November 3, 2025 • 24 mins
In this episode, we discover how this free, confidential service helps school leaders navigate challenges from board conflicts to strategic planning, and why reaching out for support - even when you don't need anything - can transform your leadership journey.
Hosted by Eleisha McNeill.
Our guests are:
- Former Leadership Advisor Phil Toomer, principal of Meadowbank School in Auckland
- Former Leadership Advisor Jackie Barron, principal of St Hilda’s Collegiate School in Dunedin
- Leadership Advisor Melissa Anderton
- Leadership Advisor Amy Hacker.
Additional information
Ministry of Education Leadership Advisors - https://workforce.education.govt.nz/principals-and-schools/professional-development-and-support-principals/leadership-advisors
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eleisha (00:08):
Kia ora, and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for aspiring and current tumuakiin Aotearoa New Zealand. I'm
Eleisha McNeill. What if youcould pick up the phone and
speak to someone who's walked inyour shoes as a principal? That
is exactly what the leadershipadvisory service offers. It's a
unique support system whereexperienced principles provide
(00:30):
one-on-one guidance to theircolleagues across the country.
And today I have threeleadership advisors with me.
I'll let them introducethemselves.
Jackie (00:39):
Kia ora koutou, ko Jackie Barron tōku ingoa, te
tumuaki o Te Kura O Hira Tapu,uh, Jackie Barron, I'm the
Principal of St. Hilda'sCollegiate in Dunedin. I've been
in that role for 11 years, andI've been a principal for 16
years.
Eleisha (00:52):
And you were a leadership advisor too, eh.
Jackie (00:54):
Yeah,
Eleisha (00:54):
Yep.
Jackie (00:55):
sorry
Eleisha (00:55):
Yeah. Thank you, Melissa.
Melissa (00:57):
Ko Melissa Anderton tōku ingoa, um, Leadership
Advisor for Otago Southland.This is my second year as
Leadership Advisor. Previous tothat I was principal at Te Kuiti
Primary School in the KingCountry, um, and have about ten
years principal experience.
Eleisha (01:13):
Awesome. Thank you, Phil.
Phil (01:14):
Kia ora, I'm Phil Toomer, I'm principal at Meadowbank
School, a primary school inAuckland. I've been here for
seven years. been principal intotal for 11 years, and was a
leadership advisor last year in2024. 24.
Eleisha (01:26):
Thank you, Amy.
Amy (01:28):
Kia ora, ko Amy Hacker ahau. I am a leadership advisor for
the Waikato, currently based inHamilton. I have been a
secondary principal and I havehad numerous years, I don't want
to count them up, of leadershipexperience in secondary schools
both in New Zealand and abroad.
Eleisha (01:48):
Fantastic. Thank you all for joining me today. We'll
start by asking a really basicquestion. Can you please tell me
what the leadership advisoryservice is and what leadership
advisors can offer? Maybe Amy ifyou want to start.
Amy (02:02):
Sure, the Leadership Advisory Service came out of the
Tomorrow's School review and itis a service for principals by
principals that supports theleadership needs of principals
who are currently in the seat.So the idea is that those of us
with recent principal experiencecan support our colleagues in
both strategic leadership andwhat I find is also more just
(02:27):
general leadership challengesthat might come across
principals' tables. So there arecurrently 16 of us across the
country and that LeadershipAdvisory Service will be doubled
in 2026 and beyond
Eleisha (02:38):
That's fantastic. So if a principal finds themselves in
a situation that they're justnot a hundred percent sure how
to deal with or what to do with,what does the initial
conversation with the leadershipadvisor look like? Melissa.
Melissa (02:54):
So the first conversation's just really about
making that connection andbuilding that relationship. So
it might be scheduling a visitto the school and just really
getting an understanding of aschool context. And we just want
to listen and have openquestions and just be supportive
to the principals we're wantingto support.
Eleisha (03:15):
That's great. And what happens after that initial
conversation, Phil?
Phil (03:20):
I mean, I think the service is really flexible. So
some, some calls that come inare pretty quick, um, quick
answers, and they don't take allthat long to, sort of resolve
but some other, some otherissues do continue on for, for
many conversations or manyvisits. So I think it really
does depend on the, the contentand the nature of the, of the
support. Uh, you know, veryoften after an issue is kind of
(03:42):
resolved or we thought we've gotan outcome and the leadership
advisor will give the principalcall back and follow up and see
whether there's still somesupport that's needed so...
because it's an on-call, um,support that's designed to be
super flexible, I think that thenumber of convos, the type of
convos they're all super variedand really responsive to exactly
what that principal needs.
Eleisha (03:59):
Amy.
Amy (04:00):
I know that a lot of the support we offer is people, at
least I offer, is, uh,principals who are in their
first three to five years ofprincipalship because here in
New Zealand, we've got thebeginning principals program for
the first three years. And thenwe say, off you go, you're
fledged. And what is really niceabout the leadership advisory is
that they have that ongoingsupport, so that there's a
gradual release, uhm, and, youknow, and, as Phil was saying, a
(04:22):
lot of times principals willcome to us with a specific
leadership challenge. But thereare other times to be honest,
where one of the educationadvisors will say, 'Hey, Amy,
you know, I was just, I was justvisiting with this principal in
X and such a place. Do you thinkyou can go have a chat with
her?' She's experiencing asignificant amount of
professional isolation, or she'sgotten off-sides with her board,
or she's got a, you know, acommunity, uhm, challenge going
(04:45):
on. And, and so part of our roleis a little bit like being
therapists, where sometimes it,it is important just to have
someone listen, who, who hassome understanding of what it
might feel like to be in thatseat
Eleisha (04:59):
Yeah, yeah, it's such an important service. So, Jackie,
what are some of the most commonchallenges or situations that
principals will bring to aleadership advisor? And do they
differ between new principalsand experienced principals?
