July 7, 2025 • 29 mins
In this episode, we’re talking with two Pasifika principals and a non-Pasifika tumuaki leading a school with a high Pasikifa population about leading authentically, and things you can do to make sure your Pasifika ākonga feel seen and supported, along with the tools available to school yourself in the Pasifika realm.
Mārama’s guests are:
- Jenny Bernard, principal of Otahuhu Primary School, Auckland
- Karl Vasau, principal of Rowandale School in Manurewa, Auckland
- Graeme Norman, principal of Te Kōmanawa Rowley School, Christchurch.
This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education as part of Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals.
You can learn more by accessing Te Ara Tīmatanga mō ngā Tumuaki - The Beginning Pathway for Principals e-learning modules on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz
The New Zealand Pasifika Principals’ Association (NZPPA) has its own podcast – search it up on your favourite platform.
Episode themes:
- What it was like for Jenny and Karl as Pasifika ākonga in New Zealand.
- Finding your identity as Pasifika.
- The importance of names.
- Leading as non-Pasifika, ways you can educate yourself on the culture and the community you’re in, and available PD to help you.
- The importance of building up those around you as leaders, of letting people’s expertise and knowledge shine in your school.
Additional information
NZPPA - https://www.nzppa.co.nz/
Tautai o le Moana - https://www.tolm.co.nz/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mārama (00:08):
Kia ora and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new tumuaki in Aotearoa NewZealand. My name is Mārama
Stewart and today I have threeamazing principals with me, two
Pasifika tumuaki, and oneleading a school with a large
Pasifika population. They'regoing to tell me about their
experiences give some greatadvice about leading within the
(00:30):
Pasifika realm. Mōrena koutou.Thank you very much for joining
me on the podcast this morning.Graeme, would you like to start
by introducing yourself?
Graeme (00:40):
Kia ora, I'm Graeme Norman, tumuaki of Te Kōmanawa
Rowley School here inChristchurch. Been here five
years. I'm very proud to be theprincipal of the school. We are
high Maōri Pasifika. Highest inChristchurch, in the South
Island, actually, for MaōriPasifika.
Mārama (00:56):
Mōrena Jenny, would you like carry on?
Jenny (01:00):
Mōrena, my name is Jenny Bernard, I am the current
principal of Otahuhu PrimarySchool, a large multi-cultural
school in the middle of SouthAuckland. I have been a
principal for 20 years and thisis my third principalship.
Mārama (01:15):
Thank you, and welcome Karl, would you like to
introduce yourself too.
Karl (01:19):
Fakaalofa lahi atu everybody. Karl Vasau, principal
of Rowandale School in Manurewa,been a principal for 19 years,
New Zealand-born, Nuiean, Samoan,Tongan, and then all of the
European nations of the world
Mārama (01:37):
Thank you. > Kia ora, Jenny And Karl? So a lot of the
themes that I have been talkingto with our other tumuaki on my
section of the podcast has been,what has it been for them as
ākonga Maōri going throughschool? I was wondering what it
was like for you two, maybe,Jenny, if you'd like to start,
(01:57):
what was it like for you to be aPasifika ākonga within a New
Zealand school?
Jenny (02:02):
Talofa everyone.
I suppose my parents came fromSamoa in the 1950s, and they met
here and they wanted to settlehere in New Zealand and when
they made that decision tosettle here, they also made that
decision to be more NewZealand-ified. So when they had
(02:25):
their children, we had eight inour family, big Catholic family,
but they decided to instill theEuropean way. So they never
taught us the language, they didteach us the Samoan values but
we never had the language, sowhen we were growing up all my
(02:46):
siblings kind of felt like wewere palagi but obviously we
weren't because we were dark. Wewent to a very European school,
Ellerslie Primary, and in myclass, there might have been one
or two, that were the samecolour as me, and then when I
moved on to secondary school wewent on to Epsom Girls Grammar,
and it was much the same, wherethere was only one or two
(03:09):
Pasifika people there, so wedidn't really realise we were
Pasifika, if you know what Imean, so I kind of felt like I
was sitting in two worlds but Ididn't really know enough around
my Samoan side. Even my parentswould talk to each other in
English, they didn't even speakSamoan to each other, obviously
(03:31):
they were fluent speakers butwould only speak Samoan
obviously when they were aroundthe relatives, so it took me a
while to really understand who Iwas as a
Pasifika person and thathonestly probably never happened
for me until I don't know 10years ago when I became a
(03:52):
principal and I started tosurround myself around Pasifika
people. And groups like NewZealand Pasifika Principals
where Karl he was veryinstrumental in getting that
going and how that kind of gotlike-minded people together for
us to kind of talk about thingsfrom a Pasifika lens, and also
(04:16):
Tautai o le Moana and yes I'mactually the chairperson of that
group but when I first got on tothat group I really didn't know
who I was, and I feel thatjoining that initiative helped
me to understand that I was aSamoan and what that actually
meant and I think when Iobviously got involved with
Tautai o le Moana that kind ofstrengthened what NZPPA had
(04:39):
already started.
Mārama (04:40):
Wonderful. Karl, do you want to talk a little bit about
your experience as a Pasifikaākonga at school?
Karl (04:47):
I think like all new cultures that come to New
Zealand, the first thing you dowhen you get here is you
surround yourself with familiarpeople, familiar smells,
familiar sounds, so the Pasifikapeople weren't any different. We
grew up in Grey Lynn so majorityof Pacific people when I was
young were living in the centralcity and so our churches were
there, our sports clubs werethere, we all went to the
(05:10):
similar schools. Jenny was oneof those - some moved out
different ways you know to getaway from that - so it starts in
that story for Pacific migrationto New Zealand. And so we played
the same sports and that's wherewe kind of felt like we were
just normal. It wasn't reallyuntil school when people started
talking about differences thatyou saw it or you had a friend
(05:32):
that didn't really look like you,or lived somewhere different, or
had different jokes. And Ireally didn't know that I was
any different from anyone else.Our language, my mother's fluent
in Samoan, my father's fluent inNuiean, but they never spoke to
us. We don't really even knowwe're even different until we
find cousins that actually speakour language, and we didn't. So
(05:53):
as a child, I had some keyPasifika teachers. I went to a
school that Jenny taught at. Andthere were key Pasifika teachers
that were at my school that Ican still remember today. Tosetu
Hepa. Mr. Apa, these people wereintegral, even Jenny herself,
who were key in kind of helpingme grow into the leader that I
(06:16):
am today.
