June 30, 2025 • 25 mins
Kō ngā tahu ā ō tapuwai inanahi, hei tauira mō āpōpō
Leading an organisation as tumuaki Māori has its own unique challenges and opportunities. We often use the whakatauki Poipoia te Kākako kia pūawai to emphasise the importance of nurturing our tamariki,
A pressing issue right now is how we’re nurturing our aspiring and new principals, in particular our young tumuaki Māori. How do we, as experienced and leading principals, curate leadership journeys that empower new and aspiring tumuaki Māori to last the challenges of the current day?
Mārama’s guests are:
- Marissa Peters, Principal of Tarawera High School in Kawerau Eastern Bay of Plenty
- Mikaere October, Principal of Trident High School, Whakatāne
- Leanne Otene, President of New Zealand Principals’ Federation and Principal of 30 years of service this year.
This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education as part of Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals.
You can learn more by accessing Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals e-learning modules on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz
Episode themes:
- What it was like to be tumuaki Māori in the 1990s and how it has changed
- Learning that walking in both the pākeha and Maōri worlds is a strength, not a weakness
- The importance of having good role models
- The importance of knowing who you are and being authentic in that, of finding your voice and standing up for yourself and for your kura and tamariki
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mārama (00:07):
Kia ora and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new tumuaki in Aotearoa NewZealand. My name is Mārama
Stuart and back with me todayare Marissa Peters, tumuaki of
Tarawera High School in Kawerau,Mikaere October, tumuaki of
Trident High School in Whakatane,and Leanne Otene, former tumuaki
(00:28):
and current president of the NewZealand Principals Federation.
Thank you all for your precioustime today. In the last episode,
we were talking about beingauthentically Māori as tumuaki
and I was so glad that came upbecause because um, our
listeners won't know this butMarissa you have a beautiful
moko kauae. It's amazing thatnow, I know back in Leanne's day,
(00:51):
I don't think that would havebeen possible, would it Leanne?
Leanne (00:55):
Absolutely not, you know, back then even speaking te reo
in a professional setting was arisk, very risky, and cultural
safety wasn't something that wetalked about really and it
certainly was not something thatwas practised. You know I was
constantly trying to manage theperceptions to not seem too
(01:17):
Māori, you know, that that's ashocker to me now to think that
that's how I felt. To now seewahine Māori and, you know,
Marisa wearing the moko kauaeproudly in leadership spaces,
you know, standing tall and aswe've all said unapologetically,
it's really deeply emotional forme. You know that would have
(01:39):
been unimaginable in the 90s, Ican't even I can't even think
what they would you know, whatpeople would have said or done
if I had walked into my firstschool, you know, with a moko
kauae, you know, a moko kauae isa tohu and, you know, and in my
limited understanding, you know,it talks to our endurance and
(02:00):
our reclamation of leadership inour space, you know. It reminds
me just how far we've come andhow powerful we are when we lead
with authenticity, which issomething we've all brought
through in this conversation,you know, but you know, change
isn't just about, isn't just innumbers of our wahine, you know,
(02:23):
and the moko kauae, it's the theshift from assimilation to
authenticity
that's how I feel about it and,you know, we're no longer asking
to be included or or puttingourselves in boxes, you know,
this is what a principal willlook like, will sound like
because that's how I felt when Ifirst went in - what's a
(02:44):
principal, well they look likethis, they sound like this and
they do this - you know, we'rereshaping that table and we're
reshaping that from, you know,to be us, so, no, it would
definitely, I don't evenremember actually seeing anyone
with a moko kauae inprincipalship.
Mārama (03:04):
Do you think, Marissa, that your choice to reclaim this
precious and almost lost part ofour culture has affected you
today as a leader?
Marissa (03:13):
Um
I don't believe it has. And Ithink the reason for my moko
kauae was never trying toestablish my identity as being
Māori,more so it it wasactually part of a grieving
process for me I'd alwaysthought about getting a moko
(03:35):
kauae, and I actually lost my 10years ago and hence the move to
Kawerau to be closer to mytāne's whānau and to give our
tamariki the opportunity to growwith their grandparents. And
what actually happened was I'dgone to a couple of mokopapa and
I'd never seen anyone receivetheir moko kauae prior to and
(04:00):
sitting through a mokopapa, youyou start to realise the taha
wairua that goes with thekaupapa, and so discussions were
were had with my tāne and mywhānau,and I actually had a
conversation with my principalat the time, Helen Tuhoro, or
the former principal of TaraweraHigh School, and I said to her,
(04:23):
look Helen, I just want you tobe aware that I'm looking at
getting my kauae done because Iwanted to see what her reaction
would be to having a kaiako, ateacher, on-staff, who would
have a moko kauae. So this wasaround the time that moko kauae
was starting to become, it wasbecoming a thing. You know, you
(04:44):
were seeing all these mokopapahappening, so I asked her the
question and we sat and we had areally good discussion about it,
about my why, what were somethings that I thought might
happen after I get it done and Ishared with I was actually
scared about the backlash
(05:05):
and whether or not people wouldjudge me on having a moko kauae.