Jackie (05:14):
Oh, look, they, they differ right across the rohe
really, and it might be, um,experienced and inexperienced
principals, it might teachingprincipals in a small primary
school, have very differentissues to a principal of a
school of, say, 2000 students,and a very large staff. Um, so
in my role, I found that a lotof the, uh, principals they were
(05:35):
often around relational issuesand relationships might be, um,
a principal having trouble withtheir board, it might be
conflict on the staff, it mightbe conflict with a parent or
issues within the community. Um,and so often a lot of the issues
seem to be relational and aroundmanaging people, uh, and that
kind of, HR kind of issue, uh,and I think sometimes the other
(05:59):
issues that principals weremanaging or trying to manage was
the work load and stayingabreast of the, of the changes
and the developments that werecoming through from the Ministry
of Education, wanting to be ontop of the new reporting
strategies or structuredliteracy or whatever the, um,
the new sort of programs thatwere coming through from the
Ministry, it was staying on topof that work load. And then I
(06:21):
think for a lot of principals,especially maybe the less
experienced ones was thatwork-life balance and finding
their role as a leader andbuilding that leadership kete
that allowed them to manage thehuge variety of the job. And so
there's variety for everyprincipal, there's variety
within the role and then therewas the massive variety I found
across primary secondary, um,intermediate schools and then
(06:44):
across the size, you know, verysmall rural primary schools,
through to urban, big urbanschools.
Eleisha (06:50):
Melissa, do you find same?
Melissa (06:52):
Absolutely and I think the matter is that it is a
demanding role and no two daysare the same so you never can
predict what's going to happenon a daily basis, and it's about
establishing that supportnetwork and reaching out. Um, so
often, you know, principals willphone and you just don't know
what that need or support'sgoing to be, um, so it's being
(07:15):
able to be readily available.
Eleisha (07:17):
Yeah.
Melissa (07:17):
And it can be experienced or beginning
principals as well
Eleisha (07:21):
Yeah, for sure. Phil and Amy?
Phil (07:23):
They're all really varied as the others have said but as a
general rule some of the newerprincipals would ask questions
relating to the technical sideof the role whether it was
staffing funding sort of thosequestions and the more
experienced principals wouldoften call and get a bit of a
steer on government direction oryou know take a kind of a more a
1 to 2 to 3 year view and askquestions relating to that but
(07:45):
but you know as the others havesaid it was so varied because it,
no matter how long you've beendoing the role you just don't
know what's around the cornersometimes so yeah it was really
quite surprising just the variednature of all the requests.
Amy (07:59):
I think the other thing I would add to that is as
principals become moreexperienced, they're looking
more and more to really have acritical friend where they can
check their thinking, they cantalk through a strategic
challenge and how they'relooking at addressing it and
just have the opportunity to runit by someone else and get some
(08:21):
input and or an honestconversation around actually,
here's some things you mightlike to look at before you
before you head off that way. Ithink that's one of the nicest
things about having some of uswho are in the role for multiple
years is because it does taketime to build relationships and
to build both credibility andtrust because some of those
(08:42):
conversations are confidentialby their nature.
Eleisha (08:45):
Oh yeah, 100%. Uhm, and you alluded to something there.
How, how do you balance beingsupportive versus being honest
when a principal just kind ofneeds to hear, some hard truths?
Jackie?
Jackie (09:01):
I, I don't think being supportive and being honest are
mutually exclusive, I thinkthey're both really important
and, you know, quoting BreneBrown, you need to be clear to
be kind and so being havingthose constructive conversations
is you cannot be supportive ifyou're not having them. Uh, and
I think it's about building thattrust and building that
relationship, uh, to a pointwhere, you know, you are able to
(09:24):
have that honest conversation,but I think it's also the
principal understanding that youare coming from a place of no
judgment, you're authentic. They,uh, they may not know you well,
but they can trust your approachand your experience. And they
know that you're coming from aplace of care and you really
want them to succeed. And so youcan, you can, you can be honest
(09:45):
and you can be, um, constructivein your approach if they know
that you are coming from a placethat really wants to support
them and help them grow asprofessionals.
Phil (09:55):
and I was just I'll just add to that I think that
principals recognize thatbecause they do it all day with
their own teams, they do it withtheir SLT and their staff, so
you know as leadership advisorsthey're quite well practiced in
being able to ride that finebalance between being supportive
and honest and so I think that'syou know when you're giving that
feedback to principals who arelooking for support they
(10:17):
recognise that and appreciatethat they're ultimately looking
for a constructive answer, a wayforward so that I've always
found they're very open to it.
Amy (10:24):
I think if principals just want somebody to hold their hand
and say you've had a really hardday hopefully they have a good
friend or spouse who can do thatfor them. That's not our role.
Melissa (10:36):
Yeah, and I think that's, we come with the lens of
we're wanting the best for thestudents and tamariki as well.
So we're open to having thosecourageous conversations if we
know they're going to improve ormake a difference for our
students and communities, weserve, or the principals serve.
Eleisha (10:53):
Yeah, and can you give me an example of the kinds of
problems that you've beenhelping principals with recently?
