46):
Yeah. Yeah. But I just want to circle back. First of
all, you talked about, you know,Māori in mainstream schools,
and I just want to highlightthat that mainstream word, I
know it gets used a lot, but Ialso know that there are a
number of people who kind ofpush back on that because it
implies that schooling thathappens in that medium is the
(04:08):
main kind of schooling, as inthe most important kind of
schooling. A that's not reallyconsistent with, I suppose, when
we're thinking about Te Tiriti oWaitangi and, you know,
honouring Mātauranga Māori andhaving parity, that we would say
actually it's a stream, just asMāori medium is a stream in the
(04:29):
river of knowledge. So not thatI'm being growly, but I just
want to acknowledge that therewill be some people who, you
know, will prick their ears upwhen they hear that word
mainstream and there are otherswho may not even be aware that
that's something important forus to be cognisant of that, that,
you know, there's a little bitthat goes with that particular
(04:50):
word.
Mārama (04:51):
Well, language matters, doesn't it?
Robin (04:53):
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Mārama (04:54):
And I guess that's why there's much more of that
awareness when we talk aboutourselves within English medium
and Māori medium and KaupapaMāori perhaps.
Robin (05:03):
Kia ora, kia ora. And so, you know, the kaupapa of this is
leading, with a te ao Māorilens. And, you know, I think
it's really important that wehave some clarity around what
does te ao Māori mean, becausewhether I'm Māori or non-Māori,
I I'm trying to lead with a teao Māori lens, it's really
(05:24):
important for me to understand.And you know Tom shared some,
some some awesome whakaaro and Iagree with what he said. And I
guess for me it kind of bringsme back to my own journey of,
you know, I went toEnglish-medium schools in the
seventies and eighties, aCatholic boys' boarding school
(05:47):
where I pretty much had to leavemy culture at the gate. There
was nothing Māori about myeducation. And so I didn't grow
up strongly in a tikanga Māorienvironment because my mother
had been colonised and believedthat, you know, the way forward
(06:07):
was to be strong in te aoPākehā or the wider world and
so sacrificed our own, te aoMāori way of being to a large
extent. And so my journey sincethat time, I guess as a teenager
and as a young adult and thenmoving into my middle years has
(06:29):
been learning more, learning myown language, learning more
about my whakapapa, learningwhat it means to my family to be
Māori, and that's based on ourstories and how we do things and
and who we are, our whakapapa.You know, I just saying to, to,
(06:49):
to Tom that we have connectionsto the King country and that our
family went to Parihaka inTaranaki at the time when Tohu
and Te Whiti were there. So youknow that's part of my te ao
Māori, and so whether I'mstrong in that as a Māori
person or not, or a non-Māoriperson, it's really important to
(07:11):
factor in your journey tounderstand what te ao Māori
means. And I think there areuniversals, you know, that
people would agree with, butthere's so many nuances that are
based on different iwi,different hapu, different
whānau in terms of this is whatte ao Māori looks like for us.
(07:32):
And so there's a real challengefor a tumuaki to be on a journey
to deepen their understanding ofthat so that they can look at
how they're running their schoolfrom a te ao Māori lens,
because that will allow us to dothe best job we can for all of
our ākonga, our Māori and ournon-Māori ākonga and you know,
(07:55):
I come back to Mason Durie'skōrero about the goal of
education should be that whenour students leave, particularly
our Māori students they arestrong in te ao Māori, they
know who they are, have theirlanguage, they're strong in the
wider world so they can doalgebra, explain hydrocarbons,
(08:16):
quote Shakespeare, as well asunderstand how to be healthy and
prosperous. So you know, a lotof our whānau want it all, we
have really high expectationsand big dreams for our kids. And
if I'm to do a good job as atumuaki, I need to understand
well, what does that actuallymean, te ao Māori, and look at
(08:36):
learning more about that,wherever we are on that journey
Mārama (08:40):
There's quite a duality there, isn't there? You've got
to to thrive in two different,very different worlds. And I
hear there's a very strong themeof connection here, and I think
of the whakataukī ko te kai ate Rangatira? He kōrero. Ko te
tohu o te Rangatira? He manaaki.Ko te mahi a te Rangatira? He
(09:01):
whakatira e te iwi. You know,we're bringing all those
connections together to tosupport and our tauira through
that duality that that we'velived through because I'm fairly
sure, Tom, you would haveexperienced that as a student
yourself, you know, leaving yourculture at the door.
