June 2, 2025 • 20 mins
In this episode, Mārama discusses the challenges and opportunities of tumuaki Māori leading a school in an English-medium system.
Mārama’s guests are:
- Robin Fabish, former tumuaki and current Leadership Advisor for the Ministry of Education
- Tom Paekau, tumuaki of Te Kura o Tūtarawānanga Merivale School in Tauranga Moana.
This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education as part of Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals.
You can learn more by accessing Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals e-learning modules on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz
Show notes
Episode themes:
- The inner challenges of following the directives you have to follow as tumuaki while still wanting to be pono to your own philosophy on education.
- Your board can be your biggest support.
- The importance of having mentors as a new tumuaki to help guide you through these challenges.
- Remember schools do have a lot of autonomy, and that the Education Act says one of your primary roles as school leaders is giving effect to Te Tiriti.
Additional information
Dr Ann Milne https://www.annmilne.co.nz
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mārama (00:08):
Tēnā koutou katoa and welcome back to The Principals,
a podcast series for new tumuakiin Aotearoa New Zealand. I'm
Mārama Stewart and today I amcontinuing my kōrero with
tumuaki Tom Paekau and formerprincipal and current leadership
advisor Robin Fabish. In ourlast episode, we talked a lot
about connection, connectionwith your own version of te ao
(00:29):
Māori, connection with iwi andhapū and we started off talking
about our own experiences atschool were not, that were not
great. And that must be quite acommon theme across many Māori
families when they're coming toschool and then all of a sudden
you're there as the tumuaki, isthere any pushes and pulls there
or any experiences that you'vehad Tom where this has been a
(00:51):
bit of a challenge
Tom (00:53):
Hmm, good question Mārama. I've been doing some mahi
outside of my kura for a Crownentity and, and have been
struggling internally this lastweek around whether I'm fit for
purpose for that role becausethere are measures of successes
in schools that do notnecessarily align with
(01:17):
government priorities orgovernment initiatives. And
sometimes it's really, you know,it's soul destroying that we
have to operate in such a mannerwhere we being, you know we're
doing the directives as we'vebeen instructed, but still want
(01:38):
to be pono to our own philosophyon education. So yes, there's
always that going on, alwaysinner turmoil, and it's turmoil.
However for myself, it's juststriking that balance and just
knowing that you know, there'san accountability factor that we
(01:59):
need to take into considerationwith every decision that we make.
However, if you can justify anaction, a change or an idea, I
think that's... There are morewins than there are losses in my
experience, and thejustification of actually
(02:22):
getting decisions across theline really comes down to in
schools, I think is how youpresent that to your board.
Because if your board believesin what you've presented 100%,
then they will go to bat for youif there is ever pushback from
from the Ministry or from otherexternal agencies, because there
(02:47):
is, if there is truth in what is,in what you're trying to present,
I guess, I've had that on onnumerous occasions and yep been
pushed back a couple of times,but I think experience, it comes
with experience. So as a tumuaki,you know what, may get across
the line and you know what whatdefinitely won't and okay. I'll
(03:12):
present a scenario, it'sactually quite funny. So one of
my teachers has won a deputyprincipal's position, so he won
it earlier this term. So I toldthe board, you know, if we're
being true to our kaupapa, weneed to go and tautoko our
kaiako into his new role. Howwould you feel about closing the
(03:34):
school on the last day of schooland we go up to his pōhiri? Yep.
They were 100% for it. Anyway, Iknew that it probably wouldn't
get across the line just knowingabout what what's taking place
at the minute. However, followeddue process, presented to the
Ministry,expected that wewouldn't get a get it across the
(03:59):
line and of course we didn't.However, we did have a plan B,
and that plan B is to work pastthe allotted time frame that you
are needed to make two half daysin a school day and then close
the school and go and have thepōhiri in the afternoon.
Mārama (04:19):
Yep.
Tom (04:19):
Yeah
Mārama (04:20):
That's a good workaround that you get from
experience. So for a new newtumuaki coming in, how do they
fill that gap of experience doyou think, what do they need to
do?