Melissa (11:03):
Yeah, I've got one. I've been supporting as school,
a rural community. So you know,it's quite interweaved with
being a small community and notagreeing sometimes with the
principal, the school'sdecisions made and that's
causing friction inrelationships. So you're working
alongside the principal and theBoard of Trustees just to
(11:26):
realign expectations, roles andresponsibilities and get some
clarity and shared direction andvision for the community. And
through working alongside theprincipals, we're empowering
them to feel confident enough tohave those courageous
conversations as well, which hasbeen having a positive impact
(11:46):
and that's been developed overtime. So it's not just one visit
stop shop. Yeah,
Amy (11:52):
I can say something. I'd like to give a little nod to our
numerous acting principalsbecause they are often thrust
into that position in an awkwardway. We know that principalship
is hard and that there areprincipals sometimes who need to
take a break for various reasons,and sometimes acting principals
(12:16):
step up in an emergencysituation and sometimes it's a
planned situation. But howeverit happens they're often,
especially in small schools,taken from being a classroom
practitioner into schoolleadership and there isn't a
beginning principal program inplace for them. I find I've
worked with a number of actingprincipals and in particular
(12:37):
supporting them through what's acombination of a strategic and a
technical challenge. One examplethat I can talk about in
particular is with a coupleschools I've been working
through their attendanceprocesses because as we know the
government is really keen onthat 80% of students attending
90% or better and so to helpthem to really understand what's
(13:00):
what's required of them as aschool legislatively and also to
think strategically about howthey might address some of the
real challenges we have ingetting our young people to
school every day. So that's beenquite rewarding for me to see
that we can actually make ameasurable difference - you can
look at the numbers and you goyeah actually we're doing these
things as a team and it isimproving attendance
Eleisha (13:22):
Great. And you would use your own experiences as kind
of examples or ways to guidethem through the problems that
they're having?
Phil (13:33):
I mean I think personally that's the magic of the role is
that each of the leadershipadvisors have been principals so
they're able to draw on theirown experience when being
principals through so you know Ithink it's really critical I've
found to be able to shareexperiences and times where you
had a similar challenge that,they're very rarely the same
challenge, but there's alwayssome similarities and common
(13:55):
themes that run through allthese challenges so being able
to draw on that provides a lotof credibility and also helps
the principal understand thatyou know it's not a unique
situation that it probably hashappened before and that you
know there is an end in sight aswell because you're able to show
how you got through it.
Jackie (14:14):
It will be all right in the end. I think, you know,
we're all living proof that youcan live through the most
dreadful dark times and you willcome out the other side. Um, and
I think sometimes it can bequite, it can be a very lonely
job and you can feel like no oneelse, you know, can understand
and I think the leadershipadvisor understanding the
(14:34):
loneliness of it and thehardness is, is really, um,
valuable. But just going back toyour earlier question, Eleisha,
I think one of the strengths ofthe leadership advisor is being
able to link up other principals.So it's not always about us
being
Eleisha (14:46):
Yeah
Jackie (14:47):
involved in the mix. So I really enjoyed, you know,
being able to say to a principal,look, is it okay, can I pass
your name on to anotherprincipal because you're both
dealing with similar things oryou're six months ahead of a
program they're trying toinitiate or you're, you're
further down the changemanagement line than this other
principal and would it be okayto share your story? And so you
could link up principals whothen actually could be supports
(15:11):
and critical friends for eachother and you could step away
from that and know that you'dleft colleagues a bit stronger
and better connected becausesometimes they're so busy in
their own mahi, they don't havetime to actually connect with
others who maybe are doing, youknow, similar, similar programs
or going through a similarchange management process. So
(15:31):
that I think was one of the thestrengths was as a leadership
advisor you had a really goodpicture across the rohe of what
was happening in different kura,who was doing what and you could
say, hey, you need to talk toso-and-so and you could link
people up.
Eleisha (15:48):
Yeah, definitely. What makes the New Zealand Leadership
Advisory Service unique comparedwith some of the other forms of
professional development andmentoring that principals might
be able to get, Amy?
Amy (16:00):
Well, I don't I mean I haven't been all over the world
but I would say that what'sreally unique about the New
Zealand context of education isthat schools are self-governing
and I think that's actuallyhugely unusual. And so the
support that leadership adviserscan offer to principals is quite
authentic because we we dounderstand that context in which
the principals are working andwe have been principals so if
(16:21):
you look at many of the otherPLD providers who have, offer
very valuable professionaldevelopment, they they haven't
necessarily been principals,some of them, have but often if
you're looking for governanceprofessional development or
curriculum professionaldevelopment, or you're speaking
to an HR lawyer those peoplehaven't actually sat in the seat
(16:43):
so to speak and so I think thatis quite unique and I I'm not
aware of any other countriesthat have a have a program like
this.
Melissa (16:50):
I agree with Amy. It's that we've you know walked in
the principal's shoes, weunderstand, we know the role we
understand the complexities, thedemands, what's kind of current
and we can be there. And weoffer that flexible support
that's built on that genuinerelationship and trust as well.
Jackie (17:09):
It's a bespoke service. They, you know, you, you can
tailor everything that youprovide to that specific school
principal and context andthey've requested it or they've
initiated it, so it's not like aprogram you might go through and
you find 60% was useful or yougo to a conference and some of
(17:29):
it, you know, you could pick thebits that you needed. This is
hopefully meets your needs ahundred percent because it's
what you've asked for.
Melissa (17:38):
Absolutely. And every visit's tailored, as Jackie says,
to the needs of that principal.So even when we go as leadership
advice into a school, we often,we don't go with an agenda, so
it's using our skills to unpackand work alongside the principal
to solve quite often complexproblems and do some coaching
and mentoring as well
Eleisha (17:59):
Excellent. For principals listening who might
be hesitant to reach out forsupport, what would you want to
tell them about the LeadershipAdvisory Service and the value
it can provide them, Phil?