Tom (09:22):
Yeah, that was basically why why I got into education in
the first place was I feltunderserved and the system in
secondary school. So I went topublic school, high school in
Otorohanga. And I remembervividly going home to my Mum and
saying to her, you know and notin these words, but pretty much
(09:45):
I want to be a teacher so I'mnot like those guys. And I think
the biggest thing is why I gotto education was so that those
coming through Māori andnon-Māori had somebody that
hopefully they could connectwith. And I think that's the
biggest thing for schooling, isthat if we're going to have
success, you need an adult, youneed somebody in the room that
(10:08):
you can connect with to help youalong your educational journey,
because we've all got teachers,we've all got principals, we've
all got adults that we connectedwith while we were at school.
And those are the definitivemoments of whether we pursued
our educational aspirationsfurther. But I also think there
(10:32):
were there are those thatimpacted negatively on us and
hence why we do have that hugewithdrawal of lots of ākonga,
and not just Māori butnon-Māori as well from the
schooling system because thereare those within our profession
unfortunately who have that havecaused trauma, who have caused,
(10:57):
know, heartbreak along along alearner's journey. So yes, I was
adamant that I didn't want to bethat, that guy.
Mārama (11:07):
Yeah, I hear you. Yeah,I felt the same when I was at
high school. They were like,what, what, aren't you just here
to play netball? I'm like, no,I've got a brain too. Yeah. And
I think I probably shared theexperience with you, I wanted to
go to a Teacher's College sothat my kids and my nephews and
nieces didn't feel what weobviously all felt going through
(11:29):
school in the nineties, and the80s, 70s? So practically what
does that look like in likeday-to-day school context. I
mean we're looking at really big,quite complex dualities and
understandings and concepts.What does that look like on the
day to day, do you think Robin?
Robin (11:51):
Yeah, pai te pātai, Mārama and I think it is really
important that we are able tolink theory to practice because
I know there'll be peoplelistening going, yeah, that's
great, I'm on board with that, Ihear you Tom, I want to do what
you're saying, but how do I dothat? And that's my sense with a
(12:12):
lot of my colleagues that theyhave a real heart for equity and
giving effect to Te Tiriti andaddressing the issues that many
of our Māori tauira face, butdon't necessarily know how to do
that. And so, you know, I canI'm happy to share some some
ideas, but not from it's not notlike a checklist, but, you know,
(12:34):
some of the things could be froma perspective of, you know, Ann
Milne's got some great stuff,Milne, on, on her website, which
is about auditing the whitespaces. So and she says look,
stand at the gate to your, toyour school, what do you see
when you're looking at theschool that says this is a kura
(12:55):
that welcomes Māori? You knowthat this isn't just a kura that
could be in Australia or the UKor America. What's welcoming
here? What's the signage? Whatare the, what's the iconography?
What does it look like that saysthat this is a place where
Māori is welcome. And she talksabout having a look at your
website, you know, have you gotbilingual things on your website?
(13:19):
Have you got Māori representedthere as well? And then, of
course, there's the curriculum.Have you got curriculum that
you've discussed the dreams andaspirations of hapū, mana
whenua and whānau for theirMāori kids about well, what do
you want us to achieve for youthat would mean success, and are
(13:42):
we attending to that in a on adaily basis in our curriculum
and the experiences that they'rehaving in the classrooms. Then
of course there's a formalsituation and assemblies. Are we
hearing te reo being spoken, isthere value placed on that? Some
schools start the day withkarakia and finish the day with
(14:04):
karakia. And it's looking at,well, what are the subjects on
offer? Hav we got, you know,physics and te reo Māori all on
the same time in the timetableso therefore those Māori
students who are pursuing anacademic path can't do, can't do
te reo, you know, thinking aboutthose kinds of things. And are
(14:24):
we looking at our datadifferentiated by ethnicity so
that yes, we might overall havea 80% pass rate, but hang on,
58% of our Māori are onlypassing their Level 2 NCEA.