And that was years before Iactually got it done. So it
wasn't just say oh choice I'mgoing to get it done, it was
years of having kōrero aroundmy why, being comfortable with
(05:25):
knowing if I'm going to bequestioned, how will I answer
those questions because peopleare curious. And funnily enough,
after I got my kauai it wasn'tactually challenged by a
non-Māori, it wasn't actuallychallenged by a whānau member,
but more so by a tamaiti Māoriit threw but it also gave me an
(05:48):
opportunity to that for havingmoko kauae, and that can also be
associated to some form oftrauma.
I think for me in the sense ofthe effects for me as a leader,
no, not essentially, but I thinkit's helped me to to best
understand how people are, andhow people can perceive you, and
(06:12):
how you manage that. How youmanage yourself in challenging
situations.
Mārama (06:17):
That's amazing. You've also kind of spoken to, I think,
that common thing is that astumuaki Māori, our job isn't
just tumuaki. We are held up asa standard for all Māori
whether we are having a bad dayor not or whether we're just
there with our moko kauae in thesupermarket. You will always be
(06:38):
held up as, you know, oh well,she's a representative of all
tumuaki Māori whether she wantsto be or not. Have you ever
found that Mikaere where you'vebeen in a maybe a difficult
situation where you're held up?
Mikaere (06:52):
Yeah, it's interesting. I think the amount of times
people have been surprised thatI'm a tumuaki, you know, it's...
I find it quite funny,you know.And I guess um humbling in a
sense, you know? Because I carryquite a lot of tā moko And I'm
(07:12):
just having discussions aboutgetting my puhoro done, you know.
So, I think I'm up to about ahundred hours of tā moko across
my body. So, when I'm runningdown at touch, down at Rex
Morpeth, and I'm in a singletand shorts quite heavily, you
know, tā moko. But I havewhānau come up to me and just
say kia ora matua which you know,so that can be a real humbling
(07:34):
process. And I guess for otherswhere I'm normally in this shirt,
and suit, and I turn up to hui,and others people, you know, you
see people take a second look,or, you know, I Liam mentioned
about part of them paving theway us future leaders, and I
guess Marissa and I certainlyare examples of you know. But
still in a minority, one beingMāori, you know, Marissa,
(07:57):
obviously, being wahine, butalso our age. And so, in the
past, I'm not sure what theaverage age of a tumour-wike is
in Aotearoa, but I'm guessingit's into the 50s at least. So,
you know, for those of us whodon't possibly fit that
traditional you know, people arecurious about that. And I in my
(08:19):
early days, not as a tumuaki,but when I was a DP, I was a DP
quite young, I did have somepeople how I became a DP so
early, and I'll, I'll go far asfar as to say one person asked
if it was because I was Māoriand So, that was really
interesting, although after afew months, that person knew why
I was in the job, I think, but,you know, just again, those
(08:41):
stereotypes or you know, inpockets of our community, where
think Māori have advantagesover others, which all of us
here know that, you know, wewould question deeply. So, and
where comes from, but sometimesit's coming from a a place of
not knowing. But, you know, Iwas once told, you know, can
(09:02):
adults be ignorant or is thatjust reserved for children so
that that's an interestingquestion in itself?
Mārama (09:08):
Yeah, it It is. Yeah, I do enjoy playing the game,
whenever I'm in the office, andthey ask for the principal, a
I'm like, "Hi, it's me!"
Mikaere (09:18):
It's fantastic isn't it?
Mārama (09:20):
I know I have a little voice, but yes it's me. How
about you Leanne, you're kind ofthat next level to us. you're
down in Wellington with thosebig wigs
Leanne (09:31):
Well, you know, I was just about comment on the fact
that, you know, Marissa andMikaere and their age, you know,
and I'm looking at them going ohgod. Once upon a time I was the
youngest principal in NewZealand, believe it or not, 1995,
24 years old. So not only was IMāori, but I was also wahine
(09:52):
and I was young. And I hadn'tgone through the traditional
pathway of DP, AP, so that putme in a disadvantage. And that
was possibly the firstconversation I'd have with those,
you know, principals over theage of 60, up north, was, you
know, you shouldn't be aprincipal. You know, these are
(10:12):
my own colleagues saying this tome. You know,
young is also something that wehave to deal with. And you're
right, being Māori, beingwahine, just adds to that. you
know, I didn't set out to be asector leader, there's
absolutely, that that wasn't myintention. And, you know, I just
wanted to survive as a principal.And then survive as a Māori
(10:36):
principal, but, you know, overtime, survival turns into
advocacy, you know, I had TeAkatea very much. I became
involved regionally with AkaTokerau and nationally with Te
Akatea. And you then advocacyturns a transformation really,
you just want to make more of adifference. And, you know, my
(10:56):
junior has been one ofreclamation, of you know, my
identity, of my space, fightingeverything as I go along. And a
voice, y know.