Phil (18:13):
Look, I think pick up the phone, give them a call and
start with the chat. I think allof that all of the situations
that I dealt with last year veryrarely was it the first phone
call that I had that was the youknow where the issue presented,
it was it was an informal chator a connection at a coffee at a
cluster breakfast or whateverelse, so I think picking up the
phone and just starting with achat will I think help you
(18:36):
understand that the theleadership advisors that are in
the roles are there becausethey've got that experience,
they're keen to help and theyreally are on your side so if
anyone is hesitant to reach outI just encourage them to start a
bit smaller then, just have ahave a brief chat and you don't
have to share everything.
Jackie (18:53):
And I think too, as Phil said, it starts with a
conversation. It's free. You'renot committed to anything. If
you don't like the advice youget or you don't think you're
connecting with the leadershipadvisor, th no harm done.
There's no commitment. It's notmandatory. It's an optional
service that's there for youwhen you need it. And yeah, I
(19:15):
think that's one of itsstrengths.
Eleisha (19:18):
Nothing to lose everything to gain.
Melissa (19:19):
And the role can be really lonely and isolating. So
it's good just as Phil says topick up the phone. Know we're
only a call away. We're there tohelp, we want to walk alongside
you. There's no judgment, wejust want to uplift and build
your leadership capacity.
Amy (19:35):
I think sometimes people are hesitant to phone because
they don't want to admitsometimes even to themselves how
out of their depth they feel atthat moment. And it can feel
quite overwhelming and to admitespecially to a stranger that
things aren't going well now andyou need you need some help
isn't isn't easy particularlyfor people who have obviously
(19:57):
spent their entire career beinghugely competent, or they
wouldn't end up being aprincipal. And so I think it
really is a little bit like aparent teacher conference you as
a teacher in a classroom youwant to call the parent before
there's a problem. So that whenyou do need to talk to them
about an actual issue you'vealready established that
relationship, so I think thebiggest thing I would really
(20:19):
encourage principals to do isreach out to your leadership
advisor when you don't needanything. And and then we can
have a chat and maybe we get,maybe you like us maybe you
don't, and you can call Philbecause he's really nice.
Eleisha (20:30):
Yeah,
Amy (20:31):
But don't don't wait until you really have a challenge to
to start forming thatrelationship.
Melissa (20:37):
And it's the beauty of our role is we are highly
confidential that often we doget those high level
confidential conversations thatwe're there to support because
sometimes there's things youdon't want to unpack with the
network, but you want to justhave that trusting, listening
ear alongside you
Eleisha (20:57):
And how do you become a leadership advisor?
Amy (21:00):
You apply, it's a job you apply like any application. It's
either for recently retiredprincipals or as a secondment
for someone who's currently in aprincipal role in which case
they need to have permissionfrom their board for leave
Eleisha (21:14):
What would you say to someone listening who's thinking
about becoming a leadershipadvisor?
Phil (21:20):
I'd reach out to one of the current leadership advisors
and ask them, you know if I wasthinking about applying again,
reach out and ask what itinvolves, how they got into it,
how they find it. I mean there'squite a few things that need to
line up in order to take therole, you need to be ready
yourself, you need to have aschool that's in the right place,
you need to have a supportiveboard, so I think just kind of
having a chat with theleadership advisor that's
(21:41):
currently doing it and and justgetting their sense on it. It's
a rewarding role that gives youa heck of a lot of perspective
you know you see a lot ofschools in a short time frame
and so for leaders who usuallyare buried in their own context
for the most part it's reallyquite refreshing to come out and
um of your own school and andsort of hover a bit higher for a
(22:01):
while and see what the systemlooks like, so but I think start
with a chat, like with likewe've said it's pretty low risks
to start with a chat whetheryou're asking for support or
looking for you know to take therole so that would be my advice
just pick up the phone and seewhat it's about.
Eleisha (22:16):
Jackie.
Jackie (22:17):
Yeah, look how I would agree. Talk to a current
leadership advisor. You get areal insight into the workings
of Te Mahau and the Ministry ofEducation, and I think that's
hugely valuable for anyprincipal. And as Phil said,
getting that high level view ofthe sector, and for me as a
secondary principal, workingwith lots of primary principals
(22:38):
was absolutely fabulous.Wonderful professional
development. Wonderful to seethe links from year 1 through to
year 13, and then working,especially with principals of
small rural schools, it reallygave you a much broader
understanding of thecommonalities, and the
differences between differentkura.
Eleisha (22:56):
Yeah. Melissa.
Melissa (22:58):
Yeah, it's a really privileged role, and it is as
Phil said really rewarding aswell. Just being able to work
alongside principals, andespecially over a period of time
and see their growth in theirleadership and the impact
they're having in their schoolsand community.
Eleisha (23:15):
Amy.
Amy (23:16):
I think everything everyone has said is it really resonates
with me, but I would say that itis an incredible privilege to be
a leadership advisor andcertainly I have received much
more than I have given in myrole and the learning that I've
done has really been the bestprofessional development I've
ever had. In particular, whatJackie said resonated with me as
(23:36):
a secondary principal I have amuch better understanding of
what the compulsory sector lookslike as a whole, so I'm really
am quite grateful for thatopportunity
Melissa (23:46):
It's a fabulous service and a fabulous support. And if
you're principal listening, justreach out, phone, even if it's
not, even if you don't needanything, just a cup of tea or
coffee and just chew some fat,fabulous to have someone there.