Mārama (06:18):
That's wonderful. So you felt seen as a child as
yourself when you were inprimary school with those
teachers?
Karl (06:25):
We were not treated differently. We were just Grey
Lynn students. And it wasn'tuntil people point out that you
actually are Pasifika orPolynesian - my mother and
father grew up in the Dawn Raidera. But it was never affected
by then because of Niueans orcertain cultures weren't
targeted. It was certaincultures that were targeted,
(06:50):
predominantly Samoan. But whenyour mother's name is April
Ngaire Agnes O'Dwyer, they don'tcome knocking on your door.
Jenny (06:57):
I think- Karl he was just talking about names it's like me
I have obviously a European nameso people with Polynesian names
are treated differently and evenwhen visiting Samoa you visit
Samoa as a palagi not as aSamoan when I have been there,
because you know from getting onthe buses you see that if you're
(07:21):
if you're a palagi you get tohave a chair, if you're not you
sit with four other people onyour lap you know. So names they
have a big you know big impacton how people look at you Yeah,
very big impact. But you know,times are changing. That's the
thing, times are changing. And Imean, Karl does this whole big,
um, PD around names and theimportance of your name and
(07:45):
really honouring where your namecomes from eh.
Mārama (07:48):
Yeah, names are important. We shared a little
bit previously about howsometimes standing up for your
name and asking for the rightfor your name to be pronounced
properly, can actually be usedas a way to persecute you. My
auntie, she was kicked out ofclass in the 60s and '70s for
(08:09):
asking for her name topronounced correctly. I was
kicked out in the '80s. Yeah, isit the same, you think, for
Pasifika students?
Karl (08:17):
What saddens me is that people hear the way in which
your name is pronounced, andthey accept that as the right
way. When your name ispronounced properly using the
proper vowel sounds, somechildren even are embarrassed of
their name because it sounds somuch different. So they're used
to the way in which people sayit. For example, one of those
(08:39):
ones is one of my friends usedto be called Ioane. And he
accepted that he was calledIoane. But when you say it
properly in Samoan, it is Ioane.And so when people would call
him Ioane, he kind of reacted ina way that was like, "Ah, don't
worry, don't cause trouble. Juststay there." Those are the
things that we need to be waryof. How children want to be
(09:03):
referred. It's important forthem to know how to say their
name, their own name, properlyfirst.
Mārama (09:10):
Graeme, you are a non-Pasifika tumuaki leading
Rowley School, and, which has avery high Pasifika population
and ākonga Māori. Can you tellme a bit about what it was like
at Rowley when you first arrived?And what changes did you feel
like you needed to make, and why?
Graeme (09:27):
I arrived in mid-2020 through the COVID lockdowns,
which was an interesting time toarrive. But the school was in
quite a state of disarray at thepoint. The roll had dropped
below a hundred. There was nopride in the school. There was
nothing around. There was just aplace that some kids had to go
(09:48):
to because they couldn't getinto another school, basically.
So, we needed to change thataround and make the school the
place of choice for ourcommunity. So, we really focused
in on our Māori Pasifika,because we were 40% Māori, 40%
Pasifika. And I needed to dothat. To do that, I knew I
(10:08):
needed to connect to theirculture and community.So , their
culture, we really worked onaround Māori Pasifika culture,
and then community. Being proudof being coming from Rowley
School and from the Rowley areaof Christchurch. So yeah, we
looked at that and part of thatjourney for me has been with the
(10:32):
Tautai o le Moana, and gettingon to that program, and helping
me, especially around thePasifika lens
Mārama (10:41):
That's That's wonderful. Now we've, our podcast targeted
to our new tumuaki, and topossible aspiring principals.
Could you tell me a bit aboutjoining Tautai o le Moana?
Graeme (10:54):
Tautai o le Moana is a program for principals
to come on and learn aboutPasifika. We looked at Tapasā,
we looked at all sorts of things,done a lot of work down with
Pasifika principals, and gettinga good understanding of what it
is to be Pasifika. I think thebiggest part of it from that
(11:19):
I've taken out of that journey.And the beauty with the Tautai
program, I believe, is that itis very well set to everybody's
individual needs. And as apākeha coming in on it, it was
very well, I was just part ofthe program. And I believed it
(11:39):
was important because of thehigh Pasifika, and I needed to
learn it. So, I was open, andthey've just embraced me and
taken me under their wings, andhelped me grow in my knowledge
and understanding aroundPasifika. I think some of the
best PD that we've actually hadfrom it is they do trips over to
(12:00):
the islands, and I went to theCook Islands, to Samoa, and this
year, I'm going to Tonga. Sogoing to visit the islands and
seeing where our pupils comefrom has been some of the best
PD that I've done in my career
Mārama (12:16):
Wonderful. It's a theme that has gone across most of the
podcasts that I've been doing,that the strength and the
child's identity and being ableto thrive in an environment
where they can be themselvesreally sets them on a journey
towards success. How do you likewith the many different Pasifika
(12:37):
nations - Samoa, Tonga, Fiji,how do you help them feel like
they to their own individualspaces as well
Graeme (12:46):
I think very strategic and how I employ people. So when
our children come in, they cansee themselves in the school. So,
So I've got a number of LSAs andthat are leaders. that are of
Pasifika origin. And they havebeen a great source for me,
because I've always got someoneto talk to. So, a good example
(13:10):
is if I'm talking with parents,I will get, if it's a Samoan, I
will bring one of the LSAs inwith me, so they can interpret.
And we can speak in gaganaSamoan and that helps them to
grow, and it gives the parentsthe confidence in what we're
saying to them as well. So,having the experts, if you like,
(13:31):
and sitting alongside me hasreally helped me.
Mārama (13:35):
That must really help build a really significant
strong sense of community
around more than just the child -perhaps the whole whānau if
they are moving over for work.