Tom (04:31):
Yeah, I think most tumuaki will have mentors that will can
can lead them and show them theropes. However there are other
organisations, Māoriorganisations that that are in
tumuaki leadership that can helpwith that as well. Te Akatea is
(04:53):
just one example of that, butthere are other avenues as well
and NZPF are very good at thatas well as and the other
organisations.
Mārama (05:04):
That's awesome. How about you Robin, have you ever
experienced any kind of...
Robin (05:09):
Yeah. Well look, just following on from, from Tom's
kōrero there, and, I wouldquestion if we actually need to
close the school to tautoko thetumuaki tuarua at his pōhiri
because if our whānau have saidto us we want our children to
learn tikanga, well then that'spart of your curriculum. This is
(05:31):
what we're doing today. And soit's a EOTC trip. You don't have
to close your school brother.And so it's about, you know, are
there some other possibilitiesaround that and thinking about,
okay, actually this is part ofour curriculum, so it's
legitimate. We can do our ourone hour of reading and writing
(05:52):
and maths in the morning andthen take the kura to the
pōhiri so. Heoi ano, it is achallenge, you know that space
of, of being a an agent for theCrown, right. And I grappled
with this for a little while aswell until I realised that you
know, in the Treaty relationshipI'm tangata whenua, but also
(06:19):
when I'm leading a school I'mrepresenting the Crown, and
actually that gives me a lot ofability to influence and lead in
that space of what thepartnership can actually look
like. And, you know, I caninfluence my board and influence
the kura in our community aboutthe things that we can do that
(06:44):
honour Te Tiriti o Waitangi andand the original intent of the
partnership. So I found thatquite freeing after a while you
know, because schools areautonomous entities since
Tomorrow's Schools, you know,that was introduced, we do have
a lot of autonomy as to what wecan do or can't do. There are
(07:07):
expectations that governmentscan say and and we're in a
context where the, you know, thefocus on, clearer curriculum,
literacy and numeracy, thosegovernment priorities at the
moment. And that's fine becauseI think many of those are good
things. And we also have BAU,business as usual, which is
(07:30):
about giving effect to Te Tiritio Waitangi because our Education
Training Act still says that'sone of the primary roles of our
jobs as school leaders andboards of trustees. So it's
knowing that actually it's not aeither or. And that I can be
(07:50):
doing both and still doing theright thing by
tangatawhenuatanga, as well asstanding in that Tangata Tiriti
space. So it is it is the kindof thing that is important to
kind of work through and discusswith others, to find some, to be
able to reconcile it withourselves so that we can lead
strongly in that space.
Mārama (08:11):
So it's like a real partnership in action, really,
isn't it? If we do it well, iseveryone is a winner. And I
think too that I hear and it'sreflected in the School
Leadership - Best EvidenceSynthesis that Māori education
leaders can really act asmassive change agents within the
(08:31):
existing power structures thatwe have. And we can bring
communities together and bestrong advocates for our Māori
students. And, you know, KaHikitia says that what's good
for Māori is good for all. AndI think you guys are really good
examples of of the hard mahi butthe valuable mahi our brown
faces at the front do for ourkids. Yeah. Making schools a
(08:56):
safe place to be that way
Robin (09:00):
Kia ora.
Mārama (09:01):
So a question I often have on my mind myself. To lead
a school as tumuaki Māori andI'm not a fluent reo Māori
speaker and it often has in myhead, am I Māori enough to be
leading a school within te aoMāori or could I even lead a
(09:21):
school in a Māori medium way.How do you feel about that,
Robin?
Robin (09:28):
I think for those of us who didn't grow up as native
speakers or haven't been tokohanga or kura kaupapa and
really immersed for a number ofyears in reo and tikanga there
is, there's a loss that we feelabout that. You know, my
(09:53):
mother's generation stoppedspeaking the reo because their
parents believed that it wasn'timportant for for them going
forward, believed the hegemony.