There's definitely doubts, youknow, there's been doubts over
my career, where I've thought,you know, am I good enough? And,
you know, I'd look around theroom and I go, well, you know,
it takes some time for me torecognise why it was that I
(11:21):
didn't feel I was good enough.And it was really because I was
trying to prove myself. And Ithink that's one of the
strengths that we have as Māori,is that we are determined to be
the very best that we can be,because we're coming up across
people who expect differently,you know. We work harder, well,
(11:41):
I believe that we work a lotharder because we've got to
prove it. Others don't have toprove that. And so, you know,
there's definitely been griefand you talk about the trauma.
There's definitely been grieffor me in realising that much of
myself I've had to hide earlieron just to survive. To survive
(12:07):
and, you know, reclaiming myidentity over time and feeling
comfortable in the spaces that Inow stand in, has been part of
that healing, you know. And it'snever been about being the first.
It's always been about neverbeing the last. This is going to
(12:29):
be the last, you know. I leadtoday, not because of anything
that, anything other than thekaupapa. And the shared kaupapa
we have with our pākehacolleagues is that we want the
very best for every tamariki,every child, every tamariki in
our schools, that's what we'reafter. And of course, you know,
(12:51):
I don't park my identity atschool gate, you know, that's an
old saying. And I lead with it.And unapologetically lead with
it at the boardroom table withmy executive when I go into
rooms, you know. When I meet theminister, you know, I've had it,
she's had to get used to thefact that there's a key coming.
There's a hongi coming. You know,they just know now that Leanne's
(13:12):
going to do that. But that wasreal awkward for them, not for
me, but really awkward to startwith. And it's like how much do
I, how much do I put in of mykaupapa of the way I am into
those spaces that are really,really Eurocentric, and then I
just think to heck with it. I'mjust going to do me.
(13:36):
That's what I do, and you knowum I guess I've learned to
navigate with both aroha andfire. You know, aroha with my
colleagues that my non Māoricolleagues that find that
challenging to deal with te aoMāori. So, you know, I lead
with some aroha, I've learnedhow to push, but not push too
(13:57):
hard. You know, I'm really proudof the fact that the entire NZPF
executive are a MAC Cluster,Māori Achievement Collective.
You know, I brought thatstraight in when I came in here
because I needed them tounderstand why it is I am and
how I work and how I lead. It'sincredibly important for me. You
(14:17):
know, previous presidents hadhad their initial first meeting
at their school. I took themhome to Herekino, to my humble,
humble marae, you know. I wantedthem to know where I came from.
And you know, so we as Māori,we need to lead with aroha, we
need to also show thatwhanauungatanga and extend it to
(14:40):
our pākeha colleagues. you know,but at the same time I'm really
firm, firm about my values andnot shrinking it to fit them.
Mārama (14:48):
Yeah
Leanne (14:49):
You know, so, and then that fire. You know, I said,
there's aroha and there's alsofire. know, I, fire to challenge
and justice, you know.I'mprobably one of those justice
fighters and and, but the arohato bring the people with me, so,
you we may walk in two worldsand I had done my entire career,
(15:10):
but instead of choosing one,I've learned to honour them both
and be strong in both of them.And I think that it's, it's
important that we acknowledgethat we actually have an asset
in being Māori, that's an asseton top of being you know,
working to be a great principaland a great leader in our
(15:32):
communities. We have anadditional asset and that is
being Māori.
Mārama (15:37):
Yes , yeah, you're standing tall, confident,
self-assured as tumuaki Māori.Thinking back to our target
audience, our for our beginningprincipals, Mikaere and Marissa,
what do you think we need to door what advice would you give
them on starting their journey?Because it's pretty fresh for
(15:58):
you guys, on carving out thatstrong steps for our future, for
more tumuaki or themselves ontheir career, what would you
suggest for them to do, to getthat, be able to stand tall and
confident and self-assured as toworking Māori?
Marissa (16:15):
Oh, there's a few things in the end and I think,
Leanne, you knocked it on theit's being able to lead with
aroha with knowing, you do haveto make those tough decisions,
you do have to have that fire inyour belly to be able to to, you
know, to, to, to, to kaha, tokaha e to Singha Mahi. But you,
(16:37):
you talked about bringing ithome. And so for me, it's re
grounding yourself, re groundingyourself with who you are going
back to the Hokkainga kia puruyakuaia ngahoha nafarimātia. Um,
to have those people surroundyou who you can bounce off and
you appreciate their opinion,whether or not you agree with it,
(17:01):
because it's come from a placeof nāka, mahaki, nāka puno, um,
put te fikapuno, to trust inthat, to trust in yourself, but
to have, like-minded people towork around, to support you on
your journey. I- I'm- I'm reallygrateful for the people I you
(17:24):
know, like, I've managed tocreate networks here in the Bay
of Plenty with Mikaere and othertumuaki, and I value their
opinions, I value their feedback.I know that the support is there
should I need
it. And you need to know whothose people are.
(17:44):
You also need to have a reallygood grounding and support from
your whānau. From your whānau,to be able to step out of the
role, to just be you without thetumuaki hat on. To be able to be
the māmā, or the aunty, or thenanny, or the whoever you need
(18:06):
to be, but to be able to stepaway from a leadership role too.