Graeme (13:45):
It really does. It helps that, it strengthens it. They
then realise that we respecttheir culture and it's not just,
oh, doing this to make it. Theysee we're here, we want to
understand them, understandwhat's happening, and we have
the people around who cancommunicate with them. And the
(14:06):
communication is the biggestpart of our job with the whānau,
with anybody. So, if we cancommunicate with our whānau,
they are going to bring thechildren to school.
Mārama (14:17):
That's wonderful. So what would your advice be for
young pākeha principal who'scoming a school with high
percentage ākonga, what wheredo they start, what do they need
to do?
Graeme (14:29):
I think the Tautai programme is a great place to
start and they can put somesupports around you really fast
but getting to know yourcommunity, getting to know the
key people in your communityhelps. There's a gentleman that
I met on the first day here, andthey called him the Mayor of
(14:50):
Rowley. And so I got to know him,I went deliberately sought him
out. He's Cook Island Maōri andhe was able then to introduce me
to the key leaders. And he said,"These are the key pastors that
you need to meet, " so he tookme and introduced me. So I think
the key thing is finding the keypeople in your community because
(15:11):
you're new, you don't, I didn'tknow anybody here. So I needed
to quickly find people and thenget that growing because for me
it was around the community. Ineeded to understand the
community. So finding the keypeople that can introduce you is
where you go, I believe rightfrom the start.
Mārama (15:32):
Well, you built your community and grounded yourself
so that you could build that forothers, really.
Graeme (15:36):
Yeah, and it took a little bit, but we've done it
where now, like five years ago,we were at a hundred pupils,
we're at 230. So the communityhave brought back in and they're
coming into the school.Yesterday there was a big post
on one of our local communityFacebook pages. And a parent had
(15:57):
commented, "Oh, you need to sendyour kids to Rowley" because his
mum was asking a school, andthey said because they respect
everybody's culture. And for me,thatwas, we've done our job or
we're doing our job, not done it,we're doing it because we need
to keep going.
Mārama (16:13):
Congratulations, Graeme. That's amazing
Graeme (16:15):
Thank you
Mārama (16:16):
And Karl?
Karl (16:17):
I think what our schools need are the best principal, and
it could be, you know, you couldbe white yellow pink orange blue,
who cares? The community needsthe best principal and first and
foremost, wh that principalneeds is a support structure
around them. People advisingthem
appropriately. We heard Graemetalking about, you know, finding
(16:42):
out who the mayor of Rowley wasand so it's finding those key
people to open the doors for you.Not to come in and straight away,
you know, start acting likeyou've got all this sussed.
Listening, sitting down, talking,engaging with, but it's vital.
So when I started principalship,there were a few key principals
(17:04):
that I would refer to forsupport. Now we've created a
network for young Pasifikaprincipals who start in the job,
you know, the New ZealandPasifika Principals Association,
founded in 2007, where peoplecan feel safe. What's also
important is for young and newprincipals to associate
(17:24):
themselves with their localprincipal networks and principal
associations. It is there thatyou find people that have been
in the, in the game for so longhave little secrets. It's not
about copying each other orbecoming little mini-mes, but
it's about feeling safe, toshare, to expose your weaknesses,
(17:46):
but you've got to find thatspace. Bu you must, principals,
you must be critical that thefeedback or the information you
are getting from those people isthe right stuff. So you can't
just be listening to yourprevious principal and then
everything that they say isright, seek others as well and
(18:06):
experts, would you agree Jen?
Jenny (18:08):
Yeah, just, just, just adding on to what Karl said, um,
I, um, one of my DPs has justwon a principals position. um,
Sa, um, European. And one of thethings that I've said to um, is
that you need to build a village.You need to know that you're not
alone. And you need to surroundyourself trusted mentors that
(18:29):
are going to work alongside you.And also fellow leaders, other
principals, people that havebeen in the game for a long time,
so that you can understand, youknow, the journey that you're
going to go on. And, and, toremind you sometimes the the
road does get hard, but thereare people there that are going
to support you along the wholeway. And, you know, going into
(18:52):
principalship is not the, I, Iremember when I first won my
principalship, and I sat in theoffice and I thought, well, what
do I do and, um, it wasn't untilsomething kind uh, difficu
happened at school that I reallyhad to put on my principal's hat
and say, yeah, right now I'vegot to act and start making some
decisions. But principalship -build a village. Build those
(19:14):
people around you that are goingto support you, that are going
to help you. They're going to begood mentors that are going to
give you good advice, so thatyou know you're not walking this
path alone. I think that'sreally important.
Graeme (19:25):
Yeah, just reinforcing that, that there are a lot of
people that will support andhelp you. I've spoken with a
couple of principals aboutjoining the Tautai program and
they think it's for Pasifikaonly. And it's no, it's for
leaders of Pasifika children.And so it's get in there, it's
(19:48):
like I keep saying, it's thebest PD I've had and the people
just wrapped around me and it'shelped me. It helps me too
because when we've held a coupleof events down here for Tautai,
the parents they see that. Andthey see the Pasifika whānau
coming in and see that we'vewelcomed them. So our Pasifika
(20:09):
whānau go, "Oh, we do respectit, we understand it. " And so
also with it, part of beingthrough the Tautai, I've been on
the New Zealand PasifikaPrincipals Association as well
for the last five years. That'svaluable PD too and a valuable
kaumatuaship that comes withthat, and that's continuing to
(20:30):
grow, we're heading towards ahundred, aren't we Karl, members
there and so that's a great baseto support and help with
everything we do. And doing itis supporting our children.