And so I've invested a lot oftime in addressing that in my
own children are doing immersioncourses at the moment to become
fluent, which I'm really proudof, because that means that when
(10:16):
my mokopuna are born, they'llgrow up in both languages. And,
you know, they say it takes onegeneration to lose a language,
three generations to get it back.And, you know, when my children
have kids, that'll be our thirdgeneration. So I'm really
pleased and really proud of that.But I know for tumuaki Māori,
(10:41):
there is that whole sense of Ifeel like an imposter because I
know, you've got from thespectrum from I know somewhere
along the lines somebody said weyou know, a tīpuna was a Māori
princess, through to I know alittle bit of, you know, whe we
come from, but we don't reallytalk about that, through to, you
(11:02):
know, yes, I know we've been tothe marae and that, but we don't
have the reo and I don't knowhow to do certain things and all
the way through to absolutelysteeped in and this is how we
roll and there's a degree ofwhakamā or shame or
embarrassment that goes withthat when you're Māori and you
(11:22):
can't speak the language someonespeaks to you in te reo and you
can't reply. But also there's,you don't look Māori but you
are Māori and people assumeyou're not. So so there's,
there's, there's that as well.And so we've got tumuaki who are
absolutely, absolutely in thatspace. And for me I've been
(11:42):
working with one who, who knowsa little bit about his whakapapa,
wants to do better and so I'vehelped him with a kōrero he can
do in assembly and I'm going tocheck up with him in a week or
so just to say how did that go?And so I will bend over
backwards to help those people.And it's important that people
(12:03):
who are on their journey knowthat there are people like us
who will do anything we can tostrengthen them, bec for them to
be able to go through thatjourney and come out the other
side, whatever that looks like,but stronger and more confident
to lead as Māori, having themstand strongly in that space in
(12:23):
front of a kura is such animportant thing for our mokopuna.
Mārama (12:27):
Yeah, it's wonderful to see that change. How about you,
Tom? Have you experienced thistoo or have you mentored staff
through this kind of continuumof how we feel as a Māori
leader?
Tom (12:39):
Yeah. Robin hit the nail on the head when, you know, he
mentioned that the generationbefore ours were part of that
lost reo generation. And so andagain the same as, as a lot of
my, my colleagues and friendsgrowing up at the same time you
(13:00):
know not not, not that strong inour reo, but that was you come
to accept that it is up to youto, to, to learn and grow. But I
think one of the the things thatwe do as tumuaki Māori is that
we do support those peoplecoming through because there
weren't those opportunities whenwe were coming through for to,
(13:25):
to access or to strengthen ourour knowledge around around reo.
The one thing I think we need toremember is that if we're Māori
we whakapapa, right, so anybodythat tells us that we're not
Māori enough is not actuallypractising in my view, the te ao
(13:46):
Māori kaupapa either. Becauseby saying somebody is not Māori
enough, it's denying all thatperson's whakapapa, their tupuna,
all that sort of stuff that camebefore. And but I'd like to
think that, like my, my role nowis to help Māori coming through,
(14:06):
particularly in my my kaiako,I'm always the first to, if they
come to see me that they want todo courses or anything like that,
yep chuck them straight onparticularly if it's it's, it's
a course that directly relatesback to their own hapū and iwi,
yeah, 100%.
(14:27):
And, y know Robin spoke tooabout on the, on the marae and
perhaps not having the knowledgearound certain spaces. But I'm
lucky, I can only talk from myperspective, but I have whānau
in those spaces that that that Ican lean on when it comes to
that. Because they know my joband I know my role too when I go
(14:49):
home, man I'm at the back, I'mnot that dude at the front.
And actually, for me, I findthat quite refreshing because in
our role as tumuaki we arealways out the front and that's
that's that leadership role thatwe carry in this life that we
(15:10):
lead outside of our personallives. So I love I love being on
the tea towel. I love I lovehelping you out, you know,
putting the hangi down and thatsort of thing, depending what I
am doing at the marae, because Iknow that that everything else
is safe. And now that my mycousins who are of my age now
(15:31):
they're the nannies and theaunties that are all, you know,
shouting all the theinstructions, and you're so like,
oh, yeah Cuz you've slipped intothat role quite nicely.