I think, a kaupapa that standsout for me is, if you're going
into a tumuaki position then beready to serve. I learned that
quick and fast last year was, alot of people think that you
know, you're the I don't knowwhat a boss should feel like,
(18:28):
look like, but I feel like, if Ilook at who the boss were back
in the those leaders, thoseshakers, the movers, the doers,
they were servers. They servedtheir community. They served
their people. And when I look atthe role I carry, it's, it's a
role that I carry, you know,because it's to grow other
(18:54):
leaders into
positions,
So yeah, be prepared to serve.Serve your um, be prepared for
the challenges that you do needto know how to balance your
[speaks in foreign language]
(19:23):
So you meet all of those, it'slooking at, um,look at the
people who have paved the wayfor you, don't be like them, but
I was told, be better becausethose who are coming up and
above once I finish, I expectsomeone to be better than me.
Don't be like me, be better thanme. Do something different.
(19:48):
Kuida, Kuida, Okiwa-Kaadu
Mikaere (19:50):
Just to tautoko Marissa there, I think I have a simple
definition of leadership andthat's your ability to bring out
the best in others, rath thanshowing how good you are in a
setting and just that word serveis bang on, and. I guess just to
add to what Marissa was saidabout networking, the greatest
thing I did was move out of theregion, and up to Tamaki, and
(20:12):
the secondary principal lot upthere are a different beast in
itself, but just the networks Iwas able to create, just across
the board, and then down here inthe you can call on experts in
different just to bounce ideasso you don't get stuck in that
eco-chamber. And you know, bothMarissa and I both took
advantage of Te Akatea and theEvaluation Associates, you know,
(20:35):
both those, so any help that youcan get, same from the Ministry
with the advisors that they'vegot there, just lap that all up
and just be
Mārama (20:44):
Ngā mihi kia koutou. That was amazing. Thank you so
much and thank you queen of 30years.
Leanne (20:52):
For many years, there should be a tackle something,
aren'
Mārama (20:55):
You need a cake
Leanne (20:56):
Hey, look, I just want to finish off by saying, you
know, and Marissa mentioned thatwe need to acknowledge the
shoulders of those that we standon. And, you know, for me, I
know that my tupuna, dreamed ofus taking these positions of
leadership. They wanted us to dobetter. And I agree totally with
(21:17):
you Marissa about be better thanme, because I believe in that
too, because one day I'll havemoko. Those people who are
teaching my moko, they'd betterbe better than me. You know,
that's how I feel. I'm really, rstrong in that. And I guess at
the end of the day, my littlebit of advice for Māori
principals is to, you know, seekout that support. You know, seek
(21:42):
out the support of Te Akatea andyour local Māori networks,
because they were lifelines forme, and I don't think that
that's changed. They werelifelines. And we need those
spaces. They allow us to breathedifferently, lead with strength
and without apology. So, youknow, they are
critical organisations to belongto. So, you know, and and
(22:08):
supporting our non-Māoricolleagues to join MAC, you know,
the Māori AchievementCollaborative, so they get an
insight into how we, our te aoMāori world, you know. So, you
know, it goes both ways, we'vegot a responsibility to also
take, you know, to ensure thatour non-Māori colleagues are
(22:28):
given some support to understandour world too.
Mārama (22:32):
I'm going to be very sad when you have to step down
Leanne.
Leanne (22:36):
Yeah, I mean, I I absolutely feel the
responsibility as um, and thisis because I'm a systems leader,
the responsibility to make surethat those people that sit at
the tables of leadership, makinghuge decisions on either
advocating or policy shifts orwhatnot are given every little
(22:59):
bit of advice and guidance I cangive them from a wahine Māori
perspective, you know, and thenit's limited, you know, I mean,
I've grown over time, but stillnot to do, you know, i my eyes.
But, you know, we have aresponsibility to at least give
them an opportunity to learnfrom from us, you know, grow our
(23:21):
own selves and grow our own, yes,sure, but we have got, we, I
have a sense that I need to dothat as well
Mārama (23:30):
Thank you. Oh thank you so much you guys
Wow, I feel deeply grateful andmoved by the whakaaro our guests
have shared here today. Whatwe've heard here isn't just
about a story of leadership,it's a story of reclamation, of
(23:52):
standing tall in our identityand I think turning survival
into advocacy and reshaping thesystem from the inside out with
both aroha and fire.
We've talked about what thecourage it takes to wear moko
kauae or tā moko in publicspaces. And about how as Māori
leaders were often seen asrepresentatives whether we want
(24:13):
to or not. And yet instead ofshrinking into ourselves we've
heard about our guests, Marissa,Mikaere and Leanne, how they've
leaned into their whakapapa,their whānau and their kaupapa
to lead unapologetically asMāori. We've also heard a
really strong reminder thattumuaki Māori leadership isn't
about hierarchy, it's actuallyabout service. True mana comes
(24:36):
from growing others, beinggrounded in who you are and
having the networks and whānauto remind you that you are never
alone. And I think finally we'vebeen reminded that leadership is
intergenerational as Leanne said,this isn't about being the first,
it's about ensuring that we'renot the last and that those who
follow us will stand even taller.So all of you out there, all of
(25:01):
our new aspiring tumuaki, tēneite karanga - stand strong in who
you are, find your people, leadwith purpose and know that your
identity is not something tomanage, it's your greatest asset.