Karl (20:44):
It also... You're not the font of all knowledge. You're
not, you're not, you know,myself and Jenny would agree,
there were moments when we firstgot our first principalship and
then we're like, yeah, we're thebombs, you will be exposed, you
will be found lacking if you actlike that. Empower others, put
(21:05):
others first, lead from the back,server leadership is really,
really important. You don't needto have all the answers. If I'm
playing rugby and there's a hugegroup of people in front of me,
and you're a big guy or a biglady, you know, you' running up
straight, but if you're not fast,you're going to pass it to
someone who's faster. So useyour team, like a team, bring
(21:26):
that kind of, that sports kindof analogy into your
principalship. So I'vesurrounded myself with many,
many, many leaders that are muchbetter than me when it comes to
a lot of running a school. Ihave my skills, I stay in my
lane, and I allow them to lead.So, you know, when it comes to
(21:48):
curriculum knowledge, I am not,I know enough, but I'm not an
expert. That's why one of my DPsis an absolute expert, goes to
bed dreaming about thecurriculum and others are good
behavior management, others aregood at assessment, and so
finding those people in yourstaff and empowering them will
(22:09):
help your principalship. And
Jenny (22:10):
percent 100 percent of what Karl's saying, you surround
yourself with the people thathave the expertise in the
different fields because as aprincipal, you can't have the
expertise in everything, but youcan oversee everything. Yo know
what's going on, but you're,you're getting those people
there that, that are the expertsand that can do the leading. But
you know, I've said to my DPwho's just won this role, that
(22:33):
as a Pasifika person, she needsto make sure she grounds herself
in the leadership values ofrespect, building those
relationships, understandingcommunity and also service. That
needs to be a priority for herand, always sort of, you know,
if you're not sure, take time.And I mean, Karl and I have been
(22:56):
principals for a long time, butthere's still things that come
our way that we've never seen,and we have to take a step back
and think, okay, well, how am Igoing to, how am I going to
handle this one? Because youthink you'd know everything by
now, but you don't, eh Karl,there's always something that's
coming up.
Karl (23:13):
You know, it surprises me with the Tautai o le Moana
programme. They, a lot of theprincipals who are non-Pasifika,
the Tautai o le Moana program,builds your leadership
capability in a Pacific realm.And so they come along,
expecting me to put a littletablet in their mouth and then
overnight, they turn into aTongan the next day or they turn
and say, but they surprise mewith how much they challenge me
(23:38):
with how I see the world. ThePasifika program, the Tautai o
le Moana programme, wantsprincipals to just be you and be
a powerful you, understand whoyou are in any realm will make
your ability to connect withothers ten times. So new
principal, non-Pasifika, goinginto a large Pasifika school,
(24:00):
first advice, understand who youare, first and foremost. Be
strong and understand yourbeliefs, understand tangata
whenua, and Te Tiritipartnership. U that realm and
how it links through, then buildthese bridges about how do I
then understand this community.A little bit of advice for young
(24:23):
principals, you don't need tochange. So when we see Graeme,
he didn't change. Graheme isalways being Graeme, but inside
he has these values andunderstandings and behaviours
that sometimes we look at, whilethose are real strong values
that link to my values as aPasifika.
Mārama (24:40):
That's wonderful. Now a very strong theme that is run
across all of our podcasts isthat the strength of one's
identity really helps us tobuild identity within our
ākonga, within our staff. Butalso it has given them the
strength to perhaps challenge asystem, the education system,
(25:02):
which can actually throw uphurdles now and again. Do you
feel like your strength in youridentity has helped you
challenge our system?
Jenny (25:10):
Yeah, if you know your identity, you'll challenge
something that you don't thinkis right. and I must say, I, I
commend Karl because he's reallygood at doing that kind of stuff.
I'm kind of the silent person,person behind the, behind the
scenes. But, you know, if youare strong in who you are and
what you believe in, you willhave a voice and you will say
when things aren't right. And,you know, I always believe I am
(25:34):
a speaker for my kids at theschool. And if I don't think
things are right for them, thenI will speak up for them, you
know.
Mārama (25:40):
Jenny, what are your hopes for the next generation of
Pasifika leaders in education?
Jenny (25:45):
Oh, I hope that we grow more Pasifika leaders, and
obviously NZPPA, are a goodbackbone for supporting Pasifika
leaders. We need to really sortof grow our DPs so they're going
into leadership into our, intoour schools and being Um, but as
I say, they just need to bestrong in their you know, build
that village that they need tobe able to be strong leaders,
(26:09):
get the right people around them,um, get the right support.
because we need Pasifika lookhow many Pasifika children we
have in New Zealand, you know,we have a lot. And, um, the
amount of perhaps Europeanleaders, we have to Pasifika
leaders is not marrying upconsidering most of our children
are Pasifika. But it would bereally nice to see, more of them
(26:29):
grow into, or want to be inthose positions, and take the
next step.
Mārama (26:34):
Thank you. Karl would you like to add to that? What
would you like for our nextgeneration of Pasifika leaders?
Karl (26:41):
I think the reason why NZPPA, NZPF, and also the
Ministry of Education, workedtogether to set up Tautai o le
Moana, which is equivalent tothe Māori Achievement
Collaboratives, was to ensurethat we boost the capability of
non-Pasifika principals inPasifika realms. The reality is
(27:03):
that we will never grow to hugenumbers of principals. If some
of our Pasifika young peoplebecome principals, well done.
What we need to do is look atthe critical mass of teachers
and to build their capability,grow them as good leaders so
that they come through and it'snot a matter of large number of
(27:24):
Pasifika, let's get a Pasifikaprincipal. Large amount of
Pasifika - let's get the bestprincipal. Are there more
Pasifika principals now thanwhen I first started? Absolutely,
there are much more now. Willthere be more? Yes, I believe so,
but what we need is the Tautai ole Moana programme.
Mārama (27:44):
Thank you so much koutou for joining me today. I
really appreciate the kōreroand it's great to hear that many
of the themes that our Pasifikaprincipals are reflected in our
tumuaki Māori as well. And it'sgreat that we have that
partnership together and we worktogether for what's best for our
ākonga.
Jenny (28:05):
Thank you
Mārama (28:06):
Wow, we've come to the end. Thank you so much to
everyone who have walked with usthrough this part of the
Principals podcast series.Whether you've been listening
from the start or dropped inalong the way, you've been part
of something special. Acrossthese episodes, we've heard
about the tension of leading inspaces not built for us, the
(28:26):
strength it takes to be visible,and the deep joy of finding your
turangawaewae as tumuaki Māoriand Pasifika principals. We've
heard that authenticity isresistance, that aroha can walk
with fire, and that ourleadership is not a position,
it's a service to our people.We've also been reminded that
we're not alone. We walk in thefootsteps of our tīpuna, and we
(28:50):
stand shoulder to shoulder witheach other. To our new tumuaki,
you belong here. Your voice isneeded, and your culture is not
something to hide, it is thewairua that will guide you
through. Thanks again forlistening. Eleisha will be back
with you for the next season,but I'll leave you with this
whakatoki. Mā mua ka kite amuri, mā muri ka ora a mua.
