Welcome to Season 2 of The Principals, a podcast series for tumuaki and aspiring tumuaki in Aotearoa New Zealand, hosted by Eleisha McNeill. It’s great to be back.
What does leadership potential look like in your staff, and how do you nurture it? In this episode, two experienced principals share how they got to where they are, what they look for in potential leaders, and why it's so important to build leadership capability and capacity in the New Zealand school system.
Today’s guests are:
- Ian Taylor, principal of Manurewa Intermediate and author of "All the time, Every Time, All of us, Everywhere!"
- Denise Torrey, former tumuaki of Somerfield Te Kura Wairepo in Christchurch, and now principals’ support officer for the Primary Principals’ Collective Bargaining team.
This podcast was produced for the Ministry of Education.
You can learn more by accessing the e-learning modules for principals on the Education LMS: https://training.education.govt.nz
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eleisha (00:08):
Kia ora and welcome to season two of The Principals, a
podcast series for aspiring andcurrent senior leaders and
tumuaki in Aotearoa, New Zealand.I'm Eleisha McNeill and it's so
lovely to be back with you.Thanks for joining me. The first
couple of episodes of thisseason are going to focus on
identifying and developingfuture school leaders. And I'm
(00:30):
joined by two super experiencedprinciples to talk about how
they got to where they are, whatthey look for in potential
leaders, leaders. and why it'sso important to build leadership
capability and capacity in theNew Zealand school system. So we
always start with introductions.Maybe Denise would you like to
introduce yourself and tell us alittle bit about yourself.
Denise (00:51):
Ko Ōtātara te maunga, Tūtae te awa, no Ahuriri ahau.
Engari kei Otautahi toku kaingainainei. Ko Denise Torre toko
ingoa. uhm, no reira, tēnakoutou, tēn koutou, tēnā
tātou katoa. My name is DeniseTorrey. I am currently the
Principal Support Officer ofPPCB Union, uh, their lead
(01:14):
negotiator, and I'm also thefounder and the developer of
Canterbury Primary PrincipalAssociation Middle Leaders
Programme, and we've beenrunning that program for over 10
years for about 12 to 15 schoolsa year and up to 50 participants.
So, it's a big piece of workhere in Canterbury.
Eleisha (01:32):
And you're a former tumuaki as well,
Denise (01:35):
I'm a former tumuaki of Somerfield Te Kura Wairepo here
in Christchurch.
Iain (01:41):
tangi te titi, ka tangi te kaka, ka tangi hoki ahau. Tihei
Mauri Ora. Tēnā koutou, tēnākoutou,tēnā koutou katoa. Yes,
I'm Iain Taylor, I'm theprincipal of Manurewa
Intermediate School, where I'vebeen for quite some time,
like Denise, I've been aprevious NZPF
president, and yeah, that's me.
Eleisha (02:02):
Excellent. So, I'm interested to hear a little bit
about how you both got intoprincipalship and who the people
were that influenced your moveinto school leadership, maybe
start with you, Ian.
Iain (02:16):
Well, I've been principal for a very long time. This is my
34th year, I think. I started asa teaching rural school
principal. A littlethree-teacher school, and I had
a class of standard two to formtwo in those days, and I
absolutely loved it. And I guessI'd been encouraged to get into
(02:38):
leadership very early from myfirst principal in my first year
teaching, a guy called Tom Brown,who was the principal of
Greenmeadows Intermediate School,where I was a first year teacher,
and he was just an amazingperson. He was retired at the
end of my second year there,actually. But he was very
encouraging. And I kept incontact with him right through
until he passed away, actually.And he was very supportive and
(03:01):
encouraging and just let you dostuff. And that's what I
appreciated. I then also workedat another school, a couple of
years later, for one year, andhalfway through that year the
principal came to me and he saidthat you needed to leave. And I
thought, "Oh gosh, that'sinteresting!" And he said that I
would never get ahead in thatschool. It was positive. It was
(03:24):
a boys' private school. I'dnever get ahead in that school
just because I didn't representeverything that private boys
schools represented, you canimagine what they're like. And
so I thought, "right, sweet." SoI applied for my first DP's job.
So he also influenced me as wellin the sense that he saw
something in me as well andencouraged me to head off. I've
(03:46):
loved the career and I knowDenise will probably say the
same, I love being a principal.It's exciting, it's fun, it's
different all the time. And I'mthankful to those two men who
sort of gave me the scope andencouragement to sort of fly.