Kia ū, kia kaha, kia māia. Inthe next episode, I'm going to
(25:21):
be talking to Pasifikaprincipals about their
experiences as tumuaki. Heikonei
Kia ora and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new tumuaki in Aotearoa NewZealand. My name is Mārama
Stuart and back with me todayare Marissa Peters, tumuaki of
Tarawera High School in Kawerau,Mikaere October, tumuaki of
Trident High School in Whakatane,and Leanne Otene, former tumuaki
(00:28):
and current president of the NewZealand Principals Federation.
Thank you all for your precioustime today. In the last episode,
we were talking about beingauthentically Māori as tumuaki
and I was so glad that came upbecause because um, our
listeners won't know this butMarissa you have a beautiful
moko kauae. It's amazing thatnow, I know back in Leanne's day,
(00:51):
I don't think that would havebeen possible, would it Leanne?
Leanne (00:55):
Absolutely not, you know, back then even speaking te reo
in a professional setting was arisk, very risky, and cultural
safety wasn't something that wetalked about really and it
certainly was not something thatwas practised. You know I was
constantly trying to manage theperceptions to not seem too
(01:17):
Māori, you know, that that's ashocker to me now to think that
that's how I felt. To now seewahine Māori and, you know,
Marisa wearing the moko kauaeproudly in leadership spaces,
you know, standing tall and aswe've all said unapologetically,
it's really deeply emotional forme. You know that would have
(01:39):
been unimaginable in the 90s, Ican't even I can't even think
what they would you know, whatpeople would have said or done
if I had walked into my firstschool, you know, with a moko
kauae, you know, a moko kauae isa tohu and, you know, and in my
limited understanding, you know,it talks to our endurance and
(02:00):
our reclamation of leadership inour space, you know. It reminds
me just how far we've come andhow powerful we are when we lead
with authenticity, which issomething we've all brought
through in this conversation,you know, but you know, change
isn't just about, isn't just innumbers of our wahine, you know,
(02:23):
and the moko kauae, it's the theshift from assimilation to
authenticity
that's how I feel about it and,you know, we're no longer asking
to be included or or puttingourselves in boxes, you know,
this is what a principal willlook like, will sound like
because that's how I felt when Ifirst went in - what's a
(02:44):
principal, well they look likethis, they sound like this and
they do this - you know, we'rereshaping that table and we're
reshaping that from, you know,to be us, so, no, it would
definitely, I don't evenremember actually seeing anyone
with a moko kauae inprincipalship.
Mārama (03:04):
Do you think, Marissa, that your choice to reclaim this
precious and almost lost part ofour culture has affected you
today as a leader?
Marissa (03:13):
Um
I don't believe it has. And Ithink the reason for my moko
kauae was never trying toestablish my identity as being
Māori,more so it it wasactually part of a grieving
process for me I'd alwaysthought about getting a moko
(03:35):
kauae, and I actually lost my 10years ago and hence the move to
Kawerau to be closer to mytāne's whānau and to give our
tamariki the opportunity to growwith their grandparents. And
what actually happened was I'dgone to a couple of mokopapa and
I'd never seen anyone receivetheir moko kauae prior to and
(04:00):
sitting through a mokopapa, youyou start to realise the taha
wairua that goes with thekaupapa, and so discussions were
were had with my tāne and mywhānau,and I actually had a
conversation with my principalat the time, Helen Tuhoro, or
the former principal of TaraweraHigh School, and I said to her,
(04:23):
look Helen, I just want you tobe aware that I'm looking at
getting my kauae done because Iwanted to see what her reaction
would be to having a kaiako, ateacher, on-staff, who would
have a moko kauae. So this wasaround the time that moko kauae
was starting to become, it wasbecoming a thing. You know, you
(04:44):
were seeing all these mokopapahappening, so I asked her the
question and we sat and we had areally good discussion about it,
about my why, what were somethings that I thought might
happen after I get it done and Ishared with I was actually
scared about the backlash
(05:05):
and whether or not people wouldjudge me on having a moko kauae.
And that was years before Iactually got it done. So it
wasn't just say oh choice I'mgoing to get it done, it was
years of having kōrero aroundmy why, being comfortable with
(05:25):
knowing if I'm going to bequestioned, how will I answer
those questions because peopleare curious. And funnily enough,
after I got my kauai it wasn'tactually challenged by a
non-Māori, it wasn't actuallychallenged by a whānau member,
but more so by a tamaiti Māoriit threw but it also gave me an
(05:48):
opportunity to that for havingmoko kauae, and that can also be
associated to some form oftrauma.