(29:16):
Those who lead give sight tothose who follow, and those who
follow give life to those wholead. Kia kaha, kia māia, kia
manawanui. Ka kita ano i te ara.
Kia ora and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for new tumuaki in Aotearoa NewZealand. My name is Mārama
Stewart and today I have threeamazing principals with me, two
Pasifika tumuaki, and oneleading a school with a large
Pasifika population. They'regoing to tell me about their
experiences give some greatadvice about leading within the
(00:30):
Pasifika realm. Mōrena koutou.Thank you very much for joining
me on the podcast this morning.Graeme, would you like to start
by introducing yourself?
Graeme (00:40):
Kia ora, I'm Graeme Norman, tumuaki of Te Kōmanawa
Rowley School here inChristchurch. Been here five
years. I'm very proud to be theprincipal of the school. We are
high Maōri Pasifika. Highest inChristchurch, in the South
Island, actually, for MaōriPasifika.
Mārama (00:56):
Mōrena Jenny, would you like carry on?
Jenny (01:00):
Mōrena, my name is Jenny Bernard, I am the current
principal of Otahuhu PrimarySchool, a large multi-cultural
school in the middle of SouthAuckland. I have been a
principal for 20 years and thisis my third principalship.
Mārama (01:15):
Thank you, and welcome Karl, would you like to
introduce yourself too.
Karl (01:19):
Fakaalofa lahi atu everybody. Karl Vasau, principal
of Rowandale School in Manurewa,been a principal for 19 years,
New Zealand-born, Nuiean, Samoan,Tongan, and then all of the
European nations of the world
Mārama (01:37):
Thank you. > Kia ora, Jenny And Karl? So a lot of the
themes that I have been talkingto with our other tumuaki on my
section of the podcast has been,what has it been for them as
ākonga Maōri going throughschool? I was wondering what it
was like for you two, maybe,Jenny, if you'd like to start,
(01:57):
what was it like for you to be aPasifika ākonga within a New
Zealand school?
Jenny (02:02):
Talofa everyone.
I suppose my parents came fromSamoa in the 1950s, and they met
here and they wanted to settlehere in New Zealand and when
they made that decision tosettle here, they also made that
decision to be more NewZealand-ified. So when they had
(02:25):
their children, we had eight inour family, big Catholic family,
but they decided to instill theEuropean way. So they never
taught us the language, they didteach us the Samoan values but
we never had the language, sowhen we were growing up all my
(02:46):
siblings kind of felt like wewere palagi but obviously we
weren't because we were dark. Wewent to a very European school,
Ellerslie Primary, and in myclass, there might have been one
or two, that were the samecolour as me, and then when I
moved on to secondary school wewent on to Epsom Girls Grammar,
and it was much the same, wherethere was only one or two
(03:09):
Pasifika people there, so wedidn't really realise we were
Pasifika, if you know what Imean, so I kind of felt like I
was sitting in two worlds but Ididn't really know enough around
my Samoan side. Even my parentswould talk to each other in
English, they didn't even speakSamoan to each other, obviously
(03:31):
they were fluent speakers butwould only speak Samoan
obviously when they were aroundthe relatives, so it took me a
while to really understand who Iwas as a
Pasifika person and thathonestly probably never happened
for me until I don't know 10years ago when I became a
(03:52):
principal and I started tosurround myself around Pasifika
people. And groups like NewZealand Pasifika Principals
where Karl he was veryinstrumental in getting that
going and how that kind of gotlike-minded people together for
us to kind of talk about thingsfrom a Pasifika lens, and also
(04:16):
Tautai o le Moana and yes I'mactually the chairperson of that
group but when I first got on tothat group I really didn't know
who I was, and I feel thatjoining that initiative helped
me to understand that I was aSamoan and what that actually
meant and I think when Iobviously got involved with
Tautai o le Moana that kind ofstrengthened what NZPPA had
(04:39):
already started.
Mārama (04:40):
Wonderful. Karl, do you want to talk a little bit about
your experience as a Pasifikaākonga at school?
Karl (04:47):
I think like all new cultures that come to New
Zealand, the first thing you dowhen you get here is you
surround yourself with familiarpeople, familiar smells,
familiar sounds, so the Pasifikapeople weren't any different. We
grew up in Grey Lynn so majorityof Pacific people when I was
young were living in the centralcity and so our churches were
there, our sports clubs werethere, we all went to the
(05:10):
similar schools. Jenny was oneof those - some moved out
different ways you know to getaway from that - so it starts in
that story for Pacific migrationto New Zealand. And so we played
the same sports and that's wherewe kind of felt like we were
just normal. It wasn't reallyuntil school when people started
talking about differences thatyou saw it or you had a friend
(05:32):
that didn't really look like you,or lived somewhere different, or
had different jokes. And Ireally didn't know that I was
any different from anyone else.Our language, my mother's fluent
in Samoan, my father's fluent inNuiean, but they never spoke to
us. We don't really even knowwe're even different until we
find cousins that actually speakour language, and we didn't. So
(05:53):
as a child, I had some keyPasifika teachers. I went to a
school that Jenny taught at. Andthere were key Pasifika teachers
that were at my school that Ican still remember today. Tosetu
Hepa. Mr. Apa, these people wereintegral, even Jenny herself,
who were key in kind of helpingme grow into the leader that I
(06:16):
am today.
Mārama (06:18):
That's wonderful. So you felt seen as a child as
yourself when you were inprimary school with those
teachers?