And we're in your corner,backing you, walking alongside
you.
Eleisha (24:03):
That's awesome. Well, thank you all so much for your
time today. I really appreciateit.
Jackie (24:08):
All right. Take care.
Eleisha (24:09):
Thanks. Thank you. In the next episode, we're going to
start talking about managingchange. See you then.
Kia ora, and welcome to The Principals, a podcast series
for aspiring and current tumuakiin Aotearoa New Zealand. I'm
Eleisha McNeill. What if youcould pick up the phone and
speak to someone who's walked inyour shoes as a principal? That
is exactly what the leadershipadvisory service offers. It's a
unique support system whereexperienced principles provide
(00:30):
one-on-one guidance to theircolleagues across the country.
And today I have threeleadership advisors with me.
I'll let them introducethemselves.
Jackie (00:39):
Kia ora koutou, ko Jackie Barron tōku ingoa, te
tumuaki o Te Kura O Hira Tapu,uh, Jackie Barron, I'm the
Principal of St. Hilda'sCollegiate in Dunedin. I've been
in that role for 11 years, andI've been a principal for 16
years.
Eleisha (00:52):
And you were a leadership advisor too, eh.
Jackie (00:54):
Yeah,
Eleisha (00:54):
Yep.
Jackie (00:55):
sorry
Eleisha (00:55):
Yeah. Thank you, Melissa.
Melissa (00:57):
Ko Melissa Anderton tōku ingoa, um, Leadership
Advisor for Otago Southland.This is my second year as
Leadership Advisor. Previous tothat I was principal at Te Kuiti
Primary School in the KingCountry, um, and have about ten
years principal experience.
Eleisha (01:13):
Awesome. Thank you, Phil.
Phil (01:14):
Kia ora, I'm Phil Toomer, I'm principal at Meadowbank
School, a primary school inAuckland. I've been here for
seven years. been principal intotal for 11 years, and was a
leadership advisor last year in2024. 24.
Eleisha (01:26):
Thank you, Amy.
Amy (01:28):
Kia ora, ko Amy Hacker ahau. I am a leadership advisor for
the Waikato, currently based inHamilton. I have been a
secondary principal and I havehad numerous years, I don't want
to count them up, of leadershipexperience in secondary schools
both in New Zealand and abroad.
Eleisha (01:48):
Fantastic. Thank you all for joining me today. We'll
start by asking a really basicquestion. Can you please tell me
what the leadership advisoryservice is and what leadership
advisors can offer? Maybe Amy ifyou want to start.
Amy (02:02):
Sure, the Leadership Advisory Service came out of the
Tomorrow's School review and itis a service for principals by
principals that supports theleadership needs of principals
who are currently in the seat.So the idea is that those of us
with recent principal experiencecan support our colleagues in
both strategic leadership andwhat I find is also more just
(02:27):
general leadership challengesthat might come across
principals' tables. So there arecurrently 16 of us across the
country and that LeadershipAdvisory Service will be doubled
in 2026 and beyond
Eleisha (02:38):
That's fantastic. So if a principal finds themselves in
a situation that they're justnot a hundred percent sure how
to deal with or what to do with,what does the initial
conversation with the leadershipadvisor look like? Melissa.
Melissa (02:54):
So the first conversation's just really about
making that connection andbuilding that relationship. So
it might be scheduling a visitto the school and just really
getting an understanding of aschool context. And we just want
to listen and have openquestions and just be supportive
to the principals we're wantingto support.
Eleisha (03:15):
That's great. And what happens after that initial
conversation, Phil?
Phil (03:20):
I mean, I think the service is really flexible. So
some, some calls that come inare pretty quick, um, quick
answers, and they don't take allthat long to, sort of resolve
but some other, some otherissues do continue on for, for
many conversations or manyvisits. So I think it really
does depend on the, the contentand the nature of the, of the
support. Uh, you know, veryoften after an issue is kind of
(03:42):
resolved or we thought we've gotan outcome and the leadership
advisor will give the principalcall back and follow up and see
whether there's still somesupport that's needed so...
because it's an on-call, um,support that's designed to be
super flexible, I think that thenumber of convos, the type of
convos they're all super variedand really responsive to exactly
what that principal needs.
Eleisha (03:59):
Amy.
Amy (04:00):
I know that a lot of the support we offer is people, at
least I offer, is, uh,principals who are in their
first three to five years ofprincipalship because here in
New Zealand, we've got thebeginning principals program for
the first three years. And thenwe say, off you go, you're
fledged. And what is really niceabout the leadership advisory is
that they have that ongoingsupport, so that there's a
gradual release, uhm, and, youknow, and, as Phil was saying, a
(04:22):
lot of times principals willcome to us with a specific
leadership challenge. But thereare other times to be honest,
where one of the educationadvisors will say, 'Hey, Amy,
you know, I was just, I was justvisiting with this principal in
X and such a place. Do you thinkyou can go have a chat with
her?' She's experiencing asignificant amount of
professional isolation, or she'sgotten off-sides with her board,
or she's got a, you know, acommunity, uhm, challenge going
(04:45):
on. And, and so part of our roleis a little bit like being
therapists, where sometimes it,it is important just to have
someone listen, who, who hassome understanding of what it
might feel like to be in thatseat
Eleisha (04:59):
Yeah, yeah, it's such an important service. So, Jackie,
what are some of the most commonchallenges or situations that
principals will bring to aleadership advisor? And do they
differ between new principalsand experienced principals?