Eleisha (04:03):
That's awesome. What about you, Denise, what's your
story?
Denise (04:07):
Well, I was a teacher in Christchurch and Hawkes Bay and
Twizel back to Woodend, oh, forabout 12 years and went into a
teaching job where I quicklymade the head of sport and
whatever and suddenly got intoan organisation role and then
(04:27):
just bought into leadershipbecause of that. So I applied
for a senior teacher job aschool out here in Christchurch
called Templeton and I went fromthere from senior teacher, I did
assistant principal. I didprincipal for a year because our
principal decided he wanted togo and work at the Ministry.
Then he resigned. I didn't getthe job, but actually that
(04:49):
wasn't such a bad thing at thatstage, I'm not sure I was ready.
Then I went to being the DP fora number of years, did some
reviewing as a DP seconded toERO, and my principal at the
time, Peter Bradley, who sincepassed, said time for you,
there's plenty of options foryou out there and encouraged me
to apply for jobs. And likeIain's journey, I was encouraged
(05:13):
by the previous principal andPete, just to give it a go, they
noted that, you know, you hadinitiative, they noticed that
you were passionate about yourwork, they noted that you would
give anything a go, tha you hadcreativity, you were creating
opportunities for yourself andothers and just said, give it a
go.So then I applied theprincipalship at Somerfield Te
(05:35):
Kura Wairepo as a beginningprincipal and was appointed and
I was there for 22 years and Ihave to say, fantastic
opportunity, wonderful school,had a lot of hats on at that
time. CPPA president, mentor forCPPA post earthquakes and
through the closures and mergers,NZPF president, head of union
(05:57):
for PPCB and also worked for amental program called Mana Ake
where I helped develop thatproject across Canterbury, as
the school representative. So ofbeyond my principal ship, was
given lots of opportunities totry plenty of things. People
just keep asking you and youjust keep saying yes, because
(06:18):
you can see how important it isthat people like you're involved
for
Eleisha (06:22):
Yeah,
Denise (06:22):
kids and encourage others to do the same.
Eleisha (06:26):
absolutely, absolutely. And you mentioned there that you
initially didn't get a principaljob and you said you didn't
think in hindsight, you wereready, what makes you say that?
Denise (06:35):
I mean I'd had a year as an acting principal and I
thought I knew it, actually, Ithought I knew it and then this
person who got the job
bought other elements ofprincipalship that I hadn't
really experienced.
and his people management a goodexample of how to manage people.
He also
(06:57):
made me do other things thatactually added to it like
develop the performancemanagement for the school and
all of those things that I'dsort of been working on, holding
and hovering because knowinganother principal was going to
come along didn't go too fardown the road. But the soon as
he got there he said, "I knowthat's your forte, you go and do
it." So I just think that theyadded to my skillset and
(07:20):
encouraged me in other ways thatI hadn't thought of before.
Eleisha (07:23):
So, obviously, both of you had had people who
encouraged you on your journeys.As a principal, how important is
it to develop future leaders,Iain?
Iain (07:34):
Vital, obviously, and it's important that the leaders that
you develop are people that aregoing to have skills that might
be different to your own. So ifyou have senior management in
your own school, you don't wanteveryone in your school to have
the same skills and strengths asyou because you need the other
(07:56):
people to be good at somethingthat you're not good at, so that
you're letting them fly in theschool. There are people who
work incredibly hard. I knowDenise and I are probably two of
the most hard working principalsyou can find in terms of hours
and all the rest of it. And itdoes take a lot of hours to do
the job well, it absolutely does.And I often am concerned with
principals who are stressed orwhatever. And it's about the
(08:19):
time because if you don't putthe time in, it can, it gets
stressful
Eleisha (08:22):
Hmm.
Iain (08:22):
because you're not up to the play with things. So I
always think encouraging otherpeople to become a principal and
developing their leadershipskills, you need to model a
whole lot of stuff at the sametime. But allow them to be the
boss within the school of thethings that they are good at.
I'm great at lots of things butI'm also terrible at lots of
(08:45):
things. So you don't wantsomeone to be good at everything.
But you do want everyone to behighly relational. I think the
personal side of a person isvery important and everyone has
to have that skill. Like when weappoint deputy principals for
example, we look at what we callthe three C's, character,
(09:05):
competence, chemistry.