Karl (06:25):
We were not treated differently. We were just Grey
Lynn students. And it wasn'tuntil people point out that you
actually are Pasifika orPolynesian - my mother and
father grew up in the Dawn Raidera. But it was never affected
by then because of Niueans orcertain cultures weren't
targeted. It was certaincultures that were targeted,
(06:50):
predominantly Samoan. But whenyour mother's name is April
Ngaire Agnes O'Dwyer, they don'tcome knocking on your door.
Jenny (06:57):
I think- Karl he was just talking about names it's like me
I have obviously a European nameso people with Polynesian names
are treated differently and evenwhen visiting Samoa you visit
Samoa as a palagi not as aSamoan when I have been there,
because you know from getting onthe buses you see that if you're
(07:21):
if you're a palagi you get tohave a chair, if you're not you
sit with four other people onyour lap you know. So names they
have a big you know big impacton how people look at you Yeah,
very big impact. But you know,times are changing. That's the
thing, times are changing. And Imean, Karl does this whole big,
um, PD around names and theimportance of your name and
(07:45):
really honouring where your namecomes from eh.
Mārama (07:48):
Yeah, names are important. We shared a little
bit previously about howsometimes standing up for your
name and asking for the rightfor your name to be pronounced
properly, can actually be usedas a way to persecute you. My
auntie, she was kicked out ofclass in the 60s and '70s for
(08:09):
asking for her name topronounced correctly. I was
kicked out in the '80s. Yeah, isit the same, you think, for
Pasifika students?
Karl (08:17):
What saddens me is that people hear the way in which
your name is pronounced, andthey accept that as the right
way. When your name ispronounced properly using the
proper vowel sounds, somechildren even are embarrassed of
their name because it sounds somuch different. So they're used
to the way in which people sayit. For example, one of those
(08:39):
ones is one of my friends usedto be called Ioane. And he
accepted that he was calledIoane. But when you say it
properly in Samoan, it is Ioane.And so when people would call
him Ioane, he kind of reacted ina way that was like, "Ah, don't
worry, don't cause trouble. Juststay there." Those are the
things that we need to be waryof. How children want to be
(09:03):
referred. It's important forthem to know how to say their
name, their own name, properlyfirst.
Mārama (09:10):
Graeme, you are a non-Pasifika tumuaki leading
Rowley School, and, which has avery high Pasifika population
and ākonga Māori. Can you tellme a bit about what it was like
at Rowley when you first arrived?And what changes did you feel
like you needed to make, and why?
Graeme (09:27):
I arrived in mid-2020 through the COVID lockdowns,
which was an interesting time toarrive. But the school was in
quite a state of disarray at thepoint. The roll had dropped
below a hundred. There was nopride in the school. There was
nothing around. There was just aplace that some kids had to go
(09:48):
to because they couldn't getinto another school, basically.
So, we needed to change thataround and make the school the
place of choice for ourcommunity. So, we really focused
in on our Māori Pasifika,because we were 40% Māori, 40%
Pasifika. And I needed to dothat. To do that, I knew I
(10:08):
needed to connect to theirculture and community.So , their
culture, we really worked onaround Māori Pasifika culture,
and then community. Being proudof being coming from Rowley
School and from the Rowley areaof Christchurch. So yeah, we
looked at that and part of thatjourney for me has been with the
(10:32):
Tautai o le Moana, and gettingon to that program, and helping
me, especially around thePasifika lens
Mārama (10:41):
That's That's wonderful. Now we've, our podcast targeted
to our new tumuaki, and topossible aspiring principals.
Could you tell me a bit aboutjoining Tautai o le Moana?
Graeme (10:54):
Tautai o le Moana is a program for principals
to come on and learn aboutPasifika. We looked at Tapasā,
we looked at all sorts of things,done a lot of work down with
Pasifika principals, and gettinga good understanding of what it
is to be Pasifika. I think thebiggest part of it from that
(11:19):
I've taken out of that journey.And the beauty with the Tautai
program, I believe, is that itis very well set to everybody's
individual needs. And as apākeha coming in on it, it was
very well, I was just part ofthe program. And I believed it
(11:39):
was important because of thehigh Pasifika, and I needed to
learn it. So, I was open, andthey've just embraced me and
taken me under their wings, andhelped me grow in my knowledge
and understanding aroundPasifika. I think some of the
best PD that we've actually hadfrom it is they do trips over to
(12:00):
the islands, and I went to theCook Islands, to Samoa, and this
year, I'm going to Tonga. Sogoing to visit the islands and
seeing where our pupils comefrom has been some of the best
PD that I've done in my career
Mārama (12:16):
Wonderful. It's a theme that has gone across most of the
podcasts that I've been doing,that the strength and the
child's identity and being ableto thrive in an environment
where they can be themselvesreally sets them on a journey
towards success. How do you likewith the many different Pasifika
(12:37):
nations - Samoa, Tonga, Fiji,how do you help them feel like
they to their own individualspaces as well
Graeme (12:46):
I think very strategic and how I employ people. So when
our children come in, they cansee themselves in the school. So,
So I've got a number of LSAs andthat are leaders. that are of
Pasifika origin. And they havebeen a great source for me,
because I've always got someoneto talk to. So, a good example
(13:10):
is if I'm talking with parents,I will get, if it's a Samoan, I
will bring one of the LSAs inwith me, so they can interpret.
And we can speak in gaganaSamoan and that helps them to
grow, and it gives the parentsthe confidence in what we're
saying to them as well. So,having the experts, if you like,
(13:31):
and sitting alongside me hasreally helped me.
Mārama (13:35):
That must really help build a really significant
strong sense of community
around more than just the child -perhaps the whole whānau if
they are moving over for work.
Graeme (13:45):
It really does. It helps that, it strengthens it. They
then realise that we respecttheir culture and it's not just,
oh, doing this to make it. Theysee we're here, we want to
understand them, understandwhat's happening, and we have
the people around who cancommunicate with them. And the
(14:06):
communication is the biggestpart of our job with the whānau,
with anybody. So, if we cancommunicate with our whānau,
they are going to bring thechildren to school.
Mārama (14:17):
That's wonderful. So what would your advice be for
young pākeha principal who'scoming a school with high
percentage ākonga, what wheredo they start, what do they need
to do?