I think for me in the sense ofthe effects for me as a leader,
no, not essentially, but I thinkit's helped me to to best
understand how people are, andhow people can perceive you, and
(06:12):
how you manage that. How youmanage yourself in challenging
situations.
Mārama (06:17):
That's amazing. You've also kind of spoken to, I think,
that common thing is that astumuaki Māori, our job isn't
just tumuaki. We are held up asa standard for all Māori
whether we are having a bad dayor not or whether we're just
there with our moko kauae in thesupermarket. You will always be
(06:38):
held up as, you know, oh well,she's a representative of all
tumuaki Māori whether she wantsto be or not. Have you ever
found that Mikaere where you'vebeen in a maybe a difficult
situation where you're held up?
Mikaere (06:52):
Yeah, it's interesting. I think the amount of times
people have been surprised thatI'm a tumuaki, you know, it's...
I find it quite funny,you know.And I guess um humbling in a
sense, you know? Because I carryquite a lot of tā moko And I'm
(07:12):
just having discussions aboutgetting my puhoro done, you know.
So, I think I'm up to about ahundred hours of tā moko across
my body. So, when I'm runningdown at touch, down at Rex
Morpeth, and I'm in a singletand shorts quite heavily, you
know, tā moko. But I havewhānau come up to me and just
say kia ora matua which you know,so that can be a real humbling
(07:34):
process. And I guess for otherswhere I'm normally in this shirt,
and suit, and I turn up to hui,and others people, you know, you
see people take a second look,or, you know, I Liam mentioned
about part of them paving theway us future leaders, and I
guess Marissa and I certainlyare examples of you know. But
still in a minority, one beingMāori, you know, Marissa,
(07:57):
obviously, being wahine, butalso our age. And so, in the
past, I'm not sure what theaverage age of a tumour-wike is
in Aotearoa, but I'm guessingit's into the 50s at least. So,
you know, for those of us whodon't possibly fit that
traditional you know, people arecurious about that. And I in my
(08:19):
early days, not as a tumuaki,but when I was a DP, I was a DP
quite young, I did have somepeople how I became a DP so
early, and I'll, I'll go far asfar as to say one person asked
if it was because I was Māoriand So, that was really
interesting, although after afew months, that person knew why
I was in the job, I think, but,you know, just again, those
(08:41):
stereotypes or you know, inpockets of our community, where
think Māori have advantagesover others, which all of us
here know that, you know, wewould question deeply. So, and
where comes from, but sometimesit's coming from a a place of
not knowing. But, you know, Iwas once told, you know, can
(09:02):
adults be ignorant or is thatjust reserved for children so
that that's an interestingquestion in itself?
Mārama (09:08):
Yeah, it It is. Yeah, I do enjoy playing the game,
whenever I'm in the office, andthey ask for the principal, a
I'm like, "Hi, it's me!"
Mikaere (09:18):
It's fantastic isn't it?
Mārama (09:20):
I know I have a little voice, but yes it's me. How
about you Leanne, you're kind ofthat next level to us. you're
down in Wellington with thosebig wigs
Leanne (09:31):
Well, you know, I was just about comment on the fact
that, you know, Marissa andMikaere and their age, you know,
and I'm looking at them going ohgod. Once upon a time I was the
youngest principal in NewZealand, believe it or not, 1995,
24 years old. So not only was IMāori, but I was also wahine
(09:52):
and I was young. And I hadn'tgone through the traditional
pathway of DP, AP, so that putme in a disadvantage. And that
was possibly the firstconversation I'd have with those,
you know, principals over theage of 60, up north, was, you
know, you shouldn't be aprincipal. You know, these are
(10:12):
my own colleagues saying this tome. You know,
young is also something that wehave to deal with. And you're
right, being Māori, beingwahine, just adds to that. you
know, I didn't set out to be asector leader, there's
absolutely, that that wasn't myintention. And, you know, I just
wanted to survive as a principal.And then survive as a Māori
(10:36):
principal, but, you know, overtime, survival turns into
advocacy, you know, I had TeAkatea very much. I became
involved regionally with AkaTokerau and nationally with Te
Akatea. And you then advocacyturns a transformation really,
you just want to make more of adifference. And, you know, my
(10:56):
junior has been one ofreclamation, of you know, my
identity, of my space, fightingeverything as I go along. And a
voice, y know.
There's definitely doubts, youknow, there's been doubts over
my career, where I've thought,you know, am I good enough? And,
you know, I'd look around theroom and I go, well, you know,
it takes some time for me torecognise why it was that I
(11:21):
didn't feel I was good enough.And it was really because I was
trying to prove myself. And Ithink that's one of the
strengths that we have as Māori,is that we are determined to be
the very best that we can be,because we're coming up across
people who expect differently,you know. We work harder, well,
(11:41):
I believe that we work a lotharder because we've got to
prove it. Others don't have toprove that. And so, you know,
there's definitely been griefand you talk about the trauma.