Jackie (05:14):
Oh, look, they, they differ right across the rohe
really, and it might be, um,experienced and inexperienced
principals, it might teachingprincipals in a small primary
school, have very differentissues to a principal of a
school of, say, 2000 students,and a very large staff. Um, so
in my role, I found that a lotof the, uh, principals they were
(05:35):
often around relational issuesand relationships might be, um,
a principal having trouble withtheir board, it might be
conflict on the staff, it mightbe conflict with a parent or
issues within the community. Um,and so often a lot of the issues
seem to be relational and aroundmanaging people, uh, and that
kind of, HR kind of issue, uh,and I think sometimes the other
(05:59):
issues that principals weremanaging or trying to manage was
the work load and stayingabreast of the, of the changes
and the developments that werecoming through from the Ministry
of Education, wanting to be ontop of the new reporting
strategies or structuredliteracy or whatever the, um,
the new sort of programs thatwere coming through from the
Ministry, it was staying on topof that work load. And then I
(06:21):
think for a lot of principals,especially maybe the less
experienced ones was thatwork-life balance and finding
their role as a leader andbuilding that leadership kete
that allowed them to manage thehuge variety of the job. And so
there's variety for everyprincipal, there's variety
within the role and then therewas the massive variety I found
across primary secondary, um,intermediate schools and then
(06:44):
across the size, you know, verysmall rural primary schools,
through to urban, big urbanschools.
Eleisha (06:50):
Melissa, do you find same?
Melissa (06:52):
Absolutely and I think the matter is that it is a
demanding role and no two daysare the same so you never can
predict what's going to happenon a daily basis, and it's about
establishing that supportnetwork and reaching out. Um, so
often, you know, principals willphone and you just don't know
what that need or support'sgoing to be, um, so it's being
(07:15):
able to be readily available.
Eleisha (07:17):
Yeah.
Melissa (07:17):
And it can be experienced or beginning
principals as well
Eleisha (07:21):
Yeah, for sure. Phil and Amy?
Phil (07:23):
They're all really varied as the others have said but as a
general rule some of the newerprincipals would ask questions
relating to the technical sideof the role whether it was
staffing funding sort of thosequestions and the more
experienced principals wouldoften call and get a bit of a
steer on government direction oryou know take a kind of a more a
1 to 2 to 3 year view and askquestions relating to that but
(07:45):
but you know as the others havesaid it was so varied because it,
no matter how long you've beendoing the role you just don't
know what's around the cornersometimes so yeah it was really
quite surprising just the variednature of all the requests.
Amy (07:59):
I think the other thing I would add to that is as
principals become moreexperienced, they're looking
more and more to really have acritical friend where they can
check their thinking, they cantalk through a strategic
challenge and how they'relooking at addressing it and
just have the opportunity to runit by someone else and get some
(08:21):
input and or an honestconversation around actually,
here's some things you mightlike to look at before you
before you head off that way. Ithink that's one of the nicest
things about having some of uswho are in the role for multiple
years is because it does taketime to build relationships and
to build both credibility andtrust because some of those
(08:42):
conversations are confidentialby their nature.
Eleisha (08:45):
Oh yeah, 100%. Uhm, and you alluded to something there.
How, how do you balance beingsupportive versus being honest
when a principal just kind ofneeds to hear, some hard truths?
Jackie?
Jackie (09:01):
I, I don't think being supportive and being honest are
mutually exclusive, I thinkthey're both really important
and, you know, quoting BreneBrown, you need to be clear to
be kind and so being havingthose constructive conversations
is you cannot be supportive ifyou're not having them. Uh, and
I think it's about building thattrust and building that
relationship, uh, to a pointwhere, you know, you are able to
(09:24):
have that honest conversation,but I think it's also the
principal understanding that youare coming from a place of no
judgment, you're authentic. They,uh, they may not know you well,
but they can trust your approachand your experience. And they
know that you're coming from aplace of care and you really
want them to succeed. And so youcan, you can, you can be honest
(09:45):
and you can be, um, constructivein your approach if they know
that you are coming from a placethat really wants to support
them and help them grow asprofessionals.
Phil (09:55):
and I was just I'll just add to that I think that
principals recognize thatbecause they do it all day with
their own teams, they do it withtheir SLT and their staff, so
you know as leadership advisorsthey're quite well practiced in
being able to ride that finebalance between being supportive
and honest and so I think that'syou know when you're giving that
feedback to principals who arelooking for support they
(10:17):
recognise that and appreciatethat they're ultimately looking
for a constructive answer, a wayforward so that I've always
found they're very open to it.
Amy (10:24):
I think if principals just want somebody to hold their hand
and say you've had a really hardday hopefully they have a good
friend or spouse who can do thatfor them. That's not our role.
Melissa (10:36):
Yeah, and I think that's, we come with the lens of
we're wanting the best for thestudents and tamariki as well.
So we're open to having thosecourageous conversations if we
know they're going to improve ormake a difference for our
students and communities, weserve, or the principals serve.
Eleisha (10:53):
Yeah, and can you give me an example of the kinds of
problems that you've beenhelping principals with recently?