Graeme (14:29):
I think the Tautai programme is a great place to
start and they can put somesupports around you really fast
but getting to know yourcommunity, getting to know the
key people in your communityhelps. There's a gentleman that
I met on the first day here, andthey called him the Mayor of
(14:50):
Rowley. And so I got to know him,I went deliberately sought him
out. He's Cook Island Maōri andhe was able then to introduce me
to the key leaders. And he said,"These are the key pastors that
you need to meet, " so he tookme and introduced me. So I think
the key thing is finding the keypeople in your community because
(15:11):
you're new, you don't, I didn'tknow anybody here. So I needed
to quickly find people and thenget that growing because for me
it was around the community. Ineeded to understand the
community. So finding the keypeople that can introduce you is
where you go, I believe rightfrom the start.
Mārama (15:32):
Well, you built your community and grounded yourself
so that you could build that forothers, really.
Graeme (15:36):
Yeah, and it took a little bit, but we've done it
where now, like five years ago,we were at a hundred pupils,
we're at 230. So the communityhave brought back in and they're
coming into the school.Yesterday there was a big post
on one of our local communityFacebook pages. And a parent had
(15:57):
commented, "Oh, you need to sendyour kids to Rowley" because his
mum was asking a school, andthey said because they respect
everybody's culture. And for me,thatwas, we've done our job or
we're doing our job, not done it,we're doing it because we need
to keep going.
Mārama (16:13):
Congratulations, Graeme. That's amazing
Graeme (16:15):
Thank you
Mārama (16:16):
And Karl?
Karl (16:17):
I think what our schools need are the best principal, and
it could be, you know, you couldbe white yellow pink orange blue,
who cares? The community needsthe best principal and first and
foremost, wh that principalneeds is a support structure
around them. People advisingthem
appropriately. We heard Graemetalking about, you know, finding
(16:42):
out who the mayor of Rowley wasand so it's finding those key
people to open the doors for you.Not to come in and straight away,
you know, start acting likeyou've got all this sussed.
Listening, sitting down, talking,engaging with, but it's vital.
So when I started principalship,there were a few key principals
(17:04):
that I would refer to forsupport. Now we've created a
network for young Pasifikaprincipals who start in the job,
you know, the New ZealandPasifika Principals Association,
founded in 2007, where peoplecan feel safe. What's also
important is for young and newprincipals to associate
(17:24):
themselves with their localprincipal networks and principal
associations. It is there thatyou find people that have been
in the, in the game for so longhave little secrets. It's not
about copying each other orbecoming little mini-mes, but
it's about feeling safe, toshare, to expose your weaknesses,
(17:46):
but you've got to find thatspace. Bu you must, principals,
you must be critical that thefeedback or the information you
are getting from those people isthe right stuff. So you can't
just be listening to yourprevious principal and then
everything that they say isright, seek others as well and
(18:06):
experts, would you agree Jen?
Jenny (18:08):
Yeah, just, just, just adding on to what Karl said, um,
I, um, one of my DPs has justwon a principals position. um,
Sa, um, European. And one of thethings that I've said to um, is
that you need to build a village.You need to know that you're not
alone. And you need to surroundyourself trusted mentors that
(18:29):
are going to work alongside you.And also fellow leaders, other
principals, people that havebeen in the game for a long time,
so that you can understand, youknow, the journey that you're
going to go on. And, and, toremind you sometimes the the
road does get hard, but thereare people there that are going
to support you along the wholeway. And, you know, going into
(18:52):
principalship is not the, I, Iremember when I first won my
principalship, and I sat in theoffice and I thought, well, what
do I do and, um, it wasn't untilsomething kind uh, difficu
happened at school that I reallyhad to put on my principal's hat
and say, yeah, right now I'vegot to act and start making some
decisions. But principalship -build a village. Build those
(19:14):
people around you that are goingto support you, that are going
to help you. They're going to begood mentors that are going to
give you good advice, so thatyou know you're not walking this
path alone. I think that'sreally important.
Graeme (19:25):
Yeah, just reinforcing that, that there are a lot of
people that will support andhelp you. I've spoken with a
couple of principals aboutjoining the Tautai program and
they think it's for Pasifikaonly. And it's no, it's for
leaders of Pasifika children.And so it's get in there, it's
(19:48):
like I keep saying, it's thebest PD I've had and the people
just wrapped around me and it'shelped me. It helps me too
because when we've held a coupleof events down here for Tautai,
the parents they see that. Andthey see the Pasifika whānau
coming in and see that we'vewelcomed them. So our Pasifika
(20:09):
whānau go, "Oh, we do respectit, we understand it. " And so
also with it, part of beingthrough the Tautai, I've been on
the New Zealand PasifikaPrincipals Association as well
for the last five years. That'svaluable PD too and a valuable
kaumatuaship that comes withthat, and that's continuing to
(20:30):
grow, we're heading towards ahundred, aren't we Karl, members
there and so that's a great baseto support and help with
everything we do. And doing itis supporting our children.
Karl (20:44):
It also... You're not the font of all knowledge. You're
not, you're not, you know,myself and Jenny would agree,
there were moments when we firstgot our first principalship and
then we're like, yeah, we're thebombs, you will be exposed, you
will be found lacking if you actlike that. Empower others, put
(21:05):
others first, lead from the back,server leadership is really,
really important. You don't needto have all the answers. If I'm
playing rugby and there's a hugegroup of people in front of me,
and you're a big guy or a biglady, you know, you' running up
straight, but if you're not fast,you're going to pass it to
someone who's faster. So useyour team, like a team, bring
(21:26):
that kind of, that sports kindof analogy into your
principalship. So I'vesurrounded myself with many,
many, many leaders that are muchbetter than me when it comes to
a lot of running a school. Ihave my skills, I stay in my
lane, and I allow them to lead.So, you know, when it comes to
(21:48):
curriculum knowledge, I am not,I know enough, but I'm not an
expert. That's why one of my DPsis an absolute expert, goes to
bed dreaming about thecurriculum and others are good
behavior management, others aregood at assessment, and so
finding those people in yourstaff and empowering them will
(22:09):
help your principalship. And
Jenny (22:10):
percent 100 percent of what Karl's saying, you surround
yourself with the people thathave the expertise in the
different fields because as aprincipal, you can't have the
expertise in everything, but youcan oversee everything. Yo know
what's going on, but you're,you're getting those people
there that, that are the expertsand that can do the leading. But
you know, I've said to my DPwho's just won this role, that
(22:33):
as a Pasifika person, she needsto make sure she grounds herself
in the leadership values ofrespect, building those
relationships, understandingcommunity and also service. That
needs to be a priority for herand, always sort of, you know,
if you're not sure, take time.And I mean, Karl and I have been
(22:56):
principals for a long time, butthere's still things that come
our way that we've never seen,and we have to take a step back
and think, okay, well, how am Igoing to, how am I going to
handle this one? Because youthink you'd know everything by
now, but you don't, eh Karl,there's always something that's
coming up.