Mārama (15:42):
S of them are born to it aren't they
Tom (15:45):
Yeah 100%. And so coming up through the ranks are the new
ones, and then you know that's,you know and know my role
outside of of that as well
Mārama (15:53):
That's so special. Yes Robin?
Robin (15:55):
Can I just share too Mārama, just thinking what Tom
was saying about developingkaiako. One of the things that I
noticed when we start tonormalize tikanga Māori and te
reo Māori and te ao Māori inour school is that more people
start identifying as Māori. SoI would have staff who would say
(16:15):
to me, who I've known for acouple of years, say, oh, you
know, I've got whakapapa Māori,blah, blah, blah, but I never
knew about it. But it's when westart normalising it that people
feel okay about claiming it andthey feel okay about claiming it
and Tom used the word safebecause we've created a safe
space for people to explore whatbeing Māori for them looks like
(16:36):
and help them along on thejourney. And the same thing for
our ākonga, that we havestudents who haven't necessarily
they I don't necessarily lookMāori and you go, wow, and then
they're starting to identifybecause they see these strong
role models in the other tauirawho have maybe in the rumaki or
(17:00):
who are standing up in kapa hakaor leading from the front in
assembly who are obviouslyMāori speaking Māori. And it
sends the message to the kidsthat this is welcome here, this
is normal, it's how we do things.And if you want to be part of
that world, if you are part ofthat world, then let's celebrate
that. So, you know, I thinkthat's one I can't measure that.
(17:23):
But anecdotally my sense is thatthat's a good thing for for
everyone and it's great for ournon-Māori kids, too, because it
gives them the opportunity tofeel comfortable and realise
there's nothing to be scared offrom te ao Māori and that
they're not losing as a resultof learning these things.
They're actually gaining becausethey can be comfortable in both
(17:45):
worlds as well.
Mārama (17:46):
Yeah, it's quite a healing journey, isn't it, for a
whole community when we all growtogether and acknowledge that
we're all important and arecontributing positively through
being authentic to our owncultures.
Robin (17:59):
Well, and what I also notice is that when different
cultures are celebrated, youknow, not just Western culture,
but then we had our Filipinokids saying, oh, look, we want
to perform or we want to showthis is how we do things to the
rest of the school as well. Orwe have our Pasifika kids who
want to give performances andshow this is and, you know, it's
(18:23):
you know, they'll come and say,look, it's a certain celebration.
Can we run our Samoan flag upthe flagpole today, you know?
And so when you startrecognising biculturalism, it
creates the space formulticulturalism
Mārama (18:37):
It does, it does. And I have to advocate for Filipino
whānau joining the Kapahakabecause the kai they bring to
the noho, ah, chef's kiss.
Robin (18:47):
Beautiful, ka pai.
Mārama (18:49):
Ka pai. Is there anything else, anything you
think we've missed or want tokōrero about?
Tom (18:54):
No, just again, affirming what Robin said, that
celebrating of other culturesyou know and it does create an
environment which nurtures that,having, being a bicultural kura.
And yeah, recently I visited akura who had four bilingual
(19:18):
units, so they had Tongan,Samoan, Niuean and Māori.
Mārama (19:24):
Wow.
Tom (19:25):
And the questions, you know, we were asking some students
questions later and one of theone of the students was Filipino.
And she was like, I can't waituntil they create a Filipino
bilingual unit and I was justlike, that's pretty cool. It's a
school that fits that celebratesculture and is very
(19:47):
multicultural. Ka pai tēnā.
Mārama (19:49):
That's wonderful. Well, thank you kōrua, thank you for
being on my inaugural podcasttoday.
Robin (19:58):
Pleasure Mārama, awesome to join you all.