Melissa (11:03):
Yeah, I've got one. I've been supporting as school,
a rural community. So you know,it's quite interweaved with
being a small community and notagreeing sometimes with the
principal, the school'sdecisions made and that's
causing friction inrelationships. So you're working
alongside the principal and theBoard of Trustees just to
(11:26):
realign expectations, roles andresponsibilities and get some
clarity and shared direction andvision for the community. And
through working alongside theprincipals, we're empowering
them to feel confident enough tohave those courageous
conversations as well, which hasbeen having a positive impact
(11:46):
and that's been developed overtime. So it's not just one visit
stop shop. Yeah,
Amy (11:52):
I can say something. I'd like to give a little nod to our
numerous acting principalsbecause they are often thrust
into that position in an awkwardway. We know that principalship
is hard and that there areprincipals sometimes who need to
take a break for various reasons,and sometimes acting principals
(12:16):
step up in an emergencysituation and sometimes it's a
planned situation. But howeverit happens they're often,
especially in small schools,taken from being a classroom
practitioner into schoolleadership and there isn't a
beginning principal program inplace for them. I find I've
worked with a number of actingprincipals and in particular
(12:37):
supporting them through what's acombination of a strategic and a
technical challenge. One examplethat I can talk about in
particular is with a coupleschools I've been working
through their attendanceprocesses because as we know the
government is really keen onthat 80% of students attending
90% or better and so to helpthem to really understand what's
(13:00):
what's required of them as aschool legislatively and also to
think strategically about howthey might address some of the
real challenges we have ingetting our young people to
school every day. So that's beenquite rewarding for me to see
that we can actually make ameasurable difference - you can
look at the numbers and you goyeah actually we're doing these
things as a team and it isimproving attendance
Eleisha (13:22):
Great. And you would use your own experiences as kind
of examples or ways to guidethem through the problems that
they're having?
Phil (13:33):
I mean I think personally that's the magic of the role is
that each of the leadershipadvisors have been principals so
they're able to draw on theirown experience when being
principals through so you know Ithink it's really critical I've
found to be able to shareexperiences and times where you
had a similar challenge that,they're very rarely the same
challenge, but there's alwayssome similarities and common
(13:55):
themes that run through allthese challenges so being able
to draw on that provides a lotof credibility and also helps
the principal understand thatyou know it's not a unique
situation that it probably hashappened before and that you
know there is an end in sight aswell because you're able to show
how you got through it.
Jackie (14:14):
It will be all right in the end. I think, you know,
we're all living proof that youcan live through the most
dreadful dark times and you willcome out the other side. Um, and
I think sometimes it can bequite, it can be a very lonely
job and you can feel like no oneelse, you know, can understand
and I think the leadershipadvisor understanding the
(14:34):
loneliness of it and thehardness is, is really, um,
valuable. But just going back toyour earlier question, Eleisha,
I think one of the strengths ofthe leadership advisor is being
able to link up other principals.So it's not always about us
being
Eleisha (14:46):
Yeah
Jackie (14:47):
involved in the mix. So I really enjoyed, you know,
being able to say to a principal,look, is it okay, can I pass
your name on to anotherprincipal because you're both
dealing with similar things oryou're six months ahead of a
program they're trying toinitiate or you're, you're
further down the changemanagement line than this other
principal and would it be okayto share your story? And so you
could link up principals whothen actually could be supports
(15:11):
and critical friends for eachother and you could step away
from that and know that you'dleft colleagues a bit stronger
and better connected becausesometimes they're so busy in
their own mahi, they don't havetime to actually connect with
others who maybe are doing, youknow, similar, similar programs
or going through a similarchange management process. So
(15:31):
that I think was one of the thestrengths was as a leadership
advisor you had a really goodpicture across the rohe of what
was happening in different kura,who was doing what and you could
say, hey, you need to talk toso-and-so and you could link
people up.
Eleisha (15:48):
Yeah, definitely. What makes the New Zealand Leadership
Advisory Service unique comparedwith some of the other forms of
professional development andmentoring that principals might
be able to get, Amy?
Amy (16:00):
Well, I don't I mean I haven't been all over the world
but I would say that what'sreally unique about the New
Zealand context of education isthat schools are self-governing
and I think that's actuallyhugely unusual. And so the
support that leadership adviserscan offer to principals is quite
authentic because we we dounderstand that context in which
the principals are working andwe have been principals so if
(16:21):
you look at many of the otherPLD providers who have, offer
very valuable professionaldevelopment, they they haven't
necessarily been principals,some of them, have but often if
you're looking for governanceprofessional development or
curriculum professionaldevelopment, or you're speaking
to an HR lawyer those peoplehaven't actually sat in the seat
(16:43):
so to speak and so I think thatis quite unique and I I'm not
aware of any other countriesthat have a have a program like
this.
Melissa (16:50):
I agree with Amy. It's that we've you know walked in
the principal's shoes, weunderstand, we know the role we
understand the complexities, thedemands, what's kind of current
and we can be there. And weoffer that flexible support
that's built on that genuinerelationship and trust as well.
Jackie (17:09):
It's a bespoke service. They, you know, you, you can
tailor everything that youprovide to that specific school
principal and context andthey've requested it or they've
initiated it, so it's not like aprogram you might go through and
you find 60% was useful or yougo to a conference and some of
(17:29):
it, you know, you could pick thebits that you needed. This is
hopefully meets your needs ahundred percent because it's
what you've asked for.
Melissa (17:38):
Absolutely. And every visit's tailored, as Jackie says,
to the needs of that principal.So even when we go as leadership
advice into a school, we often,we don't go with an agenda, so
it's using our skills to unpackand work alongside the principal
to solve quite often complexproblems and do some coaching
and mentoring as well
Eleisha (17:59):
Excellent. For principals listening who might
be hesitant to reach out forsupport, what would you want to
tell them about the LeadershipAdvisory Service and the value
it can provide them, Phil?