Eleisha (09:06):
Hmm.
Iain (09:06):
So you would think competency would the first thing
we look at, it's not because youcan learn the job but you can't
learn chemistry or character orwhat your personality is. So
yeah, it's vital to be able todo that.
Eleisha (09:21):
Denise, what are your thoughts on that?
Denise (09:23):
Look, I'm very focused on raising student achievement
and I want, um, Iain, to findpeople who complement me to do
that. and And there are a wholepile of things that I've done,
but I don't want to do again. Asa deputy principal I was a Senco
and all of those sorts of thingsand even though a principal does
a lot of that work you needsomeone with expertise in that,
(09:44):
you need someone who'sdata-driven but most of all
you've you need people who cantake other people with them and
you know building that schoolculture where you've got people
with initiative and creativityand areas of expertise, that can
relate to people, can becollaborative. And that ensures
(10:05):
that we go building continuityin our community as well,
because when some of thosepeople move on, invariably they
do and Iain and I both know whatthat's like because we do that
and they move on. You won't wantthem to have modeled good
leadership skills to bring thenext group of people on as well
so you're constantly buildingthat leadership capability, you
might have to bring new peopleinto complement it, but I like
(10:29):
to see lots of levels ofleadership throughout the school -
it's not just the DPs and APs -I know in many schools you have
a DP, and AP and a seniorteacher, but you also have
people who are passionate aboutcurriculum and they want to lead
that particular thing. it'sabout also creating
opportunities to do that andensuring that they know what
(10:51):
you're that's really important Iand and those will build future
leaders who will then eventuallybuild future leaders. I guess I
look at it and I know Iain andI've discussed this, actually
we're building leaders to leadschools across the motu so it's
a really important that we arebuilding the layers of
(11:11):
leadership and they will go onand build layers of leadership.
Eleisha (11:14):
Hmm. So, you mentioned there that you develop leaders
and then they tend to leave ormove on. How do you deal with
that tension between developingsomeone and potentially losing
them? Is that just part of howit goes?
Denise (11:30):
It annoys boards of trustees of course. If you have
a philosophy about it takes avillage to raise a child, it's
not just your village, it'sbeyond that. So if we can build
great leaders, that means otherkids get the advantage of having
those passionate energeticpeople going out and leading
schools. So I know boards oftrustees are like, ah, stop
(11:52):
doing that Denise, you know theythey're applying for jobs and
you're encouraging them to. Well,that's great, that's great for
other kids. We want every kid tohave a wonderful schooling
experience. We want every kid tohave a really motivated creative
principal who's there for them.And if we can help build those
and I say we as in the wholeschool, because often it's the
(12:16):
board of trustees then get intothat habit and they encourage,
you know, people to do the samehave a go, have a go if you can.
So it's not just about our ownschools, we want the best
schools of course for our kids,but we also want great schools
for other kids.
Iain (12:31):
That's just part of the whole picture, right? My
thoughts are I would rather havesomeone for two to three years
who's working their butt off,who's really there for the kids,
who's highly energised andenthusiastic, than someone who's
stayed and then they get aprincipal's job and move, then
someone who's going to be therefor seven, eight, nine, 10 years
and do an okay job, but not bepositive, enthusiastic, whatever.
(12:54):
So I think it's par for thecourse that an effective leader
wants to help develop moreeffective leaders, so you
develop that culture within yourschool where they're nurtured
and they're enabled to flybecause of the scope you've
given and because of the skillsthey already have, but you're
building upon that hopefully. So,yeah, it's par for the course.
Eleisha (13:17):
Hmm. Absolutely. And you both talked about there
building cultures within yourschool, you know, where leaders
can come up through the ranks.So, how do you do that? Is it
about as a principal being opento people coming to you and
saying, hey, you know, I'm readyfor more responsibility?
Iain (13:32):
I think what we try to do here a lot is provide a
structure and space for a seniorleader move on to the next step,
but it's important from myperspective, as the boss boss,
so to speak, that I maintain aninterest and involvement in
everything it is that they'redoing. That doesn't mean you're
being like all over the top andmicromanaging them.
Eleisha (13:55):
Hmm.
Iain (13:55):
It's just making sure you're aware of what their tasks
are, where they are at, whatthey're doing, you have a
positive oversight of them, butyou trust them to get the job
done, obviously.