Tom (19:59):
Yeah. Ka pai Mārama, and all the best for this mahi, yeah,
you're fantastic. You hit themark today.
Mārama (20:08):
Oh, thank you. Do I get another sausage roll when I come
visit?
Tom (20:15):
Talk to you later.
Robin (20:15):
Ka kite koutou. Ngā mihi.
Mārama (20:17):
Thank you so much. In the next episode will be talking
about leadership journeys andthe paths some of us have taken
to become Māori tumuaki Mā tewā.
Tēnā koutou katoa and welcome back to The Principals,
a podcast series for new tumuakiin Aotearoa New Zealand. I'm
Mārama Stewart and today I amcontinuing my kōrero with
tumuaki Tom Paekau and formerprincipal and current leadership
advisor Robin Fabish. In ourlast episode, we talked a lot
about connection, connectionwith your own version of te ao
(00:29):
Māori, connection with iwi andhapū and we started off talking
about our own experiences atschool were not, that were not
great. And that must be quite acommon theme across many Māori
families when they're coming toschool and then all of a sudden
you're there as the tumuaki, isthere any pushes and pulls there
or any experiences that you'vehad Tom where this has been a
(00:51):
bit of a challenge
Tom (00:53):
Hmm, good question Mārama. I've been doing some mahi
outside of my kura for a Crownentity and, and have been
struggling internally this lastweek around whether I'm fit for
purpose for that role becausethere are measures of successes
in schools that do notnecessarily align with
(01:17):
government priorities orgovernment initiatives. And
sometimes it's really, you know,it's soul destroying that we
have to operate in such a mannerwhere we being, you know we're
doing the directives as we'vebeen instructed, but still want
(01:38):
to be pono to our own philosophyon education. So yes, there's
always that going on, alwaysinner turmoil, and it's turmoil.
However for myself, it's juststriking that balance and just
knowing that you know, there'san accountability factor that we
(01:59):
need to take into considerationwith every decision that we make.
However, if you can justify anaction, a change or an idea, I
think that's... There are morewins than there are losses in my
experience, and thejustification of actually
(02:22):
getting decisions across theline really comes down to in
schools, I think is how youpresent that to your board.
Because if your board believesin what you've presented 100%,
then they will go to bat for youif there is ever pushback from
from the Ministry or from otherexternal agencies, because there
(02:47):
is, if there is truth in what is,in what you're trying to present,
I guess, I've had that on onnumerous occasions and yep been
pushed back a couple of times,but I think experience, it comes
with experience. So as a tumuaki,you know what, may get across
the line and you know what whatdefinitely won't and okay. I'll
(03:12):
present a scenario, it'sactually quite funny. So one of
my teachers has won a deputyprincipal's position, so he won
it earlier this term. So I toldthe board, you know, if we're
being true to our kaupapa, weneed to go and tautoko our
kaiako into his new role. Howwould you feel about closing the
(03:34):
school on the last day of schooland we go up to his pōhiri? Yep.
They were 100% for it. Anyway, Iknew that it probably wouldn't
get across the line just knowingabout what what's taking place
at the minute. However, followeddue process, presented to the
Ministry,expected that wewouldn't get a get it across the
(03:59):
line and of course we didn't.However, we did have a plan B,
and that plan B is to work pastthe allotted time frame that you
are needed to make two half daysin a school day and then close
the school and go and have thepōhiri in the afternoon.
Mārama (04:19):
Yep.
Tom (04:19):
Yeah
Mārama (04:20):
That's a good workaround that you get from
experience. So for a new newtumuaki coming in, how do they
fill that gap of experience doyou think, what do they need to
do?
Tom (04:31):
Yeah, I think most tumuaki will have mentors that will can
can lead them and show them theropes. However there are other
organisations, Māoriorganisations that that are in
tumuaki leadership that can helpwith that as well. Te Akatea is
(04:53):
just one example of that, butthere are other avenues as well
and NZPF are very good at thatas well as and the other
organisations.