Let's dig in to that and attendto it. So I mean, that's just a
handful of things that can bedone. But you know, it might
(14:45):
include also on the board oftrustees, who are the people
making decisions? Have we gotmana whenua at that table? Have
we got people who are bringing aMāori lens to the strategic
focus we're we're placing forthe school and in our leadership
team where's the Māori voice inthe leadership team? Well, what
(15:07):
does the staff look like? I hada goal at our kura to have our
staffing percentages representthe percentages of the school.
We had 55% Māori population inthe school, so I wanted that for
our teaching population as well.And so over a course of three or
four years that was somethingthat, you know, I was conscious
(15:30):
of really driving and we wereable to achieve that. So
Mārama (15:32):
That's so important eh, cos that's what Ka Hikitia says,
they need to see Māori faces infront of them, Māori role
models in good spaces because Isee so many negative
connotations. Tom you've come inafter I guess a Pākehā
principal in perhaps quite aEnglish-medium school and I see
you've got your beautiful rumakiunit now don't you? Was it quite
(15:55):
a big journey and it's grownover the years
Tom (15:58):
Um just to just to clarify, the rumaki space was already up
and running before I got there,so they'd met criteria for that.
There was a strong tikangawithin the kura, the ties
between hapū and iwi were there,but just not strengthened. So
(16:22):
that's something that we reallyworked on. One of the majors was
actually building a curriculumthat, a localised curriculum
that took into account theaspirations of mana whenua,
hapū and iwi, and we're stillon that journey. You know, it's
been seven years since westarted that, and we're really
(16:43):
seeing the fruits of our labournow. Um we were involved in a
sort of western Bay of Plentyinitiative with an overall iwi
lens from right up from Katikatithrough to Te Puke and down
towards Otamarakau on the coast,and then pushing back west
(17:07):
towards the Kaimais and Ōropiand Pye's Pa schools. So there
was real co-construction, alongwith hapu and iwi to have that
within our school. The journeythat we began to realise within
our new rumaki was just theactual collation of data. We
(17:32):
needed to be more specific andactually ensure that it led
practice, both teaching andlearning within the within the
unit itself. So we feel we'vewe've come along in huge strides
with that. Across the kura interms of ensuring that te ao
(17:54):
Māori was evident, I mean, theschool is predominantly Māori.
We've got about between 65 and70% Māori within our school. So
it was, it was fairly easy toimplement the wants and needs of
what our hapū and iwi were wereseeking. However we do have a
(18:19):
lot of transitional students. SoI mean take into account those
students whose hapū and iwi arenot necessarily in Tauranga
Moana is important, well and Ithink Robyn mentioned that too.
So making sure that all ourlearners, particularly our
Māori learners, their whakapapais taken into account as well as,
(18:44):
you know, while we're in NgātiRanginui space, we're also
operating under the, the bannerof their, their kaupapa as well.
Mārama (18:56):
That's wonderful. And just because of our target
audience, and there may be notjust Māori tumuaki listening to
this, you you've used hapū andiwi together all the time. Can
you explain the difference forsome of our lenders who,
listeners who may not know whatis the difference. Are they not
the same?