Eleisha (14:04):
Hmm.
Iain (14:04):
But you need to be aware of what they're doing and that
internal promotion is a dilemmabecause the minute you promote
an internal person, you've gotanother position to fill and in
the marketplace at the moment,that's a nightmare.
Eleisha (14:19):
Yeah.
Iain (14:20):
I you've got a teacher that becomes a DP in the school,
etc. I sometimes find aninternal person makes it way
easier on me lead them furtherbecause they already know the
structure of the school, theyalready know the values and the
systems and the beliefs of whywe exist. So, yeah, it's
important that we do that
Eleisha (14:39):
An you know the way they work, which probably makes
it easier to, okay?
Iain (14:43):
True, definitely, defini.
Eleisha (14:46):
Denise.
Denise (14:46):
I'm possibly more structured in a way. I like them
to have a bit of a plan as aleader about what they're doing.
I mean, I do a lot of coachingof the leaders. They have a plan
and we coach them of how they'remanaging that. So when Iain
talks about oversight, that'sexactly what it is. Meeting
every three weeks, going throughtheir plan. What are the
challenges that you're having asa leader? Where can you go to
(15:10):
get some quals or some otherperspective? What are some
things that you might do to addto your skillset? We can look at
that within the plan andpromoting internally is great,
but I also like bringing newpeople into the organisation and
sometimes that brings a real
shift and people realise thatsometimes we're going to be
(15:34):
challenged, including me, bythis new person coming in who's
brought new ideas and thinkingthat we may not have, we might
have got a bit comfortable, sohaving that person come in and
challenge some of the ways we'vebeen doing things around there.
I relate to what Iain says abouttrying to get people now. trying
to get people to apply for thosemiddle-leadership jobs is really
(15:56):
difficult at the moment and alot of those people want walking
DP jobs and there are very fewof those. Most deputy principals
have some teaching componentbecause you want them close to
kids, teachers and learning andthe curriculum. You don't want
them being so far away from theteacher in the classroom or the
(16:18):
kids in their learning that theybecome just a glorified
organiser, and that is a risk.
Iain (16:24):
definitely. And I think I just add something else to that
as well. I think it's alsoimportant that if you're trying
to develop those internalleaders or bringing external
people in, that the philosophyof student-centricness permeates
everything you do. When Denisetalked bringing other DPs in and
having them in classes still,having some teaching components,
(16:45):
whatever, you want people to becaring about what's right, and
if a DP is still in theclassroom a percentage of time
taking a class or release groupor whatever it is they're doing,
they're actually in the guts ofit still, and the decisions that
we make hopefully will be goodfor students. So whenever you're
talking about something, ifwe're asking ourselves, should
we do this? And the answer is"Is it good for kids?" Yes, then
(17:09):
we should bloody well be doingit. And that's an advantage of
ensuring a leader is stillhaving some capacity in the
classroom with kids.
Eleisha (17:18):
And Iain you mentioned the 3C's uh, that you use when
you're looking ladders. What arethe signs that you look for in
someone's character that tellsyou that potentially might fit
well as a leader in your school.
Iain (17:31):
that they're interested in kids. And I know that sounds
bizarre to say that, but Iassure you there are teachers
who want to be a principal whodon't necessarily care about
kids, so to speak. So you canrecognise someone who's still
interested in kids, because theyhave an enthusiasm that is
contagious, they have a passionthat is really transparent. And
(17:53):
if they have all that stuff,then you don't keep beating
yourself up about what's rightor what's wrong or why am I
having to work for all of thesehours of the day and night,
because it does take a lot oftime to do it.
Eleisha (18:05):
Denise, did you want to add anything? What, what do you
look for?
Denise (18:08):
Yeah, like anyone who talks about kids usually grabs
me pretty quickly and in a verystrategic way, collaborative way.
You look at some of your leadersin meetings and they're very
kid-focussed and theirconversations come back to kids,
but they know how to draw peopleto them and get people working
(18:30):
with them. And those are some ofthe things that I have to say I
look for and the ones that caninfluence their, I mean, a lot
of what leaders do is solveproblems, isn't it? Manage
change and solve
Eleisha (18:42):
Hmm.