Mārama (05:04):
That's awesome. How about you Robin, have you ever
experienced any kind of...
Robin (05:09):
Yeah. Well look, just following on from, from Tom's
kōrero there, and, I wouldquestion if we actually need to
close the school to tautoko thetumuaki tuarua at his pōhiri
because if our whānau have saidto us we want our children to
learn tikanga, well then that'spart of your curriculum. This is
(05:31):
what we're doing today. And soit's a EOTC trip. You don't have
to close your school brother.And so it's about, you know, are
there some other possibilitiesaround that and thinking about,
okay, actually this is part ofour curriculum, so it's
legitimate. We can do our ourone hour of reading and writing
(05:52):
and maths in the morning andthen take the kura to the
pōhiri so. Heoi ano, it is achallenge, you know that space
of, of being a an agent for theCrown, right. And I grappled
with this for a little while aswell until I realised that you
know, in the Treaty relationshipI'm tangata whenua, but also
(06:19):
when I'm leading a school I'mrepresenting the Crown, and
actually that gives me a lot ofability to influence and lead in
that space of what thepartnership can actually look
like. And, you know, I caninfluence my board and influence
the kura in our community aboutthe things that we can do that
(06:44):
honour Te Tiriti o Waitangi andand the original intent of the
partnership. So I found thatquite freeing after a while you
know, because schools areautonomous entities since
Tomorrow's Schools, you know,that was introduced, we do have
a lot of autonomy as to what wecan do or can't do. There are
(07:07):
expectations that governmentscan say and and we're in a
context where the, you know, thefocus on, clearer curriculum,
literacy and numeracy, thosegovernment priorities at the
moment. And that's fine becauseI think many of those are good
things. And we also have BAU,business as usual, which is
(07:30):
about giving effect to Te Tiritio Waitangi because our Education
Training Act still says that'sone of the primary roles of our
jobs as school leaders andboards of trustees. So it's
knowing that actually it's not aeither or. And that I can be
(07:50):
doing both and still doing theright thing by
tangatawhenuatanga, as well asstanding in that Tangata Tiriti
space. So it is it is the kindof thing that is important to
kind of work through and discusswith others, to find some, to be
able to reconcile it withourselves so that we can lead
strongly in that space.
Mārama (08:11):
So it's like a real partnership in action, really,
isn't it? If we do it well, iseveryone is a winner. And I
think too that I hear and it'sreflected in the School
Leadership - Best EvidenceSynthesis that Māori education
leaders can really act asmassive change agents within the
(08:31):
existing power structures thatwe have. And we can bring
communities together and bestrong advocates for our Māori
students. And, you know, KaHikitia says that what's good
for Māori is good for all. AndI think you guys are really good
examples of of the hard mahi butthe valuable mahi our brown
faces at the front do for ourkids. Yeah. Making schools a
(08:56):
safe place to be that way
Robin (09:00):
Kia ora.
Mārama (09:01):
So a question I often have on my mind myself. To lead
a school as tumuaki Māori andI'm not a fluent reo Māori
speaker and it often has in myhead, am I Māori enough to be
leading a school within te aoMāori or could I even lead a
(09:21):
school in a Māori medium way.How do you feel about that,
Robin?
Robin (09:28):
I think for those of us who didn't grow up as native
speakers or haven't been tokohanga or kura kaupapa and
really immersed for a number ofyears in reo and tikanga there
is, there's a loss that we feelabout that. You know, my
(09:53):
mother's generation stoppedspeaking the reo because their
parents believed that it wasn'timportant for for them going
forward, believed the hegemony.