Tom (19:17):
So working with now with our hapū Ngāi Tamarāwaho
and then the iwi itself isNgāti Ranginui, however there
are pockets of other iwi thatcome in in as well, because
Tauranga Moana predominately hasthree iwi, four if you count our
(19:38):
whānau at the back of WelcomeBay there, which which a lot of
Māori do and I'm not one todisagree or agree with that,
it's just how things are there.Yeah there there is lots of ways
in which we connect, and andwith the iwi being so closely
(19:59):
linked to one another as well,like whanaunga to each other, um
there's lots of crossover so soin that particular space there
is need to listen to all sides.For example, on our Kāhui Ako
that we are part of the TaurangaPeninsula, we have both Ngāti
Ranginui and Ngāi Te Rangi andNgāti Pūkenga represented in
(20:24):
that space. So depending onwhere the school is located,
that's really important that ourtumuaki are aware of who who are
our hapu any inside those rooms
Mārama (20:36):
That's amazing. And Robyn, how would you suggest for
a new tumuaki coming in, like,what do you do? How do you make
as to find out who's who, who,who you you should be connecting
with?
Robin (20:49):
Yeah, that is a good question. And it's as a
leadership adviser, one of thethings that I'm actually working
on at the moment with buildingrelationships between our local
principals, tumuaki and and ourhapū. Where we are in Napier,
we're part of Ngāti Kahungunu,that's the that's the iwi, and
(21:09):
Ngāti Kahungunu goes from upMahia way all the way down
through the Wairarapa. So hugeiwi, and me thinking if I'm a
new principal, I'm going to ringup the iwi and get them to help
me with the stuff. I mean,they've got bigger fish to fry
than, than working with me atthe moment. And so I might be a
little bit disappointed if Ithink, you know, that
(21:31):
transactional kind of thing, I'mthe customer, I'm going to ring
you up and and I'm going toexpect this kind of service. I'm
likely to be disappointed. Andso what I know in Napier is that
there are seven marae, and Idon't know, there might be seven
or ten hapū linked to thosemarae. They're all related and
(21:54):
in some regards there's ataiwhenua that ties them
together, and there's also PSGsthat tie them together from
Treaty settlements
Mārama (22:05):
Can you just, so PSG is a?
Robin (22:07):
Post Settlement Government entity
Mārama (22:10):
Thank you
Robin (22:10):
So when you have a Treaty settlement, in order to get the
settlement, you have to set up aPSG as an entity to to run that.
And so there are those entitiesthat I've connected with. And,
you know, there's the differentmarae that I've been to and
connected with. And it'sprobably it's not a, you know,
(22:34):
two month job, it's probably aten year job. And it's about,
you know, when there arecelebrations or tangi or
wānanga that are being run, goalong and help out in the
kitchen or I go along and bethere, be a face and listen, not
(22:55):
stand up and be the the main mantalking, because that's not my
role, I'm there to buildrelationship. And then, you know,
I can start to identify who arethe people that are best for me
to talk to, who can help me inthe space, but also, where's the
reciprocity in that? So whenthere's a tangi on, look, if you
(23:16):
need to use our school hall tosleep people to help with
overflow from the tangi, you'reabsolutely welcome to use it.
We've got a kitchen at theschool if you need to use the
kitchen for some local event,hapū event, absolutely. We've
got a hāngī cooker, you canborrow that if you need to use
that. We've got our kids comingout to help clean up the marae
(23:37):
because we want to do that. Orwhen you're running a pōhiri,
we've got also a group of kidswho can come out and tautoko in
that space. So it's not just usthinking, how are we going to
get stuff from our hapū and ouriwi and our whānau, it's about
how do we give so that itactually helps the learning
experience of our tamariki aswell
Mārama (23:58):
It's great. Teatowel-tanga really you know,
that's the start place, isn't it?You're getting all those aunties
out the back and they'll tellyou, they run the place, don't
they
Also reciprocity that's soimportant. Don't go out with
your, your hand open, but howcan we help you and that's such
(24:19):
a strong way to start arelationship between between us,
between hapū, between schools.Yeah, I love that.
Robin (24:27):
Kia ora
Mārama (24:28):
Kia ora kōrua. Tom and Robin are going to stay with us
for the next episode, and we'regoing to talk more about the
challenges of leading a kurawithin te ao Māori and while
working within an English mediumframework. Mā te wā.
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