Denise (18:43):
problems, even at that basic classroom level. And those
people that can keep kids at thevery focus of solving those
problems, they're the ones thatgrab you and you think yes,
you're going to be a leader andwe might need to do a bit of
work with you, we might need togive you some skills, but we're
certainly going to be able tocreate a person who can work
(19:05):
with kids and with people tomake changes and solve problems.
Because generally, that's whatthey have to do all day.
Eleisha (19:12):
Thank you both. Stay tuned for our next episode when
we'll talk about trickyconversations, leadership
opportunities, and why youshould invest your time in
growing future leaders. Mā tewā.
Kia ora and welcome to season two of The Principals, a
podcast series for aspiring andcurrent senior leaders and
tumuaki in Aotearoa, New Zealand.I'm Eleisha McNeill and it's so
lovely to be back with you.Thanks for joining me. The first
couple of episodes of thisseason are going to focus on
identifying and developingfuture school leaders. And I'm
(00:30):
joined by two super experiencedprinciples to talk about how
they got to where they are, whatthey look for in potential
leaders, leaders. and why it'sso important to build leadership
capability and capacity in theNew Zealand school system. So we
always start with introductions.Maybe Denise would you like to
introduce yourself and tell us alittle bit about yourself.
Denise (00:51):
Ko Ōtātara te maunga, Tūtae te awa, no Ahuriri ahau.
Engari kei Otautahi toku kaingainainei. Ko Denise Torre toko
ingoa. uhm, no reira, tēnakoutou, tēn koutou, tēnā
tātou katoa. My name is DeniseTorrey. I am currently the
Principal Support Officer ofPPCB Union, uh, their lead
(01:14):
negotiator, and I'm also thefounder and the developer of
Canterbury Primary PrincipalAssociation Middle Leaders
Programme, and we've beenrunning that program for over 10
years for about 12 to 15 schoolsa year and up to 50 participants.
So, it's a big piece of workhere in Canterbury.
Eleisha (01:32):
And you're a former tumuaki as well,
Denise (01:35):
I'm a former tumuaki of Somerfield Te Kura Wairepo here
in Christchurch.
Iain (01:41):
tangi te titi, ka tangi te kaka, ka tangi hoki ahau. Tihei
Mauri Ora. Tēnā koutou, tēnākoutou,tēnā koutou katoa. Yes,
I'm Iain Taylor, I'm theprincipal of Manurewa
Intermediate School, where I'vebeen for quite some time,
like Denise, I've been aprevious NZPF
president, and yeah, that's me.
Eleisha (02:02):
Excellent. So, I'm interested to hear a little bit
about how you both got intoprincipalship and who the people
were that influenced your moveinto school leadership, maybe
start with you, Ian.
Iain (02:16):
Well, I've been principal for a very long time. This is my
34th year, I think. I started asa teaching rural school
principal. A littlethree-teacher school, and I had
a class of standard two to formtwo in those days, and I
absolutely loved it. And I guessI'd been encouraged to get into
(02:38):
leadership very early from myfirst principal in my first year
teaching, a guy called Tom Brown,who was the principal of
Greenmeadows Intermediate School,where I was a first year teacher,
and he was just an amazingperson. He was retired at the
end of my second year there,actually. But he was very
encouraging. And I kept incontact with him right through
until he passed away, actually.And he was very supportive and
(03:01):
encouraging and just let you dostuff. And that's what I
appreciated. I then also workedat another school, a couple of
years later, for one year, andhalfway through that year the
principal came to me and he saidthat you needed to leave. And I
thought, "Oh gosh, that'sinteresting!" And he said that I
would never get ahead in thatschool. It was positive. It was
(03:24):
a boys' private school. I'dnever get ahead in that school
just because I didn't representeverything that private boys
schools represented, you canimagine what they're like. And
so I thought, "right, sweet." SoI applied for my first DP's job.
So he also influenced me as wellin the sense that he saw
something in me as well andencouraged me to head off. I've
(03:46):
loved the career and I knowDenise will probably say the
same, I love being a principal.It's exciting, it's fun, it's
different all the time. And I'mthankful to those two men who
sort of gave me the scope andencouragement to sort of fly.
Eleisha (04:03):
That's awesome. What about you, Denise, what's your
story?
Denise (04:07):
Well, I was a teacher in Christchurch and Hawkes Bay and
Twizel back to Woodend, oh, forabout 12 years and went into a
teaching job where I quicklymade the head of sport and
whatever and suddenly got intoan organisation role and then
(04:27):
just bought into leadershipbecause of that. So I applied
for a senior teacher job aschool out here in Christchurch
called Templeton and I went fromthere from senior teacher, I did
assistant principal. I didprincipal for a year because our
principal decided he wanted togo and work at the Ministry.