Phil (18:13):
Look, I think pick up the phone, give them a call and
start with the chat. I think allof that all of the situations
that I dealt with last year veryrarely was it the first phone
call that I had that was the youknow where the issue presented,
it was it was an informal chator a connection at a coffee at a
cluster breakfast or whateverelse, so I think picking up the
phone and just starting with achat will I think help you
(18:36):
understand that the theleadership advisors that are in
the roles are there becausethey've got that experience,
they're keen to help and theyreally are on your side so if
anyone is hesitant to reach outI just encourage them to start a
bit smaller then, just have ahave a brief chat and you don't
have to share everything.
Jackie (18:53):
And I think too, as Phil said, it starts with a
conversation. It's free. You'renot committed to anything. If
you don't like the advice youget or you don't think you're
connecting with the leadershipadvisor, th no harm done.
There's no commitment. It's notmandatory. It's an optional
service that's there for youwhen you need it. And yeah, I
(19:15):
think that's one of itsstrengths.
Eleisha (19:18):
Nothing to lose everything to gain.
Melissa (19:19):
And the role can be really lonely and isolating. So
it's good just as Phil says topick up the phone. Know we're
only a call away. We're there tohelp, we want to walk alongside
you. There's no judgment, wejust want to uplift and build
your leadership capacity.
Amy (19:35):
I think sometimes people are hesitant to phone because
they don't want to admitsometimes even to themselves how
out of their depth they feel atthat moment. And it can feel
quite overwhelming and to admitespecially to a stranger that
things aren't going well now andyou need you need some help
isn't isn't easy particularlyfor people who have obviously
(19:57):
spent their entire career beinghugely competent, or they
wouldn't end up being aprincipal. And so I think it
really is a little bit like aparent teacher conference you as
a teacher in a classroom youwant to call the parent before
there's a problem. So that whenyou do need to talk to them
about an actual issue you'vealready established that
relationship, so I think thebiggest thing I would really
(20:19):
encourage principals to do isreach out to your leadership
advisor when you don't needanything. And and then we can
have a chat and maybe we get,maybe you like us maybe you
don't, and you can call Philbecause he's really nice.
Eleisha (20:30):
Yeah,
Amy (20:31):
But don't don't wait until you really have a challenge to
to start forming thatrelationship.
Melissa (20:37):
And it's the beauty of our role is we are highly
confidential that often we doget those high level
confidential conversations thatwe're there to support because
sometimes there's things youdon't want to unpack with the
network, but you want to justhave that trusting, listening
ear alongside you
Eleisha (20:57):
And how do you become a leadership advisor?
Amy (21:00):
You apply, it's a job you apply like any application. It's
either for recently retiredprincipals or as a secondment
for someone who's currently in aprincipal role in which case
they need to have permissionfrom their board for leave
Eleisha (21:14):
What would you say to someone listening who's thinking
about becoming a leadershipadvisor?
Phil (21:20):
I'd reach out to one of the current leadership advisors
and ask them, you know if I wasthinking about applying again,
reach out and ask what itinvolves, how they got into it,
how they find it. I mean there'squite a few things that need to
line up in order to take therole, you need to be ready
yourself, you need to have aschool that's in the right place,
you need to have a supportiveboard, so I think just kind of
having a chat with theleadership advisor that's
(21:41):
currently doing it and and justgetting their sense on it. It's
a rewarding role that gives youa heck of a lot of perspective
you know you see a lot ofschools in a short time frame
and so for leaders who usuallyare buried in their own context
for the most part it's reallyquite refreshing to come out and
um of your own school and andsort of hover a bit higher for a
(22:01):
while and see what the systemlooks like, so but I think start
with a chat, like with likewe've said it's pretty low risks
to start with a chat whetheryou're asking for support or
looking for you know to take therole so that would be my advice
just pick up the phone and seewhat it's about.
Eleisha (22:16):
Jackie.
Jackie (22:17):
Yeah, look how I would agree. Talk to a current
leadership advisor. You get areal insight into the workings
of Te Mahau and the Ministry ofEducation, and I think that's
hugely valuable for anyprincipal. And as Phil said,
getting that high level view ofthe sector, and for me as a
secondary principal, workingwith lots of primary principals
(22:38):
was absolutely fabulous.Wonderful professional
development. Wonderful to seethe links from year 1 through to
year 13, and then working,especially with principals of
small rural schools, it reallygave you a much broader
understanding of thecommonalities, and the
differences between differentkura.
Eleisha (22:56):
Yeah. Melissa.
Melissa (22:58):
Yeah, it's a really privileged role, and it is as
Phil said really rewarding aswell. Just being able to work
alongside principals, andespecially over a period of time
and see their growth in theirleadership and the impact
they're having in their schoolsand community.
Eleisha (23:15):
Amy.
Amy (23:16):
I think everything everyone has said is it really resonates
with me, but I would say that itis an incredible privilege to be
a leadership advisor andcertainly I have received much
more than I have given in myrole and the learning that I've
done has really been the bestprofessional development I've
ever had. In particular, whatJackie said resonated with me as
(23:36):
a secondary principal I have amuch better understanding of
what the compulsory sector lookslike as a whole, so I'm really
am quite grateful for thatopportunity
Melissa (23:46):
It's a fabulous service and a fabulous support. And if
you're principal listening, justreach out, phone, even if it's
not, even if you don't needanything, just a cup of tea or
coffee and just chew some fat,fabulous to have someone there.
And we're in your corner,backing you, walking alongside
you.
Eleisha (24:03):
That's awesome. Well, thank you all so much for your
time today. I really appreciateit.
Jackie (24:08):
All right. Take care.
Eleisha (24:09):
Thanks. Thank you. In the next episode, we're going to
start talking about managingchange. See you then.
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