And so I've invested a lot oftime in addressing that in my
own children are doing immersioncourses at the moment to become
fluent, which I'm really proudof, because that means that when
(10:16):
my mokopuna are born, they'llgrow up in both languages. And,
you know, they say it takes onegeneration to lose a language,
three generations to get it back.And, you know, when my children
have kids, that'll be our thirdgeneration. So I'm really
pleased and really proud of that.But I know for tumuaki Māori,
(10:41):
there is that whole sense of Ifeel like an imposter because I
know, you've got from thespectrum from I know somewhere
along the lines somebody said weyou know, a tīpuna was a Māori
princess, through to I know alittle bit of, you know, whe we
come from, but we don't reallytalk about that, through to, you
(11:02):
know, yes, I know we've been tothe marae and that, but we don't
have the reo and I don't knowhow to do certain things and all
the way through to absolutelysteeped in and this is how we
roll and there's a degree ofwhakamā or shame or
embarrassment that goes withthat when you're Māori and you
(11:22):
can't speak the language someonespeaks to you in te reo and you
can't reply. But also there's,you don't look Māori but you
are Māori and people assumeyou're not. So so there's,
there's, there's that as well.And so we've got tumuaki who are
absolutely, absolutely in thatspace. And for me I've been
(11:42):
working with one who, who knowsa little bit about his whakapapa,
wants to do better and so I'vehelped him with a kōrero he can
do in assembly and I'm going tocheck up with him in a week or
so just to say how did that go?And so I will bend over
backwards to help those people.And it's important that people
(12:03):
who are on their journey knowthat there are people like us
who will do anything we can tostrengthen them, bec for them to
be able to go through thatjourney and come out the other
side, whatever that looks like,but stronger and more confident
to lead as Māori, having themstand strongly in that space in
(12:23):
front of a kura is such animportant thing for our mokopuna.
Mārama (12:27):
Yeah, it's wonderful to see that change. How about you,
Tom? Have you experienced thistoo or have you mentored staff
through this kind of continuumof how we feel as a Māori
leader?
Tom (12:39):
Yeah. Robin hit the nail on the head when, you know, he
mentioned that the generationbefore ours were part of that
lost reo generation. And so andagain the same as, as a lot of
my, my colleagues and friendsgrowing up at the same time you
(13:00):
know not not, not that strong inour reo, but that was you come
to accept that it is up to youto, to, to learn and grow. But I
think one of the the things thatwe do as tumuaki Māori is that
we do support those peoplecoming through because there
weren't those opportunities whenwe were coming through for to,
(13:25):
to access or to strengthen ourour knowledge around around reo.
The one thing I think we need toremember is that if we're Māori
we whakapapa, right, so anybodythat tells us that we're not
Māori enough is not actuallypractising in my view, the te ao
(13:46):
Māori kaupapa either. Becauseby saying somebody is not Māori
enough, it's denying all thatperson's whakapapa, their tupuna,
all that sort of stuff that camebefore. And but I'd like to
think that, like my, my role nowis to help Māori coming through,
(14:06):
particularly in my my kaiako,I'm always the first to, if they
come to see me that they want todo courses or anything like that,
yep chuck them straight onparticularly if it's it's, it's
a course that directly relatesback to their own hapū and iwi,
yeah, 100%.
(14:27):
And, y know Robin spoke tooabout on the, on the marae and
perhaps not having the knowledgearound certain spaces. But I'm
lucky, I can only talk from myperspective, but I have whānau
in those spaces that that that Ican lean on when it comes to
that. Because they know my joband I know my role too when I go
(14:49):
home, man I'm at the back, I'mnot that dude at the front.
And actually, for me, I findthat quite refreshing because in
our role as tumuaki we arealways out the front and that's
that's that leadership role thatwe carry in this life that we
(15:10):
lead outside of our personallives. So I love I love being on
the tea towel. I love I lovehelping you out, you know,
putting the hangi down and thatsort of thing, depending what I
am doing at the marae, because Iknow that that everything else
is safe. And now that my mycousins who are of my age now
(15:31):
they're the nannies and theaunties that are all, you know,
shouting all the theinstructions, and you're so like,
oh, yeah Cuz you've slipped intothat role quite nicely.
Mārama (15:42):
S of them are born to it aren't they
Tom (15:45):
Yeah 100%. And so coming up through the ranks are the new
ones, and then you know that's,you know and know my role
outside of of that as well
Mārama (15:53):
That's so special. Yes Robin?