Then he resigned. I didn't getthe job, but actually that
(04:49):
wasn't such a bad thing at thatstage, I'm not sure I was ready.
Then I went to being the DP fora number of years, did some
reviewing as a DP seconded toERO, and my principal at the
time, Peter Bradley, who sincepassed, said time for you,
there's plenty of options foryou out there and encouraged me
to apply for jobs. And likeIain's journey, I was encouraged
(05:13):
by the previous principal andPete, just to give it a go, they
noted that, you know, you hadinitiative, they noticed that
you were passionate about yourwork, they noted that you would
give anything a go, tha you hadcreativity, you were creating
opportunities for yourself andothers and just said, give it a
go.So then I applied theprincipalship at Somerfield Te
(05:35):
Kura Wairepo as a beginningprincipal and was appointed and
I was there for 22 years and Ihave to say, fantastic
opportunity, wonderful school,had a lot of hats on at that
time. CPPA president, mentor forCPPA post earthquakes and
through the closures and mergers,NZPF president, head of union
(05:57):
for PPCB and also worked for amental program called Mana Ake
where I helped develop thatproject across Canterbury, as
the school representative. So ofbeyond my principal ship, was
given lots of opportunities totry plenty of things. People
just keep asking you and youjust keep saying yes, because
(06:18):
you can see how important it isthat people like you're involved
for
Eleisha (06:22):
Yeah,
Denise (06:22):
kids and encourage others to do the same.
Eleisha (06:26):
absolutely, absolutely. And you mentioned there that you
initially didn't get a principaljob and you said you didn't
think in hindsight, you wereready, what makes you say that?
Denise (06:35):
I mean I'd had a year as an acting principal and I
thought I knew it, actually, Ithought I knew it and then this
person who got the job
bought other elements ofprincipalship that I hadn't
really experienced.
and his people management a goodexample of how to manage people.
He also
(06:57):
made me do other things thatactually added to it like
develop the performancemanagement for the school and
all of those things that I'dsort of been working on, holding
and hovering because knowinganother principal was going to
come along didn't go too fardown the road. But the soon as
he got there he said, "I knowthat's your forte, you go and do
it." So I just think that theyadded to my skillset and
(07:20):
encouraged me in other ways thatI hadn't thought of before.
Eleisha (07:23):
So, obviously, both of you had had people who
encouraged you on your journeys.As a principal, how important is
it to develop future leaders,Iain?
Iain (07:34):
Vital, obviously, and it's important that the leaders that
you develop are people that aregoing to have skills that might
be different to your own. So ifyou have senior management in
your own school, you don't wanteveryone in your school to have
the same skills and strengths asyou because you need the other
(07:56):
people to be good at somethingthat you're not good at, so that
you're letting them fly in theschool. There are people who
work incredibly hard. I knowDenise and I are probably two of
the most hard working principalsyou can find in terms of hours
and all the rest of it. And itdoes take a lot of hours to do
the job well, it absolutely does.And I often am concerned with
principals who are stressed orwhatever. And it's about the
(08:19):
time because if you don't putthe time in, it can, it gets
stressful
Eleisha (08:22):
Hmm.
Iain (08:22):
because you're not up to the play with things. So I
always think encouraging otherpeople to become a principal and
developing their leadershipskills, you need to model a
whole lot of stuff at the sametime. But allow them to be the
boss within the school of thethings that they are good at.
I'm great at lots of things butI'm also terrible at lots of
(08:45):
things. So you don't wantsomeone to be good at everything.
But you do want everyone to behighly relational. I think the
personal side of a person isvery important and everyone has
to have that skill. Like when weappoint deputy principals for
example, we look at what we callthe three C's, character,
(09:05):
competence, chemistry.
Eleisha (09:06):
Hmm.
Iain (09:06):
So you would think competency would the first thing
we look at, it's not because youcan learn the job but you can't
learn chemistry or character orwhat your personality is. So
yeah, it's vital to be able todo that.
Eleisha (09:21):
Denise, what are your thoughts on that?