There's definitely been grieffor me in realising that much of
myself I've had to hide earlieron just to survive. To survive
(12:07):
and, you know, reclaiming myidentity over time and feeling
comfortable in the spaces that Inow stand in, has been part of
that healing, you know. And it'snever been about being the first.
It's always been about neverbeing the last. This is going to
(12:29):
be the last, you know. I leadtoday, not because of anything
that, anything other than thekaupapa. And the shared kaupapa
we have with our pākehacolleagues is that we want the
very best for every tamariki,every child, every tamariki in
our schools, that's what we'reafter. And of course, you know,
(12:51):
I don't park my identity atschool gate, you know, that's an
old saying. And I lead with it.And unapologetically lead with
it at the boardroom table withmy executive when I go into
rooms, you know. When I meet theminister, you know, I've had it,
she's had to get used to thefact that there's a key coming.
There's a hongi coming. You know,they just know now that Leanne's
(13:12):
going to do that. But that wasreal awkward for them, not for
me, but really awkward to startwith. And it's like how much do
I, how much do I put in of mykaupapa of the way I am into
those spaces that are really,really Eurocentric, and then I
just think to heck with it. I'mjust going to do me.
(13:36):
That's what I do, and you knowum I guess I've learned to
navigate with both aroha andfire. You know, aroha with my
colleagues that my non Māoricolleagues that find that
challenging to deal with te aoMāori. So, you know, I lead
with some aroha, I've learnedhow to push, but not push too
(13:57):
hard. You know, I'm really proudof the fact that the entire NZPF
executive are a MAC Cluster,Māori Achievement Collective.
You know, I brought thatstraight in when I came in here
because I needed them tounderstand why it is I am and
how I work and how I lead. It'sincredibly important for me. You
(14:17):
know, previous presidents hadhad their initial first meeting
at their school. I took themhome to Herekino, to my humble,
humble marae, you know. I wantedthem to know where I came from.
And you know, so we as Māori,we need to lead with aroha, we
need to also show thatwhanauungatanga and extend it to
(14:40):
our pākeha colleagues. you know,but at the same time I'm really
firm, firm about my values andnot shrinking it to fit them.
Mārama (14:48):
Yeah
Leanne (14:49):
You know, so, and then that fire. You know, I said,
there's aroha and there's alsofire. know, I, fire to challenge
and justice, you know.I'mprobably one of those justice
fighters and and, but the arohato bring the people with me, so,
you we may walk in two worldsand I had done my entire career,
(15:10):
but instead of choosing one,I've learned to honour them both
and be strong in both of them.And I think that it's, it's
important that we acknowledgethat we actually have an asset
in being Māori, that's an asseton top of being you know,
working to be a great principaland a great leader in our
(15:32):
communities. We have anadditional asset and that is
being Māori.
Mārama (15:37):
Yes , yeah, you're standing tall, confident,
self-assured as tumuaki Māori.Thinking back to our target
audience, our for our beginningprincipals, Mikaere and Marissa,
what do you think we need to door what advice would you give
them on starting their journey?Because it's pretty fresh for
(15:58):
you guys, on carving out thatstrong steps for our future, for
more tumuaki or themselves ontheir career, what would you
suggest for them to do, to getthat, be able to stand tall and
confident and self-assured as toworking Māori?
Marissa (16:15):
Oh, there's a few things in the end and I think,
Leanne, you knocked it on theit's being able to lead with
aroha with knowing, you do haveto make those tough decisions,
you do have to have that fire inyour belly to be able to to, you
know, to, to, to, to kaha, tokaha e to Singha Mahi. But you,
(16:37):
you talked about bringing ithome. And so for me, it's re
grounding yourself, re groundingyourself with who you are going
back to the Hokkainga kia puruyakuaia ngahoha nafarimātia. Um,
to have those people surroundyou who you can bounce off and
you appreciate their opinion,whether or not you agree with it,
(17:01):
because it's come from a placeof nāka, mahaki, nāka puno, um,
put te fikapuno, to trust inthat, to trust in yourself, but
to have, like-minded people towork around, to support you on
your journey. I- I'm- I'm reallygrateful for the people I you
(17:24):
know, like, I've managed tocreate networks here in the Bay
of Plenty with Mikaere and othertumuaki, and I value their
opinions, I value their feedback.I know that the support is there
should I need
it. And you need to know whothose people are.
(17:44):
You also need to have a reallygood grounding and support from
your whānau. From your whānau,to be able to step out of the
role, to just be you without thetumuaki hat on. To be able to be
the māmā, or the aunty, or thenanny, or the whoever you need
(18:06):
to be, but to be able to stepaway from a leadership role too.
I think, a kaupapa that standsout for me is, if you're going
into a tumuaki position then beready to serve. I learned that
quick and fast last year was, alot of people think that you
know, you're the I don't knowwhat a boss should feel like,
(18:28):
look like, but I feel like, if Ilook at who the boss were back
in the those leaders, thoseshakers, the movers, the doers,
they were servers. They servedtheir community. They served
their people. And when I look atthe role I carry, it's, it's a
role that I carry, you know,because it's to grow other
(18:54):
leaders into
positions,
So yeah, be prepared to serve.Serve your um, be prepared for
the challenges that you do needto know how to balance your
[speaks in foreign language]
(19:23):
So you meet all of those, it'slooking at, um,look at the
people who have paved the wayfor you, don't be like them, but
I was told, be better becausethose who are coming up and
above once I finish, I expectsomeone to be better than me.