Robin (15:55):
Can I just share too Mārama, just thinking what Tom
was saying about developingkaiako. One of the things that I
noticed when we start tonormalize tikanga Māori and te
reo Māori and te ao Māori inour school is that more people
start identifying as Māori. SoI would have staff who would say
(16:15):
to me, who I've known for acouple of years, say, oh, you
know, I've got whakapapa Māori,blah, blah, blah, but I never
knew about it. But it's when westart normalising it that people
feel okay about claiming it andthey feel okay about claiming it
and Tom used the word safebecause we've created a safe
space for people to explore whatbeing Māori for them looks like
(16:36):
and help them along on thejourney. And the same thing for
our ākonga, that we havestudents who haven't necessarily
they I don't necessarily lookMāori and you go, wow, and then
they're starting to identifybecause they see these strong
role models in the other tauirawho have maybe in the rumaki or
(17:00):
who are standing up in kapa hakaor leading from the front in
assembly who are obviouslyMāori speaking Māori. And it
sends the message to the kidsthat this is welcome here, this
is normal, it's how we do things.And if you want to be part of
that world, if you are part ofthat world, then let's celebrate
that. So, you know, I thinkthat's one I can't measure that.
(17:23):
But anecdotally my sense is thatthat's a good thing for for
everyone and it's great for ournon-Māori kids, too, because it
gives them the opportunity tofeel comfortable and realise
there's nothing to be scared offrom te ao Māori and that
they're not losing as a resultof learning these things.
They're actually gaining becausethey can be comfortable in both
(17:45):
worlds as well.
Mārama (17:46):
Yeah, it's quite a healing journey, isn't it, for a
whole community when we all growtogether and acknowledge that
we're all important and arecontributing positively through
being authentic to our owncultures.
Robin (17:59):
Well, and what I also notice is that when different
cultures are celebrated, youknow, not just Western culture,
but then we had our Filipinokids saying, oh, look, we want
to perform or we want to showthis is how we do things to the
rest of the school as well. Orwe have our Pasifika kids who
want to give performances andshow this is and, you know, it's
(18:23):
you know, they'll come and say,look, it's a certain celebration.
Can we run our Samoan flag upthe flagpole today, you know?
And so when you startrecognising biculturalism, it
creates the space formulticulturalism
Mārama (18:37):
It does, it does. And I have to advocate for Filipino
whānau joining the Kapahakabecause the kai they bring to
the noho, ah, chef's kiss.
Robin (18:47):
Beautiful, ka pai.
Mārama (18:49):
Ka pai. Is there anything else, anything you
think we've missed or want tokōrero about?
Tom (18:54):
No, just again, affirming what Robin said, that
celebrating of other culturesyou know and it does create an
environment which nurtures that,having, being a bicultural kura.
And yeah, recently I visited akura who had four bilingual
(19:18):
units, so they had Tongan,Samoan, Niuean and Māori.
Mārama (19:24):
Wow.
Tom (19:25):
And the questions, you know, we were asking some students
questions later and one of theone of the students was Filipino.
And she was like, I can't waituntil they create a Filipino
bilingual unit and I was justlike, that's pretty cool. It's a
school that fits that celebratesculture and is very
(19:47):
multicultural. Ka pai tēnā.
Mārama (19:49):
That's wonderful. Well, thank you kōrua, thank you for
being on my inaugural podcasttoday.
Robin (19:58):
Pleasure Mārama, awesome to join you all.
Tom (19:59):
Yeah. Ka pai Mārama, and all the best for this mahi, yeah,
you're fantastic. You hit themark today.
Mārama (20:08):
Oh, thank you. Do I get another sausage roll when I come
visit?
Tom (20:15):
Talk to you later.
Robin (20:15):
Ka kite koutou. Ngā mihi.
Mārama (20:17):
Thank you so much. In the next episode will be talking
about leadership journeys andthe paths some of us have taken
to become Māori tumuaki Mā tewā.
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