Denise (09:23):
Look, I'm very focused on raising student achievement
and I want, um, Iain, to findpeople who complement me to do
that. and And there are a wholepile of things that I've done,
but I don't want to do again. Asa deputy principal I was a Senco
and all of those sorts of thingsand even though a principal does
a lot of that work you needsomeone with expertise in that,
(09:44):
you need someone who'sdata-driven but most of all
you've you need people who cantake other people with them and
you know building that schoolculture where you've got people
with initiative and creativityand areas of expertise, that can
relate to people, can becollaborative. And that ensures
(10:05):
that we go building continuityin our community as well,
because when some of thosepeople move on, invariably they
do and Iain and I both know whatthat's like because we do that
and they move on. You won't wantthem to have modeled good
leadership skills to bring thenext group of people on as well
so you're constantly buildingthat leadership capability, you
might have to bring new peopleinto complement it, but I like
(10:29):
to see lots of levels ofleadership throughout the school -
it's not just the DPs and APs -I know in many schools you have
a DP, and AP and a seniorteacher, but you also have
people who are passionate aboutcurriculum and they want to lead
that particular thing. it'sabout also creating
opportunities to do that andensuring that they know what
(10:51):
you're that's really important Iand and those will build future
leaders who will then eventuallybuild future leaders. I guess I
look at it and I know Iain andI've discussed this, actually
we're building leaders to leadschools across the motu so it's
a really important that we arebuilding the layers of
(11:11):
leadership and they will go onand build layers of leadership.
Eleisha (11:14):
Hmm. So, you mentioned there that you develop leaders
and then they tend to leave ormove on. How do you deal with
that tension between developingsomeone and potentially losing
them? Is that just part of howit goes?
Denise (11:30):
It annoys boards of trustees of course. If you have
a philosophy about it takes avillage to raise a child, it's
not just your village, it'sbeyond that. So if we can build
great leaders, that means otherkids get the advantage of having
those passionate energeticpeople going out and leading
schools. So I know boards oftrustees are like, ah, stop
(11:52):
doing that Denise, you know theythey're applying for jobs and
you're encouraging them to. Well,that's great, that's great for
other kids. We want every kid tohave a wonderful schooling
experience. We want every kid tohave a really motivated creative
principal who's there for them.And if we can help build those
and I say we as in the wholeschool, because often it's the
(12:16):
board of trustees then get intothat habit and they encourage,
you know, people to do the samehave a go, have a go if you can.
So it's not just about our ownschools, we want the best
schools of course for our kids,but we also want great schools
for other kids.
Iain (12:31):
That's just part of the whole picture, right? My
thoughts are I would rather havesomeone for two to three years
who's working their butt off,who's really there for the kids,
who's highly energised andenthusiastic, than someone who's
stayed and then they get aprincipal's job and move, then
someone who's going to be therefor seven, eight, nine, 10 years
and do an okay job, but not bepositive, enthusiastic, whatever.
(12:54):
So I think it's par for thecourse that an effective leader
wants to help develop moreeffective leaders, so you
develop that culture within yourschool where they're nurtured
and they're enabled to flybecause of the scope you've
given and because of the skillsthey already have, but you're
building upon that hopefully. So,yeah, it's par for the course.
Eleisha (13:17):
Hmm. Absolutely. And you both talked about there
building cultures within yourschool, you know, where leaders
can come up through the ranks.So, how do you do that? Is it
about as a principal being opento people coming to you and
saying, hey, you know, I'm readyfor more responsibility?
Iain (13:32):
I think what we try to do here a lot is provide a
structure and space for a seniorleader move on to the next step,
but it's important from myperspective, as the boss boss,
so to speak, that I maintain aninterest and involvement in
everything it is that they'redoing. That doesn't mean you're
being like all over the top andmicromanaging them.
Eleisha (13:55):
Hmm.
Iain (13:55):
It's just making sure you're aware of what their tasks
are, where they are at, whatthey're doing, you have a
positive oversight of them, butyou trust them to get the job
done, obviously.
Eleisha (14:04):
Hmm.
Iain (14:04):
But you need to be aware of what they're doing and that
internal promotion is a dilemmabecause the minute you promote
an internal person, you've gotanother position to fill and in
the marketplace at the moment,that's a nightmare.
Eleisha (14:19):
Yeah.