Don't be like me, be better thanme. Do something different.
(19:48):
Kuida, Kuida, Okiwa-Kaadu
Mikaere (19:50):
Just to tautoko Marissa there, I think I have a simple
definition of leadership andthat's your ability to bring out
the best in others, rath thanshowing how good you are in a
setting and just that word serveis bang on, and. I guess just to
add to what Marissa was saidabout networking, the greatest
thing I did was move out of theregion, and up to Tamaki, and
(20:12):
the secondary principal lot upthere are a different beast in
itself, but just the networks Iwas able to create, just across
the board, and then down here inthe you can call on experts in
different just to bounce ideasso you don't get stuck in that
eco-chamber. And you know, bothMarissa and I both took
advantage of Te Akatea and theEvaluation Associates, you know,
(20:35):
both those, so any help that youcan get, same from the Ministry
with the advisors that they'vegot there, just lap that all up
and just be
Mārama (20:44):
Ngā mihi kia koutou. That was amazing. Thank you so
much and thank you queen of 30years.
Leanne (20:52):
For many years, there should be a tackle something,
aren'
Mārama (20:55):
You need a cake
Leanne (20:56):
Hey, look, I just want to finish off by saying, you
know, and Marissa mentioned thatwe need to acknowledge the
shoulders of those that we standon. And, you know, for me, I
know that my tupuna, dreamed ofus taking these positions of
leadership. They wanted us to dobetter. And I agree totally with
(21:17):
you Marissa about be better thanme, because I believe in that
too, because one day I'll havemoko. Those people who are
teaching my moko, they'd betterbe better than me. You know,
that's how I feel. I'm really, rstrong in that. And I guess at
the end of the day, my littlebit of advice for Māori
principals is to, you know, seekout that support. You know, seek
(21:42):
out the support of Te Akatea andyour local Māori networks,
because they were lifelines forme, and I don't think that
that's changed. They werelifelines. And we need those
spaces. They allow us to breathedifferently, lead with strength
and without apology. So, youknow, they are
critical organisations to belongto. So, you know, and and
(22:08):
supporting our non-Māoricolleagues to join MAC, you know,
the Māori AchievementCollaborative, so they get an
insight into how we, our te aoMāori world, you know. So, you
know, it goes both ways, we'vegot a responsibility to also
take, you know, to ensure thatour non-Māori colleagues are
(22:28):
given some support to understandour world too.
Mārama (22:32):
I'm going to be very sad when you have to step down
Leanne.
Leanne (22:36):
Yeah, I mean, I I absolutely feel the
responsibility as um, and thisis because I'm a systems leader,
the responsibility to make surethat those people that sit at
the tables of leadership, makinghuge decisions on either
advocating or policy shifts orwhatnot are given every little
(22:59):
bit of advice and guidance I cangive them from a wahine Māori
perspective, you know, and thenit's limited, you know, I mean,
I've grown over time, but stillnot to do, you know, i my eyes.
But, you know, we have aresponsibility to at least give
them an opportunity to learnfrom from us, you know, grow our
(23:21):
own selves and grow our own, yes,sure, but we have got, we, I
have a sense that I need to dothat as well
Mārama (23:30):
Thank you. Oh thank you so much you guys
Wow, I feel deeply grateful andmoved by the whakaaro our guests
have shared here today. Whatwe've heard here isn't just
about a story of leadership,it's a story of reclamation, of
(23:52):
standing tall in our identityand I think turning survival
into advocacy and reshaping thesystem from the inside out with
both aroha and fire.
We've talked about what thecourage it takes to wear moko
kauae or tā moko in publicspaces. And about how as Māori
leaders were often seen asrepresentatives whether we want
(24:13):
to or not. And yet instead ofshrinking into ourselves we've
heard about our guests, Marissa,Mikaere and Leanne, how they've
leaned into their whakapapa,their whānau and their kaupapa
to lead unapologetically asMāori. We've also heard a
really strong reminder thattumuaki Māori leadership isn't
about hierarchy, it's actuallyabout service. True mana comes
(24:36):
from growing others, beinggrounded in who you are and
having the networks and whānauto remind you that you are never
alone. And I think finally we'vebeen reminded that leadership is
intergenerational as Leanne said,this isn't about being the first,
it's about ensuring that we'renot the last and that those who
follow us will stand even taller.So all of you out there, all of
(25:01):
our new aspiring tumuaki, tēneite karanga - stand strong in who
you are, find your people, leadwith purpose and know that your
identity is not something tomanage, it's your greatest asset.
Kia ū, kia kaha, kia māia. Inthe next episode, I'm going to
(25:21):
be talking to Pasifikaprincipals about their
experiences as tumuaki. Heikonei
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