Karl (23:13):
You know, it surprises me with the Tautai o le Moana
programme. They, a lot of theprincipals who are non-Pasifika,
the Tautai o le Moana program,builds your leadership
capability in a Pacific realm.And so they come along,
expecting me to put a littletablet in their mouth and then
overnight, they turn into aTongan the next day or they turn
and say, but they surprise mewith how much they challenge me
(23:38):
with how I see the world. ThePasifika program, the Tautai o
le Moana programme, wantsprincipals to just be you and be
a powerful you, understand whoyou are in any realm will make
your ability to connect withothers ten times. So new
principal, non-Pasifika, goinginto a large Pasifika school,
(24:00):
first advice, understand who youare, first and foremost. Be
strong and understand yourbeliefs, understand tangata
whenua, and Te Tiritipartnership. U that realm and
how it links through, then buildthese bridges about how do I
then understand this community.A little bit of advice for young
(24:23):
principals, you don't need tochange. So when we see Graeme,
he didn't change. Graheme isalways being Graeme, but inside
he has these values andunderstandings and behaviours
that sometimes we look at, whilethose are real strong values
that link to my values as aPasifika.
Mārama (24:40):
That's wonderful. Now a very strong theme that is run
across all of our podcasts isthat the strength of one's
identity really helps us tobuild identity within our
ākonga, within our staff. Butalso it has given them the
strength to perhaps challenge asystem, the education system,
(25:02):
which can actually throw uphurdles now and again. Do you
feel like your strength in youridentity has helped you
challenge our system?
Jenny (25:10):
Yeah, if you know your identity, you'll challenge
something that you don't thinkis right. and I must say, I, I
commend Karl because he's reallygood at doing that kind of stuff.
I'm kind of the silent person,person behind the, behind the
scenes. But, you know, if youare strong in who you are and
what you believe in, you willhave a voice and you will say
when things aren't right. And,you know, I always believe I am
(25:34):
a speaker for my kids at theschool. And if I don't think
things are right for them, thenI will speak up for them, you
know.
Mārama (25:40):
Jenny, what are your hopes for the next generation of
Pasifika leaders in education?
Jenny (25:45):
Oh, I hope that we grow more Pasifika leaders, and
obviously NZPPA, are a goodbackbone for supporting Pasifika
leaders. We need to really sortof grow our DPs so they're going
into leadership into our, intoour schools and being Um, but as
I say, they just need to bestrong in their you know, build
that village that they need tobe able to be strong leaders,
(26:09):
get the right people around them,um, get the right support.
because we need Pasifika lookhow many Pasifika children we
have in New Zealand, you know,we have a lot. And, um, the
amount of perhaps Europeanleaders, we have to Pasifika
leaders is not marrying upconsidering most of our children
are Pasifika. But it would bereally nice to see, more of them
(26:29):
grow into, or want to be inthose positions, and take the
next step.
Mārama (26:34):
Thank you. Karl would you like to add to that? What
would you like for our nextgeneration of Pasifika leaders?
Karl (26:41):
I think the reason why NZPPA, NZPF, and also the
Ministry of Education, workedtogether to set up Tautai o le
Moana, which is equivalent tothe Māori Achievement
Collaboratives, was to ensurethat we boost the capability of
non-Pasifika principals inPasifika realms. The reality is
(27:03):
that we will never grow to hugenumbers of principals. If some
of our Pasifika young peoplebecome principals, well done.
What we need to do is look atthe critical mass of teachers
and to build their capability,grow them as good leaders so
that they come through and it'snot a matter of large number of
(27:24):
Pasifika, let's get a Pasifikaprincipal. Large amount of
Pasifika - let's get the bestprincipal. Are there more
Pasifika principals now thanwhen I first started? Absolutely,
there are much more now. Willthere be more? Yes, I believe so,
but what we need is the Tautai ole Moana programme.
Mārama (27:44):
Thank you so much koutou for joining me today. I
really appreciate the kōreroand it's great to hear that many
of the themes that our Pasifikaprincipals are reflected in our
tumuaki Māori as well. And it'sgreat that we have that
partnership together and we worktogether for what's best for our
ākonga.
Jenny (28:05):
Thank you
Mārama (28:06):
Wow, we've come to the end. Thank you so much to
everyone who have walked with usthrough this part of the
Principals podcast series.Whether you've been listening
from the start or dropped inalong the way, you've been part
of something special. Acrossthese episodes, we've heard
about the tension of leading inspaces not built for us, the
(28:26):
strength it takes to be visible,and the deep joy of finding your
turangawaewae as tumuaki Māoriand Pasifika principals. We've
heard that authenticity isresistance, that aroha can walk
with fire, and that ourleadership is not a position,
it's a service to our people.We've also been reminded that
we're not alone. We walk in thefootsteps of our tīpuna, and we
(28:50):
stand shoulder to shoulder witheach other. To our new tumuaki,
you belong here. Your voice isneeded, and your culture is not
something to hide, it is thewairua that will guide you
through. Thanks again forlistening. Eleisha will be back
with you for the next season,but I'll leave you with this
whakatoki. Mā mua ka kite amuri, mā muri ka ora a mua.
(29:16):
Those who lead give sight tothose who follow, and those who
follow give life to those wholead. Kia kaha, kia māia, kia
manawanui. Ka kita ano i te ara.
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