Iain (14:20):
I you've got a teacher that becomes a DP in the school,
etc. I sometimes find aninternal person makes it way
easier on me lead them furtherbecause they already know the
structure of the school, theyalready know the values and the
systems and the beliefs of whywe exist. So, yeah, it's
important that we do that
Eleisha (14:39):
An you know the way they work, which probably makes
it easier to, okay?
Iain (14:43):
True, definitely, defini.
Eleisha (14:46):
Denise.
Denise (14:46):
I'm possibly more structured in a way. I like them
to have a bit of a plan as aleader about what they're doing.
I mean, I do a lot of coachingof the leaders. They have a plan
and we coach them of how they'remanaging that. So when Iain
talks about oversight, that'sexactly what it is. Meeting
every three weeks, going throughtheir plan. What are the
challenges that you're having asa leader? Where can you go to
(15:10):
get some quals or some otherperspective? What are some
things that you might do to addto your skillset? We can look at
that within the plan andpromoting internally is great,
but I also like bringing newpeople into the organisation and
sometimes that brings a real
shift and people realise thatsometimes we're going to be
(15:34):
challenged, including me, bythis new person coming in who's
brought new ideas and thinkingthat we may not have, we might
have got a bit comfortable, sohaving that person come in and
challenge some of the ways we'vebeen doing things around there.
I relate to what Iain says abouttrying to get people now. trying
to get people to apply for thosemiddle-leadership jobs is really
(15:56):
difficult at the moment and alot of those people want walking
DP jobs and there are very fewof those. Most deputy principals
have some teaching componentbecause you want them close to
kids, teachers and learning andthe curriculum. You don't want
them being so far away from theteacher in the classroom or the
(16:18):
kids in their learning that theybecome just a glorified
organiser, and that is a risk.
Iain (16:24):
definitely. And I think I just add something else to that
as well. I think it's alsoimportant that if you're trying
to develop those internalleaders or bringing external
people in, that the philosophyof student-centricness permeates
everything you do. When Denisetalked bringing other DPs in and
having them in classes still,having some teaching components,
(16:45):
whatever, you want people to becaring about what's right, and
if a DP is still in theclassroom a percentage of time
taking a class or release groupor whatever it is they're doing,
they're actually in the guts ofit still, and the decisions that
we make hopefully will be goodfor students. So whenever you're
talking about something, ifwe're asking ourselves, should
we do this? And the answer is"Is it good for kids?" Yes, then
(17:09):
we should bloody well be doingit. And that's an advantage of
ensuring a leader is stillhaving some capacity in the
classroom with kids.
Eleisha (17:18):
And Iain you mentioned the 3C's uh, that you use when
you're looking ladders. What arethe signs that you look for in
someone's character that tellsyou that potentially might fit
well as a leader in your school.
Iain (17:31):
that they're interested in kids. And I know that sounds
bizarre to say that, but Iassure you there are teachers
who want to be a principal whodon't necessarily care about
kids, so to speak. So you canrecognise someone who's still
interested in kids, because theyhave an enthusiasm that is
contagious, they have a passionthat is really transparent. And
(17:53):
if they have all that stuff,then you don't keep beating
yourself up about what's rightor what's wrong or why am I
having to work for all of thesehours of the day and night,
because it does take a lot oftime to do it.
Eleisha (18:05):
Denise, did you want to add anything? What, what do you
look for?
Denise (18:08):
Yeah, like anyone who talks about kids usually grabs
me pretty quickly and in a verystrategic way, collaborative way.
You look at some of your leadersin meetings and they're very
kid-focussed and theirconversations come back to kids,
but they know how to draw peopleto them and get people working
(18:30):
with them. And those are some ofthe things that I have to say I
look for and the ones that caninfluence their, I mean, a lot
of what leaders do is solveproblems, isn't it? Manage
change and solve
Eleisha (18:42):
Hmm.
Denise (18:43):
problems, even at that basic classroom level. And those
people that can keep kids at thevery focus of solving those
problems, they're the ones thatgrab you and you think yes,
you're going to be a leader andwe might need to do a bit of
work with you, we might need togive you some skills, but we're
certainly going to be able tocreate a person who can work
(19:05):
with kids and with people tomake changes and solve problems.
Because generally, that's whatthey have to do all day.
Eleisha (19:12):
Thank you both. Stay tuned for our next episode when
we'll talk about trickyconversations, leadership
opportunities, and why youshould invest your time in
growing future leaders. Mā tewā.
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